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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Welcome to the
Honest Money Show.
Thanks to our sponsor Bitaroo
for making today's
episode possible.
Australia's biggest Bitcoin
on the exchange.
Hi, Michael.
Hi. How are you? Anya?
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for coming on.
My pleasure. G'day.
Good, good.
Wendy as hell.
Like Wendy as anything.
Sydney is, like, blowing.
I don't know, like 49
an hour winds at the moment,
so it's nuts, but it's sunny,
so I'll take that.
Nice.
And your recent trip
to North Queensland.
How was that?
Oh. Is awesome.
Yeah, I went up to.
It's actually near
where the bush bashes
near Palm Cove. Unbelievable.
Like it's beautiful weather.
Like in north,
like the tropic,
like the top end of,
Queensland or like Australia.
It's like basically
nice weather, 24 seven.
You know, it's summer.
It's like 48
degrees or something.
So you don't really
want to be there in summer,
but in winter, it's like,
you know, 26 to
30 or something.
So it was it was awesome.
And now I've come back and
Trump's
dropped bombs
on the nuclear side.
Then they retaliated
after the pace and Bitcoin's
ripping on the back of that.
And everything is turning
into a Bitcoin
treasury company.
And yeah my head is spinning
right now.
Like absolutely spinning.
Yeah.
It's hard to sort of
open up Twitter
or look at the news
without something new
popping up in that space.
Yeah,
I feel like
I mean,
I've only I've only new
to Bitcoin,
so I haven't done a few cycles
and it seems like every day
there's so many good news.
Was this always the case
like back in the day? Nope.
So back in the day
the way that things went is
there's always been these
different narratives
through time right.
With Bitcoin's arc.
And so,
you know, right now you hear,
Microsoft is adopting
a Bitcoin treasury strategy.
Oh my God.
And everyone gets excited.
Oh that's
the announcement right.
They're waiting
for the brand name adopts
XYZ it whatever XYZ
that is today it's
Bitcoin treasuries
back in the day in 2014.
You know
it was the biggest thing
that people would announce
and they'd ride
the Bitcoin community for it,
which was like
get a real
big promotion from them
that was similar
to, Steak and Shake,
that burger place that started
accepting Bitcoin in America,
basically accepting bitcoin
as merchant,
as a merchant form
of a form of payment
to merchants.
And that was a big one.
So Overstock.com,
I don't know
if you've ever heard of them,
but they were like
the CEO was like
the Michael Saylor
before Saylor was Saylor.
Do you know what I mean?
Right.
They said
they were a massive,
massive distributor
or a massive online store,
and they started accepting
Bitcoin for payments.
And then I think
his name was Patrick,
who is a CEO.
At the time
he went on to be like,
yep, Bitcoin
and fully leaned into it.
He wanted to build like
an exchange
and really evangelized it.
And that was the
big brand coming into Bitcoin.
So this company
accepts Bitcoin,
this company accepts Bitcoin.
And it was a race
to kind of try and find a way
to get the real estate
of which brands
will be accepting,
you know, Bitcoin
for payment at the time.
Actually Ethereum
didn't exist.
Ethereum had it launched yet.
That's how early that was.
So it was like so
many moons ago.
I think it was actually
the year
that Ethereum launched
or maybe the year before that.
But yeah,
we see these ebbs and flows
and that happens
with everything
that's a community
orientated product
or protocol.
Because Bitcoin is a network,
we're all on the same team.
So that's why
you feel this rising
tide lifts all boats.
And then,
you know,
if one person gets a black eye
we all get a black eye.
And that was the thing
that would happen quite a lot,
which was
good news
would lift everyone
and bad news
would pull everyone down.
And it's sort of like that
at the moment,
just at a different scale.
But, you know, directly
back to your question,
it was never always like this.
Right now,
every company is a
the buying bitcoin.
Every company is either
raising money to buy bitcoin.
Every company
is trying to figure out
how to accept bitcoin.
It's just it's everywhere.
And I've noticed as well
that Bitcoin's had a chance
to position itself
from crypto.
Like do you know how
you know what I mean?
Where it's like
it's like crypto is like the.
Little tiny little.
Like a circus almost as well.
Yeah, yeah it did
bit like it's
almost like Bitcoin said.
Nah, I'm boring.
And everyone goes
yeah, yeah, Bitcoin's boring.
The crypto
and but
that's been
a really good thing.
Like sovereign wealth
funds and nation states.
They don't mind coins.
They're in the circus.
They're going for
like the big Moby Dick
kind of thing.
And that's like, you know,
they're going to kill it.
Like going for the kill shot
bitcoins.
It you know, they don't
they don't like, oh,
how can we make,
you know, 10
million today pumping
penny stocks.
They're not really into that.
They're like,
how do we build
the foundations
for the next hundred years
of wealth for this country?
And that's like
such a bigger question.
And when you think about it
at that scale,
you realize that
half the circus doesn't
matter, basically.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's
like these guys are
a different level.
Oh no, they get a pump.
My coin pump. My god.
No no no no no,
they're fucking
they are astronomically
further along.
And they are trying to
build like
real primitive foundations.
That's why you got a Bitcoin.
You can't really use
any other asset.
It's just a circle Jack.
They're not. Yeah.
Not liquid enough.
Not big enough,
not secure enough.
Not enough track record.
So yeah I think it's
yeah there's heaps of meat
on the bone in the industry
right now.
Like it's just there's
so much to go through.
It's hard to be sure. Yeah.
I've also noticed, like,
you would have heard
in the news
that Australia has
finally joined the party.
So we have
a first publicly listed
company who,
locate Technologies.
Have you heard?
Yes. Which one?
Technology.
Locate technologies.
They're in ASX
local companies.
Right? Yes. Yeah. Yep.
So they have announced
a bitcoin treasury.
Basically they go
I think they've
already acquired ten Bitcoin.
I saw that on Twitter.
So I haven't verified it.
But it's very interesting
because you know
the US is very much
leading in this space.
And then
I wondered how
when it was going to happen
in Australia,
it's already happened.
And I think they're going to.
Yeah, definitely,
hopefully
set an example for others
I think.
So I think there's
two sides to it.
And I do think there'll
be a lot of those
treasury companies
in all different markets.
But I definitely think
we'll see lots of them
just springing up everywhere.
The opportunities to
big and companies
are too bad
at doing what they do.
Do you know what I mean?
Like
they they're like
companies are run
by human beings as well.
Human beings,
just like you and me.
They get lazy
and like
if there's a way
to make way more money,
way easier,
the companies
will flock to that.
Well, oh, what?
Organize 38 insurance
providers for supply chain
factoring to sell 10,000
rubber duckies with
a 3% margin on it.
Yeah, like
it's even hard
saying that sentence.
People won't even bother.
So I think actually
it's quite interesting
because you'll see this like
narrow concentration
of products
from these companies.
So basically right now
everyone does
lots of things
like Apple's got hardware,
software, vision,
that's to increase revenue.
They build more product lines
to increase revenue
as revenue
or the wealth starts
growing for these companies.
They're going to look back
and be like, okay,
we can sell.
We can spend
three years in R&D
making the Apple TV two,
and then we can try and sell
10 million of them.
And that'll net us
10 billion in profit.
Or we could buy 10,000
bitcoins and wait for them
to appreciate over
the eight years
that it would take
us to go from R&D
to shipping the product
and selling it that time 5000.
If there's 5000
CEOs of public companies,
there's 5000 people
that will think
exactly that way.
They've got a fiduciary
responsibility, basically.
And so,
yeah,
I think I think
we're going to see a lot
of these zombie companies
that were zombies
basically pop up
and just be placeholders
for Bitcoin holding Bitcoin
and that's
been a value actually.
So I,
I think I think directionally
it makes sense.
There's obviously community
like parts of the community
that have got
the shits with it.
And they think it's a bit
scam, pointy and all pointy.
And it does have
an element of that to it.
The premise
of Bitcoin treasury
companies is powerful,
but in their current state,
if you're.
Here's a message
for every Bitcoin
treasury company CEO.
If you guys are using Twitter
as a mechanism for gaining,
you know, traction and
and momentum
and intercepting
the idea of your,
you know, the stock
ticker code
and starting
a group on Twitter
and getting all the hype.
If you do that,
that's a cheap win.
And so what will you get
is all those people
that love you for that second,
the moment
the next similar comes along,
or smart aware
or Meta planet,
they'll rotate their
capital straight out of yours
and into that new one
because they know
the trade works.
If you invest in MicroStrategy
pre and post Bitcoin,
the trade works
meta planet the trade work
smarter web.
The trade works
so they know the trade.
But if
meta planet's too big
now I can't make enough money
trading their stock.
I don't want that.
And so
I want to go to the new one.
Oh it's $0.01 a stock.
Oh cool.
And then have got
no bitcoins yet.
But they're planning to buy
let's me fuck yeah.
Like that is almost like
kind of like a no brainer
in a way.
You know, like that pay
plays out
in any market always.
And so people are watching
now, they're like,
oh my God Salah just announced
he bought 10,000 bitcoin.
Nothing's happened
to the price.
It's like
well firstly there's so liquid
now you can't dent the price
that easily.
But people
are rotating capital
out of that
into fold smarter web
sem la meta planet.
And you know the list
just goes on.
But the
every company
will sort of be
one of those companies
in the next eight,
eight years.
That feels way
too long though,
so I'd probably go with them.
Yeah.
For sure is. Far too long.
Yeah.
Do you think that Bitcoin is
well understood
in Australia
but particularly in the
the traditional
finance sector?
Do you think people know
this terribly?
I'll speak to those guys
all the time.
Smartest people
you've ever met.
They don't know anything
about critical.
Not not literally,
but it's just
not it's not people.
A lot of people haven't
wrap their head around it.
And we have an ETF,
you know, monochrome,
which is doing awesome.
I think they're about to hit
a thousand BTC,
which is,
you know,
a lot of people look at that.
And they used to the US
numbers.
BlackRock's got 600,000 coins
having a thousand coins
in the monochrome ETF
like as a product,
it is actually a really decent
product from memory
like they're doing
really well.
So the market is
not really understanding it
right now.
Australia's got you know,
we've got tall poppy
syndrome or whatever
it's called.
Sometimes people go
oh what now
screw that you made money for
I'm not listening to that.
Not screw that.
And so there's some,
you know, some,
I don't know,
may you think
of it as complacency,
but I actually don't
think of it like that.
I think of it more like just
varied interests,
like our economy.
Like we're
we're not in a good spot
right now,
like in terms
of housing and shit like that,
but I don't know,
we just haven't
had the exposure
to Bitcoin in
general hasn't
hit in Australia
as much as it's hit
in, I'd say
like the US
and stuff like that,
but where it has hit
it is transformed.
So like, you know,
maybe like
80% of people
that find out about Bitcoin
and learn about it
become hardcore,
very knowledgeable people.
Like we've got some really
brilliant minds.
You've got like Stefan Lavera
podcast, he's
got a huge
following kitten
Ministry and notes
tremendous following.
And like,
these guys are real
subject matter authorities
at their craft in this sub
niche of the industry.
And like I think,
you know, there's just a
there's a lot of people
in Australia
that have got really
powerful voices,
I think for the community.
And I think that's cool.
We, I love like the Bush
bash is by far the best.
My favorite here.
Is, oh, the thousand percent.
It is the best thing ever.
It's there's nothing
there's nothing like it.
I love the concept.
And every time
I travel overseas
I share it with like,
the local organizers.
And when I went to Bali,
I actually visited Bitcoin
Bali house
and I told them
about the concept and I like
I know they
they've rejigged
the way
that they organize
the Indonesia conference
makeable grassroots.
And I wonder how
much I had to do with that.
Like hey guys,
they've gotta be like pussies.
Me visit me?
Yeah.
And then you can collect
your royalty check. That's.
Yeah.
But yeah, that's
that is the thing.
Like and
I mean like the Bush
bash, right.
Like it's so good
because it's very casual.
It's relaxed like it's chill.
Know what days you walk
in, you're not paying a
big fee to get in there.
Yes.
You've got to drive
very far to get there.
So for the audience
that doesn't know,
the Bush bash
is an Australian
sort of Bitcoin.
It's not a conference
and it's not a meet up.
It's like the perfect hybrid.
It's like a three day
meetup almost.
But the proof of work
to make sure.
So when the organizers
created it,
they wanted to make sure
that everyone there
was really there
for the right reasons.
So they put it
basically a six hour
drive from everywhere.
It's like,
yeah, but it's like,
that means that
if you are there,
you've
given a shit to get there.
Do you know what I mean?
It's not like is sweat.
People in off the sidewalk
in Darling Harbor and said,
hey, come in here
at a conference.
It's really like 150
or 200 people
or 100 people
of just straight signal like,
yeah, really
brilliant thinkers.
I find I learn so much
when I go to those things,
like you go to a dinner
and you sit next to what
you just think, like far out.
Some of these cats
are so bright,
like just the stuff
they think of is just
I don't know,
it's just it's different,
but it's always encouraging
when you hear
and see that you're like,
oh, nice.
You know,
if you saw a bunch of idiots,
you'd think,
oh shit, I'm going to start
selling my Bitcoin.
But it's a complete
antithesis.
I love it.
Yeah, I completely agree
with that.
It's it's
almost like the most
unassuming group of people
that, you know, you
just your everyday person
you cross on the street,
you wouldn't really think,
you know, they're there.
Anyone special, so to speak.
Yeah. And.
And then you pick up.
Yeah.
And it's like, whoa.
Yeah. Yep.
The most amazing
minds,
the most amazing speakers
and storytellers and.
Yeah, yeah.
Just just like
I agree with you, high signal.
I learn so much every time.
I remember the first time
I went,
after the three days
I was exhausted,
I was
my brain was exhausted
because my brain, like, just,
you know, took up
so much energy.
And I learned so much,
and I took so many notes,
you know, for podcasts to,
to listen to
and books to read. And.
Yeah, the,
the quality of conversations
you have there on like,
anywhere else.
And yeah,
I highly recommend it
to anyone.
That. Yeah.
But I wanted to ask you
a little bit more about the,
the Bitcoin adoption
in Australia
and why you think
we are lagging
behind the rest of the world.
Is it like a cultural thing?
Is it like.
Yeah, some of things.
I'll tell you why.
So in Australia
one of the biggest things
property is being our store
of value basically.
And because we have such a,
educated property market,
like everyone's
thinking about,
you know, buying property
and property
probably, probably forever
probably.
It's almost like this
saturated, like it's
so ingrained into us
with with property in general.
I think, that it
feels like that
it's it's not mean.
It means like
Australia is punching
well above its weight
in this industry
by light years.
But I mean, like, would
traditional finance
people get it right now?
It doesn't feel like
there's much of a flavor
or appetite. It's still,
or you know, like there's
no hey,
how do we get on top of this?
And because if
there was someone like that,
they will shoot a rocket
out of the
like out of the ASX.
Like they will be so far
in front of everyone else.
And I think that'll happen.
I think you get Bitcoin
treasury companies
to Australia
and that will start
lighting the fire on.
Oh my god,
what is this thing
and why is it smoking
every other asset on the
on the market.
Well it's smoking it
because it doesn't
use the same assets
as everything on the market.
It uses the other thing.
Oh the other thing
looks pretty damn
good at the moment.
Yeah.
Many planets number one
in Japan,
Microstrategy's number one
in the US and Australia
is waiting
to have something like that,
you know,
and I think it'll come in
probably the next 3
or 6 months.
It should be
actually quite interesting
because Australia's
market is a bit different
because we've
got superannuation,
which is like a guaranteed
funnel of liquidity
that goes into the market
because those super funds
have to buy
and spend their money.
So I think that's
quite interesting.
On how that changes
the dynamic.
Yeah, I don't know.
But I think,
I think we're
definitely punching
above our weight.
I just think that
the non Bitcoin people
feel further away
than they do
in other countries
or something.
I don't know,
it's hard to explain.
Yeah. No I completely get it.
It's something that
I always wonder.
It's like how can I help
these people.
Get curious
enough about it
to want to go down, you know,
the path of studying it,
understanding it more
rather than just
dismissing it.
And yeah,
like I have a background
in marketing.
So one of the sort of facts
that I love is,
you know,
before you purchase
a product or service,
you may typically have a 16
to 20 interactions
with that product or service
before you make
the decision to buy.
So yeah,
so it doesn't help that
like the mainstream media
is largely negative.
Has a negative
sentiment towards Bitcoin
and that all the, all the,
experts in the space
are really drowned out by,
I guess, some of that
mainstream media
that doesn't
quite understand
the technology
and doesn't understand
the value of it.
So yes.
Yeah, for me, I feel I mean.
Yeah, as well
the reserve Bank, they said,
oh yeah,
we're not looking
at that right now
and we don't find it
interesting or something.
It's like,
yeah, you guys are broke.
Do you understand that?
Like, you know what I mean?
Like all these people
telling me, like, bankers,
institutions and stuff,
they're like,
we don't really like.
It's like,
you guys have cooked
the entire financials system
multiple times.
In fact,
the the current
financial system is so bad
that they have broken it
like they break it
once every 20 years.
In 2008 it broke.
So we get a bailout
breaks again bail them out.
It's like
I don't want like
that's just not like
that's like saying, hey,
do you want to eat this
moldy sandwich?
It's like,
no, it's got mold on it.
It's like,
oh, do you want
to put your money
in this financial market?
No, they're not good
at what they do.
Like, you know,
that's just
a common sense thing.
Oh, they've never successfully
finished the game
and the game's been restarted
multiple times.
Okay.
Someone doesn't know
what they're doing there.
I don't I'm
not saying
every person's an idiot.
They're just getting in
and cashing in.
That's what
everyone in finance does.
But is it a good system?
No. It's terrible.
If it was good, it
be persistent.
And that's why Bitcoin is good
because it's persistent.
It won't change whether it's,
you know,
the stock
market in 1939 69 and 19 2020,
it's still the exact
same mechanics underneath it.
And that's
what Bitcoin will be
in the future.
It'll be something that we go
wow it hasn't changed in
like 50 years.
All them holy moly.
And that will be the outlying
kind of
feature of it
is its resilience I think.
But yeah it's it's
pretty crazy.
I think there's a lot of
ignorance to it as well.
Because
I think there's two fold like,
yeah,
I think there's
a lot of ignorance to it.
Just like with people,
if you're making money
in property, it's very hard
for me to convince you
to come to Bitcoin
and learn about it
and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
You know,
when you've been saving
for five years,
you just bought
your first investment
property or whatever it is?
That's awesome.
But it's very hard to like,
you know what they say.
It's like it's harder to teach
someone who already
knows something than it is
to teach a blank canvas.
And so I think it might be
a bit of that
where people
have kind of
already got this conceptual
way of developing and building
wealth through
acquiring property
or something like that,
which is totally fine
and makes complete sense.
I'm just lazy.
I don't want to go in
and have to meet a tenant
and try and
get the plumber in,
and then wait
for the carpet guy to come fix
the damaged water damage
from the wall.
Like whatever the fuck it is.
Too busy, too much
Bitcoin way easier. Buy it.
Yeah, don't do anything
and then that's it.
And I suppose
it comes down to our ability
to not do anything,
you know,
which is quite hard
because in this day and age
we're always
fidgeting with shit.
And so it's like, oh,
maybe I'll just sell this
or sell that, like,
you know, so
it becomes
like a cerebral challenge
where you've got to do
all the cerebral work.
But no physical work.
And so, yeah.
Yeah,
I've recently started
an Instagram account
for this podcast.
And yeah,
because the algorithm
doesn't recognize,
you know, treats
Bitcoin as crypto.
It's all under
the same bucket.
So it's clearly
serving me content
that is in this space.
And,
and I've come across recently,
you know,
across some Australian,
influences on crypto
and the messaging
that they're providing,
is very different
to what
the messaging
you hear from Bitcoin
is, is like for example,
I came across a guy,
he had like 50,000 followers
on Instagram
and he's selling courses.
And he's very much making.
Yeah, he's
he's making it seem like,
you need a strategy.
And I'm
the only person who knows
how to give you the strategy.
Kind of.
Yeah.
That's the approach
that they're taking.
Whereas, yeah, Bitcoin is
almost like
you don't need a strategy.
You just need to learn
about about it, hold it, learn
how to hold it for
at least four years.
And and you'll
definitely make money in it.
So just for the time.
Yeah.
With those courses,
like with those courses,
join my trading course.
Two outsmart the market
with this one simple trick.
Like, dude,
most of those,
cash grabs
for the creator of the course,
that doesn't mean
that the course is bad.
I'm just saying
that they're a cash
grab for the creator.
They need
the creator needs money.
That's that's the first thing.
So it's like, oh,
you need money.
And you're telling me
how to make money.
Something doesn't
add up right there.
Like in, in my opinion.
So it's like,
oh, if you're so good
at making money,
give it away for free.
Like if it's that beneficial.
And that's why Bitcoin is
don't have that insecurity.
I don't think
because they buy bitcoin
and it's like dude,
if I get you to buy
bitcoin or whatever
that's what's good for
the game is good
for the gander kind of thing.
And so yeah,
there's much less
gatekeeping of knowledge
or whatever.
It's more just like,
yeah, man, let me lift you up.
Here's how I got started.
And I think that's such
a healthier approach
to something
that is so intimidating.
You know,
I think Bitcoin is a typically
trying to preserve wealth.
Crypto
people are trying
to make money.
And I think that's
very different.
That's a huge distinction.
Yeah, yeah, it's
a very big distinction.
And I think
encoded in those distinctions
is the mindset, the behavior,
the discipline, the value,
whatever it is.
But the focus is different.
One is trying to make money
to pay bills
or acquire bitcoin,
which is why, you know,
we all work in fiat land
to make money
to buy Bitcoin
to increase our stack.
So a lot of people do crypto,
try ever
heaps of friends that do that.
Yeah,
they make a bag on that stuff
and they convert it
to Bitcoin.
And that's how they
accumulate bitcoin.
And it's like
okay well that's not
the right approach but okay.
Sure.
Do you
you know
and so I think it's like
I don't know,
I just feel like there's
there's a distance
between the two.
And that's
actually a healthy thing
because, you know,
I don't want
I mean, I
everyone can do
what they want,
but I don't think it's
a good branding thing
for Bitcoin
in general
to be encouraging trading
basically.
Like, that's not how you win
with this game.
The game's not about trading.
In fact,
the best traders
performance typically
have one entry
and that's like buying Bitcoin
and that's it
because their performance
is going to be
so good relative
to trades and trade size.
They're just going to be like,
yeah, I bought bitcoin
once and I haven't touched it.
My portfolio is up 30,000%.
It's like or whatever
it is right.
Like whatever the thing is.
But that's much more powerful
I think.
But yeah it's to their own.
I've no problems.
Everyone can do themselves
and do them,
but yeah,
I just think specifically
for Bitcoin,
there's less to know.
You know, like.
In, in my,
in my stalking adventures of
of your profile.
Yeah.
I can't remember
what school you went to,
but you're from a, like,
a traditional
finance background.
Yeah.
Well, like, yeah,
basically I worked in, like.
Oh, I'm like a shit student.
I'm the kid that, like,
dropped out of uni.
All that kind of stuff, like,
not like,
you know,
some of these cats
are real smart,
and they're like, yeah,
they went to Harvard
and then they went to Google,
and then I went to
fucking MIT.
I'm the turtle.
Not that, I'm
the drop kick kind of thing.
So for me, I went to
I went to high school
in College Hill.
And then I went to college
at University of Technology
in Sydney, which was
oh, and I went to
Ba'athist University,
which is another
like out in the States.
But yeah,
I didn't finish my degrees.
But then after that,
I got a job in finance,
which is a software.
It's like a financial
software company
that did portfolio management
and rebalancing
for financial advisors
and their clients.
And so you know, basically
it's like, hey, this client's
75 years old,
but they're in a really high
risk portfolio.
We need to rebalance that.
And it was all the
software around that.
And yeah, but I didn't
my approach from Bitcoin
like you know, the way I did
it wasn't
it wasn't like oh cool.
Finance and Bitcoin.
This is a perfect match.
It was more like finance
was just sort of where I was
because I enjoyed it
working with numbers.
But finance but yeah, I do.
I think that my or like
where I came from
was more around video games
because I really like
video games.
And I was like,
oh, mad and online
currency suite.
Now every game can have
the same currency
instead of like,
you know, paying
for one thing in one game.
And then you go
to the new game and, you know,
the sold that you just paid $9
for is an in-app purchase
or whatever isn't there.
And so it's like, well,
that'd be cool
if all the games
ran on the same currency,
and it'd be even cooler
if the internet ran
on this currency.
And so that's what I was like,
oh, sick Bitcoin.
I just like looked around
and at the time
there was no exchanges.
I don't think so.
Me and a couple
of other dudes
chipped in some money
to buy some coins and,
and that was sort
of the first entry into it,
just as like, whoa.
What's this? So.
You know,
magic internet money.
Which literally
it was much more in know,
it was much more in line
with that magic
instead of money
and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
Well, I was going to ask you,
but you might not remember,
because I even, I,
even I forget
and I went
into last year, but like,
do you remember what
some of those critical
moments were in your journey
to understanding
some business?
I feel like the biggest,
the biggest
by a billion years.
The biggest moment
that I had was,
the block size was in 2017.
So I was a CEO wire
and we were really big company
and we had
a lot of infrastructure,
that was powering
a lot of the other
like other liquidity
providers or wallet services
and stuff.
And the Blocksize
wars came about,
which was in 2017.
And it's where bitcoins
basically bitcoin split
into two groups.
Those that wanted
to increase the block size
and those that wanted to make
the block size not change.
And my not my
initial reaction was,
I guess, wait, that's mad.
That doesn't bother me.
And then I got like
the resident maxes
in our company,
the Bitcoin maxis basically.
And I asked them,
I was like, guys,
what's your take on this?
And which way should we go?
You guys are closest
to the protocol.
What's your opinion on it
and can you help me
understand everything
and the email?
They drafted the email back
to one of our investors
who was asking for us
to participate in saying,
yes, increase the block size.
But I didn't want to do that
unless the Maxis approved it,
because they know
more than I do
just in general.
Like they're closer to it
and more passionate
at the time.
And what happened
was I saw 657 or basically
all but three companies
in the industry approve it.
And I was like, oh, okay.
Well, I guess
it's going ahead then.
And then all the node runners
on the network said, nah,
we're not doing that.
And it became like, whoa.
Even though Coinbase
has got 20 million users,
BitPay had,
you know,
1 million merchants
or whatever,
that doesn't mean shit.
Like, you mean like that
didn't matter
because the nodes
are the one that vote on
whether we're increasing
the block size or not.
And then you realize, okay,
so Coinbase well,
it's got 20 million users
and a lot of influence.
It doesn't run
20 million nodes.
It only runs one or you know
eight or something like that.
So their voice
isn't as loud as their brand
when it comes to the network.
And that was a big
moment for me.
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O right the nodes matter.
Not your brand,
not the size of your startup,
not your investor roster,
the nodes.
And that was a
tremendous learning
curve for me
because that's when I go,
these guys
are the backbone of the
whole network,
which means the
entire industry
rests on these nodes.
And that really showed me
the dynamic
of who's in charge,
not who's in charge,
but more like,
what do you have
to delicately manage?
You know, that
that is the critical thing.
Like that's the,
the red button
for the nuclear warhead
or whatever is the nodes.
They're the they are the,
the first class
citizens of the, the,
the network.
And so that was huge for me
because it might
sound technical, but
it basically is like,
you know,
the people's voice
comes through.
That's what the nodes are.
Nodes are like one vote,
one person basically,
and saying that overwhelm
these humongous brands
with incredible distribution.
That's what I realized, okay,
that that's the conversation.
We're not in startup land.
This is a network
for the whole world.
And if you're a node running,
you get a say.
It doesn't matter
if you got a podcast,
doesn't matter if you've,
you know, raised
100 million, doesn't matter
if you
got a billion in revenue.
You run a node.
That's your vote.
Whether you're a ten foot
tall, two foot tall,
300 kilos, 100,
it doesn't matter
nodes, a node.
And so I think that was a real
big eye opener for me.
I was just like, whoa.
And since then
I've been really hung up
on that same premise.
Maybe I'm
just like a trauma injury
from the Blocksize Wars
or something like,
it's like, I think now
I just don't want change
because I saw how divisive
it gets.
And the problem is with things
that have tensile
strength like networks,
it's like networks
are held together
by the strength
of the connections. Right.
In the same way,
think of a glass panel
in the exact
same way as a network.
But just instead
of the nodes being sparse,
they're very,
very close together.
So, you know,
when you break glass
in those shock movies,
a shock
will swim into the glass.
It'll put a crack down it
and it's like, oh,
the shock crack.
And then the next crack start.
And then they all basically,
once you put one crack
in the tensile
strength of the canvas,
the next crack
is much easier to
to basically come.
And that's what we saw
once Bitcoin had
forked in 2017,
we saw it
go to Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin
and the Bitcoin Cash people
that then split again
to Bitcoin cash
in Bitcoin
ABC or SVR or something.
And so what it goes to show
is that,
it's less about the argument
itself and more.
Some people want more
and some people
want to keep it
as is
in general,
because the people that wanted
the change
went to another protocol.
They split off,
and then they got
more change
than they bargained for,
because then that split
split itself.
So it was like,
you know,
one into two into frame
to eight into six or whatever.
It is
basically just kept halving
or splitting.
And so that's why
especially lately with like
Bitcoin Core
and Bitcoin nodes,
I think
my side is more on
the not conversation,
but that leans mainly because
if I had to pick 1 or 2
like between
either of them, I'd pick nodes
purely out of simplicity,
like the
simplicity of the message.
This is Bitcoin.
It's a monetary network.
Use it to store value.
That.
Core to JPEGs.
Yeah.
And of course
sort of saying no, no, no,
it's not our decision to make.
It's like
that's like a parent
saying to their child
like, you know,
we can't tell our child
what to do.
We're not going to say
no to them having ice cream
for breakfast,
like anyone with their head
on their shoulders
goes, yeah, I understand
you don't want to
send to your kids. No worries.
Do you think there's
a difference between
censoring and educating?
Like, obviously,
I think that's the thing,
but what it showed me was
there's a huge divide
in understanding the protocol.
And I'm not saying
I understand it.
I'm not saying anyone does,
but I'm just saying
there's a division
in the outlook
of the protocol.
And I think
when you add complexity
in any distributed system,
it doesn't matter
if it's a group of people
or a network of nodes.
When you add any complexity,
you add
risk of
undoing all the hardness
that you've already got.
You know,
Ethereum is a
really good example.
Everyone does
everything on Ethereum,
but Ethereum is a protocol
and as money is
getting cannibalized,
it was at 2104 years ago.
It's a 2300 now.
It's three. It has. 21.
Yeah.
It doesn't catch the upside
and that doesn't
catch the upside
because there's so much
cannibalizing behavior
happening on it.
Like the L2 is a bleeding eath
dry like as a
as the network in my opinion.
And then you've got Solana
which is a
like not attacking it
but competing against it. So
this lack
of focus
is really bad in general
because when you make rules
for everyone,
which means you make a product
for everyone,
you make a product for no one.
And if you have a product
for no one,
then you have no alignment.
If you have no alignment,
you have no direction.
If you've got no direction,
you start staying stagnant.
And that's exactly what
the economic activity and,
Ethereum's price
sort of says.
It says it's
just spinning its wheels
almost like a loading sign
just going around in circles.
20, 120, 100.
I'm not saying
obviously it's
going up and down,
but I'm just saying
in general,
it hasn't caught
its new big leg up.
Like if it was matching
Bitcoin and running
in the same way,
it would be,
you know, 8 to 12 K right now.
And so I think
I don't like risking
confusion.
Bitcoin is hard to understand
for the smartest people
in the industry,
let alone
the person that's
just coming in.
If I get to talk to someone
about bitcoin,
I don't want to have to say,
yeah, you can do money or
but you can do JPEGs all
but you can also do this
and it's like you've lost me.
Like people,
people click off your video
like ask any content creator
if you don't have a book
to get people straight away
by, you're
at the end of the river.
I got a thousand other useless
bits of content waiting for me
that will give
me entertainment
straight off the bat.
And if you're a hook
in the first like one, two,
three seconds of like,
let's say it's a real
on Facebook or it's a TikTok,
that's the audience.
So in the moment
you had any confusion by
byte like, no,
I've got too many options
by I'm over it.
Like, so
any person that,
evangelizing to that,
they may have self-interest
for it.
Like as in
that might be very beneficial
to them.
But, you know,
I think Bitcoin's power lies
when people put the network
before their self-interest.
And that's where
it gets really gnarly,
like in terms
of a powerful thing.
Imagine every single person
had the same answers
for Bitcoin questions.
That is like
a maximum alignment.
And that is really strong
because it's very,
very hard to break.
It's almost like trying
to break a religion.
You can't really break
a religion
because the core value
system is so strong
and so widely distributed.
Christianity doesn't
come out slapping new rules
on the Ten Commandments,
like they don't come out
with the 2020 version
of the Ten Commandments.
So I think, you know, a lot of
the people in the space
are hung up on Bitcoin
as a product.
Yeah.
You know, like, oh, cool,
it can do this.
It's like, well, it is that.
But think of it more like,
I don't know,
like an ethos or something.
I don't know,
that's just my take
from things I've seen.
I'm not saying I'm
right at all.
But I just find, like,
a feels like what's happening,
you know, like it
feels like, well,
you know,
if you've evangelized,
for one thing,
so aggressively,
you know, a few years ago
and now you're
not evangelizing for it
and you're actually opposing
what you're evangelizing for.
That's confusing.
So what happens is 20, 30, 40,
50 people
in the industry waste
their time arguing,
wasted time debating about it.
And da da da da da.
It's exhausting.
Like the you're
all on the same team.
Shut the fuck up
like part of my language,
but shut the fuck up. Like
it's like,
how bored are you
that you need to figure out
problems?
Like,
people also don't
respect the old system enough,
and that's a really bad thing,
because it's like
going into a,
like a sport
where you're one on one sport
and you don't respect
your opponent's abilities.
Like, that's a terrible recipe
for preparation.
It's a terrible recipe
for execution.
You should plan for the worst
and hope
for the best in that context.
And I just think that
that's kind of been
I miss it a bit,
where people think
Bitcoin's race escape
velocity can't be blah
blah blah.
Oh no, it absolutely can.
The only reason why
it hasn't been attacked
so aggressively
is because the incentive
is actually more
to not attack it.
You make more money
by just buying it
and holding it.
And that's one of the biggest
deterrents is like
people are like, well,
why would I want to
break this thing?
This thing is given me,
you know,
a whole new lease on life.
It's opened my brain up
if I didn't do anything.
But I could assure
that everyone else that used
it got the same level of
awesomeness from it.
That's a huge win
that is leveling up
the whole planet.
So if Bitcoin is under 5%
of the total adoption
rate of the world,
right, let's cool.
Let's be generous
and say there's 250 million
people holding bitcoin.
Okay.
There's 250 million
people holding bitcoin.
That's less
than 5% of the earth.
Or maybe it's like what
200 I don't know. Yeah.
Yeah. It's about yeah.
It's like less than
5% of the planet probably.
I don't think we know
how to fix anything
when we haven't even gotten
the total market
into the thing to fix.
So when people say,
oh, we're adding
features, we're adding value.
It's like to who?
Like to, you know,
what about the other 88%
or 95% of people
that are coming in
to the market?
Will they want what you want?
Oh, I don't know.
But like I hope they do.
It's going to be really cool.
And it's like
you already lost.
Like it's already
just so cool.
But every time you're
making decisions in Bitcoin,
I think it should be
thought of as,
will this be useful
for someone in 25 years?
Basically,
are you going to add
a feature?
Is that useful
for someone in 25 years?
Oh well, it's
really useful for us now
because let's say
NFTs are really hot
or stablecoins are really hot,
and this allows Bitcoin
to capture that
blah, blah, blah.
That's fine, but
it's not really relevant.
We should always
think about it
as like public infrastructure.
Like if the highway works
and it's not broken
and it helps millions
and millions of people
go from one place
to another in their life,
don't break it.
Don't add a fucking McDonald's
on the way.
Don't add that shit
like we don't need that shit.
Keep the highway, the highway
and keep everything else.
Like let's focus.
Let's focus on something.
And if you don't
focus on something,
you can't go forward.
And so when people
like to say, oh,
Bitcoin's for everything,
that's the B,
that's just lose the chat.
It's not for everything.
It's money.
Like it's not even a debate.
It's money.
And it's
okay to say
that is just sort of
like trying
to define ice cream
to your children
and saying, well, it's
actually food.
So I'm not bad person
feeding my kids.
It's like, you know, better.
Like that's a good analogy.
Yeah.
There's no
there's nothing else to say.
You know better.
And your ego will have
that conversation with you
when you're ready than.
Like me,
you're a Bitcoin conservative.
The way the mechanic
would describe it.
You can eat.
He's like
Bitcoin conservative.
I just
with big shit that's
very expensive
and very precious
and very fragile
and very,
very important to the future.
I don't want it. Yeah.
I'm conservative.
Keep keep the national parks
green and keep
bitcoin the same.
That's
we preserve things
that are really valuable
that are really hard
to reproduce.
And the hardest thing on earth
to reproduce
about Bitcoin isn't
it's not
how to hash a transaction
or how to get consensus.
Well, it's basically
yeah,
basically
an unchanged protocol
for 16 years.
Show me something
that has not changed
in the past 16 years
in this environment like wild.
And so when we
think about that, it's like,
oh shit,
we need to be treating this
like,
you know, like it's
a precious resource.
You know,
this is a watering hole
for the whole planet
to drink from.
Just like you see in Africa,
zebras are drinking next
to the hyenas who are drinking
next to the leopards
or whatever.
They put the tools down
when everyone needs water,
and then they get back
to killing each other later.
But they all they don't shit
in that thing
basically, right?
Yeah.
Like I don't want to
litter on my chain.
I don't want fucking toilet
paper rolls in the ocean
or chip wrappers
like it's common sense.
And you know, you can
argue it all you want, but
arguing it
just means that
you're sort of dignifying,
you're sort of illuminating
a lack of common sense,
like you're
trying to argue with me
whether Bitcoin's
money or not.
I'm not arguing with
can it technically possibly
be this being maybe
with eight changes
in six years,
anything can be anything
that's not smart.
To identify
something is like a problem.
Identifying
solutions is smart.
Everyone can identify
problems.
That's not a hard thing.
It's very easy to be negative.
It's very easy
to understand, like
what could be better.
But if you don't
provide solutions
with your chat,
I find it pretty.
It's sort of like you're
just letting your
inner voice talk out loud,
but it's not really
a constructive value adding
come back.
Yeah,
I say
that is like someone
who just
absolutely yaps
their head off.
So yeah,
I think like
I mean, like I'm a,
I'm talking to myself
in this case to.
I was
actually going to ask you,
about Australian bitcoiners.
If on your travels
you've noticed a difference
like cultural differences
between Australian
bitcoin is and Bitcoin
is from overseas
in other countries,
doesn't that away from
I mean I've heard some
interesting things,
but I'm keen to know
what your take is.
No, I reckon
that's probably the most
refreshing thing.
Everyone is speaking
the same language.
Yeah.
You know, like for me
that's been the easiest.
You find alignment so quick
and after realizing
like after this, I'm like,
damn, now I get why
religion is massive.
Like it fully makes sense.
Hey, I don't know,
you had no idea.
But you're religious.
Yeah. Same religion. Hey.
All right,
we got that in common.
And you follow the same
ten value,
ten values
or ten commandments that I do,
whatever it is.
So it's
sort of like helps
expedite alignment.
Yeah.
Why was the
question originally.
Oh, if you've noticed that
like Australian
bitcoin culture.
Yeah. Not personally.
No. Yeah.
I like
having worked in America
and spent most of my time
with the American
Bitcoin community
and then coming
back to Australia,
I didn't think that
was much different.
Everyone's got the same
same things
that make them happy,
same things that give them
the shits, you know, like it's
all it's
the same conversation.
And most of that's
got to be the case
because we're all
getting information
from the same sources,
you know? Yeah.
And that is
what community is,
but it keeps the alignment
like.
Yeah,
I think it's really powerful
when you feel like
you are with your people,
it's like,
oh my God,
this is what having friends
feels like, right?
You know.
I love
I love that you said that.
Make friends as an adult.
And it's interesting
because I've engaged
in so many
different activities
as an adult,
whether it's like free
diving or salsa dancing.
Like until I got into
Bitcoin,
I didn't really feel like
the sense of community
that I feel,
in any other
sort of interest group.
And, and I can,
I feel like I can travel
anywhere in the world
and join a meet up
and just strike up
a conversation
and really connect
with people
unlike anywhere else.
It's it's 100. Percent, 100%.
And one of the things I heard
at the Bitcoin Bush bash was,
you know, it was buy it
from Wiz,
Wizard of Oz Aussie guy.
And he started he
great guy, smart guy.
And he started
he started the Bush bash
and he said
Bitcoin is
everyone is 80% the same.
But there's these 20% edges
where you're Bitcoin
and I'm a bitcoin.
But I'm a bitcoin owner
who is obsessed with
rock climbing.
And you're a Bitcoin
who is obsessed with
plumbing or something.
I don't know
like some different thing.
Right.
Like totally unrelated
or whatever it is.
Yeah. Salsa dancing.
So you're obsessed
with salsa dancing?
I'm obsessed
with rock climbing.
But having that common ground
and that common alignment
that makes for super
interesting, fast
paced conversations,
because you've got 80% of,
oh, you're the same as me
kind of thing, basically,
but mostly now,
what's your other like, quirk?
What are you into?
Well, my thing is,
you know, your thing.
Whatever. Salsa dancing.
But that brings these kind of.
It's like sprinkles
on the cupcake.
It's like all
the cupcakes are the same,
but there's a different
frosting on some of them,
and you're like,
oh, this is the cherry
frosting one.
And you talk to the guy
that's obsessed
with cherries or,
oh, they've got a rock
climbing cupcake.
It's a little rock
climber guy on the top,
whatever it is.
But it's sort of like that.
It's just like different,
different flavors
of the same thing, basically.
But it means
that when you talk to them,
you can translate information
much faster,
because I can use Bitcoin
as an analogy to things.
And you know
that to the depths
of your knowledge.
And so we can sort of
fast pace
connecting the dots
between different
parts of society,
whether it's YouTubing,
being salsa dancing
and someone being into
rock climbing,
you guys
can connect all the dots.
It's like,
yeah,
you can just understand the
the mechanics
of HowStuffWorks.
Yeah, I love it,
I love it,
yeah, I love it
because you can immediately
skip the small talk and.
Yes, yes.
Sorry.
Yeah,
I can meet like a brand
new person
I've never met before.
An instantly connect with them
and going to conversations
that you wouldn't
typically have with
people say at work,
I can bring up politics,
I can bring up taxation,
I can bring up all these
different things
and hear their perspective
without either party getting,
angry or defensive about it.
So I really appreciate yeah,
I really appreciate
that element
in our community as well.
Oh, and healthy,
healthy discussion. Yeah.
I think that's
one of the coolest things.
Like,
I think it's awesome
because you get to listen
to these,
you know,
really clever
people with lots of experience
going back and forth.
And then they shake hands
and they go for a beer.
I like that.
I think it's great
because everyone's
only arguing
for the same thing
usually,
which is bitcoin to win.
And like
if you think about it,
Bitcoin is very like a
it's like a world
Group project.
Basically
you remember a university
as like you get guys
who everyone get into
teams of four.
You're going to be doing
your group assignment
for the term.
It's like that buffer ever.
So the group
assignment is Bitcoin.
And it's got a
we've got to make it
last forever.
So I think people know that.
And we sort of carry
a certain responsibility
almost like
I think it's like
humanity's child
and we need to raise it.
And so we want to give it
good values.
We don't want it to inherit
all the dog shit
that we are as human.
It's like
it's a chance
to create a greener pasture,
not bring all the
dog shit again, as I said, but
like, bring the old stuff
that's trash
and put it onto Bitcoin.
It's like, yeah,
that's that's lose
a town dude.
Like get out of here.
We got a high bar
high standard
you know I think
but I also think Bitcoin's
been like
I literally personify
it like like
you know
like Michael
Jordan or something.
I think of it
like Michael Jordan.
It's like a 16 year old
or a 17 year old dude.
And like,
I think about it like that
because it's like, well,
it's our responsibility
to protect it or him
because it's out on its own.
It doesn't have parents,
it doesn't have family,
it doesn't have friends.
It has people
that want it to win.
And that's all that matters.
And so,
like if everyone took
that same approach
that they have with Bitcoin,
which is wanting it
to succeed,
imagine if we did that
with our friends and,
you know, colleagues
and stuff,
like we went out of our way
to make sure
that people succeed.
I think that's incredible.
It is like that's cool.
It's cool
that we've all got that
soft spot for Bitcoin.
You know, I think it's
Yeah, it's it really is.
And what I love about it,
like I'm
going to take
some surfing classes.
And I overheard a school today
and the instructor
was talking to the students
about weather conditions
and giving these really
comprehensive lesson
on, on weather.
So I thought about this
for a second.
It's like you go
to learn about surfing,
but then you have
this secondary benefit
of learning
about weather conditions
and understanding
how how different
types of winds work.
Yeah.
And I feel like
I thought about this
because for Bitcoin,
it's like
I feel that's one area
that just expands
your interest in.
So many
different vast areas of, of,
interest that
that you can just forever
keep going down
different rabbit holes.
And that's
what's so most
beautiful thing about it,
you might start with,
I guess, I don't know,
Austrian economics
and then really get
into cryptography
and then get into
protocols and.
100%, that's literally me.
I'm like, oh, cool.
Because then you get
all these different
like little avenues
that because it's
a dependency, right?
I've had I try to think about
why is it
why is it
when you get into Bitcoin,
you start seeing
everything differently.
So what it is,
you start realizing
how money flows, I think.
And the
in the traditional system
and why Bitcoin is good
because to understand
why bitcoin is good,
it means you
have to understand the problem
that it was trying to fix.
And so when you understand
that problem,
what happens is
first you put on your critical
thinking cap.
So you like
chalk it on
you like write
piece by piece
what's going on.
And you go through it.
And as you start
forcing yourself
to do critical
thinking like
great example wallets,
or I put it on the this,
then I put it into that.
Like every time you move
your private key,
you are like,
is there anything else here?
Nope.
Step like,
you're so paranoid about it.
Almost.
And that's
because like that teaches
you critical thinking.
So when you're like, oh,
I can't put it onto that USB,
my mum use that
for the family photos
and it got infected
and maybe it's going to room.
You got to be really,
really cautious
in that regard.
So the critical thinking
it opened your mind
to critical
thinking and
understanding how
the frame by frame going
step by step will benefit you.
So what you do,
you've got critical thinking.
And now you understand
the power of incentives
because that's
a Bitcoin revolves
around this incentive models.
So now you look at Bitcoin
you're like okay cool
that's Bitcoin.
Then you look back
at the old system
and you're like
it's like you've just woken up
from a dream or something.
You're like, oh my.
How like
how did I not see
this already?
And it's just like
you just see the machine,
the cogs in the machine,
they're paying them
to make them vote for that.
And that's
getting there and that.
And
and you start understanding
incentives and critical
thinking so much
that it's
almost as if you see
everything in a new light.
So you start
looking at everything like,
oh my God.
So you look at politics,
you look at business,
you look at
finance, you look at
history like.
And that's why
a lot of people
can go into the like, crazy
conspiracy valley
because it's like, well, I'm
thinking and I see
all these incentives
of the old system
and they just
basically immediately
go, well, okay, basically
the entire system is cooked.
And then they think, well,
they've been lying about that,
so maybe they're lying
about all the other stuff.
And then it's like,
now then, then it goes one.
Then people just don't
let the thread go
and they're like, okay,
the moon landing was fake.
This was fake.
That was fake.
Everything's fake.
And it's kind of like,
you got to get
to the other side of the
the rabbit hole, almost,
where everything becomes fake.
But I'm not really there yet.
I don't
I try not to
give too much thought to that.
Like my feed pumps
me with, like,
it's like it's
trying to make me more
of a conspiracy theorist
or something.
The only thing you can do
and it's too
noisy is just check out
any final. Yeah. Like the end.
Yeah.
The way I think about it,
it's like to me
it's almost
the truth is crazier
than the reality.
And and when you understand
the global financial system
as it is,
you don't really
need to go down
conspiracy theories
because the way
you understand it
is it already
sounds like a
conspiracy theory.
Yeah.
You know, just a true
standard. It's.
Yeah.
Like when you tell
your friend to.
Verify
all information, that's.
Yes. That's it.
You tell anyone?
Sounds like a
conspiracy theory. Yeah.
It's really.
Yeah. It's just so bizarre.
But I think
one of the hardest
things about it
actually is
maintaining relationships at a
meaningful level.
We've
people around you
in your life that aren't
in the same journey.
It's challenging.
Like, you know, people
call them normies or whatever.
But like,
you know,
I do like the idea of
just hanging out my friends,
talking about sport
and doing stuff like that.
Like it doesn't
have to be Bitcoin 24 seven.
I think there's
some healthy balance there.
But I definitely
yeah, I definitely find,
sometimes people can feel
quite alienated,
you know,
because they're like,
oh my god.
But no one wake up, wake up.
It's like you're
trying to yell at everyone
to wake up or whatever.
And so sometimes
people can feel alienated.
They can feel like
they're sort of crazy,
because they're like,
oh my God,
if I just
knew to my whole life
going all in on this thing
and maybe I'm overthinking it
and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
Yeah, but it's it's it's
I wouldn't say courageous, but
yeah, you got to
you got to put it you.
Yeah.
You got to,
you got to play the game
basically and go for it,
I think.
And so
yeah, I just,
I think that a lot of people
have had these experiences
at one point
in their journey
where they feel
quite alienated
or they don't feel like
they're old social circles,
serving them or something
like that.
But but yeah, I don't know.
I think it's
I think it's interesting.
I just think
we're really lucky
to have it, to be honest.
Like, yeah.
The world is so cool
right now. Like, it's
like bonkers.
Like everyone
is cheating on everyone.
Everyone's bombing everyone.
Everyone hates each other.
Everyone's pissed off.
Everyone's
overworked, underpaid,
two anxious mental health
issues like mental health.
Right?
It was men's
mental health month.
June, I think.
But listen to this.
The stats
like this is how cool
the world is.
One dude every three hours
and for every three hours
and 40 minutes,
one guy in Australia
will kill himself.
That's insane.
And tequila raw.
Western Australia
has a very bad problem
with this.
Oh. It's so bad.
It's like,
you know,
this is half the species.
Guys, girls,
if you don't like guys
and you're feminists,
no worries.
You can't have kids.
Like.
Like we need guys,
we need girls.
We need both of them in men.
And I'm
under the age of 40 in the UK.
Oh, my God.
The number one cause of death
isn't stabbings.
It's not diabetes,
it's not car accidents.
It's people tapping out.
And that is just like if
I always think about this,
but like, man,
I just wish
sometimes
these people got bitcoin.
Like because it is
honestly the
the biggest declutter
for your mind.
And it can give
a lot to your brain
and your mental health
at the same time.
It can obviously spend
you, send you into a tizzy
like what
the hell is actually going on?
Sure,
but that's more
enjoy that part.
But you know, like,
life isn't meant to be,
you know,
sitting on the edge
of your bed,
questioning everything
you've ever done
and then topping
yourself like,
you know, like
that's not the way to do it.
And I don't think
I think Bitcoin
has got
a breath of life in it.
That will change
a lot of people
that are currently like that.
It's not about like, oh,
I got Bitcoin at 100 grand
and now it's 10 million.
Yeah I'm rich.
I'm not
that I'm not unhappy anymore.
I think they'll get more of
a sense of belonging.
Community and also like
something to cheer for
because one of
the problems with
when we have access to
everything is individuals.
All of our, like,
everything delivered.
I want a TV
delivered in two hours.
I can literally press,
like, five buttons.
And it happens.
But like that isolation
and that individualism
kind of thing with, you know,
everyone's empowered.
Everyone can do themselves,
everything themselves.
Yeah, that's fine.
You need to
depend on your community
and you need to give
to your community.
So it's like, you know,
you buy your shit
from the local
butcher, cold day,
and you get your coffee
from the local coffee
shop from the,
you know, the guy called Tim,
and that's what they do.
They had the coffee guy
that's a butcher,
and you got your plumber
and you got these.
But as people
get more individual
and not community orientated,
we lose a higher purpose
or a goal.
And typically
before that is like holding
a responsibility over us,
you know, God and Jesus
and stuff like that.
Religion does a very
has a very powerful way
of doing that.
It makes you realize that
it's not you
and it's something
bigger than you.
And now you
start working towards
that bigger thing,
and you do your best work.
When you're not
working for yourself,
you're working
towards something else
as part of a team.
And so,
I don't know,
I think that's a big,
that's quite interesting
just to me, just in general,
the amount of declutter people
have had in their lives.
And yeah,
I think there's a
lot of
residual effects of Bitcoin
and going on a
Bitcoin standard.
But you have to do the work
and that's
where it gets
harder and harder.
So every single day that you
you don't start
looking into Bitcoin.
Not only
the Bitcoin
is running away from you now
but also your dopamine center
is getting worse
and worse as we age
and as we use screens more.
And as we mix
those two behaviors together,
aging and screen time,
it will only get harder
to understand.
You know,
it's like saying, hey,
you're ten years
old, get
in a really good habit
of brushing your teeth
every morning
and every night and showering
before you go to school
because when you're old,
you want to do that.
And if you don't
have a habit of it developed
when it's easier,
it's only going to be
like it's it's always harder
as you get older
to change things
like change your habits,
change your carrot
or whatever.
So I think that's
quite a thing where,
people can use it as a
it's like a
I don't know,
people can use it as a source
of responsibility almost.
And it does become
quite religious in that way,
because you're
operating for something
beyond yourself.
And the moment
you start acting
truly with the intent
like that, it becomes like a
a reshaping of your brain
where it's not,
you know,
it's not about me and me
trying to be like,
how do I do this?
This is like,
oh, I've got this thing
that I'm working on.
It's like people
that collect model trains,
they go to their model
train, meet up and everyone,
and they have that, you know,
that one hour a month
where it's
just nothing but straight
model train conversation
and everyone loves
and it fills the cup up
because they see
all these other people
that are like minded.
And I think when you
have like minded people
all together,
it provides
like a boost of confidence
individually for each of you.
Like even you, right?
You said
you go to a Bitcoin meetup,
you know,
you can find a conversation.
You know
you'd be able to slide
right in.
It's sort of like,
it's like a, I don't know,
an express path.
It's like taking the elevator
instead of the stairs,
you know, a
lot of conversation.
You'll be able to skip
the walking up the stairs.
I just took the elevator.
I'm with Bitcoin. Hey, great.
Did you see that thing
the other day?
Yeah I did how she.
It's like it doesn't matter
what country you from.
You're all looking
at the same things
because these are
all the same things
concerning your baby
or you know the baby. Bitcoin.
Yeah. Yeah
yeah.
It doesn't
doesn't matter
what age the person is.
Doesn't matter
what gender they are.
What nationality exactly.
It's just yeah
a fast track to
to that conversation.
Yeah I think that's cool.
I tell you what's really cool.
Like seeing like,
so the guy from Meta Planet,
Dylan LeClaire
or Dylan
LeClaire or something. Yeah.
Dylan LeClaire, I think it is.
He's on on planet board.
He's like super young, right?
And you never see
these finance cards
that I ever see beyond.
And I think that is, like,
just cool.
I think it's cool
that a 20 year
old is excited about
money and,
like, and changing money
like that means that there's
so much hope coming through,
you know?
And also,
like when I was 20,
I didn't give
a shit about money,
like financial markets
and stuff.
Idiot.
Like,
I was trying to drink
a liter of vodka
a day or whatever it is.
You know,
like when you're 20 at uni,
like you're doing everything.
So it's like, yeah,
I got that. By the way.
Later a day for one year
now, I didn't,
I have cirrhosis of the liver
or septicemia,
poisoning of the blood.
But yeah.
So I think that's
super encouraging.
I think that's really cool
because I'd like to see
more people
that are young,
whether they're 18 to 30,
making an impact
in things that matter, like,
but don't be fucking don't
go do this and do that.
Like you like
they should be the ones
making the change.
Because when they're 40,
they'll have had
20 years experience.
Like that's insane.
And not like,
oh, we've got to give it
to the 65 year old dude
because he's
the oldest guy in the room
and he'll know it's best.
No, like I'm over that.
Like, look at the decision
making we've got.
This is what we've got.
The best thing made by
humanity was built
by someone anonymously.
That's how bad
that system is.
They can't
make something
better than that.
And so we did that.
It was.
Yeah. Oh, what a blessing.
Can you imagine?
You would
you be
in a fucking
mental institution
without Bitcoin right now?
I mean I was
just going to ask you like
can you imagine your life
now without Bitcoin?
Because to me
that would be
the most scariest,
scariest thing. Terrifying.
Yeah. Petrifying.
Absolutely petrifying.
And I get scared every day
that I'm like
what if it goes away?
Oh my god what happens?
Oh my god no.
And and then that
when you think about that
that's when you actually go,
now I've got to run a node
or I've got to take action
and you want to take
some sort of action,
you go buy a big beat ax mine
or whatever it is.
I've got my bit ax.
It's actually off
at the moment,
but the hashrate
dropped materially
because of that Iran bombing.
So I'm actually like now
like, oh,
this is a great value capture.
I could possibly mine
for a more efficient thing
now that the
the difficulty has gone down.
So do you run.
It but.
Do you run not.
Yeah of course. Yeah.
Well no. No no.
Like I, I think
I support the not conversation
I do and I don't
obviously core was fantastic.
So with the Jordan
like some
of the 95 Bulls in the NBA.
But it doesn't mean I'm
going to bet on the end
like the Bulls
to win this year
because Scottie Pippen
and Michael
Jordan used to play for them
like if Coors
had a material rotation
of developers
and community members.
Since that
really awesome work,
then I'm just going to judge
them.
I'm not going to judge them
by the people
or just judge them
by the work.
And so I think the work
seems contentious.
Like they said,
they said, notice
something two years ago
and they just
they made their own
sort of mess.
I think they fumbled the bag.
Basically it looks like,
but you know, a
lot of people go, oh, Bitcoin
not is maintained
by one developer.
Yeah.
And it's a fork
of Bitcoin Core.
Well you want 30 developers
maintaining a fork like
no I don't think so.
But also if you've got
if you have 30
developers on a product
that is to run
a distributed system,
that's the perfect way
to attack it in my opinion.
Like if I was send,
someone said, hey,
you got to break Bitcoin.
I'd be like,
okay, sweet,
well, let's go compromise
the developers.
So when people go on,
you know
not is run by one
person, great.
That's one person
that can be compromise.
That's one person
value system.
I have to understand
that's one person who
can be paid or not paid,
but it's one
like the attack
vector is social in Bitcoin.
All I do is trust him a lot.
Well, you trust him a lot, but
that's okay
because if it's wrong,
you know exactly who to shoot.
Like not literally,
but you know what I mean.
Like, you know the person
who's eating the shit sandwich
who did this, you know,
if you're at work,
who did this?
But I was the only person
on that project, right?
Account ability.
That is perfect
when you've got to see
a fucking half
assed conversations
going on and like, oh,
we got 30 developers. Great.
That's terrible news.
I don't want 30 developers
because that's 30
human beings,
which are the weakest link
in every single system.
You're telling me like,
that's a good thing.
Hey, I've got 30 weak links.
You've only got one.
It's like, but
I'll take the one
every day of the week
because I know
if you're attacking them,
the attacker doesn't
want one guy to compromise.
That's not good.
You want 30 people
because that's 30
shots on goal.
Hey, man,
I need you to put
through this code review,
but I need you
to update the code.
Okay, cool.
If the not guy says
no, there's no other
there's no other way to do it.
But if you've got
30 people on a team
or ten people on a team,
you can plan with one guy
for six months before
to bring in the third guy
three months in.
So then you plot your course.
That's what people do.
That is
what happens
in the real world.
And people are looking at it
like, oh,
that's so ridiculous.
The thing,
no is a $2 trillion asset.
Like, we're not pulling
your dick in your basement.
Like, this is real.
This is as real as it gets.
And I'm not, like,
going
to not overthink something
because there's a
there's 500 million
people or billion
people
waiting to have this same
beautiful experience
in Bitcoin that I have had.
You have had
you had, you know,
so do you think we just
maybe just just keep it down.
And that's how
I think about it
because I think,
I think
everyone does
really good work.
And I think we're really lucky
to have everyone doing
good work and everyone
bickering and arguing,
because that's good.
That's healthy discussion,
especially when
people are passionate.
Nothing more dangerous
than apathy.
That's the only thing
that can kill.
Bitcoin, in my opinion,
is apathy, which I love. This.
Yeah I love this. Yeah.
Which Bitcoin is.
That was so disagreeable.
Yeah. Super disagreeable.
And like I'm all for it.
I'm happy
for the conversation.
But like when it becomes
you're
just, you know,
when it becomes sort of,
you know, they try and hero
speak where it's like,
this is too technical.
You wouldn't understand.
You better start
helping me understand then,
because I'm
the guy that's voting.
So you don't have to. But.
And then the long story short
is that no matter what,
division is
the worst thing possible.
And some people like
thriving on that,
but they don't realize
this isn't a product,
this isn't tech.
This is a social experiment.
Because if the
social layer breaks,
everything else breaks.
Oh, will it technical?
It's still up and running.
No one gives a shit
about bitcoin anymore.
The social layer broke it.
It's not immutable.
It keeps changing.
The social layer is
the defense system.
So when people sort of bring
technical nuance to a
conversation about social,
I don't think that adds value.
And I think it also misses
their on like, it sort of
speaks
more to their understanding
than their misunderstanding,
or speaks
more to their misunderstanding
than their understanding.
Again, I'm just one, literally
one other node on the network
and I don't
I genuinely don't know
what's best for Bitcoin.
But I think
when you do not know
what something is
safe, safest
bet is to always stay put.
You know,
if it's not a hell yes,
it should be a hard no. Yeah.
And so like
that's pretty straightforward.
And people are trying to think
like, oh, it is a hell yes.
You guys are the minority
or whatever.
It's like no one's
the minority.
There's no consensus
on anything.
But the moment people start
getting frustrated is
then that's
when they start
taking more action.
It I don't know,
but it's been interesting.
I haven't seen something
make Bitcoin look
as mortal as that.
Recently that
not conversation.
Just because
it was so polarizing,
everyone thought they had
the same baseline of
this is what Bitcoin
this is
what we're working
to make Bitcoin ours.
And then sort of
through that discussion
a lot of that
those assumptions broke.
And it's like
well did they break
or did opportunity
interrupt them.
Like so did that person
really not understand
what was going on with money
and thinking it was money,
or as a new opportunity
presented themselves
where they're happy
to compromise on that?
But you know what I did?
I lost heaps
fucking buying these terrible
BRC 20, you know, ordinals.
I lost heaps of money
doing that.
I shouldn't have done that.
I will
I'm going to make it back
by trading this coin.
That's how people
lose their stock.
They have one bad trade,
and then they try
and trade out of that.
And I lose that whole stack.
Yeah.
And so when I see people
switching, switching gears,
I'm like,
how just how bad
is your gambling problem.
Like that's
what all I think
when they're like,
no, no, no Bitcoin is money.
Because they're like, oh.
Actually we should
yeah, I'm
going to be the I'm going to.
Launch a token.
And then it's like,
how badly down are you?
Like, you know,
because you should
you should have been following
the manuscript this whole time
by five bucks,
whatever you can afford
per day, and you'll be okay.
But anyway.
But I think
either way, it's nice
that people, you know what?
It's a privilege
to have a community
that gives a shit, you know?
Yeah, at least I give a shit.
And that's
that's the
everyone gets a gold star,
in my opinion,
for just giving a shit.
So, you know,
that's better than nothing.
But I also love
the contrast
between normies
or regular people
thinking what they assumed
to be
the risks in Bitcoin,
and then the conversations
that we have internally
like so different.
Yeah. Right. Like yeah.
It's very different.
We don't talk
about volatility.
Like no.
No that and that's
that was obviously you know
that was the conversation
at the beginning
because you needed
to explain it.
But now a lot of people go
yeah Bitcoin is volatile.
But they sort of
they default is like
yeah but it keeps going up.
So that volatility fear
is actually not
as common anymore.
I feel like like
it used to be
what they lead with.
But now everyone
sort of knows
that Bitcoin just keeps going.
And that's what it should be
known for.
It keeps going. Yeah.
Because you might be spending
a bit too much time on Twitter
because that's not
my experience.
Like oh. Really?
Some time. Yeah.
When I spent some time
on LinkedIn.
Just posted
things here
and there about,
you know, Bitcoin and you get
it was interesting
because he did
draw a lot of attention
from traditional finance,
really criticizing it
and then subsequently
criticizing me personally.
And some like quite,
you know,
big names or not,
not so much names,
but titles like
CEOs of company CEOs
of ASX listed companies.
Yeah.
Had a lot to,
you know,
negative things to say.
So it's it is
eye opening
to see how early
we are
still in this conversation.
Asian,
especially in Australia.
I don't think like
I had a look at Natalie
Brunel's LinkedIn.
I was like people giving her
the same sort
of criticism in there,
not because in America,
I think the landscape
and the climate is very,
very different.
People are a lot
more accepting
and understanding of it.
And, and obviously,
like the adoption is a lot
higher there.
Yeah.
But it's science further along
I think. Yeah.
We, we,
we are behind because the
I still keep
getting questions
about volatility
is like the main one.
Bitcoin
has no intrinsic value.
This one gives me
an eye twitch
every time I hear it.
And then
do you think quantum
computing is a threat?
Yeah.
And it's like, oh yeah.
What's funny
is quantum computing.
The last thing I will go for
is bitcoin because exactly.
With bitcoins it's all.
Worry about.
Like other than someone
trying to break it
out of principle for notarize.
But yeah,
any person like Alan
Turing during the war
when they broke Enigma,
they didn't come out and say,
fuck you, we broke Enigma.
They were like,
we can't tell anyone
because then they'll keep
sending messages,
you know, like
so I think
quantum would be the same.
They would make sure
that they're just taking
from domain addresses
or whatever.
But
but yeah, it's, Bitcoin's
the last place
you want to probably, try and
like, hack or compromise
because that's going to be
the thing feeding you forever,
you know, going like. Yeah.
So that's how
I think about that.
Banks,
all those systems and stuff,
they just get totally wiped.
Not even wiped.
Just deformed.
It's like someone having
access to your quarterly
financial statement in Excel,
and you get to go to bed
and you give
10,000 people write access
so they can write in
whatever they want.
When you wake up
in the morning,
odds are it's
going to be very different
to what you left it.
Oh hey guys, here's
my quarterly
results spreadsheet.
Can I leave it with you
and not touch it
even though
you got access to change it?
Can I guarantee. Yeah, yeah.
When you
wake up in the morning,
be every totally different.
And that's,
that's exactly
what a quantum computer
will do to
our timeline of internet.
It'll just keep it
just going through everything
and change it all, like change
whatever it wants.
Which basically means that
when you've changed
everything,
you don't have
anything anymore.
And so you kind of
just sort of say farewell
to this big data set,
you know,
that gets
put on pause from there.
And there's post quantum
cryptography and stuff.
But post-quantum
cryptography is still not
the answer.
That's like a bandaid
on a broken arm.
The and like
the bigger problem
is that all this stuff
comes back to the same thing,
which is prime numbers.
And so
all cryptography is dependent
on prime numbers. But we know
very little about them.
And that means like
we don't know why
they show up
or how they show up
or where they show up,
but they keep showing up.
And so that mystery becomes
the perfect place
to use as identity.
Like, if I want uniqueness,
prime numbers unique.
So I make sure I use prime
numbers in RSA
cryptography, in,
elliptic curve
cryptography key fields.
Prime. Yeah.
Basically
they show up everywhere.
But if one mathematician knew
something that
the rest of the world didn't,
they own the world
like own it.
Not even like, like,
this is what keeps
me up at night
because there's so many smart
cats out there.
It's like someone's
going to get these problems on
hard enough to not be solved.
Like, that's what I mean.
It's sort of like,
it doesn't feel hard enough
that they can't be solved.
And it feels like
the only reason
they're not solved yet
is because a lot of people
haven't
put their attention to it.
But once you have
everyone running
on cryptography,
which is, you know,
digital assets
and shit like that,
Bitcoin, everyone's
going to know
about cryptography.
And then people get greedy
and they go, oh,
how do I break cryptography?
And it's like,
well what's it made out of?
And they go,
well prime numbers.
And they go,
well how do we break
prime numbers?
Well, let's get some maths
nerds into focus on this.
And they put resources to it.
You know,
these things happen
on the times
of real critical duress.
So yeah,
you know,
they split the atom, right?
With the nuclear bomb.
They figured out how
to split the atom.
But just before it,
I thinking,
you know, if
we had another war,
the next big win
would be splitting the hash.
Basically,
who can break a hash or a key?
And that will grant access
to the world, basically.
So whoever's in charge,
whatever countries
are fighting or whatever,
that's the new atom bomb
because it steals
everything instantly
and it's just a math equation.
And so that is like
that's fascinating to me.
You know, all these things,
they're real threat.
That's a real threat.
Quantum, I just
I get it, it's cool.
Like it's exciting, but
I just
it's the wrong direction.
Quantum everything.
I just think quantum
mechanics is a broken, like,
approach to physics,
statistical and probabilistic.
So I just never any time
you hear the word
quantum, I'm like,
it's probabilistic
somewhere down there,
which means it's
not mechanical,
which means it's
probably flawed.
But yeah, other than that,
that's all I got.
I love it.
And last question
for you, Michael. Yeah.
Do you have
any recommendations
for people
who are new to this space
and want to, you know, you've
you've got their curiosity
now, what are some of the
practical next steps?
I definitely think
getting some bitcoin
in from like
podcasts in your diet.
So if you're listening
to this fantastic.
Thank you very much
for listening.
But other ones as well
that you might want to listen
to as a primer to understand
if you're,
you know,
if you just want to
get the building blocks
like what's the
welcome to Bitcoin?
I usually look at Robert
Breedlove Silas series.
I think that's
really powerful.
And I think Michael Saylor
is such a fantastic,
he's such a fantastic speaker
and he's very elegant
with how he frames things
for the most part.
So I think
he's very easy to learn from.
He's a great, great educator.
And I think that's probably
like one
of his biggest superpowers,
in the space
and the contributions
that he's made.
So I always send people
that direction
because I feel safe
sending them there.
I don't feel like
they're going to come back
and be like,
Mike, what was that dog
shit that you gave me?
That was a waste
of three hours, you know?
I was like, sorry.
Yeah. Anyway.
But that's what I'd say.
And I'd say, as well,
don't worry
about stupid questions.
There is no stupid questions.
And if you needed
to hear from me or anyone,
trust me on this one.
I've asked
more stupid question then.
If you heard
some of these questions
that I would have asked,
you'd be like, oh,
that guy needs
to be in a hospital.
He has no brain in his name.
Like, seriously.
And so
everyone has been there.
Everyone.
This is forum stuff.
This isn't made in China.
It's not made in America.
We don't know where it's
come from.
So until then,
we call it alien tech.
And now
there's no stupid questions
when it comes to that.
Everyone is a beginner
and the best part is,
everyone's story arc
is usually the same
or similar,
just staggered differently
in different time
intervals or whatever.
But everyone has been
in your shoes before.
If you are new
to this industry,
everyone is willing to help
you understand
because everyone
has gotten so much from it.
And it's not about
a Ponzi scheme
where they're getting paid.
It's more like
their life cup
has been filled up from it,
and it's really supported them
as an individual
on a personal level
and emotionally
and stuff like that.
And so I'd say go
easy on yourself, but,
you know,
put yourself under the in
the mix,
go to a meet up, start
listening to some podcasts.
Hey, if you're not listening
to shit about this,
how to fix your money
I don't know what you
what you're learning about,
but it's probably a good idea
because no matter
if you're 20 years old
or 40 years old,
if you don't understand
money,
you're going to have
a very challenging
next 20 or 40 years.
The person
who understands money
the best,
we'll figure out
a way to get it and move on
with life first.
But yeah,
you need to be investing
your time
and your mind into this.
Not yeah,
don't need to be paying
for stuff and buying courses
or anything like that.
Everything you need is free
and every person
that you need to speak to
is probably willing
to speak to you about it.
And I find that's quite cool.
A lot of people are waiting
for people to come around.
They waiting like,
hey man, look, okay,
can you just tell me
about this Bitcoin thing?
And you're like,
oh yes, they're coming.
You know, they're interested.
You know,
because interest
is such a big part of it.
If you're not interested
you can't make anyone
do anything right.
Like interest
is what separates
the persistent
from the non persistent.
You know, people
that train 20 hours a day
for gold versus
someone who trains three hours
a day.
I'm more persistent
because I'm more interested.
I don't feel
like I'm training.
I feel like I'm
out in the fresh air
doing the exact thing
I'm obsessed with.
I could
I the only reason I'm
not training right now
is because I have to sleep.
You know, it's
almost like kids
with video games, like,
imagine going out
to a kid being like,
hey, how would you like
to get paid to do this
all day, every day?
I'm doing it all day,
every day.
Anyway,
thanks for the free money.
That's what
purpose feels like.
It feels like
you're getting paid
to do something
that you do not think
you should be
getting paid for,
and it feels way too easy
for getting like
for the money,
you're getting bitcoins
a lot like that.
It will be good to you
if you take the time
you owe it to yourself.
Basically. Yeah.
It's the single
best investment
you can you can
make is first
learning about Bitcoin and
one accordingly.
100%.
Oh yeah definitely great.
All right thanks Michael.
That's it for this week
on the Honest Money Show.
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