Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Improving health outcomes is the goal of every practitioner. Finding the solutions for challenging chronic conditions often requires precious time, extensive research, and sometimes even trial and error. Join Rob Lutz, the host and founder of Today’s Practitioner, as he interviews recognized experts and shares their knowledge and proven treatment protocols. Peer to peer guidance can be the most direct path to finding effective solutions for the conditions impacting your patients.
Rob Lutz 00:02
Hello and welcome to the OneMedicine Podcast from Today's Practitioner. In each episode, we share the expertise of a respected thought leader, some you'll know, and others you'll probably meet for the first time. We cover topics important to you, always with a focus on improving the health outcomes of the patients you treat, while expanding your understanding of the many healing modalities being used today.
Rob Lutz 00:24
Hi, I'm Rob Lutz. I'm your host of the One Medicine Podcast, and today we have something new. We have a panel of experts. We'll be digging into a topic that my subscribers have really loved over the years. We've got Wendie Colter with us here today. She's been on the podcast before. I'll introduce her and everyone else in a moment. But today we're going to talk about the ethical and legal issues in the practice of medical intuition. So not going deep into what is medical intuition, although we will talk a little bit about that, it's more about the ethics and how to practice this, how to work with a medical intuitive within a practice. The panel who we have today, of course, I mentioned Wendie. She is the CEO of The Practical Path, which is presenting accredited certification programs and medical intuition for health and wellness professionals. She's also the president of the National Organization for Medical Intuition, NOMI. It's a non-profit membership organization dedicated to integrating medical intuition into mainstream healthcare. She's the author of multiple award-winning books, including Essentials of Medical Intuition: A Visionary Path to Wellness. She also has generously helped fill out our Medical Intuition Resource Center on Today's Practitioner, which I'll include a link to as well. She's a speaker on this topic in a number of different places, and so really, truly an expert and a trailblazer on this category that I think we all here today find very exciting.
Rob Lutz 01:45
Our other guest is Midge Murphy. She's an attorney and a PhD. She is the first attorney to receive a PhD in energy medicine from Holos University, and is also an energy healing practitioner herself. For over 15 years, she has provided consulting services to licensed and unlicensed practitioners and training organizations in ethics, legal issues, and risk management strategies and the practice of and training in energy healing and biofield practices. She's also an author of a groundbreaking book: Practice Energy Healing in Integrity: The Joy of Offering Your Gifts Legally & Ethically and the exam based on the book are considered gold standard in the field. Midge will be really helping us understand the ethics around this, and I think that's a topic that a lot of our subscribers have had interest in.
Rob Lutz 02:33
And then, of course, we have Mary Louder, who's a DO and she's double board certified in family medicine and integrative holistic medicine. Has practiced for over 30 years. She's the CEO and the medical director of Cairn Medical in Holland, Michigan. She's a speaker and an author of Education and Holistic Functional Medicine and Energetic Psychology. And she is a medical intuitive herself. She uses this and visits with her patients by deep listening and holding space for deeper reasons, truth, and guidance to come through, with, and for the patient. This brings clarity of diagnosis, treatment options, and disposition choices.
Rob Lutz 03:09
So anyway, I want to welcome you guys all to the podcast. This is going to be exciting again, first time to have a panel. But I'm really looking forward to the interaction of the three of you, because you have all of these different perspectives on this one topic. And again, we are going to be talking about how practitioners can use medical intuition with a medical intuitive, or if they are themselves, but really thinking about what are some of the ethical and legal challenges that you need to be aware of, and how to navigate that. And so, Midge, I think, will be very helpful in that area. So do you want to just say a couple quick words? I thought we could talk a little about what is medical intuition, to give a definition and scope of practice, and again, to go deeper on this we have a whole podcast on it, as well as the resource center. But yeah, Wendie, if you wouldn't mind just sharing a few thoughts with us? That'd be great.
Wendie Colter 03:56
Absolutely, thank you. Well, medical intuition is somewhat misunderstood out there. Medical intuition is actually a skill set rather than a modality. In other words, it's not an intervention, it's not a healing tool. It's a skill set to assess and evaluate a client or patient's overall energetic health, not just physical--so physically, yes--but also emotionally, mentally, spiritually and in an integrative way. So it's a heightened intuitive practice, learning how to trust your intuition and learning how to work with it in a very directed way. That's the short form.
Rob Lutz 04:37
Great, thank you. Yeah, another question--and I did ask the panelists to come up with some questions, so we can guide this conversation--and I encourage the three of you to chime in when there's an answer, if there are things that you want to clarify, or from your perspective if there's something else you'd wanted to add. But this next question is for Midge, and how does medical intuition fit into the healthcare field?
Midge Murphy 04:58
Great, thank you. Yes, medical intuition actually fits into the broad category of complementary and alternative medicine, and it's a consensus term. And I really like the definition that Michael Cohen gave in his book Future Medicine. It's a consensus term that means everything that's outside of traditional Western medicine. So within that very broad field, there are certain modalities or practices that are licensed. One of those would be chiropractors, and they're licensed in all 50 states. Massage therapists are licensed in some states, that's also part of the complementary or CAM field and obviously some naturopathic physicians are in that group as well. Acupuncture, most states now do require acupuncturists and Chinese medicine practitioners to be licensed. So there's that category. There's a second category that are licensed in some states and not in others, which we just mentioned briefly, was massage therapists. And then there's a whole other category that fits within a broad spectrum of biofield practices, energy healing methods, and that's where medical intuition sits, right there in that field, which is completely unregulated. The only exception to the energy healing modalities are basically unregulated as well. They're not required to be licensed in order to practice. However, there are some states that require you if you do any kind of touch, quantum touch, therapeutic touch--I'm a therapeutic touch practitioner myself--that you have to be a licensed massage therapist to practice in that state. That's a whole other topic, which I think is ridiculous, that they require that. But in any event, that's where medical intuition fits within the current legal system and regulatory system that governs helping professionals. And so we have to remember that with respect to medical intuition, there's a heightened sense of, are you offering some kind of medical services? So that's one of the things that we have to address when we talk about medical intuition. But from just a historical perspective, right now medical intuition is not a regulated profession, and it falls under the umbrella of CAM. And there's also this new term that's being used, called "integrative healthcare," and they're getting away from "complementary" and "alternative" and just calling it "integrative." But I don't really agree with that designation, because medical intuition does not necessarily have to be integrated into a particular healthcare practice. You can be a medical intuitive stand-alone practice which is not being integrated anywhere. It's maybe an alternative, and that's fine. So the semantics is important as we move through and understand but basically, medical intuition is unregulated, and it falls under the broad spectrum of complementary and alternative medicine.
Rob Lutz 07:36
Wendie, if you could maybe just--because we talked, I think, a little bit about this--what is medical intuition? And I think with what Midge just said, maybe we can clarify about--we don't want people to think it's something that it's not. Can you talk a little bit about that for just a minute?
Wendie Colter 07:51
Definitely, definitely. So one of the things that is important for medical intuitives to understand in the risk category is not practicing medicine without a license. That's the biggest one. And the states take this extremely seriously, as they should. So medical intuitives need to understand what their scope of practice actually is. And that's one of the things that the National Organization for Medical Intuition started off with, is a code of ethics, an understanding of what this field is, what it isn't, and where our lines are as medical intuitives. So I hope that helps clarify it a bit. Put it this way, even if you are a licensed healthcare practitioner who diagnoses, in the medical intuitive arena, that is off the table because for a number of reasons that Midge, I'm sure, and Mary will get into later. But from just being a medical intuitive working with a client or patient I do not diagnose. I can't do that. I have to frame everything as something that the client would take to their healthcare provider or their providers, and I can make suggestions, and I can make recommendations based on their energy field and what I see and perceive, but they have to work with a licensed healthcare provider for any kind of healthcare recommendation at all. And that, to be honest, that's not unusual in allied healthcare, is it? It's the thing for allied healthcare, isn't it? So we really follow these same rules. But when you come when it comes to how medical intuitives have worked over the centuries and over the decades, it's very fuzzy, because there's really not been the understanding of how to do that and what that means and the risks involved with it.
Rob Lutz 09:35
Dr. Louder, you mentioned that you are an intuitive and use this in your own practice.
Mary Louder 09:40
Yes.
Rob Lutz 09:41
So how would that work then, Wendie? So she can diagnose, but does she have to be careful not to use the medical intuitive part of her...
Wendie Colter 09:50
This is really a good question. It's like the $64,000 question, right? This is the big question. You cannot stop a medical professional from using their intuition. Why would you, right? There are so many, there's a lot of research around how medical doctors and nurses use their intuition. It's all fascinating and amazing stuff. So I think the issue here is about bringing this into the light as a professional practice and what the differences are there, and to understand where the lines are there. Does that make sense? I think Midge would agree, and Mary probably would as well. You have to understand that. And maybe Mary can speak to this.
Rob Lutz 10:29
Yeah, I'd love to hear Mary's perspective on this.
Mary Louder 10:31
Sure. Well, since we're all intuitives, you probably know what I'm thinking, right? No, I thought I'd put that one out there. That was a softball.
Wendie Colter 10:39
It could be overwhelming.
Mary Louder 10:42
I knew you were going to say that. Well, it's interesting, because I found exactly what Wendie said. I couldn't dissect that part out of who I was, and in fact, that's why patients sought out who I am as a physician to this day, 31 years later, in practice. But I didn't know that that was why, for a number of years. People just would say, patients would say, well, go see Dr. Louder. She'll figure it out. She always figures it out. And I would come up with, sometimes, clarity within a very simple diagnosis that was chronic or something that was esoteric. And I'm like, I'm sure I must have read that somewhere. What we're taught is you can only entertain that which you know. You can only entertain the diagnosis of that which you know. So the broader your knowledge base, the deeper your knowledge base, I would say, the greater is your intuition. And that has been my experience. Now, then you go and back it up by exams, formal history taking, labs, imaging, appropriate consultations and follow up treatment, disposition, that type of thing. But that was my experience. And the first medical intuitive that I connected with was a massage therapist. He diagnosed one--no, he does not; let me say it differently. He suggested this guy might have a brain tumor. And I'm like, Oh, interesting. He said, Are you open to examining the patient and working him up? I'm like, of course. And indeed, the gentleman did have a brain tumor. And that was just fascinating to me. And that was like 27 years ago, and so, and he said, Yeah, I'm not diagnosing. I just have this hunch about this guy the way he's talking to me while I'm working on him. And he was a full body worker, full body massage worker. And I just thought that was fascinating. And so that just piqued my curiosity of even the existence within the medical field of how that could work. And I think I always just kept that in my back pocket, so to speak. And then patients sought me out because they needed clarity of their diagnosis, of their chronic condition and what to do. And I was able just to listen and categorize and put in place, and then we get to things deeper underneath that might be root causes or contributors to and you wouldn't want me not to think that way. And my success rate is quite high. And I'm like, I'm happy with that. My patients are happy, you know? And there's clarity and direction. And even this morning, I saw patients, and one patient reported she's been everywhere, and until she found and sat and talked with me, she didn't have a clear understanding of what was going on. And then I backed it up completely with an objective lab test. And there it was.
Rob Lutz 13:37
So you're using your intuition to give you some guidance, let's say, and then you're using your more mainstream or typical diagnosing tools, diagnostic tools, testing and things like that, to support or figure out maybe something different. Is that kind of...
Mary Louder 13:53
Yeah, or clarifying. Because when you treat a patient, you always take history, physical exam, the lab tests or imaging will tell you yes or no based upon your history and physical exam. It was Sir Willie Mosler who said, if you listen to the patient, they'll tell you what's wrong with them. So I I have that hanging up here over my desk today, that statement, and then if I'm in doubt, I go back and re-ask the questions. I go back and re-examine the patient, what didn't I see? What didn't I hear? What did I miss? I always just put that in good clinical skills. But I found actually, that what I was listening to was something deeper.
Rob Lutz 14:34
Now, Midge, when you hear this description, both of the massage therapist and the input that he shared, as well as what Mary does in her own practice now, does anything jump out at you as this is how you should handle it? Let's say the massage therapist, the feedback that Mary got from the massage therapist, were there any ethical or legal dangers, let's say, with that type of an interaction?
Midge Murphy 14:57
Well, I don't really have enough information to answer the question with the massage therapist. I mean, I don't know what really happened and how he communicated to the client to go see Mary or whatever. So I'm not going to address that. I think that as a physician, if you're really using your intuition, then I think you should name it. I think you should really say you're doing medical intuition as an adjunct skill set to work with the clients or the patients, whatever their physical issues are, or psychological issues if you're a psychotherapist. So in that case, I think it's important to have informed consent from the patient that you are doing some kind of intuitive scanning, and that is where things can get muddled, because if you don't have informed consent for this interaction, ethically you are entering into their energetic field if you're doing intuitive work, or you're doing assessments, or you're looking at an issue, or something like that from a deeper perspective. So that is without permission, without informed consent, that's an ethical violation.
Mary Louder 15:57
That's interesting, because as osteopaths, were taught to listen to the patient.
Midge Murphy 16:04
I'm not talking about listening. I'm talking about using intuitive skills to work with the patient in order to get a diagnosis. And there's a distinction there. It's not just listening. If you are going into someone's energy field to get information as a physician, then you are practicing medical intuition per se, and that if you're doing that, you need informed consent from patients, a separate document. They might come to you for your standard informed consent, for your physical, your DO services. But if you're going to specifically use medical intuition as a professional physician with a patient, you need informed consent, period.
Mary Louder 16:46
Gotcha.
Midge Murphy 16:47
And that's important. So what happens is that one of the issues that can really come up for a licensed professional is if you are doing medical intuition with your patients, that is not considered part of the standards of care, and so you run the risk of being subject to professional discipline for using medical intuition because it's not recognized as the standards of care. And that's pretty much under all 50 state practice acts for either medical physicians or DOs, and also other licensed healthcare professionals. So that's one of the big risks is to make sure that you don't get yourself in trouble with your board and lose your license. There have been physicians who have used energy healing, and specifically, Wendie and I are aware of one who was using a medical intuitive in her practice, and her board came after her and shut her down, and she lost her license because it was not part of the standards of care. And there were dual relationships going on in that case. So I think it's very it's good to be mindful and know what the risks are, and set in place the risk management tools you can use so that you're as safe as possible if you want to do this. The other thing I would say, I think this is really important, if you're a licensed person and you really want to do medical intuition in your practice, you think it really enhances your ability to be helpful and to help in the healing process, you really need to be trained in medical intuition and certified, in my opinion, and that really means Wendie's The Practical Path first medical intuition certification program, because if a licensing board starts to question what you are doing as a licensed healthcare professional, they're going to want to know what is your training in medical intuition? And if you can come up with a certificate of completion or certification like what Wendie offers, which is indicates it's a legitimate program that teaches properly and is professional in its application of how do you do medical intuition, then your board is going to be more favorably disposed to you. If you say, Well, I came up with it on my own, or I went to a weekend workshop and now I'm doing a practice, that does not look good in front of a licensing board. So there's a lot of things to consider.
Rob Lutz 17:02
So, Wendie, I think you had a comment.
Wendie Colter 18:59
I'll add on to this, just to let everybody know, this is very new. And what Midge is talking about is the way to make this legitimized for both the medical professionals such as Mary, who have been doing this naturally for years, and for the medical intuitives that want to integrate into healthcare. And by the way, Mary's not alone. I've interviewed so many nurses and acupuncturists and other licensed folks that have a board that they are accountable to. And the question is always, how do I do this openly, so that I don't get in trouble with my board? And that's what we're all grappling with right now. How do we do this? There's not even an obvious consent form that everyone can use or adapt. And Midge does this in her practice. She creates them for professionals. And you've done a number of these for MDs and DOs and whatnot in your career. And so everybody who's a licensed professional has this question. I have it actually--I'm not a licensed professional, so in a way, I have it easier. I don't have a board at this moment that I'm accountable to. However, I am certified. I've created a certification program, as Midge said, and I have years of practice that also speaks to it. I also want to say that there are medical doctors out there, and I know of at least one who does have an informed consent for her patients. Not all of them want "unorthodox" practices used with them, but she has them sign it so they understand that she's an integrative medicine doctor who also has these other skills, and they can opt in, and that protects her, and her board does check in on her, she told me, and she passes every time, because she keeps meticulous notes. She has an informed consent. She's been doing this for a long time. She works with a medical intuitive. She works with an energy healer in her practice as well. And so there are ways forward here that make sense to the already existing, established practices in healthcare. And as Mary knows, the integrative medicine world is grappling with this as well. How do we do this that is acceptable.
Mary Louder 21:17
And to be clear, I do have training. Do have a certification. So that's one thing, in terms of informed consent, how it unfolds, I think truly has been the deep listening. So I'm not sure I would even call it medical intuition, but my intuition coming into the doctor/patient relationship. Maybe with semantics, yeah, and I don't think you would want me to not be who I am. I would think that's fair. But I understand, Midge, exactly what you're saying and the rigors of this, because I've encountered people who are weren't as rigorous, and then it backfires and so I'm very, very concerned. And then the other part is, when I do use my intuition, I pause and say, Hey, we're going into a moment here where I'm using medical intuition. Before we do this, we need to get a verbal consent, and then that is documented during that part of the encounter. Now it's not, I don't have it written because I didn't start the visit that way, but when I do use that, and I know I'm going into that world because I talk about energy field, or I'll talk about what I'm seeing in energy, I said we have to stop here and define what this is, that this is not--I said we're going into woowoo land, but before we go there, this is how I want to approach it, and get full informed consent verbally. Now in our world, and I know you are risk management, to such a great extent, Midge, which would absolutely we need. But as a physician, for 31 years, I've had zero board complaints, never been sued in my life. And so I would say that that record has and can speak strongly in terms of how I communicate what I do or my approach, in terms of that informed consent, and looking at that definition within an encounter with a patient overall, maybe to the quality of communication and the appropriateness within an encounter, so your feedback on that would be super important, I think.
Midge Murphy 23:24
I think that it only takes one, one patient to not clearly understand, and I applaud you for the work that you've done over these years, and the fact that you haven't had any issues with any of your patients or your board. I mean, that's great. What I'm concerned about with verbal consent in that particular situation is that you have a vulnerable person in front of you. And the ethical issues are how to manage the power differential in that relationship. And because the patients are vulnerable, because they're coming to you for help, for more insight into what's going on with them. And so it's a very exquisite boundary that you have to keep with them, because it's very easy for them to say yes, because they want to please you, or they want to know more. And it could be really, truly after the session, they're really sorry they did that, and they felt coerced in some way, on maybe just a very, just a very slight level. So I think it's much better to talk about that. This is, yes, I'm a DO, I'm a physician, and this is the work, but I also bring in some other elements into my work as a physician. And one of them is, I use my intuitio--so that there it's ahead of time it's not sprung on them. And so I think it's really easy to have an ethical violation if it's coming up spontaneously in a session, they have no idea that you're going to go there, and that can feel like they're going to say yes because they just want to please you, as I said, or they're just vulnerable, and that's really managing the power differential, which is inherent in all therapeutic relationships. And you're the one with the power and if the patient or the client that is is needing the help. I'm an energy healing practitioner myself. It's my responsibility to make sure I am honoring the power differential and making sure that my client--because I don't have patients. I just have clients--really are not being coerced in any manner, so that it's really their choice to enter into this next step of what you're doing with them during an exam. So that's what I say. I'm not a really big fan of a verbal consent with respect to medical intuition and intuitive readings with people when it's sprung on them, because I think it can create some issues with vulnerability, and patients can say, Oh, I'm fine, and then they go back where they tell their family members, and maybe there's some cultural things going on that that's really considered the work of the devil. There's all kinds of things that can happen, which I've seen. So it's just for me, it's much better to be upfront about what it is you do, and then have a separate informed consent if they're interested in wanting to use those skills that you have. And again, it's about patient autonomy, their right to choose what kinds of healthcare services they want to have.
Rob Lutz 23:27
Makes sense. Wendie, I think you had a comment or something.
Wendie Colter 26:16
Yeah, this is such an important discussion. I'm a standalone medical intuitive. I've worked with many doctors, but I am not a licensed care practitioner, as I mentioned, so I don't have these considerations. But my consideration is, when I work with a doctor on behalf of their patient, how do I do that? And I've done a lot of that. Where's the form for that? Who's the actual client? So these are really deep questions. One thing I also want to say to what Midge was saying is, as a medical intuitive, I'm not just looking at the physiology or the underlying causes of the physiology. I'm not even just looking at emotional causes or reasons or mental, spiritual in a broad sense. I'm looking at it incredibly specifically, I'm looking at life history. I'm looking at early trauma. I'm looking at things that can really potentially trigger somebody, right? And as I describe them--and my process, Mary, is not to have a conversation, so to speak, with a client or ask them direct questions. My process is just to look and see and tell them what I see, and if it's something that could be potentially triggering, I have a protocol for that, just so they understand and they can make a choice. But that's where it gets like what Midge is talking about, this power differential. You want to have it written out for them to sign that says, I understand I might hear things that might make me uncomfortable. I have the right to say no or stop. So we want to give people--patients and clients, but no matter how we use medical intuition--a framework so they understand what they can expect, what is expected of them. And I think this is what an informed consent ideally should do, right?
Mary Louder 27:59
Yes, yes. And I think to that word "expectation," that was one of the things that I feel so strongly about is, what is the expectation. I had a medical intuitive refer a patient to me because I was an intuitive physician, and I am scratching my head here because it was concerning, because what they had was a misdiagnosis. And it was in the area of Chronic Lyme and it was because it really is the conundrum of who believes what a patient can have. And again, I see that going back to a physician saying they can only diagnose that which they entertain, otherwise you just don't. And so if you don't believe a person can have that, they don't have it. And that's a whole ethical thing right there as well. But if you walk a patient through that, and I say, Well, I really think consideration for, let's say Chronic Lyme, let's just put that out there, as controversial as all that is, and then here's how we would confirm that, and then the response from the patient was, well, now I gotta go back to my real intuitive to see if that's the right test. I'll tell you what: I about fell out of my chair. I'll be really candid on that, but I'm like, Well, if I wasn't booked in as the intuitive, I might have been okay to get this test done. Right? I might have been able to move forward.
Wendie Colter 29:25
Now you know what it's like.
Mary Louder 29:28
I'm just like, great and reading for the role of chopped liver over here. I mean, that's the other side of the expectation and understanding that. I think that's why this discussion is so very important, and I'm so appreciative to be able to have this today. But anyway, I'll throw that out, and let's get some feedback on that concept.
Wendie Colter 29:53
There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of intuitive doctors out there that can't say a word about it to their colleagues. They can't tell anyone in the clinic or the hospital they work in. They come up to me after I speak at these integrative healthcare conferences, and they tell me all their stories, and they're like, I'm so glad I have an opportunity just to talk about this, because everyone thinks I have three heads and an antenna when I say things and you know, they're not alone. Nurses as well. Nurses are a little more--there's a little more room in the field for them to be "intuitive." Everybody's intuitive. The question is, have you cultivated it? Do you trust it? Gosh, Mary, what you're talking about is my client base, people who feel they've been misdiagnosed, or they don't know what to do with their diagnosis, or there's not enough help for it, or what we see medical intuitive, the ones that, like me, who been working for over 20 years, have seen medicine change, and that things that were considered not healthcare issues, Lyme disease being a good one, or chronic fatigue, or you name it, a thousand of them, and then all of a sudden, 20 years later, they're actually a thing, but we saw it way back when. What happens for those people? How do they get validation? How do they get help? Well, this is medical intuitives, this is our wheelhouse, you could say. This is one of the reasons I love working directly with doctors, with medical doctors, because I could see potentially, this field of healthcare that you don't have any knowledge about. Chinese medicine, for example, might not be within your purview, but this may assist in this process. These tests may assist in this process. Things that I don't have personally a knowledge of, but I have an intuitive understanding, an intuative information about. That's the way it is, intuitive information. That's the value of it. And Mary, you're using it in your practice beautifully. And to be able for a DO or an MD, to openly say, I am a medical intuitive, along with this, this is where we're going. This is what we want. And, Mary, you identify as a medical ntuitive, and I think accurately. However, this is why we're talking about the legal risks and the ethics around it, to see how we can successfully integrate this. I call it coming out of the shadows.
Rob Lutz 32:11
I have a question for Mary, and I think both Wendie and Midge, you guys can chime in a little bit. But, Mary, you talked about expectations, and what I'm thinking you're meaning is probably the expectations for the patient who's coming into your office, if you're going to be talking to them about your use of medical intuition. Could you give us an example of, maybe a little bit how you use this in your practice, and what you might say to the patient to help create expectations of what that process might be like?
Mary Louder 32:38
When they have booked a medical, intuitive wellness visit--that's what I call it because I'm looking for wellness, I'm not going to be looking for disease. Disease will pop up. It makes itself known. So that's how I've always thought. So in doing that, and they do sign an informed consent for that, Midge, I'm on board with that. I'll just bring it into my whole practice, and I appreciate that information, and I'm going to incorporate that right away, because I think my toes are at the edge of the envelope as usual, so I'm good there. I'm comfortable, but I certainly appreciate and want to be even better in that. So, thank you. But I think the expectation of, am I just going to read their mail for them? Am I going to tell them all the things that are wrong with them? Am I going to tell them the secret about Uncle Sam and Auntie Jane, who they've never told anybody? Am I going to pull out the family secrets about the family jewels? I'm like, that's not how this works, and it has been my experience if somebody really wants to hide something, you don't see it, no matter how intuitive you are. You see something that's there and you see a fog, or you see something and you see something that's not clear, or you hear something that's not clear and it's confusing. But if they're going to really want to hide, they're going to hide. And so it takes both parties to come together and you create a biofield. Energetically, you create a biofield. Anytime you turn your attention to something, you change that environment 100%, no matter if that's your intention or not. But that's just quantum physics. You just have to know you're in the quantum physics field. So when you turn your attention and put your attention on something, that intention changes something. So you've got that whole subtlety to the whole just absolute, yep, we're going down into the medical intuitive field, and it's just so absolutely obvious. But when you create that biofield, that's where the exchange happens. And I think that's where we do things, and where we talk about the power differential, we talk about the intention, we talk about the goals of how is this really meant to look? And I think defining what happens within that biofield, in the olden days we called it the doctor/patient relationship, the sacredness of it, the confidentiality of it, the honesty of that, I call it sitting on the front row of their life and how honoring that is that they would even consider putting me there. I mean, I take that with great care, absolute great care, and it just even gets me feeling a little emotional now about all the things that I've done that way and helped people, that's completely the intention I bring to my encounters.
Wendie Colter 35:32
That's beautiful, what you're saying.
Mary Louder 35:36
Go ahead.
Wendie Colter 35:38
I didn't want to cut you off.
Mary Louder 35:40
I'm good.
Wendie Colter 35:41
I just want to point out, first of all, gorgeous, and you're right, it is a complete privilege to look into people's energy and show them where the blind spots are, so to speak. Physically, emotionally, spiritually, energetically. There's something, I want to say this as president of this organization, and seeing how so many different self-identified medical intuitives work in their practices. It is as varied as it can be, right? And the way I teach and the way I work is a very specific method that allows whatever that needs to be seen to be seen, as Mary put it, and we can see whatever there is to see. And sometimes the answer is, we don't say it if it's not relevant, or if the client, that kind of thing. So this is where ethics come in. This is where understanding your scope comes in, because my process is different than Mary's, but the ethics remain the same. And so that's really what I'll say again that the National Organization for Medical Intuition set out to do, with Midge's help with other people who understand the power differential problems or challenges that understand the ethics that are needed just to do this work. So if you get, and Midge's point is right on, and we want to offer tools and information to help any practitioner either use their intuition more accurately, using an ethical guideline, using informed consent, and the medical intuitives out there that are self-identified, which is really our membership, for that part of our membership, is we want you guys to understand. We want everybody to understand what our scope is and what it isn't. So however we use our intuition, we can use it within that framework.
Midge Murphy 37:27
I just really want to applaud Mary in terms of when you talk about your relationship with your patients as a sacred act, and that is my orientation as well. And my book Practice Energy Healing In Integrity. I have a whole chapter on sacred contracts and that I view that--for me, I don't have patients--but my relationship with my clients is a sacred contract. And I when I was going through my PhD program in energy medicine, my dissertation committee head was Norm Shealy, and I was working with Carolyn Myss at the same time. So I go way back with those two. And I actually have a chapter in my book, and I call it Sacred Contracts, the archetypes that really help guardians of ethical relationships, or the archetypes in the sacred contracts, kind of based on Carolyn's book, and I have her blessings for that. So I just wanted to really say that I just so appreciate hearing from you that that's such a core part of who you are, and that's how you view your relationships and I think that's a really beautiful thing. And I just wish more people thought of it in those terms.
Wendie Colter 38:38
We wish all of medicine was like that.
Mary Louder 38:43
I have been told I'm unique that way, and I thank you. Thank you. That's very kind, very kind. And interesting to the ethics part, another thing that arose, I had a medical intuitive give marital advice, and are you ready for this one? Y'all hang on to your hats. It blew up a family.
Midge Murphy 39:05
Yeah, of course, yeah. It's practicing psychotherapysychotherapy without a license. I mean, that is something where that medical intuitive could have been sued for negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, probably violating confidentiality and privacy, could have been sued by that family for that session that was given and the "advice," and also, a licensing board in her state could have come after her for practicing psychotherapy without a license. So unfortunately, these things happen. There's a myth out there that anybody that does energy healing, or they do intuitive readings, all that kind of stuff, well it's completely safe and it's not invasive and completely harmless, and that is such a myth, because here's a prime example of just what is Mary's experience. I mean, it blew a family up. I'm going to be speaking to someone after our podcast, who reached out to me and said she was working with an intuitive healer and was very severely damaged by her. And I don't know any of the details, but the DA is looking into filing charges, so I'm giving her a free consultation to just see where she's at and get some more information. But again, I think that medical intuitives, and I think that's why being properly trained and reading my book and taking the exam creates a framework for practitioners to become more ethical and more professional, and therefore they're better in terms of how they work with their patients and their clients.
Rob Lutz 40:36
So I have a question around this whole topic now, and it was something I was going to ask a moment ago to Wendie, but really to everybody: You mentioned scope. And I may be misinterpreting what that means, but what I'm hearing with this is someone who gave marital advice was outside the scope of what that visit should have been. Even though they heard something potentially, they shouldn't have brought that into the conversation. That's not what they were there for. Wyou mentioned scope, is that kind of what you're talking about?
Midge Murphy 41:03
It's a little broader than that. It's scope of practice. And actually, ultimately, your scope of practice is defined by law. So for instance, that person who was giving marital advice was, as I mentioned, was practicing psychotherapy without a license, and for me, as a non-licensed practitioner, my biggest risks are that I will be perceived as practicing medicine or psychotherapy without a license, and it may be some other--those are the main ones that we face as unlicensed--and so they have a different arena that they have to maneuver through. So that's why we write disclaimers. We have client agreements. We don't have informed consents for our clients, because we don't want even a whiff of the perception that we're offering any kind of licensed healthcare services, and we state that in our client agreements and on our websites. For instance, let's say there's someone who's a medical intuitive and they have a website, you really need to say medical intuition is considered part of the field of complementary and alternative medicine, and as a medical intuitive, it's not to be construed that it is the practice of medicine, psychotherapy, or any other licensed healthcare practice, and my service is not licensed as a licensed practitioner. So it depends on your state, too, because states are somewhere different with their healthcare freedom laws. So scope of practice, I mean, that is so critical for all practitioners to understand. Now we talked a little bit about what are the major risks that licensed practitioners face when they bring energy healing or biofield practices into their practices. It's very important that they do not be perceived as practicing below the standards of care or outside their legally defined scope of practice. Now, DOs and MDs kind of have an unrestricted license in a way. Here's the deal. The way that medical practice acts have been construed and legal cases have been adjudicated is that just about any kind of healing is considered the practice of medicine. So you have to be extremely careful. You don't even call yourself a healer if you're an energy healing practitioner, because there's two things there. The ethical issue is--and this is my own personal code of ethics--the only healer in the room is my client. I am not a healer. And then the other piece is the legal issue. If you call yourself a healer, that's a slam dunk. You're practicing medicine without a license. So you really have to understand, based on what it is you're offering to the public, what is your legally defined scope of practice. Now, for licensed folks, it's set in black and white. You go to the Medical Practice Act that says this is your scope of practice. You go to a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, the law will state clearly what is your scope of practice. For acupuncturists as well. I mean, there were some chiropractors that were getting in trouble because they were starting to diagnose diseases and not working with the spine, and they were charged with practicing medicine without a license. You've got to stay in your lane and that's what Wendie was alluding to at the beginning of our talk. There's a lane that we need to follow, but there can be integration that can really help our patients and our clients. We're creating this. We have to work with the current legal and regulatory paradigm and framework that governs healthcare professionals. And, Mary said it first; she said woowoo. So there's a lot of stuff that the establishment, which I talk about would be licensing boards, regulatory agencies and courts of law. They still think we're on the fringe, and even right now, it's fascinating to me. EFT tapping. There's meta analysis studies. It's been studied for 30 years. They have a whole bunch of robust research. It's been published in peer-reviewed journals, and the APA is still going after some professors, they are going after the EFT community and we have these issues with a lot of people pushing back. And so I think that's why it's important to come across as professional, be well trained, get your certification, if it's possible for you. That's really important. And so, scope of practice is, the bottom line, is ultimately defined by the laws and regulations that apply to you. So hope I answered your question, Rob.
Rob Lutz 45:08
You did; thank you. I have another question about legal risks, say, for someone like Mary or another licensed MD or DO who wants to bring a medical intuitive into their practice. Can you talk a little bit about that, Midge, and maybe Mary, what are your thoughts on that as well?
Mary Louder 45:24
I'm going to defer to the attorney.
Midge Murphy 45:29
I don't actually practice as an attorney anymore. I'm a risk management consultant, but I can certainly address this question. There's a lot of things to consider. Most physicians understand that all the people in their clinic that they are supervising or are part of their their care team, they are ultimately legally responsible for everything that they do, and that's under the legal principle of vicarious liability. That's what it's called: vicarious liability. So saying that, if I was a physician and I wanted to bring in a medical intuitive, this is what I would require: That they'd read my book and taken my exam, they have a certificate of completion, that they have some level of understanding and competency in ethics and legal issues in the practice of biofield practices, I would want them certified by a legitimate professional certification program such as Wendie's, because that's going to bring to you someone who takes this seriously, who has some proper training. They've learned a particular method, and Wendie's is very specific into how she works with her students and how she trains her practitioners. And so that would be critical. I mean, I would never hire someone that said, Well, I just kind of came about this. They may be out there. They probably are. This is just--I learned how to do this on my own. Because here's what I've experienced over the 20 years I've been doing this, is that there's this thing in our field, in the field of energy healing and biofield practice is like, well, of course I'm ethical. I want to help people. That's it. They don't understand anything about the dynamics of having a client-centered practice, like we talked about the power differential. We want to address transference and counter-transference issues. We want to talk about the fiduciary relationship that we have with our clients, which means the trust they're putting in us, and the privacy and confidentiality issues, things like that and we want to be very careful and mindful of dual relationships. So I think that, I'm so excited about Wendie's organization, and the one I just was working on with practices, the National Association for Biofield Practices, is, let's bring the field up. Let's take those folks who want to be energy healing practitioners, and let's properly train them so that they can be more effective and working and cause less problems with people that they work with. So there's a lot of education that needs to be going on in our field. And so here are the pioneers, we're all sitting here, trying to bring up the level, because that's how we can be a better service. That's the bottom line. It's about being in better service to the people that that want to seek our help.
Rob Lutz 48:10
What about the legal risks for somebody like Mary who's going to refer patients to a medical intuitive?
Mary Louder 48:19
Yeah, let me maybe--go ahead, Wendie.
Wendie Colter 48:23
Well, actually, I want to back up a little bit what Midge was talking about, about bringing a medical intuitive into their clinical practice. This is already happening. It's already happening. Many of my grads are working directly with psychologists, with medical doctors, with DOs, with--if they're not already licensed with other licensed healthcare practitioners, and they're working as referrals, excuse me, they're working in the clinical practice with them, and that's been this big "we don't know how to deal with it" kind of thing, and we're just sort of getting the the right kind of paperwork together to know who's responsible, and as Midge said, it is the physician or the licensed provider, who is responsible, so that we can slot into that. So there's already a paradigm for it. That's when you're working with the patient in the clinical environment, there's also working with the patient, working with the doctor without the patient there. I actually do a lot of that. Who's the client in that case? And what I have to say--because there's no formalized yet way to do it, although Midge and I are working on it--is I have to say, this is under your purview. You're hiring me as a consultant. So that has been a fuzzy relationship for many medical intuitives over the decades. And then there's working with the client and having the client okay me speaking with their doctor, right? There's all these variations on a theme here, but we haven't yet had a formalized way to handle it. And then, of course, we're talking earlier about the physician or the practitioner, as intuitive licensed practitioner, as intuitive. So all of these things have to be dealt with. You know, NOMI is trying to do that, National Organization for Medical Intuition. Midge's new organization, National Association for Biofield Practices, is looking to also codify and formalize these, these ways of working so that we can all move forward. And this is what we're up to right now. Referrals, I'm happy to talk about that. I get referrals all the time. And actually one of the very first things that NOMI did was a survey, we sent it to over 300 self-identified medical intuitives a few years ago just to ask them how they work with within healthcare. And we found that 82% of them said they work directly with a licensed healthcare provider. If they weren't one themselves, they work directly with them. Interesting. That's a very high number, you know?
Mary Louder 50:51
Yeah, it is very high.
Wendie Colter 50:54
And 86% of them receive referrals. Now, that doesn't surprise me at all. I receive referrals all the time. That's an easy one, because I'm working directly with the patient. The patient is now my client. I have a client agreement, no problem. When, if they want me to interact with their doctor, that's another story. I guess what I'm saying here is...
Midge Murphy 51:14
Just get a release of authorization. You just get them to sign a release of authorization, allowing you to--that's easy to do. It's just so that's clear that you've been given permission by your client for you to speak to their healthcare provider.
Wendie Colter 51:29
I just want to wrap this up by saying--and, Mary, please jump in--that medical intuitives are being asked to refer, they're being referred more and more. They're working with more and more. And the time is now to get this understood and put together correctly.
Mary Louder 51:46
I think that's a super good point. I think of when I practiced in Colorado, I was a medical director over clinics and over different things. The people that I supervised, I had to have the skill set that I was supervising. And so I wonder about that in terms of this place, at least an understanding of medical intuition, or be practicing medical intuition, even if you aren't going to use it, to bring someone in to oversee them in your practice, if you are really incorporating it that way. I see outside as a referral source, someone who you trust, just like any--I mean, there's a cardiologist I'll use, and there's a cardiologist I won't use. Why? Care, service, accuracy, outcomes, etc., etc. Same thing. So I would look at it that way, as a physician, where am I going to go? Who am I going to trust? And so I think those are the things that came through for me in thinking about this, in hearing this as a physician. Definitely, if they're in my purview, I want to have a an understanding and a skill set that I'm supervising, and I think that could be a push towards an understanding or a standardization with that, because if I'm going to be held liable for something, I need to know what and why, etc.
Rob Lutz 53:09
Makes sense. So I think we touched on this one before, this question, but maybe just to wrap it up or some additional clarity. I think all three of you could provide some information about this. How does a licensed healthcare provider choose a medical intuitive? So, Mary, you talked a little bit about that. I think you've all touched on it, but do we want to wrap it up and put a bow on it? What do you look for? Or how do you do that from each of your perspective?
Wendie Colter 53:35
Well, my perspective is skewed because I train medical intuitives.
Rob Lutz 53:39
That'shat's what I've heard everyone say.
Mary Louder 53:40
"First, you should take my programs."
Wendie Colter 53:42
Or you take a reputable program, a reputable program, a program that teaches ethics. Here, I want to say this because I wrote it down and I want to mention it. So much of what we do as medical intuitives is watch our language, right? That's where the power differential can really be spotted. Am I giving orders or am I making suggestions? Right? And the suggestion part supports the client's free will. Hello? Their option, their choice, which is why it's a client-centered approach, as Midge mentioned. So I'm sorry, Rob, the main question was?
Rob Lutz 53:42
As a medical professional, how do you choose a medical intuitive?
Wendie Colter 53:49
I'll tell you, as an educator, just as Midge is saying, you want someone who's been...years in the field is not necessarily a harbinger of whether or not they're good at what they do. Because intuition--look, I have no medical training, no medical background. I see these things all the time that I would have no understanding of, and that was natural to me from the start of my career. So that's not it. Although that might be consideration for some people. Whether or not they have a practice that is a professional practice, to me, seems to be one of the main things you would look for. Do they have a client agreement in that regard. Do they have the legal paperwork? They have all that in place? How are they talking about their practice? Are they talking about, do they cure people or they heal people? That's a big no-no for medical intuition. Frankly, it's a big no-no for just about any energy-based practice, as Midge would say, and I think agree with me. Do they have a practice insurance? There's practice insurance almost all over. I could be wrong about this, but I know in the US, there's several options. In Canada, in Australia, New Zealand, and other parts of the world, there is an opportunity for insurance. Some places there aren't. I know that's true as well, I've heard from other people. But if you can get it, get it. It's very important. Ethics training, hugely important. Midge's book, in my opinion, is the gold standard for this in terms of biofield and energy practices. And she lays it all out. I have my students take her exam. It's the top of the line, in my opinion. And other people take different kinds of ethics things, but you have to have some ethics training in how this all works. So I would say right off the bat, those three things are critically important.
Midge Murphy 56:14
It's not just ethics. It's not just ethics. Ethic violations lead to legal liability. So ethics trading is only part of puzzleou. You really have to address and be mindful. Licensed healthcare people understand the legal aspects of being a practitioner, a licensed practitioner, so it's ethics and legal issues. And then what I add, because we're in this really unknown territory is risk management strategies. There are risks involved in all of this. And so when you're calling yourself a medical intuitive, you're kind of at the top of the heat in terms of risk, because you're using the word "medical." So how do you tone that down? What kind of disclosures can you make in your client agreement websites? So it's really important that it's also about risk management. How do you market yourself as an energy healing or biofield practitioner or a medical intuitive? All of this is covered in my book, because ethics is just the start. It's really about understanding the legal issues as well as how do you manage the risk of offering your services to the public, just based on what we all have to deal with here in the United States in terms of the laws and regulations that apply to us. So, I mean, I think I would say you really need to be trained in ethics and legal issues. You need to and be able to demonstrate that somehow. Reading a book? Who cares? You need a certificate that is aprofessional credential that you can show to the physician who's wanting to offer you referrals. As a physician, those are the things I would be looking for, because you want to make sure that you are doing everything you can to protect your license. So, yeah, did they come from a reputable school? Is their orientation...vet their website making sure that how they're presenting themselves is really in alignment with just being a skill set and assessment tool to really help people manage and understand what's going on with them, physically, mentally, emotionally, and energetically. Those, to me, are really important from a physician or any kind of licensed healthcare professional who is wanting to offer referrals to a medical intuitive to make sure that person they're referring to has those credentials.
Rob Lutz 58:23
So you mentioned medical intuitive is almost like you're putting a spotlight or a target on yourself because you're saying "medical." Mary, when you were talking about having some of the sessions with your patients, you call it something different. You said, was it intuitive wellness visit? Or what did you call it?
Mary Louder 58:39
Yeah, I did call it medical intuition, or medical intuitive wellness visit. Because what I'm looking for is health. Yeah, we'll find the disease. It will pop up. What we need to see will show and there's a way that I look at the energy field to do that. And there's a diagram I follow and notes I take and what it looks like, and that note is different than an encounter note. So that's how that looks, but it's booked as a wellness, because everything I do is--anybody can find disease, and I also believe fully that it is the patient who heals themselves. I'm just there assisting and pointing and helping and guiding. Hence Cairn Medical, which are the stacks of rocks by the trail that gives you guidance. And that's the whole thing. And I think one thing is, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. And if it feels kind of slick and slippery, it probably is. And I think pausing and understanding and really looking around the facilities. What's going on? What's the environment like? Literally, use your intuition on the intuitive because you want to be able--because, again, it's built upon trust, truthfulness and communication. I think that those are the most important things, and people are desperate and looking for answers. And then you've got people who, I think, to Midge's point and intention of wanting to help, and just because they want to help doesn't mean that they're the right person to help. I have rarely met a poorly intended doctor. I've met doctors who are stressed, but I think all of them really want to help people. And I think the same is true in this world. A lot of people get attracted to this world because they want to help, but they also need to have the right credentials. They need to have the right licensing and scope, and that is clearly defined. And yes, I became a physician because I wanted the most unrestricted scope of practice. I knew where I was going, absolutely I made those choices, and then I wanted freedom within there based upon how I live my life and ethics and choices, and it's worked. And now I want to share that very same thing with other people, so the other physicians and providers that want to learn can do that and really be released into who they are as a physician to bring that, because I think it's super important. Patients get, they go in with a set of symptoms, they're concerned, they've got Dr. Google. Then they get misaligned, they get misunderstood. It's all in their head. It's, here's a tablet, go away. And it's just, we're not helping people. And really, at the heart of this, our healthcare system needs to be revamped. People need to have the decisions back into their own sovereignty and their own ability to make choices and to have their own understanding, and to be able to understand that the body has the intuitive capacity to heal and nobody's going to be "fixed." And so I think those things and being guided by those principles are very, very important for the entire scope of this kind of work.
Rob Lutz 1:02:14
Wendie?
Wendie Colter 1:02:14
Beautiful. I'll add that anyone who's interested in working with a medical intuitive that's been vetted by the National Organization for Medical Intuition--and we do a level of vetting to see if their presentation aligns with our requirements and what we consider a quality scope of practice in terms of how to practice ethically and with the right legal understanding--go to the National Organization for Medical Intuition's website. It's nomimedicalintuition.org. Take a look at our code of ethics. Midge wrote that for us, and it is pretty comprehensive in terms of how a medical intuitive, what they need to know to practice ethically and within that legal framework that Midge has defined. Look at our definition of medical intuition. It's very specific in terms of what we consider the assessment process of medical intuition. And there's more information on there. And please do become a member. Support us. Because we need as many folks from this demographic, which is the integrative healthcare field that is invested in this concept of broader understanding of how to heal, how to provide a path to healing for whatever it is we do. And, Rob, thank you so much for allowing us to bring this incredibly important topic to light for your audience, which is really just right on the cutting edge of this whole conversation as well.
Rob Lutz 1:03:45
I really enjoy this, and I think we touched on a number of things. I mean, I feel like medical intuition has a really bright future, and I'd like each of you to share a little bit of what you see the future as. But it also feels to me like there's a real need for training and the ethics and the legal understanding just to protect the patient, protect the practitioner. And so I know you've touched on that, and you mentioned a few different links, which I'll make sure in the show notes for listeners that want to go deeper, or go to your website and learn more about it. And, Midge, same with you as well; I know you've got some resources to share. I'll make sure those links are there. But, if each of you could just spend a couple minutes, I love the key takeaways, or what you see is the future of medical intuition. And we'll wrap it up with that. Dr. Louder, Mary, if you wouldn't mind going first.
Mary Louder 1:04:29
Sure. I think the world is our oyster on this. I really do. I just feel a bright future because we're at a crossroads, and I think having an increased awareness of other opportunities and the education, meeting the intention and the interest coming together, we'll have the perfect Venn diagram to move forward to figure this out.
Rob Lutz 1:04:51
Thank you. And, Midge, what would you like to share about the future or any key takeaways you want the listener to come away with?
Midge Murphy 1:05:00
Well, I think that we are at the cutting edge. And I've known about medical intuition since I started working with Norm and Carolyn over 20 years ago, and then for the last eight or nine years with Wendie. And what I'm really hopeful about is that medical intuition is not controversial at all. It's just the norm. Of course, we talk to our medical intuitive. Of course, it's part of the care team. And that's what I want to see, is that it's no longer out there in the field trying to move things forward, that it's just become commonplace. And that's where I would like to see it go.
Rob Lutz 1:05:34
That's great. And, Wendie, you want to wrap it up for us?
Wendie Colter 1:05:38
Well, myself and my colleagues began the National Organization for Medical Intuition for this very reason. There's not one medical intuitive out there who's been working for a while that hasn't seen the heartbreaking stories and experiences of our clients grappling with a system that doesn't support them. And we understand deeply the value that this skill can bring to enhancing health for everyone to the patients and the clients, of course, because they're the ones who are dealing with all of this, but also to the healthcare world. So we saw, we looked ahead, and we said, is there an opportunity for medical intuitives to integrate, and if so, how? And we thought this was such a potent question, and our research showed us that there was enough people out there who were interested in this, from both sides, that we began the organization. So our goal is to, within the next, I don't know, two years, five years, maybe tomorrow, officially have a path for medical intuitives to be openly working in the healthcare field. They are working clandestinely. Now we have to change that, and this is how any field comes into its own right. You look at acupuncture 40, 50 years ago, it was like this, the way medical intuition is now, so there's already a way forward, and we need everybody on board, too, who resonates with this to help us move this forward.
Rob Lutz 1:07:10
Well, thank you all. This was really fantastic. I enjoyed it, and I think this was important information for the listeners to be aware of, the ethics and the legal side of this as well. So thank you all, and I just appreciate it, and I'm sure I'll have you all back on sometime. This was great. Thank you so much.
Midge Murphy 1:07:27
Thank you, Rob.
Rob Lutz 1:07:29
Thanks for listening to the OneMedicine Podcast. I hope you found today's episode interesting and came away with a few insights you can apply to your practice. If you're looking for the show notes, they can be found in the link below. If you want to go deeper on this topic or anything else, please visit todayspractitioner.com and consider registering for our weekly newsletter as well. Thanks again, and I hope you'll join us next time.