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We explore the risks arising from the use and misuse of digital devices and electronic communication tools. We interview experts in the fields of cybersafety, cybersecurity, privacy, parenting, and technology and share the wisdom of these experts with you!
Welcome to this exciting simulcast
between Transformative Principal
and the Cybertraps podcast.
Today we have, well,
first I'm Jethro Jones.
I'm your host.
Welcome.
Glad you're here.
You can find me on all the
social networks at Jethro Jones.
And I'm excited today because we have
Graham Dugoni, who is the founder
and CEO of Yonder, which is a company
that helps create phone free spaces at
events, and at schools, and in schools.
Even in your home with what is called
the home tray, which is a place
where you can lock away your devices.
And, uh, it even has mesh around
it to prevent signal from getting
through so that it really is a way
put away out of sight, out of mind,
which is a very powerful thing.
We all have these phones and we're
unfortunately so often addicted to them.
Um, and so Graham, welcome to the podcast.
Great to have you here.
Thanks for coming on.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
So we talk about a lot today.
What's most valuable to
you from our conversation?
I think the most kind of inspiring
and valuable thing was the story about
your daughter and hearing her awareness
about maybe the habits and the etiquette
and the structure of where and when
to use her computer and her phone.
I thought that's a, that's a
long term goal for Yonder's to
encourage those kinds of things.
of habits.
And so to hear it coming from a young
person is incredibly exciting to me.
Yeah, for sure.
And, and what's so cool is
that you talk about how to
help people get to that point.
And because I'm a nerd and been doing
this for a long time, like I've been
implementing the things that you talk
about that I think are really powerful.
And my most valuable takeaway is
that We can teach all we want, but
until people have the opportunity
to experience and try it out for
themselves, the teaching is, is just
theory until they actually experience it.
And that's a thread that runs through
our whole entire conversation.
So, uh, I'm excited to have, uh, Graham
on the program and we'll get to our
interview with him in just a moment.
So Graham, will you talk about the idea of
a phone free space and what that means and
why we should even be considering that.
Yeah.
Look, I think phone free spaces are, Yon
has been around for 10 years and we've
been helping create phone free spaces,
mostly in inside of schools and districts,
but also other spaces, performance spaces
and in people's homes and workplaces.
I feel like, um, what we hear from
people and our belief is that In modern
society where there are no more frontiers
and everything is kind of constantly
soliciting your attention all the time,
pinging and distractions and emails, uh,
technology is so pervasive that, you know,
the idea for Yonder was to create these
phone free spaces, kind of like a national
park system inside of modern society,
where you create spaces where you can go,
and focus on whatever you're doing with
the people you're there doing it with,
especially in an educational setting.
I think it's absolutely vital because,
um, it gives young people a chance to
experience what life is like offline
for a bit so they can have perspective,
uh, on that as they get older.
Yeah.
So what is, like, why
is that so important?
Because they're, they're essentially
not going to be away from their
phones most of the time for the
rest of their lives, I imagine.
So, so why do you see that it's
still important to have that happen?
Well, I think, look, I, I'm 37.
So I grew up without a phone,
you know, until later in high
school, then a flip phone.
And I think it's, it's important.
It's difficult for us to imagine sometimes
for digital natives who grew up with
the internet and then a smartphone in
their pocket, how different it is to
walk through the world as a person with
a computer in your pocket all the time
and how that affects everything you do.
It affects the development of critical
thinking faculties, the way you socialize,
the way you develop your kind of
character through difficult experiences.
It becomes a, It becomes an
appendage and in some ways a
tool, but in other ways a crutch.
And so when it comes to technology, I
think the goal for everybody is how do
we educate young people on how to use
technology appropriately and how to
relate to the online world as something
that's a little bit distinct and different
from the physical world around you.
And my belief is that we first have to
give young people the opportunity for an
extended period of time without it, to
at least have perspective on what it is.
Otherwise, we're just kind of talking
at a problem that is, it's too strong.
It's, we're, we're visual animals and you
have something flashing in your hand and
soliciting your attention all the time.
So it's difficult to use the rational
brain to overcome something that's so
powerful without giving young people
the experience without it, so they
can gain perspective on the problem.
maybe how social media or aspects of
the online world are affecting them.
And I think that that piece is really
vital because going without experiencing
it, it's more difficult to talk about it
in the abstract and harder for kids to,
to wrap their heads around it and harder
for adults to wrap their hands around,
heads around it for that matter also.
So you talk about how Yonder
is a program not a product.
And how is that a different approach than,
you know, just saying we're not having,
we're not allowing cell phones in schools.
How, how, why does that matter?
Yeah.
Well, I think we've been doing this for
a very long time and in countries all
around the world, 22 different countries.
And so we've seen the ubiquity of
the problem, but what we also have
learned over time is that It really is.
It's a societal issue and
it's a community problem.
So when you think about if a district
is going to go and say, we want to
become phone free for all our schools,
and you look at an individual campus
for school, maybe for 10 years,
there's been pervasive phone use.
And most of the districts we work with,
they have some phone policy in place.
The fact is it's just
incredibly difficult to enforce.
And so teachers are kind of forced
to be the phone police throughout the
day and have a million, struggles with
that with students throughout the day.
So where we come in and why yonder is
kind of a program is we know it's a
community issue and you have to get the
support of everyone in the community.
So that's teachers, administrators,
parents, and students.
So that's really what we do is if a
district is going to, wants to roll out
an effective, uh, phone free policy,
we'll come in and say, Hey, look, we've
been doing this for a very long time.
Here's what we've seen be successful
in other districts like yours.
Okay.
Here's the best way we found to
communicate with your community.
Of course, individualize to whatever,
whatever they would like to do.
And then we support from the beginning.
through the start, the
middle, and then year round.
And that's what we found is important
to not only begin creating a phone free
environment, but also maintaining that in
a positive framework, you know, throughout
the year and the follow on years.
Well, yeah, Graham, that's so important
because my experience has been that
if, if everybody is not on the same
page and on board with doing it, then
There's no way that it's going to work.
And, and that is essential because you
can't have one teacher saying it's okay
to use your phone and everybody else say
no, because the law of, of entropy, where
whatever the weakest link is, that's
what's going to affect everything else.
And so you're, you're only as
strong as your weakest link.
That's the thing that was in my
mind for a second to get there.
But, but when that's the case, like As
long as one person is saying it's okay.
then there's no way to really control it.
And so you have to find, you have to
find a way to do it systematically
and say, this is what we believe, and
this is where we're drawing the line.
And it's just, it's so difficult to do
that, uh, without it being, uh, something
more than just saying, you can't do this.
There's gotta be some
other thing to go with it.
And that's why I think Yonah is
a really great example of that,
because it's a physical thing that
you say, here's how we're showing
our commitment to this thing.
physically by having a pouch that
everybody puts their devices in.
And then we don't have to, we don't have
to have the argument or the discussion
because we've already committed to that.
What are some of the
challenges with that though?
And the common complaints you hear
about kids turn off and putting
their phones in a pouch all day?
Yeah, I think it depends on who
you're asking, but I think part
of what we're helping do is kind
of reset norms with schools of, of
structure around when and when not.
When phones are and are not
appropriate maybe to be used.
And so a lot of parents sometimes
will have developed a habit of
communicating with their student or
their child throughout the entire day.
And so one of the things we'll help with,
with the district kind of frame that
discussion is to let them know that.
We understand the need.
It's totally valid to want to know
what's going on with your child and
what their plans are and those things.
But here are the things that are actually
happening in the school and how that
disruptive to the educational environment.
Here's how that takes students
off task, distracts them.
Here's the other things phones are doing
in the schools in terms of coordinating
fights, um, students videotaping things
and posting them online that they maybe
shouldn't, but also taking away from
teaching time and these other things.
So it's kind of, Educating, helping
educate parents that all the things
they're concerned about, about their
child growing up with a phone and all
the impact that might be having on their
development, that the school is taking
a constructive approach to help create a
space that concretely affects that issue.
And here's what they can expect, so
that maybe it leads to the district
developing a new communication plan
with parents to coordinate after
school activities and things like that.
Like that, we hear that a
lot, to kind of fill that gap.
But it's an educational process of
letting everyone know, here's the
policy, here's why it's, it's positive.
And that goes for students as well.
A lot of students are not going to like
the idea of the honor program day one,
but begrudgingly, after a few weeks,
we hear from a lot of students that
they actually, they actually enjoy it.
Because all their peers are in the
same boat, so they don't feel like
they're missing out on anything.
That's a key too that, that
if, if somebody doesn't have a
phone, they can feel left out.
So like in my family, we have
not given our kids phones and
only two of my kids have phones.
One is a senior and she got it this year.
The other one is a sophomore and she got
it last year when she got to high school.
Now there are some cool things with that.
Number one, I love getting text
messages from my kids saying, I
love you and have a great day.
That's awesome.
And sometimes they say things to me in
text that they wouldn't say in person.
And that that's all well and beneficial.
My 10th grader does take her phone
to school every day, but my 12th
grader doesn't, and one of the
things we've been really clear
with our kids about is we have.
We have rules and we have expectations and
we have ways of doing things and whatever
your situation is, however you are, we're
going to adjust and customize for you.
And my senior daughter, she's
not going to do well with having
a phone at school all day.
And so she doesn't take
it to school to school.
And my 10th grade daughter,
she, she can handle that.
And so we're able to manage
that from our perspective.
If My kid's school had Yonder, for
example, and I knew that they were
going to be locking their phones away.
Then I'd be okay with the senior
taking it because she wouldn't
have access to it anyway.
And then she could call us when
she was done with school or track
practice or whatever the case may be.
But.
We have to make that decision, and I
know that not all parents are putting
as much thought and attention into
that decision as we are, and, you know,
there are, there are middle school kids
that, and elementary school kids that
have free reign access to anything they
want, whenever they want, and there's
a lot of problems with that, which
Fred and I go into Very deep on our
other podcasts, the Cyber Traps podcast
that, that this is also going out on.
So this one's going to be on Cyber Traps
and on Transformative Principal, but
there's a lot of different family values
and beliefs about how things should be.
And this is something that to me seems
important enough that everybody should
be on the same page as a school.
And you talked about some of those
district communication processes
that they could do to help.
Help things get better.
Talk a little bit more about those,
those parts of it, where districts
or schools and parents can work
collaboratively to come up with
solutions to this particular problem.
Yeah, look, that's a lot of,
that's a lot of the work we do.
If we were, we hear a lot now from, if
we are from a district and they say, we'd
like to roll out yonder next week, the
first thing we'll say is, well, let's,
That's great, but let's hold our horses.
We think it's a really good idea
if maybe we get these people in
the room and kind of understand the
plan for communicating with your,
with your community about the issue.
And here's some thought starters
on things you could work off
of as you think about that.
So a lot of our, our company
is built around 10 years of
that, of that experience.
And we're more than half the
company is kind of former educators.
And what we've really learned
over time is we, we didn't kind
of build our program in a vacuum.
We built it through working with
school partners and they helped
educate us about how this would go.
So as an example, in the early
days, we heard from a lot of
teachers saying, I really want
to create a phone free classroom.
But to your point about the disparity and
styles and different relationships and
different classroom management techniques,
we learned very quickly that that was
not a good approach because it would
be different in one place than another.
And you were not creating a simple ground
rule that everybody, all the students
could kind of understand that when they
step into the space, it, it's phone free.
And so we found very quickly that
it, kind of a tier one support worked
much, much, much more effectively.
But it requires much more communication
and collaboration with districts
and schools to kind of get that
buy in to move that forward.
So that's, that's a lot of the work we do.
Uh, the pouch is almost
the last thing we do.
The last thing that we touched on,
but we also help with that, which is
the logistics of how to, how to set
up in a particular school, knowing
that every school layout is different.
And we spend a lot of time making sure the
X's and O's are going to flow smoothly.
Yeah.
So that, that brings up a really
fascinating perspective that the Yonder
product is this pouch that kids put their
phones in, but the, the idea of how they.
unlock the pouch, uh, what they do
with it, how they keep track of it,
all those kinds of things are all
parts of this bigger conversation
that you, you have to have a plan for.
And so it would be really easy for a
kid to say, for example, Oh, I don't
have my pouch today, so I can't do this.
And so what are some of the other things
that have to go into place for the rollout
to be Of course, it has to be accompanied
by a strong and very clear policy.
There's no doubt.
So that when inevitably a student on
the second day of school gives, you
know, presents that situation that you
just described, I don't have my pouch.
It's very clear then.
Here's the tears of what happens next.
Um, in a lot of schools, they'll say,
okay, you don't have your pouch today.
We're going to hold your phone at
the front office and then maybe
it's a call home to the parents.
Um, but just being very clear
with everybody with students about
here's what's going to happen.
And then following through, especially
in the first couple of weeks is
what we find and what we really
emphasize so that nobody's surprised.
And then what happens very quickly
is students realize that, okay.
It's much easier to go along with the
policy because it's very reasonable,
and they're more open to seeing the
benefits, but you do have to hold the
line a little bit in the early days
because it's something new, and for
young people, it's a radical, it's a
radical change, um, and just, we try
to acknowledge that and meet them where
they're at and kind of talk through it
so that they're open to it as they go.
Yeah, and I think that piece is really
important because the kids have to
Believe in the value of it as well.
And so talk about kids
understanding the value of it.
What are the things that you've seen?
There's a couple of great videos on
your, on your website that people
can go watch, uh, especially from a
school in New Zealand, which is just
awesome how they're talking about
it and how the kids are saying all
these positive things, but share your
perspective from what you've heard.
That's the best part of my job.
Yeah, because that's our
ultimate goal is to educate
young people through experience.
So that as they get older, they can make
their own choices about the role that
technology should play in their lives.
That is our goal and it's education.
But the big shift we've seen, I
would say since COVID probably is
more and more students and young
people are, they're open to the idea
and they know what they're doing.
They're smart.
They know that there's something kind of
off about spending a lot of time online,
and they're kind of aware, more or less,
that it's having some negative effect
on them, maybe socially, academically.
Our goal is to help frame it in a
positive light, so that as they experience
being without their phone, they can
kind of appreciate the difference.
And that's what we're hearing from
more and more students is, Hey, I feel
much more focused, much more present.
I've made a lot more friends this
year already than I did in the past.
Or we've heard from librarians that
more books have been checked out
in the first month of school than
the entire previous school year.
Or the re emergence of chess clubs
and things at lunch, where before
students were off scrolling.
So it just, it's fun to watch the things
that flourish inside of environment
once you just create something that's
conducive to that kind of thing.
Yeah, and, and you hinted at something
there that I think is really powerful,
this idea that kids recognize that
this is not wise or something that
they should have unfettered access to.
And, and what I've seen with my own kids
and their friends is, a desire for them
to have some boundaries around it and
wanting to be told, no, you can't do this.
So they have an excuse.
You know, another example from our
family is that our kids charge their
devices, uh, upstairs in the living
room and not in their bedrooms.
And my office that I'm in right now is
downstairs where the kid's bedroom is.
And, uh, my daughter edits podcasts
right behind me, um, at her desk.
And the other day she brought her
computer upstairs at like 10 o'clock
at night and said, Dad, I just
feel this pull to check my computer
for my messages from my friends.
And I know I need to go to
bed, but it's tempting me.
So I want to put this up here.
Where can I put it?
And I was like, what a
mature, awesome young woman.
Who's showing like, this is a temptation.
I don't need it.
I need to be asleep in bed right now.
Cause it's late.
Like that kind of thing
is really powerful.
Having the computer down here wasn't
a problem for me, but it was for her
and because we've talked about this so
much, she felt comfortable coming to me
and saying, here's, here's a problem.
And I want your help overcoming it.
Yeah, I think that's wise for someone of
any age to have that kind of, to have that
kind of self awareness because it's hard.
It's hard.
And, uh, The tools we, it's well
documented now are created to be
pretty, um, attention inducing,
you know, to, to encourage you.
And we're also very visual creatures.
So it pulls, it pulls us in
and there's something there.
So I think that the need for structure
and social etiquette around it is
something that is a knock on effect
when Yonder works with the school.
And it also follows through to families
and communities and starting to
educate because there's a temptation,
I think, to say, Well, can we
just talk about it with students?
Can we just kind of
teach them and tell them?
And I think my response
is, yes, absolutely.
But also, along with that, giving
them the experience and the light
boundaries and framework is really
important for actually educating them.
Otherwise, you're competing against
something that's not going to work.
That is very visceral and is tied
into your central nervous system,
and that's not really a struggle.
You're probably going to
win without some support.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Last question, Graham, is if somebody's
thinking about this or saying maybe
we shouldn't have school phones in our
school next year, where should they start?
What should they do?
What should the first step be?
Well, I guess I'd be remiss not to
mention our website, which is overyonder.
com.
Um, if they want to reach out,
obviously we're happy to talk
and, and walk them through it.
But the main things I think we talked
about are the most important things,
is realizing that it is possible.
A lot of teachers we speak to, I think,
have the impression that the, um, The
issue with phones in schools has gone
so far that it's impossible to imagine
kind of a world where that genie
can be put back in the bottle a bit.
And I guess it's our
role to say, yes, it can.
But there's also some things that
you kind of have to step through.
And we have a lot of experience doing it.
And a lot of it, a lot of it is
about clarity and community buy in.
And that's, um, I mean, I think
schools know that very well.
It's like any other policy.
It's going to be as effective as you
can kind of, you know, Wrap your arms
around it, but that's something we've
learned, and we continue to learn
in every, every part of the world.
Yeah, very good.
Well, Graham, thanks for coming on.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.