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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Matt: Mark Szymanski, welcome
back to the WP minute.
Mark: Matt Medeiros, always
a pleasure, my friend.
Thanks so much.
Matt: You rushed home
from the grocery store.
Your wife sent you out, said, go
get some damn food for the house.
It's Friday.
We've eaten everything.
Go get it.
I text you.
I'm like, Hey man, you
want to record some stuff?
You know, I'll be home in 20 minutes.
Did you leave the eggs back at the store?
Mark: I, I should double check.
I should double check on
the, on the, on the items.
Yeah.
But,
Matt: You know, I walked into it.
Mark: I'd rather be
Matt: grocery.
Yeah.
I walked into a grocery store the other
day and I was just like, I know this
is probably going to come up, sound
kind of weird, but like, I, I have my
groceries delivered because I walked in.
I'm like, I'm going to be
here for an hour and a half.
Okay.
I just want it door dashed.
I don't actually use door dash.
I use the stores like built in
service, but I'm just like, I, I just
can't get out of that mode anymore.
I know I'm spending 15 percent more, but
I don't want to be in the store doing it.
Mark: Time is valuable.
It's not just, it's not just in that,
it's in WordPress, it's in building
stuff, it's in whatever, it's in life.
Time is very valuable, and if you can
make more money, then you can, you know,
you can just deploy in different ways,
and sometimes it can buy you back time.
Matt: Mm hmm.
That's what I feel anyway.
Anyway, what are we going
to talk about today?
We're going to talk about, we're going
to talk about WordPress content creation.
I think that's a fun topic.
There's a lot of folks coming up these
days, starting their, their Podcast or
YouTube channels, their newsletters.
and, you know, talking about it
from two perspectives, you've
been doing it now for a few years.
I've been doing it now for over 10 years.
and just talking about maybe the
way the, the lay of the land and,
what's working, what's not, at least
from our two perspectives and what
we want to see, from, you know,
other content creators that are out
there, like What are they doing?
How are they approaching this stuff?
And maybe we have some,
particular feedback.
for me at the WP minute, I'll just kick
off with one of the things that I've
been, pontificating about and really came
up with my friend, Corey, when we were
talking about, stress as an entrepreneur,
and Corey was also in the WordPress
still is, I mean, he still is a, an
owner stakeholder in, in post status,
but now he has a full time gig at a two.
this whole WordPress content thing,
especially for us old folks who've
been doing it now for over a decade.
it's challenging because what
I've found is one, Everybody has
a newsletter, which is great.
Like I love the fact that everyone's
publishing content and doing this thing.
but everyone has a newsletter,
everyone's doing their link sharing,
like, like I was doing at the
WP minute when it first started.
everyone's got a YouTube channel now,
or I think everyone's exploring the
idea of starting a YouTube channel.
I'd love for people to explore
more of the audio experience.
And maybe we can talk about that, in
a moment, but everyone's doing it.
And it's making it harder for
those of us who have been in the
space to retain the audience.
And especially the audience that I
serve, which is I call the fortune
5, 000 of WordPress because I think
there's only 5, 000 English speaking
people or 10, 000 English speaking
people across, the entire world,
maybe 5, 000 of them being in the, U.
S.
or U.
K.
area, and, it's becoming real
challenging because there's just
a lot more options for people.
And maybe people are burned
out at the same time of, like,
tuning in to WordPress content.
and you have an interesting perspective
because you have your Your thing and
your YouTube channel your newsletter,
and you're doing it much more from like
hey, I'm learning wordpress I'm trying
to make a living with this stuff and
learning the fun cool stuff with wordpress
So it's still kind of exciting to you.
I think not to put words in your mouth
Mark: yeah.
Yeah, I mean, a lot, a lot of
different things there, obviously.
We'll dive into each of them.
I mean, I think that, you know, First,
yeah, I think the things that I've
seen again is I've talked about this
before we've talked about it but just
the difference in like like you said
earlier the the level of experience and
Like I'm probably learning things you
probably like watch me like learn things.
You're like up I know
exactly where this is going.
I know exactly what he's gonna think
next You know, he's gonna run into this
because he's learning XYZ and then the
next thing is, you know I learned this
back when whenever right like I you know
in Like in the in the come up days of
whatever but I think the landscape has
changed You In WordPress, from what I've
seen historically, been a little bit
personal, like, had personal experience
with, and then also, you know, like,
things that you've talked about, things
that I've heard, things that I've just,
you know, discovering the history of it.
I think definitely a lot has changed,
and I think we're in a real interesting
time now where, again, we talk about
it all the time, there's like, other
things out there, there's other options.
which that's a separate topic in
and of itself, but it does play
into the idea of like, okay, well,
there's a ton more content now.
It's always going to be like this too.
There's just going to be more
and more YouTube content.
There's going to be
more and more whatever.
And it's important to kind of like, you
know, you got to somehow differentiate,
which just gets more tough as
things get more saturated, as these
channels get more saturated and such.
And then the only other thing that I
was thinking about just from the, from
the initial, you know, Overview you gave
there is I think I've said this before
In a world that's becoming more and more
artificial It's more important than ever
to become become like as authentic as
possible And that is there's a couple
ways that I sliced that but one of the
ways is specifically that everything
that I've seen in this community and
elsewhere is Everybody is like going
back to like having the personal branding
aspect of a lot of things And that's
one thing that i've leaned into and I
think people connect with other people
They connect with brands too, you know
in communities as well for certain but
like it's like There's just something
about that that i've that i've taken
into consideration So if you are going to
start, you know, if you're out there and
you're listening you want to start making
content I would at first I would just
recommend just doing it under yourself
Like just say you don't need to you
don't need to over complicate that part.
Just like be like hey You I'm so and
so, I work with this stuff, here's what
I'm doing, here's what I'm interested
in, and people will ultimately start to
find you, because that's the one good
thing about the space we're in now.
The algorithms are pretty good.
Like, I mean, if you put out, like, half
decent stuff about, like, a specific
topic, they will recommend that to people.
Not overnight, but it will happen.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I was going back in, the archives
of when I started my YouTube and yeah,
you know, the, the big picture thinking
that I have in my head right now is
these tools, like right now we're
recording on StreamYard, you know, and
then I'll edit in Descript and then
I'll, I'll, I'll probably live stream
this, from the, from the WP minute
podcast channel, not the WP minute
tutorial channel, which are two distinct,
YouTube channels for various reasons.
So the tools are just getting better,
easier, faster, you know, and like
connecting up to these social networks.
There's so much opportunity in
like repurposing content where I
was looking back at my original
YouTube videos that I started from
my studio, you know, 11 years ago.
And, Like my first video was recording
a review of gravity forms, you know,
which I work at full time these days.
So it's, it's kind of funny
how that came full circle.
But back then I was trying to do
it full, you know, air quotes,
full high quality production.
You know, we had a, we had a whole studio.
We had, we were a photo studio
and a web studio at the same time.
So we did a lot of video
and photo back then.
And, I remember.
You're recording it with a Nikon
DSLR camera, and I could only get
15 minutes on an SD card, right?
Like, that's, that's as long as
I could record because that's
as big as the SD cards were.
And then I had to, like, import all of
that data into a laptop, which could
barely handle it, because these things
were just not, like, you needed a 10,
000 computer, literally, back then,
to edit those videos, where now, You
can do it on your iPhone right now.
I have like 8, 000 worth of Sony equipment
sitting back in my home office and I'm
using my iPhone right now as the camera.
It drives me nuts that I've spent so
much money, you know, for, you know, an
effect that is not dramatically different
compared to like what I can do with
this, you know, 1, 000 iPhone camera.
Also laughable, but, you know,
the world has changed in content
creation and it's great that.
Lots of people can get into it.
my biggest criticism, I don't
have a direct question here,
but I love your thoughts on it.
My biggest criticism has always been,
I want people to get started, but I
don't want people giving up, right?
Like I want people to at least do it for
a year, like at least commit yourself
to a year because at minimum, Like,
that's the only, only timeline that I
know of where you actually see traction.
I mean, unless you're just a
unicorn and you're putting out like
ridiculously, you know, ridiculous
hit after hit on your content.
but if you're just like, Hey, I'm
just trying to get this WordPress
YouTube channel thing going.
You got to give it like a year, man.
Like, I don't, I don't know
any other way to do it.
unless you're just a savvy SEO or, and
what happens is, is when people give
up, they it detracts like from like
that quality, like the tracks from
the rest of us, especially if it's,
if you're like being celebrated and
you're seeing this stuff come out.
I'm not saying like it's bad if
you, if you can't like proceed, but
I've seen people just like give it
a half ass attempt and then just
like ruin it for the rest of us.
Right.
And it's, it's that it's like
the 500 website builder who
doesn't care about the customer.
Right.
I've seen this happen time and time again.
yeah.
And that's not of interest to me, but I
don't know if you have any perspective
on like lack of trying or lack of
quality or like what your thoughts
are like what what do you think like
when you started like did you think
you're gonna is gonna take this long
or faster like what were your thoughts?
Mark: Yeah, so I don't
know a couple things there.
I think the first thing is that
I, I would never discourage people
from starting to do something.
and I, and it resonates
with me what you're saying.
Like you have to try, you have
to actually want to do this.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna
give a quick relation.
A lot of times like people ask
me how to get like more clients
or how to get more influence.
Like if I was, if I'm talking to like a
client building a website, like they'll
ask me for marketing advice, so to speak.
It's like, how do we get more clients?
And I'm like, Well,
how have I gotten more?
I know how you can get more clients.
You can do SEO, you can do pay
per click, you can do whatever.
But how do you actually get more clients?
Like, what are some
proven ways in my mind?
Well, one of the ways in my mind is
literally just start talking on the
internet about the things that you're
interested in and the things that
you are building up expertise in.
That is literally all I have
done, and that's what so
many other people have done.
Now, granted, there's There
are a lot of variables there.
There are like how experienced you are,
how comfortable you are in front of a
camera with a microphone in front of
you, how, how much experience you have
just doing that in the past in any,
you know, other facet of your life.
just like a litany of things there.
And those are the things that start
to really trip people up, I feel like.
Uh, but to go back to what you're,
you're kind of saying there is,
yeah, I would, I think that if I'm
telling somebody to get into content,
specifically like WordPress content.
You're probably gonna make an impact.
Like, if I could give the playbook for
what I did, like, and I'm not saying
I'm, I'm big by any means, but like,
I've, I've gained a little bit of
track and people know, like, I've know
people now, like, and stuff like that.
And like, I make content and people,
I guess, appreciate it to some degree.
Like, all I've done is just talk
about the things that I was doing.
Some of the things that I found out
how to do tips and tricks here and
there and then I started Exploring and
learning wordpress and I was just kind
of documenting honestly It's kind of
the way that i've always thought about
just documenting my kind of my thought
processes Asking questions being curious
and people really start to appreciate
that because a lot of people have the
same questions And there's just a lot of
people out there that are not ever going
to be content creators so to speak because
that's just not what they want to do
like There's there's a more meta thing.
I don't know how deep you want to go
into it here You I think everyone, like,
could potentially start making content,
but the trouble is, like, I truly
believe that not everyone, not everyone
is a content creator, necessarily.
You know, like, that might just
not be the case for some people.
And not only that, maybe some
people are really good on video.
You know me, I literally hate to
read, so it's like, I'm not gonna
sit there and write a bunch of stuff,
I'd much rather just talk like this.
But other people are totally
different, and maybe they'd rather,
like, write a million words and never
want to get in front of a camera.
I don't know.
So there's just those
different types of things.
and I think that all of that kind of
plays into, again, back to the main
question of, you can start, but sometimes
you might not be starting in the thing
that's best for you to continue with.
And maybe you're just starting because,
oh man, YouTube is like the real big
thing right now, which is objectively
kind of true in certain ways.
But if you're not built for video and you
don't want to get better at video and you
try to get better at video and it's not
working, then maybe it's just not for you.
That's not your tool to leverage.
Maybe it is blogging, or maybe it is
podcasting, or something else, right?
I mean, again, I hate video editing.
None of my videos, barely any
of them get edited, right?
So it's like, it's, it's, a lot
of it is introspective, though.
But at the same time, I do think
anyone could be successful.
Just, they gotta find, you know,
where they're, where they're kind
of at with it, and what, what
makes the most sense for them.
So,
Matt: Do you think, do you, like time
wise, like where, where do you feel
like, did you have any, goal or what
was your perspective on, like how
long it would have taken you to get
to, you know, grow this audience that
you've, that you've accumulated so far?
Is it faster than you thought?
Shorter?
Like what, what, what,
what's your thoughts?
Mark: I would say, I would say
that it has gone better than I, I
would say it's going better than I
actually expected, probably slightly
worse than I like, quoted on myself.
Like I had like a random arbitrary
goal of like 10, 000 subs by the
end of the year or something.
I mean, I meant like for something.
But I'm not even saying that's
like the right metric to even
go by or anything like that.
Like there's so many
different things there.
If you're talking specifically
YouTube, there's a lot of stuff there.
I would say it's going better than
I actually expected because Of
the other things that I've done.
So if, I mean, again, if we're talking
playbook for content creators, you
have to be like a type of person that
wants to grow and, and is actually
curious about what you're talking
about before this WordPress, but I
was always involved in like WordPress,
but before I actually dove into this.
I was very scattered and I didn't
really like, I didn't have like a
niche or a community whatsoever.
And then when I started making content
about WordPress, it's like, okay, now they
know that Mark Szymanski is WordPress.
Or like, you know, like it has, you
know, those are, those are assimilated
to some sort of like, those are related.
Rather than Mark making random videos
about like business, finance, home
remote, like whatever the, whatever
the hell I was doing before, right?
So my, to, to, to like what I've done is,
You have to be on, if you want to do it,
at least one strategy is like very boots
on the ground, so to speak, like you're
making content and you're also like on
X, like following people and talking to
people and getting in a conversation.
You're potentially in the make
slack group, like doing stuff there.
You're in the WP minutes slack,
like talking to people there, like
you just have to make connections.
My mother used to always tell me, it's
all about who you know and you gotta
be networking, networking, networking.
Okay.
That's, it makes total sense now, but
it didn't make any sense when like you
don't have somewhere to network worth.
You can't network with 7 billion people.
You got to network with the
people that like are actually
going to move you forward and
help you and you can help them.
So that, I mean, I've just made so
many good connections and again, I
think that's a skill in and of itself.
You've got to be able to
build rapport with people.
You've got to be an actual
genuine, authentic person.
You can't be like a
slimy, you know, bastard.
Like you have to actually want
to, to, to help people as well as
like have other people help you.
So, I understand that that's like
not necessarily directly related
to making content, but it is like
a huge thing that's a part of it
because that's what making content is.
Like even connecting with your audience,
you know, if you're going to start a
community or offer a service or a product
to them, you have to understand them.
And we're humans.
We normally understand stuff by
communicating and observing and all that.
So I would say, again, to answer your
question with a long winded answer,
concisely, I would say that you have to,
it's gone a little bit faster because
I feel like I've kind of like, made
it go faster because of those efforts.
And if you don't do any of that, and
you're not connecting with anybody,
and you're just making videos, you
might see yourself being like, why
am I not getting more traction?
It's like, the people don't,
they can't connect with you.
Like, if they connect with you, then
they, they, they're going to care
more about the stuff you're saying.
Like, it's, it's human
nature, I feel like.
Matt: Yeah.
I have a cynical outlook on it.
Mark: I'd love to hear it.
Matt: like, it's, it's
a blessing and a curse.
The, the WordPress community, especially
for content creators, because you know,
on one hand, like outside of our world,
WordPress and they're just like, like
what, like what, what, what kind of
content could you possibly be creating?
And like, what kind of reach, what kind
of audience could you possibly have?
You know, if you went like full on,
just like web design in general, like
a general web design is, or a general
online e commerce person or drop ship
company like this, the, the audience
for WordPress is, is so small relative
to like other hot topics in the space.
Like generally like in the tech and
business stuff, not like pop culture,
but like in that, in those categories
that are like adjacent to us.
but.
Interior to WordPress people, there,
there is a lot of content being
made, for the WordPress crowd.
And I think from the audience perspective,
like looking for something new, right?
So like, and I'm not saying this is
what happened to you, but maybe part
of it is like, there's this of, Oh,
there's a new guy out there, a new
gal out there doing a YouTube channel.
Let me tune into them.
I just want something fresh and new.
I'm sick and tired of hearing from
like Matt Madaris in the WP minute.
Cause I've been listening
to him for 10 years.
I need something new.
and then there's like,
it's a weird formula.
It's a weird dynamic because
you come in and you're talking
bricks and that's popular.
So now it's like you have like this,
this, Popular like tool that you use
and and people are excited for it.
And then there's a fresh
new guy Demonstrating the
stuff and talking about it.
So then you get those like sweet spot
of you know a content rush And inside
that WordPress world, it's it's pretty
Competitive Kind of mean it in the in
the literal sense, but also like like
people are just like, okay, I've, I've
got my fill of Mark for the month.
Let me move on, you know, to, you know,
something else like, okay, he, I liked it.
He was for me, but just like if you look,
zoom out and you look at how you tune into
your favorite podcast or your favorite
shows produced by, you know, big names
or at least, you know, big, industries,
you don't listen to every single one.
Like I love the bill Burr podcast.
Love it.
I don't get every, I don't listen to
every single one, but it is, it is
still like, I still regard it as one of
my favorite podcasts to tune into and
it's just him talking into his phone.
It literally is what he does.
but I don't tune into
every single episode.
So it's, it's this weird thing that
happens inside of WordPress where all of
a sudden you can get like this meteoric
rise, air quotes, and then all of a sudden
it's like, wait, where did everybody go?
Like I'm on this plateau.
Like, how do I get to the next step?
And I think that's where we as
content creators have to be cautious
of that, because I've, I felt it.
I feel it every day.
It's like, man, I, I have
this YouTube channel.
If I just kept doing YouTube, it would
have been like five times, you know,
greater than, you Then this podcast and
blog that I've been doing, you know, this
traditional podcast and blog that I've
been doing, you know, so I've seen it sort
of like that, that content tilt, or that
audience tilt, like what they're tuning
into and like where the industry is going.
you know, again, I don't
have a direct thing there.
It's just a lot of thoughts
on like in that space.
We're lucky for the WordPress community,
but at the same time, it can, it can
make us hit a plateau pretty quick.
And we're like, where the hell
did everybody go and why aren't
they paying attention anymore?
Mark: Yeah.
Matt: If that makes
Mark: So no, it does.
I definitely have a couple things.
Okay.
So the first thing is like you're 100
accurate there too on the pieces that that
you added there Like for me again as my
case study goes Yeah, I did come in kind
of like with some bricks content, which
is like on the rise, you know Like as I
was coming in and everything like that,
so that definitely helped me I think
me being young definitely helps me to
some degree because again It's more just
like a fresh perspective on it as well.
Probably a little bit.
Out of the ordinary to some degree.
Like I said, I mean, I feel like i've
I've seen a lot of a lot of a lot of
wisdom in this in this community And
i'm like one of the younger dudes that
are just kind of like Learning and also
kind of providing some perspective.
So I do think that probably helped
and i've thought about what you're
saying here a ton when you're hot
you need to capitalize on it Like you
can't let you can't let the attention
or the views or whatever like kind
of You can't miss that opportunity.
And i've had this happen in
other like sequences of my, of my
past, like content creation stuff
outside of the WordPress thing.
It's just opportunities
though, is really what it is.
It's like, it's like hitting like a, a
viral video or like a viral topic per say
at the current time where it all lines up.
And I think if you have enough
of those, you know, you continue
to kind of like scale, I guess to
some degree, but you do have to
take advantage of that opportunity.
So I've already thought of like, well,
you know, Should I, should I start like
more of a community thing or should I
offer some sort of a service product
or something like that and you know,
it's just really, again though, you
have to listen to the people but I, but
I, but the thing I'll say is about the
plateauing, this is partially experience,
partially speculation or just a theory
here, is the thing that you can't do
as you go through that is you can't it.
We as content creators
are providing value.
There's no doubt about it, but it is very
like Intangible so it's like if there's a
way that we can provide something that is
more tangible and is like more impactful
and more valuable that is how the people
are gonna have a less likelihood of like
forgetting about you so to speak and
There's many different ways to do that.
The trouble is you just need
to like try them or try one and
see what sticks or whatever.
And that's kind of really
where I'm at right now.
But I'm like so observant of all the
other people that are in the space, like
doing it and like kind of what I see like
is working, what I think resonates with
me, what resonates with other people.
so again, going back to the playbook
thing, like that's, those are the
things I would be thinking about as I
would be like starting, create content,
watching to see how it's growing, seeing
what people are saying and then how
to kind of leverage some of that and
capitalize on some of those opportunities.
without being, my personal opinion,
like, just like, almost a sellout
per se, you know what I mean?
Like, you still, you still have to be
authentic, because that's the other way.
You could go too far with that.
With the opportunity capitalization and
you could just be doing things simply
for the money and then that could also
backfire the money or, you know, the
opportunity, whatever, whatever, X, Y, Z.
And then you could also backfire
because people will just be like,
at a certain point, like you could
have a million viewers on a YouTube
channel but have no community.
Like that's, like that's very possible.
So it really depends too on what you want.
You know, so the, you know, there's
a lot of nuance in this conversation,
but that's, that's what I've seen
from not just WordPress all over.
Matt: Yeah, I was thinking about that
actually this morning, or yesterday
when I saw, do you know Peter McKinnon?
He's a
Mark: Yeah, I don't watch them too
often, but yeah, I've seen them in the
Matt: So like when I was just like really
spending a lot more time and in YouTube
and getting more serious about it and
like doing more, you know, filmic stuff.
I was learning how to edit and whatnot.
He was somebody who's just
doing tutorials all the time.
Yeah.
I had some great tutorials on, when
I was using Adobe Premiere and I was
learning a lot from him, color grading,
editing, yada, yada, yada, transitions.
And it was fun and entertaining.
And then he started to, you
know, broaden, broaden out and
start doing more product reviews.
And I've fallen off.
And then I know he's doing like collabs
with Casey Neistat and other YouTubers.
And he really went from like sub, you
know, I don't know, sub 200, 000 to
over 7 million, you know, at this point.
but he literally has just become at,
for me anyway, in my perspective,
he has just become just another,
like, influencer brand person.
Lewis Howes is like the same,
it has the same effect on me.
Like I, I knew him personally.
I worked on WordPress websites
with him way back in the day.
but now it's just like, it's just a
brand to either like sell Canon cameras,
or his Peter McKinnon specifically
sell Canon cameras or, the Peter
McKinnon backpack, or I just saw him
launch like this new, like film holder
thing, like this high end premium,
like just traditional film holder case.
And it's just like, all right,
man, like I don't even see you
do any original content anymore.
Like you're not connecting
with the audience anymore.
Like you used to with
through your tutorials.
and he used to do like photo reviews.
Now it's just like you've
grown so big that people just
leverage you for that like brand.
And I don't think we'll ever
see anybody like that in the
WordPress space specifically.
you know, the, the closest one in like
web design web world that I can think
of is, is maybe Chris Doe from, the
future, in like his brand, but he's
still very much like, you know, leading
community and doing all that stuff.
So he's still very like, you know,
rolling up his sleeves and doing the work.
I don't think we'll ever
see that in WordPress.
However, I, you know, I don't mind
the wordpress creator, it's a bit
of a tangent, but I don't mind the
wordpress creator that does a brand
deal for the money, as long as you're
like transparent and you're up front
about it, and you actually, and you
actually like the product, right?
Mark: we got to talk about the money part.
Yeah, keep
Matt: Yeah.
Like, as long as you like, like the
product and you're not, you're not
selling something scammy or like
reviewing something scammy, but I don't
know, like if, you know, any other
like piece of software that you're
like, I'm right now I have screen
studio in front of me, which is a
recording app, on Mac for screencasts.
I only use it when I have like
a really short screencast that I
want to do, cause not the greatest,
like a long form editing tool.
However, like if they came to
me and We would we would love
to do a sponsored video for you.
I would do it And you know present it to
the audience because in my audience there
are other content creators out there,
so I would find it useful Descriptor
you know something like that something
tangentially related to the work that we
do You know so I don't mind if somebody
is going for the money as long as it's
honest You know truthful, and you believe
in whatever it is that you're promoting
Mark: Yeah, so, this goes back
to the thing where I was talking
about like having a brand versus
you're just running with your name.
So there's some relation there.
the, the, the beautiful part about
doing your name is because humans
connect with humans very, very easily.
I mean, you just, I'm creating videos
on my name and it's like, People look
at me and they, they can watch me.
They don't like hate anything
instinctually just like
about like what I'm doing.
Then, you know, it's,
it's a very boom, boom.
It's like, Oh, I know Mark.
Yeah.
I watch them all the time.
Like that's like, I watch Casey Neistat.
I watch, you know, it's like, it's
a very, very connecting thing.
The problem or the potential con with that
is if you, you only get one name, let's
change it, but you only get one name.
So you have to be very cognizant
of the integrity portion of that.
And certainly people make mistakes and
you, you know, certain mistakes you can
apologize for or whatever, or fix up.
But.
But my thing is regarding this, like,
I do agree with what you're saying, I
don't have a problem, I have affiliate
links, I'm doing sponsorships, I make
sure that I'm transparent as possible,
I think everybody should have like an
affiliate and sponsorship policy, like,
on their website or something, because
I think that's a really good way to
just be like, Hey, if you don't like
what I'm doing, I'm telling you every
single time, if you're like giving me
shit for it, just go over here and look
at this, and this is exactly what I
believe, and this is exactly who I take
money from, who I don't take money from.
and my policy on that.
So a lot of things that I've
seen, like really good ones
that I've kind of compiled and
I'm working on one for myself.
So like, those types of things
I think are really good.
and then to bring it into the money
conversation, we, we cannot be, you,
you, you gotta, like anybody that
criticizes this, you gotta be careful
being like, like extremely emotional
or holier than thou on any of these
arguments because this takes a lot
of time, regardless if you like the
content, you don't like the content,
where you stand on a content creator.
Thank you.
Most content takes a long time to produce.
Like, yeah, you could just put it
up and not edit it or whatever.
It's at least taking time, though.
Like, it's at least taking half
an hour, an hour, whatever.
If you edit, you do any post
production, pre planning, I mean,
that's a, that's a lot of work.
Like, it, it is not, if you're
thinking about getting into content,
it is not, like, an easy thing.
It's easier if you like it, if you're
interested in it, if you're curious in it.
But it's not, it's not, like, easy.
It's not like you just snap
your fingers and it's done.
It is a job.
So, what does that mean?
That either means you need to get paid
from the content directly somehow,
Sponsorships, affiliates, partnerships,
whatever, brand deals, which is all fine.
Again, as long as those other things are
taken care of transparency and all that.
But the other thing though, and
I'll cite like an Alex Hermosi.
Yeah, sure.
He like makes money possibly from the
content ad room or something like that.
But your other model is like, you're,
you're, the content is like, kind of
like a lead magnet to a certain degree.
But you have to make sure that the people
watching the content are the people that
are actually going to be your customers.
And it is, the reason this goes back
to WordPress is because it's kind
of like not the case a lot of times.
Because the stuff that I'm saying per
se, or the stuff like you're saying
Matt, is like, Okay, well we're
telling people how to use WordPress.
Now certainly some beginners might pick
that up, but a lot of developers and like
agency owners are going to pick it up.
And then it's like, they
watched it, that's great,
they love us, that's awesome.
How are we going to get money from them?
You know what I mean?
Like just as any, I, that was too,
too straight up of a way to say that,
but I'm saying like, it's not like
they're really our ideal customer
unless we have an offer for them.
If you're an agency owner, then
you need to be making content.
There's people that do this really
well, but there's, you need to be
making more content for like why you
need a website or that type of thing.
So you got to be cognizant of that.
I am definitely not a
poster child for that.
I'm in a different phase right now with
some of that stuff, but those are the meta
things of like, Making content, actually
taking the time to do it properly and
everything like that, and then making
money from it in one, two, you know,
way one, two, or three, or whatever.
so there's a lot of, a lot of
things to consider there as you
continue to go through that.
Matt: Yeah, you and I talked about this
stuff offline a lot about like, how, how
are you going to monetize your content
and you know, what are the advantages
of, you know, direct sponsorship like
I do versus affiliates versus the
membership stuff and product stuff.
I've tried them all.
I've tried them all literally.
And, the only one that I, I'm,
I'm effective at is the, is the
direct sponsorship sale, like going
in front of somebody and saying,
look, I'm My audience trusts me.
You can see my body of work over a decade
and if you want this kind of stuff to
continue and want your brand to align
your like your brand sentiment or synergy
to align with the stuff that I'm doing,
then this is why you should support me.
It's not, it's not your typical,
you know, pay per click play.
It's not, you know, am I going to make 1.
25 with every dollar that I spend
with Matt and the WP minute.
It is not that because the audience
isn't that, isn't that large and I do
want to talk about, you know, Why that's
good and why that's bad is because
you do have what's good because you
have that sort of editorial control.
you know, and it does keep that
integrity and that trust really
locked in with the audience.
the bad is like when you get in front
of, you know, a new web host, I won't
name names, but a lot of like up
and coming, you know, new web hosts
or, you know, knock on the door.
They want to do this thing, but they're
really in the mode of like growth and
how do we just get more customers?
So when I talk to them or any product,
does it have to be hosting like
plugins, themes, services, whatever,
like they're in this growth mode.
So they immediately just have like
this budget and they're like, all
right, we got 5, 000 to spend.
Like, how are we going to make 5, 500?
It's like, well, it's not
going to happen here, right?
This is, you know, supporting
independent journalism more.
Call it independent journalism,
public radio, like whatever
moniker you want to throw at it.
that's what this is.
because not many people, you know,
do the deep dive stuff, that I do.
Which, again, the other edge
of that sword is, eh, there's
not a huge audience for it.
It's a very, impactful audience.
It's a very important audience.
they're the decision makers in the,
in the community and other business
owners and who are also affecting,
influencing other, other folks.
but they're not like spending
their dollars per se.
because they're deep rooted or they
have their own solutions or, you know,
they're just, you know, already there.
They're a mature audience.
You're not, you're not giving them
or, or, or, or, Influencing them to
pick your thing because it's, you
know, bright and shiny and it's,
it's faster, cheaper, whatever.
you know, one of the things that I've,
I'm, I put in the footer of my, you know,
newsletter today is, which hasn't gone out
yet, is the fact, like, every, I feel like
every summer, you know, Always adjusting,
like every, I feel like summertime
for me is, is that adjustment level?
It's probably usually because, you
know, taking vacations more, spending
more time, you know, with the
kids, cause they're not in school.
So I start thinking about like,
where's this thing going and then
ramping up for like that seasonality
push, which is heading into whatever
fall holidays, yada, yada, yada.
And you're like getting yourself into
that reset mode of like, how am I
going to push when the summer ends
before the holidays hit so that I can
like make an impact on the business.
And, So anyway, like I'm thinking
about like restructuring.
And when I started the WP minute, the
idea was like, Oh, I just want to do short
form because everyone was doing long form.
And, you know, I just thought it as
a different market opportunity to
come out with something short form
and also give myself a break with air
quotes that a break to not have to do
so much heavy lifting of, of content.
and it just parlayed into like
this bigger thing, of course, but
now just like reevaluating that
and be like, you know what, this
deep dive into the community stuff.
the stress that I put on myself
every single week to come up with a
five minute monologue, which seems
like, Oh, it should be pretty easy.
And it is, it's easy when, when
there's a lot of stuff happening.
Like I joked with you, like
where the hell have you been?
Mark?
It's been a week.
You've been pretty quiet because there's
not a lot of stuff happening, right?
There's not a lot of things going on.
We talked about everything
already last week.
And this week was kind of slow.
and it usually is, in the summertime.
So that five minutes of like
pressure, to, I put on myself to
like, what am I going to talk about?
It's going to be super impactful
that other people don't talk about.
and then on the, on the flip side of
that is like, man, it's like such a
small audience that it almost feels
like I write all this stuff and I
pressure myself every week to do this.
Does anyone care?
Right.
Versus if I put out a WordPress 6.
6 video when WordPress 6.
6 hits and thousands and thousands
of people watch it and comments and
all the stuff and it made from like
the creator, like monkey brain.
I'm just like, Oh, that was, that
was way more satisfactory than, you
know, sitting there and like, Thinking
critical of like how Mullenweg should
reshape automatic, you know, and what
that means to, open source in the open
web when people are like, I don't, I
don't even want to think about that.
And they just like skip the article.
I was like, man, I've been like, this is
years of work that I just put into this
like five minutes and you don't, and you
don't care about it, but from the business
perspective, like I understand that
that is my, you know, that's my fault.
So anyway, going back to what's in the
newsletter today is me just saying, look.
It's maybe just like lifting this
weight off my shoulders and being
like, I'm not going to do that anymore.
Like, I'm still going to do it.
Eh, it's just not going to be every week.
Right?
And I, and I need to say it out
loud so that I'm okay with it.
And so I can be like, I said I didn't,
I'm not going to do it anymore.
and then technically it also means like,
I don't know what I'm technically going to
do with the five minute WP Minute podcast.
I might reroute it to the WP Minute Plus.
Thanks.
And rename, the whole podcast
altogether for, for just like branding
purposes, because what I really like
are these long form discussions.
And ultimately I think that's where
folks know me most is, you know, the
podcaster who's been here for a while
talking to, to people and I, and I'm,
I'm want to like lean back into that.
I think.
you know, cause you see these posts,
the best WordPress newsletters, the best
WordPress, you know, YouTube channels.
You're like, man, I've
been, I do all that.
Like why am I not on this list?
Right.
But then you look at the best podcast and
it's like, oh, it's Matterport WP minutes.
So it's just like, okay,
it's just this brand thing.
People just see me as a podcaster,
maybe not specifically a newsletter
as much as I try, you know,
to get that content out there.
So summer restructuring, notice
myself on that same plateau.
and saying to myself, all right, it's
time to shift gears because the real
money, which we were talking about is in
that generalized content for WordPress.
It's in the YouTube tutorials, it's
in the helpful content, and maybe
the over analytical stuff, should
be reserved for, you know, not so
often, like I still want to do it.
I don't want to give up on it, but I'm
just not going to pressure myself to
like do that every single time because.
Really, if I can make helpful content,
it's helping more wordpressers at the end
of the day, which is really what I want.
Like, I really want to help
people with this stuff, and maybe
the over critical stuff is just
too much for people to handle.
Mark: I mean, it's, I feel like it's
part of that conversation is just like
you said, how many people actually
care about those things per se?
Like what is your actual, you're not
going to get everyone, obviously, you're
not going to get like 7 billion people.
You're not going to even get all of
the people that use WordPress because
not all the people use WordPress
care about that type of thing.
So like, you know, and then you
just continue to break it down.
Like, and then even the
people that do care about it.
The stuff you're talking about, maybe
for whatever reason they don't like
you and I'm not picking on you, I'm
just saying maybe they don't like you,
maybe they don't like the content,
Matt: It's a well known
Mark: name or the name or something,
you know what I mean, it's like,
it's just, it's just marketing.
It's just like influence.
It's like, it's very, there's,
there's no, there's no, sometimes
there's no rhyme or reason to it.
You just kind of have to like
break it down to that point.
It's like, I do think though that early
people early on their content creation
journey might have that misconception.
It's important to learn that very
quickly that, You have to understand,
because I, I literally, I did this, and
I still do this kind of in the agency
realm, but in the, in the content side
of it, I'm like, okay, I want like
a million subscribers or whatever.
Like people say, oh, we want
to be like so and so, we want
to have a million subscribers.
Well, it's like, Depending on what
you're actually interested in, and
you know, somewhat qualified, so
to speak, to like talk about, that
might not literally be possible.
So, like depending on what you're
talking about, how deep you're talking
about, the nuances, there might just
not be a million people that give
a shit about what you're saying.
And the sooner you realize that, the
sooner you can lean in to actually
talking about what those people,
and you, you and those other maybe
thousand, couple hundred thousand,
whatever people care about, and then
that's like really kind of interesting.
where that can go because in my mind,
one of the things that I've seen is like,
if you think about the person, like an
individual, we'll just keep it as an
individual, like if you think about an
individual that's like classified as
like an influencer, obviously that term
is whatever, but like somebody that
speaks a content creator or somebody that
speaks online, if they say something, if
they're well known enough and they say
something, let's say they normally talk
about like business and they say something
about like relationships, relationships.
Right off the bat now, because you've
consumed so much content, even though
it's been in the business realm, if
they say something about relationships,
you're automatically going to have like
a higher, you're going to hold their
opinion to a higher standard because
of all the other stuff that you've
listened to over this other category.
So what, what I kind of have
deduced that is I used to try to be
really generalist about the stuff.
Like, I have really good opinions
about this topic and this rather,
rather random topic and this one.
Because I'm interested in I'm a human
and I'm like exploring every topic.
The trouble is then you can't find
anyone So if you niche down kind
of to a WordPress type thing, for
instance Then you, then you branch
back out as you grow, potentially.
I think that's a strategy that
I've seen have success for people.
And you don't even need it, Nick.
I'm not even saying you have to need
to branch back out, but I'm just
saying, like, that seems, you have
to build the rapport in a very siloed
way, it seems like, and then from
there you can continue to do it.
So, and again, I'm not saying this
is the only strategy, I'm just
saying this is stuff that I've seen.
But, But yeah, I mean, it's, but
again, going back to all of it, you
have to, you have to want to do it.
You have to, you have to
believe that it's a good idea.
You have to believe that you can do
it, and you always have to be ready
to like literally fail with every
single video or blog post or whatever.
Because there are some days where your
live stream, like, like a, a live stream.
I'm just doesn't get as many people
watching it for whatever reason.
And sometimes it's not even your
fault entirely, you know, it might
just be like a busy day or something.
So you, you can't be super
emotional about it either.
It's
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've, I've constantly, like, just as
a creator, you know, it's also my, the
same personality that I lead with when
I criticize like WordPress is like, I
don't know, it's just like the same way
that I lead things where my own content
creation, like, I don't want to be just
this one person doing just this one thing.
I am not good at that.
Like I'm good at consistency because
I haven't given up on WordPress.
Content creation for over a
decade what I'm not good at is
like the same thing over and over
and over again Which you know?
Jonathan From the tonic, you know had
mentioned something I think it was like
when the first time you were on his
live stream and you brought it up and
he was like Oh, you know, I've been you
know, Matt's been doing it for a while,
but I've been doing like consistently I
have like more episodes and he's right.
He probably has collectively, yeah, a
crazy amount of, of episodes, but that's
because number one, like I've, I never
did the same thing over and over and over
again because I just get tired of it.
And then I get in my head,
I'm like, if I'm tired of it,
other people are tired of it.
So I was never one to be like, I'm
just going to do this same format
over and over and over again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I want to creatively change things, which
is how like the Matt report evolved.
Like at beginning it was just like, I'm
going to talk to people cause I need to
look same thing, same exact thing as you.
I need to talk to people to learn what the
hell is happening in this WordPress space
because I see people getting big clients
and I want to get those big clients too.
I just don't know how they're doing it.
And I did that for like two
years to grow the agency.
And I was like, Oh, I've figured it out.
Like I figured out how
to make connections.
I figured out who the players are.
I know where the other agencies are.
And then it became more of like,
you know, when I was starting to
create products and, plugins and
themes and I was just, okay, now
I'm going to leverage it for that.
So let's build in public
with the, with the podcast.
And then after that, it was just like,
okay, how do I turn this into a community?
And I started the mat report pro,
which was, you know, a community like
you, like we know communities today.
and you know, still trying
to run an agency and like
talking about things like that.
And then it was like, Oh my God, I'm
having kids and now I need a real job.
so then it was just like, okay, like
I have to get, like, I have to like
change things up, you know, and,
and do all these different things.
So like I'm ever evolving this,
this content position that
I'm in and I'm okay with it.
And, you know, when I see like
other people doing well, sure.
Do I get, do I get jealous?
Like, you know, our friend, Paul Charlton,
150, 000 subscribers or whatever.
And I'm like, yeah, I mean,
I would love that too.
But then I look at what Paul's doing
and he's like, Only doing YouTube,
like as far as content, right?
I mean, maybe he has his blog and
newsletter and stuff like that, but
I don't even hear him talk about it.
I just see him showing up and doing
YouTube and that has worked for
him to like grow that audience.
And do I get jealous of it?
Yeah, of course I do.
As like a content
creator, I'm competitive.
And I'm like, I could do that too.
But would I have been satisfied
doing it all these years?
Probably not.
Cause I did hit a level of burnout when
I started my YouTube channel where I
didn't even open up my YouTube dashboard
for over a year cause I, same thing.
I was like, this sucks.
I don't want to do this.
And you know, let me just go back to
the podcast cause I love that more.
So anyway, this is evolution, of like my
content and competing with other people.
And you know, I'm sure
we all go through this.
I'm sure you go through it.
Like when you look at the
landscape to be like, God, I, yeah.
If I did this, could I be like them?
You know, and you just have to,
you know, find your own path.
Anything more systematic and I
would just, like, hate it, I think.
Mark: I mean and we go back to the
the opportunity thing, you know
when you're hot you get to take
advantage of that That's very real.
There's also I mean, I truly believe
that there's also like a level of
I don't know if luck is the right
word But there's definitely an
aspect of timing You know, right?
Like, because, like, depending on when
you started making, like, WordPress
content, I would say you in general,
like, depending on when somebody starts
making, like, WordPress content, like,
maybe there were more people that
were at you know, like, like flocking
to YouTube for that specific reason.
Maybe YouTube is still kind of trending
upward, but maybe there was like
a boom before to a certain degree.
There's also again, like you said
earlier, there's when there's less
saturation, there's less options.
And that's just that, that super
is a, super impactful there.
I mean, this is, this is one of the
reasons where like I think about WordPress
and I think about how, You know, you
try to like predict how it might change
or move forward, which is difficult.
But like, you know, the ad, the advent
of AI and such, those types of things,
like are they gonna have any impact?
That's why like, that's why I need to,
I need to at least hear about the topics
that are in their infancy, so to speak.
I don't necessarily wanna be an early
adopter of everything, but I need to
like have my finger on the pulse of
kind of like what's going on there.
So hopefully I can kind of like maybe.
feel it out as it starts to, you know,
take away and take traction and then
be like, like, that's, I think that's
literally how most, again, regardless
of what your goals are, you might have
different goals, but like, I think that's
how, like, take a ridiculous example of
like Jeff Bezos and Amazon, like they
were selling books, like, and he just, it
was just timing and it was how it went.
And then he was like, all right,
well, let's keep doing this.
And like, we're selling books
and we're selling other stuff.
And it's like, It, it just so happened
that there was no such thing as Amazon.
The internet was pop,
was about to pop off.
He kind of saw that.
He started selling literally
books and he's like, well, we
could sell other stuff too.
And then you just continue
to roll from there.
I know that was like a separate example,
but it's just, it's kind of the same
thing with this content because people
make content for a living, surely.
But there, there also
is other pieces to it.
I mean, you run the WP
minute, like it's a business.
It's not just content.
I mean, the content is a big part of it,
but it is, the content is one of the main
pieces, but there's a lot more to it.
you know, so I, I think it's just,
like you said, you have to observe what
other people are doing and kind of carve
your own, your own way through it too.
So,
Matt: Multiple, streams of revenue,
for sure are super important.
Again, that's why I just go
back to, to sponsorships.
I know there are people that do,
you know, great with memberships.
Membership's super tough.
It's its own challenge, right?
It's, it's the challenge of
like building the audience and
then selling the membership.
Even at the WP minute, if
you go to the WP minute.
com slash support, you can join as an
annual supporting member for 79 a year.
or if you donate, you can
also join, the slack channel.
And really it's just like your
pledge of 79 is to be like, Hey,
You know, really like what you do.
It'd be no different if
you were a business and you
wanted to sponsor a podcast.
It's sort of like an individual
sponsorship level to be like,
yeah, every year I'll give you 79
to support the cause of, you know,
this effort that you, that you have.
but you can also join the
Slack channel for five bucks.
and just one time.
you know, the running a membership
requires just so much more, focus and
energy, which as a full time employee
and part time content creator, there's
no way I can also run a membership
to, at least in my opinion, because
the best memberships that I've been a
part of are the ones where the person
who's running it is also a member.
Ultra engaged and there's ultra
value on the other end of that
membership in the beginning.
It's fun It's exciting.
You get to come in and network and see
what's behind the closed door but as
a consumer you're just like, okay, I
after month two you're like I did all
of it Like now what video game's over?
I beat the game.
Like what's the end game?
Like what what else can I do after this?
And I think to me at least that's what
goes on in my head, which is why running,
having been my second go at memberships
has been pretty tough because I just don't
have the time and the energy to, to focus
on what else I can do, you know, for that
membership, aside from, you know, we have
the Slack channel, a slot aside from,
you know, connecting with other folks.
Like, you know, if you're in the Slack
channel, there's people I've connected
other people to as, as value, you
know, and then doing like, you know,
I don't know, a couple weeks ago we
did like a little side chat, which is
actually something I want to do more
of for, the WP minute members is just
like, Hey, let's, as this group, as
this collective group right here who
love to talk about WordPress news, and
that's the focus, let's just all get
on a call and just talk about stuff
that's happening in the space and we
can all ask our each other questions
and, and get our opinions and whatnot.
anyway, all of that is to say is like
running a membership, you got to do
so much more, like to get that value.
yeah.
Courses in education, or I should say
courses, is something I haven't done yet.
Yet.
I do want to explore something
around that for the WP Minute.
I don't think it would be a charged
thing, or something I charge for.
It might be on like, the value for
value system, which is like, if you
value this work, then, you know, give
me five bucks or give me fifty bucks.
Like, whatever you find valuable for
this content, you know, you know.
Let's roll that way instead of just saying
like this course is a hundred dollars or
a thousand dollars like whatever it is.
so that is something I
have yet to explore though.
I do have some ideas for it for the WP
minute, but also still going to do the
roll up your sleeve and do the work.
Like you still got to make the thing
and, and have people enjoy it, right.
And, and market it and
keep that wheel going.
Cause otherwise no one sees it,
regardless of your audience size.
So, Definitely some challenges, but I
think a lot of folks who are exploring
the WordPress content creation space, You
know, can get some, can build a healthy
business off of multiple revenue streams.
Cause you're not going to
get it from YouTube ads.
Mark: true.
Matt: that's for sure.
You're going to, you need to get
considerably, more content than that,
or considerably more eyeballs than
that to make money on YouTube ads.
And in fact, in an episode that might
be out already by the time the listener
is hearing this, I interviewed Doc Pop,
who was a managing editor of Torque
Mag for WP Engine for like 10 years.
I thought it was 8, but it was 10 years.
And now he's an independent
WordPress content creator.
and And he just did a
partnership with WordPress.
com doing a highly produced series on the
Fediverse exploring what the Fediverse
is, what it means, how folks can connect
up to it, and all this other stuff.
There's plenty of opportunity in this
space, like WordPress product companies.
They need marketers.
They need content.
Do they have the budget for it is another
question, but they, they sorely need it.
and I think like you said at the top
of the show, the human connection
is what's going to win out.
And these brands need to work with
folks like you and I and others.
So it's a great time for us, but
also a competitive time for us.
Mark: Yeah, certainly.
I think.
Just going back there for a second.
Cause that's a, I think it's a really
important thing to understand if you're
getting into content, like what you
can do, like the ways that you can
leverage your, your influence, your
audience, things like that or whatever.
So obviously just making content,
you can get ad revenue straight
up via YouTube or whatever.
Maybe they could pay directly for
content, I guess, is one other way,
depending on how you want to slice it.
Talked about sponsorships.
We talked about, maybe
we brushed on affiliates.
So affiliate is like, you know,
you say something and you're not
getting paid to say it, but you're
getting paid when people buy it,
so to speak, is generally the way.
you get a commission.
we talked about courses there.
We talked about memberships, which
was like a, Community based approach
membership to be in a part of a community.
consulting is another one that
I've seen, whether it's private
like one on one or like group
consulting or something like that.
I'm just saying like, as you build up, and
these are all things that I've considered
and I've partially built out some of them.
Right.
So it's like, and I know
you've tried a ton of them.
So like those are at least five,
they're different ways that whatever one
resonates with you, all of them, whatever.
But again, like you said, some of
them are way more intense than others.
Like a consulting call might just be.
More, more or less like
an hour of your time.
But a membership platform is like a ton
of time, you know, sponsorship as, as,
as we both know, like that could be a ton
of time, just making it happen initially.
and then, you know, after that, you gotta,
you gotta see what happens on that end.
are there any other
mechanisms that I'm missing?
Oh,
Matt: swag, t shirts, stuff like that.
you know, there's, you know, collectively,
like, as a content creator, if, if
you're doing Omnichannel, which is
what I do, which is audio, video,
newsletter, blog, social, you know, and
you actually have, like, five distinct,
you know, areas in that, because,
you know, as a podcasting purist.
A lot of people say, Oh, I have a
YouTube channel, which is also a podcast.
I get it.
But podcasting is really like audio
first medium, distributed on all
podcasts, you know, players, because
you're, it's two different ways that
people can experience that content.
so if you have a true like omni
channel thing, like now you, you have,
did I include newsletter in there?
now you have these areas that you
can stack, as an offering, right.
To other brands.
So.
What I'm saying is like, don't shortchange
yourself because brands could want
to get exposure, on your YouTube
channel, but maybe not on your podcast.
But maybe there are brands that
want to be on your podcast.
maybe there are brands that
only want newsletter, right?
So when you look at it and you zoom out
and you say, okay, as a content creator,
I have all of these areas of distribution.
Now, How do I fill those gaps or
how do I offer those as valuable
spots to, you know, my audience?
Mark: Yeah.
Matt: You know, so or my to my brands
Mark: package it up to
would be extremely vital.
I would say like the whole
packaging thing, you've
brought that up to me before.
I need to spend more time on that once
you kind of get to that, like whether
it be sponsorship specific or just
like literally it's like, it's like
creating your, it's like, a good analogy
is like when you're an agency and
you're creating your website care plan,
it's kind of like that type of thing.
But instead your, your customer isn't
a business that wants your service.
It's a business that wants, you know,
eyeballs and those types of things.
So it's just kind of creating your
offer, but it's for a different type of
client this time, basically a different
type of customer, which is tough at
first cause you don't really know
probably like at all, you know, it's,
I, I feel like it's a little bit more
I don't, it's definitely more foreign
for somebody like me that, that hasn't
like ever had to pitch anybody on,
Hey, I have people that watch my stuff.
You know, like, do you want those
people to know about your product?
It's, it's just a new frontier I feel
like for a lot of, a lot of people.
Matt: it's not something you're I Mean,
I I'm putting words in your mouth but
it's not something you're afraid of like
it's not something you're afraid to do
because I want to end of this topic here
is Something that I riffed on last week
or at I forget earlier this week You
Cause I've, I've been seeing it for years.
It's like the indie product maker,
plug in theme service, whatever
ebook where they're just like,
ah, I'm not a good salesperson.
I don't know what to do.
Like, I don't know how to
like do this marketing thing.
And then only to see them.
I know it's an unfortunate situation.
It sounds harsh.
where it's just like only to see them
like six months to a year later, be
like, oh, I can never do this thing.
Like I could never figure this thing out.
Like I could never make my business
work cause I'm not a good salesperson.
I'm not a good marketer.
Well, For me, it's like that first,
that first step is to observe, like
to stop thinking of marketing in like
this, in the WordPress space anyway.
Stop thinking of it in a numbers
game, which a lot of us like lean on.
We say, it's just a numbers game.
You just got to get out there.
Like when you're looking to
connect and build relationships,
don't look at it in numbers.
As a numbers game, zoom out and see
like whatever the 50 content creators
that there are in the WordPress space,
like who show up every week or every
month and do this thing and build your
like relationships with each and every
one of them in a very unique way.
Right.
Reach out, talk to me, talk to
Mark, figure out what it is that,
that, that we can do together to
promote your product or business.
If you're not going to do like the
whole content marketing thing yourself,
like if you can't do it, you have
to bring it to somebody like us.
I mean, if you're not going to hire
like a big agency, cause you probably
don't have the budget, but you can work
with an independent content creator.
Maybe there's opportunity there
in different ways, to like to
get your product out there.
And it drives me crazy when I see people
do that, and say things like, I'm not a
good salesperson, this is not working.
But I never hear from them.
Ever.
You know, and on a, pitch me your product.
Pitch it well.
Don't waste my time.
Right?
Give me a reason to interview
you or showcase your thing.
but, but, but reach out and, and have that
pitch at least on a one on one scenario.
Like you at least work on it that way, if
you're afraid to like sell to the masses.
Okay.
But one on one email connect
and, and make that pitch.
I've also seen the inverse of people
who think that they've got it all.
They've got it all together.
And then, you know, think that people are
just going to cover their product because.
They're a veteran product maker and
they've launched products before.
And then of course you should want
to, you know, partner with me because
I've launched a product before and
I, you know, I've had success and you
certainly want to cover my product again.
No, because now I know that you
know what you're doing and you have
the money you should be sponsoring.
At the very least, you should be
buying 79 bucks a year to be, to have
an account in the WP minutes slack.
So you can network with other
people and let them know that
you've launched the product.
So I've seen it like both sides, but
certainly like, The beginners, if you're
really struggling with that sales and
marketing thing, reach out to us content
creators and build a relationship.
You might not get a series of videos
from Mark, but maybe he'll talk about
you in a segment of his live stream or do
some other like creative, but you know,
at least try, I think, in my opinion,
Mark: Yeah, so I'm pretty
empathetic to, to that,
Matt: really, that's the first time
I've heard you be empathetic to
Mark: What?
What the fuck?
You haven't been listening
long enough, buddy.
I've definitely, I've
definitely shown empathy before.
but, I would say I'm empathetic
specifically to that because, The, the
part where the kind of the premise of
what you're saying there were like, people
are like, I can build a great product.
I'm a, basically what you're saying is I'm
a developer, but I'm not a salesperson.
I'm empathetic to that because
I have always tried to be like
the, the, the unicorn, like the
one person that does everything.
And I have started to realize
as I've talked to other people.
Made more connections and just tried
to do more things that like I am for
instance, not a designer I am not
really a developer per se even though
my mind's slightly more in that camp.
I do think like I have a Reasonable
skill level at like creating content
talking and critical thinking and like
strategizing a lot of the stuff so that
is where like I feel like my value is now
The key to this is that when somebody says
that they're not, they're not, they're
a developer and they're not a salesman,
they're not a marketing marketer, they
have to have that self awareness to be
like, okay, well I need to go find that.
And again, it's kind of the pot calling
the kettle black because I've done
this in the past, but I'm just saying
like, I'm echoing what you're saying.
Like you need to create that connection,
that partnership and go do that because
I mean, literally, it's just like, when
you look at it really objective, it's
like, you're actually spending a ton
of time, like, working on the product.
You can't really be expected to
fully market the thing as well.
You could, but the one thing I will say,
though, as a caveat to this, or just
like a little asterisk, is that A lot
of times what I see, the, the product
owners and developers that I've seen,
like, with their products, they know
their products very well, obviously.
They just, they're not, they're too,
they're, most of the time they're
developing and not creating the content.
But if you bring them onto a show, and
you have somebody that's curious, As
the content creator or whatever, we've
done this many times over on my channel.
And like, you know, we even do it
basically over on Maddie Eastwood's
channel and in the bridge builder series
to a certain degree, like we're just
basically asking questions and a lot of
times it's harder to create something
out of thin air and like create like
a big script for a video or whatever,
than it is just have a conversation
and people love the conversations.
So it's like, it's a
beautiful mix of all that.
And hopefully they get some awareness,
people in the audience, like.
the product resonates with them.
They learn something, maybe
they go try it, right?
And you could leverage that
a million different ways.
You could do affiliate links.
You could do a straight up
sponsorship for that type of thing.
like whatever it is, it's just,
there's whatever the arrangement
is, whatever the partnership is.
I understand empathetic to the
budget, especially at first.
if you're trying to get something off the
ground, it's difficult, to like deploy
funds into, you know, the marketing
side of stuff, but you, you gotta be.
like indie developers, some
of them do it like better.
Some of them do like, like
some of them do really well.
You have to, you have to at
least stand behind your product.
You know what I mean?
Like you have to at least be
very confident enough to go on a,
like a live stream or a video and
just talk about what you built.
You don't have to be an,
a crazy good marketer.
None of these CEOs of these big companies
are like incredibly great, fantastic
communicators, but they are there.
You know, you have to, somebody's
gotta be the face of your thing.
So.
yeah, I'm, I'm always about that.
Definitely hit me or Matt up if
you're ever interested in, if you're
listening or you know anybody or
whatever trying to do that type
of stuff, cause, you know, I think
it's, I think it's good for everyone.
Matt: You know, the, the thing I would
add, to that is there's not a lot of, so
like if you don't have a budget, what,
what I would really like to see, and this
will be my last soapbox moment here for
like defending the, the content creators.
Cause one of the most challenging
things is you spend time with somebody,
you promote their product and then
they're just like, see you later, bye.
And they don't even like.
Tweet out the episode or linkedin post
about like a show they're showing up
They don't do a blog post about it like
number one from a content marketing
perspective You're just missing a huge
opportunity to repurpose content that
somebody else produced for you Like even
the most basic of like a blog post would
be like hey I appeared on the WP minute
or I was on Mark Zmanski's livestream
like whatever it is like I mean, you
could, it's literally you talking.
You can download that clip or
that audio and make audiograms.
Like it's plenty of
freaking things you can do.
So it blows my mind that anybody
Mark: thing I gotta, I gotta stop
you there for a second though,
cause the one thing I would say
is like, just to get meta a little
bit, if you're not a marketer,
you're not going to think of that.
Like, so you have to be
like told to think of that.
You have to be almost like, like
it's second nature to you and I, but
to a lot of other people, it's not.
So like, I'm not, again, I'm, I'm,
I'm playing a little bit of devil's
advocate and just defend, you know,
you know, defending the other side
in a sense, because I do, but I do
completely agree with what you're saying.
I just think that that is, that's
like, that, that is like one Oh
one, but you have to know it.
You know what I mean?
If you're not like a marketing
mind, but keep going.
Yeah.
Sorry
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
true.
and then, you know, that, that could
be the issue, but, But I do know a lot
of people who are savvy marketers that
are doing the whole, like, content,
you know, marathon, track, on purpose
because they know how good it is
and, but they don't even share it.
or, you know, sharing it or, or, like,
if you have nothing to trade, like, if
it's like, ah, I don't have a lot of
money to spend on this, then definitely
do that, like, lead with that and say,
look, I, I would love to do like you
to do a video for me, don't have a lot
of budget and maybe I can give you a
few hundred dollars to do this or a
better affiliate link or something.
But I will definitely like tweet
it out five times for that week.
Every single day I'll make a different
tweet or a different reference to it.
I'll write a blog post about
it, put in my newsletter.
maybe I have a press page on my site
and I'll definitely link you there
so that, you know, try to like at
least do some of that, that stuff.
Because.
It's a great way, you know, to say thanks
and it is valuable, like it's valuable
for people who land on your website,
that want to learn more about you because
my God, I don't know how many times in
the WordPress world I go to a website
and like, who is behind this, like what
company, what the hell, who, I'm not
gonna, one, recommend you or two, how
would anybody ever buy anything from you?
if they don't even know about like who
you are and what you do, maybe I'm just
that kind of consumer that needs to do
like that background research first.
but blows my mind that so many
people just don't have, like don't
expose themselves to their customer.
you know, unless they have just an amazing
product and they don't need to, I guess.
but a lot of them are, are trying
to get this thing off the ground.
And it's just the perfect opportunity
to use that, to repurpose that content.
You know, to share more
about them, but I digress.
I get off that soapbox, right?
As a content creator.
Oh boy.
Great conversation today, Mark.
As always, where can
folks find you on the web?
Mark: Yeah, man, appreciate
you having me, man.
Thanks so much.
if you guys want to check out more
of my stuff, you just type in mjs.
bio.
You will see all my links to my
socials, my website, stuff like that.
yeah.
Pleasure being here, man.
so much.
Matt: The WPMinute.
com.
The WPMinute.
com slash subscribe, because you
know, hey, I do a newsletter.
It goes out to a few thousand
people, you know, it's a newsletter.
I'd like, I'd like to be on the top
newsletter, WordPress news, newsletters,
roundups on these blog posts that people
put out, get a, get it at the WP minute.
com slash subscribe.
And if you want to support the show
and join that slack channel for as
little as five bucks, the WP minute.
com slash support.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for reading.
Thanks for being there.