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At the edge of collapse—and creation—two unlikely co-conspirators invite you into a radically honest conversation about the future. This isn’t just another tech or self-help podcast. It’s a story-driven exploration of who we are, what we value, and how we might reimagine the world when the systems around us stop serving us. We blend personal storytelling, cultural critique, and deep inquiry into what it means to be human in an age of AI, uncertainty, and transformation. We’re asking better questions—together.
Because the world is changing fast, but maybe that’s precisely what we need.
Hosted by Beth Rudden and Katie Smith, two builders of systems and challengers of the status quo. Beth is CEO of Bast.AI and a globally recognized expert in trustworthy AI, with decades of experience leading data and ethics at IBM. Katie is the founder of Humma.AI, a strategist who drove innovation and revenue growth at major global brands before turning to human rights and technology for social good. Together, they make complex issues, such as AI and its impacts on everyday people, clear, personal, and impossible to ignore.
Beth Rudden is the CEO and Founder of Bast AI, a pioneering company building explainable, personalized AI for good. With over two decades of experience as a global executive and Distinguished Engineer at IBM, Beth blends anthropology, data science, and AI governance to create tools that amplify human dignity and intelligence—not replace it.
Her work spans healthcare, education, and workforce transformation, using ontological natural language understanding (NLU) to make AI transparent, accountable, and accessible. Through Bast AI, Beth is reimagining how organizations deploy AI that’s not only accurate but aligned with ethical values, cultural context, and cognitive well-being.
Beth is also the author of AI for the Rest of Us and a passionate advocate for AI literacy, epistemic diversity, and the right to understand the systems shaping our lives. She speaks globally on the future of AI, power, and social contracts—and believes we’re all stewards of the next intelligence.
Katie Smith is the CEO and Founder of Humma.AI, a privacy-first platform building community-powered, culturally competent AI. With over two decades of experience leading digital strategy and social innovation, Katie blends systems thinking, Responsible AI, and storytelling to create tools that serve dignity, not domination. Their work spans mental health, civic tech, and digital rights, using participatory AI to make systems safer, fairer, and more accountable. Through Humma.AI, Katie is reimagining how people and businesses engage AI that’s accurate, inclusive, and governed by consent and care. Katie is also the author of Zoe Bios: The Epigenetics of Terrorism, a provocative exploration of identity, trauma, and transformation. They speak globally on the future of technology, power, and justice—and believe human empathy is the intelligence that will define our time.
Subscribe to our Substack for bonus content: https://substack.com/@andwefeelfine
Beth Rudden (00:13)
Hi, I'm Beth Rudden, CEO of Bast.ai. We're here to talk about endings and beginnings on And We Feel Fine How are you feeling today, Katie?
Katie Smith (00:22)
I am feeling sad and hope at the same time, some sense of resolve. You know, I've been around, you know, born and raised in Angelino. And as we're recording this, there's ICE raids happening in schools and on the street. And, you know, we're a community of immigrants over here. I mean, the whole United States is, but, you know, Los Angeles has
a very significant population of immigrants. so, yeah, my heart goes out to the families that are being impacted. know, people who were watching their kids graduate and got pulled in or, you know, had to run away for fear that, you know, that they could get taken by ICE.
⁓ I'm proud of the Los Angeles Unified School District Superintendent who's basically taken a stand like we stand for our families, like these kids deserve to graduate. These parents deserve to watch their kids graduate, but it's heartbreaking because we all know that this is a manufactured crisis.
Beth Rudden (01:31)
Well.
Katie Smith (01:31)
there's
no reason for these people to be here. This is like, it could be against the law. We're going to take them to court. have, you know, I have opinions about that, but ⁓ this is, this, we did not request the National Guard.
Beth Rudden (01:45)
Well, it's, I think I read somewhere there's like 75,000 police in LA and that is more than enough. history of the National Guard entering into this, I have a lot of things to say about that, but I think that,
I'll start off with one of my stories. I met ⁓ and was talking to an Uber driver who is from Ethiopia. And I was having a conversation with him on my way back home from downtown Denver. ⁓ we got into just, I was asking him, was like, what do you think about the current political situation? He has a very thick accent and had come from war torn.
places and saw lots of people die. And what he loved about the United States is he was his ability to have freedom of religion and practice the religion of his choice. he's like, you I really, he goes, I, he goes, I don't know if this is good or not, but I want to tell you, you know, I voted for Trump because he was the one that allowed me to have that freedom of religion. And he said, well, actually, did you know that you can vote for your local sheriff and your local judges in
Aurora, Colorado. And he's like, what? And I go, yeah, the federal government typically doesn't really get involved in freedom of religion and anything like that. That's the principles by which we live by. That is our country. That is why many immigrants have come to this country, because you're living the American dream. You're able to make a living. You're paying taxes. You're very, very. And he goes, yeah, but all those other people, all those other immigrants, they're not.
You know, they're coming and then forcing us to, you know, not have the freedom of religion. And I was like, that's why you have local law enforcement and just that separation and that, that misunderstanding of. elect local sheriffs. elect local judges. We have local police forces who have context and families and communities in the ground. And that's why it's, it's really devastating for the national guard to have to.
turn on themselves. They are the first to secure the military scene and the last to leave. So when my husband was deployed as a National Guardsman, he was the first to Iraq as the National Guard to secure the scene and the last to leave to make sure all of the soldiers in the United States exits the premise. And if you're doing that on your own soil, you have a pretty major conflict of interest because your specialists like your medics, your pilots, your ⁓
Your people who are actively working in your hospitals, actively working at your fire stations, actively working to put out the fires and to make sure that crowd control is there, those are the people who make up the National Guard. And one weekend a month, two weeks a year, these are human beings that are very much part of the community. so I just, I wanna...
Katie Smith (05:00)
Yes.
Beth Rudden (05:03)
I like that story because it really was the misunderstanding of who's accountable for freedom of religion and who is on the front line of that and who should be called. And himself as an immigrant doesn't understand the politicization of being an immigrant in this entire nation.
of immigrants.
Katie Smith (05:32)
So much about messaging, like how they would think that a different party doesn't allow for freedom of religion. Like that's just what the country is based on. So it's not a party issue. ⁓ That particular issue is not a party issue. don't think I, I think that's fair to say.
Beth Rudden (05:48)
I actually, ⁓ yes, I think that
if you are not Christian or you are not practicing the Christian religion, you are very much an enemy of the state.
Katie Smith (06:03)
Well, sorry, I maybe misunderstood your story. I thought you were saying that the person that you spoke to voted for Trump because he thought Trump was going to give him freedom of religion. And my point was, because he associated Trump with the American government, not necessarily any particular.
Beth Rudden (06:13)
Yes.
heat.
Well, and this gentleman is a Christian and was persecuted in his country for being a Christian and non of Muslim. So he came to the United States to practice his freedom of religion. this is this is. Yes, and this is interesting, though, because, like, first of all, I don't think that that Trump is persona is the God fearing Christian that is not the persona. But there is a definitive
Katie Smith (06:29)
Interesting.
I see. He's aligned with. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (06:50)
And if you're not Christian, I do think that there is a persecution that goes on.
Katie Smith (06:56)
no, absolutely. Religious minorities
are high on the hate crime list, unfortunately. ⁓
Beth Rudden (07:01)
Unfortunately,
they're also the majority, like 47 % of the United States is agnostic or humanist. I digress, but I want it to be very clear, like that there is like, you know, this misunderstanding of what is federal, what is state, what is local. And so if LA has 75,000 police officers, what exactly is 2,000 National Guards?
Katie Smith (07:14)
No!
No, it's symbolic. It's a manufactured crisis, like I was trying to say earlier. So I really like your story about the National Guard. And because these are people from our community, these are not the decision makers, right? So, you know, when I think about what's happening right now, there is a particular person who shall not be named, who is, you know, trying to create something out of nothing. And the worst thing we could possibly do is respond.
Beth Rudden (07:30)
humans gonna have.
They're, yep.
Katie Smith (08:00)
And so I'm very disappointed with some of the violence and the destruction that is happening in the city right now. But I totally understand it. You know, I lived through the 92 uprising. We called an uprising for a reason. You know, these were oppressed communities. know, my girlfriend lived in one of those communities at the time. Like I was a witness to what was happening in those communities to the extent that I could be. And so.
Beth Rudden (08:13)
Mmm.
Katie Smith (08:30)
You know, and this gets me to that topic of migrate, this bigger topic of migration that I wanted to bring up today. And so there's two artists that I wanted to sort of spotlight because I think they do a really good job better than I could at explaining this. So I hope people explore these two artists beyond this podcast. And I'm probably going to do terrible things to their name, but I'm going to do my best. Okay. So Maria Therese Alves.
Her project traces ⁓ seeds through journeys, linking them through the histories of migration and colonization. So, so ballast seeds, right? So ballast seeds got into the rock that balanced the ship. And then once they unloaded the ships, those rocks, you know, were now on land and these seeds that weren't supposed to be here are now here and now living in the land. These species of plants jumped continents because of ships.
right, because of colonization and sometimes occupation. And there's lots of different ways that species have jumped continents, right? And so it's just interesting that like migration has always happened as soon as like we had the technology of ships, like things started jumping good, bad, or indifferent. So that's one way. And I really think that her work, it's called Seeds of Change, is really powerful ⁓ for all of us to sort of just look at and sort of digest.
The other artist is Jenny ⁓ Szczernski, who uses invasive plants to discuss immigration policies and attitudes, highlighting both plants, how plants and people are seen as outsiders, which I think is also very powerful.
Right? As a native Angeleno, we're always trying to protect our native plants. We need more native plants. the irony of that is that we care so much about the native plants because we recognize how important they are to our land and to our culture and to our livelihoods, except where we don't do that to the Tongva people who are the native people of Los Angeles. You know, there's other tribes, but I'm on Tongva land right now. And so ⁓ it just, it's sort of just
Beth Rudden (10:24)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (10:40)
The thing about plants that I think is such a powerful metaphor, and this is why I love these two artists, and Jenny's work uses invasive species as a metaphor, is like...
Migration is fundamental to life on earth. Migration is fundamental to life on earth. So like the lines we have created as humans are political, right? But so I love that you talked about being a Christian. We are for all intents and purposes, we're founded as a Christian nation. And yet, when these people are coming here because
Beth Rudden (11:18)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (11:23)
They're saying they want a better life, just like my ancestors did and the original colonizers did. They thought they were coming here for a better life to expand. Like there was lots of different reasons, but we understood it.
Beth Rudden (11:38)
They are coming here for a better life. And many of the stories that people have, and this is why I think all Americans should travel more. The ability to be able to work and ⁓ pray to any God and to do any work and to be able to create a space for yourself. ⁓
I want to, I know that that is part of the American dream and there are a lot of immigrants that are, it's just, it's a ridiculous notion. And you struck something to think that, you know, people are better when you have different people and different plants and different diversity. And of course humans migrated because seeds, you know, would especially
Katie Smith (12:19)
It is. ⁓
Beth Rudden (12:34)
especially during summer and winter, mean, all of these migratory paths, birds are migratory, humans are migratory, animals are migratory. ⁓ There's too much, there's too, I'm like, is the way of the world. And I love this idea of doing the plants too, and especially with invasive species. And what's interesting about invasive species is, ⁓
Katie Smith (12:53)
It was good.
Beth Rudden (13:04)
you know, the eucalyptus trees in Northern California. That was an invasive species, but everybody's like, ⁓ the smell of Saratoga and the eucalyptus and one generation. It's now part of the culture. it's super. So this is it's just it's fascinating, but it's very devastating for fires because, know, they're fast growing trees with, you know, hollow.
Katie Smith (13:18)
Absolutely. And the butterflies love it too. That's where this one that they're migration spots. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (13:31)
I mean, it's it's fascinating to me that, you yes, a people can bring their seeds, but after one generation, then they become, you know, part of the soil, the natives. And that's where I agree on the arbitrary boundaries. And, you know, there's this picture of, ⁓ it's between Canada and the United States.
And it's just this picture of where they cleared the forest. And it's like 20 feet of forest that they cleared to show this line. And I'm just like, how absurd that we have these lines of demarcation. it's very frustrating, but it's also, don't you think that ⁓ this is an inevitable result of the digital age that doesn't have boundaries or physical boundaries?
Katie Smith (14:29)
I think that's such a good point. know, ⁓ when the Arab rising happened in Egypt, you know, I feel like that was made possible because of the old Twitter and other technologies. And it opened up this conversation to the world and ⁓ it allowed people from outside to sort of help people who are on the inside. And I think that was a fundamental shift in a way. ⁓
Beth Rudden (14:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Smith (14:59)
And I think there is an analogy of that, of what's happening today, because we have people in Los Angeles right now who, know, people who, you know, sister white men, for example, are on the front lines. Some people are just, you know, trying to protect people who have more to lose. Right. So there's some really beautiful things happening. It reminds me of the fires where like Angelenos just like came together. So there's so many good people going out there and doing peaceful protests.
And I feel like that is the only way we win this by the way. And sorry, just to mention one other artist. ⁓ gosh, I'm going to forget Patricia's name. I'll put all this in the footnotes. But if you look up into the sky in Los Angeles, there's the jets that do like, use their little steam to create the words and put a phrase into the sky. And right now it's care, not cages.
And I guess my point is like, look, sure, draw the arbitrary line. We have them all over the world. It's maps. I love maps. Maps are fun. But like what is fundamentally happening right now is just a lack of care. It's just like how they treated Doge. Should criminals be handled? Yes. Should criminals be handled by local authorities? Absolutely. Should criminals be handled by the community and local authorities?
Yes, unless the federal government has a stake on the criminal, stay out of our state, stay out of our city, stay out of it.
Beth Rudden (16:36)
So ⁓ when the National Guard is put on state active duty, which is something that is typically done with like wildfires or like, you know, really cases of natural emergency floods, ⁓ you know, really bad. It's happened obviously a couple of times because we keep having these large natural disasters. And I know that a lot of people have done it.
understand that this is coming up lately, but it's called SAD or state active duty and the pay that the National Guard's people get is actually mandated by the federal government and typically negotiated 20, 30 years ago. So they get paid less when they get put on state active duty. I am not, I am sure somebody can correct me on all of the legalities, but
I knew about the pay thing because, you know, the paychecks are something that we understand in this household. And it is just, I think that it's interesting because there's a lot of people that don't know these like intricacies. I also, I was going to ask you about this because I don't, I am not, you know, connected to the news, but obviously I've heard about this.
Katie Smith (17:41)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (17:59)
much like, you know, my, friend in Germany asked me about, you know, the, Boulder terrorist attacks that happened a couple of weeks ago where, you know, it's just really mentally ill people, ⁓ are, are causing lots of harm. ⁓ and so I was going to ask you, you know, how impacted you were, how close you were and, know, the, the impact where you're on signal threads and you're like,
You know, you're getting from multiple sources that that ICE is or the immigration authority is deporting people and putting people onto buses, onto planes. Where are they going? Like, you know, how do we write? This is. Yeah, this is this is just not.
Katie Smith (18:42)
Detention centers, basically.
But who knows because some authorities like actual elected officials are not able to get into these places to see the quality of care that is happening. So no, this is like all sorts of illegal things are actually happening right now in my city. And, you know, I live very close to Wilshire, the Home Depot right down Wilshire, you know, those workers who are just there who, by the way,
Beth Rudden (18:55)
Right. Right.
Katie Smith (19:13)
are very useful. You can hire them to do things and they're there. You know, lot of those people got picked up. And so I don't know all the details. I'm not going to be here to state the stats. Like that's not what this podcast, at least for me right now, is not about. I really wanted to take this higher level. One, because we have the privilege of this megaphone that is our podcast.
Beth Rudden (19:23)
Mm-hmm.
No, and-
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (19:38)
My younger self would have been in the streets and I've been thinking today, like, why am I not in the streets? Cause I was in the streets for immigrant rights as a teenager. I have been fighting this fight for a good long time here in Los Angeles. And I think what's coming up for me is something that I really hope the political establishment hears.
⁓ don't fight. don't fight in the street. We have to fight this in a courthouse. We, we cannot fight this in the streets. We are not equipped to fight this in the streets. And we have someone who's not following law or morality that's fighting on the other side. This is not a good fight for us. I'm all for peaceful protesting.
but the violence is actually playing right into their hands. We have to do this through legal manners. ⁓ Yeah, I don't think we should protest right now.
Beth Rudden (20:36)
What about through like,
and you started it with through artists, and through people who are expressing, my favorite is Lin-Manuel Miranda and Hamilton and what he has done for American musical theater. There's Banksy. I mean, like, you're in LA, so where's like Burb?
Katie Smith (20:55)
Tony Awards last night. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (21:04)
know, Burbank and Hollywood. And it's like, where are people with larger megaphones? How do we get to them? How do we how do we organize in a way that uses our federal government policies and our regulations? And who who does ICE report up to? You know, I don't know. I don't need to know at this moment, but I'm just like, you know, are we asking the right questions? Are we giving the right questions to people? Because I think that there is a how do we
how do we effectively do that that a hisma or nonviolent action that can actually help to cause change? And that was sort of my first question is where are these people going? And is it humane? And I...
Katie Smith (21:51)
Can't even get in to see
from the last that I've checked in. Some folks can't even get in to see elected officials. Can't even get in to see. everything that is happening right now, I think is entirely illegal and we need to fight it in the courts. We can win. We should win. Our state sovereignty has been, I mean, like where's the state sovereignty Republicans? Do you know what I mean? Like we didn't ask for this. There was no need for this.
Beth Rudden (22:03)
It's very disturbing.
Katie Smith (22:21)
And so look, you know, some people are here illegally and most of those people are very productive in society. They pay taxes, they're doing important jobs. The smallest fraction of people are criminals, just like the smallest fraction of people are trans. And this is all manufactured and
We just can't buy into it. And I truly think that putting all these national guards, these people from our communities who most likely don't want to be there, right? I'm not blaming the national guard or these people who are standing the line. I blame the decision makers and we just can't buy into it. So I'm sure this is going to published way after my sage advice in my cozy room right now. But like, I really don't want to see anyone get hurt. just wish.
people would stop. It needs to stop.
Beth Rudden (23:21)
government works better when everybody shows up. I see a future in which the friction between the ability to vote for an elected official or have a representative democracy where your representative is actually
using their elected power because that is something that was power bestowed on them by the electoral college and the people who voted for them. And I think that this age of transparency is going to showcase the people who
If they have made poor decisions at this moment in time when you are doing something and you can clearly see a moral action is something that can be done by all of the other people. It can be repeated by all other people. That is a moral action. An immoral action cannot be repeated by all the other people. It's immoral to put people in cages
there's no relative scale there. Like it is, it is very black and white. And I think that the, you know, let the record show of the decision that people are making right now on who to back, who not to back, you know, how to act, how not to act, how to, you know, progress through these
terrifying situations in a way that is being recorded for posterity.
Katie Smith (24:58)
Yeah, and this is why I brought up the Arab Spring is because it's all being recorded. It's all being recorded. This includes elected officials. These are this includes labor leaders.
Beth Rudden (25:09)
what is the temperature?
Katie Smith (25:12)
I was 77 earlier, I don't know what it is right now. 71. 71 in Los Angeles, a beautiful day.
Beth Rudden (25:16)
Yeah, yeah, the.
Yeah, that's absolutely stunning, like gorgeous weather. when the temperature goes up, like the boiling point temperature, I think that that's when things can get very bad and humans are very subjected for that. So I wanted to, bring in, an idea that I got from a book that I'm reading.
And the book I'm reading is one of my many, I read a ton of fantasy science fiction kind of novels because I love the stories of humans and trials and tribulations. But there's this one story that I really, really love. And it's about beginnings and endings. And it's about the idea of putting an anchor down.
When I say put your anchor down, a lot of people kind of think that that's behind you. So you have to kind of anchor to how you grew up and who you were from. That's sort of like anchoring you to like, ⁓ you know, your family, your origin story, your struggle to become who you are as an adult and grow up. But this particular character in the book has no family.
and he doesn't know where he comes from. And ⁓ something tells him, he's like, know, anchors don't always have to go to at the end. They can also go, you know, in front. So who do you want to be? If you don't know who you are and you're trying to discover who you are and you can also change that into who do you want to be and put the anchor there and then have your life draw to that anchor.
like draw your ship to that anchor. And I loved that because that's like, you you can kind of say goodbye at one point or another or pick up your anchor from your past and sort of throw it into your future and say, who do I want to be? Not who are you?
Katie Smith (27:27)
Hmmmm
Beth Rudden (27:30)
I mean, I kind of also was thinking about the relationship there with immigrants, you know, who come to this country for a better life, you know, go through the immigration process. And there are a lot of people who do get through the immigration process. It is hard, but it's really hard to do a lot of things. There's a lot of things that are really, really difficult. And, you know, I've sponsored people through the H1B.
process. I know it's complicated and I know it takes money and tenacity and family and support, but it is not impossible. People are getting through. it's like, is there a moment where people sort of pick up that anchor and say, it's not who I am because of where I come from, it's who I want to be and sort of throw in that anchor into the future on who they want to be.
And if we play this forward and we look at like, where, where, who do you want Los Angeles to be? You know, and like, you know, where would, yeah, that's right. Like, so how, how, how do we get there? Like, you know, how
Katie Smith (28:42)
A place where everyone belongs. That's it. Very simple. I mean,
I feel like we have it in so many different ways. You know, I mean, it's imperfect, but you know, and definitely we have segregation in the city. This is all real. I have seen the maps. It's stark. And I think the fires again really proved how we...
will actually cross those boundaries and show up for each other. ⁓ belonging, and I think we're an imperfect union, right? So the idea is like, what does perfection look like? What does that anchor in the future? It's just absolute belonging because when that happens, I think we have the most productive society.
Beth Rudden (29:09)
Unite.
Mmm.
Hmm. I think absolute belonging. would, I would throw some.
I would both, so both things can be true too. We forget that. You you can have really complex, wonderful situations and also really complicated, horrendous situations. Like both things can be true and it is very, very complex. But holding that paradox in your head means that you're an adult.
that means that you have gone through enough in life to say, wow, I did have the anchor in the past. You know what? I don't need that anymore. I'm going to throw it in the future. Or I did have an issue with immigrants because I had never been around people who did X, Y, Z. I, know, xenophobia is a fear of strangers and a fear of something that is strange.
You know, there is, there is some natural understanding about that, but the more Americans travel, the more they realize this country is the best country if you want to do certain things. And maybe that isn't true anymore. But what I know is like going back to the story I shared at the beginning.
The persecution that was just random, the inability to make a living, the inability to feed your family, the inability to find work, the inability to have a meal with your family and sit down at a table in a way that you are surrounded by the objects of your life.
What is it like one in four people have running water? You know, we forget how bloody lucky we are. And I'm sort of like, I think we should do sort of like a massive, like how do people get to other countries and see other countries in a way that is different than the resorts or that view from the resorts and.
I sincerely apologize. have been infected with the whole white lotus thing and that is just a well, like it's all about this. These just incredibly wealthy, navel gazing, complex humans that are struggling to figure out who they are and what they stand for. You know, in the midst of like
Katie Smith (32:00)
What does that mean? Tell me more.
Beth Rudden (32:18)
you know, absconding with people's land and not really understanding and living in this like colonial world. And it is it is so much like that in your face when you are outside of Los Angeles, like, you know, or when you are outside of the United States, where Americans travel and if they have lots of money, they're the bourgeoisie. And then the proletariat is like the workers or the people who are working, you know,
Those are the people that the Americans took the land and just said, hey, this is now ours. Thank you very much. We're going to create industry on it, but you can work for us. just like, this colonial idea is stupid. ⁓
Katie Smith (33:03)
Yeah, well, yeah, it's shaped the world, obviously. ⁓
Beth Rudden (33:08)
Well, has
it though? mean, I don't, what would it mean? How would you know it was true when we unshackled ourselves from the colonial mindset?
Katie Smith (33:21)
How would we, sorry, rephrase that.
Beth Rudden (33:23)
How do you know it's happened? How do you know it's done? Like, how?
Katie Smith (33:32)
I think being in rooms with people who are Native make it very clear to me, right? Because their stories, right? Their history tells a completely different story. And then you through those stories, you learn how it happens in a way that we do not get in our history books. And so it's been...
Beth Rudden (33:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katie Smith (33:55)
a privilege to be able to be in those indigenous spaces and hear those stories and know that history and, know, just listen. ⁓ I feel like that for me, that's the best thing. But I wanted to get back. You said something earlier that, you know, just comes back to this, you know, narrative is culture and the majority wins. And right now there's this narrative that's fight that's happening.
That's the overstory, as you like to say. So the overstory about immigrants. And it's so wrong in terms of the reality on the ground. And it's like somebody had one bad experience with somebody and then just the whole group of people is bad. It's like, aren't we smarter than that? Like, aren't we smarter than that?
Beth Rudden (34:26)
Mm-hmm.
not. I mean, because we don't have enough people. I was in Paris a couple days after Charlie Hebub was assassinated. there was so because he drew a picture that was politically. Yes. Yes. And
Katie Smith (35:08)
right, in France, yeah.
Beth Rudden (35:12)
What I didn't know that somebody I knew a lot of people in France who were Parisian. And then I knew a lot of people in France that were from the coast and Parisians over the coast are very different, much like people from South Carolina are very different from people from Texas. But you would say they're both from the south. I digress. So I think that like what I what I learned there was about demographics again.
and that the average age of a Parisian was 55. That is very old. there was not, they were keeping a lot of the Syrian refugees outside of Paris, and they were not integrating Syrian refugees into the city with the young, and to be able to effectively lower the average age so that, you know, Paris could also be, you know, young.
Katie Smith (35:49)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (36:12)
And that was such an interesting sentiment. And ⁓ that's where I think I would know that we have effectively changed the world in a way from seeing it from a colonial perspective, because we would have psychological and social healing. ⁓ And part of that is an acceptance and an understanding of
whose place is whom. And we don't do it as much anymore, but when I was in Toronto, ⁓ every talk started with a celebration and a dedication to the land that they were on. I like this. I like this idea of psychological and social healing where...
you know, societies relate to their own traditions and identity and no longer see them as inferior or exposing like, you know, different types of standards. We could have different ideas of language and education where we're exploring different languages and education instead of like, you know, figuring that out. I think that we equity as it relates to not just education.
but equitable understanding of how cultural and like, it's like a decolonization. you need to understand that there's so many cultures that come out of the colonial process too, that are ⁓ full of grit and determination because they had to come out of this. And it's like, we need to celebrate this changing culture.
And we talked about it a little bit when we were talking about, I say this often, but like when we have somebody else who is trying to listen or understand the language of like an American 14 year old girl and they come from like North Korea and they're 55 years old, there's like missing context, right? And I think that we could
Katie Smith (38:32)
Right.
Beth Rudden (38:34)
change the entire, you know, we would have political sovereignty. It would not be nominal. It would be in reality. It would be like things that we could say we have economic independence and we have equity. I'm like, let's throw our anchor to that place.
Katie Smith (38:56)
I hope, is, maybe AI can help with this. We've talked about this, where AI can be like a neutralizer, because AI, we can train not to be biased. We can train the AI to tell a story that is more complex, so that our kids understand, right? And there's more belonging.
That's what I hope the future is. The new beginning is belonging. Even though it's hard to imagine based on everything we're seeing or I'm seeing,
Beth Rudden (39:24)
My instinct is always to go be a witness and to hold space for understanding what is happening. And you might not have the ability to make sense of it, but if you are an adult and you can carry two completely opposing things in your head,
that you understand where that comes from. I think it's, your job to witness and to hold space and to write and to discuss and to go out and take stories if you can ask people for their stories and you know, get them talking about
What kind of industry do Angelenos want to create? What is the emerging culture? I mean, this is why I love young people and I love to be around young people because they're like, it's just not that deep. Bet? Like dead ass? Like, you know, this language, like there's so much, like, how do we, what is emerging from this?
Katie Smith (40:11)
Yeah.
Hahaha!
Beth Rudden (40:34)
⁓ care or not cages, right? How do we use these slogans and be a witness and proliferate what we want to see as different, where I want local communities in charge of their own natural resources. We talk about that theoretically, but
What the fuck, people? Like, do you know how much like we take water from one part of the world to give to another part of the world? You know, it's just it's it's just so wild. Yes, wild to me. But like this is this is like, how do we people are like, well, how do you unwind the Hoover Dam and like, you know, all this stuff? And I'm like, maybe you just need to reimagine what it means to be accountable.
Katie Smith (41:10)
You know, bluffing. Yeah. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (41:28)
if you are an owner. So maybe let's redefine ownership to accountability.
Katie Smith (41:33)
the narrative really matters and the people who are doing the work on the ground here, like it's backed up with policy and research and deep understanding.
Beth Rudden (41:41)
Yeah, that's great.
Katie Smith (41:44)
of the actual community here on the ground.
Beth Rudden (41:47)
So, you know, I think that...
You guys have done a lot on making sure that you have really good police practices that aren't criminalizing poverty. the fact that you even know about that means that there is, is that that's what that's the social healing. Right. And, you know, you can get really specific and
Katie Smith (42:02)
Well, we're working on it, but we're better than the song. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (42:20)
who are the leaders that are emerging and instead of like sort of like calling them out on social media, my instinct is always like, don't anybody look, but here, how do I fund you? How do I help you? How do I? Because it's almost like it's that's interesting. It's switched, right? Like, I don't want to call attention to all of the amazing leaders.
Katie Smith (42:32)
gonna win!
Well, you know what's,
again, this is when the narrative thing really, really matters because now Trump can come out and say, well, the paid activists are on the ground. So the people that you see, all of those people are paid activists. it's like, sadly, we need a response to that. We do because it's true. I'm just going to call it what it is. It is true. There are people who are paid to care and show up.
Because you know what, just like we talked about my mom who made less than $30,000 a year, you know, raising two little people, it would have been very difficult for her to be the person who is the advocate for the single mom at the courthouse, at the lobbyist meeting or whatever, you know, when you're doing your thing, your delegations. Yes, these are people who are paid to show up. These are labor leaders. These are people who are doing
the good work of educating people about their rights. And yeah, these are people who are housing advocates. These are people who are trying to create a better city. And these people also care about immigrants. And you know what? I was one of those people for five years. I worked at Advancement Project at a research and policy shop. And we were a research and policy shop. So we're always working with the people on the ground.
I know these people personally. These are good people who are not getting paid tons of money. They're doing it because they care about their city and they care about their
Beth Rudden (44:11)
So are they
getting paid like, you know, $26,000 to go march in the street or are they getting paid like two?
Katie Smith (44:22)
So that's, it's so funny because you were talking about how the National Guard makes no money and they're just standing there, right? Like these are people who work for low wages at nonprofits. Come on people. Nobody's being rich at nonprofits, right? These are non-local nonprofits, community-based organizations that are working on various issues to create better outcomes for their communities here in the city from housing to environmental justice.
Beth Rudden (44:33)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And
these are people who are living their values. like if you one day without riots, whatever, you would be like, hey, do you want to come to dinner because you want to hear them? They're still going to talk on the same talk tracks that they're always talking on because they believe what they're doing, right? These are not actors.
Katie Smith (44:56)
Yeah.
They're not getting paid
to go to the protest. so this, it's, it's, you know, we always have this problem that we overcomplicate things, but the idea is like, no, these are people from the community who are working to make this city better. Nobody's getting paid to be at this protest, but people are, you know, concerned and rightfully so, you know, like.
What's happening right now is totally illegal and it's an affront to democracy and to state sovereignty.
Beth Rudden (45:35)
I think you're on the right point that there are these community leaders who, when things like this happen, there is the right to protest and there are like professional organizers, there are activists, there are security personnel, there are legal observers, like the National Lawyers Guild, there is like legal observation on the ground, right? ⁓ Well,
Katie Smith (45:47)
Yes.
Yep. Yep.
so they're not exactly letting it happen right now. They're even
tear casting press.
Beth Rudden (46:06)
Well, to me, this is not surprising because the freedom of the press has not really been of the interest in this particular administration. Right, you have medics, have first aid, have journalists, you have photographers, you have police officers, you have undercover officers. You have like, you know, the people from both sides who know who are like the provocateurs.
Like, you know, there are people who do do that and like that, that is like some undercurrent of like mob mentality and mob management. But the people, you know, that are the organizers and the people who are activists and that's what they do for a living. Of course they're showing up. Of course there's yes.
Katie Smith (46:53)
course they're showing up. Thank you. That's it. Of course they're showing up. Every
single day they show up for this city and their community. You think they're not going to show up? Come on. You're taking people they know, like literally ripping them away from their families. Like, of course they're going to show up.
Beth Rudden (47:02)
It's like, it's this...
Right. Police
officers, fire chiefs, paramedics, you know, these again, I always like to try to give people an understanding that these are the roles of people who are working within the community. So yeah, they're getting paid because it's their job to keep the peace or it's their job to organize a entire group's freedom of speech.
Katie Smith (47:25)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (47:36)
especially when they are going against something that is horrific. And if you don't have information on where human beings are being taken that are your daughter and your kids' best friends, or are your neighbors, or are the people that you, that check you out in the grocery stores, or the people who you hire and are a part of the community.
Katie Smith (47:42)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (48:04)
and these people are just taken, it's terrifying. And I am so sorry. And I'm so glad that you have these professional organizers and these activists and the police officers and the legal observers and the medics and the journals and the photographers, because this is people doing their job. that's what...
Katie Smith (48:19)
Yeah, they're doing their job.
This is them doing their job. Above and beyond
their job. Nobody is getting paid to do the protest. That is not how these organizations work. know their job. Yes. Yes. And I do think that there are some bad actors and who is motivating those back to bad. know, look, there's going to be somebody.
Beth Rudden (48:29)
I just, I want to draw it out. Like, I mean, they're paid to do their job because it is their job to do this. Yes. Got you.
Who benefits?
Who benefits?
Katie Smith (48:48)
Who's benefiting from those bad
actors? It's not the people who care about the community and are working day in, day out to make it better for communities.
Beth Rudden (48:56)
it's going to come to our local community. And when we have somebody who is in charge of the largest military organization on earth, ⁓ it will come to our community. And this is where it's such a difficult thing, but
I know where I land on this. And there are tragedies every day, everywhere. And I think we all have to figure out how to use the people who do know how to organize and be able to be a productive participant of our government.
There's a couple different apps, there's a couple different places that we can point people to because I do think that the more, the closer you can get to the people who are on the ground, who are actively having to do their job through this, those are the people who need the help.
Katie Smith (49:56)
one organization that's here in Los Angeles that goes deep into communities that is very trusted, do your own vetting if you want to, but Liberty Hill Foundation. Liberty Hill Foundation, Liberty Hill Foundation has been around Los Angeles for a long time. ⁓ It is a way to fund one organization who's very close to multiple communities on the ground and can fund them quickly.
Beth Rudden (50:05)
Liberty.
Katie Smith (50:21)
because they're in direct connection with them. So if you give money to the Liberty Hill Foundation, you're actually very quickly distributing money to people who need it here on the ground in Los Angeles. So that's one quick, easy way that somebody can give today. ⁓ If God forbid this continues by the time this podcast is broadcasted.
Beth Rudden (50:44)
Their motto is change, not charity. Founded in 1976 by Sarah Pillsbury, heir to the Pillsbury fortune. And they provide critical funding, training, and capacity building to community partners. It seems like a pretty good organization. Yeah, that's wonderful. I'm glad you called them out. Thank you for this discussion. think that starting out with
Katie Smith (51:01)
Yeah, they're great.
Beth Rudden (51:12)
the understanding that all things migrate. And that immigration, it's a necessity for our economic stability. And if we want to have any sort of economic thriving, we need a lot of immigrants, full stop.
Katie Smith (51:32)
Great. That's right. Thank you for mentioning that because at the end of the day, what people really care about, we've talked about it before, is finances. And we've talked about it in terms of the kitchen table conversation. But when we're talking about California is now the fourth largest economy in the world, guess how we got there, everyone? Well, a lot of it was AI, but it was also a lot of it was immigrants and just everyday people that pay their taxes.
Beth Rudden (52:02)
We got this. The hardest thing in the world is to be a witness. You know this.
Katie Smith (52:07)
Thank you. I feel better after talking with you, but that's always true.
Beth Rudden (52:07)
How do you feel?
I think we can do so much more when we understand how we can be in community with our people and the people who are fighting for those everyday rights, our sheriffs, our police officers, our judges, the people we vote for locally. I really want people to understand that's where our power is.
Don't give it away and just vote down party lines. But okay, I will stop telling people how to vote. How about just vote? Just vote. Yes.
Katie Smith (52:46)
Let's vote. Let's vote. Vote your values.
Check your values. Then vote those values, please.
Beth Rudden (52:52)
yes, reduce the friction.
Katie Smith (53:16)
Hi, my name is Katie Smith and I am co-host of And We Feel Fine. Today's broadcast was brought to you by Humma. Humma is creating the social media of the future with no ads, no subscriptions, no upsells. This is delightful experience powered by empathetic AI made by and for community.
Beth Rudden (53:34)
Hi, my name is Beth Rudden and I am the co-host of And We Feel Fine, brought to you by Bast.ai. Bast.ai brings you practical AI solutions, fully explainable, fully transparent, and something everybody can use. Please like, subscribe, or click the button below in order to be able to show how much you love our podcast,
Katie Smith (53:55)
We'll see you next time.
Beth Rudden (53:56)
Bye bye.