Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
HUNGRY is the podcast for Challenger Food and Drink brands wanting to pour gasoline on their growth. Fancy being kind? Want to feel warm inside? Please hit the Subscribe button. You’d really, really make my week.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:01:23
Ivan Orkin
New York just doesn't have good pizza anymore.
The best Neapolitan pizzaiolos are all in Japan now.
00:00:05:07 - 00:00:07:16
Ivan Orkin
If you ask, "What's the real difference between a good
slice and a bad slice in New York?" It's the...
00:00:10:22 - 00:00:13:11
Ivan Orkin
there's so many different ways to make money nowadays. Making delicious food is the fucking easy part.
They'll say Ray Kroc screwed them out of their business. He may have,
but he knew how to scale. That's just business.
My advice on that is have a good (????)
Ivan Orkin
I've met too many people who fancy themselves artists. And I think that's silly.
Chefs aren't artists. Chefs are fucking ditch diggers, man.
Art doesn't put food on the table.
00:00:32:08 - 00:00:32:22
Dan Pope
With ramen, there's not really any rules, I think you said.
00:00:34:14 - 00:00:34:24
Ivan Orkin
No,
00:00:34:24 - 00:00:37:01
Ivan Orkin
it's just endless ways. And in Japan,
if you ask them, they won't tell you.
It's always a big secret.
00:00:39:19 - 00:00:43:03
Ivan Orkin
Every once in a while we would call it pulling the gaijin card.
Gaijin card is, "I would fuck off, pal." Am I doing it?
When I was a young man in Japan, I'd say I did that all the time.
It can piss people off.
00:00:51:01 - 00:00:53:15
Dan Pope
So English breakfast, American breakfast, English breakfast.
00:00:53:15 - 00:00:55:00
Ivan Orkin
Every fucking time. Really?
It's genius.
00:01:01:14 - 00:01:05:07
Dan Pope
How do you like London compared to New York?
00:01:05:09 - 00:01:07:18
Ivan Orkin
Well, I like them both. Yeah, well, it's really great.
Dan Pope
The difference. What you say is differences.
Ivan Orkin
I don't know, they're totally different. You guys are British and we're American. Yeah.
00:01:15:19 - 00:01:33:23
Dan Pope
Yeah. It is. Was it the, there's an Oscar, I think it's an Oscar Wilde quote, which is, "We're two nations divided by the same language." Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is so true. Yeah. So bang on the money. But, yeah. Thanks for doing this. You're super relaxed. Conversation will ebb and flow. Okay. I really want to get into, obviously, Japan.
00:01:34:00 - 00:01:53:05
Dan Pope
Sure. I went there. It's weird. I was saying that I went in 2019, went to your ramen place in New York, and then in September, I went to Japan for the World Cup, Rugby World Cup. And I was like, just blown away. So now we're doing this few years later as a full circle thing.
00:01:53:05 - 00:01:58:12
Dan Pope
You studied Japanese? Yes. At uni or college. Did you do Japanese literature as well? What was that?
00:01:58:13 - 00:02:01:06
Ivan Orkin
I studied everything, yeah. Literature, history.
00:02:01:08 - 00:02:09:04
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Amazing. Yeah, because that's some of the stuff I want to get into. Right? Like, Murakami is one of my favorite writers. Yeah, yeah. There's two. There's,
00:02:09:06 - 00:02:13:13
Ivan Orkin
I'm much older than Murakami. Actually, I'm not much older. He's a little older than I am. But his writing
00:02:13:16 - 00:02:14:01
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:02:14:01 - 00:02:20:11
Ivan Orkin
became well known after I was in college because I don't think I think his first book didn't come out until '84.
00:02:20:17 - 00:02:21:03
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:02:21:03 - 00:02:22:03
Ivan Orkin
Or '80 maybe.
00:02:22:03 - 00:02:30:08
Ivan Orkin
Anyway, he wasn't a renowned writer I think until the '90s. Really? Yeah, I became, I read, I read the old writers. I read Mishima,
00:02:30:10 - 00:02:31:06
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:02:31:08 - 00:02:34:06
Ivan Orkin
you know, and Tanizaki and,
00:02:34:08 - 00:02:42:07
Dan Pope
What was, I mean, we can just roll straight in, like, what were some of those? Because, because there's two. There's two Murakami. Haruki Murakami and Ryu Murakami.
00:02:42:09 - 00:02:45:08
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Do you read Ryu Murakami who writes sort of horror, mate?
00:02:45:09 - 00:02:49:02
Dan Pope
Yes. This is really interesting. In In the Miso Soup.
00:02:49:02 - 00:02:49:24
Ivan Orkin
Yes, I read it.
00:02:50:01 - 00:03:01:09
Dan Pope
It's a pretty, pretty creepy, fucking creepy. But really like his, his writing's so lurid. Yeah. In your face. But, yeah. What were some of the ones you were reading? So when it was just,
00:03:01:09 - 00:03:20:10
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, I, my, my thesis was on The Temple of the Golden Pavilion by Mishima. Yeah. About, a monk acolyte who goes crazy and burns down the temple. And, and you know, he was a real character. He was, yeah, a Japanese nationalist.
00:03:20:10 - 00:03:20:16
Dan Pope
And,
00:03:20:18 - 00:03:26:16
Ivan Orkin
yeah, was very into sort of the old, old style of Japan.
00:02:26:18 - 00:03:28:08
Dan Pope
So it,
00:03:28:10 - 00:03:32:01
Ivan Orkin
that he ended up committing ritual suicide, you know?
00:03:32:01 - 00:03:33:10
Dan Pope
Really? Yeah.
00:03:33:12 - 00:03:37:23
Ivan Orkin
Wow. But, but I read that in college. I read all
00:03:37:23 - 00:03:50:00
Dan Pope
those. Yeah. What are some of the big learnings you took from that? That whole sort of encyclopedia, but that kind of, yeah, library of books you read. Reading?
00:03:50:02 - 00:03:53:16
Ivan Orkin
I wonder if I learned anything, to tell you the truth. Interesting. I think I like them.
00:03:53:21 - 00:03:54:06
Dan Pope
Yeah, I,
00:03:54:06 - 00:04:05:21
Ivan Orkin
read them all. And I've always been a big book person. Yeah, I've read a real lot since I was a kid. Yeah. And I, I didn't really, I studied Japanese because it was easy.
00:04:05:23 - 00:04:08:08
Dan Pope
Japanese was easy. Japanese was easy because it was
00:04:08:08 - 00:04:31:02
Ivan Orkin
the easy major. I really, yeah, the requirements were super slim. Yeah. Really? Yeah. I wanted to major in English or history, but the requirements were, were pretty sick. You know, you had to read, you know, yeah, yeah, a dozen books that were, you know, a thousand pages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, 20 to 50 page papers. And you had to, and it was just sort of, I was, you know, very hyperactive.
00:04:31:02 - 00:04:49:03
Ivan Orkin
And the idea of sitting still and writing really long papers and reading lots and lots and lots of long books was a little daunting for me. I mean, I'm, I'm not kidding. I'm sure that was, that's only half the story. I was very, I really did enjoy Japanese language. And I mean, I still to this day, I love speaking Japanese.
00:04:49:03 - 00:04:52:10
Ivan Orkin
I mean, I was very interested in it and always learning more.
00:04:52:10 - 00:05:09:17
Dan Pope
And because they've, again, I've interviewed someone who spent a lot of time in Japan just a couple of years ago. He's got a brand over here. And she was saying, the Japanese have words for, for, I think they've got like, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not the expert here, but they may have a word for like walking through the woods when the bluebells are blossoming.
00:05:09:17 - 00:05:14:19
Dan Pope
I think they've got some words that we don't even, can't even see, even in the English language.
00:05:14:22 - 00:05:29:01
Ivan Orkin
Well, they have words also that describe a lot of things in one word, whereas in English we use a lot of words to explain something. Whereas in Japanese you might have just one word or one phrase to explain something much broader.
00:05:29:03 - 00:05:32:06
Dan Pope
What are some of those be like? Is there any specific examples?
00:05:32:08 - 00:05:33:12
Ivan Orkin
I don't know. I'll think about
00:05:33:12 - 00:05:58:01
Dan Pope
it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. They have like one word which opens up so much. The, yeah, we'll roll into this. So you're reading all this stuff at college, just reading all this, you know, Japanese literature, poetry, history. When you land in Japan, what were the surprising things? You have all this, you're in the States reading all this stuff.
00:05:58:01 - 00:06:00:20
Dan Pope
What were the things that shocked you when you actually got there?
00:06:00:22 - 00:06:02:11
Ivan Orkin
It was so clean.
00:06:02:13 - 00:06:03:05
Dan Pope
Okay.
00:06:03:07 - 00:06:27:13
Ivan Orkin
That was the thing that, yeah, made me. It was very clean and very organized. Yeah. I seem to really like that, so I like how structured everything is there. Everything, everybody waits in line. Everything is orderly. Everybody respects each other's space. And even though I'm a New Yorker, New York's almost opposite. And even though I can be that way in New York very easily.
00:06:27:15 - 00:06:33:24
Ivan Orkin
I can be a tough guy. I can be, I can push my way through. I can, I can do that. I think I prefer the Japanese way.
00:06:34:05 - 00:06:35:01
Dan Pope
Right.
00:06:35:03 - 00:06:47:01
Ivan Orkin
I like, I like the way of, of sort of being a little more peaceful and, respecting each other's space, and which I learned to do effortlessly over the years.
00:06:47:04 - 00:06:49:06
Dan Pope
And did you go straight into Tokyo or did you?
00:06:49:07 - 00:06:52:03
Ivan Orkin
I've always been to Tokyo from day one.
00:06:52:05 - 00:06:57:01
Dan Pope
Because, what is the difference between the cities? I know you've got to say they're all really different.
00:06:57:01 - 00:07:16:02
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, they're all really different. I mean, the main, the main ones people talk about is, you know, Tokyo and Osaka and that. Yeah, are really Kansai, which is, you know, there at Kyoto and Osaka is Kanto, which is where Tokyo is. Yeah, they're very, very different. And each people who live in those areas talk about their, you know, that they're different.
00:07:16:02 - 00:07:22:07
Ivan Orkin
Osaka is much more like the West, and people are much more comfortable being honest and,
00:07:22:09 - 00:07:22:21
Dan Pope
Really.
00:07:22:22 - 00:07:33:13
Ivan Orkin
yeah, they're a little more intense and a little louder and a little more comfortable speaking their mind where I think Tokyo is a little more reserved and, a little bit different.
00:07:33:15 - 00:07:37:03
Dan Pope
Would you say that the Osaka is closer to New York than in that regard?
00:07:37:03 - 00:07:39:04
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, yeah, a little bit, interesting. Very different.
00:07:39:04 - 00:07:40:05
Dan Pope
But yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:40:11 - 00:07:41:22
Ivan Orkin
But I think that,
00:07:41:24 - 00:07:46:05
Dan Pope
Yes. And then so I went to Kyoto, which was I thought was super far away.
00:07:46:05 - 00:07:46:23
Ivan Orkin
I'm a big fan.
00:07:47:04 - 00:07:54:10
Dan Pope
Yeah. What's that? How is that sort of perceived in, in, in Japan versus the other two cities. Is that like, well, I mean,
00:07:54:12 - 00:08:00:08
Ivan Orkin
Kyoto has been an important city for culture and for tourism for thousands of years.
00:08:00:08 - 00:08:00:16
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:08:00:16 - 00:08:22:17
Ivan Orkin
So it's, you know, I mean, people in Asia in general, you know, they've had a much longer history than we've, even, even England, which, you know, we used to go back and then, you know, and then where England sort of stops, you can then continue with Romans and, yeah, you know, there's a really long history of, of, of in the West here.
00:08:22:17 - 00:08:25:10
Ivan Orkin
But even when you say it's a long history, it's, I don't know, it's,
00:08:25:12 - 00:08:26:05
Dan Pope
In do you think two
00:08:26:05 - 00:08:42:00
Ivan Orkin
thousand years I suppose. But you know, when you talk about civilized, maybe it's 500 or less. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As you know, in, in, in, in Asia I think it was more civilized than, than in the West for a longer period of time. Wow.
00:08:42:02 - 00:08:54:08
Dan Pope
And so what are some of those, like if you, do you mind going into the history of that. So I find it endlessly fascinating. Like you said, you studied that at college. What were some of those the big learnings you took from that period?
00:08:54:10 - 00:09:25:21
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. I mean, I just, I mean, I learned the history. I, you know, the, it was always intriguing the way the way Japan was set up, especially the sort of that that last 4 or 500 years. And, you know, the, the sort of ending of samurai and, and sort of slowly but surely kind of, it's never been westernized, but I think, you know, the, the, the power was slowly but surely kind of taken by one person and, and the whole, whole country was sort of standardized and, and,
00:09:25:23 - 00:09:31:11
Dan Pope
You didn't they have what was the, when they isolated it off, what was that called? The Sakoku period or something?
00:09:32:16 - 00:09:34:04
Dan Pope
I'm going to, yeah, butcher, butcher this,
00:09:34:07 - 00:09:36:16
Ivan Orkin
when, when we, yeah, when, when they closed.
00:09:36:20 - 00:09:39:00
Dan Pope
Yeah. What was the reason for doing that? You know?
00:09:39:04 - 00:09:40:19
Ivan Orkin
What do you mean? The West is poison.
00:09:41:00 - 00:09:47:20
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand that. What? So, but how did they actually, like, enforce that? Was that through?
00:09:47:22 - 00:09:54:12
Ivan Orkin
I think probably because at that time there weren't that many Westerners able to come with big boats with cannons.
00:09:54:12 - 00:09:55:13
Dan Pope
Right? I mean, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:55:13 - 00:10:21:00
Ivan Orkin
I think, Japan was officially opened when enough Westerners came with enough big boats with enough big guns. Yeah. And you know, when there was one boat or three boats, you know, the Japanese were strong enough to say, "We'll kill you, all right." If there's 20 boats, then it's harder to do that. And I think, you know, when you look at the the history of the West taking over different indigenous cultures, it's because we had gunpowder and they didn't.
00:10:21:02 - 00:10:23:07
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Simplify it. Yeah.
00:10:23:07 - 00:10:24:01
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah. Of course.
00:10:24:02 - 00:10:41:15
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, I think so. I think I think back in the, you know, in the, in the 1600s when they pushed against the West, yeah, opening it up, they were in a position to fight back. Okay. Right. And I don't, yeah, I don't, and I think, I think by when Perry came, I think it was already, you know, it
00:10:41:15 - 00:10:42:05
Dan Pope
was already.
00:10:42:07 - 00:10:44:11
Ivan Orkin
Too hard for them to fight back.
00:10:44:13 - 00:11:02:11
Dan Pope
The, so, so you see, you're in, you get to Japan and I've watched your Chef's Table documentary which, I think is astoundingly wonderful, taught me that the, the sort of the first steps you took to actually get the first, your first place open.
00:11:02:13 - 00:11:21:14
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, I, I just sort of decided to open a ramen shop. It took about nine months to find a location. Nine months or so. Yeah, to find a location. I mean, opening a ramen shop was relatively easy. I mean, it's, you know, it's just a, it's just a room with a, with a cement floor and a drain in the middle.
00:11:21:14 - 00:11:33:01
Ivan Orkin
I mean, it's not, you know, the, I didn't, you don't need an Ansul system. You don't, yeah, you don't need an HVAC. You know, you don't really, I mean, I had a, I had a big metal box with a fan.
00:11:33:03 - 00:11:33:11
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:11:33:11 - 00:11:37:15
Ivan Orkin
That's the hood. Yeah. Here in London or New York, you'd never get away with it.
00:11:37:21 - 00:11:38:14
Dan Pope
Oh, really?
00:11:38:14 - 00:11:59:16
Ivan Orkin
Oh, yeah. Interesting there. Special. You know, you need a special system. But, and I'm sure if you open, want to open in a, in the middle, in the heart of Tokyo, in an office building. I'm sure there's ways. I was just an old, old building. Yeah. And I was in the suburbs. Yeah. So I don't think it mattered as much.
00:11:59:18 - 00:12:06:23
Ivan Orkin
So it was, you know, it was, it was probably 60, 70,000 dollars to open my first ramen shop. Wow.
00:12:06:23 - 00:12:19:16
Dan Pope
So which is. And then what were you doing to get, like, I know you, because I've seen the documentary, what's your line? The way what were you doing to get people in? I know you, like, create this amazing product. Was it literally just the product and then what else was? Well, we got buzz.
00:12:19:16 - 00:12:40:17
Ivan Orkin
I mean, we, yeah, we, we, we, we got the sort of number one ramen writer to come in and he ate and really liked the food. So he wrote about the shop and said it was good. Yeah. And so, you know, I mean, listen, I mean, now in 2025, a bunch of white dudes running around Japan is just now normal.
00:12:40:22 - 00:12:41:15
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:12:41:17 - 00:12:55:24
Ivan Orkin
It's just not a big deal. I mean, you see, you see all different colored faces in businesses and you see all kinds of people doing stuff. And when I was there, you know, you couldn't just walk into a ramen shop and say, "Oh, can I have a job?"
00:12:56:04 - 00:12:56:14
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:56:14 - 00:13:05:12
Ivan Orkin
They'd just look at you like a crazy person. Wow. And, and plus, I didn't want to. I wasn't going to work in a ramen shop for two years to learn how to make ramen. I didn't think I needed to.
00:13:05:12 - 00:13:07:03
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, to make ramen.
00:13:07:05 - 00:13:17:18
Ivan Orkin
So, I just didn't really want to ask. So I didn't know anybody well enough to say, "Could you just teach me a little bit about ramen?" Which, you know, when I started the shop, I was already cooking for 15 years.
00:13:17:18 - 00:13:18:09
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:13:18:11 - 00:13:31:19
Ivan Orkin
I assumed that I needed some tips and some help. Yeah. Standing, I didn't really think I needed to apprentice for 2 or 3 years to make ramen. I mean, I basically taught myself to make ramen in a couple months.
00:13:31:21 - 00:13:40:24
Dan Pope
Well, that's what I think, because you, the name just escaped me, where you worked that restaurant in New York. Because I think,
00:13:41:04 - 00:13:41:16
Ivan Orkin
Lutèce.
00:13:41:16 - 00:14:03:10
Dan Pope
Lutèce. Yeah. So I think I said you, you, that's where you learned, like, the hospitality. It was more than just cooking. What are some of the principles you took from that time? That period of your life? More, less so about the cooking, but more the hospitality in that sort of that part that when you went to Japan and opened up your place, you kind of imbued that on the customers.
00:14:03:12 - 00:14:19:09
Ivan Orkin
Well, you know, when I was going to ramen shops in Japan, I found a lot of them to be sort of a little bit unfriendly. Yeah. A little bit down and dirty, you know, maybe, like, you know, taking your little kids to a chip shop somewhere, you know, where, you know, they don't make a ton of money if you don't order food.
00:14:19:09 - 00:14:44:01
Ivan Orkin
And they would sort of, you know, roll their eyes at coming in with just a bunch of kids. And, it wasn't always that friendly. And, yeah, it wasn't always that clean. And so I really wanted to have a clean and friendly shop for children and women and anybody who came in. Yeah. I mean, the chef I worked with at Lutèce, you know, is really famous for his food, but he was also, really nice to all the guests.
00:14:44:01 - 00:15:04:20
Ivan Orkin
And he was famous for walking around the dining room and talking to everybody. And so it made a big impression on me. Yeah. The way he would comport himself, even though at the time, you know, he was one of the most famous chefs in the world. I mean, he was really, really successful and really famous. And yeah, it was a four-star restaurant and it was just legendary.
00:15:04:20 - 00:15:09:09
Ivan Orkin
But he was still, even if you were a young couple, he was still very friendly and nice to you.
00:15:09:09 - 00:15:10:23
Dan Pope
He knew he'd be that. He's like,
00:15:10:23 - 00:15:20:10
Ivan Orkin
It was there every single day for the 30 years he was in the, in the, in the kitchen every single day. Yeah, he, I don't, he didn't take one day off in 30 years.
00:15:20:16 - 00:15:24:14
Dan Pope
Yeah. What are the principles that you learned from him do you think in terms of hospitality? Well, yeah.
00:15:24:16 - 00:15:43:14
Ivan Orkin
The fact that he always had a smile, he was always very welcoming. He was, you know, he had hands-on to to see what was going on and, yeah. And, it was, it was a very regal restaurant. But like I said, you know, he would have the, you know, the president, the president of France would be eating there, but there would also be a kid who just graduated college with his girlfriend.
00:15:43:20 - 00:15:48:10
Ivan Orkin
And so, you know, quite egalitarian. And he was, he was nice to everybody.
00:15:48:12 - 00:16:08:13
Dan Pope
Interesting. Yeah. I want to talk, and you have, us, ask this delicately, we don't have to go here. But I think in the documentary, when you talk about, you had your son Isaac. Yeah. Was that? Who are you? Just on the fence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you say he's almost 30 now. Yeah. That's, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that period when you lost your first wife.
00:16:08:13 - 00:16:23:10
Dan Pope
Yeah. And a lot of people listen to this, and there's, everyone's going through something hard, right? I'd love to know how you navigated that. And because in the documentary, you kind of get like a, you know, kind of the minute, but like, if you could sink into that and how did you navigate and get through that really hard period.
00:16:23:10 - 00:16:29:21
Dan Pope
Because I feel like there's, there's that moment and it's just you and, and Isaac, can you like, "What the fuck do we do now?" you know?
00:16:30:00 - 00:16:48:02
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Well, I mean, I was very lucky. I lived in Brooklyn, and my mom and dad lived three blocks away. Yeah. And so, you know, I was, I was, they had someone who he could hang out with when I, when things were hard or just hang out with my family. And, I have a big family and they were all super supportive.
00:16:48:02 - 00:17:11:06
Ivan Orkin
I have a lot of friends who were also super helpful, had a nanny, and, and at the time, so she was also, I wasn't all of a sudden completely left alone. Yeah. I'm also just a real, I was always dialed in on being a dad, so, I mean, and always been pretty good at being one, so, you know, very comfortable cleaning or cooking or doing whatever needs to be done.
00:17:11:10 - 00:17:32:02
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. So I know how to do it. So, I mean, even though my wife died, I, it wasn't like I was, you know, always out with the guys playing golf and didn't know what to do with a child. Yes, I had help to take care of my kid. So, yeah, I think, and, and, and, you know, when she died, the only thing I felt I had to do was take care of our son.
00:17:32:04 - 00:17:54:02
Ivan Orkin
And so I was very committed. I think I felt like part of my connection to her absence was this, this desire to make sure that I kept my promise to her when she was dying, that I would take care of the kid. Yeah. So, you know, to me, it was, I mean, we were very close, and we got along great, but, yeah, I was, I mean, it's now he's 30.
00:17:54:02 - 00:17:56:03
Ivan Orkin
When he was, you know, two, it was hard.
00:17:56:08 - 00:18:04:20
Dan Pope
Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And would you, how would you sort of detail that to a, to Isaac at the time when he's a two-year-old and say, "Where's mommy?" Like, yeah. How would you navigate that?
00:18:04:20 - 00:18:17:24
Ivan Orkin
I was too young to understand. So I mean, I think he grew up, you know, he unfortunately doesn't have a great memory of her yet. But, you know, but we have lots of pictures and we've told lots of stories, so. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:18:01 - 00:18:36:22
Dan Pope
No, that's super, appreciate you being open with that. The one thing I wanted to ask you, and I loved it, I think it's, is it in the documentary? When you got, you got, you say, "I've got a fuck you kind of attitude." How do you think that's vital in business? Why is it important?
00:18:36:24 - 00:18:51:07
Ivan Orkin
Well, you know, people take advantage of you, so I think you have to be comfortable not getting pushed around and, speaking up for yourself and, and getting what you need to get done, and, so. But I've been that way with everything and everybody, you know.
00:18:51:08 - 00:18:52:12
Dan Pope
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:52:13 - 00:19:04:06
Ivan Orkin
Just in that I once I know what I want to do, I kind of, I kind of move and do it. And if someone sort of gets in my way, I'm, you know, either push them out of the way or step around, depending on the situation.
00:19:04:06 - 00:19:07:02
Dan Pope
Well, if there have been any examples of that.
00:19:07:04 - 00:19:08:03
Ivan Orkin
So many.
00:19:08:05 - 00:19:09:19
Dan Pope
Just any you can detail.
00:19:09:19 - 00:19:27:21
Ivan Orkin
Or no, it's just, you know, I mean, it's just, it's just sort of being honest with people when, you know, when you have a problem with, with, with the landlord or with, with a vendor and, and then, you know, they're, they're not supporting you the way you think you should, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think being comfortable telling them, you know what,
00:19:27:21 - 00:19:31:10
Ivan Orkin
you're not happy with and, and, trying to move the needle.
00:19:31:12 - 00:19:39:16
Dan Pope
Because I've got a lot of friends where they have restaurants, opening restaurants. And that's one of the things they have, the landlord is there, like, they feel like they're just getting squeezed, right.
00:19:39:18 - 00:19:41:18
Ivan Orkin
Well, my advice on that is have a good lease.
00:19:41:20 - 00:19:42:24
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:42:24 - 00:20:01:20
Ivan Orkin
Got a good lease, you're fucked anyway. It doesn't matter because, you know, that's, that's the whole thing you learn early on. Yeah. Contracts are made to be written well so that when you have problems, you're covered. If you sign a bad lease and you get squeezed, it's because you're an idiot and signed a bad lease. I can't help you with that.
00:20:01:20 - 00:20:02:22
Ivan Orkin
I have a really good lease.
00:20:03:00 - 00:20:06:15
Dan Pope
Really? Yes. What's, what's, what makes up a good lease?
00:20:06:17 - 00:20:22:23
Ivan Orkin
Just the terms. You know, what, what, what the, what the rent is, what the taxes are, what you're responsible for. Yeah. And but then also, you know, I mean, unfortunately, being a business owner is really hard because you, even the best lease in the world, and a landlord's not going to say, "Hey, man, I'll pay for everything. Don't worry about it."
00:20:22:23 - 00:20:41:22
Ivan Orkin
I mean, there's just not, it's your, your, your leasing their property. You have to take care of it. If there's something, breaks or is damaged and that, that's your fault and you have to take care of it, and you have to pay your taxes, and you have to pay your rent. And you know, you have to, can't be so noisy and you can't, you know, spill ugly stuff in front of the restaurant or have really bad smells.
00:20:41:22 - 00:21:04:01
Ivan Orkin
I mean, you're, it's just, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're and you're a member of the community in the neighborhood. So it's, it's, you know, I mean, there's a difference between complaining and what's fair is fair. So I, and I also think that, you know, a lot of times you get into business and then you realize, you know, you know, "I should have asked for this," or, "I should have asked for that."
00:21:04:01 - 00:21:21:09
Ivan Orkin
And the more you do business, the more you, you make a good plan. I mean, I talk to people who just want to start a business without much of a plan. And, yeah, you need a plan because plans help you think of all those questions you need to ask so that you don't just make an agreement or just sign something or whatever you want.
00:21:21:12 - 00:21:34:18
Ivan Orkin
You want to make a good, a good deal so that you know you're not screwed later on. Because like I said, some people who complain, you're like, "Well, you need just a baby." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you made a stupid deal and, and and now you're still got sour grapes on, you know, you got. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:34:23 - 00:21:57:02
Ivan Orkin
You got to be responsible. And, you know, sometimes when we make mistakes here and I've been wrong and we just say, "You know, we really shouldn't, should have thought of that," you know, and we keep notes. We have a whole file of things to revisit when we do our next business or, you know, talk to the next landlord so that you're ready to, because you got to remember and then your landlord say, "No, I won't do that."
00:21:57:02 - 00:22:01:17
Ivan Orkin
And you can say, "You know what? And I think I'm going to pass on this location. Thank you." So yes, go to the next one.
00:22:01:21 - 00:22:02:03
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:22:02:03 - 00:22:20:19
Ivan Orkin
Or you say, "You know what, I really love this location. I don't really want to pay for that, but let's pay for it anyway because this is great." And but you know, in business now that having all that stuff. So you're actually making decisions based on the obstacles you see you might have and you just accept it because you really want to do something, that's also fine.
00:22:20:21 - 00:22:27:22
Dan Pope
I love the idea of having like, almost like a book of all the things that have gone wrong. Yeah, because it helps you. There's, I think wisdom is prevention. Well, the
00:22:27:22 - 00:22:29:13
Ivan Orkin
only dumb thing is to do the same mistakes.
00:22:29:13 - 00:22:47:09
Dan Pope
Exactly. Yeah, I think I need that. We've had that with some of our sponsorship deals in the past, is I've sort of just given the way too much, and as we go to renew them with, with this is, it's like, I think I need to probably, you know, document, "Oh, that's where I fucked up." Yeah. It was, I think it's so easy just to aimlessly go through.
00:22:47:13 - 00:23:03:21
Ivan Orkin
And it doesn't, doesn't mean you're stupid either. Yeah. You know, you when you start a business, I mean, it's always good to have a mentor or to have, someone who's successful at business, who's advising you and helping you. And, you know, a lot of companies have a board with people on it that know so they can warn you or advise you what to look for and what to think about.
00:23:03:21 - 00:23:07:20
Ivan Orkin
But, you know, you, you know, it's, it's a lot of money to, to not pay attention.
00:23:07:22 - 00:23:28:22
Dan Pope
Yes. So a lot of people listening to this, and they would love to have a restaurant of your success, your brand, of your success. What are some of those big mistakes if you were to look through that kind of your book, which I think is a genius piece of wisdom that you're like, right, just, just avoid that. I know we've talked about the lease, but that any other ones, it could be with team related.
00:23:28:22 - 00:23:33:19
Dan Pope
It could be, it could be anything. But I'd love to know what some of those are, Ivan.
00:23:33:21 - 00:23:49:18
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. It's everything. So setting up your kitchen, you know, you might, you might forget to have a piece of equipment that would be really helpful. And so you remember, "Oh, next time we should really have a sink here instead of there. I don't know why we ever put that there. That was stupid." Or hey, or, "Never get a restaurant with such steep stairs again.
00:23:49:18 - 00:24:06:10
Ivan Orkin
It's really hard to go up and down," or, you know, or, "You know, we should have had two walk-ins, not one walk-in," and or, "You know, if we had more space then we could have done more delivery, we could have made more money," and you know, we're there's, you know, so it's, it's all these things, there's so many different ways to make money nowadays.
00:24:06:10 - 00:24:21:23
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Just serving people in your dining room. Sometimes you can do delivery stuff. You can get, takeaway stuff. There's a lot of things you can do is catering, but if you don't have space, then you can't do it. So you have to decide, "Can you pay the rent for the little bit of bigger space? And then can you get more business to cover that rent?"
00:24:21:23 - 00:24:28:19
Ivan Orkin
And yeah, you know, I mean, too many people who fancy themselves artists. And I think that's silly.
00:24:28:21 - 00:24:30:14
Dan Pope
Unpack that more.
00:24:30:16 - 00:24:34:12
Ivan Orkin
Because chefs aren't artists. Chefs are fucking ditch diggers, man.
00:24:34:14 - 00:24:43:00
Dan Pope
It's, it's an interesting scenario because it's like, I interview a lot of chefs, right? And some go, "It is art." Some say we are, like what do you say? I'm,
00:24:43:05 - 00:24:46:02
Ivan Orkin
They agree that art doesn't put food on the table. Yes.
00:24:46:02 - 00:25:08:13
Dan Pope
Yeah. And say no, no. So a lot of people, there's almost like there's, there's two camps. It's either the artist, right, or it's just the we're tradesmen, right. We learn the craft is the tradesman. We know how to put the blocks of things together. Yeah. That's your food bank done, right. Super interesting. How, what, what would you say?
00:25:08:15 - 00:25:17:20
Dan Pope
With, with the, like, what are the building blocks of the great ramen, like your specific ramen. How is yours different from everyone else?
00:25:17:22 - 00:25:37:17
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, I think the building blocks of ramen are all relatively similar. Right. All the ramen has a tare, which is sort of a seasoning sauce. And, yeah, and fat and broth and noodles and toppings. And when they're made properly, the fatty broth sticks to the noodle. So when you slurp the noodles, you have some flavor on the noodles.
00:25:37:17 - 00:25:45:04
Ivan Orkin
And they don't, it doesn't slide off the noodles. There feels to be a bit of a harmony and a, and a balance to the bowl. So it really,
00:25:45:06 - 00:25:47:03
Dan Pope
It has, as the fat is,
00:25:47:03 - 00:25:49:05
Ivan Orkin
What is that one that's really important, you know.
00:25:49:05 - 00:25:49:18
Dan Pope
Yeah. Okay.
00:25:49:18 - 00:25:52:20
Ivan Orkin
And then you have to make a noodle that will stick to that type of fat.
00:25:52:20 - 00:25:53:15
Dan Pope
So, yeah. Yeah.
00:25:53:15 - 00:26:10:21
Ivan Orkin
Some noodles just don't work in certain ramen bowls. It's just robbing dishes sometimes. So you have to tweak one or the other. You tweak the broth with this fat and then you're fat, then you tweak the noodle. A lot of times they don't, they don't automatically go together perfectly. You have to play around with it.
00:26:10:23 - 00:26:17:16
Dan Pope
Okay with you. And then your unique, how did you find your edge? Because I know Ivan Ramen noodles.
00:26:17:16 - 00:26:36:10
Ivan Orkin
So, yeah, it was easy to, you know, keep making noodles until I got the right one. So I often do that, but sometimes I would make a noodle I really liked and then I would have to work on the broth. Right. Seasoning or vice versa. Yeah. Every once in a while I would just make a noodle, make a broth, and try it and it would work great and be nice, but a lot of times it didn't.
00:26:36:10 - 00:26:39:08
Ivan Orkin
And you'd have to keep playing around until it got, until it was right.
00:26:39:11 - 00:27:05:13
Dan Pope
Yeah. And with the, with the, I think I read somewhere you said why you liked, well, in Japanese, you know, cuisine, a lot of it is very regimented. So, you know, sushi, I think what I learned when I was there is like, there's a lot of specialization. Right. So you go into a sushi place. I remember vividly going to this place that like kind of just did tonkatsu and it was, that was the only thing you could get.
00:27:05:15 - 00:27:12:15
Dan Pope
And incredibly wrong. But I think you said like it's very kind of regimented, but with ramen it can kind of go, there's not really any rules, I think you said.
00:27:12:16 - 00:27:19:22
Ivan Orkin
No, there's not really any rules. I mean, I think there are, there's not no, there's no, there's nothing in stone.
00:27:19:24 - 00:27:20:08
Dan Pope
Okay.
00:27:20:09 - 00:27:30:16
Ivan Orkin
It's just endless ways. And in Japan, people don't really talk about what they do. And if you ask them, they won't tell you. So it's changing a little bit, but, but it's always a big secret.
00:27:30:18 - 00:27:31:22
Dan Pope
Well, it's, it's try to say that again.
00:27:31:22 - 00:27:43:08
Ivan Orkin
So in the West they share. So if you go to Quality Meats and eat something and you say, "That was so good, how'd you make it?" They say, "Well, you know, I poach it in butter, and then right at the end I pour some, some, some olive oil on top, and I do this and I do that and."
00:27:43:08 - 00:28:03:06
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, oh cool. But in Japan, a lot of times if you ask, they'll just sort of look at you like, "That's so rude. Why are you asking me that? That's a secret." Wow. I think it's changing a little bit. I think that the, the Western notion of pop-ups and collaboration has started to seep into Japan. And so I, yeah, and I think people understand more and more that that's actually kind of fun.
00:28:03:08 - 00:28:03:18
Dan Pope
And, yeah.
00:28:03:23 - 00:28:20:14
Ivan Orkin
I mean, to me, people would say they don't share and I'd be like, "But that's stupid, man. You can just, I could write 100,000 recipes. Doesn't matter. Just, someone could steal your recipe and you just make another recipe. And that idiot only has one recipe." Yeah. So, you know, it doesn't, you know, but that's, but that's, I think that's more of a Western idea.
00:28:20:16 - 00:28:25:14
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. And I think that, you know, in Japan, they don't share as much.
00:28:25:14 - 00:28:42:18
Dan Pope
Interesting. What are some of the other, kind of not ideal idiosyncrasies, like, but from a Westerner looking in, in, into Japan. It's, so don't share. What other kind of nuances have you got that the culture that you picked up?
00:28:42:20 - 00:28:47:23
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, because I never, I never worked in a, I've never worked in a restaurant in Japan, so I don't know.
00:28:48:00 - 00:28:51:06
Dan Pope
Well, I mean, just not even, not even in, I don't know.
00:28:51:07 - 00:29:03:10
Ivan Orkin
I mean, like I said, you, you're, you know, basically the quieter the better, you know, not being loud, not, not sticking out, not, you know, bothering people, not, you know, keeping, keeping a lower profile is helpful there.
00:29:03:15 - 00:29:04:00
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:29:04:01 - 00:29:17:24
Ivan Orkin
And people don't, you know, if I talk in a very loud voice, which I won't to do, my wife will always say, you know, you are, my son to the Baghdad screaming, "Oh my God, I'm not fucking screaming. I'm just talking to you." like, "That's really loud." I was like, "Oh my God, okay, fine."
00:29:17:24 - 00:29:19:02
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:19:02 - 00:29:39:10
Ivan Orkin
You know, there's said there's an, a notion of not, not really always keeping almost like a little bubble around you. And you can do whatever you want in your tiny little bubble, but you can't bother anybody outside of your bubble. Yeah. And so it's always so for a guy like me from New York, who's used to sort of banging around it, that was probably the hardest thing for me to,
00:29:39:10 - 00:29:40:00
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:40:02 - 00:29:43:13
Ivan Orkin
back. And clearly I still am not great at it.
00:29:43:13 - 00:29:44:02
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:29:44:02 - 00:29:46:06
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, I'm better at it.
00:29:46:08 - 00:29:57:04
Dan Pope
That's fascinating. And so then your your second wife, was it Mari? Yeah, yeah. Did you say she's just, I think in the documentary she's just stylist.
00:29:57:07 - 00:29:57:24
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:57:24 - 00:30:11:21
Dan Pope
It was, it was, it was. Okay. And that was a while ago. What, what, what I like, I think that was what I took was definitely sort of a unique Japanese style, obviously. What she taught you about that?
00:30:11:23 - 00:30:12:24
Ivan Orkin
About Japanese
00:30:12:24 - 00:30:16:07
Dan Pope
style? Yeah, as a, as a, as a notion.
00:30:16:09 - 00:30:21:23
Ivan Orkin
And I, I don't know, but I mean, she hasn't really taught me anything about style. I mean, she helped me. She's, she's what?
00:30:21:23 - 00:30:23:05
Dan Pope
What was she what was she,
00:30:23:07 - 00:30:26:14
Ivan Orkin
She's, I mean, she's the, she's really the mastermind behind the brand.
00:30:26:14 - 00:30:45:22
Ivan Orkin
I mean, she's the one who was her idea to open the ramen shop. She helped to build the ramen shop. You know, her brother is a carpenter. And he, he helped build the shop. You know, I hired, I hired a construction company that also did, but my, and then my friend who's an artist, he did all the, you know, even the, the logo.
00:30:45:22 - 00:31:04:08
Ivan Orkin
We still use this, you know, from my friend years ago and, everybody's sort of. And we just sort of kept sort of trying to, you know, when I opened Ivan Ramen, I had always wanted a restaurant my whole life. Yeah. So it was a super exciting opportunity to have a, to have a restaurant, you know.
00:31:04:10 - 00:31:05:02
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, I,
00:31:05:02 - 00:31:08:14
Ivan Orkin
had sort of a, a real list of what I wanted.
00:31:08:16 - 00:31:26:13
Dan Pope
Yeah. And what was, you said, she was so like, she is the brand behind the scenes. Yeah. I know you talk about like the, the logo and stuff. How did her sort of, what else did she do? Because I think like when you see a really good restaurant, there's this sort of magic and alchemy behind the scenes, right, that you can just feel when you go into a place.
00:31:26:13 - 00:31:34:02
Dan Pope
Right? Especially with the chefs I've interviewed here, over here. Well, could you go into that sort of magic behind the scenes and how that alchemy kind of,
00:31:34:04 - 00:31:48:11
Ivan Orkin
You know what I mean? I mean, all those years ago, we wanted a shop that was simple and clean and neat and, yeah. You know, as I said, I mean, you know, the Japanese can be seen as super neat and clean sometimes. And then other, other times,
00:31:48:14 - 00:32:10:21
Ivan Orkin
even though, even though Japan is always seen so clean and whatever, if you go to, like, a neighborhood down dirty place, a lot of times, you know, that, in my opinion, sorry, I'll be honest, they're fucking filthy. Yeah, yeah. Filthy, filthy rags, you know, dirty magazines stacked to the ceiling, you know, piles of crap. You know, I was trained in old school kitchens where everything had to be neat.
00:32:10:21 - 00:32:15:01
Ivan Orkin
I mean, if you wiped your hand on your apron, you got slapped. You know? I mean, you know, yeah.
00:15:15:01 - 00:32:15:16
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:15:20 - 00:32:31:07
Ivan Orkin
Very old school about, about staying neat and clean all the time. And, and I felt like, you know, a lot of ramen shops, they're not run by chefs. They're run by guys who opened a ramen shop, or a guy who worked in a ramen shop and liked it. So he opened his own ramen shop. Okay, or not?
00:32:31:08 - 00:32:31:20
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:31:20 - 00:32:39:08
Ivan Orkin
You're not, they're not culinarians. They're not chefs. They're not, they didn't go to culinary school. They're not, they, they can't cook anything except for ramen.
00:32:39:11 - 00:32:39:20
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:32:39:20 - 00:32:55:02
Ivan Orkin
You know, and, so, you know, I think when I started, I didn't like that part of ramen. And so my shop was startlingly clean and bright. The walls were painted yellow and blue.
00:32:55:04 - 00:32:56:17
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:32:56:19 - 00:33:14:12
Ivan Orkin
There were big giant speakers on the ceiling. There was, you know, a, a giant kanji for house-made noodles painted on the, on the outside of the building. You know, things that, you know, I made a light box that in Japanese said, you know, "We're making ramen right now," and, you know, and, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:14:12 - 00:33:33:05
Ivan Orkin
Oh. And there was, and there was a light box on the wall that said, "Eat ramen here," with an arrow. It was all sort of very, and then I love diners. So I really, really fashioned the shop in Tokyo to be more of a diner. And, you know, the, and the shop in New York is very much a diner.
00:33:33:05 - 00:33:52:14
Ivan Orkin
And I think this place, there's going to be a, stainless steel counter, you know, there's sort of a couple of fun, iconic, you know, photos in the wall. It's, it's it leans more in sort of a diner type eatery rather than something different. So I like, because I grew up and I, and I think of ramen shops as diners.
00:33:52:16 - 00:34:13:00
Dan Pope
Interesting. Yeah. So I was like, even worse, I put the two, two of your massive influences into one, and that's how you get this brand new, completely new concept. And the cleanliness thing is fascinating because when I was walking around, I saw this place is just spotless. Yeah. You know, but as you say, there's like an underbelly potentially where it's slightly darker.
00:34:13:02 - 00:34:34:00
Dan Pope
What are some of the, the darker, parts to, to Japanese culture? Because, I mean, I think when I was there is, there's like again, I'm could be completely wrong here, so please correct me. But like, I swear, a lot of them people live alone. There's, kind of, as you know, kind of previously, you don't really share your emotions.
00:34:34:02 - 00:34:45:02
Dan Pope
One thing I did notice, which was kind of wild, is the, you know, like how late people are coming back from work, right? Like, suited and booted with their briefcases. I'm like, it's like, so late.
00:34:45:02 - 00:34:46:19
Ivan Orkin
And then they were probably drinking, but.
00:34:46:24 - 00:34:56:06
Dan Pope
Oh, is that was, you know, was that like, okay. Yeah, I've been fucking out. There's a lot of people walking past. Yeah. What are some of those from you that you picked up? But we understand.
00:34:56:08 - 00:35:19:02
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, Japanese culture is different, you know? Yeah, definitely. Like I said, you know, the, the famous adage that if, you know, if a nail is sticking up, you hammer it down. So, you know, you're really meant to, to really not stick out. Everything is a group effort. Individualism is not, you know, in, in the UK and in and especially in America, individualism is lauded.
00:35:19:04 - 00:35:39:10
Ivan Orkin
It's really considered a great trait to be individualistic and have a very special, you know, unique perception or something that people admire. Whereas I think in Japan it's, that's less admirable and working towards the better good of the team and the group or whatever is, is something that, that is more common interest culturally.
00:35:39:15 - 00:35:52:12
Dan Pope
Yeah. And what did you learn from you when you were in Japan and you kind of looking back on the States, did that give you a unique perspective on the American condition?
00:35:52:14 - 00:36:07:07
Ivan Orkin
I mean, like I said, I mean, I, I prefer the Japanese way for the most part. Yeah. And, and then I get the gaijin card, which means most of the time I can do what I want as long as I'm not an asshole. And as long as I don't break the law or break the rules too hard.
00:36:07:09 - 00:36:18:06
Ivan Orkin
And so if there was, I mean, I, my, my rule is to follow almost all rules in Japan. And then every once in a while, if there's something I don't want to do, I just don't do it. And yeah, yeah.
00:36:18:08 - 00:36:19:22
Dan Pope
I love that. And I love that.
00:36:19:22 - 00:36:34:21
Ivan Orkin
And I just say, I don't do that. And I'll say, "But you have to." And I'll say, "I really don't." So unless you're going to, unless you want to cause a problem, why don't you just run along and leave me alone? So yeah. Yeah. So every once in a while we would call it pulling the gaijin card and says.
00:36:35:00 - 00:36:36:12
Dan Pope
Sorry, the gaijin card is.
00:36:36:12 - 00:36:57:17
Ivan Orkin
Gaijin card is, "I would fuck off, pal. Am I doing it?" You know, so every once in a while. You know. Yeah, yeah. But like I said, I, when I was a young man in Japan, I'd say I did that all the time. Yeah. And, when I can piss people off. And when I moved back to Japan as a, as a grown man, I, I think I sort of said to myself, you know, that's not really cool.
00:36:57:17 - 00:37:14:24
Ivan Orkin
You know, you want to live in Japan, you got to follow the rules. You can't just ignore things. You have to. So, you know, nowadays, I would say I break the rules, you know, 5% of the time or less. I mean, I really don't just every once in a while. You know, there's all kinds of rules. I mean, you know, when.
00:37:14:24 - 00:37:16:08
Dan Pope
I say so, what would be some of that?
00:37:16:08 - 00:37:34:19
Ivan Orkin
Like when I opened Ivan Ramen, I worked on this one street, and then everybody chipped in. We had to pay a fee every month to pay for, like, the electricity on the, on this street that all the stores were on, and for the sewage and garbage removal and whatnot. And once a month with everybody would meet on a Wednesday afternoon.
00:37:34:19 - 00:37:45:19
Ivan Orkin
Everybody was closed on Wednesdays, and once a month everybody would meet on Wednesdays, and you'd count money and go over the receipts and everything, and then you'd have to cook a meal together and have a beer. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:45:21 - 00:37:46:20
Dan Pope
So we collected.
00:37:46:20 - 00:38:02:20
Ivan Orkin
So I went to the first one and I said, "This is my first and my last meeting. I will never, ever come again." I said, "I have a young family. I'm off one day a week. I work really hard. And the last people I want to see are you, so not personal. Don't ever expect to see me again.
00:38:02:20 - 00:38:07:11
Ivan Orkin
I will never come again." I never went again. I went once, and I, god, a lot of those people were great. We were really close.
00:38:07:11 - 00:38:08:15
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:08:17 - 00:38:17:01
Ivan Orkin
You know, missing a day off once a, once, once a month to be with you lot is crazy. That's just, doesn't make any sense to me. I'm so sorry.
00:38:17:04 - 00:38:17:24
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, I just.
00:38:17:24 - 00:38:36:08
Ivan Orkin
never went. So. And if I was Japanese, it probably would have caused more trouble. But as American, they probably just said, "Man, what do you know? What do you want? He's just an American." So. And but I kind of think it's fair because I think people even nowadays will sometimes say, "Well, you know, he's just, he's just a gaijin.
00:38:36:08 - 00:38:46:18
Ivan Orkin
What do you want? And he doesn't understand." And sometimes I'm like, "You're right. Yeah, I don't understand." So I don't get it. Your, your culture is way too sophisticated for me. I can't possibly
00:38:46:18 - 00:38:58:00
Dan Pope
understand. Yeah. So now it's interesting. I remember like, even the, when you, like, if you go for a cigarette, they've got them in that little box off thing, was hey, you can just go smoke wherever. And I was like, that to me it was,
00:38:58:05 - 00:39:02:24
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, but until ten years ago, people smoked in family restaurants with little babies sitting next to them.
00:39:02:24 - 00:39:05:22
Dan Pope
So really, it's nothing new. That's new since.
00:39:05:24 - 00:39:16:01
Ivan Orkin
It's ten, 15 years, maybe 20, I don't know. I mean, when I lived there, when I opened Ivan Ramen and everybody smoked everywhere. Interesting. You could smoke on the train, on the train platform.
00:39:16:01 - 00:39:17:14
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, smoke.
00:39:17:16 - 00:39:28:16
Ivan Orkin
Probably. When I first went there, you smoked on the trains and everything. So it's, but same, same, me. I mean, the whole world. I mean, you're just young. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when I was a kid, you go to the movie theater, you could smoke in movie theater.
00:39:28:19 - 00:39:29:15
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:29:15 - 00:39:30:17
Ivan Orkin
It's just, it's just.
00:39:30:19 - 00:39:32:18
Dan Pope
So how old were you when you first went there?
00:39:32:19 - 00:39:33:22
Ivan Orkin
But, 25.
00:39:34:02 - 00:39:34:19
Dan Pope
25?
00:39:34:20 - 00:39:35:20
Ivan Orkin
Yeah.
00:39:35:22 - 00:39:43:14
Dan Pope
And how else would you think the, I think I read somewhere you said, like, it's changing. Like, how is it changing for the better? How is it changing for the worse?
00:39:44:21 - 00:39:45:08
Dan Pope
For the best.
00:39:45:08 - 00:40:02:20
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, well, I mean, it's, it's become, you know, Japan's become really international and it's, you know, it's, it's a little disappointing that, you know, it's harder to get a hotel room or it's harder, the plane tickets gotten a little more expensive or it's harder to get into some restaurants. But I really, really like how international Tokyo has become.
00:40:02:20 - 00:40:20:15
Ivan Orkin
I mean, it's, it's, when I went there in 2003, it was still not. I mean, we used to talk about how Tokyo was just not an international city. I mean, nothing like London or New York. It was just, it was very few foreign. It wasn't, there were foreigners, but nothing like now. There was no good wine. There was no good cheese.
00:40:20:15 - 00:40:40:12
Ivan Orkin
There was no, you know, they weren't many good, they weren't good Italian and French restaurants. And now there's great all of that. You could probably, the natural wine scene in Tokyo is as good as it is in, in Sydney. You know, it's really, really strong and, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can get, and there's, you know, guys who go to Italy to learn to make pizza.
00:40:40:12 - 00:40:52:17
Ivan Orkin
They come home, they make great pizza if you like Neapolitan. I don't, but, but they, but there's people, the best Neapolitan pizzaiolos are all in Japan now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they go train in Naples.
00:40:52:19 - 00:40:55:18
Dan Pope
What kind of pizza do you like? What's your perspective?
00:40:55:20 - 00:41:00:08
Ivan Orkin
I'm a, I'm a New York pizza guy. I like, I like a crispy, chewy pie.
00:41:00:14 - 00:41:01:21
Dan Pope
Have you had crispy towards you?
00:41:02:02 - 00:41:12:14
Ivan Orkin
I, you know, I wanted to go, and I just really looked like, I mean, maybe sometime in a couple of years you can go. It doesn't look like it's a place you can just go to. And there's no way, I checked, there's no reservations for a month, and I
00:41:12:14 - 00:41:15:04
Dan Pope
really? Even like, because they just open the new pop-up.
00:41:15:09 - 00:41:18:09
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, they do that stuff and it's, it's booked out forever.
00:41:18:11 - 00:41:19:19
Dan Pope
So I, you know that's really.
00:41:19:19 - 00:41:29:14
Ivan Orkin
And it doesn't look like, they said something about walk-ins but I don't know. Anyway, I didn't bother. Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I, I'll try it. I mean, I'm a, I'm a big pizza nut. I mean, it's really, it's probably my favorite thing.
00:41:29:16 - 00:41:34:18
Dan Pope
Really? Yeah. What, so what are some of your favorite places in New York?
00:41:34:20 - 00:41:55:07
Ivan Orkin
I love any, I love Scars, which is my partner in Vegas. We have, there, they're our neighbors in Vegas. I love, new spot called Sere, which is really, really good. I love, what else do I love? Industry Mamas TOO is really, really good. And then Razza, which in my opinion is maybe the best.
00:41:55:09 - 00:41:56:03
Dan Pope
Razza.
00:41:56:03 - 00:41:58:00
Ivan Orkin
Is in New Jersey, is in Jersey City.
00:41:58:03 - 00:41:59:06
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:41:59:08 - 00:42:05:00
Ivan Orkin
Just get on the path, it's three stops and it's right there. It's the best one. And it's a great restaurant.
00:42:05:00 - 00:42:13:22
Dan Pope
Is that what I found when I went to New? There's all these different shades and textures of different types of pizzas. Right. Like what is the, what is the difference by?
00:42:13:24 - 00:42:39:05
Ivan Orkin
Well, because the shops I mentioned are all 48, 72-hour doughs, right? They're all rise, they're all more, and they're all much more sophisticated, complex doughs. At a cheaper pizzeria in New York, is there sugar and olive oil in the dough? It's, it's not as complex. I mean, I become very, I'm terribly spoiled. I can, I can't just walk into a pizzeria, any pizza anymore.
00:42:39:05 - 00:42:40:20
Ivan Orkin
I don't like it. Yeah, I don't need it.
00:42:40:22 - 00:42:51:12
Dan Pope
I'd love to know, well, what you think of Crisp. I do eventually get a super, there's this weird wonderfulness to it. Yeah. It's like the bubbly, crusts. It's insane.
00:42:51:12 - 00:42:52:06
Dan Pope
No, I mean just.
00:42:52:08 - 00:43:09:23
Ivan Orkin
Like, I actually did a little bit of a deep dive on all the new pizzerias in London. Yes, but I did a little bit too late. I ended up doing it like on Sunday or something. Yeah. Yeah. It just was, and it seems, for whatever reason from this neighborhood, it seems like all of those pizzerias are a good, you know, 40 minutes to an hour away.
00:43:09:23 - 00:43:12:05
Ivan Orkin
Yes. Or whatever is Alley Cats and there's.
00:43:12:10 - 00:43:33:05
Dan Pope
Alley Cats is good. Yeah. It's weird. Like we're getting this new, basically since COVID, this new kind of influx. I think a lot of these guys have Vincenzo's, Gracie's pizza, are all really, really good pizzas. I think, I think they went to New York, you know, pre or even just to states, you know, 2018, 2019, COVID happens.
00:43:33:06 - 00:43:55:16
Dan Pope
I haven't got a job, fuck it. Let's cook some pizza. And then we had this whole wave of pizza come on. There's this London pizza style. Yeah. Which is kind of a hybrid of different, you know, sort of just sort of New York slice and Neapolitan are all fused into one. But I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that, but it is, it's really interesting how it's, because they're opening all the time now.
00:43:55:17 - 00:44:02:03
Dan Pope
Yeah. And it feels like, because I remember I went to New York because of this pizza is insane. Yeah. What we've got is in the UK is awful.
00:44:02:05 - 00:44:26:23
Ivan Orkin
I mean, the pizzas, when I moved back to New York in 2012, the pizza was terrible, really terrible. And just falling off, and it was sort of like, "Wow, New York just doesn't have good pizza anymore." Yeah. But very shortly after that, all of a sudden the pizza scene kind of exploded and all of a sudden like, people started and, I mean, I owned, I owned a really successful pizzeria.
00:44:26:23 - 00:44:27:07
Ivan Orkin
Oh, wow.
00:44:27:07 - 00:44:29:15
Dan Pope
I was like, yeah, yeah. It was, what was that called?
00:44:29:16 - 00:44:30:15
Ivan Orkin
Called Corner Slice.
00:44:30:21 - 00:44:31:24
Dan Pope
Slice.
00:44:32:01 - 00:44:49:09
Ivan Orkin
My partner, I mean, I don't take credit for the pizza because I didn't do anything. Yeah, he did all the cooking and they've since moved to Jersey. But, he made a grandma pie that was, that was specialized in grandma pies. It was really good. His was like a, it was like a 48-hour dough. You know, really good.
00:44:49:11 - 00:45:08:18
Ivan Orkin
I mean, if you ask, what's the real difference between a good slice and a bad slice in New York? It's the quality of the flour and the, and the cheese and the, and the tomatoes. So the good places are using, a lot of them using Bianco tomatoes which was from Chris Bianco, who was famous for that pizzeria in, in Phoenix.
00:45:08:20 - 00:45:29:03
Ivan Orkin
And or they're using San Marzano, they're using and butcher there, and they're all, you know, on the more expensive side, they're all using really good cheese, and they're using really good flour. When you go to a dollar slice place, yeah, dollar slice just as good, it's like, no, it's just, my kids eat in the neighborhood and I'm like, I just, yeah, it's them.
00:45:29:03 - 00:45:45:02
Ivan Orkin
The dough stinks. It smells like cheap, nasty flour. The cheese is, is, is kind of gooey and weird nasty. The tomato's full of sugar. And it's just not good. I me, I'd rather just never eat pizza again than eat that.
00:45:45:04 - 00:45:49:06
Dan Pope
What was, so what's so special about the, you know, you said the grandma pie was, that was the thin crust.
00:45:49:06 - 00:45:56:14
Ivan Orkin
Thick crust is, grandma pie is a pie that you stretch out on a, on a half sheet tray and you par-bake.
00:45:56:16 - 00:45:57:09
Dan Pope
Okay. Yeah.
00:45:57:09 - 00:46:11:10
Ivan Orkin
And then you, and then when you get an order, you, you, you dress it. Yeah. Finish it in the oven. And, and they're slices. It's, it's something that grandma used to make was simple, she was a simple pie. But they're really, really delicious. Yeah, we.
00:46:11:10 - 00:46:32:17
Dan Pope
Really try that. Yeah. And then what's so, with what's the ramen scene now? And so you don't, you said you came over, you opened your shop. How has that evolved over the last, you know, well, ten, 15 years? Is it now more and more places are opening, more competition? Are the boats rising with the tide or you,
00:46:32:19 - 00:46:33:06
Ivan Orkin
In New York?
00:46:33:06 - 00:46:48:08
Dan Pope
In New York, yeah. So I feel like ramen's again, we're probably 4 or 5 years behind you. Right. With both feet. Let's be honest, and just now you guys are opening here. But what's going to happen in the UK is, I think, looking at New York so kind of a good signal to the future.
00:46:48:10 - 00:47:11:04
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, more than anything, I think. Look, I mean, I am, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a, I'm a Japanese ramen guy. I mean, I started there, I became successful feeding Japanese people who just stamped approval on my ramen and said it was good. I used, you know, that was my, that's what I had to do was make food for a Japanese customer.
00:47:11:06 - 00:47:28:09
Ivan Orkin
So I learned how to make food there using their ingredients. And so I've continued to use those ingredients I used when I lived in Japan. Yeah. And I think that that's happening more and more. I think the whole world is happening. Right? I mean, the more you travel, the more people eat, you know, delicious food from different parts of the world.
00:47:28:09 - 00:47:42:14
Ivan Orkin
And then they come home and they want to make it. I mean, I don't really believe in the whole appropriation thing. I just think it's, I mean, I guess if you steal something. I mean, I, I just think the whole, I mean, cooking is just fucking cooking. I just do anything with cooking. I just, I don't really, I just don't really understand it.
00:47:42:14 - 00:47:55:05
Ivan Orkin
I don't know, at the end of the day, you make food. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've always said to people, you know, if you go, if you, if you steal my recipe and then open a shop across the street, you call it Ivan Ramen, but spell it different, and you have a guy who looks just like me standing out front.
00:47:55:07 - 00:48:18:09
Ivan Orkin
Maybe that's that's fucked up, but, but barring that, I don't know. I mean, so what? I, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, it's not, I mean, you go, you taste good food and to me the beauty of cooking is sharing and learning and, you know, and making things that you like. I mean, I, when I sold my shop to my, to my manager and he said, "Can I keep the name Ivan Ramen?"
00:48:18:09 - 00:48:23:13
Ivan Orkin
And I said, "No, I, I'm sorry, I really, I don't, I don't want you to run the shop with my name. I want to expand my business."
00:48:23:14 - 00:48:23:23
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:48:23:23 - 00:48:42:23
Ivan Orkin
And I, and he said, "Well, can I keep you cooking your food?" And I said, "Yes, of course you can." I said, "But I, I recommend against it." I said, "If you cook my recipes, they're just going to call you a poser and no one's going to take you seriously. And even if you make my ramen perfectly, no one's going to like it because they're all going to say, 'That's Ivan's ramen.'"
00:48:43:00 - 00:48:54:24
Ivan Orkin
I said, I said, "Make your own food. Keep the noodle recipe or tweak some things, but, but make it yours with your name, with your shop. And then people will really respect you and they'll come." And he did.
00:48:54:24 - 00:48:56:06
Dan Pope
And what is. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.
00:48:56:06 - 00:49:15:06
Ivan Orkin
And they do and they come and they do. You know, he does, he does a delicious bowl of ramen and, and people respect him and mean. So it's like I'm, at the end of the day, I don't know, I don't really believe in stealing from people because I could, some, some operators really suck. And we all know that somebody has like a great restaurant and you love it there.
00:49:15:06 - 00:49:34:13
Ivan Orkin
And then one day you go and it's closed and you like, it's such a drag, but it closed because probably they're not that good of business. I mean, it's possible that the landlord one day said, you know, the rent's double, or it's possible that, you know, but other than that, maybe their plan didn't take into account that the cost of their main item might double.
00:49:34:15 - 00:49:34:24
Dan Pope
Yeah.
00:49:35:00 - 00:49:50:13
Ivan Orkin
Or whatever. You know, there's a lot of reasons to me, the people that take additional and say, "Well, you know, that guy invented it." It's like, "Yeah, but this guy knows how to run a business. And he, now he's got 50 of them and he knows what he's doing." So why, you know, good on him for knowing what he's doing.
00:49:50:13 - 00:50:09:03
Ivan Orkin
And he did a great job. And if you can't, just because you have a great idea or just because, even McDonald's. Right. They'll say Ray Kroc screwed them out of their business. He may have. He didn't sound like the most scrupulous guy, but he knew how to scale and he figured out scaling. Those guys knew how to make a lot of burgers at once, but they didn't know how to scale.
00:50:09:03 - 00:50:26:17
Ivan Orkin
Yes. So making a lot of burgers at once is really cool. But if you don't know how to scale, you can't get angry that they didn't scale and they didn't, never thought he took the idea, but they weren't like getting ready to scale and then he, like, fucked them over and burned that building down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just took the idea, bought it off of them for a low price, and then he scaled it.
00:50:26:19 - 00:50:29:11
Ivan Orkin
And so to me, I mean, that's just business.
00:50:29:13 - 00:50:49:02
Dan Pope
There's, there's a great book by Will Guidara on "Unreasonable Hospitality." He's coming on, on the show actually in, in Feb and he talks about the barbell strategy of restaurants, bar smarts, business smarts. And he says it's like you could have, you know, to your point. So you've got this one great idea and dish, but you can't link that to business.
00:50:49:02 - 00:51:03:08
Ivan Orkin
And you thought, yes, no. And I and I've, and I've asked, people have asked me to advise them and help them. And I've sat down with people and they've said, you know, I'm, and it's like, "Oh, I'm going to make this dish and I don't care. You know, the cost of bones for the soup is like triple what it should be, but I don't care because it's going to be delicious." And I was like, I'll be like, "You're an idiot." Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're insulted. And they're like, "Well, why would you say that to me?" And I say, "Because it doesn't matter if you can't make money or don't make money and then give it all the way to orphans, to give it away, to give it away to Oxfam.
00:51:18:12 - 00:51:33:09
Ivan Orkin
Give it a, give it away to Greenpeace. Whatever you want with the money, give it away, don't, you know, or, you know, keep it under your mattress. It doesn't matter. But make money. Because if the business is not successful, I don't care what the business is. If it doesn't make money, it's a failure. That's just the end of the day because that's what business is.
00:51:33:09 - 00:51:34:16
Ivan Orkin
Business makes money.
00:51:34:18 - 00:51:39:12
Dan Pope
Yeah. Well that's what Marco Pierre White thinks. Yeah. So your job is to make money.
00:51:39:12 - 00:51:40:14
Ivan Orkin
That's the job is to make money.
00:51:40:17 - 00:51:42:12
Dan Pope
The job is to make money and stay alive.
00:51:42:12 - 00:51:42:23
Ivan Orkin
Yes.
00:51:42:23 - 00:51:54:00
Dan Pope
One of our sponsors, yeah, they've just gone into business with him and he's just sort of fun. I mean, the whole point is you can do all this shit and make it all hooty-flooty. If you don't make money, you don't have a restaurant. And you found.
00:51:54:00 - 00:52:04:24
Ivan Orkin
I mean, any idiot can take the best steak and, you know, and charge not enough money for it and make, I mean making delicious food is the fucking easy part of, yeah, of, of restaurants.
00:52:05:02 - 00:52:17:13
Dan Pope
What have you learned about, scaling, keeping quality and making money? That kind of, that, there's three legs of the stool, right. What have been some of the learnings and challenges on that journey?
00:52:17:18 - 00:52:29:04
Ivan Orkin
Well, especially with what I'm doing, which is food from Japan, which is not represented here anywhere near as well as New York. Yes. It's been much more challenging to get good quality product and get what we're happy with.
00:52:29:04 - 00:52:31:15
Dan Pope
And, yeah.
00:52:31:17 - 00:52:55:09
Ivan Orkin
You know, sourcing ingredients and then, and then, you know, it's on me to set up a structure that the person I asked to carry out the business can follow, and that it makes sense for them and that they're able to do it. I mean, you can't, you know, there's plenty of franchises that have failed because whatever went wrong, but it's on the franchisor to set up a system that's easy to work with and, and be accessible.
00:52:55:09 - 00:53:17:24
Ivan Orkin
So if there's a problem, you can hop on a plane or in a car or whatever and come over and help. And always being available and supporting and making sure that, you know, the people, you know, you can't just say, you know, "Do a good job." You have to give them the resources to do a good job, and you have to inspire them to understand, you know, what the, what it is about that business that people like and so that they can repeat it and replicate it and, yeah, keep it going.
00:53:17:24 - 00:53:21:22
Ivan Orkin
And, you know, it's, that's the, that's the, that's the part that's on me.
00:53:22:02 - 00:53:22:13
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:53:22:13 - 00:53:23:16
Ivan Orkin
You know, that's on me.
00:53:23:16 - 00:53:24:06
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:53:24:06 - 00:53:33:04
Ivan Orkin
Is, you know, having good enough documentation that, you know, the person that's buying your business is, is contractually obligated to do what you tell them to do.
00:53:33:06 - 00:53:52:12
Dan Pope
And yeah, I love that thing you said earlier about writing that sort of that booklet of mistakes. Yeah, it's super interesting, so interesting, and would help so many people listen to this in terms of. So in the States, my research gave me, how many, how many sites have you got in this, in the States now? So just two? Have you got one in, did you say one in Vegas?
00:53:52:12 - 00:53:53:19
Dan Pope
Do you say one in Vegas?
00:53:53:21 - 00:53:55:10
Ivan Orkin
Yes, one in Vegas and one in New York.
00:53:55:10 - 00:54:00:00
Dan Pope
Okay, cool. Well, how, how have you, what's the difference between business between those two places?
00:54:00:00 - 00:54:19:08
Ivan Orkin
Well, Vegas is a, is a, is a food hall in the Venetian resort. Yeah. So it's not, you know, it's, it's a little tiny thing for such a giant. You know, it's a huge, huge company that makes billions of dollars and has, you know, this tiny little food court. It's, I mean, I think it's one of the better casinos on the Strip.
00:54:19:09 - 00:54:34:23
Ivan Orkin
So that's a really good one to be a part of. And, they do a nice job. Our, our neighbors in our food hall are really nice, and I like them. And, you know, like I said, we have Scars Pizza, we have Howlin' Ray's, yeah, fried chicken, we have Turkey and the Wolf from New Orleans.
00:54:35:00 - 00:54:55:19
Ivan Orkin
We have L'Antica, you know, the, from, originally Florence, but it's become a pretty big company. And, yeah, the Bee Taqueria from LA, and everybody's, you know, they're all, they're all good guys and, and, you know, it's a fun group and, it's a unique thing for, you know, otherwise we have to have, you know, some giant restaurants as well, you know.
00:54:55:19 - 00:54:56:14
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:54:56:16 - 00:54:59:07
Ivan Orkin
Thomas Keller restaurant, they have a new coach steakhouse.
00:54:59:07 - 00:55:00:05
Dan Pope
They have, yeah.
00:55:00:07 - 00:55:03:07
Ivan Orkin
All kinds of big, giant, glamorous restaurants as well.
00:55:03:13 - 00:55:11:23
Dan Pope
Interesting. And what are the unique challenges of getting with the, the type of customer in those places? So versus New York versus, Vegas?
00:55:11:23 - 00:55:29:07
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, where, I mean, I mean, ramen is a destination restaurant. So you mostly want to go there. We don't have great foot traffic. And so if you want to eat Ivan Ramen, you say, "Let's go eat Ivan Ramen." You go to my neighborhood. Yeah. The Venetian is, you know, in the mid, right in the in the smack in the middle
00:55:29:07 - 00:55:29:19
Dan Pope
of.
00:55:29:21 - 00:55:46:08
Ivan Orkin
A giant casino. And people walk past it and wander in, or they're going to a show and they don't want to sit down for a complex meal. So they come over to our via via food hall and, yeah, choose a slice of pizza or a bowl of ramen or a fried chicken sandwich or whatever.
00:55:46:11 - 00:56:02:04
Dan Pope
Yeah, interesting. In terms of, like, the genesis of ramen. Again, I watched videos online one day with Dave Chang, I thought was fascinating. What, what is it? Quite a new food, if I'm right in saying, what, what's the genesis?
00:56:02:04 - 00:56:02:19
Ivan Orkin
Jewish.
00:56:02:19 - 00:56:04:15
Dan Pope
New experience? What Tony told me is what I mean.
00:56:04:15 - 00:56:13:20
Ivan Orkin
The genesis, when Chinese noodles in Japan are clean and pristine, and Japanese ramen is dirty and muddled.
00:56:13:22 - 00:56:15:19
Dan Pope
Dirty muddled? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:15:19 - 00:56:21:18
Ivan Orkin
And we add all kinds of shit to it. If you have to have a bowl of Chinese noodles, it's usually a clear, pristine broth.
00:56:21:21 - 00:56:22:07
Dan Pope
Yes.
00:56:22:07 - 00:56:36:23
Ivan Orkin
You know, the Chinese don't tend to cook meat and destroy it and throw it away. In ramen, you put all this stuff in and you cook it till it's got nothing left in it, and you throw it in the garbage, whereas, yeah, in China you'll cook some, I mean, I'm generalizing. There's many kinds of course.
00:56:36:23 - 00:56:37:11
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:37:14 - 00:56:55:05
Ivan Orkin
Cook out, cook some chicken, then right when it's perfectly cooked you pull it out and you use that to for something else or garnish and then, yeah. And then you have a very light flavored broth. Yeah. And whereas in, you know, ramen is cooked much harder and longer and it's, it's, and it's got a lot of. When
00:56:55:05 - 00:57:00:16
Dan Pope
did it, when did it start? There was, that, was it the, what year was that beginning, like, do you know the actual story of it starting?
00:57:00:16 - 00:57:12:16
Ivan Orkin
I don't remember when it started. I know that it really picked up steam in the '50s. Okay. And then I think in the two early 2000s, when I started, it really became a new animal entirely.
00:57:12:18 - 00:57:16:12
Dan Pope
Wow. I didn't realize it was that recent. It's pretty recent, very recently.
00:57:16:13 - 00:57:21:24
Ivan Orkin
There's been ramen for many years before that, but it was much, but it wasn't as prominent.
00:57:22:01 - 00:57:41:06
Dan Pope
Yeah. The, you know, in was some that some later this year wall in. I remember it vividly. That's what, sat at the bar looking at that wall of kind of, I don't know, what was that like? There's all these cutaways. It's almost a montage of all these beautiful things in Japan. What are some of those things on there that really mean something to you?
00:57:41:10 - 00:57:43:17
Dan Pope
Is that, are you putting your soul in the restaurant like that?
00:57:43:17 - 00:58:08:24
Ivan Orkin
Was everybody that was, yes. That was, images of famous, favorite, favorite comic book characters and rock, rock and roll band logos and, yeah, old Japanese postcards and advertisements and, you know, old, Japanese, comic book figures and all kinds of crazy, personal stuff. It was fun. It was very organic. And the guy who made it was really talented.
00:58:08:24 - 00:58:12:23
Ivan Orkin
So he assembled everything in a really coherent, fun way.
00:58:13:00 - 00:58:22:16
Dan Pope
What is the, is the Japanese cartoon? Is that an anime? So is that the same, anime or, yeah, what is the, what's the role of that? And in that culture is that, I don't really know anything about it.
00:58:22:17 - 00:58:31:10
Ivan Orkin
It's always been really important to me. It's very, been very popular. Yeah. Anime, I don't be really honest with you, I don't know, I don't, I don't think I've ever watched an anime, I mean, I,
00:58:31:12 - 00:58:33:24
Dan Pope
Oh so sorry. That's not, that's a, that's a TV thing.
00:58:33:24 - 00:59:07:02
Ivan Orkin
Anime, animated movies, also manga, the comic books. My kids, we have many hundreds of Japanese comic books. Yeah. You read them in Japanese and, and, you know, and they watch a lot of the Japanese cartoons and anime. I guess anime is another word for cartoon, maybe it suggests something a little more sophisticated. And, but like I said, I mean, my, the only comics I read were 1960s psychedelic comic books from Robert Crumb and stuff like that.
00:59:07:02 - 00:59:22:00
Ivan Orkin
When I was a kid, and I actually liked, I read Marvel and Superman when I was a boy as well. Yeah, but, but I have actually never been bitten by the Japanese manga bug, so I don't, I've read nothing.
00:59:22:02 - 00:59:38:21
Dan Pope
The, so one thing you struck me as a person, this, you know, a fuck you kind of guy with with this kind of no-fear attitude, like, I'm doing what I want. I feel like in business there's always this feeling of ambiguity. That's what I've picked up. You never know what the fuck is going to happen.
00:59:38:21 - 00:59:58:10
Dan Pope
What's happening with prices? What was going to screw you over? How have you, when have you been really fearful in business? First question. And secondly, how have you, have you dealt with that? I think that will help a lot of people because, you know, sometimes you, right now in the UK, it's this kind of malaise of fear is so spreading.
00:59:58:11 - 01:00:16:17
Ivan Orkin
Well, like I said, I'm going to, personally, I think you start with a good plan before you ever sign a lease. Sure. And I really do. And I say that only because, I mean just endless people who don't do that. They just, they get this idea that they want something and they just go full steam ahead without a plan and without menus without, you know, just sort of.
01:00:16:17 - 01:00:32:14
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. And I kind of feel like if you don't have a really, you know, any business will, any, any business consultant will tell you that you need a business plan. Yeah. The business plan makes everything: finances and menus and concepts and, and artwork and.
01:00:32:16 - 01:00:33:06
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:33:11 - 01:00:53:12
Ivan Orkin
The more fleshed out you can get your idea or your concept and how you're going to do it laid out, the better chance you'll have of success. Because you can follow that blueprint and keep coming back to it and try to stay close to it. I mean, I, I mean, unfortunately, the world prefers big business over small business.
01:00:53:12 - 01:01:14:06
Ivan Orkin
So most governments and, you know, don't support us. They don't care about us. And I don't think I think they would care when we all close. If every restaurant, if every independent restaurant closed and every, every cute hat shop and every watch shop and every stationery store, and when they're all gone, and I, unfortunately, I think that maybe they, when they are really, you know, then the, then the big government will say, "Oh.
01:01:14:08 - 01:01:16:22
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah." But we have this right now. We have all
01:01:16:23 - 01:01:30:12
Ivan Orkin
these gigantic companies and we have, you know, all the huge conglomerates. And but it's, you know, the conglomerates don't have any character. And I'm not even saying that I don't support that. I think I think there's room for both.
01:01:30:12 - 01:01:46:07
Dan Pope
You need resources. Like, if you ever read Infinite Jest, where is, where the years is sponsored by Burger King. And Shania set in that sort of dystopian future. And I feel like there's so many great restaurants in London that are just getting this rage. Yeah, we all this, with all this tax or just everything like that as a whole.
01:01:46:08 - 01:01:51:09
Ivan Orkin
Well, it's just, you know, we're so, well, you know, in my country we're getting more and more money that big, big businesses.
01:01:51:09 - 01:01:52:01
Dan Pope
That what's going on in
01:01:52:02 - 01:02:11:01
Ivan Orkin
States and less, less money to small businesses. And, you know, I think it should be opposite because, because I think that, you know, you know, when you go to London and you go to New York, the places you remember are the one-off, really cool little spot down, down the street. And, you know, the guy sells all kinds of pipes from all over the UK or something.
01:02:11:04 - 01:02:11:22
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:02:11:22 - 01:02:27:12
Ivan Orkin
That's really fun. And you buy a pipe and you know, and or whatever it is, you know. Yeah. It's those are the places that you love or the, the guy who comes up with some more, like a ramen shop where the guy went to Japan and came up with an idea. And I really love it. And they come up, they come up with their own spin.
01:02:27:12 - 01:02:39:12
Ivan Orkin
And when you eat there, you're like, "Oh, that was so interesting," you know, just fun to eat at. And, you know, none of those shops even need to leave a huge impression on you. They could just be like, "That was really enjoyable and fun," and, you know.
01:02:39:14 - 01:02:41:09
Dan Pope
There's little touches that actually add up.
01:02:41:09 - 01:02:58:00
Ivan Orkin
And it's what makes, is what makes cities wonderful. It's what makes you remember, you know, you still need the Ritz-Carlton and you still need, you know, all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's also really great. And, yeah, you know, but I think, I think it's unfortunate that at least in my country, I don't think we value small business.
01:02:58:04 - 01:03:03:06
Ivan Orkin
They, there's a lot of lip service to it, but I don't, I think their, I really believe it and I don't think there's.
01:03:03:06 - 01:03:07:06
Dan Pope
What, so what, what is, what do you say the big money is being siphoned off to the corporates?
01:03:07:08 - 01:03:13:20
Ivan Orkin
Well, that's, that's the whole new model of my government, rate of tax breaks to the very, very wealthy and to the, to giant corporations.
01:03:13:20 - 01:03:14:11
Dan Pope
Yeah.
01:03:14:13 - 01:03:15:00
Ivan Orkin
So.
01:03:15:04 - 01:03:19:18
Dan Pope
And is that, how has that impacted your, your two shops?
01:03:19:20 - 01:03:43:22
Ivan Orkin
I don't know that it's impacted us quite yet, but I just think that it's, you know, it gets harder and harder and, you know, you, it's hard to get help, you know, you, know, when you get a really high gas bill that you don't think is fair and there's no one to complain to, there's no one to get help from, you know, or if the city makes a new ordinance that doesn't really make sense, or, or the Health Department. And the restaurant Health Department is not great.
01:03:43:24 - 01:04:03:18
Ivan Orkin
I think it's important. I would never say, don't have a Health Department. That's crazy. Should, but they penalize quickly rather than teaching. And I'd rather them penalize you by teaching, you know. Yeah, I'd rather pay a yearly fee. Yeah. And then have the, when the Health Department comes, it's a happy occasion. "Hey, man, how can we help a guy like that?
01:04:03:22 - 01:04:16:22
Ivan Orkin
Oh, that's really dangerous. Let's clean that up. You know, if you do that more than three times, we're going to have to shut you down, okay?" Yeah, yeah. Hey, you know, and you pay, you pay a 3,000 a year, you 5,000, whatever you pay. And when the Health Department comes, they're nice and they're supportive.
01:04:17:02 - 01:04:17:09
Dan Pope
Yeah.
01:04:17:09 - 01:04:37:10
Ivan Orkin
They teach you. Because, you know, sometimes you don't always know or you make a mistake or. I mean, most of us who are, who either went to culinary school or trained in good restaurants, you would never think of, you know, cutting vegetables on a cutting board where there was raw meat before. You know better, you know, just, you know, to wash your hands always and frequently.
01:04:37:10 - 01:04:57:21
Ivan Orkin
I hate gloves because I think they encourage unsanitary behavior. I think you're, you're much better off just always washing your hands. I wash my hands 100 times a day. I have children, and I have restaurants. I wash my hands all the time. You're crazy not to wash your hands, you know. And anytime you touch something, you know, if you pick up a box, you should go wash your hands, because god knows where the box has been.
01:04:58:01 - 01:05:19:04
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, but you need to know that, you know, and I think that, I would love to see, like the Health Department just work with people rather than showing up on Friday night at 8 p.m. during a busy service, and everybody's scared and, you know, they're running around and it's, and it's very unpleasant. Yeah. I think some of those things, some of those types of, you know, the, the right wing talks a lot about regulation and getting rid of it.
01:05:19:09 - 01:05:25:14
Ivan Orkin
You know, let's, let's shift some regulation so that it makes, it makes more sense.
01:05:25:16 - 01:05:48:12
Dan Pope
The, back, back just quickly back to the plan thing. So you said you, you know, you sort of sit with a lot of, founders or people who've got a great idea and it's kind of like, you know, the finger in the sky, like, "Okay, I've got this idea. We're going to get going." Almost the plan is the robustness of the, the sort of fragile future.
01:05:48:14 - 01:06:00:19
Dan Pope
What do you think, when you look at, speak to these people, what is missing? What, the one, two, three things missing from the plan? Because I think you've clearly know how to write a great plan. And this will help a lot of people.
01:06:00:21 - 01:06:16:07
Ivan Orkin
I think it's everything. How, how are you going to pay, are you going to pay your bills? You know? Yeah. You know, sometimes you fall in love with a dish that's not practical. It's hard to get the ingredients or the ingredients too expensive or, you know, or the amount of time it takes to make it. You know, can your staff make it?
01:06:16:07 - 01:06:30:23
Ivan Orkin
Do you have enough time to make it? How long does the guest have to wait? You know, thinking about, you know, you know, what, what your concept, if, and if it's practical. Are there tons of those concepts and, you know, are you just going to be another one like everybody else? And what's going to make you different?
01:06:30:23 - 01:06:48:13
Ivan Orkin
Or should you choose something different that, you know, people will be interested? I mean, Ivan Ramen, to be really honest with you, it was a white guy in Japan making ramen. That was my, that's my concept. It just happened to have opened in New York. And I've continued over the years, and I think I'm a good cook and I think I'm a good leader, and I think so.
01:06:48:14 - 01:07:05:10
Ivan Orkin
I think we've managed to keep it consistent and delicious. By virtue of the fact that I opened in Japan, I think I was forced to try really hard to make it taste that terrible word authentic. But let's just say something, I don't like the word authentic, but I might say tastes like something a Japanese person would recognize as ramen.
01:07:05:16 - 01:07:06:00
Dan Pope
Yeah.
01:07:06:00 - 01:07:23:17
Ivan Orkin
So, but I told a story the other day, you know, that, I mean, I, when I first, before I opened Ivan Ramen, I went to two popular ramen shops. One served a mazemen style, which is a, brothless style dish. And it was, it was a, it was an anchovy pizza-flavored noodle dish.
01:07:23:19 - 01:07:25:21
Dan Pope
An anchovy pizza. Wow.
01:07:25:23 - 01:07:39:24
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. It tasted just like an anchovy pizza. Like, seriously, you know, and it was really. It was delicious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, really good. And then I went to a Thai noodle, it was a, it was a green curry ramen. Thai green curry ramen.
01:07:39:24 - 01:07:40:10
Dan Pope
Yeah.
01:07:40:13 - 01:08:00:17
Ivan Orkin
That was also really good. Yeah. And when I ate them, I thought, "All right, you know what? I guess I think I can, I can, I can be myself and make ramen because they taste," both of those dishes, by the way, they tasted like ramen. They slurped. They had certain fish notes to them. They had a good amount of fat in them.
01:08:00:17 - 01:08:10:19
Ivan Orkin
They hit all the points that, that that you that would make it ramen. It wasn't like it wasn't like they were calling it ramen, but it wasn't ramen. It was ramen. Yeah. All the things that would make a bowl of ramen.
01:08:10:20 - 01:08:12:09
Dan Pope
They were those things.
01:08:12:11 - 01:08:37:12
Ivan Orkin
Right? Yeah. The fat, the noodles, the, the toppings, the slurpability. You know, all that stuff. But, but they were a little off-center in their flavor components, and I was super impressed, and I, and I, and emboldened me to think, you know, "Wow. Okay. I mean, I guess maybe you're this American guy. If I make, if it's delicious and people like my shop, they'll give me a chance."
01:08:37:14 - 01:08:52:23
Ivan Orkin
And so I was much less scared after that because I thought I could, I can probably survive. And I've always, when I lived in Japan, I was always cautious. I never do, you know, I didn't do a peanut butter and jelly ramen. I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't do, I didn't do, trust me, cooks think of wacky things sometimes.
01:08:52:24 - 01:08:53:13
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:53:13 - 01:09:12:08
Ivan Orkin
I was always sort of, you know, a little bit cautious about what I tried. But at the same time, I realized that I could probably be creative to a certain extent. And I have, right? I put, I put roasted tomatoes in there, I put, I put whole grain flours in my noodles. I, you know, I did, I did a lot of things that originally people said were stupid.
01:09:12:11 - 01:09:12:21
Dan Pope
Yes.
01:09:12:21 - 01:09:19:00
Ivan Orkin
And I did it anyway. And people liked it and it became sort of iconic. And now, you know, everybody does it and,
01:09:19:00 - 01:09:19:14
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah.
01:09:19:14 - 01:09:30:19
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, it's, it's something that, but you know, I think that, you know, when you, when you think about that, you know, "How are you going to be successful?" That's some of those sort of being willing to push through.
01:09:30:21 - 01:09:37:23
Dan Pope
On you guys doing when you're launching in London. Aren't you guys doing an East End noodle dish for that? Oh, sorry.
01:09:38:01 - 01:09:45:06
Ivan Orkin
No, no, no. No, we the only thing that's potentially a little bit London-esque is the salt beef bun.
01:09:45:12 - 01:09:48:01
Dan Pope
So that was it. Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:48:03 - 01:10:03:06
Ivan Orkin
And it really was less about me, like, I generally, generally speaking, do not love the idea of cooking for anybody but myself. So I don't, I don't make things for, you know, "Oh, how did you make the ramen when you moved to New York? How did you change it so people would like it?" And I didn't change it.
01:10:03:08 - 01:10:22:20
Ivan Orkin
So, yeah, same thing for London. But, we do a pastrami bun in New York, and getting pastrami here was a pain. And trying to figure out how to make pastrami here was a bit of a pain. And I said, "You know what? Why don't we try salt beef? People really love it. They recognize it, they enjoy it."
01:10:22:22 - 01:10:25:02
Dan Pope
You go to the bagel shops.
01:10:25:04 - 01:10:45:16
Ivan Orkin
Funny enough, I, I actually, what? I found it for the first time three days ago. I'd never really, I've been in the neighborhood a lot, but I'd never walked past it. Oh, wow. Yeah. When I walked past that, I just had lunch and I was full, so I did not have it, but, I had, I had a salt beef sandwich on rye with mustard at Harrods cafe in the basement.
01:10:45:21 - 01:10:47:05
Dan Pope
Yes.
01:10:47:07 - 01:10:47:24
Dan Pope
Slightly different.
01:10:47:24 - 01:11:04:12
Ivan Orkin
And I was, and I was a little skeptical because it was sort of a department store cafe. Yeah. But we were really hungry, and my wife was super cranky, and I didn't find it. I had, I had, like, literally 15 minutes to feed her before all hell was going to. Yeah. And so I said, "Let's, let's just go."
01:11:04:14 - 01:11:17:13
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. And I ordered this salt beef sandwich, and I was a little sort of like, "Yeah, whatever, it was probably going to suck." And it was really good. Like, it was as good as any sandwich I've ever had in New York. Like, it was still, the bread was really.
01:11:17:13 - 01:11:18:04
Dan Pope
This is it. This is.
01:11:18:04 - 01:11:38:13
Ivan Orkin
In Harrods. Yeah. And the bread was, it was like a really fresh, delicious, aromatic rye bread. It was lovely. Was it really the perfect mustard, the, the meat was really tender and moist, and I just, I really I tucked into that sandwich and I really enjoyed it. And I was like, "Man, this is good. Like really good." I really enjoyed it a lot.
01:11:38:18 - 01:11:47:12
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. And I'm a, I'm a New Yorker. So I mean, anytime I eat a good sandwich, I mean, I'm we New Yorkers, if we're going to be snotty about something, it's probably sandwiches and pizza.
01:11:47:12 - 01:11:48:08
Dan Pope
Yes.
01:11:48:10 - 01:12:01:04
Ivan Orkin
And with good reason to a certain extent. But it doesn't mean that you can't go somewhere else and have just as good or better and. Yeah, you know. Yeah. But I'm often disappointed in sandwiches outside of New York because I, you know, because I just don't.
01:12:01:04 - 01:12:17:03
Dan Pope
You know, the best sandwiches in New York for you? Do you think? Because where we were staying is that Mr. Purple, which is by Katz's Deli, and then the other place I don't have, you know, I don't know, the street was, that's where I came in 2019. And I'm going back thinking, fuck me, this is the, this all.
01:12:17:04 - 01:12:33:22
Ivan Orkin
Well, the Katz's sandwich is really, really good. Yeah. All their sandwiches are good. You know, right near there, there's Regina's, which makes a really good Italian combo. Yeah. Italian combos are very good sandwiches in New York.
01:12:33:22 - 01:12:36:08
Dan Pope
They're Italian combo. So what, ten combos?
01:12:36:10 - 01:12:43:09
Ivan Orkin
Usually 3 or 4 kinds of, of, you know, capicola, you know,
01:12:43:11 - 01:12:45:02
Dan Pope
Meats. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:12:45:07 - 01:13:20:02
Ivan Orkin
different sliced Italian meats, you know, provolone on a, on a, on an Italian bread. You know, and there's a couple of different shops that are famous, but it's, there's, those are really, really good. Yeah. A couple of pizzerias make really good sandwiches. The, Mamas TOO makes, makes it just insane, the chicken parmesan with, yeah, with the burrata and, additions and pesto and, and tomato sauce. And then, like, it's a little expensive, to be honest with you, but, boy, I mean, I just crushed it.
01:13:20:02 - 01:13:24:09
Ivan Orkin
It was so, so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of really good sandwich places in New York.
01:13:24:09 - 01:13:25:02
Dan Pope
What's a what.
01:13:25:02 - 01:13:53:14
Ivan Orkin
S&P Lunch. S&P Lunch is great, really. And that's, that's not an overstuffed sandwich. That's more, it's a, it's a hundred-year-old sandwich counter on Fifth Avenue and 23rd Street. And it was, open forever and ever and ever. And then it was looked like it was going to close. And these guys, who have sandwich shops all around, they took it over, but they maintained everything about it, even with the holes in the vinyl seats still.
01:13:53:14 - 01:13:56:12
Ivan Orkin
And oh, wow. So it's a smaller sandwich, but cheaper.
01:13:56:12 - 01:13:58:06
Dan Pope
Wait, so when you say smaller isn't what I mean?
01:13:58:06 - 01:14:05:09
Ivan Orkin
It's not overstuffed. I just mean it's not. You know, if you go to Katz's Deli, you can barely hold the sandwich. Oh, okay. As S&P Lunch, they're just a,
01:14:05:11 - 01:14:06:11
Dan Pope
It's easy if it's a.
01:14:06:11 - 01:14:11:16
Ivan Orkin
Nice sized sandwich. It's not, it's not tiny but it's not like this ridiculous thing the size of your head.
01:14:11:18 - 01:14:17:01
Dan Pope
And what, what would you go for there. What sort of what fittings can you get there. Same sort of stuff. No that.
01:14:17:01 - 01:14:36:01
Ivan Orkin
No they do that. Well they do a roast, they do a, they do a pastrami sandwich. They do, they do a tuna melt. They do, you know, just really simple. Yeah. Old-school sandwiches. But it's, it's got tons of atmosphere. And if you're in that neighborhood, it's really fun place to sit and, you know, have that and have some French fries or, celery soda.
01:14:36:03 - 01:14:49:20
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. I never had one to sell celery soda. It's the best thing in the world. It's a very New York thing. It's celery, it's called a Doctor, Doctor Brown's Cel-Ray soda. This is so celery, yeah, but it's, it's basically, it's sort of like a celery tonic. Wow. It's fucking the best. So that.
01:14:49:20 - 01:14:50:18
Dan Pope
Sounds amazing.
01:14:50:19 - 01:14:58:14
Ivan Orkin
Very, very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's my, I don't drink so I gave up soda many years ago. Yeah. But, but that's if I go to a deli I generally have.
01:14:58:14 - 01:15:14:02
Dan Pope
It is a drink I don't know when you go, but you go back tomorrow and the next thing you know, there's a drinks brand called Botivo over here, which sounds, sounds repugnant, but it's fucking amazing. You have an orange, it's like, it's alcohol-free, but it's, and also apple cider vinegar. But a little bit of it.
01:15:14:02 - 01:15:30:12
Dan Pope
And it just adds to any soda. You're just like, "Wow, this whole sort of magical flavor goes," well, that was everything is probably quite similar. What do you think of, what surprised you about the London food scene? What, when you've, you know, you've gone to the Harrods food hall, but we had a chef.
01:15:30:15 - 01:15:32:23
Ivan Orkin
This wasn't in the food hall. The food hall was too chaotic.
01:15:32:23 - 01:15:34:05
Dan Pope
I was in the basement.
01:15:34:05 - 01:15:34:22
Ivan Orkin
This is in the basement.
01:15:34:22 - 01:15:44:23
Dan Pope
there's this kind of reputation with the food not, you know, under the food in Harrods is being just overpriced. It's really interesting when you said that was top ten.
01:15:45:00 - 01:16:04:19
Ivan Orkin
It was really good. And I know, I know, I don't, I don't remember what it was. I don't think it was crazy expensive, but. Yeah. But the, the food hall is definitely looks like fun because counters are always fun to sit at. Yeah. The last time we were there, it was just bonkers. And I didn't even bother trying to.
01:16:04:19 - 01:16:06:10
Ivan Orkin
Sydney, you can barely walk through.
01:16:06:12 - 01:16:07:02
Dan Pope
Yes. It was.
01:16:07:02 - 01:16:07:17
Ivan Orkin
So crowded.
01:16:07:22 - 01:16:08:12
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:16:08:12 - 01:16:15:02
Ivan Orkin
Harrods is a little, it's also a Knightsbridge, which I don't know. What the hell are you doing? Knightsbridge is not a lot going on for me. And maybe I just don't know, but.
01:16:15:06 - 01:16:17:21
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of a weird. It's a little bit far.
01:16:17:22 - 01:16:23:10
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. But, I mean, I love department stores, so. Yeah. Yeah. I like, I like shopping.
01:16:23:13 - 01:16:26:08
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What have you been saying when you've been in London.
01:16:26:10 - 01:16:28:22
Ivan Orkin
Right five minutes from here. Yeah.
01:16:28:24 - 01:16:30:24
Dan Pope
We've got some good places, a few more things.
01:16:30:24 - 01:16:33:07
Ivan Orkin
I just we went to Scottie's Snack Bar for lunch.
01:16:33:09 - 01:16:35:13
Dan Pope
Yeah. Yeah. You're saying what do you have you got the.
01:16:35:13 - 01:16:41:10
Ivan Orkin
Said a scallop sandwich. We split it with my wife and we had a cup and we had a, we had a cuppa, a cuppa.
01:16:41:10 - 01:16:43:10
Dan Pope
Yeah. What did you do? Do you like the cuppa?
01:16:43:11 - 01:17:01:21
Ivan Orkin
Oh, I do love, you know what? It's funny. I've, I've had some really expensive black tea, and I have to tell you, PG Tips tastes the best every single fucking time. And every Brit I know says, I talk about the fancy tea, they go, "You know tips, it's the best." So. And it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got that flavor,
01:17:01:23 - 01:17:18:03
Ivan Orkin
you know. I mean I also drink a lot of Chinese tea and I like, I like Chinese and Japanese tea as well. But it's different thing. Yeah. But I find British, British black tea to be very comforting. But they're so, so good. I mean, the other day we bought, you know, like, we bought some Taylor's, one of my white English Breakfast.
01:17:18:04 - 01:17:24:21
Ivan Orkin
I think it just went right in the garbage. It was. We had one cup. It just had, had, yeah, no flavor. Said rich and malty on the outside.
01:17:24:21 - 01:17:31:13
Dan Pope
Yeah. I think it's, the the more snooty the tea here, the worse it is. Yeah. It's I just don't fight with something that's working.
01:17:31:13 - 01:17:47:06
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. No, the PG Tips is just, you know, it has that, this really deep flavor that's just so good. And, and the Taylor's gets, their regular black tea's pretty good too. Yeah. But, but I would say if I had to choose, I would probably choose the PG Tips.
01:17:47:06 - 01:17:47:17
Dan Pope
Yeah. At the.
01:17:47:17 - 01:17:48:07
Ivan Orkin
time.
01:17:48:09 - 01:18:04:14
Dan Pope
Have you been to, Black Bear Burger up there? No. He's one of my mates, owns a restaurant. So I think it's one of the best, being voted one of the best burgers in London. I kind of different. There's, like a miso burger, right? But his whole thing in point of difference is, "We'll get you in with a burger, but we'll keep you with the sides."
01:18:04:14 - 01:18:25:23
Dan Pope
So their sides are kind of. They do, what's it like, burger sounds disgusting, but it's fucking delicious, like a burger spring roll when it's cut in half with the cheese and, like, the beef brisket. Then you have these different sources, right? That's insane. Round here. So there's just so much good food in this little, area.
01:18:26:00 - 01:18:46:03
Dan Pope
Wanted to wrap up on a few things, like sort of personal questions. So I, yeah, I love reading. I want to be sort of briefly touched upon it at the beginning about sort of Japanese literature. What are some of those, what are some of your favorite books that really sort of, I think I really believe some books can just completely open up the way you see the world.
01:18:46:05 - 01:18:48:07
Dan Pope
What are some of those for you?
01:18:48:09 - 01:19:06:16
Ivan Orkin
What do I do? I just, I've read it, read a couple of Japanese authors lately. I've read, The Housekeeper and the Professor about, an old professor who, only has a memory for, like, 59 minutes or something, and, oh, wow. And, and the housekeeper who forms a friendship with him. That was a really, really nice book.
01:19:06:16 - 01:19:12:19
Ivan Orkin
I just read Murakami's newest book, which I really liked. Which I can't, for the life of me, remember.
01:19:12:21 - 01:19:13:17
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:19:13:20 - 01:19:17:03
Ivan Orkin
But it was also, really, really good.
01:19:17:05 - 01:19:20:13
Dan Pope
Have you read his, What I Talk About When I Talk About Running? You know what?
01:19:20:13 - 01:19:20:17
Ivan Orkin
I.
01:19:20:17 - 01:19:38:04
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, that's, I think that's really interesting. Maybe we can explore. This is like, that book is as much as sort of a meditation about, like, it's not even about running that I don't. I thought it was going to be running. It's not about that at all. If you to do like a book on like, "What I think about when I think about ramen," and this could be tenuous and nebulous.
01:19:38:04 - 01:19:41:20
Dan Pope
So fuck it off if you want to. What, what does that teach you?
01:19:41:22 - 01:20:08:07
Ivan Orkin
Well, I mean, I think anybody who, anybody who works at something, whether you're a lawyer or a doctor, cook or whatever, right? You go into your world where you, take all your knowledge and, and try to create something good. And, you know, when I, when I opened Ivan Ramen all the way back in the beginning, I remember sort of having all my mentors kind of around my shoulder, you know, commenting and reminding me, and you know, how to work, work hard, work clean, you know.
01:20:08:07 - 01:20:09:01
Dan Pope
Yes. So.
01:20:09:03 - 01:20:22:14
Ivan Orkin
You know, you know, don't cut corners, you know. And, and so to me it be like, you know, some people would say, you know, I had one guy say to me in an interview, you know, "What happened to you? You know, he worked at the desk and now you're making noodles. How sad."
01:20:22:16 - 01:20:24:00
Dan Pope
You sorry? You worked at Lutèce, right?
01:20:24:00 - 01:20:30:00
Ivan Orkin
Well, he said, you know, "You worked at Lutèce and now you're making ramen. That's so sad. Like what happened to you?" I mean, it was obviously, he was a dick.
01:20:30:00 - 01:20:32:04
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:20:32:06 - 01:20:33:03
Ivan Orkin
And I told him so.
01:20:33:05 - 01:20:33:21
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:20:33:21 - 01:20:51:24
Ivan Orkin
But, but what I did tell him was, you know, there are a lot of ramen, there are a lot of like really fancy franchises that are just garbage. And everybody, they get three Michelin stars. They're supposed to be amazing. And I won't name them, but, I mean, I'd been to the ones in Paris that everybody falls over, and then you go and then the service is rude and and they, they, they push really expensive dishes on you and they're not.
01:20:51:24 - 01:21:07:23
Ivan Orkin
And the food's fine, but it's not, it's not dreamy food. And it's just sort of like, you know, my point is that and that you don't, you just don't want to eat. You know, there's some days you'd say, "I'm going to take you to, you know, I'll take you to Alain Ducasse and I'm paying." And I might just say, "You know, I mean, I'm so sorry.
01:21:07:23 - 01:21:27:06
Ivan Orkin
I just cannot eat that right now. I don't care." I was going to have yogurt and, and some of this really good granola I bought. And I probably enjoyed it just as much as I would have enjoyed the fancy restaurant. Nothing against Alain Ducasse, he's a genius and I like his restaurants. But I mean, you don't want to eat at Alain Ducasse's restaurant every single day, the same way he probably doesn't want to eat at his restaurant every day.
01:21:27:06 - 01:21:40:03
Ivan Orkin
Sometimes you just want to have a, you know, something simple. And so there's room for everybody. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's great to have, I mean, what is my dad used to say? That's what makes horse races, you know.
01:21:40:05 - 01:21:40:20
Dan Pope
We'll say so.
01:21:40:22 - 01:21:42:02
Ivan Orkin
Again. "That's what makes horse races."
01:21:42:02 - 01:21:51:12
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Have you, you've touched upon mentors a few times in our conversation, Ivan. Who's been some of your big mentors and what they taught you?
01:21:51:14 - 01:22:07:08
Ivan Orkin
When I say a mentor, I don't know if they're really a mentor. I mean, I had my, my pal Bill Pete, who's the chef at Tavern on the Green in New York. Yeah. But he was the sous chef at Lutèce for 15 years. And, you know, he was always sort of showing me and teaching me and helping me.
01:22:07:08 - 01:22:22:24
Ivan Orkin
And he was always kind and never yelled. And, you know, he was 17, and Bobby Flay, I mean, I wouldn't call him a mentor, only that, you know, I was just a, just a young, young cook. And he was the owner of a big, fancy restaurant. And, yeah. But he was also a nice guy and gave me a bunch of advice here and there and.
01:22:22:24 - 01:22:29:11
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. And, you know, so I've never really had, you know, one person that, you know, I came up under or,
01:22:29:11 - 01:22:30:14
Dan Pope
anything. Okay, with. Yeah.
01:22:30:15 - 01:22:44:15
Ivan Orkin
Makes sense now. And like I said, I've never worked at a ramen shop, so I can't say I learned how to make noodles from so-and-so because I, you know, there was no one to work with, so I. Yeah, you know, I, I don't think I've worked in a restaurant besides mine for, gosh, 25 years.
01:22:44:15 - 01:22:56:19
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what, what would be your leadership sort of principles? I never talk, like how do you get a team of boats involved getting after every single day? So not an easy thing.
01:22:56:19 - 01:23:11:00
Ivan Orkin
To show people that it's that it's worthwhile to show them the food's really good. You know, I talked to the new staff here. I said, "You're not just working at a ramen shop, you're working in a ramen shop that we're very lucky to have a following. And people know who we are. And if you told people where you work, they'd be excited."
01:23:11:00 - 01:23:31:14
Ivan Orkin
You know, some people would know about it, you know, "Wow, okay." So it's, yeah, it's, it's something exciting to, to know that you're, you're representing something and and then not only that, the also the idea that, you know, people really look forward to going out to dinner and even though it's just a bowl of ramen and it's not cheap, cheap, but it's, you know, it's on the inexpensive side.
01:23:31:16 - 01:23:51:15
Ivan Orkin
And I think, you know, it's important for people to understand and for workers to understand how, how excited people are to go out and how, how disappointing it is if they don't have a good time and now we're taking their money from them and that we, we need to be honest and hardworking and, and get people behind. And I think a lot of people, when you talk to them that way, they realize it because everybody feels the same way.
01:23:51:15 - 01:23:52:14
Ivan Orkin
You know, you want it. Yes.
01:23:52:16 - 01:24:10:12
Dan Pope
I never heard it, like I said, loads of successful people right in this, in this game. But your perspective is really unique. I've learned that it's almost as empathy as it's not about what we're trying to do. It's about what the customer is going to go and tell their friends, how they're spending their hard-earned cash here. Well, yeah, we're not negative.
01:24:10:12 - 01:24:17:08
Dan Pope
That's so interesting. So almost like this empathetic showing not telling through empathy kind of thing. Well.
01:24:17:10 - 01:24:34:05
Ivan Orkin
It's just if you take money from someone, you don't give them a good experience, you're stealing from them. I mean, if you fuck up, it's fine. We make mistakes. Sometimes the food is burnt. Sometimes you spill something, sometimes, sometimes you have a waiter and you don't realize they're not that nice. In time you can get rid of them eventually, like, you know.
01:24:34:05 - 01:24:54:05
Ivan Orkin
But I think the notion that if you willingly give someone a bad experience and you take their money, you're ripping them off. And I, I don't, I don't, I don't like that, you know. And I do this because I love this experience. I love going to restaurants and I love, you know, interacting with servers and looking at the decor and,
01:24:54:05 - 01:25:08:11
Ivan Orkin
well, well, you know, how did they, how did they design their space, and what's the bathroom like, and what dishes did they use? And, you know, what's their beverage program and why did they choose that beer or whatever? And all those things are interesting to me and fun and, and I think it's that way for all people to different degrees.
01:25:08:11 - 01:25:26:22
Ivan Orkin
I mean, I'm a, I'm a restaurateur and I'm, I'm a food geek. So I probably dial deeper than most people. But, you know, I think if you, if you drink out of a water glass that feels really good in your hand, you might notice and say, "Wow, what a thoughtful choice. I'm nice." Yes, I love that glass. So, you know, or you know, I love the way they presented the food.
01:25:26:22 - 01:25:46:24
Ivan Orkin
I really understand what it is. Or and like I said, and then, you know, conceptually some concepts are bad and, you know, you don't know where you are. You know, you're, you're in a, you're in a restaurant that serves, you know, food from, from, you know, the coldest part of Russia, but they have surfboards on the wall because the owner loves surfboards.
01:25:47:01 - 01:26:03:22
Ivan Orkin
And so the guests are just all super confused. But, you know, you've been to a place like that where you're like, "I don't not understand it, and the decor doesn't match the food, and I don't know why they did it." And I'm, and and maybe you're a food guy, so you can actually realize why you're uncomfortable than most people don't even know why they're uncomfortable.
01:26:03:22 - 01:26:06:12
Ivan Orkin
They just don't want to come back because they feel bad in the restaurant.
01:26:06:16 - 01:26:09:14
Dan Pope
The if you, the manager goes to Devin. Sure. While you and,
01:26:09:15 - 01:26:10:22
Ivan Orkin
I a couple trips
01:26:10:22 - 01:26:30:21
Dan Pope
ago. Yeah, yeah. So the OSHA's been on the pod, the owner of that a couple of times. Three times, actually. And his whole principle is removing salt and irritants and his whole, we annihilate solid irritants. So it could be a sign. It could be, as you walk in, you're killing and you just don't, if you just for like a fucking, you know, idiot.
01:26:31:02 - 01:26:50:14
Dan Pope
If someone just goes, "I see you," that's a sign removed. It could be the fork, you know, like easier and more. His friend gave an example. You go to the best restaurant world of the forks like up like that? It's a sign irritant. What would you say, some of the sun irritants, not necessarily just in ramen, but in restaurants that you think happen too frequently?
01:26:50:16 - 01:27:13:16
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Well, certainly that, I mean, I, I went to a very famous restaurant in London last year and there were no less than nine people working at the counter making food service, bristling back and forth. And not one person made eye contact. Not one person welcomed us. Not one person said, "Just a moment, please." They said dick-all while I stood there feeling like a complete idiot until 12 minutes went by.
01:27:13:16 - 01:27:19:13
Ivan Orkin
And then someone said, "I think that's Ivan Orkin." And then all of a sudden they were whisked us to a table and we had a glass of wine.
01:27:19:13 - 01:27:20:14
Dan Pope
And we go, which is.
01:27:20:19 - 01:27:29:07
Ivan Orkin
And we were like, "What an asshole." I mean, it's bad. And I'm, it really just kicked us out. I mean, recognize me now? Yeah. Nice. After. I know you're a jerk, you know?
01:27:29:07 - 01:27:33:22
Dan Pope
Yeah, that's the word. That is the fucking, that's allowed everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:27:33:24 - 01:27:51:09
Ivan Orkin
And I think that happens in restaurants a lot where, you know, it's super awkward or they just kind of let you know that they don't really, don't really want you there. Yes. They just want you to come in and shut up, and you know, and it's sort of like I don't, you know, that's not why I go to a restaurant.
01:27:51:11 - 01:27:54:08
Ivan Orkin
You go to a restaurant to have someone make you smile.
01:27:54:10 - 01:28:14:22
Dan Pope
Make you smile, and on the other side of that, like silent pleasantries. I feel like when he's coming on next week's at beans, it's complete. And two-star Michelin up in Nottingham when I last week is sort of a research trip. Genius. Silent pleasantries. So I'm not, I want to go for a cigarette. And so he goes, oh, we're going to go to the got the cigar?
01:28:14:22 - 01:28:31:08
Dan Pope
I at the back and he just goes, "Oh, it looks like you guys take me out there. It looks like you like, nice hip-hop," which I happen to do like nice sort of hip-hop. And as soon as he said 90s hip-hop this I think it was either Alexa behind the thing started playing. I was like, "That is, that is fucking sick."
01:28:31:10 - 01:28:46:10
Dan Pope
And it's just this, and it just creates a sort of magic. And this feeling of us in that sort of gastronomic Narnia. It was absolutely wild. Like what, what, what some of this sort of silent pleasantries you trying to implement in your restaurants? And it can be something small. It doesn't have to be big.
01:28:46:12 - 01:29:02:24
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. Like I said, it's, it's acknowledging people when they're there. It's creating space for them to order. And, you know, you know, some people don't really know much about ramen. I mean, ramen is still a hard thing to, to sell, because even though you might eat ramen once a week and you love it, you've been in Japan,
01:29:02:24 - 01:29:32:16
Ivan Orkin
there are still more people than not that have never eaten it. And or maybe they've had a hard breakfast, instant ramen, but they've never actually been to a ramen shop. And so, you know, we, we deal with a lot of education at Ivan Ramen and trying to help people to really know about it. And, you know, and you want people to feel good about it and excited and, not make them feel like they don't know something and just help them know more and, and, and guiding people, you know, we don't upsell at Ivan Ramen.
01:29:32:16 - 01:29:44:12
Ivan Orkin
We don't, you know, we we want people to have what they want to have and, yeah, and have them eat as much or as little. You know, I don't love when I'm told how many dishes I need to fill me up. I mean, I, I mean, I'm a grown man.
01:29:44:16 - 01:29:45:18
Dan Pope
What are your thoughts on small plates as a concept?
01:29:45:18 - 01:30:08:01
Ivan Orkin
I mean, whatever. I mean, I, I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, sharing has become such a big thing and I don't mind sharing. And and good restaurants often have so many fun-looking things, you know, you end up wanting to try a lot of things. So I'm not, I mean, I don't really have any of those, like, I, I only feel this way or that way.
01:30:08:01 - 01:30:18:10
Ivan Orkin
I mean, I get it. Sometimes you miss the days when you would just get a big charger in front of you and eat your piece of lamb and enjoy it, and you don't have to share the charger.
01:30:18:10 - 01:30:21:03
Dan Pope
It's such a wonderful way of saying it. Yeah. Big charger.
01:30:21:07 - 01:30:43:03
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. But, but, I think it's more like unless the plates are just little, you know, one tablespoon bites, I don't need to be told how many plates I need to order. I can just. And then I'll, I'm super comfortable ordering more unless the kitchen says, you know, "You only have an hour and ten minutes here. We really encourage you to order everything at once, because otherwise you probably won't be able to do it."
01:30:43:07 - 01:31:04:01
Ivan Orkin
And some restaurants are so busy and so tight that's a rule. And that's fine. You know, you can order once and that's it. And I've been to a lot of restaurants that say you can only order once because their turn time's too tight. So and that's fine. And then I'll just, I'll just and then you know what. But I'm once again, big boy, if I'm still hungry, there's still another 900 restaurants out the door and I can go eat something, or I can get a yogurt at the local grocer.
01:31:04:05 - 01:31:21:12
Ivan Orkin
Yeah, so I don't, I'm never, I don't, I'm not fearful of being hungry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not not in, not in modern-day London or New York or Tokyo. I mean, it's just even in the middle of the night, there's something to eat. So it's. Or guess what? You could be hungry for five hours. Yeah. You know, humans used to be hungry for a week, so.
01:31:21:14 - 01:31:33:07
Ivan Orkin
Oh, yeah. You know, I think being hungry for a couple of hours is also okay. Yeah. So I, I like ordering what I want and then, you know, I mean, I've been to two restaurants this week where I, you know, we ordered and some have.
01:31:33:07 - 01:31:35:13
Dan Pope
Yeah. Where have you been since you've been in London. At what time?
01:31:35:14 - 01:31:37:04
Ivan Orkin
I've been to St. JOHN twice.
01:31:37:04 - 01:31:37:18
Dan Pope
Yes.
01:31:37:18 - 01:31:42:15
Ivan Orkin
That's my favorite. Yes. I've been to Singburi, been to Kiln.
01:31:42:19 - 01:31:44:01
Dan Pope
Yes.
01:31:44:03 - 01:31:45:20
Ivan Orkin
A big giant Kiln last year.
01:31:45:21 - 01:31:47:03
Dan Pope
Same. Yeah, yeah. Yes.
01:31:47:04 - 01:31:51:22
Ivan Orkin
Um, went to Quality Wines, went to Quality Chop House.
01:31:52:00 - 01:31:54:24
Dan Pope
Next to the, next. Yes. That's why I haven't been back to.
01:31:54:24 - 01:32:13:09
Ivan Orkin
My, and Scottie's for, half of a scallop bap. And, I look at, you know, it, it was, it was just, it was a sandwich, you know, your, your half-blind grandmother made sure you, but, but they were super nice, and the sandwich was warm and fresh and and and the atmosphere was lovely, and I really enjoyed it.
01:32:13:10 - 01:32:13:18
Ivan Orkin
Yeah.
01:32:13:19 - 01:32:31:23
Dan Pope
Just where I live, there's two cafes, one down the further down the road. What is it? About 50 minutes apart, sorry, 20, 20 minutes apart. Want some of the best coffee I've ever had in same the one next, the coffee is actually shit, like it's like so it's acrid. It's bitter, but the service is so warm. You know, I know everyone.
01:32:31:23 - 01:32:39:24
Dan Pope
She knows my name. And it's just that. And it just, I just, there's something about. It doesn't have to be the best it can just be, those little things done well.
01:32:40:01 - 01:32:42:09
Ivan Orkin
The Regency Cafe is my favorite, but I can't.
01:32:42:09 - 01:32:44:11
Dan Pope
Regency Cafe, I love. Yes.
01:32:44:13 - 01:32:48:16
Ivan Orkin
I've been there many times, but I, I have sort of I've had to give up that.
01:32:48:18 - 01:32:54:00
Dan Pope
What's. Okay, this is quite a controversial one, but like, so English breakfast, American breakfast, English breakfast.
01:32:54:00 - 01:32:57:24
Ivan Orkin
Every fucking time. Really? Oh, yeah. Man, English breakfast is just so badass.
01:32:57:24 - 01:32:58:17
Dan Pope
Really?
01:32:58:23 - 01:32:59:20
Ivan Orkin
It's genius.
01:32:59:20 - 01:33:02:10
Dan Pope
Really. Well, so as in, like, baked beans?
01:33:02:16 - 01:33:20:06
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. I'm so good. Yeah, yeah. Black pudding. I like any kind of, any kind of blood pudding I love. Yes, I'm a big blood pudding guy, and, you know, Cumberland sausage. I mean, unfortunately, a lot of the cafes, they use frozen crap. So, yeah, a lot of times the Cumberland sausage isn't good, but a fresh one is really, really good.
01:33:20:07 - 01:33:25:19
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. You know, and, hash browns. So they all, they're all the same triangle pieces of I can know.
01:33:25:21 - 01:33:26:12
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah.
01:33:26:13 - 01:33:44:18
Ivan Orkin
No, but, but, the Regency Cafe, there's some once again, the atmosphere in there and. Yeah, the coffee's really hot and fresh and, I don't know, I, it's it's a joyous place to go. I mean, I like it, I, like I said, I've sort of given up that, that, that just, heart attack food for now, but,
01:33:44:20 - 01:33:52:06
Dan Pope
Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's clog-inducing, but it's also joy-inducing. Well, it's, it's, it's like the American diner. How is that breakfast different?
01:33:52:08 - 01:33:53:16
Ivan Orkin
I mean, for me.
01:33:53:16 - 01:33:56:20
Dan Pope
That has any views next to a. Yeah.
01:33:56:22 - 01:34:15:04
Ivan Orkin
For me, I mean, I grew up, I grew up in Long Island where, where diners are popular. Right. But for me, the, the, the real New York breakfast for me is, is a toasted bagel with cream cheese and smoked salmon and capers and and chopped red onion. I mean, that's, you know, that's, that's my real New York breakfast.
01:34:15:04 - 01:34:23:04
Ivan Orkin
More than, you know, eggs and hash. I mean, probably my second would be, would be a corned beef hash.
01:34:23:06 - 01:34:23:23
Dan Pope
Yes.
01:34:24:00 - 01:34:47:20
Ivan Orkin
Which is also very, you know, corned beef and potatoes chopped up and fried till it's crispy, gooey on the inside, crispy on the outside with, with two fried over-easy eggs on top. And that's also really good. Not a huge pancake guy, but I'll have one every once in a while. Yeah. And, but the concept, if you're eating eggs and meat, the English breakfast is, it really it's sunny, and then mushrooms and the whole thing.
01:34:47:20 - 01:34:50:00
Ivan Orkin
It's just, I could do the whole the whole giant.
01:34:50:04 - 01:34:55:02
Dan Pope
Hangover when you're hung over. It's just. You gotta get that. It's just. It's. Yeah. It's call. It's a call-be cuddle.
01:34:55:06 - 01:34:57:03
Ivan Orkin
We did one at the Wolseley last trip, which
01:34:57:03 - 01:35:14:22
Dan Pope
was, I really I like the Wolseley. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I like the Wolseley because that's, Jeremy King. He's coming on the pod in a couple of weeks. He's got a really good book out called, "Without Reservation." It's like the, like it's almost like a James-Bondification of unreasonable hospitality. So it's very British, but it's, it's fucking good.
01:35:14:24 - 01:35:28:06
Dan Pope
So two more things. I'm going over to New York, in, in, well, some early next year. Where do, what the best restaurants or place, not even best restaurants, what place I need to go and eat at?
01:35:28:08 - 01:35:30:12
Ivan Orkin
I don't know, what, what are you talking?
01:35:30:14 - 01:35:49:08
Dan Pope
So I would like so, so, so premium Michelin place. Right. Just razzle-dazzle. Right. Do you know The Dutch? Do you know Torrisi, the company, Torrisi? Yeah, yeah. So, Franco's a good friend of mine. So that's how I'm going to see, so someone like that, a cheap place where we do, like, a sandwich.
01:35:49:12 - 01:35:53:07
Dan Pope
The bodega place, sort of places with, pizza.
01:35:53:10 - 01:35:54:19
Ivan Orkin
Right.
01:35:54:21 - 01:36:04:03
Dan Pope
Probably a dessert place. Right. And, and then just, yeah, they don't have to be fucking all, like, razzle-dazzle places.
01:36:04:05 - 01:36:29:01
Ivan Orkin
Well, there's like little, Le Veau d'Or, which is the new from the guys who have Frenchette, and now, and now Cherry, Cherry Lane called, in the in the Cherry Lane movie theater, old theater just opened. That one's an old-school French place that they revamped. Very popular. Really fun. The Grill, which used to be the Four Seasons run by the guys who own Carbone.
01:36:29:03 - 01:36:29:14
Ivan Orkin
Oh. Because that's.
01:36:29:14 - 01:36:30:13
Dan Pope
just logical.
01:36:30:15 - 01:36:43:00
Ivan Orkin
I love that Carbone just opened. And then you, it's very hard to get into, but Torrisi is also really good for a sec. Another owner, there's Rich Torrisi, who's namesake, the original talk that launched.
01:36:43:02 - 01:36:43:16
Dan Pope
Yeah, yeah.
01:36:43:17 - 01:37:04:24
Ivan Orkin
It's Torrisi and Mario Carbone. Then they partnered with a very good business partner and then now they're just crushing the whole world. But, the Torrisi is really fun if you can get into it. There's, what else is new and, new and fancy?
01:37:05:02 - 01:37:07:17
Ivan Orkin
And there's always fun to go to the Gramercy Tavern for a cocktail. And so.
01:37:07:19 - 01:37:10:24
Ivan Orkin
And I know, and I know Michael Anthony really well.
01:37:14:06 - 01:37:15:15
Dan Pope
And so he's, he's the chef.
01:37:15:18 - 01:37:20:17
Ivan Orkin
He's at Tavern and and now and now The Lex, which is the new Waldorf Astoria, which is.
01:37:20:17 - 01:37:21:15
Dan Pope
Yeah. Too,
01:37:21:15 - 01:37:24:14
Dan Pope
fine, fine. Yeah. And then just quickly, like,
01:37:24:16 - 01:37:32:19
Ivan Orkin
We talk about pizza: Sere, little lay, Industry Mamas TOO, Scars. And there's another.
01:37:32:19 - 01:37:34:04
Dan Pope
One there, and then the Sony's.
01:37:34:09 - 01:37:57:05
Ivan Orkin
And then, there's S&P Lunch. Regina's sandwich. There's Different Day in Brooklyn. And yeah, Pastrami Queen if you're upstate, uptown, if you want to try a pastrami sandwich uptown. And Mamas TOO. Mamas TOO L.A. And both specialize, if you look at their Instagram, they're always doing some kind of wacky good sandwich. Yeah.
01:37:57:08 - 01:37:57:21
Ivan Orkin
Yeah.
01:37:57:23 - 01:38:03:04
Dan Pope
Final question. Asks all guests. What's one truth you believe that most people would disagree with you on?
01:38:03:04 - 01:38:03:11
Ivan Orkin
One.
01:38:03:11 - 01:38:05:09
Dan Pope
truth? Yes.
01:38:05:11 - 01:38:12:06
Ivan Orkin
Customer's always right. Yes. Because, because they're paying.
01:38:12:08 - 01:38:17:19
Dan Pope
Yes. And everyone's eating. Everyone forgets that.
01:38:17:21 - 01:38:41:07
Ivan Orkin
Yeah. I mean, you know, these days people can be a little entitled. You have your smattering of Karens. You have your rings of Karen. No, that's okay, you know. But, but I think, you know, I think in general, you know, you're asking people to pay, and I think you need to make, make things really comfortable for people and, and, you know, try to make them happy because it's, you know, you know, the customer isn't always right.
01:38:41:07 - 01:38:56:05
Ivan Orkin
If they say that this is too salty, it's like, "All right, well, eat somewhere else." I'm not super comfortable saying eat somewhere else. And, you know, that's fine. You don't want it, you don't like it. You don't have to pay for it, you know, or you want something different. We'll give you something different. It's no problem. You know, you're not going to hurt my feelings.
01:38:56:05 - 01:38:59:11
Ivan Orkin
Really? It's pretty hard to hurt my feelings.
01:38:59:13 - 01:39:09:23
Dan Pope
May I even, thank you so much. Absolute joy. So buzzing you're in London, and. Yeah, we'll get this live and I can't, I can't wait to get, get my mitts on your. I'm an honorary cliche. Thank you. Thank you so much. Awesome.
01:39:09:23 - 01:39:29:19