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We are Meredith and Mishelle and together, we are flipping the script on what it means to be an IT girl. Each week we will be discussing topics and questions submitted by YOU, our audience, as we navigate life's challenges together.
Mishelle Kost (00:01)
Hey, fabulous people, I'm Meredith. And I'm Michelle. And together we're here to flip the script on what it truly means to be the It Girl. That's right. Whether you're rocking the runway or embracing the messy bun life, no matter your size, ethnicity, or state of your sweats, you are It. We're diving deep into the realness of life, celebrating the victories, navigating the failures, and sometimes not having a clue while doing it all.
We've got battle scars, heartbreaks, contagious laughs, and an unbreakable bond of love for each other. Join us every week as we unwrap different topics and answer questions brought to us by our amazing audience. That's you. Get ready for a fresh dose of perspective that'll make you think, laugh, and maybe even shed a tear. We're on this journey together, growing, crying, laughing, and fighting for one another, because that's what being an It Girl is all about.
So send us your burning topics and thought provoking questions through our website, itgirllife .com or drop us a line directly at hello at itgirllife .com. Let's make every moment count, embrace the chaos and live our best it girl lives.
Mishelle (01:02)
All right, episode eight, here we go. Take two, full transparency. This is a re -record. Meredith and I were having some technical difficulties. We were both breathing way too loud. So here we go again. We didn't want to give you the Darth Vader version. So today's episode is about stepping up to the plate, exploring the art of taking the lead. We're going to talk all about managing up.
and leading up and what does that look like to be a leader for your leader at times? So that's the episode. We're very excited to dig in. But first off, let's do the icebreaker question. So Meredith, you kick us off. What is your best moment as a leader so far?
Meredith (01:49)
I am the most proud of this question, mainly because you and I both take the privilege of leadership so seriously. And so I would say that the opportunity to show others what they're capable of when they don't recognize that in themselves has been the most rewarding opportunity so far as a leader, as well as I have had the opportunity to remain
in people's lives once they've left either my management or the company that we are working for. And so most recently had a previous employee re -recruit me back to be their boss several years later. And so I think both of those things are attributing to who I hope I am to them. And that's just a mentor and a friend and someone who genuinely cares about them as individuals.
So I would say that's what I have been my best moments so far. What about you?
Mishelle (02:50)
That's an incredible moment. Can we pause and talk about that for a second? So that you had such an impact on them the first time around being their boss, that you were the first person they thought of when they were in the search for a new boss. And it was like, hey, getting recruited by one of your former employees, what an incredible honor that is. I love that story. Definitely probably a testament to your leadership style and how much you've made an impact on their lives. So good job, Meredith.
Meredith (03:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you. It's a lot of it has it was a lot of fun and I really enjoy. If you know me, I love to send memes. I really reach out and say just thinking about you today. Hope you're doing well. If we've been apart 10 years, I'll still reach out if your number is still the same. If a thought pops up and that's who I want to be as a friend, as a family member, as a boss.
to people to let them know that you as the individual matter to me. So yeah, correct, yeah.
Mishelle (03:48)
Yeah, just like staying connected. Such a good hot tip for anybody younger out there. Always staying in touch with your connections, keeping them alive. I think that's such a good tip. You never know when you're going to need a good connection. OK.
Meredith (04:03)
Yeah, okay. So what about you? What is your best moment as a leader so far? No.
Mishelle (04:07)
I know I'm digressing. Okay, so my best moment as a leader, I think similar to you, is overarchingly like the theme would be when somebody has that aha moment, when they realize potential in themselves that they didn't see before, is like, brings me the greatest joy. And the example, and like an actual example of that would be at, there was one employee that I was working with who really struggled with the idea of giving feedback.
And so much so that they were having like a visceral physical reaction to going and giving this other individual feedback about how something came across to them. Just so much stress around having a conflict or a miscommunication that they were in tears, break down, didn't feel like they could do it. I pumped this person up. I let them know this is so important. Talk to them about the why. We practiced, we role played.
And that person went out there, did the feedback and came back and just felt so empowered, so proud of themselves, so just saw something that they didn't realize they had, like a skillset they didn't realize they had. And they ended up being a huge champion for feedback and training so many other future team members. And so I would say that is like what sticks out to me the most about a really great leadership moment of just a time when somebody believed in themselves and I was there to support them.
in that belief. Like I didn't do anything other than support them in that belief and yeah it was just really rewarding to see that come to life.
Meredith (05:41)
And what's really neat about that is being a leader, especially an unselfish leader, you're there with them in the good times and you're there with them in the bad times. And you need, and a lot of the time they need to know that someone else supports them when they have to deliver bad news or when something is rocky in the situation. And it sounds like you were that person for them that was like that solid rock of support, which is huge in leadership and management. So that's cool.
Mishelle (06:10)
Yeah, it was.
Meredith (06:11)
That's fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a huge privilege to be able to lead others and manage others. So, yeah.
Mishelle (06:17)
It's a huge privilege. And so much, it's hard, but there's also so much reward out of it.
Meredith (06:23)
Yeah, yes. Yes to both things. Okay, so getting into the topic this week, the question around it is, I would like to learn more about how to lead or manage up. Do you have any tips? And so Michelle, thoughts around managing up, leading up, maybe what your definition around that is?
Mishelle (06:25)
Hmm? Hmm?
Mm hmm. Yes, for sure. And I would say this is a newer term for me, a newer practice. I guess I never really heard of it until pretty recently. But for me, the idea of managing up is making sure that you're being a leader for your leader and doing what you can to support that person just as much as you take so much time and care and effort, energy to lead your team.
do that same exercise and put that same level of leadership into managing your manager and making sure that they have what they need. So for example, that could be, you know, if you think about me being a leader for my team, I'm gonna wanna know what my team strengths are, how my team communicates, what's their best preferred communication style, how do they like to be celebrated, what feedback, how does feedback go for them? So I wanna do all those same things for the person that I'm,
being led by also. Because again, I think that if I can support that leader really well, or I can get ahead of any requests, and we can talk about that later, but it's making sure that that leader feels supported and ultimately so that I get a better result too, so that I get led really well. So it's not just like for the sake of that leader, but it's also to get like led back really well. So I think if I'm managing up really well and I'm,
doing everything I can to let that leader know all the things, or if I know certain things about that leader, like let's say they really, you know, every Monday they ask me 10 million questions about X, Y, Z. I'm gonna take note of that because I'm gonna make sure that on Friday afternoon, maybe I'm gonna send a long recap that answers all the questions that I know that they're gonna have for me on Monday. And to me, that just builds trust, it builds a bridge because then,
I'm showing that leader that, hey, I'm paying attention to the things that are important to you, and I'm making sure that I'm getting those things done, and I'm communicating in a way that you appreciate. And I feel like, again, like I said, it just builds trust and a better relationship. And so then that leader can trust me, and I don't have to be annoyed by all their questions that they asked me on Monday. So it's kind of twofold.
Meredith (09:04)
And so what I'm hearing you say, and rightfully so, it's essentially trying to make your manager's life easier and in essence making your life easier because you're building a stronger communication style and learning all of the different things about them, keeping open communication and clarity, right? Yeah.
Mishelle (09:26)
Mm -hmm. Yes, exactly. Mm -hmm.
Meredith (09:30)
And so when I was reading this question and when I think of opportunities of leading up or managing up, two distinct things stick out to me. And managing up has always come to me, the opportunity has come to me in a negative context, which is difficult. A lot of the time I felt you have to manage up when you, there's a transition and say you get a new boss, but the boss isn't introduced to the team culture or the work.
place culture or how you do things. And so you almost have to take one for the team and manage them while they're learning the ropes. But other times I've had to play interference because the person who was in charge of us or directly above me didn't quite seem as competent or didn't have the best interest a lot of the times. And so I had to manage up in a way that.
it was almost like filtering, managing up one way to manage down to the rest of the team. So I've always viewed managing up as a reaction to a negative, like a negative instance. Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. And it is a lot more effort and managing up and the opportunity to manage up is almost selfless. Like you're doing this.
Mishelle (10:38)
Mm. Yeah. Which it absolutely could be. You have to do it in both regards. Yeah.
Meredith (10:52)
to benefit the company, to benefit the team, to benefit yourself a lot of the time. And then leading up, I feel was always prevalent to me when I was in front lines type of roles. Like no matter what my title was and no matter what my responsibility was in a company, I always felt I should lead up and create an environment that I knew we could grow to. Because a lot of people get stuck in this mindset.
of that's above my pay grade or that's not my job. And to me, the opportunity to lead up is regardless of your title, doing what's best for everybody around you and really striking it out and knowing that you're capable of more allows you an opportunity to lead up almost like in the societal norm of like.
Mishelle (11:24)
huh. huh.
Meredith (11:46)
what you do when no one's looking versus the things that you do when someone's looking. And to me, leading up is always what you do when no one's looking. You're just automatically a leader and display those characteristics. But for managing up, I do practice what you say as well. And I do that as a proactive step because the easier your life is as my boss, the easier my life is. And then I have a lot more autonomy in my...
work in my day to day and proactive communication. And I don't have to be so reactive and defensive anticipating that I let you down or that I didn't complete a task on time. Even though if you didn't state those expectations and you weren't clear to me how we should communicate and what would make your life easier, I'm still gonna do that regardless. And then.
If you don't communicate and there is no clarity, then I have to manage up because you're failing me instead of vice versa. You know, I'm doing everything that I can, but that's my status quo. Like what you said, it seems like you and I are similar to that. My status quo is to go above and beyond what's expected. And then if that person fails me, then I just go above and beyond anyways. Without their blessing, yeah.
Mishelle (13:08)
Yeah, with or without, I'm doing it anyways. I think also, I mean, at the end of the day, I want I myself, I'll speak for myself, I want my leader to be successful because if my leader is successful, then I'm successful. If I'm successful, then my team is successful. It's just how the leadership trickle down effect works. So I'm gonna do all I can to make sure that that person succeeds. And if that means,
Meredith (13:13)
Mm -hmm.
Mishelle (13:38)
giving them certain answers or providing them every piece of information I can around a certain decision or some data points, making sure that they have what they need to win is like where my mindset goes. Like for right now, for example, I am onboarding a new leader for me, like my leader. And in that process, I've just been thinking about what else could I provide for this person to onboard really well? And I think,
You know, you often think about onboarding your own team, but you don't think about onboarding your manager. And really, it's like, how can I best support my managers onboarding right now? Okay, maybe I'll send them my strengths finders. Maybe I'll send them my disk assessment. How do I need them to support me really well? So how do I give them that information to do that? And that's how I'm going to lead up.
Meredith (14:13)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. But I think that what I want everybody to recognize as you're saying that is, Michelle, that's what makes you a great leader. And I think there's a distinct difference between someone who can manage people and someone who can lead people well. And the characteristics of yours that you say, hey, everything aside, I know that we're not going to be successful unless we band together as a team. And I'm happy to be that hub.
And I know in leadership, if people don't know this, you typically, a good leader should give the team 100 % of the credit and take 100 % of the blame. And that's how it works because we win together and we lose together and we're not out to single each other out.
Mishelle (15:14)
Yeah.
Meredith (15:16)
But what I'm hearing you say is more leadership qualities that isn't an inherited trait for a lot of people. So the people that are listening, if you're trying to understand the capabilities of becoming a successful leader in comparison to a successful manager, because anybody can make sure you're scheduled, make sure that your PTO got approved. Those are tangible management traits, but the effort that you're putting into it are strong leadership traits.
and you're leading up. And if you, I mean, you show in the ropes of, well, here's how you use the system. Here's how you do that. Yeah, that's managing up as well and getting them acclimated to the environment, but not everybody has to do that. And so for the folks that want to succeed and really have to understand how to do this, I think the biggest thing that we would resonate is it is a selfless thing. You have to put...
Mishelle (15:47)
Mm.
Meredith (16:14)
everybody else above your feelings about situations and things, because if this person succeeds, we all succeed. And it doesn't matter what level or what role that person is playing.
Mishelle (16:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, and even if that person is, like you said, Meredith, isn't a negative connotation of like, they're underperforming and potentially incompetent, and they're your boss. And you can either sit there and struggle in that and complain, or you can manage up or lead up and help this person get better, help this person lead you better. And like,
Meredith (16:36)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mishelle (16:54)
And yeah, it is a selfless thing because you're not doing it for personal gain. Well, a little bit, but you want to do it more so so that your team can win. Because if my leader is incompetent or struggling, 100 percent my team below me is going to feel that. And so I'm going to do all that I can to make sure that this person leading me.
Meredith (17:02)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mishelle (17:23)
has what they need to be successful and everything that I can do for them to help them get there, I'm gonna do that. And I think sometimes, like you said, a lot of people might take the backseat approach of being like, well, I don't need to do that. Like that person is supposed to lead me. That person is supposed to be my manager. Why do I need to do all these things for them? Like that's above my pay grade. And nobody wins in that mindset. Nobody wins, nothing is gained. Yeah. Exactly. And like,
Meredith (17:31)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
And you're all frustrated. You are all frustrated.
Mishelle (17:52)
There's nothing, nothing results from that. So 100 % agree with what you're saying in terms of supporting leaders be leaders.
Meredith (17:56)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and I think one clarifying point, there is a gain. It's not like, you know, right away, you're providing all of these tools for the next person to be successful. To get for them to learn you easy in a consolidated box, you're like, here, I know me. These are all of the things that give you my personality, my characteristics, my learning style, my communication style in a box.
so that we don't have to spend six months tiptoeing around each other if I said a word that hurt your feelings. So your personal gain there for providing them all this information to learn your information sooner is that they get to know you and you guys become a partnership instead of, well, here, I'm gonna just tell you what to do, micromanagement or anything like that. So that's that personal gain right away of them understanding your...
It's really weird to say it this way, but it's almost like dating, like really speed dating because you're gonna spend as much time with these folks as you do as home. And you just want them to understand where you're coming from. And so for an example, if I were coming to a team brand new and nobody knew me, I come in and I create my own mission statement. I create a department goal and mission statement. I create expectations and I let them know, here's what I provide for you.
and here's what you, this is the expectation I have, and this is negotiable still. So if you do not align, and this doesn't align with the current culture, we can negotiate these traits. But I am not asking you to do anything that I am not willing to get in the trenches to do myself. And that's where I think that they can, and then I have to back that up with action. To be fair, you have to back it up with action, but that's where I think that that's where you start gaining trust because...
everything is clear, everything is written out and everybody knows where you stand. Like this is my pet peeve, here are my pet peeves, me being honest about that. My pet peeve is if you do not respond to a message and you just don't tell me what you're doing. Like that's my biggest pet peeve. I think in this, I think we are.
Mishelle (20:03)
Yeah.
Are we the same person? Yes. Yes. I also have that same pet peeve and I am very clear with my team. When I join a new team, I want to make sure, or someone new joins my team, I always let them know, like, here are the things that I expect and here are my pet peeves. What are your pet peeves? And like you said, I love that the keyword that you said is it's a partnership. And I think the more people can realize that,
Meredith (20:42)
Mm -hmm.
Mishelle (20:45)
the relationship between you and a manager or between you and your employees is not like, I'm reading this book called Trust and Inspire and it talks about command and control and it's not like a commander and their subordinates. And I almost hate using that terminology of these are my subordinates
Because it creates this hierarchy view of this person is above me. And in a team environment, I think this is like the new age of leadership. You're leading people, but it's a partnership and it's a team effort. And you want to be able to lead people as that partnership. And you can't do that if you're not communicating both expectations on both sides. So.
Meredith (21:30)
Mm -hmm.
Mishelle (21:31)
I 100 % agree with that and that is for sure going above and beyond, but such an important step when trying to build trust amongst your team and when you're stepping into a new role or if you have new people stepping in.
Meredith (21:47)
Yeah, I think that it's really critical too. And this is pretty funny because I learned from an old boss and he brought donuts every Friday. And I took that lesson because yeah, it was donuts every Friday, but I use donuts or bringing a treat on Fridays to a team. And people are like, why do you do that? And my joke responses, it's to make up for all the nagging I did the past week and to like pay in advance for the nagging I'm gonna do next week. But really what that shows them if...
if they know that they can count on me for just bringing donuts every Friday, even if I was on PTO, I would have something delivered. But the intention is one, I appreciate you. Two, you can rely on me as something as simple as this. And three, this comes out of my own pocket. Like this is me intentionally giving you something tangible to show my appreciation. And it's not, I'm not telling everybody to go out and do this.
But that's how I also let them know in the beginning. And if they can tell that even something as small as donuts opens the bridge of them understanding that they could trust me and they know that they can rely on me to do something I say I'm gonna do, that goes such a long way in comparison to anything else. And that's a really physical thing that they could see right off the bat. And it's really interesting and weird, but.
Mishelle (23:03)
that's cool. So, so you do you would do it as a way to show consistency, appreciation, and have them see like they can count on you for those things count on you for appreciation, consistency, celebration of their work. Cool. Simple tool.
Meredith (23:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I wouldn't miss. Yeah, even if I'm gone. Simple tool, and it was $20 a week, 20 -ish. Sometimes I'd surprise with tacos if they work late. If it was a thing where we'd have to come in and work late, I always call in, hey, what can I do to help? I may not be there every single time, two, three in the morning. This had been for seven to 12 years. I would call in, hey, what can I do to help? So they know that I'm willing to get in there and work with them. And that's how I think that you manage and lead up is,
they need to understand that you have their back. Whether you're doing that with your immediate supervisor and their boss, I would always write to my immediate supervisor and say, hey, I just wanna make sure in case this gets on your radar. I handled it this way, but I don't want you to get caught off guard or feel like you weren't in the loop. I don't think it will land on your desk. And that's really what I'm just hopeful because I want it to look like we're a team and on the same page.
Mishelle (23:54)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Meredith (24:17)
Even if they let me have the autonomy to do the things that I wanna do, I don't ever want my boss to be caught off guard and be like, I had no clue this was happening, Meredith, why didn't you tell me? And that's where I think continuous managing and leading up is making sure everyone's taken care of.
Mishelle (24:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Agreed. It's that communication because like you said, if you're a team, you don't ever want to leave your teammate feeling like they didn't have all the information to play their best game. So communicating up and giving them all the information is so critical. And think about it from your perspective, if you're a boss, what type of information do you want to be communicated to? So oftentimes I'll use that as a filter of
Meredith (24:45)
Mm -hmm.
Mishelle (25:00)
Is this something that I would want to know if I was a leader? And if the answer is yes, then I'm 100 % getting on that computer, typing on my email, sending a text message, whatever it is, to make sure that that person is fully in the loop and feels like they can be the expert. Because if they can feel like they're the expert, like if they feel good, then we're all going to feel good. It's almost like it's not people pleasing, but it's making it's like lifting somebody up.
Meredith (25:17)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mishelle (25:28)
so that they can step into the leadership position they were given so that they can lead really well.
Meredith (25:28)
Yeah.
I'm always under the impression that I can't over communicate. You can choose, if you were my boss, Michelle, and I over communicated, you can choose what to digest and whatnot. It's that under communication or where you have to continually ask me for things that would be my pet peeve. If I have to continually ask you what's the status of this, where are we at on that, then we're already where we have a problem. But I always am under the impression of, hey, I'm gonna just put this in your inbox or in a chat.
Mishelle (25:58)
Exactly.
Meredith (26:04)
You can disregard it, that never hurts my feelings. You do not need to respond. It is just for your information only. So.
Mishelle (26:12)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. I think a big way that I like to manage up and lead up is exactly what you just shared. I don't want my leader to feel like they have to follow up with me. So I'm going to preemptively communicate, make sure they know everything, make sure they're fully in the loop, they have all the status updates. So they're not wondering. And I think, again, by doing all of that, it builds trust, a better partnership.
better teamwork, you're gonna get a better response out of your leader, better behavior out of your leader, because the less your leader is irritated and annoyed, the better they are for you. So strong encouragement to lead up, manage up, as silly as it sounds, it's a very critical key component for success of any team.
Meredith (26:45)
Hehehe
Two, the one thing that I would leave or impart is it sounds like a lot of work. What we just said in the time that we've been speaking sounds like a lot of work, but to be fair, it's really just treat others the way you want to be treated. If we could boil it down to a topic or a saying, how do you want people to keep you informed? And that's something that I had trained a lot when I was in the hospital setting because how do you tell your guests what's happening with their family?
How do you, you always have to treat others the way you want to be treated or how your family is being treated or anything like that. So it sounds like a lot of work, but I think that putting in the effort to laying a solid foundation of your management style, your leadership style, puts you already above in being proactive about leading or managing up.
Mishelle (27:52)
Mm -hmm. Agreed. A thousand percent. So as that closing, I think...
Don't forget to manage up. Remember it's a team effort. Treat others how you would want to be treated and all will go well. Hope this episode was helpful for you as you're navigating leadership in your own world at work. If you have any comments or questions about this, we would love to continue talking about it. I think both Meredith and I are very passionate about the topic of leadership and this was just one tiny aspect.
So if you want to have more conversation about this, submit your burning questions to us. We want to hear from you. Send us a DM or just email us at hello at itgirllife .com. Join us on our website, which is itgirllife .com. There's a button right there where you can drop in a question. It's really simple and easy. So send us a note and let us know where you need support. We're here for you. And we'll see you next time.
Meredith (28:56)
Thank you. Bye.
Mishelle (28:57)
Bye!