Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

“Everybody you interact with needs that signal of respect.”
Feeling seen and respected can shape how we communicate and connect with others. For Stanford social psychologist and author of Churn: The Tension That Divides Us and How to Overcome, Claude Steele, understanding stereotype threat and “churn,” the tension that arises when we worry about being judged based on our identity, can help us build greater trust across differences. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Steele joins Matt Abrahams to discuss how stereotypes influence our interactions and how to reduce their impact. From giving feedback that communicates respect to recognizing people’s full humanity and potential, Steele shares ways to strengthen our connections across differences.

Takeaways:
  • Trust grows when people feel seen and respected. Recognizing someone’s abilities, potential, and individuality can reduce uncertainty and help build stronger relationships across differences.
  • Feedback works better when respect is explicit. Pairing high standards with a clear belief in someone’s ability to meet them can make critical feedback feel more trustworthy and motivating.

Activity:
  • Add a signal of respect. Think of someone you need to give constructive feedback to. Before delivering the critique, add one sentence that communicates both your standards and your confidence in their ability to meet them. Notice whether this changes how the feedback is received.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

 Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (00:57) - What is Stereotype Threat?
  • (02:39) - Social Media and Stereotypes
  • (03:44) - Reducing Stereotype Threat
  • (07:18) - Building Personal Connections
  • (08:13) - Understanding Churn
  • (09:46) - Building Trust Through Feedback
  • (13:54) - The Final Three Questions
  • (19:10) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Claude Steele
Social Psychologist | Former Provost | Emeritus Professor | Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

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Matt Abrahams: One of the benefits
of communication is it allows us to

demonstrate that we truly see other
people My name is Matt Abrahams, and

I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I look forward to
speaking with Claude Steele.

Claude is the Lucie Stern
Professor and Social Scientist

Emeritus at Stanford University.

He's held several academic leadership
roles, including Dean of Stanford's

Graduate School of Education and Provost
at both UC Berkeley and Columbia.

He is widely recognized for his
groundbreaking research on stereotype

threat, and he is the author of
Whistling Vivaldi and his latest

book, Churn: The Tension that
Divides Us and How to Overcome It.

Well, welcome, Claude.

I have been a long admirer of
your work, and I'm so excited to

have this conversation with you.

Claude Steele: Uh, I couldn't
be happier to be here.

It's been something I've been
really looking forward to.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

Are you ready to get started?

Claude Steele: I'm ready to go.

Matt Abrahams: All right.

Well, I'd like to start with how I came
to first know of you and your work.

As an undergraduate here at Stanford
studying psychology, I learned about

stereotype threat and found it not
only interesting, but really important.

And I'd love for you to take a moment
just to share with everybody what that

is and the impact it can have on people.

Claude Steele: Yeah.

It's a kind of social predicament
that one can find oneself in.

You're in a situation where there
are negative stereotypes about one

or another of your identity, your
age, your race, your religion, and

the stereotypes apply to what you're
doing in that situation, you know then

that you could be judged or treated
in terms of that negative stereotype.

And if the situation is important to
you, that prospect is threatening,

and that's what stereotype threat is.

It's just finding yourself in a
circumstance where, "Boy, I'm the

oldest guy here. Are they going to
think all my ideas are dated and I have

no technological competence at all?"

And those are stereotypes I know out
there about age, and when I'm in a

situation where they're applicable,
and if it's an important situation, I

can worry about that, and that worry
can affect my behavior right there in

the immediate situation, if I'm trying
to perform something, a standardized

test where a lot of the research has
been done, or an athletic activity

or, uh, any kind of intellectual
activity where the stereotype applies,

it can have a pretty serious effect.

It could motivate you
to avoid that situation.

So it can have real, pretty profound
effects on our choices as well

as our behaviors, who our friends
are, where we want to live, what

schools we want our children to
go to, where we feel comfortable,

where we don't feel comfortable.

A lot of that would take the
form of stereotype threat.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

It can impact us in the
moment, but also long term.

I'm curious, how does social media
impact and influence this kind of

stereotype and stereotype threat?

Claude Steele: Well, I think its
effectiveness, its dramatic effectiveness

at purveying stereotypes and images of
groups and images of different identities,

I think it can amplify the number of
situations that people feel this kind of

threat in because its currency is in big
part summary, quick images of identities,

and people have no tolerance for any
elaboration or exception, so it can be

very generative of this kind of threat.

I do think, though, it can
sometimes purvey things that

would reduce the threat, images
that would reduce the threat.

So it can cut both ways, but so much of
the tenor of social media seems to be

more of a negative sort, and that makes
us all the more, in a diverse society

like the one in which we live, it makes us
all the more conscious of our identities

and what people might think of us.

So the whole phenomenon can
be amplified by social media.

Matt Abrahams: So it can absolutely
amplify, and I think it necessitates

that as we consume social media,
that we at least think about what are

the stereotypes being communicated
and how does that have impact on us.

And by bringing that to consciousness
might impact how we feel about it.

Which leads me to the next question.

I'm very curious to know what are
some of the most effective and

lasting interventions that can
help mitigate stereotype threat

and the negative impact from it?

Claude Steele: There's been an important
evolution over the last couple of

decades of research on that, probably
for the most part in academic settings,

but increasingly in business settings.

In academic settings, you know, you
have minority kids, let's say African

American kid, he's in a, an integrated
classroom, which we think of as a very

desirable thing, but he does know at some
level, and his parents know, that there

are these negative stereotypes about
African Americans' abilities and the like.

It can nag at a person, and they can be
particularly vigilant as to how they're

being perceived, and that can, as we just
mentioned, interfere with performance

right there in the immediate situation.

Or it can, even if they feel that
pressure is persistent, they can

disidentify with the whole enterprise.

You know, every time I raise my hand and
I have this extra worry that if I get it

wrong, I'm gonna be seen in terms of those
stereotypes and confirm, that pressure

every day in an important situation
like schooling can be very daunting.

You could see in a analogous
situation, a white guy who's really

good at basketball trying to make
a career at that, he's gonna be

seen in terms of, or could be seen.

He doesn't know for sure if that
decision by the coach had anything to

do with stereotypes about his group's
abilities in basketball or not.

So a lot of the work has looked at
its impact in schooling, and there is

where I think progress has been made.

One thing that helps is even
knowing about stereotypes.

It's just that this is a pressure
coming from the social context that

we're in, and let's understand it as
such, and that can lower its impact.

So that knowledge has been
subject to considerable research

and pretty well established.

I think affirmations, I'll give you
an example where students are asked

in some of the early research, these
were seventh graders in integrated

classroom, and the teacher asked them to
just take 15 minutes and write to me a

little essay about the things that are
most important to you and the people

that are most important in your life.

So students do that, and for the
white students in the classroom,

you know, it doesn't hurt,
doesn't particularly help them.

But for the African American students
in the classroom, it has a dramatic

effect 'cause it gives that student
a chance to tell the teacher that

they're more than that stereotype.

It sounds like a funny, easy
thing to do, but it has a very

transformative effects on their grades.

The student who gets to write this
essay, their grades go up a bit.

And then because their grades go
up a bit, they feel a little less

vulnerable to that stereotype.

And feeling a little less
vulnerable to that stereotype,

their grades go up even more.

So there's a, a kind of recursive chain
of events, relief of this pressure.

They come to understand themselves in
relation to the setting they're in in

a different way, and it sets them on
a different trajectory, which gives

us both a sense of, you know, how
powerful this thing can be and when

it's unattended to how powerful it is.

Matt Abrahams: What's amazing about that
intervention is that it is quite simple.

Claude Steele: It's simple.

Matt Abrahams: And that it
has such a profound in the

moment, but long tail impact.

Claude Steele: Yeah.

Matt Abrahams: I wonder if the advice is,
if you are somebody who feels different

in some way, either based on who you
are, your gender, your race, maybe you

have an accent, maybe you're newer to
the team, you're an older person, it

might make sense to share in ways that
you feel comfortable about yourself

with those around you to help them
see you outside of those stereotypes

Claude Steele: Yeah, no, I think it is.

I think another strategy is building
relationships and focusing on building

personal connections with each other,
because once you get a bond like that,

the beginnings of a friendship bond,
it's less likely that person is going

to see you in terms of stereotypes.

It can not completely wipe out that
concern altogether, but it's going to

substantially reduce it and enable the
person in a situation like schooling to

allocate their attention a lot more to
the work at hand than to these anxieties,

so it can start to have an effect.

Matt Abrahams: I appreciate
you sharing that.

So let's talk about your new book, Churn.

Can you define for us what you mean
by churn, and how can it help us

better understand relationships
and intergroup relationships?

Claude Steele: Yeah, churn is really that.

It's sort of that concern in a
diverse setting where there are

different kinds of people from
different kinds of backgrounds,

different identities, and the like.

The concern in that setting that somehow
or another I could be devalued based on my

identity, devalued, treated differently,
seen with different expectations.

I could worry about those things,
whereas if I were in a situation that

was more homogeneous identity-wise, if,
if it's just us old guys at Pete's early

in the morning talking about things,
I feel, you know, pretty comfortable.

The diversity itself, when the situation
is important, if you're just riding

a bus or in a basketball game crowd
or something, no, it's not an issue.

But when you're in a situation
where it's important to you and it's

important to your life outcomes, then
diversity can have this, by raising this

possibility that you could be seen in
terms of sort of out-group stereotypes

about your group, it can be tense.

And so churn is just the term I came up
with to capture that sort of psychological

state of anxiety and vigilance to,
you know, like, I have to stay alert.

It's a tension between
remembering and forgetting.

Should I remember how my group can be
seen and use that to interpret what's

happening to me in this situation?

Or can I just forget that and
relax and trust this situation?

Matt Abrahams: I really like
that definition of the tension

between anxiety and forgetting.

And the churn is really what's going on
in your head, the anxiety, it's, it's

vigilance, and it's rumination, too.

It's all of that together.

I want to dive deeper onto ways to
reduce the stress that churn has,

and you've alluded to the fact that
trust-building plays a factor in that.

Can you give us an example, a real-world
example that some of our listeners in

their workplaces might encounter that
could help reduce some of the churn

for some of the people in those groups?

Claude Steele: Yeah, I can illustrate
it best with an experimental finding

led by Geoff Cohen, and Lee Ross and
I did this together, and we were just

interested in a basic question, how
does a professor give critical feedback

to, say, an African American student
and have that feedback be trusted?

How do you do that?

And so we had them write an essay
about their favorite teacher.

We brought Stanford students, Black
and White, into the laboratory

and asked them to write this essay
about their favorite teacher.

And if it was good, we'd publish it in a
new magazine we were starting on teaching.

That was the ruse.

And we told them if they come back
in two days, we're going to give

them the feedback on that essay.

And they do come back in two days,
and we give them the feedback,

and our big question is how much
do they trust this feedback?

And what we vary is how
we give the feedback.

And what we found was expected, but
nonetheless unsettling in the first

two conditions of this experiment.

When we gave the feedback
straightforwardly, "Here's the

feedback on your essay," or we gave
it with a real positive bromide

kind of compliment up front, "Gee,
you bring a lot of great energy to

my class, and here's the feedback,"
White students trusted it and Black

students were very mistrusting of that.

And you'd wonder, well, look, they're
Stanford students, they're privileged.

Why wouldn't they trust this feedback
in this institution that's, seems so

committed to their welfare and so on?

But from their standpoint,
this ambiguity comes up again.

If you put yourself in their shoes,
you don't know whether the feedback

for sure is based on your essay or from
the feedback giver's opinions, views,

stereotypes about your group's abilities.

You don't know for sure.

And you have to, have to
remain a bit in churn.

So the third condition gets
to the question you asked,

which is a demonstration of
how you can get rid of it.

In that condition, uh, very heartening,
the feedback giver says, "Look,

we use high standards here because
we only publish these essays, and

I've looked at your essay, and I
think you can meet those standards."

When it was put that way, Black students'
motivations just went off the chart.

Three times more of them in that
condition took the essay home to

improve it, used the feedback to
improve the essay as participants in

any other condition of the experiment.

So they trusted it wildly.

And you know, when you think about it,
that kind of feedback from an authority

who says, uh, you know, "We use high
standards, and I think you can meet

them," that kind of feedback can be very
powerful, transformative to most of us.

It can launch us on a career path
if we get that at the right time.

But I think that illustrates one of
the critical dimensions of cutting

through this churn and this sense of
threat that diversity can pose to us.

It says basically, there may
be a stereotype out there about

your group's abilities, okay?

It doesn't say this explicitly,
but the implication is, that may be

true, but I respect your abilities.

I respect you, and I respect your
abilities, and it's conveyed to

you by me having high expectations
for you and having looked at your

work and having, you know, see
some promise, some potential in it.

That is a central strategy.

When we deal with people from
different backgrounds and the like,

it's critical to signal respect.

One phrase I use in the book is to be able
to see full humanity and full potential

in difference, if we can adjust our
perception, if we can just give a little

signal, then it's very powerful, and
it can be transformative in the sense

of enabling a relationship and reducing
the pressure that person might feel.

Matt Abrahams: The ability to establish
that there are criteria on which you

are making, in this case, decisions,
giving feedback, I think is good

hygiene for any communication, let
alone the situation you're describing.

Well, this has been a
great conversation, Claude.

Thank you so much.

And before we end, as you well
know, I ask three questions.

One I'm gonna make up just
for you, and two I've been

asking people for a long time.

Are you up for that?

Claude Steele: I'm up for it.

Matt Abrahams: You have held
several leadership positions

in very large organizations.

What are one or two skills that you have
found have been most helpful for you in

those leadership roles to be successful?

Claude Steele: I do think to the extent
that I've been able to do it, it is

understanding that everybody you interact
with needs that signal of respect.

If we make a mistake in society, it's
that we think we don't have to deal with

that, that we can just assume that trust.

And I think the realities of our
society and life suggest the contrary,

that no, you have to respect that,
and you have to build that trust

and understand that that's kind
of what people need at some level.

And so in ministering, I think
maybe guided in bit by, or more than

just a little bit by this research,
and just watching really effective

leaders, they had a knack at that.

And the beloved leader is a leader that
people trust, even though that, you know,

they're gonna disagree with that person,
or they're gonna not like what they

have to do as directed by that person.

But if they have a sense that that
person respects their humanity and

their potential, they roll with things,
and you get a very different climate.

Matt Abrahams: A lot of what
you have shared with us is about

demonstrating that we see other
people and that we're there for them.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Claude Steele: I have to say Barack
Obama, because for a guy named Barack

Hussein Obama to be elected President
of the United States, he's got to have

that ability to give people a sense
that he respects them, that he's not

gonna be polarized against them in
some way or reflexively against them or

with resentment toward them and all the
things that they could be churning about.

His style and language is a remedy to.

So as a figure, I wish we would take his
style much more seriously and understand

that the significance of it, that it
has the capacity to get to people and

make them feel seen and connected to
each other in terms of their humanity

first and their identity second.

And that's a really
nice knack that he has.

Matt Abrahams: I like that,
humanity first, identity second.

Our final question, what are the
first three ingredients that go into

a successful communication recipe?

Claude Steele: The first
thing is recognizing that

all people have this need.

In the book, I talk about, uh, power
differences, is that the teacher

is more powerful than the student.

So who should go first
in terms of being wise?

Well, probably the teacher.

It's gonna be harder for the student
to expose themselves like that with

trusting them without some evidence
that it, it's safe to do that.

So I do think that tone is to me in
communication, both as a, within academic

life, but as an administrator, that tone
is important in a diverse society in a

way a lot of people need some evidence
that you're gonna be sensitive to, that

you're gonna see them and see their needs.

That's why they need some, as a
first ingredient, some indication

that you're aware of what's at stake
here and, and you care about that.

And I'm a big fanatic about clarity.

I pay a lot of attention to the way
sentences are written and so on, and

how things are conveyed, 'cause when
they're not or they're frustrating, it

can really defeat a valuable message.

So clarity, just simple clarity.

Try to be really direct
and clear about things.

And then third, I personally appreciate
some warmth and evidence of beneficence.

I think people need to know that you're
a human being in order to trust you.

And so I think of that as a really
important thing to convey, too, that

you can disappoint people with decisions
that you have to make, and you have to

do that if you're in an administrative
position, obviously, all the time.

But they would like to have some evidence
that you're a good person and that you, in

general, would wanna be as helpful as you
possibly can under these circumstances.

So evidence of beneficence and
real beneficence, really being

concerned about people, I think,
is a, a third thing I'd point to.

Matt Abrahams: Those listening know I
like alliteration a lot, so I'm gonna

take a little liberty with what you
said, but it's about connection, that

tone, recognizing there's a connection.

It's about clarity, and then it's
about caring and demonstrating concern.

And when you do those things, you
can really see somebody, and you

can demonstrate trust and respect.

Claude, this was a wonderful conversation.

Thank you.

You shed light on some things that I
think are really important for us to talk

about and had some direct, very specific
ways that we can address some of these

issues around churn and stereotype threat.

Thank you for your time.

Claude Steele: Uh, well,
thanks for the opportunity.

I much enjoyed it.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining
us for another episode of Think

Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast.

It was great learning from Claude.

Really understanding the stereotype
threat implications and about churn

can help all of us to trust and respect
others, and this can really help us if

we take the time to think about how we
give feedback and how we orient people

to our organizations and to our teams.

To learn more about how to set
expectations and how they shape our world,

check out episode 40 with Alia Crum.

This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,

Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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