The Evolution of Sales in a Post-COVID World | TFOS E17

In this episode of The Future of Selling Podcast, host Rick Smith sits down with Shannon Schaul, founder and principal of SKS Advisory, to explore how sales has fundamentally changed since the pandemic, and what leaders must do to adapt.

Shannon brings a unique perspective from years of building go-to-market strategies for growth-stage, mission-driven companies. From empathy-driven selling to the rise of hybrid sales skills, this conversation covers it all.

• What’s different about selling in 2025
• Why empathy and small talk are essential, not optional
• The outdated sales mindsets that no longer work
• Why your team must use their voice
• The problem with most sales training, and how to fix it
• How to invest in people the right way
• And why "hitting pause" might be the most powerful leadership move you can make

Whether you're a CRO, sales leader, or individual contributor, this episode is packed with practical insights to help you lead with purpose and perform at a higher level.

Connect with Shannon Schaul:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonschaul/

Connect with Rick Smith:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/rick-smith-094b29b/
Check out Conquer: https://conquer.io/

Creators and Guests

Host

Rick Smith

Chief Customer Officer at Conquer, Host of The Future of Selling Podcast, Eternal Student

What is The Future of Selling?

The Future of Selling is the go-to podcast for sales professionals looking to sharpen their skills and stay ahead in the competitive world of B2B sales. Each episode features expert interviews, real-world case studies, and actionable tips to help you navigate the complex B2B buyer's journey. Whether you're dealing with long sales cycles, multiple decision-makers, or rapidly changing technologies, we’ve got you covered. Tune in to discover the latest trends, best practices, and proven strategies for closing more deals and building lasting relationships in the B2B space. Perfect for sales leaders, account managers, and anyone aiming to master the art of B2B selling.

Using the following transcript from Episode 17 of The Future of Selling Podcast with guest Shannon Schaul, please suggest a few titles, and select 10 YouTube shorts with timestamps. Future Of Selling (00:00.723)
Hey, welcome to the Future of Selling podcast. This is where we dive into challenges, trends, innovations, anything that's impacting the future of sales or really the sales landscape. I'm your host, Rick Smith. So appreciative that you have decided to join us today and are really excited about our guests. I mean, I'm always excited about our guests, right? But this one's a little bit special because I've known Shannon for a long time. We worked together years ago. She's had a tremendous career since then. We've stayed connected over the years. And anyway, I've been trying to get

Shannon on the podcast for probably six, seven months now, and she's finally here. So it's going to be a great conversation today. Shannon is the founder and principal of SKS advisory. In SKS advisory, it's a consultancy that's focused on helping growth stage companies, design and execute go to market strategies that align people, process and purpose. And you're going to hear that kind of that theme of purpose and mission.

coming up multiple times probably as we go through this and we talk today. Prior to launching SKS Advisory in 2025, Shannon served as Chief Growth Officer at Avive Health, and she led sales and marketing and solutions there, and did that through a period of really rapid transformation. Her career has also included some other kind of senior leadership roles or stops at Psych Hub, Catapult,

health for a long time and consumer medical. And when she was in these companies, she led business development, strategic partnerships, sales operations. So really, Shannon is pretty widely respected for her ability to bridge the gap between executive vision and execution. And that's such a hard thing to do. And she does this really, really well, especially in mission driven companies. So Shannon, welcome to the podcast. I so appreciate you being here today.

Shannon Schaul (01:55.074)
Thank you, my friend. It's good to be reunited with you. It's been a long time, been a long time since we worked together, but glad the friendship has continued.

Future Of Selling (01:59.056)
It is, we-

Future Of Selling (02:04.839)
Yeah, I am too. Matter of fact, we probably haven't seen each other in about two years since we did our little get together with everybody from, know, back in the day. And I don't know if we'll get that today, but that was phenomenal, the time we, you know, just doing that. But it also reminds you of how important it is, the people that you work with, right? And the people that you forge these relationships with and you kind of serve in the arena with. And though I loved our little happy hour and enjoyed it,

Shannon Schaul (02:12.949)
I know, it's been a while.

Future Of Selling (02:33.715)
when I walked away from it, that's what I thought about and I kept thinking about are these people that you and I worked together and served with and just how much that meant, how much that experience meant. So anyway.

Shannon Schaul (02:45.357)
100 % feeling is mutual my friend and I think that you know, that's probably a lot of what we'll talk about today. It's not only the relationships you build with your clients and your prospects and those that take you in. It's also your internal relationships that help make you successful more than anything else. So.

Future Of Selling (03:02.515)
Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Well, cool. Well, let me throw out a few fun facts that we found. the first one really made me laugh when I looked at it. I did not know this, right? But you are a adopt mom to Bertie, your energetic pup. And the reason that struck me as being funny is because my granddaughter calls my wife Bertie and that's her.

Shannon Schaul (03:23.735)
I love that. know, I know. Yeah, I wanted my parents to call themselves bogey and birdie and they didn't go for that. they didn't go that. So my dog, my dog is birdie.

Future Of Selling (03:26.577)
Yeah, we're...

Future Of Selling (03:32.947)
No dice.

Yeah, well, I love it. my wife was like, nope, I'm not going to be grandma or grandmother. I'm doing something else. Anyway, I thought that was great. You're an avid traveler and a restaurant explorer, which I think is really, really interesting. Where's the best place you've been, most exciting place, however you want to say that in the last, let's say five years from a travel? Anywhere?

Shannon Schaul (03:43.541)
know.

Huh.

Shannon Schaul (03:58.702)
wow. Wow. I'm gonna go a little like right pre pandemic travel. I had the fortunate opportunity to go to Africa, South Africa, and go on a safari. And it was just one of those life changing experiences. I love animals also. So being able to do that. And the year prior to that, I went to watch the polar bears migrate and

Future Of Selling (04:09.855)
my god. Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (04:22.783)
and two years I'm trying to go hike in with the gorillas. So again, love travel, love when it can be combined with these amazing animals as well.

Future Of Selling (04:30.387)
I may need some tips, by the way, on the whole South Africa thing that Safari, my wife, wants to do that. You also love reading, which I think we're going to hit that a little bit later. I actually didn't know that you were an avid reader. I am too, so probably a lot of synergies there. And you started your career in education before transitioning to tech and health innovation. So anyway, just always interesting. You've got a great...

Shannon Schaul (04:34.829)
For sure. Best trip. You gotta go.

Future Of Selling (04:58.355)
a professional history, but I think it's always kind of cool to dig in a little bit to some of the fun facts as well. So anyway, thank you for letting us take that little short journey.

Shannon Schaul (05:07.095)
didn't start my career in education. I started it in television, behind the scenes at Univision. yeah, yeah. Anyone that would be listening, they're like, who did she educate? That's a problem. So we'll clear that up real quick.

Future Of Selling (05:11.632)
really?

okay. Got it, got it.

Future Of Selling (05:28.659)
You're not educated. All right, that's good. Thank you for that correction. We just cut that out of the podcast. All right. Well, you know, we were here today to talk about and we chatted about this a little bit before just, you know, want to talk about the evolution of sales in the post COVID era and kind of, you know, what's changed, right? But before we get to that, we'll jump in a second. Tell me about SKS advisory. I was, you know, really, you know, I saw a pop up on LinkedIn around the first of the year when you

Shannon Schaul (05:33.997)
Yeah, yeah, we'll take that.

Future Of Selling (05:58.547)
when you started this thing, I guess, early 2025, it's like, oh my gosh, it's gonna start in her own consults, it's so cool. But tell us, what is it about? What are you guys doing? And then what caused you to start it?

Shannon Schaul (06:13.377)
Yeah, absolutely. So kind of going in reverse order there. Have been so fortunate to be part of so many great startups or even late stage companies that were having this growth explosion and an investment of capital and trying to get to transaction more or less. And so I absolutely love those companies. Like you said, so many mission driven and have gotten so much experience, but a lot of that time was spent pre pandemic.

living on an airplane, being out face to face and going, going, And then the pandemic hit and was home all the time. And that was awful for some of us, right? And so now the world's evolved and we'll talk about that. But I had been doing a ton of traveling in this last job. We transacted and I decided to hit the pause button and really think about what I wanted my next mission to be, what I wanted to do and give myself a little bit of a breather.

Future Of Selling (06:50.535)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (07:10.167)
some dear friends of mine had started their own consulting practices. I'm a one woman show right now. And it has been phenomenal. One, I have a variety of clients that I get to work with and everything from fractional kind of CRO work to marketing work to referrals and partnerships, strategy and all the great things I've learned over the years. so...

I really enjoy it. So SKS really is an advisory consulting firm, One Woman Show, to help with any growth needs in an organization.

Future Of Selling (07:44.403)
Right, right. No, I think that's incredible. And just to repeat, you're serving not necessarily just startups, right, but certainly a sweet spot there, but probably more so any companies that are kind of moving towards some sort of exit or transaction as their end goal.

Shannon Schaul (08:00.142)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and they yeah, and some of them may not even want to be in transaction stage. They're looking to alter their strategy and go through relationships and partnerships for referrals versus employer direct as that world evolves. And most of this also, I should say, is in the healthcare technology space where I've spent 99 % of my career.

Future Of Selling (08:22.163)
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, cool. Cool. Well, it sounds interesting. Love the idea. I a lot of probably a lot of people have that kind of that itch, you know that, hey, at some point, I'd love to do X and to me, it's just really cool that you were in a place where you could hit the pause button, but then also said, I'm going to hit pause button. Those are two different things, right? Because it's hard sometimes to get off that hit the pause button, do something that you really enjoy. yeah, but best of best of luck. I hope it just can.

Shannon Schaul (08:44.364)
Right.

Future Of Selling (08:51.987)
to go incredibly. good. Yeah. So good. Well, that sets us up really kind of what you're doing now for probably the rest of the conversation. if we want to focus in on the evolution of sales and post-COVID, we got to be thinking about the pre-COVID, right? So how would you describe the state of sales in 2019 pre-COVID versus today?

Shannon Schaul (08:54.817)
Thank you so much.

Shannon Schaul (09:20.971)
Yeah, this is such a good question. I think we talked about it a little bit prior to this and I think even backing up pre 2019, right? Like there's always been this perception and like that tactical playbook, if you will, of smile and dial number of calls, number of calls lead to X amount of leads that lead to number of sales and revenue. And all of that is great. And that's still around.

But I think where it's really evolved is there used to be in the playbook. Here's your script read the script if you get the person Here's the tree. Here's your voicemail then email came into play Here's your email script and I think some of that just really took out the personal element and I know we all get tons of calls every day and you can tell the people that are still reading a script and you can also tell the people that really have honed in on their skills and or

It could be AI calling you, which I know is a whole nother topic. when AI is more personable than you, we have a problem. But around 2019, it had gotten so relationship heavy. The world had changed, and obviously long before that, consultative selling, relationship selling. But a lot of that required being out face to face, in person, and all of those things that people like us, Rick, knowing you, we fuel off that. That's what feeds us.

But if you think about it, being on the road all the time and doing all those things can take away from some productivity as well, right? So it was that balance. Now, boom, the pandemic hits and now we are all trapped behind our screens here and that's all we can do. And it's meeting overload and it's all those things, but productivity went up and people really had to learn how to build those same connections and relationships and sell this way.

And so the successful people that we see now are those that have mastered both, not either or. They're the ones that can be productive and have these meetings and build the rapport and relationships and sell virtually, but also that are still willing, and I say willing, to get back out there and get in person. And the people that were successful during the pandemic, they really grew their network and built that trust, and that's why their network continues to grow and they're successful, in my opinion.

Future Of Selling (11:38.035)
Yeah, do you think that the pandemic accelerated changes that were already underway? Or do you think we had to pivot because of the pandemic? If that makes sense.

Shannon Schaul (11:53.12)
Yeah, so I think overall it was a pivot, but I think it did bring some good things like, for example, Zoom, WebEx, we were still doing those things before, but I think what the pandemic helped accelerate was that forcing people to be comfortable having calls and conversations using the camera, being able to read and interpret behaviors when you can't be in the room with the people. And so I think it did bring some good and accelerated some of those pre-COVID behaviors. What I think

Future Of Selling (12:12.274)
Right.

Shannon Schaul (12:22.977)
where it did some potential harm is there are some people that got way too comfortable right here. And now they don't want to get back out there. And I think that's a detriment to selling. I think it has to be both, as I said before.

Future Of Selling (12:36.339)
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. It is tough, right? Once you get used to it, even for somebody like me or you who are more social, right? But it becomes you're just in this, you're in this framework, this mode. And so it's just what you do. I mean, literally, I have to consciously think, OK, I need to go here. I need to make this trip. I need to go see this person where I was used to. It was just kind of that. That's what you did. And then the other challenge is finding people who

Shannon Schaul (12:44.801)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (13:06.161)
want to meet, you know, so because it's harder than it used to be.

Shannon Schaul (13:08.03)
Exactly.

And I think, and that's why it has to be like, and not either or to your point, because there are people that don't want to see you or they don't have offices anymore. There's no place to essentially meet. So you really have to find that balance. And I get it, the productivity you lose when traveling, you know, it's a trade off, but I do think it has to be both.

Future Of Selling (13:33.203)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, people still basically buy from people, right? I mean, that's the bottom line. You know, during the pandemic, maybe you hit this already, what differentiated your top sellers from everyone else? And then also, did empathy play any role there? And I'd kind of like to dig down on the empathy idea just a little bit.

Shannon Schaul (13:48.333)
Hmm.

100%.

Shannon Schaul (13:55.842)
Yeah, I mean, I think we start with that. think empathy was the number one factor that played a role. And again, this is my personal opinion, but, you know, here we are, we're hit with this crisis across the world. We're stuck at home. We have businesses to run. We have people that we need to call on, but we're stuck. And I was thinking about this question and

Empathy and sincerity were the two things that came to mind. And I was thinking about kind of those initial calls I had during COVID. I would say, probably some of them, 45 minutes of the call was like a mini, mini therapy session for whoever was on the call. And then maybe you had 15 minutes to pitch your product, and that was OK. Because what that did was that led to another call and led to a relationship and led to sales.

Future Of Selling (14:33.661)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (14:48.659)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (14:50.785)
And I think it was because, like, it's not about me, it's not about you, right? It's not personal. It's everyone was having to do that. So the empathy was key. And it led to people being able to build trust and relationships in a different way. And I mean, I know some of the people I sold to during that timeframe now are still great relationships and have bought other products from me. And I still am in touch with them. And it's...

Future Of Selling (15:06.451)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Schaul (15:19.713)
there are some of the stronger relationships I have and they started this way.

Future Of Selling (15:22.035)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You you talk, I was in a conversation yesterday and I've been reading this reading a book. It's kind of public speaking book and the importance of connection. Right. And how much that you got to have that if you're going to move a crowd. Right. But it was in a conversation yesterday and we were just talking about small talk. Right. And in a call and because some people are like, any small talk. And you hear those examples of, you know, you go into the CEO's office. He's he don't want to want you to ask about whatever. Just give him what you got. Tell him the facts.

I've never run into that person, maybe, and I'm sure they exist somewhere, right? But I don't know who that is. And, you know, when I think about the importance of that small talk, or like you said, that first 30 minutes of just connecting, right? It's, I think it's wired in our DNA. The first thing I'm trying to figure out, can I trust you? Right? Can I trust you? Do you have my best interest at heart, or is this all about you and what you're trying to accomplish? Right? And, and

Shannon Schaul (16:04.843)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Schaul (16:12.535)
Bingo.

Future Of Selling (16:20.915)
That's small talk. Hey, how's the weather where you're, know, everybody does it, right? That weather where you're at, how, you know, what's the weather like? All that is.

Shannon Schaul (16:28.567)
Where are you located? How's the weather and anything sports related? We won't talk about the Mavs and the Luca trade. That was too many calls. 100%.

Future Of Selling (16:32.307)
I know, Do not bring that up. But that's that approach, right? Where we're trying to set that connection and go, look, you can trust me. And the people who are good at that and truly lean in to get that connection, they trust you, right? And it goes back to that. Can you actually be a kind person and be a great seller? I'm gonna say absolutely, yes, you can. You almost need to be.

Shannon Schaul (17:00.651)
Yes, and you should be and you should be and I think to going back to the small talk like Throw it out there. You're gonna learn real fast if they're into it or not, right? If it falls flat then you move on you've tried or whatever but at least they start to see your personality and know that you're human also and Again to your point. It's not about me. It's not about you. It's how are we solving for their needs? Ultimately, yeah

Future Of Selling (17:11.08)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (17:24.775)
Yeah, agreed, agreed. Do you think there's any mindsets or kind of behaviors or mindsets from kind of before 2020, before pandemic that just doesn't work anymore? Like, don't do this.

Shannon Schaul (17:42.158)
Yeah. So I do think that prior to 2020, there was a level of persistence, persistence, excuse me, and aggression in some not all that was tolerated and accepted to a degree that I don't think works anymore. And I think that, you know,

us as salespeople, we get a bad rap sometimes, and sometimes it's fair, because there's a very different, big differentiation, I should say, between being persistent that comes across aggressive or professionally persistent. And I think that that, I don't think that's tolerated as much anymore, and it was before the badgering and the hounding. And I know you got to have multiple touch points. I've been in sales my whole career, but I think,

People are tired. People are exhausted. The market we're in right now is really hard. Last year and this year are really hard sales years. And I think that, you know, all of this is ultimately leading to you have to have those relationships. People want to buy from the people they know and trust. It's not the same world.

Future Of Selling (18:56.167)
Yeah, Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that's a that's a big change. And I know when we chatted before, we talked a little bit about this concept of kind of, you know, making sure that sellers are using their voice. What does that mean to you for someone to, you know, to kind of lean in and use their voice?

Shannon Schaul (19:15.317)
Yep, absolutely. So I'll go with the sales side of it, not the broader use your voice and stand up for yourself because many HR people would get mad at me. But from, from a sales perspective, anyone that's ever worked for me, I always tell them and they will tell you, speak up and use your voice. And what I mean by that is when you are in sales and client success, you are out in the field, you're in the market, you are having conversations with prospects and clients and

You're going to conferences or attending them virtually, whatever it may be. And it's your responsibility to bring that Intel back into the organization. You know what you're talking about and you need to be professional about it. And the companies I've seen be successful are where product and sales and client success marketing all work together and have those forums where people are comfortable using their voice and sharing that. The ones that I haven't seen be so successful, it's where there's this divide that

We're both experts and they're not working together. And so when I say use your voice, feel empowered to do that. And I think where it's been a detriment is some of these folks that have moved into sales that they've never been in an office with people. They've never spent the day to day. They've never sat down in a whiteboarding session, which is so fun. They've been behind a screen and sometimes it's easy to shrink away and it's harder to feel empowered to use your voice. So that's what I meant by that.

Future Of Selling (20:28.957)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (20:37.427)
Okay, got it. What do you think keeps people from doing that? it just because it's hard? Because I know what you're saying. The five dysfunctions of a team, I don't know if you've ever read that book or not. I happened to be watching a video this morning about it. And the base layer was trust, right? then the next, trust not like is, hey, I know what you're going to do and I can depend on you to tell the truth. That's, guess, trust as well.

Shannon Schaul (20:48.661)
Yeah, of course.

Future Of Selling (21:05.703)
But it's that ability that, I can be vulnerable with you. I can say I'm not perfect. So what keeps people in teams, in your opinion, from doing that? that's just such a key piece of coming together and performing.

Shannon Schaul (21:09.058)
Bingo.

Shannon Schaul (21:20.759)
Yeah, absolutely. So I do think, you know, being remote, and it's hard when you don't get to be in person at some point in time to build that rapport. But that can't be solved for all the time. Like, that, you have to work around that. So I think the other thing is it comes on us as leaders to really help coach and mentor and empower those individuals to speak up, use their voice and help them understand that this is a trusted environment and be comfortable. That comes, that comes on us.

And then I think also it's creating those environments and forums where they are able to use their voice. One of the things I think that was a detriment from COVID was it's like any and all hop on this zoom call. Everyone's home, everyone's available. Well, like not everyone needs to be in that meeting. Not everyone needs to be in a meeting about the meeting, about the meeting and so on and so forth. So I think it's being very thoughtful and conscientious of who you're bringing together. So in that last example, like,

bringing in the right people from product and the right people from that team to have a healthy, constructive conversation. You as the leader, lead by example, and help really set the stage for the conversation, the agenda, and let folks have time to prepare if they're intimidated and not using their voice. Be that leader.

Future Of Selling (22:33.415)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, and I think that that makes sense. You talked a little bit about training and kind of coaching individuals to, know, to in certain aspects of trust. Think about training gaps overall. What gaps do you see in how new sellers are trained to lead, you know, these real dynamic conversations?

Shannon Schaul (22:56.053)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Schaul (23:02.017)
So yeah, I think in the startup world, you and I both lived it. It's all hands on deck. It's moving so fast. think training, like formal training gets pushed to the wayside sometimes. So for new sellers coming in, they're having to figure it out on their own. They're having to buddy up. But if they're buddying up with each other, certain behaviors and learnings, you know, they're going to share amongst themselves. So there has to be that mentorship, coaching and guidance and whatnot.

think that it's critical that companies get back to investing in training. And this is where some people may shut off this podcast or what have you. But I was talking with a former boss of mine who's a dear friend. And we're talking about how we've gotten so far away from training and the right training to your point. So for example, it's always tactical skills and how to run a meeting and create the agenda and all these things that are, of course, important. And any new seller needs that.

but this building your network, nurturing your network, personalization and customizing and consultative, that stuff comes second. And I think it needs to be reversed and I think it needs to be flipped. And I think that that's the, and there's some really incredible training programs out there, like plug for a company called Sales Engine, who I'm actually taking their training right now while I have some time to refine and hone in on my skills. Like this old dog,

has gotten stagnant in some of her ways. And Rick, you'd appreciate this. I went through an executive training program years ago, and the biggest takeaway I had from it was we all need to be learners, not knowers. And you're such a learner, Rick. Like, you are constantly reading and absorbing. Like, you're one of the best out there. But I think it's easy in the busy-ness to think we know everything and know what to do. So challenge ourselves to be learners. And you can only get that through training and those different things. anyway.

My two cents, but we need to kind of reverse how training is done and really teach them those personal skills first. And this other stuff can come second.

Future Of Selling (25:04.935)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. What do you mind me asking? So I wrote it down sales engine. I'm going to look at it. Do you do you mind sharing what your what do you what do you what are you trying to get better at? What do you know, sales engine? What are you taking? What do you what do you like?

Shannon Schaul (25:21.323)
Yeah. So some of it was, this is funny because it's contradictory, but like, whereas the networking and relationship building and all those things, like that's probably my strength. I am going back to some of the basics, like how do you run a dynamic meeting and better preparing for that and stuff because tend to fly by the seat of my pants, right? and starting my own business, like it is very important to do the prep and the homework. So I've gotten away from some of that stuff, right? The basics.

Future Of Selling (25:42.472)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (25:51.586)
I think the other thing too is they have some courses on like powerful storytelling and like really taking that to the next level. know, working for mission driven companies, sometimes you get spoiled like in clinical, like I have stories out everywhere, but some companies may not be clinical, may not have that where, know, the impact right away. So being able to tell the story about a product and really sell it through that, whether it tugs at the heartstrings or not is key. so anyway,

So they have a ton of different courses. So I'm fortunate to have access and I'm doing my best to work on that and get better and hopefully maybe even help them teach it someday, which is exciting.

Future Of Selling (26:31.047)
Yeah, no, I love that. think that, I mean, but even to me, I just, I just respect that so much, right? Because even though you're saying, Hey, I'm going back to some of the basics. Well, good for you. Because sometimes we forget the basics. No. And I mean, especially if you're running a team or, know, in your case, yes, you're, you know, it's a, you know, single person in a, in a, in a, company right now, but other companies are hiring you to help them. So, I mean, good for you.

Shannon Schaul (26:43.723)
Yes! Yes! Yes!

Future Of Selling (26:59.761)
you're going to keep that axe sharp so you can share that information with them as well. I think that's, yeah, I think that's phenomenal. What do you think about the importance of, I mean, I know you're on your own right now, but you led teams. How important are, we talked about kind of training, how important are 101s to you? I've recently heard some different opinions that, I'm gonna, at some point I'll probably do a video on this, but I recently heard an opinion on 101s that I just went like,

Shannon Schaul (27:05.549)
100%.

Shannon Schaul (27:14.178)
Mm-hmm.

Future Of Selling (27:29.917)
Really? It was completely contrary to my point of view. mean, where are you at? mean, is that an important, if you're running a revenue shop, I mean, if you're the CRO or, you know, whatever it is, is that important that you're meeting with your team or do you just kind of, you know, how do you do that?

Shannon Schaul (27:48.878)
yeah, I'm with you on this one. I have tons of thoughts on this. So I don't believe in meeting for the sake of meeting, right. So what I tried to do with my last team was connect prior, see if they had anything for me, or let them or let them know that I definitely have things for them and we would need.

Future Of Selling (28:08.765)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (28:13.437)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (28:17.093)
One of the things that I mentioned a little bit earlier is building that same rapport and trust with your team that you build with your prospects and clients, right? And when you're all remote, it's a little bit different. So I think one-on-ones are key for getting to know your team, letting them get to know you, building that trust. The cadence of them maybe don't have to be weekly. When you're in a business where the sales cycle is 12 day, minutes, it's really

I think they have value. I really do that connection. But if you don't have something to mean about don't waste someone's time, let them go be productive elsewhere. What'd you hear? What'd you hear?

Future Of Selling (28:57.651)
Yeah, gotcha.

Well, my point of view is, I mean, I think to me, one-on-ones are key, right? And again, cadence, okay, we can do differently, right? If it's a brand new team member, I'm probably doing it weekly. If they've been around a while, probably a couple of times a month. Yeah, less than that, you can do them less than that. And so there's two reasons why I think they're important. One, I think every...

Shannon Schaul (29:12.171)
Yeah, sure. Every other way.

Future Of Selling (29:27.443)
person is asking every team member is asking these three questions, whether they verbalize them or not. And it goes back what we talked about before. Can I trust you? Do you value me? And do I have a place here? I mean, we'll probably ask those three questions in every part of our life, family, everything else, right? You know, groups of friends, things like that. But I don't think those questions are ever fully answered. I think that's an

Shannon Schaul (29:46.946)
So true.

Future Of Selling (29:53.907)
Is it, like if I told my wife, I told you 10 years ago, I love you, why do you need to it again? Well, because that's just what you need to do. You know, I mean, you're continuing to reinforce that. And so I think the one-on-ones are a way to continually answer those questions. I mean, now you should be talking about development projects, you all the things you need to talk about, right? Sure. But I think that's where they, I think that's, I think that's where that comes in and why that's such an important, an important piece. um, I agree. Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (30:20.991)
I agree, that was well said.

Future Of Selling (30:23.803)
Anyway, I just wanted to pick your brain on that a bit. cool. Do you think that, think about curiosity a little bit, right? You think that tools and processes have made reps more compliant than curious? mean, there's a lot of tools out there now. Conqueror has a bunch of tools as well. That's what we do. So do you think they can tend to make

Shannon Schaul (30:45.431)
Right.

Future Of Selling (30:52.687)
sellers less curious? how do you, maybe a better question is how do you balance that?

Shannon Schaul (30:57.249)
Right? I mean, when you, you know, as a salesperson, when you hear tools and processes, it's, but they're needed, right? And yes, there are some incredible tools out there, like the tools that Conquer offers and others that are leveraging AI. And I love those tools to make processes more efficient, to make the sellers more efficient and to give them more time away from

entering data and info and looking at reports to actually prepping and being strategic in their approach with each client and prospect and their follow-up and all the things that are critical to that relationship side we talked about. So I'm a big fan of tools. Where I'm not a fan is, and you can weed out these sellers pretty quickly. They're the ones that are so consumed by the processes that bury in that and they use that as a crutch, I feel like, to not sell or hide from selling.

versus those where I would much rather have someone I have to micromanage to get their stuff in their CRM tool, because I know they're out doing other things. Like I, the best sales team I've had the opportunity to be a part of and work with was actually during the pandemic at Consumer Medical. And we, mean, our amazing boss, Manny, like anytime board meeting was coming up, he had to badger us to get Salesforce.

Future Of Selling (32:01.127)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (32:21.8)
Right.

Shannon Schaul (32:21.823)
up to speed and clean up. And we sold more like there and we transacted during the pandemic, like so successful. But it was a thorn in his side, but he would tell you, he's like, I'd rather badger you and get annoyed like one time, you know, a month here and there, then have to worry that you're spending too much time.

Future Of Selling (32:40.647)
Yeah, yeah, no, I got you. And I agree. mean, great sellers, that's not typically what they want to do is put in lots of data.

Shannon Schaul (32:50.059)
You and I worked with a great seller back in our time together. We won't name him here. And he didn't want to use that CRM tool ever. He wanted to be out with the people. And he was fantastic.

Future Of Selling (32:55.635)
Ha

Future Of Selling (33:01.906)
That's it. That's it. And I think that's the reason why the technology, the automation tools, even now that AI is making such a big impact, I think that's why that's so important because companies like Conquer sales and engagement platforming, we're trying, basically what we're doing is we're taking all the friction-filled activities that people don't want to do, notes and all the stuff.

Shannon Schaul (33:12.109)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Schaul (33:27.682)
Yes.

Future Of Selling (33:28.675)
and automating that so that sellers can spend their time on the things that matter building trust, building credibility, relationships, know, solving the

Shannon Schaul (33:37.845)
And also making sure leaders get what they need out of the tool, right? So it's this great harmonious, like what Conker does and others, these tools make it harmonious. So I have what I need to do my budget forecast, report to the board, et cetera, without bogging my team down and report.

Future Of Selling (33:54.823)
Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Well, let's kind of think about 2025 and looking forward just a bit and talk specifically about kind of the skills that set, you know, sellers apart in 2025 and moving forward. So what do you think's the most important human skills for sellers today? do you I mean, if you were like I was working on your team and I said, hey, what do I need to work? You what do I need to be the best at? What do you think the most important human skills are?

Shannon Schaul (34:26.285)
But one thing I tell my team and I think one thing, not to toot my own horn, but one thing that I've known for and have invested heavily in is really getting to know the people that are your clients and prospects. And my world's a little different. I've sold through what we call channel partners. So through health plans, brokers and consultants in my world that are relationships that take me to their employers. But

It's really getting to know those people. like going back to what we talked about, the small talk, whether it's where they live, the weather, they're going on a vacation, they had a baby, they're having a baby, the baptism, like the soccer game for their kid, the track meet, I talked to someone, whatever they share with you, document that, remember that. And the next time you engage with them, ask them about it.

Shoot him a text and say, I hope the travels went safe and your daughter crushed it at the track meet. Just really being thoughtful, but yet sincere. Don't overdo it, don't be cheesy. If you don't mean it, don't do it. But building those relationships and being thoughtful, that would be the number one human skill that I would share.

Future Of Selling (35:27.261)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (35:43.185)
Yeah. Well, and I like what you said about that, right? Because somebody could take that and go, that's the key. That's the trick right there. Just shoot people, but it can't become just a tactical, it can't become a tactic, right? It has to be real. And maybe if you don't care, maybe you got to figure out why you don't care. You know? Yeah. you don't mean it, don't send it. Don't do it.

Shannon Schaul (35:58.005)
No.

Shannon Schaul (36:05.675)
Right, right, right. And maybe that person doesn't want you to do that or what have you. And again, yes, let's be clear. I'm not saying you need to text everyone in Badrum. And maybe you don't talk to them for another three months, but remember that. Go back to your notes. What did I take down? And tie it back to that original call. Not just the business aspect of it, which you need to, but the personal as well. That means so much to people.

Future Of Selling (36:12.754)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (36:32.093)
Yeah, agreed. Again, thinking in 2025 going forward, what do you wish more sales leaders focused in on regarding team development? What should be their number one target right now from a team development standpoint?

Shannon Schaul (36:51.371)
I think it's investing in the training and coaching that helps with that network building, nurturing your network, like consultative strategy and all of those things. You know, I, I always remember that, I think it was the container store that had the 1 equals 3, right? 1 great person equals 3 good people. And I would so much rather, if I was building a team today, I would so much rather have like 2 or 3 solid people than 6 or 7.

Future Of Selling (37:08.349)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (37:21.021)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (37:21.141)
And I would rather spend that money, that budget, to invest in them and, and help train them and coach them and make it ongoing. Training is not one and done. And it's not, I just think we've lost sight of it. So, and I know it's easier said than done, and it's costly and a-messing, but there are ways to pull. Some people will kill me for this, too, but, know, marketing budget. There's a lot of shows and things, and there's ways to pull from that to bring that in.

Future Of Selling (37:48.071)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (37:49.334)
And there's a lot of great ways to market yourself and your product now. mean, people make fun of me all the time because you know I'm an active user on LinkedIn and people tease me. But every time they tease me, that means they're following me. They know where I was. They know who I was with and they know what's going on and they know what company I'm working for. So there's ways to budget and make that a priority. And I know I sound like a broken record, but I do think we've gotten away from that.

Future Of Selling (38:05.543)
Yeah, no, it's a, yeah, it's a.

Future Of Selling (38:13.585)
Yeah, but you know, to me, you're not it's not a broken record, right? It's the importance of growth. I mean, you think about, you know, why do people work? Well, you know, they work because they, you know, they want to make money and that's completely understandable. We have bills to pay and families to raise and all those things, right? They want a good working environment. but this is probably an overstatement. But I've thought a lot lately that what's the greatest gift that I can give someone who is on my team? And to me, it's a

It's a fascination with growth. It's the belief that they can grow and then give them the opportunity to grow. mean, that's that's that that that's, you know, give them a bonus. They're going to spend it. I'm going to spend whoever it is. Right. I mean, that's great. And that's good. But but that's a temporary fix. It's a temporary shot. But if you can get someone on the growth path, that's a path that never stops. And it's a path that will take them to wherever they want to go into the.

Shannon Schaul (38:50.733)
Yep.

Future Of Selling (39:11.667)
know, whoever they want to be.

Shannon Schaul (39:14.047)
And you are so right. And all those studies, I don't have any to quote today, but Gen Z and Alpha coming up in the ranks here, when they're surveyed and you see it, yes, they, money is not the most important thing to them, right? It's what is, how are you going to invest in me personally? And what is my growth path? Like it's, it's changed. And so you have to show them you're investing them. And it's not just training.

Future Of Selling (39:35.389)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (39:42.912)
As leaders, it's ultimately our responsibility, whether there's budget or not, that we need to invest in those people. We need to help them find coaches and mentors and others within the organization, not just ourselves, so that they can grow and understand broadly. So it's, it's a, it takes a village, right? And all that we do, personally and professionally.

Future Of Selling (40:00.743)
Yeah, completely agree. Cool. Well, I know we're getting close to time, but I always like to kind of find out a little bit about you, right, toward the end. So let me kind of give you kind of a quick hit list. You don't have to spend a ton of time on this, but I got a few questions for you to find out little bit more about you as a leader and maybe a little bit more about you as a person. So question number one, what makes Shannon come alive?

Shannon Schaul (40:09.751)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Schaul (40:32.973)
So what makes me come alive? Being around people. I'm so social, Rick. You know me. Like, I love, I feed off being around family and friends and all of that. The reason I started laughing is a little secret fact and people are gonna judge me and probably not like me, but I like really do love reality TV and

I know you can judge but you know what a lot of Mike I found out a lot of my clients are in the same boat and we even do some lunches around it so there but no but what makes me come alive is like being around like family and friends and I'm so lucky I live in a high-rise and have so many great neighbors and so playing pickleball with them and traveling and doing all these things like I just that really makes me come

Future Of Selling (41:02.803)
Alright, bye.

Future Of Selling (41:23.282)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (41:23.467)
And then in work, it's the same thing. Like nothing's better than when I'm out like in front of a client or speaking or doing something like that. It's so invigorating. I love it.

Future Of Selling (41:25.683)
Okay.

Future Of Selling (41:32.883)
Yeah. Got it. Got it. So who has been who do you think has been the biggest influence on your on your life?

Shannon Schaul (41:42.446)
I mean, this is cliche for a lot, but definitely my parents. They have been the biggest, huge supporters and advocates. I'm lucky that my dad, he was an entrepreneur and so, and he's sales at heart. So I kind of followed in his path and he's given me little nuggets and words of wisdom over the years that I've, I've carried with me. And so,

They definitely have been the biggest influence. And then I've been really fortunate that I have had some amazing leaders that have instilled, like, I feel like I've taken equality away from every leader I've had, whether they light up a room or they're a great listener or they're empathetic or, you know, and you work with one of the great leaders I got to work for. And he was one of the most fun and collaborative leaders I've had. So I try to take all those things.

Future Of Selling (42:15.473)
Easy.

Shannon Schaul (42:38.123)
and remind myself that those are things I need to have and give them back to my team. And it's hard sometimes.

Future Of Selling (42:43.505)
Yeah, I think that's great though. That's great. How do you get through the challenging and hard times? I mean, we all have them, right? that, you know, it's just not as, for whatever reason, a week or a day or a season is not as good as another. So how do you get through the challenging and hard times?

Shannon Schaul (43:01.077)
I think leaning on those that you're closest to. think when it's something professional, like those colleagues and former coworkers and people that I trust implicitly when I have a challenge, whether it be now in my own business or leading a team and other things I've done, it's going to those dear friends that I've made in the space and.

running it by them and asking for their advice and being open to learning and applying that. And I think the same goes personally, leaning on your people. I need people to help me through the challenging and tough times. I'm not someone that can sit in isolation or I'll stew too much. I get in my head.

Future Of Selling (43:33.565)
Yeah. Yeah.

Future Of Selling (43:42.931)
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, good deal. What are you reading right now or watching or listening that's stretching you? It sounds like you're taking some training, right, on Sales Engine, but anything else, maybe something you're reading, watching, listening to that you recommend to someone?

Shannon Schaul (43:57.646)
Yeah, I just started this book. Oh, bear with me. I got to look up the exact title. The hospitality book. It's on the bestseller list right now. Shoot. I don't know if I'm going to be able to find it right now. I think it's called Unreasonable Hospitality. Yeah, it is.

Future Of Selling (44:10.479)
Okay.

Future Of Selling (44:21.157)
I think I've heard that author on a podcast.

Shannon Schaul (44:24.713)
Yes, and I just started it, but it I'm it hooked me right away. And basically the concept is from the restaurant industry and built, you know, top award winning restaurants. But basically it goes down to obviously the food has to be good. The service has to be good. But the hospitality has to be what they remember. And that's the experience. And it's the relationships you build with the customer that bring them back. And so

Future Of Selling (44:48.37)
Exactly.

Shannon Schaul (44:52.685)
So that's the book I'm reading right now. And I love it. I'm also a big Mel Robbins fan. And so The Let Them Theory was another book I read recently about we can't control others and what they do and how they feel. So kind of let them be them. But you were.

Future Of Selling (45:12.68)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (45:14.637)
doesn't mean like you're not in the fault or you're not wrong per se, but like let them feel what they're feeling, do what they do and you course correct on your side. And it's okay. Like you don't have to take everything personally and be sensitive because I'm also sensitive.

Future Of Selling (45:27.613)
Yeah, I've seen that book. I've heard about that book. I've not read not actually not read either one. So those are good. Those are good for me. So

Shannon Schaul (45:34.549)
Yeah, yeah, think unreasonable hospitality would be up your alley and it's I'm doing the audio book on that. It's really engaging and

Future Of Selling (45:41.563)
Okay, good. All right, well, I'm looking for a new audiobook, so that's great. Last question, what's the biggest lesson learned that has really made a difference in your journey or kind of your just success overall? Any one thing that stands out to you more than another?

Shannon Schaul (45:46.476)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (45:58.829)
Hmm.

Shannon Schaul (46:04.193)
Hit pause.

Future Of Selling (46:05.939)
Okay.

Shannon Schaul (46:07.322)
I am.

I'm very passionate. get very excited. And I think what I've learned over the years, good lessons and bad, is to not have knee jerk reactions. Good or bad, right? Like something comes in and you want to reply, it's greater, it's bad and it makes you mad, or it's something that's upsetting you. And I think, you know, 10 plus years ago, I reacted to everything when you knew me and I took things personally and all of that stuff. And I think

Future Of Selling (46:22.227)
Okay.

Shannon Schaul (46:39.945)
Now, I've just really learned, like, hit the pause button, chill out. It's not about me. And, you know, watch my words and reactions, because there's other, there's other people watching me. And I'm not proud of some of the things that I did in the past, either, and how I reacted. But luckily, I had really good coaches and mentors that made me see that. And, you know, and so that's, hit pause. That's one of my, my faves.

Future Of Selling (46:46.151)
Yeah. Right.

Future Of Selling (46:55.271)
Yeah, now that...

Future Of Selling (47:09.159)
Yeah, I like that. And then it's a really good one. And it made me think of one, you know, and we both know Ira, right? We both worked for Ira at one point. in one of the things he taught me years ago was because, you get the emails and whatever it may be, right? You feel this urgency that I got to do it right now. And he would always say, just give it the night. You can deal with it. Do it with the morning. Think about it tonight. Let it bake a little bit. It's OK. You know, I mean.

Shannon Schaul (47:30.22)
Yes.

Shannon Schaul (47:35.47)
that calm, cool and collectedness that Ira has. And I talked to one of my favorite bosses I've ever had a couple of days ago and he was the same way. I mean, just that, okay, let's take a beat, hit pause, think about it and then react. And isn't it amazing how you would have reacted in that moment versus even an hour later, let alone like the next day, changes everything.

Future Of Selling (47:52.039)
It is.

Future Of Selling (47:58.451)
Yeah, it is. And as a leader, it's so important to be able to demonstrate that, right? Because, you know, and every now and you're to get a little freaked out about something and every now and then it's okay to react, but it's got to be, you got to, yeah, I mean, you got to be able to kind of control the frequency of something like that. So anyway, great, great lesson learned.

Shannon Schaul (48:04.534)
Yes!

Shannon Schaul (48:08.269)
we're not perfect as much as we think we are.

Shannon Schaul (48:18.829)
100%.

Future Of Selling (48:22.011)
Okay, well, let's talk. I always like to end with some takeaways, right? So great conversation today. Appreciate you kind of sharing where you've been, what you've been doing, what you've learned. If I was a chief revenue officer or some sort of revenue leader, right, director of sales, customer success, whatever it may be, and I was new, and maybe I'm just listening to this podcast, I wrote down a few things, but what are the top three things that you would leave with somebody? Think about this, think about that, think about that.

Shannon Schaul (48:36.023)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Schaul (48:52.671)
Number one, would say invest in your people. So the training, the coaching, and the right training and coaching like we talked about, really doing a flip and focusing on that personal side and the consultative selling and all those things we've talked about multiple times. So invest in your people. And I think a lot of people say, do invest in my people and I give them 401k and benefits and we pay a great salary and they have a great comp package, but it's far more than that.

Future Of Selling (48:56.369)
Yes, sir.

Shannon Schaul (49:22.559)
as we know. I think the next thing would be empower people to use their voice like we talked about. help your team recognize that, you know, if they're successful and they're out in the market, like they know more than a lot of people, maybe more than you, you can't be out as much as a leader. And so really create that comfort zone for them to be

Future Of Selling (49:31.155)
Okay.

Shannon Schaul (49:49.313)
to share ideas and be vocal and bring things back and it's your responsibility to create that forum for them to do it and bring the right people together.

Future Of Selling (49:55.421)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (49:58.572)
And then the last one.

Shannon Schaul (50:04.693)
Lead with empathy, act with empathy, and be sincere in all you do. Make people trust you as best as you can.

Future Of Selling (50:06.547)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (50:13.245)
Yeah, yeah, makes perfect sense. I had the same three. That has never happened, by the way.

Shannon Schaul (50:20.919)
Sympatico. That's what we got from sharing a wall, little cube wall for so long. I'm just kidding.

Future Of Selling (50:27.399)
That's it. That's it. I know it's awesome, but those are great, right? So invest in people and training, coaching, coaching the right thing, doing the right thing. Speak up, help people speak up and use their voice, create a comfort zone for them to be able to do that, a safe zone. And their relationships are, are, are keen. And that's kind of, you know, they lead with the empathy piece, gain that trust. So those are incredible, incredible. So cool, cool. Shannon Shaw.

Shannon Schaul (50:51.873)
Yeah.

Shannon Schaul (50:55.348)
awesome.

Future Of Selling (50:56.807)
Thank you so much for being here today and just for spending some time with us. We really do appreciate it.

Shannon Schaul (51:03.071)
Rick, thank you so much. It is awesome to be on here with you. And it was a lot of fun. Thank you for the opportunity and love what you're doing at Conquer as well.

Future Of Selling (51:15.943)
right, thank you. Appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon.

Shannon Schaul (51:19.094)
Okay, thanks, friend. Take care. Bye.

Future Of Selling (51:20.413)
Correct.