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FUTURE OF XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00;00;04;00 - 00;00;22;20
Speaker 1
Hi and welcome to the first ever live recording of Future of XYZ. Today we're going to be talking about the future of Not Fast Furniture with industrial designer Brad Ascalon. Brad is here with us at neocon. Brad, thanks for being part of XYZ.
00;00;22;23 - 00;00;25;17
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me here. I love it.
00;00;25;19 - 00;00;47;18
Speaker 1
this is really exciting. I've actually never sat across from someone while I'm interviewing them. it makes it a little interesting and a little strange, but also awesome. you run an award winning studio, based in New York / Long Island, where you live. You're regarded as one of the leading American design voices of your generation.
00;00;47;18 - 00;01;12;02
Speaker 1
When you graduated from Pratt with your masters in industrial design. I believe wallpaper magazine named you, ten Most Wanted emerging Designers that year. you've since had 20 years of your studio working, in furniture, mostly contract hospitality, residential, plus lighting, packaging and other consumer products. we're going to talk today about not fast furniture.
00;01;12;05 - 00;01;19;16
Speaker 1
And we're going to start by defining that, which is always the same question for every episode of XYZ. So I'm going to hand it over to you.
00;01;19;20 - 00;01;44;12
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So it's such a broad question. It's such a broad topic. And I think you could approach, the idea of not fast furniture in so many ways. And, you know, there has to be some understanding of, of quality of, of longevity, of kind of human connection. what it's not is quick to market furniture that you know, fulfills a need for a trend or a fad that's going to fade away.
00;01;44;14 - 00;01;50;22
Speaker 2
So I think, there's so much in that that we can squeeze into the conversation today.
00;01;50;25 - 00;02;03;00
Speaker 1
well, I'm looking forward to it. I mean, I'm just going to start out with a provocation. Okay. is not fast furniture different from what most of the furniture industry is creating today?
00;02;03;03 - 00;02;32;10
Speaker 2
No, I think a lot of companies are creating amazing products, you know? I think there there seems to be this need for, filling in spaces and having less attention placed on the filler. And I think that's where that's where we're kind of going with this idea of not fast furniture, you know? everything needs intention. Everything needs to be, you know, when you're putting a product into the market you have a responsibility to your customers, to the people who are using it, to those, those stakeholders.
00;02;32;13 - 00;02;57;18
Speaker 2
and certainly to the environment. So when when you're tasked with designing furniture and putting it out there, there's different approaches to it. And I think a lot of companies, more than ever, especially in the contract market, understand that, you know, they want to be as sustainable as possible. We're really creating, inclusive aspects that we're really never even part of the conversation five, ten years ago.
00;02;57;22 - 00;03;08;09
Speaker 1
Well, that's an interesting piece. I just want to very briefly touch on. Is there a difference that you're seeing in this approach to not fast furniture versus fast furniture between the consumer market and the contract market?
00;03;08;11 - 00;03;21;16
Speaker 2
Well, a lot of the work I do is most of the work I do is contract, right. the consumer market, I think, has a long way to catch up. and they're not there. Some companies want to be there. but I think there's there's a big difference between the two.
00;03;21;17 - 00;03;32;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. And just for listeners who aren't in this, like, neocon environment, who are totally indoctrinated, let's just say in the furniture industry very briefly, what's the difference between contract and not contract furniture?
00;03;33;01 - 00;03;48;10
Speaker 2
Oh, so that's a funny question, because when I got into this industry, I didn't even know there was a difference. It was just furniture, right? I came to my first neocon show and, you know, and I realized at the time, you know, 18, 19 years ago, you would sit in a sofa. And it was hard. It was not meant to be comforting.
00;03;48;10 - 00;04;07;10
Speaker 2
It was not meant to support you. It was meant to be temporary because you're in lobby, you're in your waiting room, something like that, you know, and and that was that was contract furniture at that time, you know, and then all of a sudden, this hospitality element, contract furniture came in years later. And, and now it's all just so homogenized in a beautiful way, you know.
00;04;07;12 - 00;04;23;24
Speaker 1
Interesting. I think that's one of the things that's, interesting to me about you. I mean, we've known each other now for a number of years since I joined iF Design, actually. Yep. you were one of the first people I met and as I've gotten to know you, I think it's really interesting to learn your background, which came out of quite an artistic house.
00;04;23;24 - 00;04;48;24
Speaker 1
Your father's pretty well renowned sculptor. Your grandfather was an industrial designer. You've often said that growing up in that kind of household really kind of gave you a feeling for both creativity but also materiality. Yeah. which probably influences your work quite a bit. that sense of craftsmanship and, and and the rigor, perhaps of your design practice, how did you eventually find your way from like, you were like, I'm not doing the family business, quote unquote.
00;04;48;24 - 00;05;00;13
Speaker 1
You're like, I'm going to study business. Yeah. but you found your way obviously back to to this. How did that happen? And like, where's the role of that rigor in the not fast furniture space?
00;05;00;16 - 00;05;23;08
Speaker 2
That's a lot. Okay. So, you know. Yeah. So, so my my father's an artist. He he does his whole life. He's done amazing installations in the world of stained glass and sculpture. And my grandfather, the same. And so materiality to me was something like the materials or something you respect, you know, if you're not going to make good use of them, it's not worth doing right.
00;05;23;10 - 00;05;45;24
Speaker 2
When I was 14 years old, 15 years old, my mom would pick me up from high school and take me to the studio, and I was my father's apprentice. I'd learn how to do mosaics and, you know, metal sculpture, welding and all of that. And so I just loved, I loved that aspect. I loved creating, when it was time to, like, go to school, I, you know, bucked the family grain, and I wanted to do business.
00;05;45;25 - 00;06;03;28
Speaker 2
I went into pre business, took all the curriculum, you know, and all the courses. And I was, as you know, as a family of a creative. I was taking microeconomic analysis, macroeconomic analysis, money and banking. And I'm just like oh my goodness I don't belong here, right? eventually I found my way into the music industry. Excuse me?
00;06;03;28 - 00;06;20;04
Speaker 2
The music industry, which is really where I wanted to be. And after about 3 or 4 years of that, I was like, I can't be around these people. I can't be around this industry. It's not what I thought it was. I had this quarter life crisis and, my father, who I love to death, but he we never had heart to hearts.
00;06;20;07 - 00;06;37;21
Speaker 2
He just sat with me one day. He's like son look into architecture. And I was like, okay, I'll look into architecture. You know, along that way, I found industrial design. And I was just like, you mean people actually make these things? It's not a button you push on a conveyor belt and something comes out. I became fascinated with it.
00;06;37;24 - 00;06;55;09
Speaker 2
My my take on it, though, was like, I love the idea that you can influence people. You can create something that people want to own or need to own or make their lives better. So I departed. The creativity went from physical creation to kind of ideation and creation of, mass produced products.
00;06;55;16 - 00;07;18;08
Speaker 1
What I love about that story is like, it's not just pressing a button. Wait, what? Like I think most people on this planet who are not creators don't actually think about the process. I mean, it's like anything that you get involved in, you don't necessarily think about the process and even you who had been in your father's studio for your whole life, didn't realize, like, how much rigor goes into all of this.
00;07;18;08 - 00;07;38;04
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's obvious that materials are a big part of your practice, but there are other things as well, because we have so much that we could cover on this. Brad, we're going to go into like most of this is like a rapid fire, okay, which is not really rapid fire because they're not rapid fire questions. But I'm going to I'm going to ask you to be as succinct as possible so we can get through the maximum amount.
00;07;38;10 - 00;07;39;08
Speaker 2
Okay. You guide.
00;07;39;08 - 00;07;57;05
Speaker 1
Me. Okay. All right. So the first is, working with clients ranging from global brands, to startups, and you've been shown all over the world. You've been published all over the world, but you really work with a lot of big companies everywhere, in every continent. What are you seeing in the marketplaces of the world, that concern you?
00;07;57;05 - 00;08;04;13
Speaker 1
Vis-a-vis not fast furniture or fast furniture. And what is giving you hope?
00;08;04;15 - 00;08;33;08
Speaker 2
we'll start with the hope. I think I'm more optimistic now about the industry than I've been in a long time. I think the, you know, the advent of artificial intelligence and the concern that it's going to, like, really inject itself into our market, I think that gives us an opportunity to like, not prove it wrong, but use it wisely and actually, find new opportunities to make people's lives better, to make the material choices, the process choices that we kind of, you know, going on on a daily basis to make those better.
00;08;33;08 - 00;09;05;05
Speaker 2
So there's a lot of hope there. And I think a lot of, most companies, you know, in this building for sure are attuned to that. what worries me is that as design begets gets more popular as it's gotten so popular, you know, over the past couple of decades. it, it's become fashion, you know, and that's all over the world, you know, and I think that the concern is that there is going to we're going to continue that, that quick disposable furniture trend the way we're doing with fashion.
00;09;05;05 - 00;09;06;28
Speaker 2
So that's the biggest concern I have.
00;09;06;29 - 00;09;29;27
Speaker 1
It's it's it's fascinating. I actually just have to say that, you know, I obviously started my career in fashion and what I find interesting about what's happening in furniture to some degree, is, in fact, that, there is this kind of almost trend towards celebrity influence, etc.. and I, I think there's like this hype cycle in celebrity engagement.
00;09;29;29 - 00;09;52;29
Speaker 1
Funny that you just mentioned that because it's actually the the next question I had prepared, which is there's a difference perhaps between like big D designer, right. Like people who have the creds and the little D designer of this like influencer creative. Is there a role of that kind of difference? and respect and education understanding in this market right now?
00;09;53;02 - 00;10;09;12
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean there's definitely there's, there's a split between types of designers. And it's almost like we need a new term for it, you know? And I thought about that a lot. I think the design that I'm talking about, it's almost you're you're a functionalist. There's a stylist and then there's the functionalist. and of course there's a need for both.
00;10;09;12 - 00;10;26;05
Speaker 2
But the functionalist also has to be a stylist. The stylist doesn't necessarily have to be a functionalist. You know, we can solve problems and then create solutions that are beautiful and people want to be around, and, you know, they they could even be, like, just Easter eggs in the product. You don't even realize what's going on under the hood.
00;10;26;05 - 00;10;44;08
Speaker 2
But it's ergonomically designed so that your back doesn't hurt at the end of the day or it's, you know, making collaboration better or all of that. and it still just looks great, you know, and I think the looking great part is the dangerous part because you can't we can't continue to do that without the functional aspects, without the, the human need.
00;10;44;16 - 00;11;07;12
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, that's that leads also nicely to what I want to talk about, which is here we are at Neocon, which for anyone who's not familiar neocon is a big contract furniture show in Chicago. It takes place in Fulton Market, but also in the Mart its Fulton Design days, plus Neocon in the Merchandise Mart where we are sitting right now with Sandow, Surround podcast network.
00;11;07;14 - 00;11;26;11
Speaker 1
but you just previewed with Darren. Duran. Sorry, a sofa that you call a sensory dimmer switch because at the push of a button, someone can just and change the privacy or the feel of a space. it also just won I think last night it was announced neocons best of show for business impact.
00;11;26;14 - 00;11;32;03
Speaker 1
Talk about the importance of that personal sensory control in furniture of the future.
00;11;32;05 - 00;12;00;16
Speaker 2
So everybody is on some spectrum in neurodiverse spectrum, right. some of us have sensitivities to light, some of us has some sensitivities to sound, visuals, etc.. And I think there are these, these micro innovations that we can start to incorporate into almost everything we do. the collection limousine collection was, was just this idea that, you know, it doesn't have to be privacy, a privacy sofa, lounge chair, etc. all the time.
00;12;00;16 - 00;12;20;18
Speaker 2
So why don't we, like, give it the ability to lower, to get natural light in, to have a line of sight throughout an office space. And then when you need those moments of privacy, when you need to get a cocoon yourself from the noise, the sound, private conversation, it's literally the push of a button, you know, and that that screen goes up and now you're private.
00;12;20;20 - 00;12;36;19
Speaker 2
And what that does is that actually visually cues other people. I shouldn't go there right now. They're in their thing. They're doing, you know, doing their thing. Doing their thing. I'll come back. A high back sofa doesn't allow for that right. It's not messaging anything. If you're in it, you don't you don't know if you can approach somebody or not.
00;12;36;21 - 00;12;41;13
Speaker 2
So this allows it's a directive like leave me alone for now.
00;12;41;14 - 00;12;44;03
Speaker 1
It's so interesting or don't or come join me or whatever.
00;12;44;09 - 00;12;44;20
Speaker 2
Exactly.
00;12;44;20 - 00;12;57;19
Speaker 1
And it's of course contact furniture there. No one's going to have one of these in their home, but in an office space. especially open plan office spaces or big hospitality spaces that get co-working, etc. these
00;12;57;22 - 00;12;58;09
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;12;58;11 - 00;13;14;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. You also have debuted, a chair called the Redondo. Yeah. bridge or. Sorry and it's a hug you kind of lounge chair. how do you solve problems in not fast furniture with these kind of thoughtful details.
00;13;14;20 - 00;13;31;15
Speaker 2
Oh, that was interesting. You know, they wanted me to create, lounge furniture that was all upholstered because their specialty is upholstery. They do it so beautifully. and, you know, I started with this club chair, and I said, well, what if we invert the club chair? There's the circular kind of arms that usually go out. Let's just modernize this.
00;13;31;16 - 00;13;54;14
Speaker 2
Let's see what happens. And we played around with it. And you turn those arms in. Right. And then you just create this like it's a simple little pocket where you're sitting in the chair and it's kind of hugging you. It's like just taking care of you, you know, like physically, a little bit emotionally, you know? And it's not like a game changer by any means, but it's just, it's just a little wink to the person using it.
00;13;54;14 - 00;13;54;28
Speaker 2
You know.
00;13;55;04 - 00;14;15;19
Speaker 1
I love that, I love that, obviously there are some limitations of the global supply chain that have become very manifest in the last couple of years in the U.S, but elsewhere. Tariffs, ongoing economic concerns, etc.. How do you think this is and will continue to affect especially the not fast furniture business?
00;14;15;21 - 00;14;37;24
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, the opportunity for American brands to be producing in America changes all of that. You know, I mean, this was once a major manufacturing hub, and you're seeing that back again, I mean, in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and North Carolina and LA, even, you know, there's a there's a pride in manufacturing, here in the U.S for these American brands.
00;14;37;28 - 00;15;01;25
Speaker 2
Now, not everything, can be done here. We don't have the, the, the bandwidth for all of that. We don't have the machinery for all that, the techniques for all that. But, cost I mean, during this whole tariff ride, companies were pricing and repricing constantly trying to strategize what we're going to do. I think, in the long run, the more we can make here for the American market, right, the more we can make in Europe for the European market.
00;15;01;25 - 00;15;14;03
Speaker 2
Great. You know, even if it's the same product that you find opportunities to, you know, double manufacture. I think it's going to continue to allow companies to, hopefully feel a little more freedom.
00;15;14;06 - 00;15;25;16
Speaker 1
it's amazing. And technology, obviously, it's a big question as well. It has so many places, but it is it changing your practice and that of your peers, your competitors, your clients?
00;15;25;18 - 00;15;45;03
Speaker 2
it's it's funny when when I first really thought about how, if, if and how I wanted to use AI, I decided, like, I don't want to touch it, you know, and then I realized, you know what? I came from the music industry where they were scared of Napster, right? Instead of using it as a tool, the the record labels were scared of it.
00;15;45;05 - 00;16;14;29
Speaker 2
3D printing came along and manufacturers were worried. Oh, no, that's it for us. You know, everything's going to be 3D printed. And if we use it as a tool and we learn how to use it the right way, it's great. Now going back to my roots, my grandfather, my father, materiality was everything to them. For me to show a client an image in Photoshop and key shot all the software that I was using for so long it would be impossible to show you exactly what I'm trying to say with that material, with that detail, with that joinery, whatever it would be like, I kind of get it.
00;16;14;29 - 00;16;16;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. All right.
00;16;16;14 - 00;16;18;14
Speaker 1
it's like a move forward. It's a step in the process.
00;16;18;19 - 00;16;37;04
Speaker 2
So now it's just like I can use it to tell the story of the material, to tell the story of the of the process that I want to see, the love that I want to kind of give to this piece. And so it's like I'm continuing on that handmade legacy of my father and my grandfather through the digital realm.
00;16;37;07 - 00;16;38;28
Speaker 2
That’s really cool. That's interesting.
00;16;39;04 - 00;17;01;21
Speaker 1
I mean, okay, so I'm we're we're going to be coming up on time. So I've, I have two questions before the final one. Okay. magazines have long described you as having a quote unquote reductive approach to the craft. and you're said to, quote unquote believe in design that is uncomplicated, rational, and manages to find the perfect balance of form, function and concept.
00;17;01;23 - 00;17;23;29
Speaker 1
Sounds very lofty. but I also know that you wrote a really lofty thesis project which was called The Altruistic Imperative, which, I think has context, these two things together in in your practice, how does this relate to not fast Furniture and your kind of, sense of the world?
00;17;24;01 - 00;17;39;26
Speaker 2
Wow. Okay. when I was in grad school, yeah, I went to Pratt Institute. I had, a man named Allen as my thesis advisor. And at that time, I was still in that making mode, and he knew that. And he said, we're giving you a theoretical thesis. Figure it out, but you're not making a thing.
00;17;40;00 - 00;18;08;02
Speaker 2
Wow. And I was just like, okay, here goes, you know? And I thought, like, okay, delved into my brain like, what would I want to do? What would I want to kind of say? And I realized, you know, every designer, every design firm has a process, right? And this idea of altruism, it's there's no word for not altruism, but the idea of of helping something, someone along the way can kind of take different shapes wherever you like, depending on where in the process you're injecting it.
00;18;08;02 - 00;18;40;22
Speaker 2
You know. But I always thought, like making furniture better, making furniture simpler, more elegant. then there's a, I don't know, there's, there's solace in, in in softness, for instance, you know, if you go back to the international style, okay, post-World War two, the Eames and everyone, you know, they created a sense of comfort and belonging and safety through their furniture, the chaos that we're living through now, the uncertainties we're living through now, we want that softness.
00;18;40;22 - 00;18;56;09
Speaker 2
We want that shelter. We want to come home and just feel right. We want to go to the office and feel right. So that reductive kind of quality, it's always like, what don't we need? What can we eliminate? Pure form, I think is something that humans respond to, whether they know it or not. You know.
00;18;56;09 - 00;18;57;08
Speaker 1
Whether they know it or not. Yeah.
00;18;57;14 - 00;19;04;14
Speaker 2
You know, if you go into a space that's a upholstered box versus one that has some softness to it, there's a difference. It it affects you in a very unique way.
00;19;04;14 - 00;19;10;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, this is this is the neuro-aesthetic conversation that's coming up and various other cognitive understandings that we have.
00;19;10;21 - 00;19;17;26
Speaker 2
And you've had conversations with Suchi Reddy and they're all speaking, you know, to the same kind of points. We're just doing it with different things in different ways. So it's fascinating.
00;19;17;28 - 00;19;42;09
Speaker 1
It totally is. this is a pretty hard pivot, into the second to last question, which is you teach, at the University of Pennsylvania. Yes. Which is a pretty renowned school, especially where the Wharton School is, which is the business school, the hard core economics, hard core business. But there's a, joint program, which is integrated product design program, which bridges the schools of architecture, design and Wharton Business School.
00;19;42;15 - 00;20;01;28
Speaker 1
You've been teaching there for a while. many listeners might know that I'm an MBA from, you know, with a school in, in Europe that has a partnership with Wharton, actually. So I know this well, and I find that there is a real limitation on the conversation of business within design curriculum. And there's definitely a full absence of design within the business school curriculum.
00;20;02;03 - 00;20;20;29
Speaker 1
That is fundamental. and iF Design, who presents you know, Future of XYZ just launched an academy also trying to bridge this gap. How do you see the next generation coming up? And is this program unique or like how do you train not fast furniture thinking, not fast anything thinking into the designer mindset?
00;20;21;02 - 00;20;41;22
Speaker 2
Yeah. So so I got a master's degree at Pratt and and more than anything, it was about how to see differently, how to see in a very unique way how to know the difference between a millimeter quarter inch and one degree and angle, you know, so it was very, visually focused and so which is extremely important when we have that, you know, functionalism versus stylized, conversation.
00;20;41;25 - 00;21;04;08
Speaker 2
When I started my practice, I realized very early on, as I got into the contract market, that's not everything we need to solve problems. We need to find the market opportunities. So basically when when I had the opportunity to create a class, with, with a friend and colleague of mine, Michael Avery, we co-teach it. We created the course based on my understanding of what designers coming into the field might need.
00;21;04;10 - 00;21;24;09
Speaker 2
So I right away I make I make them study brands because you're not designing for yourself. You're designing for a brand and their market and their needs. Right. on top of that, you're designing for, specific materials and processes, etc.. but but you have to look at the market and you have to say what's not there.
00;21;24;12 - 00;21;48;14
Speaker 2
You know, and, and they, they learn that through just observation and then, and then brand studies and then small sketches and exercises and then by the end of it, they have this product that solves a real need in the market. And it's so important for, for the world of education to kind of bridge design and business, because I use design as a business tool.
00;21;48;16 - 00;22;04;10
Speaker 2
That is what I do first. Interesting. it's a craft, it's an art. It's a, you know, a form of sculpture. But more than anything, it needs to be a business tool because you need companies to hire you for a very specific reason. And most of them have very specific needs.
00;22;04;11 - 00;22;27;12
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. it's a lesson for all, all of our listeners and viewers who are in the design space where I call also the business space. Like, what's the real need? Yeah. okay. Last question I ask always my my guests, the first and last question of the same. what is your greatest hope for the future of fast, not fast furniture, I should say, in we always say 25 ish years.
00;22;27;12 - 00;22;29;18
Speaker 1
So that's 2050.
00;22;29;20 - 00;22;32;29
Speaker 2
What is my hope? What is my my my big dreams.
00;22;32;29 - 00;22;33;19
Speaker 1
Your big dreams?
00;22;33;19 - 00;22;58;28
Speaker 2
No. I think we have to, continue to acknowledge that, we can't continue to simply do the same thing over and over again. You know, this industry has done amazingly well in, recreating what the office could be, what recreating what education can be. Right? interior design firms, architecture firms. They're on such an amazing trajectory.
00;22;59;05 - 00;23;19;10
Speaker 2
And I think we just have to carry that on and kind of, teach younger designers coming up that it's not about an Instagram like, you know, it's about, a need. You know, I always talk about, like, wants and needs, right? You could design something somebody wants, but let's say there's a thousand chairs somebody wants. You design something that somebody needs.
00;23;19;16 - 00;23;46;03
Speaker 2
There's not a thousand of those. You know, if you're designing the right product, there's no other option. And so I think it's, it's we're on that trajectory. We're on the right path. I think materiality locality. I think, those those are all extremely important. Reeducating about craft, you know, a lot of factories, let's say in North Carolina, you can't find an upholster or a cutter or a pattern maker, under 40, 50 years old these days, you know.
00;23;46;03 - 00;23;49;18
Speaker 2
So, yeah. And education back into
00;23;49;18 - 00;23;51;20
Speaker 1
Luxury sector in Europe has had to do as well.
00;23;51;22 - 00;24;08;17
Speaker 2
Right. Absolutely. I think we need to do I think companies need to be, take on that role, you know, because if they don't, it's going to disappear. but, I'm very hopeful, and I, I'm, I think coming to a show like this at neocon, you know, you see that people are trying people are really putting, putting their brains into it.
00;24;08;17 - 00;24;08;29
Speaker 2
You know.
00;24;09;06 - 00;24;11;02
Speaker 1
I love that, putting some muscle into it.
00;24;11;02 - 00;24;12;07
Speaker 2
Putting muscle into it.
00;24;12;09 - 00;24;26;08
Speaker 1
Brad Ascalon, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Future of XYZ. I it's it's remarkable that we've just done it, with your voice cracking and my and my and my nervousness of being live. So, thank you, it’s been a blast.
00;24;26;11 - 00;24;28;13
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. All right.
00;24;28;15 - 00;24;49;05
Speaker 1
And, Rob Schultz, I just have to give a shout out, Surround podcast, producing for us live today. thank you to all of our listeners and viewers, both in person and who are online. when this, releases, and I will see you again in two weeks with the next, not live episode. So thank you.
00;24;49;08 - 00;24;50;28
Speaker 2
Thank you guys.