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Welcome to Business Leader Breakthroughs where we help unlock the potential in you, your teams and your business. Hosted by Ryan Castle, along with Dr Mike Ashby, we share insights, experiences and stories on achieving breakthrough successes in business and life. In addition to a podcast, The Breakthrough also specialises in delivering management training that actually sticks, is cost effective, and easy to implement at scale to sustain change from the inside out.
Welcome to Business Leader Breakthroughs where we help unlock the potential in you, your teams, and your business. I'm your host Ryan Hassall along with Doctor Mike Ashby. We'll share insights, experiences, and stories on achieving breakthrough success in business and life. To learn more, click the link in the episode show notes or go to the breakthrough.com. Now let the breakthroughs begin.
Ryan Castle:Hey, Mike. Welcome into today's podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Ryan. Great to be here.
Ryan Castle:Oh, it is. It is. Today, let's talk about clear communication. I think it's one of the biggest challenges of management. Mhmm.
Ryan Castle:It's one of those elements that we say we should be good at. We often think we're good at it. Mhmm. We think we're being clear. But when I've worked with so many different leaders and their teams, often the biggest question that comes back, the area of concern is the team has lack of clarity.
Ryan Castle:Now lack of clarity can be a whole bunch of things. It can be not clearly articulating the strategic plan, it can be not clearly articulating the goal, the plan for the week, can be all those things. But if we don't understand what clear communication looks like, then none of those things happen well.
Speaker 2:And there can be a lack of clarity going the other way, which is being clear about what people are saying to them. So the clear communication, the way we think about it is that, you know, when you when you boil it down, it's about sending and receiving information accurately. And if you think of that from a kind of, you know, a technology point of view, when you've got static on the line, when your signal isn't strong enough, you can't get your information out or you can't hear what's being said. So that kind of clarity, the clearer we can make that sending and receiving of relevant information, then we're gonna improve the quality of our communication. And and the information's not just the data, And we observe this, of course, with, you know, our the time we now spend in digital platforms.
Speaker 2:What's there and what's not there? Because sometimes it can be the information that's being exchanged is not just the words, it's the thoughts that you can hear people going through. It's the emotions that that people are are going through as well. That's all part of relevant information.
Ryan Castle:And the various amounts of research, but they say that around 60 or 70% seems to be the common as nonverbal in terms of your communication. Yep. And with so many organizations now having to lead remotely or in hybrid work environments where they are only physically with people sometimes, we're using lots of online platforms to communicate Yeah. And that body language piece gets harder and harder over Yeah. Over those platforms.
Ryan Castle:So the requirement and importance of clear communication, even more important.
Speaker 2:And you know, you think about that digital, the digital platform, the Zoom or the or the Teams, whatever, and you think how hard it is to read people when they're on screen. And when they turn their camera off, it's completely impossible. They are completely blank. Literally Yeah. In every sense, aren't they?
Speaker 2:So, you know, that's a great example of the the range of information that surrounds the words.
Ryan Castle:What's what's your view on people turning the cameras off?
Speaker 2:Oh, wrong. Yeah. It's just wrong. I mean, you know that they're just doing emails. Right?
Speaker 2:Well Well, they're not there. They're just
Ryan Castle:Yeah. For me, the equivalent is coming to a meeting and then sitting under the table. Yeah. So we can't see. Like, I I just don't understand.
Ryan Castle:And certainly any meeting I was leading Yeah. That's part of turning up to the meeting and being present as having your having your camera on.
Speaker 2:And not sitting under the table.
Ryan Castle:So we've talked about the communication that's two way. So sometimes it's that the person talking at the time is not being clear with what they're what they're saying. Mhmm. And then as a listener, you can be not listening to what's being transmitted as well.
Speaker 2:And it's going through filters on both sides, you know, how we speak is being filtered and what we hear is being filtered.
Ryan Castle:When we're actually present in the moment as well. If we're in, you know, sitting here in part of a conversation, but we're really thinking about that next thing on our to do list or just won the football or something just doesn't doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I've I've given up arguing the proposition that grunting while reading the newspaper is actually a legitimate form of communication. I gave that up when I gave up newspapers, actually.
Speaker 2:Right. Which is quite a long ago.
Ryan Castle:Long time ago. Okay. So what should we pay attention to?
Speaker 2:Well, definitely, you know, as the the speaker, the the sender, what you're saying, and it's not just the words. It's the tone, it's what's going on for you, you know, what's your state of mind, what's your state of being? And then pay attention to what's being said, and of course, from a listener's point of view, it's not just the words that are being said, it's the way things are being said and what's not being said. So in the work context, speaking clearly means having the actually, these these things are true just. They are true of human communications, and it's just in particular taking them to work.
Speaker 2:And it's having the courage to speak your truth, which is really your judgment about what's best for the business. That's what you should be most focused on. We have a saying where there's insight, there's responsibility. In fact, it's on our wall. This is my job.
Speaker 2:It's hard to speak the truth, and it can also be very hard to hear it. So as managers, we need to give people the courage to be clear with us, to speak their truth about their thoughts and feelings, to, you know, to invite people to contribute.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. Good example of the where there's insight, there's responsibility. We've had a new team member join us just in the last last week. She picked up one of our workbooks and within looking at it for thirty seconds, turned to one of the other team members and said, if I spot a mistake, what who should I talk to? What should I do about that?
Ryan Castle:Mhmm. A brilliant example of where there's insiders, there's responsibility. Yeah. As a new team member, you might be very conscious of going, oh, I don't wanna upset the apple cart. I don't wanna come here and identify that there's something not where I think it should be.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. I thought that was a great example of how how someone living our values from day one. Totally. And it was good for us. We're like, that's a good hire.
Speaker 2:Should be here this morning.
Ryan Castle:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:Pointed out two inconsistent kind of messages which, you know, on page seven it says this, and on page 27 you've changed your mind. Oh, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and look, you know, from that point of view, what what what are we there's no option but to say, yes, that's that's the truth, and thank you for that. We we'll fix it.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. And as the receiver of that information, it's not a criticism. No. It's just that that person in that moment is doing the right thing for the business. Yeah.
Ryan Castle:But he's going, I've identified something that's not at the quality standard we should be aiming for. Yep. So, yep, here it is. Here's the feedback. And it's not a personal attack.
Speaker 2:No. That's right. And and no filters and no kind of smart arsory of kind of, look what I found out that I clever. It was just, look, here you say this,
Ryan Castle:and then on page 27 you say that.
Speaker 2:It's just they're not they're not consistent. True.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. Yeah. Another valuable aspect and we talk so often about the importance of awareness and management and leadership. Yeah. And I think from a communication both from a transmitter and a receiver, having an awareness of how that other person works.
Ryan Castle:What's their style Mhmm. You know, in our language? Are they a pioneer? Are they a guardian? If you're a pioneer where you tend to think quite big picture, you tend to be quite future oriented in your thinking.
Ryan Castle:Yep. And if you know you're talking to a guardian, then you have to be aware of that and think when I'm communicating, they're gonna be wanting some detail. They're gonna be wanting some clear timelines. They're gonna be wanting constraints around what we doing. That's how they like to operate, Guardians.
Ryan Castle:Yep. So that awareness of what is the other person likely to like to receive in that communication. Mhmm. So how do we go about inviting contribution in our teams?
Speaker 2:I think you have to establish in your own head an open listening mindset, and that's about affirming that I respect the other person's beliefs, their opinions, their values, their feelings, their shorts and shorts.
Ryan Castle:Nice pair of shorts. Not what I'd wear, but I respect them.
Speaker 2:But I respect them. And your right to wear them, by the way. And your desires to develop, perhaps, better shorts. So, you know, but you gotta respect people for where they're at and who they are. You gotta stay open to their point of view and and in particular refrain from being right.
Speaker 2:We all, particularly as managers, we're accustomed to kind of directing and knowing what to do and and being right. Oh, wait. As human beings, we're quite accustomed to being right. Refraining from being right and just holding ourselves open is the way we invite people to contribute. Because if we jump from our being right position before somebody's kind of explored their point of view, they're not gonna contribute.
Speaker 2:They're just gonna try and work out like at school, you know, what does the teacher want to hear here? Or hear here? Yeah. What does the teacher want me to say? And I'll say it.
Speaker 2:That's not a contribution. If we're not open to the other person's point of view, if we don't actually respect their views or them them as people, open listening, clear speaking is just not gonna be possible.
Ryan Castle:And an example that I've seen or heard actually in another podcast which I quite liked is the person who wants to be the year.
Speaker 2:The year year?
Ryan Castle:The year year. Yeah. So when someone someone else is trying to communicate and they won't let that person finish, they want to butt in with their own contribution, perceived contribution. Yeah. Yeah yeah.
Ryan Castle:And my thing is this. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. Good. Language. I I loved what somebody said from the active versus reactive module. They talked about, I'm gonna listen with my eyes.
Speaker 2:And I think that's a lovely phrase, listening with my eyes. And keeping my body language open also, remaining open, keeping eye contact, smiling, know, not kind of, not got my arms folded, not sitting there on my phone or my computer or whatever. Right? So then listening for energy, and this is something that I think we've probably developed over time in our coaching business over time was where was the energy? Was it up or down?
Speaker 2:And and following those kind of flat spots and going, what's going on there? And and looking for the high spots and going, that's what this person's really about. Are they enthusiastic or are they they anxious or are they hesitant? What's triggering that? Because then we can ask some open questions.
Speaker 2:We can and and you're great at this. You you ask open questions or at least respond with some signal that says, that's interesting. You know, can you tell me a bit more about that? Tell me what's going on here. And then I think the other part of it is is summarizing what you've heard the other person say.
Speaker 2:You know, what I hear you saying is, have I got that right? So what are some of the things that you do as a podcast host extraordinaire? I think picking up on that stream
Ryan Castle:of thought, what's really going on here. Mhmm. And what's really going on here could be about the whole person. You know, it could be actually what we're talking about here is not the real issue. Yeah.
Ryan Castle:You might you might have some challenge. You might be overrun with with responsibility and things you're trying to get done. So it's actually not about this one thing. We're actually talking about capacity management. Yes.
Ryan Castle:So it might be about, you know, what's really going on here. It might be about identifying the full aspect of the person, what's going on for you before you even walked in the door today. Mhmm. Are you in a good energy space? Is there something going on in your personal life that we actually maybe we should talk about that before we try and address the address the work thing?
Ryan Castle:Mhmm. So there's that the whole person Mhmm. Piece.
Speaker 2:Like it.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. I think that trying to provide a summary, what I've heard you say is that playback is so powerful. Yeah. Because so often we've had, you said something, I thought I listened, we walk away from the table with completely different understanding is actually what was trying to be communicated.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Ryan Castle:So I think that playback gives us the opportunity to to do that. And one of my favorite questions when someone is particularly given context or trying to give insight to what they're conveying is just two simple words, is, and what else? Oh. I think that's three actually. That is And what else, but
Speaker 2:Well, that that's the else. And
Ryan Castle:what else?
Speaker 2:And what else?
Ryan Castle:And so often gold comes out of that. What else? Because there's all these other things that they haven't yet communicated, which are really useful. So then, and what else?
Speaker 2:It's sort of like I love the idea of creating space. Like, I like the idea of creating space in my in my work, and that means getting rid of low value stuff so that I've got space for a higher value contribution. I like the idea of creating space for creativity, physical and mental and emotional space. But what you're talking about there is space for people to go a little further. And it's like, you know, I don't know if you've ever worked with somebody who was, and I'd whether it was deliberate or not, I remember this woman, she would not say anything when I'd when I was to you know, after I'd finished.
Speaker 2:And the silence would get so uncomfortable for an expressive like me. I just couldn't stand it and would have to fill it in. That was actually a bit manipulative in some ways. Began to I I began to kind of manage myself a lot better and just shut the hell up. But I think that and what else is that kind of silence and space in which you go, oh, actually, this is thing that I've I've felt or I've got knocking around in the back of my head, and I haven't wanted to it's too hard to talk about.
Speaker 2:And then and what else? There's an invitation to do just that. So I think that's a great question. That's a great question. Great space.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. And what about some of the things we shouldn't do?
Speaker 2:Well, think as part of that space, you know, I think it's a good it's a good kind of theme, really, creating space in the active listening. One that I will take into the next version. So this has been a very useful conversation because it's a nice theme around listening is really about creating space for people to contribute. And of course, kill that. They just kill it dead.
Speaker 2:You know, you wanna see where the conversation's going to take us. You don't wanna jump in on things. I think you wanna observe how your own mind, when you're listening and giving that space, when how it's making judgments as they talk. And then making space, see how I'm working the theme in already? Oh, this is good.
Speaker 2:You decide to ignore the judgments. You decide to leave the space open. I think there are great things to do as a way of of encouraging people to make a bigger contribution.
Ryan Castle:And I think as a leader, if you're finding the conversations with your team members frustrating or you're feeling like you want to jump in and give the give the answer, a great leader doesn't keep doing everything. A great leader coaches their team to go, if if we would have this type of conversation again Mhmm. What I might like you to give consideration to in advance are these things. What's our impact to customer? What's our impact to supplier?
Ryan Castle:So as a leader, we might be able to go, oh, that idea you've raised, I can go and think about all the other things going, Actually, I'd like you to think about those things before you come to the table next Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Castle:So I think that's Yeah. It's again, it's the, you know, teaching the teaching the person to fish rather than doing the fishing on time. Right? Yeah. And I think that's what what's what good leaders and good managers do.
Ryan Castle:They help grow their people's capabilities. So the next time you have a similar conversation, we've added some more skill, added some more development, so that's an even more quality conversation Yeah. In the next time around.
Speaker 2:And and again, in a way, you've created a space for people to explore their conversation outside of the face to face. You've actually given them the opportunity to make a bigger contribution to go away and think about. Now, this is very important, you know, when you talk before about the different styles. One of the things in in listening and making sure that people have the space to make the biggest contribution is especially for the guardians and the integrators, is give them that advanced warning. Give them a kind of heads up about what you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2:Pioneers and expressives, they don't need space. They just kinda rock up and rely on, what is our chairman call it, casual brands. Mhmm. And in fact, they don't even know what they're gonna say, what they think until they say it. Right?
Speaker 2:So their space is just let me talk.
Ryan Castle:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But creating space for a guardian, a detailed person, an introvert is here, here's what I'd like you to think about ahead of the meeting. So when we have our discussion, you've already got, you know, your kind of talking points, and we can we can discuss and and explore those together. Yeah. That's great. That's great way of thinking about it.
Ryan Castle:And it's been a learning for me on my own leadership journey Mhmm. Is I'm a driver. Yeah. So I'm looking for I'm looking for decisions. I'm looking for outcomes.
Ryan Castle:I'm looking for results. Let's say it's a meeting, right here, right now, I'm like, I wanna leave this with a clear plan of what's happening next. Yep. It's been part of my learning that as something's come up in a meeting, we may not have been able to prepare for it in advance because it's something that's come up in the discussion, is to be willing to let our integrators and guardians go away and process it and come So I'm observing what's going on for them, particularly in their body language and how they're going. And then going, okay, I don't think we're gonna resolve this one today.
Ryan Castle:Yeah. Which on the inside, I'm dying. Mean, what do you mean we're not gonna resolve this today?
Speaker 2:Look, if you're just gonna have another hour to talk it through, I'd Yeah. Work it
Ryan Castle:You sort it out. But being saying to the team, I don't think we're gonna resolve this in this session. You guys take it away. We'll come back in another meeting tomorrow or or the next next week, whenever the time frame is, and and pick it up there. And again, it's about giving people the space Yeah.
Ryan Castle:To make their contribution.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Actually, there was a really interesting comment from one of the the guys on in my collab, and he talked about, you know, sometimes communication is not about what's said in the conversation or in the meeting. Sometimes communication is about exactly what we're talking about, that we go away and think about stuff. And he was talking about in the context of a of a conversation he did with his with his manager, which was quite what do we call it? Oh, robust.
Speaker 2:A high quality one that that Ross had had kinda engineered. And James went away and after that conversation, or the second one, which they had about the first conversation and what happened. And he went away and thought about it. And and and his reflection was, actually, the reflection on the conversation was as important a part of the communication as the conversation itself. And, you know, that kind of creating space for people to reflect, make a bigger contribution.
Speaker 2:It's a it's a nice way of thinking about, well, active communication.
Ryan Castle:It is.