Explore how the social construct of race and racial oppression operates at multiple levels with a rotating focus on different social systems. Connect with Austin-area justice movement organizers and everyday people with relevant lived experience to lay out historical context, current affairs, and creative possibilities for a liberated future.
Hello, dear listener. You're tuned in to Racism on the Levels, interpersonal, organizational, cultural, and systemic levels we're creating that right now. My We're creating that right now. My name is Stacey Fraser. My pronouns are she and they.
Stacie Freasier:In addition to hosting this show,
Stacie Freasier:I am a proud mama,
Stacie Freasier:a Kingian nonviolence trainer, and a racial equity facilitator. Racism on the Levels is part of the Reflections of Community Outreach Rotation, a collection that gives voice to coop community organization members, as well as folks doing great things in the greater Austin, Texas community. The views expressed on the show are not necessarily those of the coop board of directors, staff, volunteers, or underwriters. I create this show while dwelling on the sacred ancestral lands of the Tonkawa, Comanche, Lipan Apache, Sauna, and Humanos. I invite you to join me in acknowledging their inconceivable losses and attempted erasure due to violent settler colonialism.
Stacie Freasier:This show centers justice, and that requires connecting with with ancestors and grounding in historical truth and accuracy. You can find the original stewards of the land you're on by visiting native hyphen land dotca. Now let's dive in.
Stacie Freasier:You got a My guest today are here from measure, and I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. So, Mimi, tell the world who you are.
Meme Styles:Oh, awesome. Awesome. Well, hello, everyone. My name is Mimi Styles. I get to be the president and the founder of Measure, this incredible black woman led research organization.
Meme Styles:Also, a mom of 4 humans, 2 adults, 1 teenager and one toddler, wife of a military veteran. Yeah. Super excited to be here.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you. Julianne.
Julianne Gaynor:Hello. Hello, Stacey. Thank you for having us on today. Hello, everyone. My name is Julianne Gaynor.
Julianne Gaynor:I recently got married, so I am trying to make a practice of using my new last name. So this is my first official podcast opportunity to do that with. So I'm very excited.
Stacie Freasier:Thanks for sharing your milestone with us.
Julianne Gaynor:Oh, yes. Yes. Thank you. My husband will appreciate that when he listens. I am currently the president of the measure board of directors.
Julianne Gaynor:I had previously served as the vice president and this past January was elected as the president of the board, which is so exciting and fantastic. And a lot of pressure to live up to the expectations and standards of measure and, you know, what Mimi has set for the organization.
Stacie Freasier:Welcome. Thank you both. How long have both of you each been in Austin, and what's your geographic origin story?
Meme Styles:Our family moved down to Austin in 2014. We've kind of moved around a lot. My husband was in the army and actually retired out of the army. We went from California to Alaska. We were in Alaska for about 7 years before driving down to Texas and lived at Fort Bliss, and then decided to keep coming down towards towards this area and just kind of planted roots in in Austin.
Stacie Freasier:Awesome. So of all your babies, how many were born here in Texas?
Meme Styles:I have one that was born here in Texas, and that's that's Clara Joy.
Stacie Freasier:How about you, Juliet?
Julianne Gaynor:I am originally from New Hampshire. I'm an East Coast gal. I moved to Austin in summer of 2016. I figured I would move in the middle of the heat so I could immediately just jump in and get used to what it feels like here because it's a total change of weather. But I lived in Washington DC during my college days and then spent some time in a really small town, New London, Connecticut is literally 6 square miles for about 7 years before I moved here to Austin.
Stacie Freasier:What brought you down?
Julianne Gaynor:I was tired of freezing and shoveling snow, but also love natural water sources, and Austin's a beautiful city.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you for sharing stories. I think it's important because I'm 5th generation Texan, so deeply rooted in South Texas and Central Texas. And those 20 years traveling around the country opened my worldview up so broadly. I met so many people and was exposed to ideas that, frankly, I never learned, acquired, discussed here in Texas Public Schools. I'm really grateful for going on that journey out to come back and then go deeper here with my roots, make a change here.
Meme Styles:There's really something to say about, like, coming back home after you've learned so much. And I kind of had, like, that same experience just recently. You know, I grew up in California, you know, really born and raised near San Diego area. It's called Oceanside.
Stacie Freasier:I know it. I I lived in San Diego for 6 years.
Meme Styles:Oh, so you know all about Ironside.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah.
Meme Styles:And, you know, I was an 8th grader there, and I was the the first 8th grade class to attend Martin Luther King Middle School. It's a brand new school that was built. When I walked on campus, I met the principal who was this little tiny 4 foot 9 black woman named missus Clendening. And she looked at me and, like, no one has ever seen me. You know, she said, hey, Mimi.
Meme Styles:You know, I I'm gonna need you to support me as I build the school. You know, we're gonna need to pick out colors for this school. We need to choose the mascot. You know, I was the captain of the cheerleading squad. She had me in these peer support groups and stuff.
Meme Styles:Like, I mean, it was just, like, incredible. Like, the agency that she gave me and saw me as a black girl. And just recently, I was invited back to San Diego to go speak to the National North County African American Women's Conference as their keynote speaker. And it was her that invited me there. And so I was able to really, truly give her her flowers for seeing me.
Meme Styles:Right? Like, we do the data. And the data shows that, you know, we don't see black girls. Like, black girls are literally invisible. And to the fact whereas they're looked at as less lovable, as more culpable for their actions, as hypersexualized.
Meme Styles:And so and that's called adultification bias. Right? Like, that's something that is a real thing. I was able to, you know, share this story on that stage. Thank miss Glendening for really seeing me, and then also encourage the rest of those incredible black women there to continue to see black girls.
Meme Styles:So just being able to come home. Right? Like, after all these and it for me too, it was about 20 some odd years. Like, coming back home, you know, just really being able to take in all that that I've learned and be able to share it back out is incredible.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you, missus Clendenny. Yeah.
Julianne Gaynor:Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:For putting wind in your sails. Right?
Meme Styles:Yeah. She gave me this award called the humanitarian of the year award in 8th grade. I didn't even know what it meant. Like, I didn't even know what the word meant. I was just like, oh, I got a plot.
Meme Styles:And, now, of course, I know what it means. I gotta say that that was definitely something that changed my life, my at least the trajectory of my life to where I am now.
Stacie Freasier:How about you, Julianne? Would you have any formative experiences that tie into why you do what you do now?
Julianne Gaynor:Yes. Like I said, when we were doing our introductions, I'm from New Hampshire. I'm a biracial woman who at that point, the biracial little girl who was adopted by a white family in New England 1985. And at that point in time, white families weren't adopting babies that looked like me. So growing up in New Hampshire, I was always told, you know, like, oh, we don't see color.
Julianne Gaynor:You're just Julianne. So like little little things throughout my life. You know, parents coming to pick me up from school and the teachers not being able to find my parents because I didn't look like them. So those experiences with growing up, my experiences of having curly hair and a really small, well off white town where I showed up at their hairdresser and they had no idea what to do with me going all the way through college to picking colleges and, you know, having my best best friends at the time. I mean, people who from 3rd or 4th grade were really close friends.
Julianne Gaynor:Tell me that they didn't want to come visit me where I was going to school because they thought they were going to get raped. Like, I was in DC, the Mecca, Howard University. All the black people on TV were the real world and MTV music videos at the time. And, you know, not being black enough to go to Howard and then getting to Howard and being like, wow, there's black people or biracial people in New Hampshire. And then, you know, my mom being the only white woman in our new student orientation and a room full of a 1,000 plus freshman kids.
Julianne Gaynor:I look back at what I received at Howard and meeting my dear, dear friends now and all that they taught me and being welcomed into their families and really seeing that black culture, black family culture, learning that through them, learning how to do my hair, and then reflecting on, you know, New Hampshire and growing up in a white state and a white family and realizing like, wow, Julianne, you know, you you experienced racism. You know, like people were racist toward you. Your best friends were racist toward you. Did they know? Maybe not.
Julianne Gaynor:Maybe. Did some other people know? Probably. So just kind of connecting those dots and then thinking about taking my, you know, lived experience and my story and moving forward and, you know, serving, you know, on the measure board and then serving the community and in other ways as well and just making sure that being fair and being equitable and trying not to make people feel how I felt growing up.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you for sharing and being so open.
Meme Styles:Can I say something to that too? Because I feel like not enough people understand what it means when they say, I don't see color. Or, like, you know, you're just Julianne. Like, we don't see color. I mean and it's so problematic to say that.
Meme Styles:But for some reason, it's sort of like just the understanding of why is not has not sunken in. And so when you say that, it it literally erases one's identity, their culture, their all of the struggle that our ancestors had to go through in order to get us to where we are and to who we are today. It strips away the beauty that is color and the beauty that is diversity. The beauty that is different spectrums of, like, who you are as a human. And so I need you to see me.
Meme Styles:Like, you know, I need you to see me. I need you to see all of this color that I have on my face. You know? And I need you to honor it and respect it and appreciate it. Julianne, I just wanted to thank you for sharing that story, too.
Meme Styles:I didn't know all of that about you either. I'm learning new things about you as well. But that yeah, that's just such an important component of who we are.
Stacie Freasier:I wish
Julianne Gaynor:I had those words in 8th grade, but I didn't. I didn't even know.
Stacie Freasier:Well, let's go let's go into measure a little bit. Right? So who sowed the seeds for measure?
Meme Styles:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think it was you know, measure came out of listening to community voice and needing to have something else. So back in 2014, 15, around the height of the Black Lives Matter movement here locally, You know, myself, there were several other organizers doing lots of work on the ground. I was working alongside, like, Chaz Moore, Fatima Mann, just several other folks, right, at Austin Justice Coalition at that time.
Meme Styles:And, you know, leading marches and, you know, demand letters. And, you know, it was it was a lot of, like, real direct action work. And I had sat on a panel, discussion about community policing. I believe it was May of 2015. And on that panel, you know, I kind of, like, looked to my left and my right, and I saw that I was kind of, like, the only, quote, unquote, activist, you know, or per se on that panel.
Meme Styles:And so I didn't wanna be pigeonholed into that narrative of an angry black woman. Right? And so what I started doing on that panel was just asking questions instead. You know, like, what are the community what are the, key performance indicators that are assessing and evaluating community policing if that is a priority for the city. You know, what is the budget?
Meme Styles:Where's the data? Who's collecting this data? Who's creating the surveys? Who's analyzing the surveys? What's the methodology?
Meme Styles:You know, where is the damn data? Like, I literally that's what I said on the on stage. And I didn't get any answers at that time. At the same time, you know, president Barack Obama then was launching what's called the Police Data Initiative in DC. And so as a matter of fact, Chief Acevedo was in DC at the launch of the Police Data Initiative.
Meme Styles:So I'm here at, you know, raising these questions for a conversation. He's there raising the same questions on a or or answering some of the questions at a national scale. And so, you know, I was really encouraged to just, like, think of a solution. And so that solution was the Measure Austin project, which brought together police, activists, researchers, you know, into one room in order to come up with metrics. That at that time, we, you know, we're like, okay.
Meme Styles:This is what we would want, you know, training, new training or and so I I soon then learned that, you know, Austin really more so needed a more evidence based approach, first of all, to policing and that it was not just about policing. That their, you know, structural racism is baked into every instance and every institution. And so, you know, we really focused in at measure on research and data. And looking at not just the criminal justice system, but education, health, you know, economics. That's where we are.
Meme Styles:That's where we are now. We we provide free data and evaluation support to powerful black, brown and indigenous led organizations. And then we're also developing anti racist technology in order to build community power and fight against structural racism.
Stacie Freasier:That's awesome. Mimi, when you were at the you know, entered into Austin, that was about the time you got here. Right? About 2014. 2015 is when this started.
Meme Styles:Yeah. Who who put 1
Stacie Freasier:in your sales here locally to make that happen? Like, who were some of your early fans and supporters?
Meme Styles:For sure. Yeah. I mean, a lot. Right? So, like, I had, as soon as I got here, myself and my daughter really launched, like, kind of like relaunched, I guess, or reintroduced the Juneteenth pageant here in Austin.
Meme Styles:So that's what really kind of got me, you know, more so working to support, you know, our community. When I was with the Austin Justice Coalition, you know, I was, you know, Chaz was a huge supporter of my work. He actually was one that that said, hey, Mimi. You know, go start measure. Like, you know, I always joke with him and say, hey.
Meme Styles:You kicked me out of AJC, but, no, that wasn't really true. I'm gonna say that on lot. I'm saying that right now. Chaz did not kick me out of AJC. He encouraged me to go start measure.
Meme Styles:He always says, like, why do you keep saying that? So anyway, let me set the record straight. Finally. There you go, Chad.
Stacie Freasier:The roasting continues.
Meme Styles:Nice. He's great. You know, Fatima Mann has always inspired me. You know, Nelson's longevity and commitment has always inspired me. You know?
Meme Styles:Gosh, there's just so many people. Right? Doctor Collette Pierce Burnett, she was my first mentor when I came here. She actually sat me down and said, hey, Mimi, you know, just say yes. You know, just just try that.
Meme Styles:Just say yes. And now I've said yes enough to I'm at the point where I just say no.
Stacie Freasier:Yes. No a lot. You hit
Meme Styles:a tipping point. Yeah. I say no a lot. You know? And also, Mary Adler, I think, has also been just an incredible supporter.
Meme Styles:And then just my team of black women, like, literally, like my team. I think I have the baddest team on the block. Like, I'm just gonna say that precious Azaray, Paulette Blanc, you know, my sister, Shirellle McMillan, Angel Carroll, Passion Scott. I mean, we have, just a a huge team of incredible black women, social scientists, data activists that are unhidden. I call us unhidden figures.
Meme Styles:And, you know, we are we're after everything that belongs to us. We are we are coming, you know, with restoration energy. Like we, you know, we are due this power of data. You know, we're we're here to share it.
Julianne Gaynor:I love that. Mimi does. Mimi does have a pretty bad team over there. So, you know, there's some competition out here in Austin.
Stacie Freasier:Really? And when did when did you come into the the the measure fold? What was that origin story?
Julianne Gaynor:I had first met Mimi when I was working at Houston Tillis University. I think that was 2017 or so. You know, Mimi had just, you know, started. You were only a couple years old at that point. And ever since then, I was like, you know what?
Julianne Gaynor:This is this is someone who, you know, I have to watch and follow carefully and, you know, see what she does in the community. Because as a, you know, newbie to Austin, I had not yet found my community. So I was trying to, you know, feel out who, you know, doctor Burnett was championing at the time and really, you know, see saw that she believed in Mimi and like, all right, I gotta I gotta keep I gotta keep tabs on Mimi somehow. So we had just, you know, stay connected in various ways and would see each other out at events and, you know, keep keep the connection going. And, you know, when the time was right about a year and a half, 2 years ago, almost now.
Julianne Gaynor:Wow. You know, she approached me about joining the board, the measure board. And it was definitely something that at the time I was, you know, super intrigued by and, you know, going to me means just say yes. I said yes. And I can't imagine, you know, having not said yes, really.
Julianne Gaynor:So I'm really it's been an incredible year and a half. And now I get to lead the board and support Mimi and her fantastic team and the initiatives and, you know, the work that they're doing, you know, and also support restoration and recovery and, you know, self care because the work that, you know, they dive into, you know, 10 toes in, you know, down deep is exhausting emotionally and physically. So to support them as a strong board and, you know, leading a strong board with fantastic talent from the community, you know, that's that's what we're here to do.
Stacie Freasier:The term restoration, it's so lovely. And I appreciate that. That's I'm wondering. This is a a a not the cuff question. How does restoration and reparations, how do they dance with one another?
Stacie Freasier:What is what in your mind's eye, what is the relationship between restoration and reparations?
Meme Styles:I mean, I can just say we're due both. So number 1, 100% we are due both. You know, restoration for me is something that I think that we have the ability to own and control right now. Right? We can say no.
Meme Styles:We can we can, you know, believe in ourselves enough to say that we are that we deserve rest and that we deserve repair. We we deserve therapy. You know, as a matter of fact, that's actually baked into the way that we do work at Measure. So because I know that I have a team of black women that are exposed to intersecting oppressions every single day, just because of who they are, then I need to create mechanisms by which they rest and restore. And so some of those mechanisms look like quiet Fridays.
Meme Styles:Right? Those mechanisms look like, you know, free access to a therapist. So each one of my team members, we all have, you know, access to a therapist, and we, you know, have time to sit and talk and to decompress. You know, we have times where, where honestly, there's a nap time on the schedule. Like, literally, it says nap time, and we take a nap Because, you know, also as as an Afrofuturist, it's another piece of my identity.
Meme Styles:I believe, you know, I'm able to really to really time travel, you know, and to think deeper about some of these complex societal issues and maybe ideate solutions, like, as I'm sleeping. So, you know, you know, that that's kind of where I'm where I get spoken to in ways. And I wake up, and I'll jot down, you know, some of my solutions and some of my thoughts, you know, for deeper thinking in the morning. But, you know, I just there this that idea of restoration, I believe it's it's ours for the taking. You know, reparations, it's, again, it's something that's also due to us.
Meme Styles:I am a huge component, like a I'm sorry, huge supporter of, like, doctor Claude Anderson, you know, who has always spoke about reparations and who has always spoke about, you know, the need to repair in the way that is just right. Right? America has to do better. You know, they are we are owed a check, And we are owed a check. That's that's my that's my thought on it.
Meme Styles:Mhmm.
Julianne Gaynor:I would, you know, I I wholeheartedly agree with Mimi, and I love what you said about, you know, restoration is something that is within our bounds of control. Like, we get to make those immediate decisions, you know, to protect our peace on our behalf. Sometimes you just gotta take a break and put it down. But I think in terms of reparations, yes, we are owed a check. And to me, that's the more systemic piece of the puzzle.
Julianne Gaynor:You know, like this is in some ways in our control, but in many ways out of our control. You're seeing communities in California talk about that. We're seeing communities in other states kind of recognizing what it means, what reparations mean. So I'm glad that there are, you know, pockets of the country that are, you know, talking about that and seeing what it could look like to, you know, literally, you know, and I this sounds gross to say, but like compensate black people for the labor that they have done to build the country, compensate black families for slavery and the trauma that is generational that happens because of decisions that were made in a 100 plus year period of time that, you know, took us away from Africa, from our mother country, and other countries that, you know, slaves are brought here from as well. So I think when we're talking about reparations systemically, you know, there's got to be leaders in that conversation at the federal and national level to really take this seriously and, you know, move the needle toward a check.
Julianne Gaynor:Like, what is it what is it going to take? So I'm I'm watching that, you know, I'm paying attention to what some of you know, what California now is doing their communities to, you know, see what what will happen. But it's definitely something that at a national level, I think deserves, you know, real initiative and conversation.
Meme Styles:And yeah. And even like, I love I love how you pointed out the local level too and how these, you know, like, here in Austin, Nook, Turner and Brianna, like, they are leading this coalition, this black Austin coalition to to really take back what they are due. And I love the framework. As a matter of fact, Measure provided some free evaluation and data support to that organization to help them tell the story, to help them tell the story of, you know, the contribution that black folks gave to the city and why reparations is so needed and why a black embassy is so needed here in Austin.
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm. Thank you for amplifying Nick's work. Thank you so much for tuning in. The music you heard was from Shoyinka Rahim's 2016 album, Bebo Love. This, along with previous episodes, are available anywhere you listen to podcasts by searching for racism on the levels.
Stacie Freasier:I'd love to hear from you. Please reach out with show ideas, collaborations, comments, and questions. My email is stacie, s t a c I e, atcoop.org. I give enthusiastic thanks to Michelle Manning Scott and Nabil Azerhouni for production support. My son, Rumi, provided motivation.
Stacie Freasier:Remember, in all things and always, love is the highest level.
Soyinka Rahim:Taking nothing. Never giving up on the love to. And let your light shine like the sunshine. A celebration, no separation. You gotta love some, I gotta love some.