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An indepth dive into single joint and multi joint exercise movements with Dr. James Fisher, researcher & senior lecturer in sports conditioning & fitness at Southampton Solent University in the United Kingdom.
Now listened to in 100 countries, The InForm Fitness Podcast with Adam Zickerman is a presentation of InForm Fitness Studios, specializing in safe, efficient, High Intensity strength training.
Adam discusses the latest findings in the areas of exercise, nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness and to replace those sacred cows with scientific-based, up-to-the-minute information on a variety of subjects. The topics covered include exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep, recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more.
Inform_Ep 55_Fisher 1_March14.mp3
Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness studios a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. In this podcast Adam and Mike interview experts and scientists and discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery what Adam calls the three pillars. This show also aims to debunk the sacred cows popular misconceptions and urban myths in the field of health and fitness.
Arlene [00:00:43] On this episode an in-depth dive into single joint and multi joint exercise movements with Dr. James Fisher researcher and senior lecturer in sports conditioning and fitness at South Hampton Solent university in the United Kingdom.
James [00:00:59] Things that this debate has come around. Is there a need for these additional single joint exercises or can we get a lot or all of the same benefits from only multi joint movements. And if we can and can we really abbreviate workouts down on the more abbreviated or workout becomes the more we might be able to get more people to exercise and simplify protocols for people that currently perceive exercise to be complicated and time consuming.
Adam [00:01:29] Welcome to the show I'm really happy to have Dr. James Fisher with us today. It's been a while since we've done a podcast is starting our fifth season and couldn't be happier to kick it off with Dr. James Fisher.
Adam [00:01:41] Dr.Fisher is a researcher and senior lecturer in sports conditioning and fitness at South Hampton Solent university in the United Kingdom. Dr. Fisher completed his HD from Nottingham Trent University and he has published more than 70 peer reviewed journal articles relating to exercise physiology and athletic performance. Much of his research considers methodological approaches to resistance exercise including modalities and advanced training techniques. He's also publish critical commentaries challenging existing paradigms and practices that have higher risk of injury and lack evidence of efficacy. So indeed he has publicly challenged which I like the notable academics and fallible processes in an attempt to ensure that scientific publications pertaining to resistance exercise preserve honesty and application. Finally James has published multiple large review articles aiming to provide trainers and trainees with an evidence based approach to optimizing resistance exercise for improving muscular strength purchase fee and cardiovascular fitness. So he sees as a priority of his academic position too to bridge the gap between what science says and what people are actually doing out there in the real world. James also by the way was a great Britain Paralympic basketball coach from 2008 to 2013 including the London 2012 Games. Very cool. He has been a tutor with the UK Anti-Doping organisation and is an IFBB accredited weight training prescription specialist and he speaks all around the world. With any remaining time he well he sleeps now actually. He is a proud husband and father and a competitive cyclist. Welcome James.
James [00:03:23] Thank you very much Adam and thanks for that introduction. It's amazing what I can write them myself send them across.
Adam [00:03:29] Actually we're going to talk about today James. We talked about this earlier. We want to talk about compound movements very simple movements. Won't you just help us define. First of all the difference between a compound movement and a simple movement or is otherwise known as multi joint movement and single joint movements.
James [00:03:45] Yeah absolutely. So let's start with a single joint. So a single joint or an isolation movement is a movement normally around one axis or around a single axis. It's normally a single muscle or muscle group working to perform that movement in a rotary fashion which is the way the body works for example a knee extension or a knee curl bicep curl or TRICEP EXTENSION. In contrast the compound movement has a linear output because it's multiple joints working around a rotary fashion but because there are multiple joints the outcome is linear. So it's normally a chest press an overhead press a leg press because it's multiple joints it's multiple it's multiple muscle groups to produce stop that movement.
Adam [00:04:29] Very good. We've covered this before in other episodes but I wanted to just review that real quick before we get into the weeds here. So what is the debate between compound movements and simple movements?
James [00:04:40] Well I guess the debate sort of springs back to where resistance trading as we as we probably currently see it as a product of body building originates from from having a high volume of training and the perception that we need to target muscles individually as well as left heavy weights by doing come from movements. And of course you know also obviously Arthur Jones obviously said or suggested that the last didn't get sufficient stimulus from things like a pull down or a chain exercise because they were the stronger muscle. So there was a need to do a single joint movement in the likes of the pullover and we know where that kind of led with Nautilus and so forth. So you know I think that this debate has come around of of you know is there a need for these additional single joint exercises or can we get a lot or all of the same benefits from only multi joint movements. And if we can then can we really abbreviate workouts down on the more abbreviated or workout becomes the more we might be able to get more people to exercise and simplify protocols for for people that currently perceived exercise to be complicated and time consuming.
Adam [00:05:54] Yeah you know that reminds me when you talked about the bodybuilding world feeling that these single join or simple movements are necessary to build muscle and create hypertrophy hypertrophy is a fancy word for just getting getting big getting swaddle reminds me of an episode we did with the body builder Doug Brignole and he is he's of the belief that you definitely need to do single joint movements for hypertrophy for sure and multiple sets in large volume and really kind of pooh poohed the idea that you need movements for that effect.
James [00:06:30] Yeah. I think a lot of bodybuilders do this because they you know let's take a typical bodybuilding workout of you know very high volume you know five to 10 sets of exercises and an hours and hours spent in the gym doing various split routines. Well if they're going to target a single muscle group or only a couple of muscle groups in a workout. But they want to allocate two hours of time to training. Well they're not going to they're probably not going to allocate themselves through 20 or 30 sets of a bench press or a chest press or a shoulder press so they add in multiple single joint movements which is understandable for variety. And if they feel that that volume is necessary but I think that this is the way the question has arisen is that volume really necessary. We all know the kind of single multiple set debate but but I guess that this is a transitioned into a single joint multi joint exercise. I know bodybuilders still like the single joint movement but I think for the masses there the evidence points in a different direction.
Adam [00:07:35] Okay. So speaking of evidence. So you did a review article. I'll read it. I'll read the title it's called a review of the acute effects of long term adaptations of single and multi joint exercises during resistance training. Well why don't we start with the conclusion. Well what what did you end. We can get it. You know we can kind of break down a little bit but what what did you ultimately find out when you compared the efficacy of multi joint exercises versus single joint or combination thereof.
Adam [00:08:03] Yeah. So the preponderance of research was done on upper body muscles. So for example the biceps and triceps most of the measurements are taken on the limb muscles rather than the torso muscles so that's worth clarifying. First of all the conclusions basically all out there. There are no benefits to performing single joint movements in addition to multi joint exercises. So to put that in context if you're looking for a bicep or tricep growth then performing a multi joint movement such as the chest press or a lap pulled down will produce let's say a lot pulled down will produce similar growth in the biceps and strength increases in the biceps as a lot pulled down and a bicep curl. And the same thing is true for the triceps less has been done to look at the muscles of the trunk. Very little has been done to look at the muscles of the lower body. So those are the conclusions from the paper.
Adam [00:08:59] OK. So one of the markers you used to test and compare was this thing called electro Myo graphic activation.
James [00:09:06] Yeah.
Adam [00:09:06] Otherwise known as what. As EMG.
James [00:09:09] SEMG surface yeah.
Adam [00:09:12] It would be interesting for some of our listeners understand some of the tests are actually occurring and how researchers are actually testing these things. So what exactly is that. By the way.
James [00:09:21] So surface EMG is basically you put electrodes on a muscle and you measure the amount of electrical activity within the muscle. So as it contracts has a higher degree of electrical activity and you're measuring that across a course of muscle. This is generally a proxy for motor unit activation which which is basically the. Which includes the activation of muscle fibers or the recruitment of muscle fibers so where we see higher EMG readings. That's generally a perception that there are more motor units being activated and more muscle fibers being recruited.
Adam [00:10:00] So what you're finding then when you're comparing multi joint exercise is the single joint exercise you're finding that the EMG activation is the same regardless.
James [00:10:11] We found that the EMG was pretty similar and there was a couple of studies. There was a study that springs to mind with the lower body for this for EMG actually where we found you know very similar activation the quadriceps whether you're performing a leg press or a knee extension. So yes the muscle activation seems to be pretty similar perhaps marginally higher for four single joint movements which is which is something the bodybuilders will lean against to say oh well that's higher due to recruitment but if I take away from or if I thought the detract from electro Magnifique it's only an acute measure. So it's only a snapshot in time. So so whilst it might imply a measurement of muscle activation which is like I said it's only a proxy. Oh sorry I might give a measure of muscle activation. It only gives a proxy for motor unit recruitment muscle fiber equipment and doesn't give any guidance towards muscle fiber adaptation both for strength or muscle cross-sectional area. So a surface EMG is a great tool for scientists to play with but I constantly tell practitioners honestly it doesn't mean a lot in the real world. What you want to look at is is chronic studies. I've looked at muscle size and muscle strength.
Adam [00:11:36] So you're saying that there is not a correlation between necessarily higher muscle activation or muscle recruitment towards muscle hypertrophy or strength.
James [00:11:46] Yeah I think that's a fact. I think that fair common. I don't think that there is a good a good relationship between the two. And like I said it's a service life elected mammography is really a snapshot in time so its logic suggests that if you see higher muscle activation and that does equate to motor unit activation and muscle fiber recruitment then that exercise would be better for growth and strength. And it's completely logical to assume that but the test is will instead of just looking at self of mammography let's look at the muscle. Did it get bigger and did it get stronger. And let's look at it over time rather than a snapshot. So let's look at it over 8 10 12 24 weeks and when we do that we don't see differences.
Adam [00:12:34] You also looked at besides surface level activation you also looked at muscle damage and fatigue. Correct?
James [00:12:40] Yeah absolutely.
Adam [00:12:41] And so there's a correlation there like for example that you found that a single joint exercises if I remember correctly that the single joint exercises created slightly more muscle damage and fatigue than this multiple joint exercises. Yet once again you didn't see much difference in my approach for your strength gains.
James [00:12:59] Yeah absolutely. So yeah the studies really really do support if you do a single joint movement then that's going to produce a greater fatigue in that muscle compared to multi joint movement. So if I do a bicep curl then that's going to produce great fatigue in the biceps then a pull down exercise.
Mike [00:13:20] That's what Brignole is kind of his point is that maybe he's saying and that's why he supports that.
James [00:13:26] From what I can gather from the podcast that you did with Doug. Yeah I think that's why he was getting at and he talked a bit about muscle damage as a product of the single trade movements. But again this is moving out of my my remit it muscle damage is a very very big research area and it's not my specific area. There's a guy called Philippe Moss over in Brazil who's an expert in this and more recently he suggested against single measurements of muscle damage are really not a good indicator of long term muscle growth there needs to be a kind of a sustained or that needs to be a sustained amount of muscle damage berfore the muscle will kind of consider adding size to that. So my fiber and I think size of the muscle and then of course that needs to be appropriate recovery between trainer sessions. So it's not just a single dose.
Mike [00:14:17] I guess the trick is to figure out how to calculate what that dose is how much damage is necessary.
Adam [00:14:24] You know how much recovery is necessary based on that damage.
James [00:14:28] Well these are the key questions because we can we can all go into the gym and cause a massive amount of muscle damage. Or we go way beyond what we need to do and therefore you know creating quite debilitating effects towards recovery. And I think that this is where the high intensity training community are far more measured in their approach that you take that you perform a minimal amount of muscle damage or minimal stimulus to promote recovery adaptation.
Adam [00:14:59] Yeah well being in the trenches for as many years I've been training thousands Mike and I trained thousands of people. It varies from individual as well you know. So some people recover a lot faster than others some people can even go that deep and get to that level of muscle. So it's really becomes an observational thing and experience as an instructor to to figure out for the individual what what is best for them how deep to go how much inroad how much recovery if any for.
Mike [00:15:26] And frequency as well. Yeah.
Adam [00:15:30] But getting back to that to the topic of compound versus simple movements and of course this is related. Did you find that for compound movements do you need more recovery than simple movements if you did say for example a workout that had all simple movements and then you compare that to work out that were primarily compound movements and did you look at the recovery ability for each.
James [00:15:53] OK. You put me on the spot bit. I don't recall whether we had a paper that had looked at the long term response fatigue or discomfort. There is a paper that springs to mind again by I think a Brazilian guy called SUA Suarez. I think it was and he looked at recovery in single joint movements. I think it was in the bicep curl and he sort of reported a high high degree of dogs kind of muscle fatigue. You know 48 and I think even extended 72 hours so but I don't recall that being a study which compared single joint multi joint for that I might be I may be wrong if I go back and look at the paper it was published a couple of years back so.
Adam [00:16:37] What is it. Well obviously this is a consideration and these are one of the questions that we need to be answered over time as we do more research and exercise. So a lot of question marks obviously. So in conclusion let let's wrap this up. I just wanted to ask now about application. So here we find that it doesn't seem that there is much of a difference between the effectiveness of simple joint movements versus compound movements. So. Would you therefore suggest that people if they wanted to work out or trainers as they train their clients do they do primarily do you recommend that primarily do the multi joint exercises over the single joint. Mix them up alter or what.
James [00:17:20] So so to wrap up the research generally suggests that there are no greater adaptations to performing single joint in addition to multi joint exercises that really multi joint exercises are sufficient with the exception of the lumbar expenses. So I've performed or I've conducted a few studies where we've looked at the low back and we've used the medics medical lumbar extension machine. We've looked at deadlifts squats we've looked at hip thrusts we've looked at kettlebell swings and we found that all of these as multi joint movements don't provide sufficient stimulus to increase the strength of the lumbar expenses. So it looks like this muscle because of the nature of the pelvic rotation and therefore the activation of the glutes and the hamstrings this muscle does need specific training. Isolate the training and we might find the same thing is true for other muscles. For example the gastric themis might not get sufficient stimulus from a like pressure or a squat exercise. But at the moment the preponderance of evidence suggests that multi joint exercises are sufficient. Now the way I pitch this from a practical perspective is that a trainer or a trainee should perform multi joint compound movements first in that workout. So if you said to me you've only got one workout to do today well I might do a deadlift or like press if you said you've got two workouts I might add a chest press or an overhead press a third a third exercise might be another compound movement a fourth might be an additional compound movement. So I'm prioritizing in the first maybe four or five exercises compound movements. Now if people feel like they can do four or five compound movements to a high enough intensity of effort to stimulate good adaptation and they want to do more well then they might move into targeting the biceps for the bicep curl or the deltoid through the lateral raise or the quadriceps for the knee extension. And I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. If they want to perform a higher volume of trading but I think you're really dealing with the minutiae of adaptation. Now I think you're probably going to get most of the adaptations in the multi joint and then the best maybe a little bit more from the single joint but of course we have to remember those single joint movements might incur a greater degree of fatigue and discomfort which might prevent a workout sooner the next workout being sooner rather later.
Adam [00:19:56] Right, recovery. And I also think you mentioned that there is a place for single joint movements for example to correct muscular imbalances. So it's not like we're throwing single joint movements out you know they do have their place and also like you said there are certain muscle groups like maybe the calves and biceps and I do want to know by the way as a bit of a plug when you talked about the lumbar medics machines all our Inform Fitness studios have the medics lumber machines in order to isolate the lumber and fix the hips and place because that is a very difficult muscle group to isolate and therefore strengthen. And we've we've known that for years and that's why we have those machines at Inform Fitness, a little shameless plug right there.
James [00:20:39] Well they are most important machines exist in resistance training with the research we've done we see huge strength increases even in you know competitive powerlifting that can squat 300 something kilos you know 700 800 pounds that have you know lower back no stronger than mine and for clarity I don't squat those kind of weights.
Adam [00:21:02] All right. You are a big strong guy though so you're very modest as well. Thank you so much James. That was great. What's next? What's next for the research in this are you doing anything else right now?
James [00:21:13] Yeah so we've done another study looking at this right. We've looked at so I said most of the research was upper body. We've done another study looking at this in the lower body and it's not published yet so I generally don't get into too much detail. But we have the group that performed knee extension and leg curl exercise on a group that performed only leg press exercise and as a spoiler. We found that both groups made...
Adam [00:21:39] You are hearing it here first folks.
James [00:21:40] Yeah absolutely. Both groups made a fact what they did is the participants trained one leg with knee extension unlike curl on one leg would leg press. And we found that's quite a nice research design because it accommodates kind of nutritional variance or sleep variance genetics or it's things like that. And we found similar adaptations to both groups. Both groups improved to a significant increase. A significant amount on all the single joints of both the knee extension and the like. And on the leg press irrespective of why exercises they did we could use this to say well maybe this allows variety maybe for the next eight weeks all I need to do is train on a leg press but after that maybe I could do knee extensions and leg curl.
Mike [00:22:26] For like you're committed trainer a trainee rather who is in there to to get strong or whatever other long term people I think that variability is actually very important.
Adam [00:22:35] Psychologically psychologically why not.
Mike [00:22:37] Yes.
Adam [00:22:37] And there's no difference one way or the other. Why not. Right. Again James thank you so much. Dr. Fisher.
James [00:22:43] Thank you very much gentlemen. Thank you.
Arlene [00:22:45] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform Fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars... Exercise nutrition and recovery.