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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:00.130] - Chris Lefebvre
For us, it's about elevating standards and exceeding expectations. That is internally, and that's absolutely externally as we support our clients.
[00:00:13.680] - John Berry
Welcome to the Veteran Led podcast, where we talk with leaders who use their military experiences to develop great organizations and continue to serve their communities. Today's guest is President and CEO of ISI, Chris Lefebvre. Chris is also a Marine Corps Veteran. Welcome to the show, Chris.
[00:00:35.550] - Chris Lefebvre
Thanks, John. Thanks, John. It's great to be here. Thanks for the invite.
[00:00:40.620] - John Berry
Let's start off with the simple stuff.
[00:00:42.700] - Chris Lefebvre
Okay.
[00:00:43.620] - John Berry
What does ISI stand for? What does ISI do?
[00:00:48.320] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. ISI is an acronym short for ISI Professional Services. What ISI does, I mean, overarching, we're a consulting firm supporting the U.S. Federal government as what is known as a government contractor. To break it down, if anyone asked my wife what I do, she's not really able to say. At the end of the day, federal agencies--they've got limited resources to accomplish their missions. That's people, that's funding. So in ISI, it's not really what we do, it's how we do it. So we partner with these agencies. We build and maintain trust. We integrate subject matter expertise, and we get continuity of service across contracts, whether that is in engineering, whether that is in data analytics, across our full suite of services, we partner with different agencies to ensure that they're able to achieve their mission.
[00:01:41.230] - John Berry
Now, you are a Marine Corps Logistics Officer. Sounds like that plays a pretty big role in what you do today.
[00:01:47.130] - Chris Lefebvre
Interestingly, outside of the leadership component that the Marine Corps certainly leads the way with, the logistics aspect of it, not so much. Outside of a logistician, generally speaking, is going to be a Jack of all trades for me, master of none. But so it did absolutely enable me to come in and I think, take a broader, more holistic view of things and understanding the integration or the ripple effect of one action and how it can cascade either tactically, operationally, or strategically. But even my experience in the Marine Corps as a logistician, it was probably rarely what people would think of as a logistician. And that's just a result of operational tempo at the time of multiple deployments having pretty broad roles. And so although I was a formerly a logistician, to what degree I was doing logistics planning or supply chain--it never really existed.
[00:02:50.420] - John Berry
That's a great point. I think for a lot of us that were deployed, we thought we were going to be doing one thing, and then maybe we ended up doing something else. And of course, it is the needs of the military that dictated it. So let me take you back into just a broader picture. For Veterans, considering going into the GovCon space, what do they need to think about?
[00:03:09.080] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. Well, I'll take a step back. I know you had other members, one on the Veteran Led podcast here talking about the importance to criticality and the challenges of any transition, irrespective of industry, sector, etc. That's a key part of it. But listen, I think that all of our foundational military leadership, attributes, traits, training--it all translates directly. I think depending on the customer base of those within GovCon, and to keep it real high level, you've got DoD, and then federal civilian, and then the intelligence community as three really big, broad pools. If you're in government contract and supporting DoD or the industrial base there, it's very aligned. You understand the mission, the needs of the warfighter, probably more tactically than strategically or from an acquisition standpoint. But anybody coming into GovCon, whether you want to start your own business, whether you are coming in at any level of an organization of a government contractor, that toolkit that we all get irrespective of service. Man, is it a value add to any company. I think, and I've even heard you say, what value any company that's smart enough to go out and bring Veterans in? Probably one of the smartest decisions you can make because I think at a baseline, you know what you're getting.
[00:04:47.010] - Chris Lefebvre
For me as a Marine, and that's my experience, I know what I'm getting out of a Marine. It doesn't matter which rank when they come out. I generally know what I'm going to get. I always look at it, Man, it's a great price to start.
[00:05:00.580] - John Berry
It always starts with the people.
[00:05:02.100] - John Berry
Now, for those that say, I really want to get into this space. I know you gave me my first education in the space. I was like, Well, I don't understand what GovCon is. You broke it down very simply for me. But there are certain advantages and disadvantages as opposed to going right into the private sector and not having to deal with government contracts.
[00:05:19.990] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. Listen, it is--a government contracting is much like the military. There is a hierarchy. It is marred with red tape rules and regulations and evolving policy. I think from a business development capture standpoint, the sales cycle is so protractive and so long. It is so different from the commercial space, generally speaking. There are absolutely challenges there. I think that a lot of Veterans want an immediacy of results. It's really challenging in GovCon to have an immediacy of results, certainly on that front-end, developing new business, landing new business, for sure. I will tell you that we've got a lot of Veterans internal to ISI. One of the challenges that they bring up as they're interfacing as consultants with our clients who are all federal agencies, is that it does move at a different pace. There are restrictions and regulations and policies that enact and delay that immediacy. A lot of Veterans, I know that it's one of those obstacles they've got to face, understand, and be able to overcome in their own way that things are going to move at a little bit different pace. But that baseline mentality of operational excellence, continuous improvement, as long as those carry through and reverberate through everything that you're doing, man, you're set up for success.
[00:06:54.870] - Chris Lefebvre
But it is absolutely a challenge. It moves at a slower pace, and it's one of the major--It's not a detracter, again. It's just a shift in mindset.
[00:07:03.220] - John Berry
So what are the advantages?
[00:07:04.840] - Chris Lefebvre
I would say irrespective of whether you are DoD, FedCiv, the federal government is the largest procurer of things. That's products, that is services, And so from a job security standpoint, a demand and need standpoint, there's so much opportunity. Agencies are changing with all of the shifts and policies that I mentioned. It's a dynamic situation. But for the right individuals with the right mindset, it's an opportunity for success. We can come in as Veterans, we can make a near-immediate impact. And over that long haul, whether you are a business owner, a project manager, or getting ready to exit, the opportunity is significant.
[00:07:49.800] - John Berry
We both have colleagues in the GovCon space. Not to embarrass you, but you recently won an award because you helped a person new to the GovCon space save over $4 million. And just bird's-eye view, what was the problem that you solved?
[00:08:05.640] - Chris Lefebvre
Well, when I first took over ISI, I knew nothing. Hard stop, period. I knew nothing. At least I felt that way. But I certainly didn't understand GovCon. I didn't understand the industry, the sector that I was in. And so I had a steep, steep learning curve. And so what did I do? I dove in headfirst, and I learned trial by error, really trying to make myself an expert on apposition regulations, what matters, what doesn't, and as I frame to my team, what must I do, what should I do, and what can I not do? In this setting, a colleague that we both know had just won her first federal contract award, which is a great thing, but I could see on her face that it was marred with angst and uncertainty. I just simply asked why, and she was responding back to this contracting officer. In the response, I saw some misalignment. I just quickly went in and referenced a different acquisition regulations for her to be able to point out and show some clarity to her new client. In that, it helped support her from a timeliness standpoint, be able to bring something to action much faster, and in that, there was significant things.
[00:09:26.570] - John Berry
Yeah, and it's always there, that opportunity to be a hero to someone. You've been known as that person who seeks to help other people and give great advice. In saying that, from your experience, where have you seen the most growth in government contracting? And once again, from your experience.
[00:09:45.950] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. In my experience, well, ISI has grown significantly, and that is in terms of number of contracts, revenue, employee-based, diversity of our contracts. But what I would say, the success piece, yes, you need to be innovative. Yes, you need to have continuous improvement across all things. But for us, it's not about that growth or that expansion. It's keeping it simple. It's back to the basics. For ISI, what has enabled our growth is really this idea of partner. We partner with our clients. Yes, we are a consultant. Yes, they are a client, but it's not the approach internal to ISI, in my experience and culturally, how we do what we do. That's not our secret sauce. Our secret sauce is the golden rule. Treat people how you would want to be treated. Whether you are a client, an employee, a partner of ours. It's all in one family. And that is real. It filters and flows through our entire organization. And when you do that, it allows you to land. And maybe it's a discrete opportunity. But there is no better way to grow, to expand, whether that's in-depth of support or breadth of support.
[00:11:09.500] - Chris Lefebvre
If you are a partner, if you are aligned, and your interests are in that client's mission, in your partner's mission--for us, at least since I took over ISI in 2012, so in that last 12 years, it's enabled us to grow internally, to mature internally, and really be able to grow from, again, a revenue customer base standpoint.
[00:11:34.480] - John Berry
Yeah, I think as a company that has worked with a lot of vendors, worked with a lot of consultants, the difference is in those that actually want to collaborate and want to help you succeed. We always want to get that vendor or that consultant. We say this is a player on our bench. This is part of our team, as opposed to the view of, well, we're hiring them to do this service. We got to hold them accountable. This is one more thing we got to manage. We really see it as we want long term relationship with someone who's going to be part of our team, but that also sets standards really high, because now it's like, Well, you may be over here, and that may be the standard of your organization, but if you come work with us, you're part of our team during this. No different than, say, maybe you had when you were in the Marines, maybe you had some Army guys attached to your Air Force. It's like, okay, well, now you're part of my team and this is the standard. Those that will accept that and work with us, that's great.
[00:12:26.110] - John Berry
But those that don't say, well, I'm just here to provide this service, it's usually a short term transactional contract and never becomes transformational.
[00:12:34.250] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. Yes, it all counts. I will say, though, that it's a challenge and a balance, and it goes back to one of your earlier questions about GovCon, is that's the intent, right? I mean, we want to hire ISI employees that want ISI to be their forever home. That's a real challenge, right? Generationally, that's a challenge, right? We've got younger folks coming into the workforce that that doesn't necessarily align with. They like change. They like to have broader exposure and experience. And that's just not in what they're doing, but who they're doing it with, organizationally. And so, yes, that's a challenge. Also in the GovCon space, you're typically supporting these clients within a set duration or period of performance. That could be really short term and tactical or limits of 5 to 10 years. It's hard to, in one breath, say, "We want this to be your forever home, be a part of this team in perpetuity to be enduring." And yet you're going to be in supporting a contract that has a shelf life. It's a real challenge. We're organizationally, to your point here, is that, how do you know your people? What are their hopes?
[00:13:50.090] - Chris Lefebvre
What are their dreams, their aspirations? How do they want to grow and learn more broadly in terms of what they do, their subject matter expertise, but also within the organization? We are investing a lot of time and resources internally to start to curate and draw up those career roadmaps through training, continuous learning, integration on other teams. When you do that, those investments, not just the financial ones, but in the people's, the humans, man, it reached significant rewards to the individual as well as to the organization. I will tell you, it's a challenge. Yes, that is what we want. We want to be able to wrap our arms around everybody that we have that comes in and aligns with our culture and company and right off into the sunset. But in the GovCon space, even if everything aligns, it doesn't always work that way because there are budgets and policies and shifts in priorities and needs in these agencies that sometimes pull these contracts away.
[00:14:55.400] - John Berry
Is there one thing you can pinpoint that you look back on and say, I wish I would have known this one thing about GovCon when I started?
[00:15:04.270] - Chris Lefebvre
Proof. So much. As I mentioned, I knew nothing. But looking back in the early days, I would have said to...I wish that I would have known how to better assess the legitimacy of an opportunity. In that, that is teaming partnerships, that is relationships of individual employees, and that's opportunities with the clients. I look back and because I was so hungry to learn and succeed, I wasted so much time chasing so much in the early days that never amounted to anything. Now, hindsight, I'm glad I did it because I was able to learn it. But if I would have known then what I know now in terms of qualifying an opportunity, qualifying a relationship, I would have been much more effective and efficient in being able to validate what we as a company went after.
[00:16:07.280] - John Berry
With that hindsight, if you were going to advise someone who was looking into going into the GovCon space, what would be some of the first steps you would advise them to take?
[00:16:17.860] - Chris Lefebvre
Plan. Have a plan. Have a strategic plan. Depending on your stage of the business life cycle--listen, that strategic plan could be three, five years. It could stretch reach out beyond that. Then you've got to distill that strategic planning into an operational plan and then a tactical plan. With that, you can start to assess your goals. What do you really want to achieve for you individually in GovCon as a business owner, business leader? But then more broadly, what do you want the organization to be? Looking back at my younger self, I also remember hearing somebody ask me, "What do you want ISI to be in the early days?" In my head, the visualization was logo on the side of a big building, and it's all ours. That was the growth, that was the success. My perspective in that has shifted so significantly. It's understanding what is the plan, what are your goals, and coming back to them regularly to evaluate if they still hold true. Are you meeting? Are you exceeding? Are you falling short? If why? And then at the end of the day, you've got to bring your team into all of this planning.
[00:17:35.930] - Chris Lefebvre
They've got to understand, one, as the leader, what is your vision? What do you want? Where do you hope to be? What's the desire to end state? But then they've got to buy in. They've got to be the champions. They have to collaborate on those strategic, operational, and tactical plans, much like in the military. If you try to do all things yourself, you are destined to be.
[00:17:56.710] - John Berry
Absolutely. So let me take you back to your transition from the Marine Corps into the private sector. What was that initial experience like?
[00:18:07.720] - Chris Lefebvre
The initial experience was exciting. It was something new for me. I thought, as I approach transitioning out of the Marine Corps, that I would have made a career out of it. However, given the operational tempo leading up to my final years in the Marine Corps, and then even my last duty station, it really set the stage for me to assess, "Was it right for me?" For me, I think ultimately the reason to exit the Marine Corps was I wanted to impact an organization, and I wasn't going to be able to do that in the Marine Corps, at least not in the near-term, mid-term.
[00:18:49.960] - John Berry
Not as a captain, right?
[00:18:51.970] - Chris Lefebvre
Certainly not as a captain. The frustrations that I had at the time is, and this goes across service, but it's not a meritocracy. To some degree, you are going what you're going to make to the day, almost, the rank that you're going to be, no matter how good that you are and the results that you drive. I wanted to have, hopefully, shape and have a little bit more control of that. That's what prompted me in my last duty station. I was in DC, and so I had a new perspective. I got to meet and form some really good relationships and bonds within the private sector. It prompted me to go. Once I took that step, a whole new world was open to me. At the end of the day, it was like I was a brand new second lieutenant all over again. I was in an industry, I was in a sector that I knew absolutely nothing about. I was working with colleagues that had been in this space doing this work for decades. Here I was showing up as a manager with very, very little insider perspective. There was a lot of anxiety, but for me, it was exciting because at the end of the day, I was going to be able to bet on myself to learn and to perform and to try to look to where I can deliver value in every single opportunity.
[00:20:10.480] - John Berry
Now, in the military, we have officer professional development and very well-defined career paths. How did you find your career path and your development after you left the military?
[00:20:21.570] - Chris Lefebvre
I didn't have one. Let's call it dumb luck to some degree, and I believe some of it was me shaping opportunities. At the end of the day, what I think it all boils down to is personal relationships. I had a personal relationship with someone that asked me to come and take an interview with the company that I now own. It was just introductory. I was not looking for a job, and it went really well. It was interesting and exciting, but it was that relationship that presented the opportunity that I seized. Very much the same, once I did it, I came in and it had to be about the people. I had to learn. I had to know what it was that I was doing, what was expected of me. But I had no career path or goals set as to what I was going to be other than, I know I wanted to at least ascend to a place or a position, whether it was in this company or the next or the next, that I could impact organizationally. For whatever reason then, it was very important to me. I wanted to be able to make a big splash and a big impact on the people within an organization.
[00:21:33.630] - Chris Lefebvre
But at that time, there was some chatter early on about the potential of me being able to be part of a succession plan at ISI. We just happened to pull the trigger on that and execute it in a much more rapid fashion than we initially planned. But there wasn't early on any idea as to who I wanted to be or what I wanted to do. I was still figuring out as I went.
[00:21:58.660] - John Berry
Now, as the head of ISI, how do you find and create opportunity?
[00:22:03.300] - Chris Lefebvre
Like I said earlier, if you're trying to do everything yourself, you're going to fail. Where I and we are trying to create opportunity is, one, bringing folks within the organization up, expanding their aperture, giving them the opportunity and the tools to learn and grow. In any growth, you have to be able to scale And so ensuring that we are empowering folks throughout the entire organization to be able to deliver excellence. And yes, that is in professional growth, that is in training, that is in some personal growth. I mean, how to interact as a consultant with our clients in this respect. For many, it's unchartered territory. It certainly was for me. And so I think it's being able to, right now, how we are growing is being able to scale it. The secret sauce internal to ISI making it stronger and making it more pervasive throughout the organization, and ensuring that all understand it. In that, it generates the growth. Again, our growth is much more from a depth of service than an expansion. We're not running out making acquisitions right now to try to grow our service base or our solutions or even new customers.
[00:23:22.850] - Chris Lefebvre
For us, it's all about going really deep, and that aligns really well with that partnership mentality that I mentioned earlier.
[00:23:30.240] - John Berry
So what makes ISI different than other companies in the GovCon space?
[00:23:35.530] - Chris Lefebvre
Listen, I said it earlier in that it's not what we do, it's how we do it. I think that you can go on almost any government contractor's website and look at their services. They may be niche, right? I mean, within cyber or IT or broad general services like ISI. But these keywords, right, or these solutions are fairly generic. At the end of the day, what do we do in services and government contracting is we put people, and in our case, subject matter experts in place, integrated with our government clients to achieve their mission set. How do we do that? Yes, there's a big part of it that is going to market, finding top talent that are really good based on their experience. But then we also got to fit that top talent into the organization. Just because you're great at what you do doesn't mean you're going to be great at what you do at ISI. Our assessment of fit--down to the position, to the supervisor, to the team, to the client, to the organization--is critical. What makes us different? And ISI, it's our culture. We have gone through great lengths to understand that we can't define our culture, we can't lob it up and say, "This is what we want the culture to be."
[00:24:55.600] - Chris Lefebvre
The day-to-day embodiment of who we are, how we operate is our culture. And we have asked, in the last couple of years, we spent a lot of time and effort better understanding who we are and what makes us different. And for us, it's about elevating standards and exceeding expectations. That is internally, and that's absolutely externally as we support our clients. At ISI, our vision is to succeed together. Again, internal and external. If our client is succeeding, we are succeeding. If our employees are succeeding, the organization is succeeding. And so everything we try to do--one, those things that we can define, the goals, the desired end states--we're trying to make sure it is aligned and integrated with who we are and how we do what we do. Lastly, I'd say, How we've been successful, what makes us different, is these pillars that ISI has, and it is really tied to our culture. But our pillars are about care, accountability, collaboration, adaptability and resilience, and continuous improvement. Again, elevating standards and exceeding expectations. We never rest on our laurels or the status quo. We are driving to make bigger, better value internally to our people and externally to our customers.
[00:26:14.730] - John Berry
Well, it sounds like we might be getting into your "land and expand" strategy. Tell us about that.
[00:26:20.760] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. I think for us, and again, we are still a small business, where our service is able to be better known to small business. And in the GovCon space, when you grow, you start to exceed certain size standards where you are no longer small. And so for some businesses, that's absolutely the ideal end state, whether for business owners, they want to exit and sell or whether they want to hold what they have in perpetuity. And that's where ISI is. We are looking at having an enduring value proposition to our customers and our employees alike. And how we do that is that growing in the depth. The "land and expand" is tied intimately with partner. That means whether it is 250 hours providing communication advisory support, we want to get in the door show you our value through partnering, building, sustaining trust, so that you constantly come back to us to expand what we're doing for you across our service set, because how much we align with your mission, with you as an individual client. And so that "land and expand" is exactly that. Get us in the door. Let us land, and we're going to start to encroach to deliver greater value across a greater breadth of opportunities.
[00:27:41.240] - John Berry
Let's talk a little bit now about your leadership style. You've been called both pace-setting and authoritative. How do you juxtapose those two different leadership styles?
[00:27:59.180] - Chris Lefebvre
That may be what I have been called. I think, if anything, I and most leaders need to be adaptable. I think that each situation, each team, each client, each individual requires somewhat of a different leadership style or approach for pace setting. This is really my default. Admittedly, there are pros and cons to it. But I hold myself and others to very, very high standards. Again, short of our tagline of elevating standards, exceeding expectations. It's really alluded in this. I will say what I've noticed is when I default to this pace setting leadership style, it's not sustainable. So you can't hold it continuously in perpetuity. You also need to have really high competence across your team, high motivation across your teams, and specifically where this does work well is in specialized groups. Now, I have been really lucky, and this is what I have organizationally, certainly in my leadership team, but even down to contracts or programs, highly motivated, very smart, and in some of the disciplines, pretty specialized. But again, this has got to be balanced. I think the authoritative piece, which is not authoritarian, is really about being able to motivate team members and connecting the individual or team's work to the broader organization.
[00:29:28.970] - Chris Lefebvre
You asked about what's most important starting, and I mentioned having that plan, that strategic, operational, tactical plan in that goal setting. Where I have evolved into more of the authoritative is understanding that as we've grown, I had to change my leadership style. I had to take bigger picture, longer durations, but really start to integrate the broader team into that. Here, the end state, how are you going to execute it? Our team has done a truly, truly amazing job, specifically in the last three years of doing just that.
[00:30:02.070] - John Berry
So as we talk about leadership, we now transition to the After Action Review. Your three examples of great leadership and the three examples of poor leadership. So let's start with the three examples of great leadership, either something you did or something you observed.
[00:30:17.550] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure. Again, overarching, I think that what's needed in all cases is this adaptability, so adaptive leadership and authentic leadership. I have seen very recently examples of authentic leadership that, and I will tie this to, leadership is not unique to a title, a role, position. We try to deliver leaders at every level, and so I think everyone is a leader in what they do. And recently at an off-site, we had a workshop where we had folks going through and giving examples of what is called their deeper truth. And in that, this transparency, this authenticity about who they are, the struggles that they've had, the struggles that they are dealing with right now. It was transformative for our leadership team into better understanding the individuals that we work with day to day. That leadership to stand up and set the stage and set the example for others to follow was so impactful in the moment. But the ripple effect organizationally has been incredible in years to follow. This was years ago, but now we're trying to maintain much more of that organizationally. I'd also say transformational leadership. This is challenging, but generally, this is going to be leaders that focus on pushing their teams outside the comfort zone.
[00:31:45.800] - Chris Lefebvre
And if you see a lot of this in startups, you've got a big idea. How can we stretch the team, stretch the goals? A lot of times, this is high risk, high reward. So you can have great examples of transformational leadership doing doing all the right things the right way, but it doesn't always mean it's going to have success at the end of it. I'd say for me, on the good leadership, those would be my two examples. On the bad leadership, and in the military, I think we see a lot of this, and you can probably relate to that authoritarian, autocratic type of leadership where, "Hey, I'm in this role. I'm going to make all the decisions. I give the orders." There's an upside to this. There are pros. When quick decisions need to be made, it's--people say in the military, instant obedience to orders. Here's a desired end state, go out and do it. But man, there are bad examples of this where it's just taken too far. It's where absolutely you can have micromanagement dictating not just what needs to be done, but how it should be done. In the military, not that it was pervasive, but there were certainly multiple examples of that.
[00:32:59.510] - Chris Lefebvre
I think where there is a use case for this, as well as for transactional or managerial leadership, really structure-heavy and process-oriented. The example that I have is, and ISI has had this, where we really needed a lot of support and help around structure. However, with too much focus on structure, you may start to lose sight about the care of the people and the individuals, and it starts to feel a little give and take. The cautionary tale there is, man, structure is critically important. There's no doubt. As is process and process improvement. But at the end of the day, we're in the people business, and so you can't lose sight of the impacts and other intended consequences to the people. Lastly, and I certainly have an example here, this idea of delegative or laissez-faire leadership. The example from the military is we had a unit where I was executive officer, and we had deployed multiple times together, keeping the broader unit really intact through all those deployments. We got a new company commander that, no fault of his own, had not yet deployed, was coming out of school. He saw the opportunity to leverage the existing leadership of the unit to carry and help us be as efficient as effective.
[00:34:25.630] - Chris Lefebvre
However, I think in this example, a little too much was delegated. And so, unintended consequences, this particular leader may have shot himself in the foot and took too much authority and influence away from himself by positioning those subordinate leaders a little too far out in front. Again, we executed brilliantly, but just hindsight after action-wise, looking back, and it's a really great example for me to make sure, listen, when in charge, take charge. You still need to be that first taking the step and ensuring that everybody understands, yes, the position, what is the vision, and how are we all going to get there together?
[00:35:08.040] - John Berry
That is the most difficult paradox of leadership. On one hand, you want to empower your subordinate leaders. The ideal situation is you're just passing out--this is the mission, these are the tasks, you got this, you got this, and it's fire and forget. Bam, they got it, whatever. I'm going to be hands-off. Laissez-faire, let them do their thing. And then the other side of that is if you're not doing that, then you might be micromanaging. And that is such a tough balancing act for a leader because you don't want to be that micromanager that holds back your leaders. You want to let those eagles fly. You want to let them do great things. But if you, as a leader, stop them from flying, then you fail. But on the other hand, if you kick them out of the nest and they fall to their death, it's your fault, too. It's such a tough balancing act.
[00:35:53.460] - Chris Lefebvre
Well, I know, by the way, sprinkle in change, right? I mean, whether it's organizational change, structurally, growth, right? It complicates things and exacerbates that problem and that challenge significantly because change is just difficult and how you manage it, who has experienced it before, it's just so different, and there's so much variance. Again, I couldn't be more blessed with the team that we have that we've been able to walk this path together. One, learning it as we go together, building the plane as you're flying it. But we really all, at the end of the day, come back and understood that we are in in fact, doing it together. I think that broader, certainly from a leadership team standpoint, that broader alignment is really what carries the weight for us.
[00:36:40.820] - John Berry
So for listeners that want to learn more about ISI, or maybe even want to be part of your team now after hearing your leadership philosophies, how can they learn more? Where do they need to go?
[00:36:51.030] - Chris Lefebvre
Sure thing. I mean, most social media is LinkedIn for sure. Company and myself, you can find, and I believe you'll push out. Linkedin sites, our website, www.isiwdc.com. We are always looking for new partners, teaming partners, individuals, individual consultants. Again, as a consultant, we often deploy single people in a particular role. But much of ISI's success has been through partnering, and so we are always looking for capable and qualified firms to help bolster our capabilities and really help align. That's what I'd say. What we're looking to promote is ISI as an organization. We are trying to do things differently. It is not just about the numbers. It is not just about driving growth. It's really about what we can create and sustain within the organization of ISI because we have already seen that that can drive much more significant results faster.
[00:37:50.570] - John Berry
Outstanding. Thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge with us, Chris Lefebvre.
[00:37:56.690] - Chris Lefebvre
Great. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
[00:38:03.870] - John Berry
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