051 | Mastering Unscalable Things to Drive Scale: Diary of a Drinks Builder obsessed about details | Part 2/2 with Ilias Mastrogiannis (Seattle, WA, USA)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 051, I continued the conversation with Ilias Mastrogiannis from Episode 050 so feel free to listen to that as well. I hope you will enjoy our chat

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:15 Winning Large Retailers

5:28 Securing The Foundation

8:34 Non-Scalable Tasks

13:31 1% Better Everyday

17:57 The Necessity of Obsession

25:07 Wrap Up

27:24 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Ilias Mastrogiannis

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Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 51.

I continue the conversation with
Ilias Mastroiannis from episode

50, so feel free to listen to
that as well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
I'm interested to know like

let's say the journey to get to
to the wine.

You know like did you start
first with smaller kind of like

mom and pop stores if they are a
thing in you know in Washington

state, like how did you get
there?

Because that's in a way that's
the ultimate goal of everybody.

You know to get into a big
retailer that can do more volume

than the the bars that can do
you know like in two two oz at

the time that that takes a while
but what what is the journey

that got you there.
So the bigger retailers?

Yeah, yeah.
As we started seeing more pull

back from essentially bars
during that COVID period, well

you know we obviously pivoted to
direct to consumer.

So that that helped us sustain
during that period.

And then we're looking I think
around that time was like OK,

where where can we go to to be
able to sell some products.

Total Wine actually has a great
onboarding process for craft

spirits.
I think they do it for wine and

possibly beer, but I know from
the the spirits because that's

that's all we focus with them.
They have a great ability to

essentially onboard essentially
submit a a new product.

We started with Total Wine
really right after COVID when we

essentially saw all those
accounts pull back and we wanted

something new to add to our mix.
So it started as a necessity

because again of consumer
behaviors through those bars and

it really expanded very
localized.

I'm a big fan of trying to win
within your city first.

The visualization that I I put
it's is it's kind of like

puddles, ponds, lakes and
oceans.

That's how I see when you talk
about you know winning within

your local market or perhaps
within your state or now you go

to a different state or then to
a different country.

I think it's super important to
to win in that puddle first.

I think it's much harder to win
it.

It might, it might take 20 years
to really win.

And what what I mean by that is,
do people wear your, your

distillery shirt when you walk
down the street?

Do they wear the merchandise?
When I see great brands,

Harley-Davidson, do they type 2
their, their logo on you?

That's a sign of winning.
Not really.

People think oh, I mean 200
accounts, but nobody's moving

anything and they think they're
winning and then that's a sign

for them to expand to the next
level.

And I think they underestimate
that quote UN quote winning

mentality.
I think it it really takes a lot

of time to win within your
puddle.

It's a lot, a lot more harder to
win within your puddle because

more people perhaps know you, so
they might not really give you a

hand.
So there's there's more dynamics

that work against you, but it's
super, super important to win in

your local market before you
even expense.

So with Total Wine really we, we
started with one story, now

we're up to three or four, So
very, very small and that's

intentionally because we want to
be able to support them and we

want to be able to win before we
even consider anything else.

And we're now in year nine and I
don't think we've won remotely

in our puddle.
You know, it's there's a lot

more work that needs to be done,
so.

That's very interesting.
And actually it was a question

that I wanted to ask you on the
the path and the journey of the

city.
You know how to win the city and

and and so on.
And it's very interesting what

you say because listening to
you, I'm a big fan of driving

velocity while expanding
distribution especially like big

brands for example, that have
the muscles.

I mean I remember in my old
times in in in beer, you know

sometimes we would go with a
huge distributor or I mean they

were a brewery in their own
country for example.

So they could unlock, I mean
they had an army of like

hundreds of sales guys, you know
they could unlock the the thing

and and in some countries if
that's what happened and I was

telling them let's not do that,
let's do you know 1000

hectoliters to start with and
then we go to 5000 and then we

go to 10,000 to 20,000.
But they were just like no year

one, we can do 20,000
hectoliters and it's like it's

never going to happen because
20,000 hectoliters it, it means

that basically you spam the
country, all the supermarkets,

all the bars, you know they were
listed because we are with one

of the biggest players there.
So of course they would say yes,

but ultimately what's going to
happen in terms of rotation and

dust on the shelf now.
So listening to you is very

interesting what you say because
you mentioned to the wine as an

example, but it's like it's one
store, it's two stores, it's

three stores and you do
activations before you go to the

second store and before you go
to the third store.

You know, you don't leave the
outpost until you it's secured

with rotation.
Yeah.

And then that's very important
because it's very easy to be

seducted by big retailers in
that sense and say, oh, I think

you're doing great.
You would you could expand in 50

stores.
Shall we do that?

And then it's like ho, ho, ho,
you know, hold, hold your

horses, man.
You know, it's you know.

Be careful what you wish for, I
always say.

Super important to think again,
we bring total wine because

that's the experience that I
have.

But you know I I definitely see
if I don't support them, there's

a decline in sales which tells
me that again going back to the

consumer, the consumer doesn't
recognize my brand.

So my my puddle is not really
secure.

Going back to you what you just
said with the post being secure

before you leave.
So those indicators tell me

that, you know, I have a lot of
work to do in order for a

consumer to go into the total
wine without me being present

there sitting and and trying to
do a taste for them to purchase

and purchase a bottle of our
product on their own that that

takes a lot.
So it's very important to be

patient and take it slow and be
strategic with what direction

you want to take because there's
competition everywhere even in

the Brandy category.
So it's super important to be

patient and and play your cards
right and do it the right way.

I think from the beginning and
again those was lessons that I

learned really by seeing
accounts when I will make a sale

and I would be happy and then
crickets after that And it was

because this the same concept,
it just at a different scale.

I can.
I can imagine.

It's tough.
And it doesn't mean that we

should be just kind of like
dreamers, you know, like in

islocate textile, let's chill,
you know it's normal.

It takes time.
I mean you can take

opportunities.
You know there will be some

sales that are more
opportunistic.

There will be some sales that
are more, you know, that are

easier than others because the
product has a perfect fit with

that target occasion.
So you know the the the product

actually rotates and that helps
you pay the bills at the same

time.
Then the longer term journey is

actually doing things as you say
you know like properly and with

the slower kind of like approach
that it's, you know, it's

securing the foundation of the
building or of the you know

whatever we want to we want to
call it.

Yeah, you see that in the in the
tech world a lot, right?

Do the things that don't scale
think Airbnb was one of them.

Maybe the story worked.
They would actually go to the

apartment and the founders would
take all the pictures and they

would be there to welcome the
guest.

And what that helped them do is
understand what the requirements

were from a consumer, you know,
So the founders would fly to New

York, do the onboarding, and
then write the handbook and try

to automate it through code,
right.

So it's the same process where I
think it's super important at

least for the founders of people
that are involved in the

business to to go to those
accounts to be able to go to

events, talk to people and not
really hiding behind a

conference call or or whatever
zoom and make decisions that way

because it's it's super
important especially for a

smaller brand to to connect,
show your face and and be

present.
Absolutely.

I mean, and I I call it instead
of the non scalable things like

I call them the the boring
stuff.

No, the unsexy stuff because
it's you know how it is with

things that I guess we do is
like you know imagine distilling

for you must be like a a big
dream now you know like and then

you go and you get nerdy into
the the woods and the

ingredients and the grapes and
everything.

You know, that's that's hard
work, but it's also beautiful

for the distiller now.
But then, like going out there

and it's like, yeah, now it's
cold.

And you know, I need to go out
and get into the car and loaded

with a couple of bottles and go
out and hit some bars and some,

some stores.
Then it's like, OK, now I can, I

can delegate that to a sales
guy, you know.

But yes, you know ultimately if
you haven't done it yourself

then you you're going to be
fooled by people because then

it's going to be Oh yeah it's
hard because you know it's hard

but then you know people lack a
system as as well now with

selling with doing the things
that are non I mean non

scalable, I love the and going
to going to this actually, I

mean you said you know you're a
small business so you know

you're a family business so you
are actually the guy who you

know jumps in the car and grows
and and said right.

It's really mostly me and my
wife.

As I mentioned, I try to focus
mostly on the back end, so

distilling.
But yeah, there there are

situations where I have to go to
an event and it's pouring and

it's outside and it's called
we're in Washington.

So it's always raining up here
and you have to stand for six

hours, right?
And hopefully somebody shows up.

It's always a battle.
But I think it's one of the IT

it goes back to.
I think what you just said too

is it's super important I think
at least for a small brand to be

able to understand every
position all the way from the

taxes to how do you do your
monthly reports to how do you

sell to, how do you produce the
product.

I think it's very important to
be in those positions because

not only helps you later on,
hopefully when you hire somebody

to be able to delegate it in the
right way, but it helps you

understand all aspects of the
business and hopefully make the

right decisions either through
putting money effort, perhaps

cutting that excess if if you
think that it's not needed.

It's super important for I think
founders to to do this regularly

and obviously with with Small
Business Week, we are forced to

do it just because there's
nobody else who did.

But it's a great way to to
really understand the business

and the sector.
Absolutely.

I was smiling now because I
yesterday I got an e-mail that I

forgot to pay a bill, you know,
and and usually you know, I'm

also a family business.
I mean like my wife has me in

some extents more on the admin
kind of things and basically she

forgot to to to to pay the bills
now.

But then I was typing the e-mail
to apologize and I was going to

say you know like I want to
blame someone, someone else.

No, I want because ultimately
wasn't me.

But then I was like shit, you
are the responsible person.

You're accountable.
So it's you who forgot to pay.

It doesn't matter who else
forgot to pay, you know.

And this is one of those things
when you do the podcast, you do

the, you know, the invoices, you
do all these sort of things that

eventually, at some point it's
going to scale and you know you

will be delegating them.
But you have to know what it is

because you have done it at
least a few times and you know

what it is about now.
And we were discussing about,

you know, podcasts.
You know, like I may not be

doing the editing nowadays, but
I I edited, you know, half of

the episodes, you know, and then
since a few months I'm not

editing them anymore.
But I know how to edit the

podcast.
I provide the tools to edit and

and so on.
So it's these kind of things

that is very important with
small businesses to understand

what it takes.
And I love what you were saying

before, You know, like getting
these things is not the Holy

Spirit that came in and lied to
you.

It's you making mistakes, you
know, and learning from them.

And it's like, OK, shit, this
account is not reordering.

What happened, you know?
And then you go there and maybe

you get some complaints from
them and then they shout at you

in Greek that you never show up.
Then all of a sudden you

apologize and then you have a
glass together and then a new

order is in, you know.
And then it is.

It takes time and maybe you have
postponed it for a couple of

weeks.
I don't want to go there, like,

you know, they were shout at me
and so on.

But this is ultimately what this
business is about.

No, it's it's a people business.
You know, we do mistake.

We do things.
It's about fixing them, learning

from the mistake.
And you know this, you know,

ever, ever tried, ever fail.
Fail again.

Feel better?
No.

Actually, I have a quote that I
want to read to you, if that's

OK.
It's actually one of my favorite

books.
It's called The Winemaker.

I'll put it up for for you to
see.

But essentially this guy,
Richard Peterson, he was an old

school winemaker in California.
Great story.

I think if you're into wine or
winemaking in general, it's a

great book because it walks you
through old school Napa and how

it started, you know, from the
guy worked in E&J and moved up.

But he was talking with the
owner of Silver Oak, which is a

big winery very known for their
Cabernet Sauvignon in Napa.

And essentially says Justin
concluded that the single most

important reason for success or
failure is how inexpensively the

owner has gotten to the wine
business.

Essentially.
Essentially those are built

really fancy all the way up and
they just put port money with

really no understanding of the
business.

He essentially said they failed
versus people that started

really with a smaller budget,
people more involved were the

ones that really succeeded in
this business and essentially

essentially takes the acceptance
it says it can be up to at least

10 years in in terms of the
brand being relevant in a

consumers mind.
So having that in mind of things

is really important and it's
it's a quote that I always go

back because it just puts
perspective into what we're

trying to build.
It just takes a lot of time and

I think being able to understand
every aspect of the business is

very beneficial.
So it's a great reminder.

That's a great quote.
I will get your book.

I remember that you've always
asked the books to recommend in

your episodes and it's very
interesting what you say because

I raised this example with my
podcast.

Sometimes like to get a a new
followers.

I may spend an evening with
talking to a person and then I

see that they're interested and
then they follow my you know, my

others oh you have a podcast you
know we were discussing before

you know like you know that
takes Spotify.

They click follow and so on.
I mean and that was half an hour

conversation for one follower.
Yep.

You know and it's like was it
worth it.

Yes.
It was worth it because you

know, like first of all I, I
explain what I do back to to

your point about the narrative
that you're using now maybe I

used a little bit of a different
route because this person

doesn't have anything to do with
the industry.

It could be as somebody that is
into drinks, but it's not from

the industry, somebody that has
nothing to do with never heard

what a podcast is.
And then I I have to download,

you know, the the application
for them.

Ultimately this is the things
that you know you were able to

tell a story back to the
beginning of the conversation

about word of mouth.
Know you know if these people

and you know two people, three
people and then another person.

And then sometimes I get
recommended by random people

that have no idea who they are.
I get a message on LinkedIn as

like I would like to have a call
with you.

You know, you got recommended by
this friend and the marketing

director that was working in
this company and he was or she

was recommended you by these
other person with, you know and

all these names.
I have no idea who these people

are, you know and it's just
because it travels.

Why?
Because of the consistent

messaging, you know, of what I
talked about.

So if you want to build bottom
up, if you're launching a brand,

if you want to do it, this is
the person you have to follow.

Yeah, absolutely.
What you said, you know, doing

the non scalable, right?
Talking 30 minutes to one person

in order to get one follow that
may or may not listen to you.

You know, they might listen to
an episode and then you know two

years later they might remind
remember you again, I think it

goes back to what you said.
If you if you do a great job and

be upfront and honest with the
audience, I think that that

tells a lot about your
personality which it clearly

shows that you care about this
business and that's why you

really started the podcast to
correct me if I'm wrong.

But it really shows that you
care about this aspect.

Listeners understand that you
know they they can pick up the

bullshit and they will listen
and recommend you because you're

doing it because it really is in
your heart.

So I think it's one of the best
ways to do anything.

Start a a brand, do a podcast,
doing anything personal or

anything in terms of your life.
It's one of the Great North

Stars I think that we should all
follow.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And and actually building of

what you just said that it, it's
interesting because I was having

a couple of drinks on Christmas
night, you know, like another

Christmas Eve like the the night
after 25th.

And you know I went to this
friend of mine and he's a

restaurant owner and basically
was a gathering for industry

people, you know, all the chefs
and waiters and everybody

because the restaurant was
closed then, you know.

So I was invited as one of the
few, let's say known.

And I was part of the extended
team, so to say.

And and I remember that when I
was talking to this person that

explaining what I do and how I
do it and so on.

And and she told me, you're
crazy.

You know, like you are like
where where'd you find the time

to do all this?
Like you're you're obsessed with

this, right.
And I said yes, I am.

And then my friend who's the
restaurant owner that passed by

and just listened to the the
tale of the conversations, like

he stopped and he said if you're
not obsessed, you will never

succeed on anything, you know.
And I love that thing, you know,

it just like it was like
literally like 3 seconds of my

friend and he made me think and
I said, actually, you're right,

you know, it's not about, you
know, there is this guy, Justin

Welch that I follow on social
media and he's, he's always

talking about don't pick a
niche, you know, pick your

obsession.
You know, what are you obsessed

about?
It's not about what you're

interested because I'm
interested in many things.

I'm obsessed about a few things.
And those are the things that

you can drive.
And I read on your website the

story, what drove you, the
heritage, your father, You know,

the Meraki.
It's clear that there is a

special drive behind it now that
that pushes you further when

it's raining, when the laptop
doesn't switch on, when the

distillery has a power failure
and all this things that happen.

And you're thinking like who
told me to do this, you know,

why am I doing this?
But ultimately, you know we are

all in in this one.
And and ultimately it's also

about the founders journey.
I I reflect on this many, many

times.
You know, it's a lonely journey

sometimes.
No, because we are out there

with people.
You know we talk to people all

the time and so on.
But actually we are by ourselves

now.
So having this kind of

conversation like we're having
now, it's, you know?

People from the other side of
the world with totally different

background, with totally
different industry, but let's

say skills or like you know
specifics in the the industry

the same.
Ultimately we share the same

pain.
There's people out there that

are passionate about something,
whether they they make shoes or

they make blue jeans or they
make Brandy or a podcasts or a

consulting company, you know,
they care about something

specifically and they go for it
now.

And this is what the the message
that I want to give to the

listeners of the of the podcast
is like no matter how hard it

is, you know, like you're not
alone and there's a lot of

people out there struggling as
you are.

And you know we can all learn
from each other.

And that's the ultimate role of
you know what what I do with the

podcast, what you do with the
podcast, sharing information

that we we would otherwise keep
for ourselves.

I mean we could, we could have
not recorded this and this could

have been a a normal video call
that we would make each other

and we will find out.
No that's a that's a great point

the the obsession I think you
know cuz without that I would

personally quit a long time ago.
I wouldn't still be due from the

podcast of the business.
It's it's it's really tough.

As you said, it's very can be.
You can feel very lonely even

even when you have a big staff.
It doesn't matter the position

that you are within the
business, you know, from a sales

to a distiller to marketing it,
you can feel very lonely in in

that role.
One of the examples that I bring

with the podcast is many years
ago I had to release a podcast

when my father passed away.
I still did it.

You know it takes that level of
dedication and some people might

take it wrong.
But you know I didn't feel that

month to release a podcast, but
I decided let me be consistent

and I think that's what what my
dad would want.

But it's also understand that
yes, it does take obsession in

some areas in order to to be
able to make it because it's

it's hard.
You know you you're going to

send the e-mail and you're going
to hear no responses.

You're going to call and you're
going to hear no responses.

You're going to go to the
account have a great visit, but

no orders.
We tend to blame ourselves.

You know we kind of spin in our
in our mind but it at the end of

the game there's there's so much
that we can do.

But being obsessed, I think is
it's a good way, hopefully in

being obsessed in a good way,
not in a bad way.

It does take patience in order
to be in this.

Business.
Just clarifying this for the

listeners.
I mean, when we talk about

obsession, and I'm speaking for
you as well, you know, he's not

obsessed in in this kind of like
crazy hustling, You know, like I

don't sleep and I don't see my
family.

I'm just working all the time
and so on.

It's just that it's just like
about caring.

I wrote an article once.
Don't be the guy at the party

that is on it's it's in all the
photos.

But be the person who refills
the fridge that is getting empty

so that you know you can get the
the party going.

Is this kind of things that you
have to care about?

Because I I remember like one
once I was at 50th birthday of a

friend of mine and I didn't know
anybody there.

And it was my wife and I and,
you know, I was just there.

And and then I put myself in
their shoes and there were,

there were like a bottles of
champagne at the beginning of

the evening.
And we were like a small group,

maybe like 20 people.
And there were this full bottles

of champagne and empty glasses
all around me.

I just took the bottle and for a
couple of hours before dinner, I

was a waiter, basically, you
know, the champagne bottles, I

opened them and you know, that
just the stuff didn't show up.

And I was just like fooling.
And then I remember I was

sitting next to a lady and she
was like, yeah, I saw what you

were doing.
It's very interesting, you know,

like how you took that that task
now because nobody told me, but

I was like, OK, it's not going
to be my friends nor his wife,

you know, like they need to
enjoy this evening.

For me, it's, it's a 50th
birthday of of a friend, You

know, it's not my 50th birthday.
It's not my wife's.

It's not my daughter is not.
It's it's like I'm a guest like

any anybody else, you know.
I want them to enjoy and they

shouldn't think about feeling
glasses because I hate to feel

glasses when it's my party, you
know, So and and this is the

kind of obsession or commitment,
It's like their attention to

details on Carrie when nobody's
watching.

So as they call it.
Exactly.

Yeah.
Yeah.

No, do do the things where
nobody's watching.

Yeah, absolutely.
Whether it be the podcast or as

we talked earlier about an event
or you know doing something that

really you've done it for the
100th time you don't feel like

doing it but but it's still
required to be done in order to

you know inch a little bit of
forward in that that type of

obsession.
I think that's that's absolutely

keys loving what you do because
it it drives everything else

from the back end.
Now fantastic.

Fantastic.
Let's wrap it up with first of

all, how how can people find you
and the winery and distillery,

but also you know, like a couple
of books to want to give some

inspirations or to our listeners
on what you like to do and how

you like to close the the
episodes.

Absolutely.
No, I I love books.

So yeah, that's one of the
questions that I ask every guest

is what book they recommend
because I I usually pick up the

book also without one of the
past guests.

I think Daniel Soar with
Coltsville's distillery, I think

it's one of the the recent ones
that I read.

It's called Spirit Guide in
Search of an Authentic Life.

Very short book, but it talks
about how Dan really started the

business and it's a great little
short story.

I I read it within a couple
nights very, very close to my

heart just because I feel I'm on
the same path.

So it's a great book.
What I mentioned earlier, The

Winemaker by Richard Peterson, a
great book If you're into the

wine story, if you like wine, if
you want to know a little bit

about the history, at least from
the Napa side and then you know

from other books, Atomic Habits.
I think it's one of my all time

favorites.
It's a it's a great book.

Those are the the top that come
to mind and the best way to

connect with us is listen to the
podcast.

If you're into the production
side of the business, it's a

great podcast.
Distillery nation.

That's a great way to hear my
voice, but also social media at

Mastroganis Distillery on
Instagram and then

mastroganisdistillery.com on on
the web.

Fantastic, fantastic.
And I would say that this

podcast and your podcasts are
nice.

You know they're very
complementary, you know be in

each other because you know you
focus more on the hardcore stuff

for distilling and that side of
part of the of the business.

And I I, I focus more on the
commercialization and you know

what happens outside.
Of the doors.

Yes.
It's like you're the first part

of the of the journey and I'm
the second one.

So fantastic, so fantastic.
So thanks a lot Elias.

It was a pleasure and I I wish
you happy New Year.

Happy 2024 and I I hope you will
be as obsessed as you are today

and I wish you all the all the
best to you and and your family.

Thank you, Chris.
Thank you for having me.

It's been a pleasure.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 50 and 51.

If you enjoyed it, please read
it, comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building

brands from the bottom up.