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Every man passes through the same fire. Leaving home. Building something. Losing himself somewhere in the middle of it. Watching it all change. Almost none of us are handed a map.
The Missing Conversation is a podcast about the passages that define a man's life — and the honest conversations that should have happened along the way but didn't. Each episode, host Steve Evans sits down with a man who's been through it and asks what he knows now that he wishes someone had told him then.
No frameworks. No advice columns. Just the real account, from the inside.
The circle that should have existed. It does now.
Larry 0:00
We're essentially empty nesters, and one thing my wife and I are doing is working to reclaim who we are as individuals. Love my wife, I call her the world's greatest mom, world's greatest wife. And sometimes when you're the world's greatest mom, you can really get encapsulated in that role, and so when the kids have moved on in my mind, as they should, you know, kind of on into life, what the definition of mom or dad is has to evolve, because you're not caretaking 24/7 you're more of an advisor, and so what does that look like? My wife can really, you know, lean into being fully involved, and I'm like, "Well, wait, hold on, babe, you know it's us now, you know, remember us back in the 90s, yeah, that's us now, get time back, and let's enjoy each other, and if one of them come to us, I'm like, hey, well, if I were you, I would do xyz, here's my advice, good luck with that, and the kids know that at the end of the day, both mom and dad are in their corners. We fully support them, but we're practicing, and again, as a couple, you know, loosening the grip and letting them experience life as well as experience the choices that they make, good, bad, or ugly, and just letting that work, give them advice, you know, I would do that versus this, but hey, it's you, I'm still cheering for you the way, do you think I
Steven Evans 1:44
thank you very, very much for being here today, and for being willing to share your story honestly and openly with me. But with the people who are tuning in, I think that you'll have a, you know, a lot to share, and the folks who are listening will have a lot to take away from this conversation. I've been very much looking forward to this, so again, thank you very much. You know, I always like to begin these conversations really understanding and taking a look back, thinking through what was the identity of this individual at high school, then perhaps even in college, and then as that transitions through to career, and then work, and later, so if we were to begin, I always say, where you know, where would you begin your story? You know, when was the time that you left home? Bring us back to that, that day.
Larry 2:31
Yeah, so first of all, thanks again for the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation. I enjoy these different things. I would say, for me to begin, if we rewind the tape, go all the way back to Virginia, that's where I'm from, Charlottesville, Virginia, born and raised there. Oh, my, my formative years were there, but to answer your question, the first thing I'm thinking of, it literally is the first time I think I traveled away from home, had to do with basketball. I'm a former basketball player, which we'll talk about a little bit later, but I was, um, let's see, going into the 11th grade, so the summer going to the 11th grade. This is 1989 so I'm dating myself here, but, um, but the situation was this: I was, you know, young and up and coming young basketball guy. I've always been tall. I remember two of my heights when I was in the first grade, I was four feet nine inches tall. So my first grade picture, me and the teacher, almost eye to eye. Yep.
Steven Evans 3:34
Oh my gosh,
Larry 3:34
there is that. And then I remember when I was 13, I was six five, and so I thought for sure I'm gonna be a seven footer, all this stuff there. I'm six eight to answer that lingering question out there, but in high school at this time, back to the moment, the situation when I left home, I was going to this basketball camp, and it was a big time basketball camp, was a national level camp, they invited players from all around the country. My high school coach at the time thought it would be a very good exposure opportunity, play against some big-time players, and all of that. Push your skills, and you can also get recruited for different colleges, and I remember going up there. This is Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and so it drew a lot of kids from New York, Philadelphia, Boston, you know, all these big time schools or big time cities, and here I am, I'm a, you know, a little country boy, you know, you know, from a small town in Virginia, didn't really have a big name in terms of, like, oh, he's an up and coming next generation player, but I had a couple things going for me. I could run, because I used to run track and field too. I could jump, and I had good grades, and so I know that's gonna get me something. I also knew that going up there, like, I know I'm not gonna be the best player, but I sure as heck not gonna be the worst player, and we're gonna find out where I land, so that's. Kind of my mentality going into it, but the interesting thing, this is where I pull in my dad, you know, he saw it as a good opportunity. Our family, I'll consider us lower middle class in terms of that, you know, just both parents worked, manual labor was a big part of my life growing up, and I remember him, you know, recognizing the opportunity, but the price tag was pretty steep, and we didn't have some big college savings thing saved up for me, we just had a few savings bonds that my grandfather and grandmother gave me when I was born, and so those matured a little bit to basically the price of the camp, and so my dad was like, "Son, I'm stressed, because if you go to this, if I pay for this, that's that's college, you know, that's your college money. And I was like, Dad, that's all good. I'm feeling confident in what you all have poured into me. I'm willing to bet on myself. I'm gonna go up there and I'm gonna give me a scholarship. We're gonna see, we're gonna roll the dice and see what we got. And that was like a.. I could tell for him it was like a burden that he was carrying, in a way, it kind of was a little bit of a relief, because you know, if I go up there, spend the money, and it doesn't work out, then you know, maybe community college, maybe go into a trade or something like that, but I'm like, hey, I'm willing to put a bet on myself, let's go up there and see what happens, and so go up there, over 1000 players are at the camp, super competitive, and to make a long story short, I was able to get in there and demonstrate, play hard, all these things, and at the end of the camp, they rank you, I got ranked in the top 100 so yeah, top 10% or so, you know, until I started getting recruited, you know, by a number of schools, you know, and, oh, by the way, I get you got good grades and good test scores, and so I didn't really realize it at the time, but that kind of bumped me into an extra category of like, oh, he's really recruitable, he's not only talented, you know, there's a lot of good potential that we can work with, but he's got grades, and so we could get into a bunch of stuff. Wow, and so I'm like, wow, you know, if you bet on yourself, you know, you work hard, take confidence in what you got, go to the big stage, and like, why not,
Steven Evans 7:08
right? And why
Speaker 1 7:09
not? And
Steven Evans 7:10
that's the confidence I feel like that comes from believing yourself, but also putting in the work, and I feel like you alluded to that also in the, you know, earlier comment around, you know, my parents were working, they were working hard, and then, you know, not necessarily, you know, well off, but they were models for you in terms of how to perhaps kind of put your nose head down and just kind of get things done. Can you talk to me more about sort of their influence?
Larry 7:37
Yeah, yeah, so one thing I'll say I wouldn't necessarily count it as a blessing at the time, but looking back it definitely was the whole idea of manual labor. So I have my shared chores again. This is Virginia, so small town, and spent a lot of time in rural areas as well, so farming, you know, landscaping work, a lot of physical labor, and so there's a physical fitness part to that, but to watch my parents and grandparents on both sides of my family, um, similar stuff in North Carolina on my mom's side, but just to witness that, I learned that, okay, that's a part of life, it's what you do, it's a great way to spend time with people together, you know, working together to do something or to produce something, and it created, like, a - I'll call it a physical motor in me that I've still carried to this day, not landscape and stuff and things like that, but you know, I still got that energy, and it's one interesting thing about this too, is like from a corporate tech point of view, you know, there's a lot of interesting things going on. You know, layoffs are a thing, and, like, I was telling somebody this before, like, if push comes to shove, you know, and if fortunes change and I'm no longer where I am, I'm not going to starve. Like, if push comes to shove, I know how to grow plants, I know how to take care of animals, like, I won't starve, I may not necessarily want to do that, but I can,
Speaker 1 9:05
yeah,
Larry 9:05
and so I got, you know, and then there's some hustle stuff, even in terms of being adaptive and resilient, too,
Steven Evans 9:11
right? So, yeah, that definitely I feel like would come through in your school performance, but then I think it has a lot to come through, or excuse me, to do with your success as a player, right, and that commitment to perhaps the repetition of training and the commitment to excellence, and making sure perhaps your coaches were the right, you know, coaches to help you along your journey. And after, let's say, this time period of, you know, where you were ranked in the top 100 you became, you know, a recruitable athlete. Talk to me about what you felt like at that point you needed to do to matter. Was it excel at the sport? Was it find perhaps that next step? What was on your mind at that point? Of yeah, this is what matters.
Larry 9:53
Yeah. Well, one quick context with my high school basketball team, we were loaded. Oh my goodness, we. We had so many players, great players, do a whole podcast on that, and I would say where I fell in the rank of that, I was kind of like a face in the crowd, like not necessarily one of the best players, athletic, all that, you know, but good enough to be on the team, and so after that summer experience, going into my junior year, the first game we played against was against the state champion of in another division in Virginia, and they had this big dude named Luther Bates, and we actually first met a few years before at this other camp. We're both 13 years old, I'm tall and skinny, Luther, I'm a little bit taller than him, but he's very strong, and I remember the coach, and it's kind of stuck with me to answer your question at that time. He said, you know, Larry Luther is going to be your competition one day, because you guys are the same grade and everything. He can bench press 185 pounds, and this is at 13 years old, 13. Then he asked me, How much can you bench press? I'm like, Oh my goodness, right. And at that time wasn't really taking lift and weight seriously, like casually, maybe I could bench press 100 pounds, but I'm like, oh my goodness, and he said it like, you know, you guys go on a collision course sooner or later, and that's what he's doing. What are you doing? And that really stayed with me, and so fast forward that junior year, that's when we played, you know, head to head, and I got him nice, excellent. It was a great battle, like we both played well. We played each other twice, we split, we beat them the first game, they beat us the second game, like a two epic battle type of thing,
Steven Evans 11:36
right?
Larry 11:37
But going into it, I remember that original conversation when we first crossed paths, but I'm like, I proved myself on a big stage up in Pittsburgh. I've been doing hard work, I know you've been doing hard work too, because he, he looked great, you know. Yeah, and then that thing, and I'm like, well, hey, I got confidence in, I'm entitled to this moment too, and let's just find out who's better, and that's the mentality. I don't count that as cockiness or arrogance. It's just confidence in the work that I put in, and I'm willing to trust in the moments that are gonna happen in this game, that whatever happens, I'm gonna do my best for sure.
Speaker 1 12:20
I'm
Larry 12:21
gonna listen to the coach, listen to my teammates, make adjustments on the fly to stay effective, and then at the end of the day, if we win or lose, I hope we win, but if we don't, I know I at least try my best, right? And I can be at peace with that,
Steven Evans 12:33
exactly, and it comes from this idea of hard work, the element of trying your best and making sure that you're giving your 100% and that is there's nothing left, right, and that is at the end of the day a job well done, and I think it translates to what it sounds like a sort of person who's motivated and driven by the idea of excellence and the idea of putting in the work that's required to meet that bar, but personally holding yourself accountable to making sure there's nothing left in the tank at the end of the day when you're pursuing a goal, is that sound like
Speaker 1 13:08
yeah, yeah,
Larry 13:09
yeah. And in the way I unpack that piece is just staying curious. How can I stay curious in the moment and just be encaptured by that, which ultimately kind of gets into like just dive into the process and don't overly worry about the outcomes, and just stay curious about what's in front of you. Zoom out, take a step back to see if what you're doing aligns to the goals and outcomes you want. If they do, great, keep going. If not, okay, what adjustments can I make? How can I stay curious to keep trending in the direction that I want to go,
Steven Evans 13:45
right? And was there anything at that time that was maybe building maybe underneath without your awareness or something that emerged maybe in a later time that you had to maybe reckon with?
Larry 13:57
Yeah, I would say building a lot of confidence through those times, so junior year had a really good year, senior year as well. Never won the state championship, we were always, we were top five in the state all four years, and the team, the other teams were just great. We almost made it, but through that experience was able to get, you know, recruited, you know, a couple Ivy League schools, ended up going to the Naval Academy to play ball there, and I would say the thing that emerged is this. So, going from high school to college in sports, it's next level, because you're one of the best team players in the state. In Virginia, for me, I get to the Naval Academy, and I cross paths with the next version of Luther Bates, which is Derek Wall, a good, good friend of mine. He's one of the best players in North Carolina. Wow, and his team won the state championship. And so I get there, and the first time I met him was when we got to the Naval Academy, and I'm like, oh, he's six eight, just like me. He's kind of built pretty good, he can jump like me, he. Actually has a better jump shot, and we're both competing for the same position, so how's this gonna work out? And I'm like, ooh, and so the thing I guess that was developing that really came to light then was when you're in the same space with a bunch of people that are like-minded and you're pushing each other in a good way, you know, for, for mutual or collective excellence, you like reach a whole nother level of potential, all kinds of things, not only on a sports thing, but mentally, socially, emotionally, a number of different levels.
Steven Evans 15:37
Definitely, I agree, and I feel like when you are working, as you said, you know, as part of a team that's all committed to that singular excellence goal, right? And you're also, you know, willing to make the sacrifice, because sometimes it is of putting in that 100% which often means setting aside a pursuit of something else, right? Because, as you know, you are, you know, playing ball, you're not maybe going out partying as much, or you know, you're not like maybe doing other things that other people are doing because of your dedication, because of your focus.
Speaker 1 16:08
Yeah,
Steven Evans 16:08
and that's the sacrifice, that's the choice that you've made.
Larry 16:12
Yeah, now it's one little thing with that, for full disclosure, of course. Yeah, it took me a couple years to be completely focused, and so what I mean by that, I tried to burn the candle at both ends, and so the Naval Academy, top-notch school, military school, but at the same time it's only what, 20 to 30 minutes, no traffic away from Washington DC, Baltimore, Maryland, and there's a whole lot of fun and distractions, those are just two locations. There's a bunch of other places too, right. And so I tried to do both, and my first couple years was, I'll just call it the learning curve piece. Wasn't playing or being a good student, I wasn't hitting on all cylinders all the way around, good enough to be there, but not really realizing my potential, but that came around, you know, junior senior year, things get well, maybe to the NCAA tournament, you know, my junior year, which is like my little 15 minutes of fame type of stuff, been on ESPN a couple times, all that, yeah, and so, but yeah, so it was a journey, you know, to that,
Steven Evans 17:19
yeah, and was, I guess, walk me through the transition, you know, you're making it in, you got to college, playing ball in college, your junior year, senior year, starting to think about what am I going to do for my career, you know, and that's always a challenging point, because you kind of switch from learning and kind of taking in what other people are imbuing in you to producing, and that in and of itself can be jarring, and it can be, you know, discomforting. So, can you walk me through that passage of, you know, senior year to maybe your first couple of roles, and what that looked like?
Larry 17:54
Yeah, and this is where I think sports, maybe musical performances, I think helps to prepare people versus people that don't, you know, involve in those types of events or activities, and what I mean by that is, in sports, you know, kind of taking more agency and control of your future. I learned that on the court, you know, in terms of certain plays like Larry, we're gonna give you the ball and you do your thing, and so being able to control the destiny of that play, you know, or actively influence a game was a way for me to practice taking agency and living with the consequences altogether. But to answer your question directly, with transitioning from the college piece to the professional world, in the military, you know, you go after the Naval Academy, you go into active duty service. With that, you know, you can pick which job, which career path you want to go into. It's based on class rankings and stuff like that. So, there was a bit of nervousness, but at the same time, I'll call it hustle, because I'm used to pressure, partly from sports, partly just from growing up lower middle class, you know. So there are some days like not much on the table, you know, for dinner or things like that, or money's tight. And so pressure was not unfamiliar, and the thing I learned from that is when there's pressure or constraints. Okay, how can I imagine or be creative or think about it in a different way in order to achieve either the goal I want or a similar goal. And when I'm thinking back to that, that's essentially what I did, because I ended up choosing this. I was an economics major in school, chose the supply core, which is like the business and logistics dimension of the military,
Steven Evans 19:44
and so, through, you know, networking connections, relationships, those things, they're making sure my grades are good, so I have the opportunity to choose that job, right, so doing all those different things to engineer or create that opportunity. Unity, and that's that's what happened, and at that time, you know, you're choosing, you know, as you mentioned, a new specific profession, and leveraging your studies to get there, right, as a starting point. Walk me through the thought process around who you were. I am a, you know, student jumping into a totally new realm, and I guess, how did that feel? Walk me through an example, maybe, of when you had to kind of deploy that resourcefulness when there maybe wasn't enough on the table, or you came home one day from work, or from practice, and you know you decided, hey, I'm just gonna have a protein shake tonight, because I don't have anything else right now, or something like that.
Larry 20:41
Yeah, yeah, there were different times thinking back to high school originally, because that's kind of when those at least that's when the times that were there in college. It's a different situation where a lot of those things are provided, you know, for you. But I would say, like, yeah, back in middle school, high school, you know, I, you know, go play ball, cross town, or wherever the hot games were at the park, you know, working on my thing, coming back, and I remember, yeah, there were times where it wasn't as plentiful in terms of that, and I would look in the refrigerator, and well, one interesting thing is, even when there were times where there was not like a lot of food, or a lot of abundance, there was always like the garden or just there was always something around, and then, and so it quickly turned into, okay, these might not be the choices I want, but it's better than nothing, and so being able to adjust and identify, and even recognize this is years later, that hey, even when times are tough from a money point of view, there's still the ability to produce and provide from the earth in that dimension, and so that's something that, um, you know, stuck with me there. I don't know, as a 14 year old, I mean, I didn't necessarily like it, yeah, but I wasn't starving,
Steven Evans 21:56
right? Right, and certain elements of those stories I feel like really come back to us when we get older, and they teach different lessons, you know, than they perhaps did at the, in the, in the moment. And was there any element, let's say, of surprise, you know, that when you entered your new role after the Naval Academy, perhaps something that fit before that doesn't didn't fit then, it needed to go.
Larry 22:20
Yeah, so my first duty station after, so you got the Naval Academy, and then after that you go to your trade school, or your.. it's the.. it's like a post graduate school, anywhere from six to 12 months, depending on your job, where they literally teach you your specific job. So after that time, then you get stationed, and you're in charge, you know, you're an officer, you got a bunch of people reporting into you, a lot of people are older than you, so there's an interesting dynamic there, and you're the officer, and so you're in charge, and so my first duty station, this is Kings Bay, Georgia, which is just outside of Jacksonville, Florida, South Georgia, technically across the line, and at a submarine base, but I was sure duty. Thank goodness I'm too tall for a submarine, but was shore duty working on food service, and so the difficult piece was this is that it was a very toxic situation. My boss at the time hated my direct person right underneath me, and I'm in the middle, you know. Literally, this is my first job, and both of them have been in the Navy for at least 20 years.
Steven Evans 23:28
Okay, wow, yeah.
Larry 23:29
And so they're very seasoned, you know, just a lot of just drama. And looking back, I remember being scared to death, you know, of like it's my first job, you know. So just trying to understand it all, because there's a little bit - there's a big piece of it, is the theory, because you learn how to do your job at the training school, but now it's live, so it's no more theory, right? And so you're supposed to do this and this, but this came out sideways, and so what do you do, correct? And this person didn't show up to work today, and just all those different reality types of things, learn how to do it, but just very scared to execute, because I didn't feel supported, and actually, ultimately I actually got fired from that role. Yeah,
Larry 24:11
they, they dismissed me, which was crushing. I ended up getting reassigned to another thing, and had a great military career afterwards. Yeah, but, um, but that lesson learned was, you know, fear is ooh, we all have it, number
Speaker 1 24:28
one,
Larry 24:29
but fear, if you don't know how to engage it or manage it, it'll destroy you, it'll destroy you in so many levels. Yeah, because, like, looking back, and I couldn't really talk about that experience for a few years, because after that, immediately I got assigned to the Seabees, and I had the hugest chip on my shoulder. I'm like, I'm going to show you, Uncle Sam, here's how good I am, you know. And we were great, we learned a bunch of wars, all this stuff, got a bunch of medals. Yes, we did a bunch of cool stuff, you know. My second, so I was a very good bounce back story, but it was bounced back kind of from a point of a place of anger or resentment, which kind of that can get you some, you know, mileage too. Totally, but both can lead to kind of like a burnout or a bitterness type of state, but and but my first job, that was the biggest lesson learned, is fear and being secure in who you are, and that was the first time at that level that I had really was shaken by that,
Speaker 1 25:35
yeah, yeah,
Steven Evans 25:36
especially I'm I'm sure given the age difference and seniority difference. I mean, I feel like many of us have been in situations where, especially right after school, you kind of come out and you have this head full of knowledge, as you described, but you don't have the practical experience, and so you're, you know, kind of getting pushed around, let's say, by, you know, people who've been doing it, and you know, they're saying, just take a seat and learn how you, how we do it, or something like that, right? Was there somebody who maybe gave you the key to that fear, someone who helped you maybe overcome that, that experience of I'm new, I'm not necessarily great at this yet, or I'm not necessarily, I don't know what I don't know, but was there maybe someone who came along took you under their wing or helped you there?
Larry 26:23
Yeah, there's a couple people I would say. Number one, my wife, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit later. We got married at that time when I was at that first duty station. Yeah, as the time of us are recording in December, it'll be 29 years being married. Congratulations, that's incredible. Yeah, that's a.. I'm an old married guy.
Steven Evans 26:44
That's a goal, that's the goal. I mean, that's the goal. Yeah, that's that's true.
Larry 26:49
That is true. And so I would say my wife, Deirdre, for sure. You know, so just being able to.. I'll call it like a safe harbor type of experience, because you go out all day getting beat up by all that toxicity, least be able to come home and at least just relax for a little while before you got to go back out the next day.
Speaker 1 27:08
Yeah,
Larry 27:08
so there's that. And then there were a couple other gentlemen, couple in the military, as well as just a couple of civilian good friends, part of the church group that we were with, couple of them played different roles. One person was just to listen and just let me unload and talk. Another person, a little bit older, just giving advice and just pointers, and for me that was good, because it felt like it was similar to my basketball days in high school and college, of like a coach or like a locker room, you can at least retreat back to the locker room to get yourself together to go back out to play the second half or something like that, and so that was good, you know, for me, and I guess kind of fast forward now, I do similar things for, you know, younger folks coming up, at least I try to do that.
Steven Evans 27:54
Yeah, absolutely, that's really important, and it's so good that you're, you're doing that for others, because there's so many people who really just need that extra, a little push, a little to feel seen, to feel like what they're doing matters, and that's awesome that you're giving back in that way.
Larry 28:13
Yeah, one other quick thing, too, is I tried to, I called it generational choices, and so, like, from that first experience, that toxic experience. Looking back, I can see a number of just dynamics that were just wrong or off, and I'm like, okay, I can learn from that personally, but I want to make it a personal point going forward. You know, if I'm a manager or in charge of stuff, I am not going to pay that stuff forward,
Speaker 1 28:40
right?
Larry 28:40
If anything, I'm gonna do the opposite and see what happens there, and end that experience with me, and just pass it on in the form of lessons learned versus toxicness.
Steven Evans 28:52
Right? Right, and it sounds like even then you, in those moments, those challenging roles, you realized what was not healthy for you to operate under, right? You mentioned the anger or aggression, those types of things that maybe could lead to burnout in the long term. You know, how you learned a better way? Can you speak to us, maybe more about that, that way that you learned, right? Because you had to set down perhaps a couple of things, you know, maybe levers of motivation that you know tried this didn't work out long term, try something else. What was that thing that you found that worked?
Larry 29:26
Yeah, for me, lot of different things, but I'll narrow it down. I would say to my faith practice, so I identify, you know, as a Christian. I follow that religion. I also have relatives in my family that are part of the Muslim faith as well as the Jewish faith too, and so there's a, there's a multi, you know, I try to pull from those, but primarily the Bible in my Christian faith, and so I would say really, I guess having at least enough sense, I'll give myself a little bit credit, like I'm super. Angry and super resentful right now. I know that's probably not going to get me that far, but I don't have an answer. Okay, let me look up some stuff in the Bible to see if it can at least substitute or just a different point of view, and let me just practice those things and see what happens. And that's literally how I did
Steven Evans 30:18
it. And was there maybe a passage of scripture, or maybe a chapter that you maybe clung to more closely than others in that time, or
Larry 30:29
yeah, well, there's a few, but I'll just say one that popped in my head. This is Mark 12. This is a conversation Jesus was having with somebody, and his point was love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And then the conversation goes on into a bunch of other things, that is a big one that I cling to, and for a number of different reasons, even the book of Proverbs, because there's a lot of good practical living types of things there. The book of Ecclesiastes, um, Solomon, that's a really good lived experience book of the Bible, because, uh, King Solomon, you know, he did a whole lot of things, but he's like, hey, at the end of the day, you know, love God is the is the point, you can do a number of things to your heart is full. There's a number of lessons learned, you know. I try not to label things as good, bad, or ugly, but just there's a number of lessons learned. And those lessons, do they align with your goals? If so, great. If not, how can you make different choices? And from that, you get a number of wise things that can come from that, yeah.
Steven Evans 31:44
Excellent, and I mean transitioning now, I suppose, then to today, you know, when the responsibility of marriage perhaps comes along, you know, alluded to it, but how does that new identity, that new partner layer on to this very complex individual you had been before.
Larry 32:04
Yeah, it gets more complex, yeah. You know, partly just because you just got more people involved, right? So, my, my wife, Deirdre, so it's an interesting thing, because you know, marriage, and I'll just say marriage in the Western American context, you know, to become one, is it? And so you're, you know, you really focus on how can we live life together, and you know, yield to each other, basically collaborating, teamwork, negotiating all those things there, but at the same time, how do you do that and carry those roles and still maintain who you are as an individual, that's a balancing act, because, and then different people do it different ways, so I'm not saying I got the, got this, you know, the answer to it, but I'd say it is a delicate balance of trying to have your role as a husband, as a father, you know, got three kids, um, three adult kids now, my youngest is 24 by the way. So
Steven Evans 33:01
amazing,
Larry 33:01
got some old ones, old babies, and so you know through the baby times all the way through the teenager years and all those things there. How do you navigate being a husband, being a father, and still maintain who, who is LG, that's my nickname, you know, the core of who I am, and it's a continual negotiating, aligning, building trust dance that doesn't look the same from one day, or a month, or a year to the next, because you have to adapt and evolve, and and you're going to make mistakes, and be generous with grace, I would say, is my, you know, advice to those who are listening with that, and stay curious. So, a lot of similar things that I did when I was learning basketball, and just understand that there's a number of different hats you're wearing as a man, I self-identify as a black man, which brings an additional, I call it, level of tax in the corporate American context. How do you balance all those different things without going crazy? It's, um, it's like a lifelong thing in terms of practicing and adjusting and getting better.
Steven Evans 34:20
Absolutely. And in this time period, was there anything that took you by surprise? You know, perhaps maybe blindsided you, you know, like I wasn't ready for that, or I didn't expect it to be like that.
Larry 34:32
I would say the biggest thing, I guess, is coming to mind. I'm thinking about marriage and family, yeah, cuz with my wife and I, you know, just the time to get on the same page, you know, so there's that kind of new good days, bad days, all that, and then with parenting, you know, working with the kids, all those things, there, yeah, I guess there wasn't necessarily anything surprising, because I'm the oldest of four, to give you some context. Oldest of four kids, and so I saw my parents and grandparents, you know, just do those things, and so I had an idea of what parenting looked like. Okay, I got one. Actually, this came to mind. Sure. Sleep here. We go, because my younger two, three kids, my younger two, they're two years apart, and so at one point in time they're both in diapers, and so I laugh, especially tell younger people I do not remember the decade of the 2000s I only remember September 11, sadly for obvious reasons, and then when President Obama got elected, and everything else is a blur, I was so exhausted. Oh my goodness, because husband, father, all of that, and I'm working in Silicon Valley too, so pulling all these hours, you know, all this stuff, dealing with, you know, I could, I could deal with it better because I learned from my military experience with similar toxic dynamics, but I had more wits about me to be able to handle it and navigate it, but you, but that burns calories to do that, and so, yeah, you, if you have young kids, especially multiple young kids, you're not gonna get sleep for like a good five seven,
Speaker 1 36:16
at least the
Larry 36:17
consistent night sleep,
Steven Evans 36:19
right? And like, was there anything you had built personally in that time to maybe it was a routine or way of thinking or a morning practice or something that you decided could help you really get through that period of I'm not sleeping, got young kids, I'm in Silicon Valley trying to make, you know, my name here and all of the above. How do you, was there something you built that helped.
Larry 36:42
Yeah, I would go back to some of my old stuff, mainly because I just grew up from that experience, but physical fitness, so just exercising. I was actually still playing basketball, like different summer leagues, semi-pro leagues, and stuff like that, partly just because my age, you know, couldn't do that now. Oh my goodness, I'm in my mid 50s and trying to do that stuff, but you know, at that time still in my 20s, early 30s, and so still had resilience physically to be able to play and just doing fitness drills, even though I was exhausted, but it was kind of like my release or escape to kind of get into something that I'm super familiar with, and I get a lot of positive energy from, even though it's very physically demanding, but I just got that fulfillment there, and I continue that pattern even through today. Even this morning, you know, I exercise early in the morning, I do a bunch of a number of different things there, try to eat right, try to look forward, because I got, you know, other things kind of forward looking. My wife's great uncle, Uncle Dennis, real quick. He is, he is in his mid 70s, and he still plays pickup basketball four to five times a week, pickup ball in rural Georgia, which is crazy. Like, it, Uncle Dennis is the man, I'm like, okay, that's the goal, if I can have longevity like that, that is the idea. And so, what practices can I, you know, deploy consistently to at least have a chance to do that
Steven Evans 38:12
right? And I guess so. The longevity becomes the target, and there's always things going on in our life to make us either choose the practices that you know will help us achieve that goal, or or not, right. And so, when pressure comes on, it makes making those decisions hard and harder. Sometimes you might make a decision on autopilot, you know. You know, I'm super stressed and tired, or something. This didn't go right, I'm gonna maybe have that drink, or I'm gonna, whatever, right, and there are advices that come out, or maybe that we carry when under pressure, and I think when you're providing that also becomes an element of identity, but also pressure.
Speaker 1 38:53
Yeah,
Steven Evans 38:53
and so can you talk to us about that pressure of providing, especially for your family and three children in Silicon Valley, and through the ups and downs of, you know, the markets, and what is it that helped you kind of stay true to this identity we've been talking about.
Larry 39:09
Yeah, and that's real pressure, because the other thing, dynamic too, with our family, um, I'll just call it a single income family, so my wife were able to, um, you know, stayed at home with the kids for the most part all the way through high school, for all of them, roughly, you know, and so she had a career in that sense of doing that, and so from an income point of view, you're 100% right, there's a lot of pressure, and so pressure plus the complexities of just a black man in corporate America, and all this other stuff, yeah, it was tough, you know. There are definitely good days and bad days. The way I respond to pressure typically is I tend to work harder or just have that motor, and that literally goes back to manual labor, sports, all these.. you grind, you know, there's some goodness in that. There's also a danger. Dimension to that as well, but the other thing that I would say too is having conversations with people you trust, and so having a good collective group of other individuals that you can just talk like this, and they can share thoughts, point of view, almost like a judgment-free zone, you can just talk and kind of let down those, are you know, in a quick sense, those are the key things that just help with that, you know, to help sustain those things and hustle too. So, like, develop an active network, always have a job, but kind of look at, you know, what are some other potential jobs, or read the market, is something going on, those things like that,
Steven Evans 40:40
right? Interesting, and so sounds like resourcefulness, but also making sure that you're, you have a ability and target out in front of you that is different than simply providing for family. That sounds like, because the goal could become expanding my network, let's say, by, you know, end of the year, so that I don't feel so reliant on this one income, right? It gave you steps to take, so that it wasn't just about I have to bring in this level of income, no matter what. Am I hearing that correctly? Yeah, yeah,
Larry 41:15
that, and with basketball, like I finished basketball officially, officially after college, you know, did some semi-pro stuff, but basically it was basically done after that. But I was able to reincarnate and keep basketball going in the form of training, and so I would train young players, and so that was actually a stream of income, main stream of income too. Wow, and so for me it was like recess, because to teach a young kid how to do a jump shot, that I can do that in my sleep. Yeah, you know, but if a, you know, if little Johnny's mom and dad want to pay me some money to do that, I'm like, hey, let's do it
Steven Evans 41:49
right.
Larry 41:49
Anything is a cognitive break from the grind of work,
Steven Evans 41:52
correct?
Larry 41:52
And is cash, yes?
Steven Evans 41:54
And it connects you back to that part of yourself, you know, that has served you so well over the years.
Speaker 1 42:00
Yeah,
Steven Evans 42:00
it probably felt like it's interesting. I often don't share so much on the on the pod about myself. Perhaps we'll do this, you know, an interview with me later, but it was like cycling for me. Cycling, I got very much into it. I was, you know, doing 50 100 mile bike rides and just trying to figure out how to be the endurance athlete that I saw, you know, on Peloton or, you know, out there in Tour de France, and it was so interesting for me, because it brought me back to a time in my life when I was a kid riding a bike in my neighborhood, you know, I didn't have a car, but I knew that if I had a bike, I could leave my house and I could go wherever I wanted, and I can be free for a moment, and that was that freedom, that experience of kind of hearkening back to that responsible free time of a kid, you know, that was cycling for me, so I can definitely understand how the basketball and helping train other kids, especially that element of training, really helps.
Larry 42:55
Yeah, and I found myself with training, you know, having that call it recess, that sensation of freedom, working with a lot of young kids, and then there was a networking effect that was happening in that world, and so I was able to, I was able to train a couple of players that are in the NBA, the WNBA, a lot of college players, mainly young kids, but those interesting opportunities came, you know, kind of through the networking dimension of that, I'm just diving in. I'm like, hey, I'm just having fun paying for my life lessons, giving you some tips and tricks on your skills, right? And wow, look at this, and I,
Steven Evans 43:30
you know, just emerged from, you know, you being open to that opportunity. That's amazing. And it's so it sounds like there are various elements that help deal with the pressure of provision or providing for family, it's having that physical element, but also connection to your past, the connection to your prior identity, that is a reminder also of like this is who I am. But was there ever a moment where that was challenged as a parent, where you felt like maybe either not enough, or I can't be what I need to be for my family right now.
Larry 44:05
Yeah, there are many times like that, or feeling like a failure. Yeah, where you're trying to do all these different things, but either mathematically, because of the finances or something, these are just isn't adding up, or you know, and for parents that have teenage kids or young adult kids, because they're trying to spread their wings too, and that's usually when a lot of interesting interactions come up, where the kid doesn't agree or doesn't want to listen or follow,
Steven Evans 44:32
right.
Larry 44:32
And yeah, I've had those interactions, and feeling like a failure is a real thing, because I'm trying to relate to my kids, I'm trying, I'm doing all this stuff in terms of the job and all this stuff to, you know, provide a college fund for them, which is something that I didn't have. My kids, I love them to death. Yeah, they weren't super into basketball like me, and so I'm like, okay, so they like a typical. Or traditional, you know, path forward from a profession is probably going to be their way into school, which is fine, but mathematically that means somebody's not writing a scholarship for you, or at least a sports scholarship, and so that, and I end up trying to balance not coming off like an old crotchety old man that's just saying, son, you did it wrong, or you need to do this better, and all this trying to listen, but at the same time knowing that, hey, you're currently trending on a destructive path, probably because I was either on that path years ago, and I either have some of those outcomes, or I can see where this is heading, and then people making their own choices,
Speaker 1 45:44
right,
Steven Evans 45:44
which can hurt my feelings and feeling alone too. And that's where, you know, having those outlet conversations, because I've had those over time, it's ebbed and flowed. Some, some years I just didn't have as many, other years I had plenty, but yeah, that I'll just say the feeling of being alone and feeling like a failure, or the sensations that I, that I got from that, and that's often what we hear when it comes to sort of that long middle period where you're working, you know, your kids are not necessarily young anymore, but they have a couple years left before they leave the home. You're navigating, as you alluded to, right? The challenging, adolescent years where they're trying to become their own person, but they're, you know, that long middle where often I hear that there's a loneliness. There's also a feeling of, am I doing enough? Maybe I might not be, and I guess the challenge of navigating that with kids, I can imagine probably makes it extremely difficult, especially when it comes to identity, because you want to, you know, be everything you can be for them, but you have a limit, you know, you can't, you cannot be more than you are, and I imagine that is challenging. I mean, what? Walk me through when you realized or felt like you were at the edge of your growth curve, or you felt like, oh man, I don't know if I can grow enough to be what I need to be for this for my family.
Larry 47:15
Yeah, I would say, and one quick thing to what you just shared on the basketball side, and this is where it gets especially tricky for me, because I'm working with a bunch of kids, and a lot of them either the same age as my kids or younger, and they're listening to everything I'm telling them to do, like not only basketball wise but in life and other things, and it's working out for them, and so I have all this data saying that okay, what I'm trying to tell you to do, son or daughter, I know is right, because, like, working over here,
Speaker 1 47:45
yep,
Larry 47:45
but you know, as a parent, you got veto power, and so that kind of, kind of limits the curves, and then the parents of those kids struggle with the same thing, they were like, Coach Larry, can you literally tell Johnny to do his homework, so he can be eligible next semester, I can literally tell them exactly what the parents told me, they can hear it, because Coach Larry said it, you know that type of thing, right? So I'm aware of that, but to answer your question, I would say to my son, you know, he got to the point, you know, going to college, and he has some, some neurodivergent, and so just, you know, learning paths different, and we were able to find a good college situation for him, not in California, other side of the country, good situation for him, and so we were able to, you know, between all my years working in Silicon Valley stocks and all this stuff, essentially able to scholarship him, you know, pay for the thing, no student loans, but it gets there, and you know, made some, I'll just say, choices that didn't align with the goal of staying in school, you know, got into some trouble and ended up leaving that situation, and so for me, and then I can struggle with this, is that was a lot of money that just went down the drain, and I'm like, okay, pause, you know, don't turn it into a money thing, because that is a direct path to bitterness,
Steven Evans 49:05
right?
Larry 49:06
And that'll lead to years of estrangement between the father and the son. So, I can't go there, but at the same time, I'm having these feelings, because for me to be able to be in the position to basically write a check, and it kind of sets you up, that represented years of me going out every day, grinding, dealing with all these dynamics, dealing with the pressure, all this stuff, you know, to be able to get that, and it literally essentially disappeared within a few months,
Steven Evans 49:34
right?
Larry 49:34
That I'm like, oh, that, that, that knocked the wind out of me through good conversations with my wife and a few others, they would kind of work through it, but one conclusion that I got from that, you know, multiple conclusions: money comes and goes, don't give up on your son, you know, because that's a permanent relationship, and that's a moment where, because what kind of, when, when it was made. Clear that he's coming home. He's this is no longer a path forward. There was a level of rage, upset-ness, and for me, you know, I'm Generation X, growing up in Virginia, the South, so corporal punishment was a thing. Yeah, of course, the rod was not spared, as they say in the Bible.
Speaker 1 50:22
Yeah,
Larry 50:23
and so for me, I'm like, and I wear exercise, and so I'm like, son, I can do a bunch of things that I probably shouldn't do, but I'm like, okay, I can't do that, because that will literally break the relationship forever, forever. And I seen examples of that, not only in my family, but in other families, where a situation that you know was handled the wrong way just broke relationships, and so now you have, like, holidays, funerals, and weddings, are kind of when everybody comes together, and it's really obvious, or it's really in your face, those those cracks in the relational foundation, and so just through it, just like, okay, let me just reframe, let me reset. Money comes and goes, it's gonna come and go, you know. At the end of the day, would I have done it again? I'm like, yeah, I would have bet on him, you know. I got some lessons learned, we're gonna be wise betting, sure, it's got money to burn, you know. But I'm still in your corner. I even told him this. I'm like, dude, one day you're gonna realize I'm actually in your corner, and yeah, I'm kind of being hard on you, you know, because I don't want a policeman or somebody else to either take advantage or be difficult to you, you know. I want to develop you within the safe space of our own home. Yeah, I'm gonna come off sometimes as the mean old dad, sometimes, but I'm trying to develop you for ultimately, so you can be self-sustaining, and yeah, you don't have to be totally dependent on mom and dad, is the is the big idea, no matter what career path you go into, right? Is it? And we're on that journey, you know, we're doing it. I was able to learn a lot about myself through that, and, um, and being able to admit that, yeah, that that stung, like, ooh, yeah, not just the money thing, but what the money represented, like all the years of that, and so, so, yeah, yeah, don't say that. Thank you.
Steven Evans 52:21
Thank you for sharing that example. I feel like it shows a ton of your character as a father, as a person, but I think it also will resonate very much so with our audience, who
Speaker 1 52:31
is
Steven Evans 52:32
really interested in just the dynamics between father and son, the dynamic of being a provider and maintaining the relationship with your children along that long span of years, because I think that's what we all want at the end of the day, right, is to do a good job as a father, to do a good job rearing children, so that they want to come around in the holidays, and they want to be, you know, see us as advisors in some way, so you know children leave home at the end of the day at some point, or they come back when they are trying to develop their individual identity, but when the house sort of went, went quiet, was there anything that emerged from that, let's say, from that space after your wife and you had spent years building a family, now they're out of the house for however long they are, yeah.
Larry 53:23
We're in that point right now, because I'm got so three kids, two girls and a boy. Youngest one's my boy. My two girls are out of the house. My youngest, he's still with us, sure, but he pretty much has his own schedule, and so we're essentially empty nesters. And one thing my wife and I are doing is working to reclaim who we are as individuals. Love my wife, I call her the world's greatest mom, world's greatest wife. And sometimes when you're the world's greatest mom, you can really get encapsulated in that role. And so when the kids have moved on, in my mind, as they should, you know, kind of on into life. Yes, ma, what the definition of mom or dad is has to evolve, because you're not caretaking 24/7 you're more of an advisor, and so what does that look like? And my wife and I, you know, I, I guess I'm, I can lean more into, like, hey, I'll be the advisor, I get more sleep that way, my wife can really, you know, lean into being fully involved, and I'm like, well, wait, hold on, babe, you know, it's us now, you know, remember us back in the 90s, yeah, let's get time back, and let's enjoy each other, and if one of them come to us, I'm like, "Hey, well, if I were you, I would do xyz. Here's my advice. Good luck with that. In terms of that, you know, and the kids know that at the end of the day, both mom and dad are in their corners. We fully support them, but we're practicing, and again, as a couple, you know, loosening the grip. Up and letting them experience life as well as experience the choices that they make, good, bad, or ugly, and just letting that work, and then just guiding them through. Okay, what are some lessons that you learned with that? Give them advice, you know, I would do that versus this, but hey, it's you, I'm still cheering for you the way. Do you think I'm right for you?
Steven Evans 55:24
Absolutely. And I guess, do you find any not confusion, but maybe disorientation around your identity at this point, because we've gone through multiple layers, you know, from, you know, all the way back to high school. So, you know, was there anything that you know was disorienting about this time, or did you find yourself reaching for maybe prior times in your life to establish a sort of stability or foundation in who you were in this time? Kind of walk me through that experience.
Larry 55:51
Yeah, it's a mix of both those things, going back to the times where I felt more successful, so my high school, college days, remembering what that looks like, and what are some practices and things that I can pull from that. Some things you're successful because you're single, and so you just can't do, yeah, don't have the time, you know, or the bandwidth to be able to do certain things, and so I can be reaching for that, and that works to a degree. And then for us, us, meaning my myself and Deirdre, my wife, what does us back then look like in reaching for that, but you know it kind of works to a degree, but one thing I feel like I've been blessed with, and Uncle Dennis, my wife's great uncle, he's a good example, I got a few other examples too of what life looks like 20 ish years from now, from where I am, life in your 70s, 80s, or how many years left you have, what does that look like? And being able to look forward to, you know, some great, great friends of ours, you know, that are in their 60s, they're doing great, like their kids are empty nesters gone, you know, and they're in their 30s, you know, and they're they're like gone, gone, and they're like loving life, traveling, enjoying themselves, they're in a sense they're almost like a more developed version of when they were in their 20s, you know, young plus life experience, and they got resources and stuff, and I'm like, hey, that's that's cool, I like that, and then the other piece to this too is kind of on the grim side is death be because sooner or later we don't have infinite time as a black man, especially in my family. Life expectancy doesn't tend to last that long, and so that does put some focus into the fact that, okay, try to have some healthy practices to try to extend your time, but value the time you have left, especially now. I feel like I've been blessed, my wife and I, to make it to this stage in life. So, how can this chapter be as long as possible?
Steven Evans 57:53
You know, together fitness is a part of it, you know, because that enables a number of different things to enjoy experiences and stuff like that, and being able to do that, yeah, so longevity, right, and coming to face to face with that ultimate door we go through at the end of our lives. When you think about that, and perhaps the relationships you've made, and the things that you know, the children and the professional relationships, right? And what do you think is one or a couple of the most important tenets that you found to really help move yourself forward, but anchor yourself in an identity?
Larry 58:31
Yeah, I would say, let me answer it with this quick example. So, my dad, doing well, he had a stroke a couple years ago, and it was a tough situation, because he was at home by himself. Thank goodness, a neighbor saw him when he fell, and the ambulance got to him, and he got the care he needed. So, when that happened, I actually went home and stayed with him in the rehab place, and just was with him every day, you know, for a little over a month. And then, you know, he's back in Virginia, and so traveled there, and then when I wasn't there, just stayed in touch, and so in a sense, kind of, it's a full circle moment between my dad and I, you know, together, and helping him, in a sense, roles were reversed, you know, versus when I was a little boy, he helped me walk, right now I'm helping him walk, all those things there, so a lot of different rich metaphors there, but just with the idea of legacy, because one powerful thing I learned when I was helping my dad at the rehab center, I got became friends with the whole staff, it was great, all this stuff, eat dinner with them, and like a lot of people, they are like at the end of life, you know, in their final chapters, a lot of people didn't have visitors coming to see them, in a certain sense. I was not only there for my dad, but I was there for like at least five or six other people there, right now. They were like, 'Hey, we LG, you know, hey Larry, Larry Sr. My dad, when's your son coming back? He's great, you know, with this, because we'd have dinner together or lunch and. And chopping it up with them, having a good old time reminiscing about things, and interviewing them, if you will, learning about their lives, and just the power of connection, and it goes beyond family ties, just the fact that how many quality connections and interactions that you have that are memorable, I would say that will be one of the key things, um, you know, at the end of my life, you know, being rich in that sense, yeah, money comes and goes, but those are the types of things when it comes to richness, you know, written richness in relationships and paying forward a number of different things that hopefully will help a number of people out along the way.
Steven Evans 1:00:42
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again. I always like to close with a standard, you know, sort of question around, you know, if you were looking back across like the full arc of your life, and not necessarily the one that you would have designed, but like the one that you actually found yourself walking in, what is the thing, and you kind of alluded to this, but what is the thing that turned out to matter the most?
Larry 1:01:04
The thing that turned out to matter the most is couple things. Keep trying. Number one, give yourself grace, enjoy yourself, have fun, and make friends. That's a few things. Answer your question. Sure, but I would, I would sum it up like that.
Steven Evans 1:01:24
Well, thank you. Thank you for being on the show, and thank you for bringing your honest truth, for sharing it with us. It really matters. It really means a lot. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks again. This has been The Missing Conversation. I'm Steve Evans. Thanks for listening. If something in there found you, if a moment hit somewhere you weren't expecting, just let it be there for a while. You don't have to sort it out right now. That's what this is for. Take care of yourself out there, and if you know a guy who needs to hear this one, you probably already know who he is. Send it to him.