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Stories of Wonder platforms and celebrates the real impact Deakin students, alumni, researchers and staff are making in the world, right now.
Deakin University CRICOS Provider Code: 00113B
- Kate Naess, welcome
to "Stories of Wonder."
- Thanks, Dom.
Pleasure to be here.
- Pleasure to have you.
So you're a Paralympian, you're
a registered psychologist,
a keynote speaker, high
performance coach, a mom,
and now an author.
Your career spans so
many different worlds.
So I'm curious, when you zoom out
and look at it all, what
feels like the thread
that's connecting everything together?
- Yeah, it's a great question.
I think for me, zooming out
and thinking about the thread
that connects it all together,
I guess probably is
something that was instilled
for me from a mindset perspective
when I was quite young.
And I was always given
opportunity to try things,
especially being born
with a hand difference.
And I think for me, that set me up
to always have the desire
to try challenge and learn.
I've always loved learning, I still do.
I'm so fascinated by what
humans are capable of.
So, and I think for me, you know,
through various experiences,
I see how quick, you know,
we lose loved ones
or things can happen to us
from a health perspective.
And so for me, I'm about just
trying to seize the moment
and I have no regrets.
- And you do talk about
how everything comes down
to how you respond to the
hand that you are dealt.
Which again is the name of your book
that's here with us today.
Where did this mindset begin for you?
And I guess how did you
start navigating that
at, I assume a pretty young age?
- Yeah, so I was born
with a hand difference
and my parents didn't
know I was gonna be born
with a hand difference until I was born.
So you can imagine,
obviously having your child
and then seeing
that there was a physical
difference would've been a bit
of a shock initially for them.
What came next though was
probably the crux of it
that actually had a catalyst
moment for my parents.
But also what became the foundations
for me in my mindset,
because the doctors said to my parents
that my life was gonna be really hard.
It was gonna be really difficult.
I wouldn't be able to do things
like ride a bike properly,
tie my shoelaces, I have finger buds.
They had suggested removing them.
So you can imagine what that
would be like as a parent.
Not only just realising, oh, our daughter
has a physical difference,
but being told that that's
gonna make my life harder
or be very limiting in
what I can and can't do.
And when my parents got
over that initial shock
and grief, they realised
that I actually hadn't lost anything.
So I hadn't lost a hand.
I was perfectly whole as I was.
And so they challenged
the assumption that were being made about
what my life was gonna
be like from the doctors.
And they then decided from
that day on, Kate will try
and learn and do whatever
she would like to.
And if she doesn't do it the
way that we assume is normal,
then we'll try and figure out
another way for her to do it.
And from then on, it just, you know,
it's established the foundations for me
just to try different things
and never be worried
about trying new things.
And it just allowed my life
to flourish from a young age.
- Amazing foundations that they set
and amazing, I don't know,
a big list of decisions
that they had to be confronted with.
- Yeah.
- In how to navigate that.
Let's talk about your
early days a little bit.
So as you said, you were
born with a hand difference.
You've spoken about moments
growing up when you were told
certain things wouldn't be possible,
even things like playing
the violin or riding horses.
So you've spoken about how
your parents dealt with that.
For you as you moved
through those early years
when you were confronted
with those sorts of, you're
not gonna be able to do things.
Can you talk me through how
you started navigating those
and how you started going,
"Hmm, we'll see about that."
- I think from a young
age, it wasn't as simple
or as straightforward all the time,
especially as I got older
and probably at the latter end
of primary school going into
teenage years, if, you know,
people reflect on teenage
years, there's always a bit of,
you know, it's a tough time and it can be.
- Yes.
- And just navigating life.
And for me, I actually
was quite self-conscious
about my hand, probably more so,
you know, if I reflect back
now more in primary school,
I actually used to dread going to school,
like back to school in
February 'cause it was so hot
and I used to like to wear my
jumper so it covered my hand.
And, but everyone knew like,
so my parents had spoken
to all the teachers, they all knew
and they were set up in
ways to support me there.
But I still had that,
you know, the human side
to being vulnerable and
showing my full self.
But I think what really
supported me was having people
that have your back, right?
That are always gonna go in
and see things a bit differently
that can actually limit
things that are gonna come
up for you as barriers.
And my parents did that
by speaking with the school and all that.
And it didn't always mean
there weren't gonna be
sort of hurdles to get over.
Like sometimes teachers'
best interests at heart
would still be like, oh,
you know, "Can you do that?"
Or rushing me to do something
which is gonna take me longer
to do and they're not really realising.
And so it was just trial and error
and I guess going with it
and seeing what happened.
I think kids are curious.
I talk a lot about curiosity
these days around with adults
especially what I didn't have
when I was younger, which,
I realise now as an adult
myself with young kids,
is kids are fabulous at just being curious
and asking questions.
And it doesn't come from ill intent,
it's just what we then start to,
I guess frame it as they learn
that it's a right or wrong thing.
So what happened for me
as a kid was people would
be curious about my hand
but realise, oh, maybe
they can't ask or do that.
And so then it kind of became
this thing if they would see
my hand at school.
And so I was always felt like I had
to hide it to avoid that.
- So it was almost like
a shared awkwardness.
- Yeah.
- By both sides.
- Yeah, and so now it's like,
well if people are more curious
and feel more normal about
just having the conversation
about something like disability,
then it isn't as
confronting for me or them
and it's just is normal.
So I think that's something
that helped a lot when I was younger.
And then yeah, just
trying different things.
- So it was mostly trial and error.
- Trial and error.
- Through the way.
- Still is.
- And how did this influence you?
Was there anything in it about proving
people's assumptions wrong
and what were your assumptions
about what your abilities
were, I guess case by case?
Were there some that you were like,
"I think I can figure this out,"
or were there some that
were, were quite daunting
but you gave a go anyway?
- Yeah, well I still haven't
mastered the monkey bars.
Maybe that's something I will-
- That is very fair.
- Figure out at some point.
From memory, for me, I
was just a kid that liked
to try new things and maybe
I was just born stubborn.
Maybe that got me by.
But I remember wanting to
try to ride the bike
and yes, it wasn't that
safe initially to like,
'cause I couldn't
necessarily use the brakes.
But then we learned,
you know, when I say we,
my parents were pivotal in
all of these alternative ways
of doing things when I was younger,
but having breaks on
the pedals was something
that was really important for me.
And playing the violin at school,
our class was learning
the violin in grade three.
And initially the teachers, you know,
not through real intent but like,
well you can't play the violin.
How are you gonna hold the violin bow
so you can do something
else while the kids
are playing the violin?
And my parents were
like, "Well we don't know
how she's gonna hold the violin bow
but there's no way she's
not gonna be included
in that class."
And back then the myoelectric hand,
the prosthetic was being developed
and there's some amazing
prosthetics out there now,
and I was about seven at the time.
So being fitted with a
prosthetic would be the same
as you getting a
prosthetic over your hand.
It felt so foreign
'cause I'd learned to do
so many different things without it.
But it turned out it actually
helped me hold the violin bow
'cause I could actually open and close it
and then all of a sudden,
I was playing the violin.
So I think we have to
really challenge assumptions
that we make about others.
But when they're made about
ourselves really lean in
and, you know, are we actually believing
what is being said about us?
And where's the evidence in that?
And yeah, how much do we want things
to be different if we wanna try something
or learn something new.
'Cause I think once I'm
told I can't, then I always,
something kicks in and
I'm like, "Well hang on.
Wait, I can."
- Yeah.
- And I think that's
probably, if we go back
to when you said earlier
about the thread that's been
through it all, I think
that's probably been
one of the biggest.
- I think so.
So we move on
and you started riding horses
at a pretty young age as well
and you went on to represent Australia.
Looking back, what did the
early years of sport give you?
And you know, were there
moments in those early years
where I know you felt unstoppable?
- I felt very stoppable.
If we think about it, it's kind of ironic
that I made a career my
later years as an athlete,
yet I hated sport at school.
- Really?
- Yeah, yeah.
So I hope I'm not sort of
giving away too much here.
Oh, she's a fraud.
- The Paralympian who hates sport.
I can see the headline now.
- Yeah, I hated sport at school
- Really?
- Why?
Probably 'cause I was
self-conscious about my hand.
But it's school sports we're
always like team sports.
So like baseball, netball,
all my mates are really good at netball.
And so I was like, ugh,
I didn't like, you know,
the competitive side to it there.
Baseball, softball.
Yeah, I just didn't love it.
I was not a runner.
Like I had any kind of athletic sports.
I remember I hyperventilated
doing the 800 metre at school.
Like I was just not that way inclined.
- Did you ever have to do like the 2K run?
Is that it?
- I don't know.
Yeah, I'll never forget that 800.
Oh yeah, yeah.
That was full on.
And I went to school with a guy
that ended up becoming an AFL
player and a pretty good one.
So yeah, you know, he kind of put us all
to shame, but I didn't like it then.
But I loved horse riding and
that was still trial and error,
trying to figure out how to hold the rein.
We did try and use my electric
hand for riding once and-
- Yeah, how did you end up doing it?
Yeah, did it fly well?
What happened?
- I did.
So we had my electric hand connected,
like attached to the rein.
- Yeah.
- And I was only learning
to ride at this stage,
so my horse was probably, I
felt like he was galloping,
but he probably was just in a canter
and I've kind of fallen off.
And by the time my mom came over
and realised, "Oh yep, she's okay.
No broken bones or anything," we realised
that I didn't have the prosthetic on.
And so we looked over and my
horse was still running still
and my electric hand is bouncing along.
So even though I didn't
like certain sports,
there was still challenges for the horses
and the sports I did like.
I did love swimming as a kid.
Something about being in the water.
And to this day, like I love swimming
for that sort of mindful practise
and I chose the horses
obviously at a younger age.
So then just progressed that way.
But yeah, as I got into
high school, you know,
hate to admit it, but I was
the kid that used to wag sport
and disappear when we had to go off
and play against other schools.
- Do you have a lot of notes?
Notes from parents don't need to attend?
- I don't PE today.
- Right? Yeah.
- Yeah I did but I wasn't-
- This is a big reveal for them.
- Yeah, I know.
Well.
- Sorry mom and dad.
- It's all right. I'm made up for it now.
- Yeah.
Deakin comes into your life at some point.
So you've studied a
Bachelor of Applied Science,
then a graduate diploma
of Applied Psychology
and later a master of industrial
and organisational psychology.
How did you decide on this
path from where you came from
and why Deakin?
- Well I definitely didn't initially
feel I would end up in like definitely
doing a master's in org psych.
That wasn't where it
sort of started from that
and working backwards.
The whole interest in
psychology came from a young age
when I was so fascinated by
how powerful our mind is.
And perhaps that came
through from, you know,
the assumptions people made about
what I could or couldn't do.
But then it progressed more as I got older
and came a teenager, I
had some health concerns
and it was more a mental
thing more so than, you know,
just a physical thing.
And so I was so curious about
the mind and body connection.
And I always loved being in
places where if I did something
and that was a catalyst for someone else
to try something that gave me a lot of,
it was just a really fulfilling, right?
Sort of like a mentor.
And I don't like the word inspirational,
but that kind of something
that came about as I started
to, you know, play the violin
and then move through
doing different things.
So I was like, wow, there's
so much in the power
of just our mindset and
how we approach things.
And so I was very curious.
So I thought I'm always
gonna study psychology
at some point.
I then as I got further up into sport,
I realised there is this whole element
of performance psychology
and sports psychology.
So I was curious about that.
And I thought,
"Where do I wanna go with this?"
And now I probably could
have just gone straight down
pure psychology.
But I chose not to
because why I chose the
undergrad in applied science.
'Cause it gave me scope
to actually try other
sort of subjects that I
actually had curiosity
and interest about.
And I think I'm grateful for that
'cause it gave me exposure
to a more balanced approach.
And then,
I started off doing like forensics
in my fourth year.
- Oh really?
- Turns out I really just
like watching the shows.
I don't wanna study it.
And then it turned out it got to a point
prior to doing my master's
so I didn't go all the
way through back to back.
So I had time off, I
was competing overseas,
I did some exams overseas.
So I did the whole thing
over probably too many years
but we finally got there.
- Well you've had a lot on.
- Yeah, and the reason I
ended up doing a master's
of organisational psychology
was because as I was progressing
and getting higher in my sport,
I was learning about this
performance psychology
and the science behind
high performing teams
and engagement and how do we
get the best out of each other,
our teams, etc.
And then I would be working in a job
where I would be like,
"Surely, there's more to this."
We have to go to work like every day.
It wasn't engaging, wasn't fulfilling
and I didn't really understand
what it was at the at the time then.
- What kind of job are you talking about?
- I did lots of different jobs
just through, when I was studying.
So I did some jobs in recruitment,
I did some jobs in admin.
A lot of it sort of whatever balance
with me being able to be an athlete
and I just thought there's
something about work, what is it
that makes it tick, makes
it really enjoyable.
And that's where I started
to get curious about
what is the connection from
a high performance sport
and the workplace.
And this is where I really
started to understand
this concept around employee
engagement and culture.
And I was super fascinated about that.
And also the power of leadership
and the impact you can have on others.
And that's where organisational psychology
kind of came about.
And initially, I thought
there is no way in the world
I'm gonna do org psych.
I do not wanna be in a suit
and I do not wanna be in an office.
And turns out it actually
was where I needed to be.
So that's why the org
psych masters came up
and yeah, it just explored
that and I'm so glad I did
and I'm so glad I still gave
myself options along the way.
- Yeah.
- And why Deakin?
- And why Deakin?
Because Deakin was a university
that saw me more than just a student.
So I was an athlete and they
were very supportive of that.
They were very supportive of me
to do some exams overseas
when I was training
and competing over in Europe.
And the flexibility for me was fantastic
because I was not close to the university,
but I was able to do a lot of my study
form where I was training down
on the Mornington Peninsula.
And then when I came to do my masters,
ironically, it was the first
time I was on campus full time
out of my whole academic career.
And it was great.
And still friends with people
And still friends with people
that I did my masters with back then.
- That's great
- Today, yeah.
- Interesting how you had to reframe
the organisational psychology
sort of studies a little bit.
But there's a really clear thread in there
in what you've been
able to redefine that as
and use that for and apply that to.
Any highlights?
So you've any lecturers
that you know you particularly
enjoyed learning from?
Any friends you made along the way?
Favourite cafe when you finally
did do your masters here?
- I was very fond of
doing my masters here.
I guess if we think about lecturers, so,
Simon Albright was my supervisor.
He was very supportive of me.
When it came to my thesis,
I still didn't really
know what I was was doing.
And so he was able to
really support and guide
and allow elements of
what I was curious about
come to fruition in my thesis.
And Mark Stokes, he
definitely had an impact
because I hated statistics.
I'm don't know if I'm
supposed to say that out loud.
- So a lot of what being revealed today.
Didn't like sports.
- Yeah
- It's statistics.
- But I could do it, right?
I don't know how, I just could do it.
And Mark would come in, you know,
with his pretty sure he had an earring
and his leather jacket
and I'm like, oh okay, I would make
that assumption, which I should
never do about, you know,
someone that does stats.
And then I remember one day he said to me,
"Kate, I need to have a
chat with you after class."
And I thought, "Oh here we go."
It was like high school all over again.
What have I done now? (laughs)
And he said to me, he goes,
"Oh Kate, would you be
interested in doing a PhD?"
And I kind of laughed and
I felt bad for laughing.
I'm like, "No?"
(both laugh)
But maybe, you know, never say never.
But at the time, I just
didn't see myself I guess
in that area because I was probably still
so passionate about my sport.
But I loved that he saw something in me.
He goes, "I see you at the
back, you're very quiet
but I know that you know
what we're talking about
and what we're doing."
And so I'm like, "Wow.
He saw something in me
that I'd actually probably
didn't give myself credit for."
So that had an impact on me
and the people I went to school
with that I studied with,
definitely a lot smarter than
me, just put it out there.
They're amazing to with
as as peers doing masters.
So they've all gone off
and doing some pretty
amazing things out there now.
- That's good.
Some good outcomes there.
- Yeah.
- What opportunities did you get through
doing these courses at Deakin?
Did it connect you with some
organisations you wanted
to work with, give you
experiences as you were studying?
- Yeah, it did.
I had some great options for placements,
especially my masters.
And that was great
because there wasn't
necessarily always a clear path
that, you know, I knew I wanted to go down
and so to have the options
of trying different things was great.
I did a placement at Telstra,
I did another placement
with a consultant, Gavin
Freeman who does a lot
around sport as well, his business,
which was really exciting
back then for me.
And then I did another placement
at Heidrick & Struggles, a consulting firm
of which I'm still connected
to someone that I worked under there
and still do work with them today.
- That's amazing.
And as you move, like when did the path
that you're on now as you were studying
begin to show itself?
'Cause it sounds like
there was still a lot
of it revealed itself
to you eventually how
what you're learning here
can be implemented in a way
that no one was quite
doing that way at the time
or in a field that maybe
we don't see that in.
- Yeah, it's a great question.
I guess I probably just always followed
what I was passionate about
and where that showed up
and where the opportunity was.
So that initially was around
leadership development
and team culture and still
learning as I went through,
for example, the placements
and then to jobs after uni.
But I feel it's really coming
to life, I'd probably say now.
So it's just probably
gone a bit over 10 years
since I finished my masters.
- Right.
- So it has been a build
and you know, steps along the
way that have all connected,
but now it's really coming to
fruition where I can blend my,
you know, almost two decades
in elite sport as an athlete
and then also working in high
performance sport as well.
Leading wellbeing and leading Olympic
and Paralympic teams to
then also the work I've done
internally consulting,
sorry, internally in roles
and then also externally as a consultant,
blending this world now
around high performance.
And what does it mean?
Because there's so many things
that I see that are quite similar.
If we think about an elite athlete
and we think about someone
in the corporate world,
so say professional services.
So they're fundamentally the same
in how they operate in high pressure,
high stakes environments, right?
There's always a lot of variables at play.
Outcomes, expectations for the athlete.
It's medals, it's times,
it's showing up and being
able to get selected
for certain races.
If these don't happen,
you know, you lose money,
you lose whatever it is.
And then that impacts
whether the team gets spots
at big events, etc.
And how many team members you might get
at the Paralympic Paralympic campaigns.
Now someone in the corporate world
actually is operating in the same way.
High stakes, high pressure,
got KPIs, got outcomes,
got clients, gotta win
work, gotta sell work,
gotta perform, right?
However, the fundamental difference
is athletes are strategically
trained how to recover
and how to mentally recover
and physically recover.
Whereas in the corporate world,
it's more around, you know,
we reward like the push and
the, you know, longer hours
and that comes at a cost at some point.
If an athlete operated like that,
which a lot of athletes
do, like to just do more,
push harder, etc. it won't allow us
to be able to perform at our best.
It'll come at a cost
and usually that will
show up as injury, etc.
And in the corporate world it
doesn't show up as evidently
as it does with athletes, right?
So where we're seeing that is, you know,
the burnout is still still a thing
and people feel like the more I push
after a while over, you know,
a lot of time in certain roles,
it then comes-
- At a cost.
- Somewhere in their lives.
Whether it's in relationships, etc.,
sacrificing perhaps health, etc.
So, where I see this opportunity of,
in the work I do today
now is how I blend this
and how we actually understand the human
that is in these environments
that we're operating in.
And there's always an assumption when I go
and have these conversations,
but we are not athletes, right?
You guys have coaches, you
have all of this other support
and I said we're advised on things,
but it also is up to us in what we do
and how we do, you know,
we do get a bit more
of a strategy around when
we're racing, when we're not.
But we get taught this art of recovery
that isn't about doing
formal, you know, processes
around physical recovery and massage,
whatever you kind of visualise
when I talk about recovery.
It's the mental side.
It's how do I go from,
I got three sessions in
one day all really hard,
how do I go from the morning one
that was shocking into a next one
and shop like I that morning
didn't even happen, right?
So there's the art of how
you can actually recover
from moment session to
session meeting to meeting
to be able to sustain.
- Most of us don't have-
- No we just sort of-
- Framework at all for that.
- Yeah.
So there were things that we taught
and what I have more so around
my curiosity around as well
how we can function better as individuals.
And a lot of that sits within us
but we just need to build
that self-awareness of what they are.
And so what of that is then it comes back
to the culture engagement, the ROI like.
So it all links together.
So I'm still doing what I love
and it's just kind of all,
I guess been stepping
stones along the way.
Well speaking of high performance,
while you were studying,
as you mentioned, you were
doing a lot of different things.
So can you take us
through all the different
sort of plates you were
spinning while you were doing
your various studies and
what that was like to balance
and how you were supported?
- Sure.
So my undergrad
is a three year undergrad,
which I believe,
I hate to admit it, but
I think it took me seven,
that's a long time.
I'm gonna go check that.
At least five years, maybe seven to do.
So I had time off.
- We've all got, yeah,
we've all got a, yeah,
I've got one too.
It's not quite that
long but it's still is.
- It's long.
I'm really gonna check that.
But that's a good example
of the fact that you can get through it.
And what I loved about
actually taking my time
in my undergrad in the
profession that I was wanting
to go down was I gained
so much life experience
while I was studying, right?
And if I had gone
and just rushed through it,
I probably wouldn't be
on the path I am today.
So I was very grateful for that
and I had the support of Deakin
and being able, as I said
earlier, to be overseas
to do my exams and still be able to train.
So I was learning the academic side
but I was also learning the life skills
and the side around, you
know, being resilient
and showing up and what
it took to be dedicated
and committed to actually go
and do my exam somewhere
overseas when, you know,
I could have chosen not to do that
but that was an option.
So if I didn't have that as an option,
it would've been a lot harder for me
to finish my studies even
though it took forever.
And then come to my fourth
year, to my grad year,
I actually split that over two years.
My mom had breast cancer
and had come back, so during that time,
and I was a full-time carer.
So it was really, really
challenging time for me.
And so I split the studies
the one year over the two.
And Deakin were really
supportive about that.
It wouldn't really matter
why I was doing it,
but that was okay.
And it also gave me time
to actually think about
where did I want to actually
focus on for my fourth year.
And I actually ended up what
I thought would be my passion
around, you know, sort
of the forensic side.
Turned out wasn't something
I could probably live
and breathe as a profession.
I just really am curious about that space.
And then I was able to then pursue
something else when it came to my masters.
And my master's was where I was able
to actually be on campus full time
for the first time out of all my studies.
So I really enjoyed coming on campus then.
And totally different experience,
but definitely all of
them worked really well.
Having the online opportunities
even when I was, you know,
through the undergrad et
cetera was really great.
- Yeah, good that you had that flexibility
amongst all of that.
And finally, in regards to
Deakin, are there things
that you learned during your time here
that you still use day
to day in your work?
- Yeah, the only constant is change.
Something we talk about a lot.
Simon was really influential,
Simon Burt in that
and our, you know, the
science practitioner model
and approach to how we do things,
how I write things very
influenced by even sort of some
of the stuff in my book,
how I would write things.
You can't take the academic
outta me even though you know,
it is more my story.
There's still references in
there to people of influence.
because I was, you know,
it wasn't really on campus
until my masters
it was more around just me being dedicated
and where you wanted to
explore and learn more.
There were always
opportunities to do that.
And whoever were my lecturers
or supervisors, the door was always open.
They were always happy for me to come in
and ask questions, etc.
So I think that was
really valuable for me.
And just having the curiosity,
especially when, you know,
lecturer comes up to you and
asks about what do you wanna do
after your masters?
You know, just the curiosity
of people taking into
consideration everyone in the room,
not just sort of sharing
information and that's it.
So that's definitely
been influential for me.
- Nice.
So you finished your studies in 2014.
You were talking about it just before,
it was a difficult period in your life
around this time,
I guess how did you navigate this
and what kept you going?
- So when I was doing my masters,
so 2014, I finished my master's
and mom passed away in 2010.
So during that time,
I definitely struggled a little bit
'cause I had a gap between
doing my fourth year
and then my masters 'cause
I was still competing.
However, what kept me going
was absolutely realising
that I didn't know what was
coming next at one point.
So I was doing my masters'
while I was navigating grief
of losing mom.
My horse, I had competed at
the world equestrian games
in 2010 and my horse
didn't travel very well
and so he nearly died
travelling to that event,
which was a huge.
It was a lot to take
from that perspective.
I was able to compete,
but I really just valued being able
to be there and get my horse home.
And mum was really sick at the same time
and we lost her three months later.
So what got me through was realising
that we don't always
have to be superhuman.
The mask can come off and it did
and I allowed it to come off.
And I, you know, struggled
a lot with the grief.
It impacted me in ways that showed up
in my mental health with anxiety.
And I found the comfort
through connection and with my friends.
And I knew that life was
not great at that point
and I didn't really know
where I wanted to go,
especially 'cause my sporting
career potentially was over
'cause my horse wasn't gonna be eligible
for the London Paralympics.
And I just sat with it, you know,
and I just let my life
kind of unfold in a way
without trying to control it.
And that was the perspective I
brought with me at that time.
I'm not sure where this is
gonna go, but I'm not gonna try
and make it something it's not.
And just sit with the discomfort
of what was happening for me.
And then it actually allowed me to,
I guess, learn more about myself in ways
that I hadn't probably understood
because I was so used to
having the long-term goals
and the smaller goals.
So the acceptance
of the unknown was really
important for me there.
And by not trying to control
what was coming next allowed me
to do things that I never
thought I was able to do.
And, you know, I was
never a runner at school.
As I said, I hyperventilated
during the 800
and I discovered running, not
because I was enjoying it,
but it helped with my mental health.
And so I just started running
and I really missed
the connection of sport
because I wasn't around the
equestrian world as much then.
And so I joined a local sort of, you know,
the local gym kind of run group.
And that's where I was getting that sense
of community back and that connection.
And then I went on and long story short,
I actually found out I was
pretty good at the swim, bike,
and run business.
And where I thought I was
gonna be on a start line
on a horse at the Paralympics.
Turned out I was on a beach at Copacabana
about to do a triathlon.
And I think if I had the mindset
that it was all over,
I wouldn't after equestrian
then, it definitely wouldn't
have flourished the way it did.
And I'm so grateful of just
showing up and kept going.
And for me, the thing
that really stood out
for me at the time was
not knowing the outcome.
So this art of acceptance
of if I make the start line,
I make the start line, I may not.
That's like, I can't
control that at this point.
All I can do is control how I show up.
And so I took what I knew
about high performance sport
from a mental side and accepted
and was okay with the fact
that I was now a learner
again in a new craft, right?
And so then I went and
spoke to other athletes,
coaches, you know,
athletes that were either
the juniors, Olympians,
Paralympians, you know, just doing
sort of community triathlon, whoever,
and just absorbed as much as I could.
And wherever there was an
opportunity to train with people
that would make me a
better athlete, I did.
And that's kind of the approach I took.
And I don't think you can grow
or go anywhere that will allow you
to discover your full potential
unless you're uncomfortable.
And the whole time I was,
and I grew so much through
that time, so it wasn't easy,
it was definitely challenging,
but it was probably one of the
best things I've ever done.
- That's an incredible
what an incredible outcome
and what I guess is the lesson for others
in letting go in those moments
of true vulnerability really,
and being open to whatever comes next
and just ceasing the
control that, you know,
you don't have in those moments.
- Yeah, I feel that it is
something that you can't rush.
- Yeah, I feel that it is
something that you can't rush.
So you can't make assumptions
about where we should
or shouldn't be at certain
parts of our career or our life.
And things may change,
but things may change not the way
we think they're gonna change.
So never making assumptions about it.
If something doesn't go the
way you may have thought it
could or would or wanted long term,
it doesn't mean it's the end.
It can just shift in a different way.
And it's essentially a one
door closes, a new one opens,
it's just how willing are you
to walk through that new door.
And so that was definitely my
approach through everything.
And just, we really have
to sit in a discomfort
because there's so much
going on in our world.
If you think about it at the moment,
everything that's going on,
like, there is a lot of uncertainty,
there's a lot of change.
And if I go back to one
of the biggest things
when I was studying, you know,
the only constant is change.
So how do we get comfortable with-
- With change?
- With change?
Because that's gonna be constant,
not just in our world, but in our lives.
So embracing that
and being calm in the chaos is something
that I guess I just really enjoy.
And yeah, I think it's
something that it's okay
for things to be unknown.
- You ended up making your
debut in the women's PT4
at Rio in the 2016 Paralympic games.
What was that feeling like
when you finally stood
on the start line?
What did that moment represent for you?
- It was a whirlwind of emotion.
For context,
I had missed out on...
I'd made the long list
for two Paralympic
campaigns in equestrian.
So Beijing,
and then I had the world equestrian games
where I had the unfortunate situation
where my horse got really sick,
which therefore meant I wasn't gonna make
the team for London.
And even before Beijing,
I was all really close
to almost making the team.
So it was a long time coming.
And for me to stand on that start line,
not with a horse.
- Like doing a completely different sport.
- About to go into Copacabana Beach,
like it was phenomenal.
But actually, what I didn't prepare for
was how overwhelming it was gonna be
because I had waited
and wanted that moment to come for so long
that then I was actually in it.
And like, there's a lot of
noise, there's a lot of,
you know, music, there's a lot going on
and you have to go on
now perform at your best
and quieten the noise.
And I didn't prepare
as much as I, you know,
could have in that moment.
But I wasn't aware of how much
the emotion was gonna hit me
because it also was a
passion of my mom's as well.
You know, the horses was
something we shared together
and I always thought
I'd be there on a horse
and she would be there with
me and I wasn't on a horse
and she wasn't there with me.
So the whole emotion of
the grief that got me
through the training initially
was something I had to deal with.
And it really came out in
that moment of the overwhelm.
And that's the other thing,
then it comes back to our mindset.
We think about mental energy and recovery.
Like it is so much a mental game, more so
than a physical one
because you know, that
race was hard for me
because of the mental side to it
and what I was carrying emotionally.
So, you know, the body
will do what the mind
allows it to do.
And so that was another
pivotal moment for me.
But it was phenomenal
being on that start line.
And I remember a lot of
it so clearly, you know,
I hadn't been in the sport
for, I'd been in the sport
for less than two years, so-
- Was ridiculous.
- I was still very immature
in my triathlon here,
so I was just still learning as well.
But, you know, I held third,
I held bronze for most of it
and then it unravelled a bit on the run,
which was I guess my
achilles heel back then,
so of it all.
But yeah, so grateful to
be on that start line.
It was an amazing experience.
- It's a huge achieve only
two years doing that sport.
- Less than two years.
- Completely different sport.
- Yeah.
- Incredible.
- 'Cause someone told me that
would be farfetched going
from a community triathlon to Rio.
- Interesting.
Another piece of the thread
- Yes.
- That ties all of this together.
- Swimming in the local pool
and I guess the coach in that, you know,
local try club said, "So, what
sort of racing you wanna do?"
And I Said," oh, I really wanna try
and get to Rio for the Paralympics."
And he said, "That's a
bit farfetched, isn't it?
Going from try tri to Rio."
And I said, "Right, game on."
- Turning can't into can.
- Yeah,
- Everywhere.
In every industry, in every sport.
I wonder what's next.
You welcomed your first child, Henrik
in 2018 and returned to
the circuit only six months
after his birth.
Firstly, that's incredible.
Tell us about this period of your life
and what was it like to compete again.
- It was one of the most memorable times
of my racing career.
You know, like I can win medals,
but you can't win moments
that will last forever.
And I was so grateful I had those,
especially when Henrik was born.
And the thing about sport is,
and about I guess about having children,
you can't time things as
well as you might want.
We fell pregnant with Henrik
just after world championships.
So we were quite fortunate
in that time from being able
to go back and race, I could align it,
but I was adamant that my
number one role was being a mom
and Henrik as a baby
and he still is today,
but he was so calm and chill
and so I wanted to be the mom
that was up with him at night.
I didn't wanna sacrifice my breastfeeding.
And so again, pivotal people
that have impact, you know,
my coach was amazing that she allowed
for the flexibility of having
Henrik when we're at training,
the places we trained
allowed for that support.
If she actually helped me
to be at training session,
she would help look after him.
Even when I was racing,
I remember she would have
him in the baby carrier
and I think he was a bit
upset, but I was winning.
So she's kind of like coaching,
but you know, shaking the baby
and had a hit him turn.
- That's an amazing coach.
- Yeah, Danielle Stefano is probably one
of the most amazing.
- Danielle.
- People.
- Good job, you're setting the standard.
- Yeah, and so if it wasn't for her,
I definitely wouldn't have
thrived through that time.
And just having the support
of my husband and family.
Triathlon Australia were amazing
because there wasn't actually anything
that like any policies,
I guess in regards to parental leave.
- Right.
- So if I wasn't racing, I
wasn't gonna get my money,
my funding, which is
gonna make it very hard
because I needed to have time off and.
- Yeah.
- The high performance
director at the time,
he said, "Doesn't matter if
there's nothing in place,
we will make sure Kate stays on."
And so she can have what they
then call parental leave.
And now I know it's evolved
a lot more in that space,
but if it wasn't for people like my coach
and the high performance
director at the time,
I wouldn't have been able
to return the way I did.
And they actually helped
me have support with having
a nanny to come to some of the races
if I didn't have my husband there.
And you know, it wasn't
always fair on my coach,
probably have Henrik
and she definitely stood
in where she could.
So that was great.
And there's photos of me out there
on the start line breastfeeding Henrik,
and people are warming up around me
and you know, I could have
been really overwhelmed
by that, but I was so proud of being a mom
and doing my sport
and it actually made me a better athlete
and, yeah, better performer out there
because it helped me put a
lot more into perspective
around racing and, you know,
the stories we tell ourselves
and not being good enough
or being defined by outcomes
and medals and yeah.
Those moments I'll never
forget if we're travelling
around the world with Henrik
and racing regardless of, you
know, what the outcome was.
- What races did you do during this time
and was the hope to go
to the Paralympics again?
- Yeah, so my first race
back was in Australia,
it was in our Oceania series,
so I think I was in Newcastle
and then Tassie in Devonport,
one of my favourite races.
And then over into Italy,
into Switzerland for the
World's World Championships.
And then, back, that was in 2019.
And then building into the
last qualifying period,
also went to Montreal.
- Wow.
- In there with Henrik.
So there was a few in there and-
- Went everywhere.
- A Tokyo test event.
Yeah, he's been everywhere.
Can't remember any of it.
And a lot of places there.
And so the plan was under
the guidance of Danielle,
a really progressive build
to peak at the right time
and not come back and try to be a hero.
Like, let's just take it slowly.
And it was working really well.
I had the best race of my
career in February, 2020.
And that was the last qualifying period
before the last block of qualifying
for unofficially I guess making the team.
So actually meeting all the criteria
to make the team for Tokyo.
And then in that space of having
my best race in my career,
COVID happened.
Yeah.
And so what that meant was
another career-defining moment
because the games, apart from
the fact we couldn't travel
and realising that was not
gonna happen was like, whoa.
And then the actually the reality
that the games were gonna
be postponed, it's like,
wow-
- This is huge.
- Full on.
So one that was postponed,
that was gonna be I think
over another 12 months from
a timeline perspective.
And I was ready to retire, you know,
I had a little boy, I was working
and we also wanted to have
another baby, so I couldn't...
I didn't want to sacrifice
what that time would be,
you know, to have another
baby just to go to the games.
And it was a really hard decision for me.
And, you know, at the time,
I didn't want to retire,
but we wanted to have another baby
so it wasn't that straightforward.
And as the world changed,
everything else changed too
with sponsorships and stuff
because no one knew what
COVID was gonna bring.
So I actually worked with Paul Pena
as my sports psychologist at the time
and still good friends with him.
And he helped me
also lean into, you know,
this power perspective
because I always envisioned that my career
pinnacle would be, I went
to Rio, that was great,
that was kind of learning curve.
Now I'm back for Tokyo, bigger and better
and stronger mentally, physically.
And I'd always, I guess had
assumed that that was gonna be
where I'd have my best performance.
And once I realised when
people were saying to me,
"Oh, okay, you can retire.
It's all right.
You've had a great career in sport.
You wanna go get a coffee?"
And I'm like, "Don't you get it?
Like, this is my life.
This is everything I've worked towards.
How is that simple for you?"
Because I wasn't seeing what they saw.
They were seeing Kate, the
person, not Kate the performer.
They were seeing something
that I wasn't necessarily
giving myself credit for.
They didn't care if I
had 1,000 medals or none.
Right?
But I was defining what
would be the pinnacle
of my career potentially
to be at a race in Tokyo
and potentially in the podium.
Now I may have, it was likely
I was gonna be on that team
'cause I'd met the criteria,
but there was no guarantee
what would happen on the day.
We don't know what
would happen on the day.
And so through working
with Paul, it was amazing
because he helped me
start to unravel the fact
that I had had so many gold medal moments.
And the race that I always
wanted for me as a person,
the performance that I actually felt
was the best I would ever be.
I'd just had two weeks prior,
just happened to be
that it wasn't at Tokyo,
I'd got everything I was wanting
to achieve in sport there.
And so having perspective like that
and you know, especially having support
to help shift your own
perspective, to see things
that potentially you don't
see can be life changing.
And so it allowed me to go on
and transition more effectively.
- That's so good that you
had someone allow you to see
the whole, the (indistinct) parts,
not just one performance at time.
- Well, what were people saying
that I wasn't and why was that?
I couldn't connect it.
Just made me angry.
I'm like, how do I figure this out?
So often, we attach a lot of
our self-worth to what we do
rather than who we are.
So that was a really
challenging time for me,
but a great time to really lean in
and understand what was happening for me.
- Yeah, it's a really good lesson.
Let's talk about this book.
So you've just released
"The Hand You're Dealt,"
let's hold it up.
It's a powerful
and honest story about turning
adversity into opportunity.
Why did you feel that
now was the right time
to tell your story?
And how do you feel about
setting it free into the world?
- Yeah, well that's a funny one.
So I always wanted to write a book.
I always thought it
would be about my career
as an equestrian athlete and
growing up with disability.
And turns out that was only the beginning.
And just,
I love books.
I love learning, I love reading.
Growing up, I got so much
out of reading other people's stories.
- Yeah.
- And so I guess for
me, that was something
that I found was quite unique
and I felt very, very
privileged to be able
to read other people's stories.
And for people to talk
about things through,
through words in a book when
you haven't even met them,
but you feel so connected
and you can learn through it.
- Totally.
- And so for me, that
was one of the reasons
to write this book.
The other thing being, I simply
just wanted to write a book.
So to have the opportunity to-
- Nothing wrong with that.
- To do it was great
and to share my story.
And the other thing too
is for my kids, for me,
they'll have more of the story
behind the mom when they're older.
So that's something that I
wish I had more of from my mom.
And so I've written it for them as well
and it for anyone else
that will learn from it.
I've already had people saying, wow,
there were things about your
life that I didn't know.
And you know, it's already
making me think differently.
So if it can-
- People that know you.
- Yeah.
And if it can influence one person,
especially someone younger
or older in a way that
positively impacts their life,
then why wouldn't I write a book?
So yeah, I'm grateful that
it's there for people to read.
- And who should be reading this book?
- Everybody.
I think anyone that feels
like life limits them
because that is a perspective that we have
and life isn't easy,
it's challenging, but it
doesn't mean we can't grow
and become what we want
or do things we may want to do.
We just might do them a bit differently.
So that's why the title
is "The Hand You're Dealt"
because you can't always choose the card
life does deal you,
but you can choose how you play the hand.
And so that's the whole
philosophy behind it
and how I've lived my life.
So I think it's relevant for everyone.
- Well said.
Let's end with some quick fire questions.
- Sure.
- What's one thing that
you wish more people
understood about disability?
- Disability is, I like
to just simply put it,
it's not a thing when people just realise
everyone's different and the world needs
to facilitate people's differences.
Not necessarily through
what we coin disability
through likes, preferences,
what, you know,
different cars we like, whatever it is.
Right?
Everyone's different.
If we can just realise that,
that there's no not one size
fits all in anything anymore.
That would be great.
And I think if there is a
lesson in it, excuse me,
is never be shy to ask questions
because the more you're worried about
how you're gonna say it,
that can impact someone
in a way that you don't intend.
So just be curious, say,
"Oh, you know, I noticed
you know, you've got a hand difference
or born without a hand, what happened? "
I appreciate people doing
that rather than feeling like,
oh, I can't say anything or do anything.
- To pretend doesn't exist.
- Yeah, let's pretend or whatever.
And so don't be awkward about it
because more often than not-
- Don't be awkward about it.
- More often than not, the
person with disability won't be
so you don't need to
feel awkward about it.
But also if they don't wanna
talk about it, they'll tell you
and they actually won't mind,
you know, you asking, so.
- Yeah. Good advice.
What's your favourite sport to watch?
- Ooh, that's interesting
to watch versus play.
Oh, I'd have to say AFL.
Done a bit of work with
some players and you know,
I do like watching them when you know them
behind the scenes.
Can't play it at all.
But if it's a sport to play,
it would definitely be
triathlon and dressage.
- Amazing.
And what's next for you?
- I do have book two.
- Oh.
- Just in the processes of finalising that
with a great publisher
and that is about all
the work that I do today.
So sort of what comes after this one
and the so what of that now
in performance and corporate
and high performance sport.
So that will be something
that'll keep me ticking away.
- Is it gonna be mostly advice
or is it gonna be a mix of
advice and more of your story?
- Both, yeah, a bit of both.
- Yeah.
- So that is looking to
probably come out early '27.
And outside of that,
doing more of what I love.
I feel so grateful
and privileged to be
able to work with a lot
of senior leaders about
helping them unlock
these elements of performance.
And what does it mean
bringing different perspective
and very humbled to walk
into offices of people
that have become
professional in what they do.
So I'm always inspired by
the people that, you know,
have got to quite high roles
in the past, they've taken,
so I love being in the room where I get
to learn from them just as
much as they do from me.
So hopefully, that will
just keep continuing.
- Fantastic.
Busy, busy times ahead.
- Yeah. But loving it.
- Kate Naess, it was great
to talk to you today.
You're an amazing example
of testing assumptions
and turning cants into
cans, so thank you so much
for joining us on "Stories of Wonder."
- Pleasure.
Thank you for having me.