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This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers and beyond) who want more flexibility while still doing work they love. As a freelance fashion designer, you can build your fashion career on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk). Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want. Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)
Heidi [00:00:00]:
This is part 2 of a 2 part episode on value based pricing with Jonathan Stark, where he is teaching us why hourly based pricing is a race to the bottom, and he's showing us how freelancers can make more money and make their clients happier. If you haven't yet listened to part 1, jump back at episode and do that first because you'll be missing out a lot of context on our convo. Let's get to it. Okay. Let's talk about the other pricing.
Jonathan Stark [00:00:24]:
Yeah. So these are easy. So these are easy ways to price. So the first one the the first one also, you know, productized services, which sounds like an absolute perfect fit for for something like a tech pack, where you say it's this much, and you put it on your website. Tech packs are $2,000.
Heidi [00:00:41]:
Mhmm.
Jonathan Stark [00:00:41]:
And you don't have to worry about all of the value based pricing. You don't have to worry about sales calls. It's like a button that says click here to buy now or click here to schedule whatever you need to do to schedule a tech pack thing. Mhmm. Now the trick with this, of course, is that if you are commoditized and there's nothing special about you that is meaningful to the kinds of buyers you wanna work with, your prices are not gonna be very high because they're gonna be controlled by market forces. Mhmm. So your your move there to increase your prices is to do something that sets you apart from everyone else. So if you if a tech pack let's say you would do a tech you wouldn't do a tech pack for less than $1,000, let's say.
Jonathan Stark [00:01:19]:
It's that's, like, not worth your time. You'd rather not even do it. You'd rather just throw the $1,000 away. Just So, no, I'd rather just stay in bed, keep your $1,000. Then usually when people are starting out, I'd say, okay. Well, double it. Double whatever your your walkaway price is to set your first price. So that's it is still cost first.
Jonathan Stark [00:01:40]:
Right? You're thinking my cost is about $1,000 of pain and suffering. So $2,000 tech packs. So, oh, yeah. I'd be really happy to do tech pack for $2,000. How am I gonna how am I gonna justify that? What is the story I'm gonna tell to people where they just roll up on my website and click buy now on a $2,000 tech pack? Now all of a sudden you've got a marketing challenge, so you need to have some crystal clear positioning. You need to market the crap out of it. But the for the benefit of that, you your sales effort is just massively simpler. You can just you could literally have a button on your website.
Jonathan Stark [00:02:20]:
People swipe a credit card, whatever they have to do, book a call with you for the initial kickoff or something, and you've got this process down where every single time the scope's exactly the same because the tech pack is for a specific type of client who's in a specific type of situation, which allows you to set a specific scope Mhmm. For the particular thing and just say it's this much money and they and you can sell those all day long, do them all day long, and it's more of a it's more of a not quite factory, but it's it's more of like a system. You've got a systemized process. It's the same for every client. There are gonna be variations, like, you know, you can order an I iPhone with a, you know, your initials engraved on the back, but it's still the same iPhone. It's taking the same amount of work. So there's gonna be some differences from client to client, but this is more of a, sort of in between value price projects and products, which is the other thing that I would consider. But in this middle, you've got this productized service where you're still doing this high touch delivery.
Jonathan Stark [00:03:25]:
So it's delivered like a service, but you sell it like a product. So it looks and feels like a product on the website. It's it's like going to a Target and buying a lamp. It's this many dollars. You can see what you're gonna get. So your sales page for a thing like this would have a price. It would have a way to take the next step to either pay you or book a time or whatever you they need to apply, for example. And all of the benefits and all of the features and all of the ingredients and all of the things would be on the page, like, there's the scope.
Jonathan Stark [00:03:56]:
This is what you're gonna get out of it. And why would you pay this much money? Because I'm me and you want me. You don't want someone else. Yeah. So that's a different game, but you could do you can do these things together. You could still do value price projects, and you can have a productized service for the the things that are very repeatable.
Heidi [00:04:14]:
And so, yeah, this is a really interesting concept and I wanna, just for people listening, like one example that I always use for really specialized niche is, you know, and that's something you and I have also nerded out on. The the example I always share is one of our successful freelancers in our program does cashmere sweaters.
Jonathan Stark [00:04:35]:
Yes.
Heidi [00:04:35]:
That's it.
Jonathan Stark [00:04:36]:
Great. Yep.
Heidi [00:04:37]:
No wool, no acrylic. And like, guess what? Brands that wanna do cashmere, like, they think there's something very special and luxury about cashmere. And so they want someone who's really specialized in cashmere and they're willing to pay. And also like sweater tech packs are completely different than like a t shirt or or something like a woven button down like you're wearing. Cause all the knit structure and all these other things. And so that's where just for people listening to get their brains spinning on, like, not being so commoditized with like, oh, I just do tech packs. It's like, no, I do it for this really special category. And the brand that wants that, like, wants that person that's really specialized, and they're happy to pay.
Heidi [00:05:14]:
Like, price becomes so secondary.
Jonathan Stark [00:05:16]:
Yep. You can and there are a lot of different ways to specialize. So you described sort of a technical version where you're they're specializing on the product or Yeah. Whatever you would call it, the garment. But you could also specialize in a kind of buyer.
Heidi [00:05:29]:
You
Jonathan Stark [00:05:29]:
could specialize in a size of company. You could specialize in, you know, sportswear. You could specialize in sort of, disruptor brands. There's all different ways you could do it. It doesn't need to be any, it doesn't have to be cashmere. It's like, oh, I'll do leather. You know, it, it could be, it could be, but there are lots and lots of ways to stand out and really probably if you're wondering like, yeah, well, how do I pick? It's like, well, who was your favorite pro what was your favorite project ever? Who was your favorite client ever? And then just like, you know, you don't have to change everything about your business, but you could just start pointing all of your social media marketing, all of your content marketing, all the people you invite on your podcast, all the direct outreach that you do at just those kinds of people.
Heidi [00:06:15]:
Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:06:15]:
And you don't have to change anything publicly, but but I mean, like, on your your website. Say, I only work with these kinds of people now, but you could just, for 6 months, just be what would it be like if I just went after this specialty for 6 months? And I can almost guarantee magic things will happen.
Heidi [00:06:33]:
Yes. I know you, have worked with Allison Heinis. One of also one of my students who now is our coach inside our freelance program. So that's pretty cool. But she's, more of that type of example where she works with small, slow women's fashion brands. So it's more like it's not like, oh, it has to be cashmere or something. Right? And I I think perhaps I know because I think she went through one of your your pricing program or something. And she has similarly to the example you shared with the tech pack.
Heidi [00:07:06]:
She's got like 3 different packages of like, okay, if you need patterns for this, for this type of style versus this type of style, she got like 3 different options with the tiers on her website.
Jonathan Stark [00:07:15]:
Yep.
Heidi [00:07:16]:
And and she has built out where she does generate a lot of inbound traffic. It takes a minute to get there. Oh, yeah. If this isn't happening next week No. It's a garden.
Jonathan Stark [00:07:27]:
It's a
Heidi [00:07:27]:
long tail game to build the traction and the marketing funnels to get the people, to get to the traffic, to get to your website. But it is very much possible.
Jonathan Stark [00:07:37]:
And once you do it, that flywheel is hard to stop.
Heidi [00:07:39]:
Yes, very much. Okay. So this is great. So we have productized service where you kinda know everything within reason fits with it's kind of a cookie cutter ish, and I can just sell that as, like, a flat based package. Yep. Okay. What else we got? Products. K.
Jonathan Stark [00:07:57]:
You know? So workshops, I'm assuming there's some info product digital version. Like, I I I'm thinking of Ravelry where they people sell tons of patterns on Ravelry. It's it's knitting, but, probably the idea of selling I mean, I'm somewhat familiar with, like, quilt patterns, but, you know, this is different from that. And but I know butter Butterick or whatever it's called, Butterick. That's probably not a space that that's probably not the kind of product you're going to sell, but there's there could be some kind of digital product. It's probably it's probably something like, you know, for your specialty, here's how to DIY it. So if you can't afford my product I service or you can't afford a project with me, well, that's fine. I understand.
Jonathan Stark [00:08:46]:
You're just starting out. You can you can buy my video course and learn how to do it yourself. That's, you know, and there's probably a lot of those in your space. There's probably a lot of people who have courses like that, but if it's for your specialty, then those people are not gonna shop around. So if it's, you know, whether it's cashmere, here are the crazy things about cashmere that people don't really know. And and it's if it's specifically for the fashion brand or the owner of a small fashion brand or a slow fashion brand or female slow fashion brand
Heidi [00:09:16]:
Mhmm.
Jonathan Stark [00:09:16]:
They're just not gonna look around because you're speaking directly to them and other stuff is gonna be more generic. So, you know, product is that's probably that certainly comes to mind
Heidi [00:09:26]:
Yeah. As a product. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking through like, I I feel personally that courses are a lot harder to sell than people think. These products. Right? And, and of course, the more niche it is, right? Like you said, they're not gonna shop around. Like when people discover me, they don't shop around because there's no one else teaching freelancing just for fashion. This is it.
Jonathan Stark [00:10:01]:
There's a ton of people teaching how to be a freelancer.
Heidi [00:10:04]:
Freelance in general, or even like creatives. Yeah. There's nobody doing it just for fashion and
Jonathan Stark [00:10:11]:
And it's different. There's important differences.
Heidi [00:10:13]:
Yeah, exactly. Totally. Yeah. I'm just trying to think through, like
Jonathan Stark [00:10:21]:
Yes. Of course.
Heidi [00:10:21]:
It's interesting to me that you bring it up because when someone comes to me typically and they're like, I want to create a like, they're freelancing and like, I want to create a course. I'm always like
Jonathan Stark [00:10:34]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:10:35]:
Like, it's even a step further, and I feel to create the course in a way that it is a great course, and it really fits the needs. You gotta, you you wanna go and wanna run through some beta and like do some live rounds of revisions to understand, like, where people get stuck and all that other stuff. And so I, it's an option for sure, but I see it even a step further past the, the product based service, the productized service.
Jonathan Stark [00:11:06]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:11:06]:
But you need to have a good amount of inflow. Am I kicking back too hard on this?
Jonathan Stark [00:11:13]:
A little bit, I think. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the industry though. But there's a couple of things you said that I would push back on. Okay. I've had people who we're talking about people that know what they're doing. Like, you have to know what you're doing. Let's so let's just table stakes.
Jonathan Stark [00:11:28]:
You're not a brand new freelancer. You're gonna create a course. You've done this. You have it down to a system. Maybe you have a productized service. If you're at the point where you have a productized service that's repeatable, you probably have the expertise to create the forest. Now you, it felt like you were implying high production values and that can be extremely expensive. It can be extremely hard, but you can make this very easy on yourself.
Jonathan Stark [00:11:53]:
So assuming you know what you're doing and you know what you wanna teach and you can put together a slide deck, right? Like you'd be very, if, if someone listening to like, oh yeah, I could put together a slide deck on how to do a tech pack for cashmere sweater in 15 minutes, Just bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, just an out maybe not a slide deck, but an outline. And just be like, alright. I'm gonna schedule a webinar, and I'm gonna teach the first module. And then on Tuesday, I'm gonna teach the next module. And on Wednesday, I'm gonna teach the next module. And on Thursday, I'm gonna teach the next module. And on Friday, I'm gonna teach the 5th module, and then I'm gonna take those videos and sell them. Done.
Jonathan Stark [00:12:28]:
Mhmm. So you you can sort of there's this concept in software called, MVP, minimum viable product. Mhmm. And if you put together that material and present 5 webinars, one after the other in series, and you take live q and a, and that's part of the recording Okay. And Yeah. And you announce it as here are the recordings of a 5 day webinar series I did. It's not you maybe you don't call it a course, but you're selling the digital product. And it was a one time thing.
Jonathan Stark [00:13:02]:
I'm not doing it again, and it's $99.
Heidi [00:13:05]:
Mhmm. You
Jonathan Stark [00:13:06]:
know? It would it would literally take you a week, plus the putting together slides on the front end and then on the back end, hosting it somewhere.
Heidi [00:13:14]:
So doing it. Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:13:15]:
Yeah. So I don't know if I don't know if the it it could be now it could be that there's no way to do this in your space in a purely digital presentation. In other words, they might need, like, a 3 cameras setup and you're showing them pieces of paper or fabrics or but if you can just task. If you were like think of it like this, like, probably someone in your space like, are there conferences in your space? Is there other conferences and fashion designers?
Heidi [00:13:48]:
Shows and and stuff. Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:13:50]:
Okay. And people speak to slides.
Heidi [00:13:52]:
Like Yes.
Jonathan Stark [00:13:53]:
Right? Yes. So okay. So that tells me it's doable. Like, there's some way to package up the information in your head, your expertise as a series of talks. And if you record those and when you're done, you're done. You know? Yeah. And sell it for $29 just as an experiment.
Heidi [00:14:09]:
Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:14:09]:
And it doesn't have to be 5 days. It could be 3. It could be 2. Sure.
Heidi [00:14:12]:
Sure.
Jonathan Stark [00:14:12]:
And just see. Just see. So, like, I'm a big fan of doing small experiments to see if there's any demand. And if people are like, take my money, then I'm like, okay. Maybe I'll maybe I will hire a a camera guide to come in and really shoot this or set the lighting or whatever.
Heidi [00:14:29]:
Yeah. I'm not big on the lighting. I mean, I'm like, this is how I record my stuff. Like, just in my office. And I don't see until you get to a certain point, the high production value, I don't think is totally necessary. But doing it.
Jonathan Stark [00:14:51]:
Yeah. There was another point you were making, though, which is it's gonna be a long time before you replace your other income with product sales.
Heidi [00:14:59]:
Yes.
Jonathan Stark [00:15:00]:
Right. It's a it's a it takes you're right. It's it's sort of like, the longest game of them. I mean, you hear people that have huge launches, but, you know and and that's possible, but that is a mess load of work. And if you're just a technical freelancer, you're not gonna have the expertise to do a massive launch. So right. So
Heidi [00:15:19]:
I do them. It is a mess load of work.
Jonathan Stark [00:15:21]:
Yeah. It is not fun. So yeah. So this is a it's a very long game, the longest game, but the scale is potentially massive if you do it Yeah. Depending on the size of your market, which might be too small. I don't know. But the upside is potentially incredibly high. Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:15:38]:
So if you could I mean, someone like someone like you, for example, I'm thinking, like, LinkedIn for fashion designers. It's just like, oh my god.
Heidi [00:15:47]:
Yeah. Like I have thought of I I don't feel like I'm quite there with my skills yet because I'm still new. I just started hanging out there in September. But I've been I've been thinking about it.
Jonathan Stark [00:15:58]:
So I would I would say that your your I think your instincts are right that it can be a lot of work for nothing.
Heidi [00:16:04]:
Mhmm.
Jonathan Stark [00:16:05]:
So minimize the amount of work and see. Just find out. Do the minimal amount of work and have some kind of digital product for sale, even if it's a an ebook that you put on Gumroad because the the ups I mean, that's money you know, I had one person recently describe it to me who just just sold, launched a book, you know, same thing. It's like sales while you sleep, and she described it as, like, I feel like I'm standing in front of a broken ATM machine that just keeps spitting money out at me. And I'm like, yeah. It's the greatest feeling. It's so great when you wake up and you're like, oh, I'm a $1,000 richer. I didn't do anything new.
Jonathan Stark [00:16:38]:
It's just Yeah. The marketing is working or whatever.
Heidi [00:16:41]:
Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:16:41]:
So, you know, it's it's an option. It's something that anybody who's good at something, anybody who's a subject matter expert, they can package up their expertise in a book form, a video form, audio form, something, digital patterns. I don't know. I don't know what soft do you use photo like, what what software do you use?
Heidi [00:17:01]:
For pattern making? Yeah. Oh, it depends. There's a ton of different ones. I mean, you could use Gerber. You could use close there's a ton.
Jonathan Stark [00:17:08]:
Yeah. Intro to Gerber. Here's how you get started with Gerber if you're making sweater designs or something. Yeah. I'm sure that stuff's gotta be out there. There's gotta be people doing that, but maybe not. Maybe it's white space.
Heidi [00:17:20]:
Yeah. Within reason, Gerber's not a cheap software. And to jump the learning curve is very steep and stuff. But I get the examples in general. Like, we can extrapolate from that. I could kick back with more resistance, because I'm still like
Jonathan Stark [00:17:35]:
Do it. Do it. Do it.
Heidi [00:17:35]:
And sales pages, and like, I don't know. I sell digital products. Right? And we do. We have an evergreen funnel that sells our course on autopilot. And when I wake up, I mean, it it brings in, I'll be totally transparent. Last month it brought in $12, like literally don't touch the thing. It's amazing. But also like the build to, like we have a lot of people going through that funnel And the sales page, like it's taken me, you know, I've tweaked the sales page and we use the same sales, essentially the same sales page for our evergreen as we do for our live launches and stuff.
Heidi [00:18:09]:
But like tweaking the sales pages and like, and, and just you look at, maybe there's nobody else doing freelancing for fashion, or maybe there's no one else doing the cashmere sweater thing, but, courses are very, or these ebooks, it's very saturated market. And, and I think that people are skeptical of, you know, is it going to be worth my money or I'm just going to buy it and it's gonna be in there. I was going to collect dust on my hard drive and there's a lot of objections to overcome with the buyer. And, and I even see, you know, I've, I've got a pretty good size audience and we're super niche and I've been doing this forever. And I am definitely known as like the expert in my space. And it's still sometimes fucking hard to sell a $1,000 course. And we have higher level offers and stuff, and and and those sell also, but it is still, it's still I don't feel for the faint of heart. And and I don't know.
Heidi [00:19:08]:
I'm like, you could put it out there and you could sell it for $29 and, like, maybe what are you gonna sell? Like, 1 or 2 a month? Unless you I don't know. I I I have a lot of resistance to this. You can feel it. I can feel it.
Jonathan Stark [00:19:24]:
Yes. If you're doing $1,000 courses, there's going to be a lot of objections. Almost, almost in almost in in any small business space, you're going to get a lot of pushback at a1000. You can still sell stuff all day long at a 100, you know, and and the and you're like but, yes, you it's a it's another muscle to build. It's like somebody's gotta write that sales page. You gotta address the objections. This is the kind of thing that you could teach. Like, maybe you do teach it.
Jonathan Stark [00:19:53]:
Like, it would seem totally normal to me.
Heidi [00:19:55]:
So much. Yeah. I mean, I don't teach people. I teach people how to address adjust objections with freelance clients. I'm like, you need to understand what their objections are and how to overcome them. And on some level, it does parlay directly into this. It's so parallel.
Jonathan Stark [00:20:10]:
Yeah. So it is a skill just like pattern making is a skill or creating tech pack as a skill for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But it's also not rocket science. And it's been and the effective patterns are all very well known. I've got a template on my site that people could use if they want. It's really not that it's copywriting is totally a skill just like any other skill, but there is a lot of basic stuff there.
Jonathan Stark [00:20:35]:
And if you combine a basic template with a deep expertise in a particular thing, then you're going to be 80% of the way there to writing a page. Yeah. So is it going to be meaningful money at $29 No. No. Because you're right. You'll probably just sell a couple, you know, but, you know, you get to wait for those tomato seeds to sprout. You got to wait for them to come up. So it's a long term decision.
Jonathan Stark [00:21:01]:
It's like, do I want to migrate my business from client work to a product business? And if you do, the best time to start is 3 years ago and the next best time to start is today. Right? It's our trope, old trope. But, yeah, I mean, if you if that is a strategically, if you're like, I wanna move into a product type of business, well, you gotta start somewhere. So, you know, 20 not starting at a1000 would be I would no. Don't. You know, you're not going to sell anything. Yeah. But if you started at if you started at a no brainer price and you had some kind of risk reversal with a guarantee because who cares? It's a digital product.
Jonathan Stark [00:21:41]:
Just like, I'll send you your money back. Yeah. And it's no skin off your nose because you're not teaching it live. You know, it's like, oh, if you're not happy, I don't want to keep your money. I'll just return it. And then here are the other objections. I'm just going to download this. It's going to sit on a thing in my hard drive.
Jonathan Stark [00:21:57]:
No, you won't. It's only 45 minutes. You know, this is where shorter is better. It's only 45 minutes. The things are broken down into 5 minute sections. You can watch them while you're having coffee and absorb the information and then whatever. Whatever. Make it small.
Jonathan Stark [00:22:12]:
Make a really small thing if you think someday you want to go in that direction. Yeah. But to think like, oh, I'm going to replace my client work with yeah. No. I agree with you there. That's, that's irrational.
Heidi [00:22:26]:
Yeah. And I think that, you know, you see a lot of, a lot of people who teach how to make courses and digital products selling that dream. Right? Many of you sleep and look at this big $100,000 lot. I mean, all that. And you're like, I know what goes on behind the scenes. It's a it's a shit ton to build up to that. It does not that is an insane long game and it's still a lot of ongoing work. So I think I just get a little bit jaded by that.
Heidi [00:22:58]:
But I see what you're saying. You started, like, MVP, do it as a live webinar. You can even charge, you know, $97 come to live webinar, $29 come live webinar. You get a handful of people over there, pop it up. Okay. Great. Now you can just sell this to all the people, all the tire kickers who aren't gonna actually hire you, but collect 97 for them.
Jonathan Stark [00:23:17]:
Yeah. If nothing else, you've created your downsell. So, like, like, they come, they can't they can't afford you. And it's like, that's fine. You can have this. That That would probably be the place where I would start is if you could do an MVP of a product so that you're in a sales meeting, if you go all the way back to the beginning, you're in a sales meeting, they come in, they're like, we want you to build us a tech pack or make you make us a tech pack in your head. If you have a tech pack course, you're it's gonna help you ignore their, you know, like, it's gonna help you be like, okay, maybe I'll do that. Maybe I won't.
Jonathan Stark [00:23:50]:
Maybe I'll sell them this other thing. Maybe we won't work together at all, or maybe I'll do some, you know, all singing, all dancing, soup to nuts thing because it turns out they've got a whale on the line. So it'll help you get your mindset in the right place when you're not like, Oh my God, I need this. I need this client. I need this money. I need to get the I need to charge them the most I can for this tech pack. And that's what they want. So that's what I'm going to give them.
Jonathan Stark [00:24:13]:
Like, imagine a doctor that was desperate to pay his mortgage. Like, you wouldn't want to go into that. You don't want to be in that exam room, right? Yeah. Let's, you know, like a like a evil plastic surgeon. Let's see. We can change this. We can change that. We can change the other.
Heidi [00:24:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Stark [00:24:28]:
You don't want upsells from your doctor.
Heidi [00:24:30]:
Yeah. So I love this.
Jonathan Stark [00:24:33]:
Yeah. So
Heidi [00:24:36]:
I have kept you way past time. Thank you for super nerding out with me on all the money psychology, Jonathan. It's a joy to chat with you always.
Jonathan Stark [00:24:45]:
A pleasure. No, thanks for having me.
Heidi [00:24:48]:
First, where can people connect with you and find you? And I know you've got some, some products for pricing and all that other stuff, I believe, right?
Jonathan Stark [00:24:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. If probably if people want to sort of go a little bit farther down the value pricing rabbit hole, you could go to value pricing bootcamp.com and it'll redirect you to my website and you can sign up for it. It's a free 6 day email course. Okay. And there's nothing nothing to buy at the end. It's just, you know, you just get on my mailing list.
Heidi [00:25:15]:
Okay. Amazing. And then last, I'll ask you the question I ask everybody at the end of the interview, which is, what is one thing people never ask you about being a freelancer that you wish they would? And I know you're not maybe not quite qualify yourself as a freelancer today, but just in general.
Jonathan Stark [00:25:32]:
Yeah. I well, in Seth Godin's definition, I am a freelancer because I don't have employees. What is the one thing they that I wish people would ask me about freelancing?
Heidi [00:25:42]:
That they don't.
Jonathan Stark [00:25:44]:
That they don't. Are these people who wanna get into freelancing?
Heidi [00:25:47]:
I guess anybody really. You know, sometimes it's like people, friends and family who might not, like, totally understand what freelancing is, and they're always like, oh, how's that freelancing thing? You know? And you're like, these are some of the answers people have given over the years and, and people are like, I wish they would ask me like, how's your freelancing business? You know, instead of like, how's that thing you're doing? You know? So it could be anything or nor new freelancers, anything really.
Jonathan Stark [00:26:12]:
Well, I mean, the how do you say your prices would be the obvious one?
Heidi [00:26:16]:
Yeah. I wish more people would ask you that.
Jonathan Stark [00:26:19]:
I mean, they that's the problem they do.
Heidi [00:26:22]:
Because you positioned yourself that way.
Jonathan Stark [00:26:24]:
Yeah. Because that's how they heard of me is because but I think I I wish more freelancers would ask in general, should I bill hourly instead of what should my hourly rate be? That that's the big question. I mean, they they're probably already thinking that by the time they come up to me.
Heidi [00:26:41]:
Yeah. Okay. I love it. And they just heard all of it in this hour and 15 minute long conversation, so they all walked away with
Jonathan Stark [00:26:49]:
My stupid air conditioner keeps coming on. Sorry about that.
Heidi [00:26:52]:
Oh, I can't even hear it at all.
Jonathan Stark [00:26:53]:
Oh, good. Thank god.
Heidi [00:26:56]:
Thank you so much. It was lovely to have you on the show, Jonathan.
Jonathan Stark [00:26:58]:
Always a pleasure. Anytime.