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John Bower joins Stephen for the fourth and final part of our Relational Needs series. In today’s episode we’re going to cover the relational skills every mentor needs to respond to their mentee’s needs in productive ways. You may have a desire to meet relational needs, but not know how to approach it, how to talk about it, how to meet those needs healthily.
Show Notes
- John Bower - https://www.jsbower.com/
- Normandy Church - https://normandychurch.com/
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
Mentors jump into mentoring relationships for a lot of different reasons. It may be because they had a mentor growing up. It could be because they know what it's like to not have a dad around. It could be because of something they saw in the news. It could be because they know that they can't commit to foster care but could make a weekly mentor relationship work.
Speaker 1:All in all mentors have something to give. That's what gives them the confidence to jump into mentoring. But there's a problem with this approach. Mentors can come into the mentoring relationship focused on what they have, what they can teach, what they bring to the table, what they're desiring for the relationship. It's good to have experience, skills, and desires and goals for the relationship.
Speaker 1:Don't get me wrong. Rather than focusing on sharing their wealth of knowledge or imparting skills, effective mentors focus on meeting relational needs. Relational needs are the bedrock of mentoring relationships with kids from hard places. In this series, we're gonna be discussing relational needs in relationships with John Bauer, the lead pastor of Normandy Church in Dallas, Texas. Welcome back to the Youkilentor podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Steven. You know me. I'm here with my special guest for the 4th installment of the relational needs series. His name is Jon Bauer. Yo.
Speaker 1:Was that intense enough? I I felt like I needed to step it up. Yeah. I mean, it's it's like we're jumping into the ring.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know.
Speaker 1:I might as well, heavyweight champion of the world.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It doesn't work for Jon Bauer. Your name just doesn't fit the Jon Bauer.
Speaker 2:If we weren't social distancing, I would go across the table and choke you out because it does indicate maybe not heavyweight champion of the world, but CrossFit champion of Lake Highlands for a 40 year old, which isn't even true. But okay. That's rude.
Speaker 1:How long have you been doing
Speaker 2:CrossFit? Almost 2 years.
Speaker 1:That's about how long it it lasts. Right?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know how long CrossFitters CrossFit for.
Speaker 2:I think as my body decays, I will probably start modifying and then do something else, but I think I've got about 3 or 4 more years left.
Speaker 1:Because that's the one that's fairly violent.
Speaker 2:Right? I'm fairly violent. I should have been in a bloody army or something.
Speaker 1:I just I I remember seeing videos of people on, like, a a bar. Like, they look like they're having a seizure.
Speaker 2:That's because they don't have a good coach. Bro, my coach is legit. So couple fun things. One is apparently mouth breathing is bad for you. I have a deviated septum.
Speaker 2:When I leave this place, I'm going to call the ENT guy so he can break my nose and open up my pathways. So my coach has been looking at me because I can't run very well. My my kind of long term cardio is not working very well. My right nostril's bigger than my left, and apparently your left is the one that kind of calms you. And then this is the one that your right nostril's the one that kind of, like, gives you bursts of energy and so this one's bigger and I'm like one big burst of energy.
Speaker 2:Literally and this part is so deviated the doctor is like look at me look at me how many times have you broken your nose and I was like I never have and he's like you trust me you have broken your nose and so like the calming nasal passage has been shattered. So, anyway, so my coach has been like Now you believe that more than Enneagram? Yes. Because of this book that I'm reading.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I got a a free audible. Aud Audible?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, your your deviated symptom is from all the hipster glasses you wear. Just thought I'd say that. In today's episode, we're gonna cover the relational skills every mentor needs to respond to their mentor's needs in productive ways. He may have a desire to meet relational needs as a mentor, but not know how to approach meeting those needs, how to talk about it, how to go about it, meeting them healthily.
Speaker 1:So first off, John, relational needs seem simple enough to meet. You want me to be your friend? I'll be your friend. Done. Are relational needs met with that form
Speaker 2:of simplicity? I wish, but you're complicated as I tried to articulate last time. Like, you're a community within yourself. There's a future you that your present you is deciding and interpreting how the future is gonna go. You're complicated.
Speaker 2:We I love Clifton's strength finders, and you're like 1 in a trillion chance of someone having the same strengths as you that doesn't take into account your race and gender and age and stage and family of origin, and so you're complicated. And then you have this thing called a subconscious where you have your files stored up about how you had your needs met or not met, and so you can people get into what is it? Disassociation basically where they're like, yeah, I'd like this but why am I acting like a fool and ruining every relationship that I've ever been in? And so I would say I wish it was but I mean, how long have you been married now?
Speaker 1:9 years. Oh my.
Speaker 2:It's complicated. These women are fascinating creatures. And so, yeah, I wish it was easy, but it's not because, well, you're complicated.
Speaker 1:And needs are kinda never ending. You don't really, like, meet someone's needs and then the next time you meet up, they're good. They're like, oh, yeah. I'm I'm I'm great. I have no relational needs at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For a little quick plug, Steven and I are working on a video so you can get a little bit more maybe storytelling on what this stuff's all about. But my grandma, Yudviga Romanowski, miss Messina, New York in 1929, I think is when it was, when she was in an old folks home, which is probably not culturally appropriate to say anymore. My wife and I, Casey would go and hang out with her and all she wanted was for us to pay attention to her and to touch her. I held her hand.
Speaker 2:She held my face. I kissed her face. I baked little break and bake sugar cookies in their little terrible oven and just so she could taste and be seen and she just wanted to hear. We read her story, she laughed, we cried and so she had 2 needs primarily. 1 is attention and the other is, was affection.
Speaker 2:Sitting in a home, a room all by herself for hours on end was killing her. I think she was a Christian, loves Jesus, but guess what? Those needs do not go away. I just they just don't. We're literally wild for wired for relationships.
Speaker 2:If you haven't heard the first three episodes, I'll shut up.
Speaker 1:Seeing her relational needs is is a fairly obvious thing because you see her in this old folks home isolated from relationships, from her family, from her memories. And when you show up, you're bringing her all of the things that she's longed for is this connection and all of those things. Recognizing him in your mentee is probably not as obvious. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Well, I I mean, Steven, you and I have been talking about this for, like, 3 years now.
Speaker 1:And How long we've been working on this series?
Speaker 2:Yes. At least it feels like that, or maybe that's just COVID. But, the first time you came and heard some of the talks on it, that was 3 or 4 years ago. And if you've been doing this for 3 or 4 years then the grandma thing might be easier, but I think if you're just getting this for the first time I think all of it is gonna be like hopefully eye opening and difficult, but at the same time I don't know that's a good that's a good challenge. Because when you go into your family of origin, you can tend to go back into the relationship you had when you're younger, and it gets really complicated unless you had a healthy family of origin.
Speaker 2:But your point is true. Let's say this, it might be easier in the context of your family or someone that you really have a deep attachment to or love to, but then someone where you're trying to forge almost like this neurochemical connection, this attachment with and there's all of these obstacles, then, yes, it is more difficult. Throwing cross cultural, Asian stage, all that other stuff. Yes. It's like literally you you need a miracle, which Jesus prayed, let them be 1.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Holy Spirit, father God answered it in Ephesians 4. You are 1. So anyway, I'll get off that, but yes, I would say it is difficult. Even if you want to do it, it's difficult to navigate that, maybe more so than your family of origin.
Speaker 1:You you bring up this kind of concept of emotional responding.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Could you talk about talk about what that is and then maybe what that looks like in a mentor relationship?
Speaker 2:For you and I or our spouses, we have some history together, and it might be easier for us to say, I think I'm hurt, I think I'm angry, I think I'm sad, and then explain why whether it's your spouse's fault or boss or work or, you know, sickness, whatever. But a kid, like, I it's like fascinating to me. Every time I teach on this with, like, pretty much well raised people, I'm like, did your father ever teach you how to repent or ask for forgiveness or did you ever see your mom apologize to your dad or vice versa? And they're all like, no. Like, well, why in the world did you think you were just gonna magically learn how to apologize or to not yell at your wife or shut down emotionally when she comes at you quote unquote?
Speaker 2:No one's ever taught it to you. You haven't seen it modeled. And so what's really really hard is if these kiddos and you're trying to respond to them, they're not gonna act in any form or fashion that is nice and appropriate and buttoned up. They didn't go to the school that you went to where you, like, had to learn where the forks go and learn how to, like, wipe your your mouth appropriately and not talk with your mouth full, like, none of that's there. So why in the world, like, the emotional responding is gonna be harder because they have no grid for it.
Speaker 2:Theirs might be shut down. Theirs might just be, I'm gonna scream. I'm gonna run away. I'm gonna go full accusatory, whatever. And so it's really hard to even, like, think on your feet to see the need behind the deed to respond in such a way that actually causes their brain and their cortisol level to go down their their fear center, their fight or flight center to go back into a place where they can attach.
Speaker 2:And so we all need coaching on this. This is very difficult. And if we could do this in the world today, by the way, I think this is a huge solution to all the ish that is floating around, because it's it takes that relational intercept to be able to get there and meet the need in essence before people can even think rationally because their fear center's flipping all over the place.
Speaker 1:So so emotion emotionally responding is is like the phrase, so what I hear you saying is you feel this way and that that leads to stupid.
Speaker 2:So that's an example of poor emotional responding. So the idea is that, let's just say they're acting out and they're acting crazy or they're yelling or they're cussing or they're shutting down, and they're in essence giving you an opportunity to connect with them. And what you're trying to do is do the gladiator race and navigate it and try and figure out how to the correct word is attune, is to respond with words, feelings, and touch as appropriate that helps you attune to their emotions and helps you, in essence, enter into their world, leave your world, and as that kind of quite figuratively that warm blanket envelops them, the needs or the emotions, the negative side of the emotions might dissipate in order that you might respond in a way that brings something positive, a good outcome. Unproductive responses are usually facts, reason, and logic. We've all done this with our spouse.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm sad or I'm hurt because of this. Well, that's because I have a lot of pressure and that's because God is sovereign or whatever. Casey and I had lots of miscarriages and people would say the dumbest things. Well, I just know that you're gonna adopt and then get pregnant because God is sovereign. Or they just say stupid stupid things which does not attune, does not meet the need, which actually violates scripture.
Speaker 2:You don't rejoice, those rejoice, and mourn those mourn. And it leaves you isolated. So instead of like like you might be well intentioned to to help meet that kiddo's need, but if you respond with, like, facts, reason, and logic, hey, God's sovereign, If you continue to do these things, you will, I don't know, end up in a ditch, which might be true, and there's a time for that. But basically, they're gonna shut down. And so the idea is, like, how do you actually attune to them?
Speaker 2:How do you enter into their world without using facts, reason, and logic, without criticizing, without, like, leaving their world and entering back into yours and saying, well, when I was a kid, you know, my dad left me and beat me and you didn't get beat, so you need to shut up, you know, that that's really extreme, but we do that stuff all the time or neglect just flat out ignoring it like an ostrich just head in the sand. And so those are ways that you can respond poorly that don't address the emotional need.
Speaker 1:And, I mean, you kinda said it, like, are the temptation is to when someone shares something difficult or they're acting just hostile or violent or whatever, that the temptation is to be like, well, let me give you some understanding as to why you feel those things, and let me shed some light on your experience to help you navigate it Right. Which seems helpful, but a better way is just to communicate that you understand, not to communicate to help them understand. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, like, your situation where you said people would say, well hey.
Speaker 1:I mean, god is sovereign, and though your circumstances are painful, god is god is with you. He's gonna give you a kid. You guys are gonna adopt. It's gonna be okay. That's that's an attempt to give you understanding of your situation, not an attempt to communicate to you that I understand how you feel.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And and there's risk in that because when you actually attempt to enter into their world and appropriately take on their burden empathy I think is kind of overused everyone's supposed to be empathetic and I'm flat out not if you look at any of my personality test I have no empathy until I see the need behind the deed I see the deed and I'm like, you're an idiot or I'm an idiot and that's how I view the world. But when you catch a person's heart, when you catch a glimpse of what's going on and you see the need behind the deed you're like, oh, and then there's an actual bond that happens there's an actual attunement that leads to attachment and it basically cures all ills in the sense that it brings a state of shalom or peace where you can move forward. I think I said this a few times ago, but whether it's a violent act or an emotional act or a shutdown act, there's ways we can learn to respond that will lead to the the interaction ending in peace and not pieces. Peace and not pieces, which is the goal because life is gonna shatter you 10 times from here to Sunday.
Speaker 2:So at the end of this conversation, at the end of this day, I wanna have more peace than when I began because something's gonna hit along the way. I think the key in a mentor mentee relationship is learning to see the need behind the deed, learning to see those obstacles to relational unity in order that you can know and be known. And as that kiddo is known, you're gonna see the walls crumble down. You may not have solved their fatherless need, their need for food, their need for math help or ADHD medicine, but in that moment, they're gonna have just a glimpse of the kingdom which is shalom and peace and safety, which is gonna give them the ability to actually express what's on the inside good or bad, which is gonna give the opportunity to be known, which is gonna give you opportunity to know them, and that in turn is gonna give you the opportunity to attach to them, which is actually a way that you love them. And as you love them, that's what actually reshapes their brain and brings healing and restoration to whatever ill there is.
Speaker 2:And what's not gonna help is, well, a fact. God is committed to you. What's really gonna help is I'm committed to you, and I'm not going anywhere, and I'm gonna prove that week after week after week after week after week no matter what you do.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm sure you've run into people who when there's a rift, the idea is like, well, we're just we're gonna shut the book on that. We're gonna we're not gonna address it, and people disengage. Yes.
Speaker 2:So reliance.
Speaker 1:And and so that that could be I mean, at least a case that I've seen is that when people go through a difficult moment in life, some people respond by, I don't know what to say, so I'm just gonna not say anything. And, like, I remember when my best friend, his mom, she had cancer, and she was not doing well. And in that moment, I just felt this uneasiness of, like, I don't even know what I would say. I don't know how I would respond if I even saw her in this dark moment. And so my my thought was just to not engage, and she ended up passing away.
Speaker 1:And that was really difficult on me because I was like, I just felt this shame connected to I did not I did not engage in in that, and now it's over. Mhmm. And then I guess the the other side of that is, like, when you do engage, you engage in a you're not attuned. You're just disconnected from
Speaker 2:Reality or where they're at.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Well,
Speaker 2:that's so profound, actually. That's so good. So the first thing is, I would say, relationships are always worth it. Christ didn't die for my church to grow. He didn't die for my kingdom he built, but he died for relationships, which requires risk, which is in essence faith, and relationships are always worth it.
Speaker 2:But knowing what I know about you, strengths and personality, it's like when that conflict comes, a couple of things. One is you may not have someone who actually showed you, well, this is what you do in this situation. You just show up. Like, when my, my granddad who's the pastor and then my dad did it as well, it's like when the stuff hits the fan with people, show up for 5 minutes, say, hey. I'm here.
Speaker 2:I love you. I'm getting out of here. I'm not staying long. Let me know. And my grandfather did that all the time.
Speaker 2:My dad does it to this day. And it's like, I that was something I was gifted. I was shown how to do that. And so you're looking at even like that that idea of the what are your tendencies? Self reliance, self condemnation, or, selfish.
Speaker 2:And so it's almost like in that moment you're defaulting to those things and not actually taking the risk of what's driving you because you know there's attention. You know you're like how do I respond and I'm just gonna shut down. A part of that is because you haven't been shown at least at the time a way to do it. I think the the idea and even when you do, you're gonna blow it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Even if your heart's in the right spot, they won't like it. Whoever it is, chances are, but I think that that risk of engagement on an emotional level where you let it actually impact you is the hardest part. Because when you do when you respond to someone's feelings hurts, if you're receiving a mentee act crazy or shut down, and you respond with facts, reason or logic, you respond with criticism, you make it about you complaints, or you just avoid it, what you're really avoiding is a heart connect and the heart connect is a risk. It is scary and it will actually hurt you. When I think about Jesus and and the gospels, it says he was moved to compassion because because they were like sheep without shepherd and that compassion would actually drive him forward.
Speaker 2:So I was saying earlier, I'm not that empathetic. I really am not. I'd I'd like part of what God's done to me is a miracle because I'm like, you're dead to me, Steven. Goodbye. I'm serious.
Speaker 2:This is why I like it's a shock that I'm in this business, but that I'm in. But what happens is when you actually allow the other person to impact you for who they are and it hurts, not because they're hurting you, but rather because you're hurting with them, what you're doing is, again, you're partnering with God. You're gaining the father heart of God, and that compassion, not facts, reason, and logic, not your own fear, not your own criticism, not your own default. This is how I handle conflict. Like, I commanded a way.
Speaker 2:Bro, if I can see the need behind the deed of my NICU baby, like, I try to command him, 8, Enneagram him to bed when he's freaking out because he was attached to a ventilator for the first 10 weeks of his out of the womb life. And you wonder why he freaks out sometimes when I don't see the need behind the deed, when I don't actually allow it to feel what he might be feeling, I have no compassion. I I I become controlling, manipulative, lose my temper, but when I see the need behind the deed and I attuned to him even though he's 2 and he's like I'm he's using my brain to calm down, which is an essence what your mentees are doing because they didn't have someone teach them because their mom is working and their dad left. So in those places of emotionally responding where you actually allow it to you the idea of vulnerability and as is appropriate vulnerability where you feel what they're feeling is terrifying, which is terrifying. Like, we actually felt what the black men and women are feeling right now in our generation.
Speaker 2:If we actually felt what the police officers are feeling, like the good guys, you know what I mean? Or even the bad guys, why why they are acting like they're acting. If we actually allowed ourselves to be vulnerable enough for relationships so that we could know and be known is terrifying because what happens if we actually know them, they could hurt us, or we actually are known, we could be hurt. And so this idea of emotional responding is really hard. It's what we want, but it has to be taught and imparted and modeled and all of these things and it just takes time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that process isn't simple of learning how to do that.
Speaker 2:No. I mean, getting married or being a business partnership or anything is terrible.
Speaker 1:And it's not and it's not just a, I guess, a quick fix. It's remote emotional responding is not emotional resolving, if that is that a good way to put it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because it's well, going back to what we said last episode is mental health is the radical unwavering commitment to reality at all cost. So for my wife and I, what we've been through on numerous fronts, it was not okay. Whether it was where she was at physiologically, whereas where I was at spiritually and emotionally, where we're at with the context of our church, it was not okay. But the choice that we had was to it wasn't gonna be resolved, but we could choose the piece and not pieces.
Speaker 2:It's like you take 2 or 3 of the piece pieces and put it back into peace, and and so you're a little bit more holding when you left. And that's what this idea of emotional responding does is that with the mentee, you're not gonna solve the issue of the fatherlessness in the 1st year of meeting. And but what you can do is help put Humpty Dumpty back together again, like his brain to where he's got just a little bit more peace. He's got a little bit more empathy. He's got a little bit more compassion that he's received so that he can sleep a little bit better.
Speaker 2:So his fear center isn't flipping out all of the time, which I guarantee you most of the time it is. So you ain't gonna fix it because you ain't Jesus, but what you can do is come together, put 1 or 2, and it starts to become this beautiful mosaic. You're playing that. You're partnering again with God, with others, and it's healing for yourself. You're gonna see in that moment.
Speaker 2:You'll see like, God's not screwing you up when he put these people with you. Like, there's gonna be something in this kid's story that hits your story. It's gonna make you have a need for emotional responding. Like, someone's gonna care for you. Like, he's either lord and your shepherd or he's not.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? And so he's gonna put you 2 together, not just for him, but for you. And in that moment, there's gonna be places where you're you're gonna start to see your own kids, or you're gonna see your own heart, or maybe you're gonna see your dad or your neighbor or their story. And then in that moment, you're starting to put this beautiful mosaic back together instead of pieces. There's a little bit more peace because like you said, Steven, it's just not gonna be resolved overnight.
Speaker 2:I mean, it takes, like you said, 25, 26, 27 years for a man's brain to fully form. They're just boys who can shave, you know, at 30 living in their mother's basement playing fortnight. Anyway, so, yes, it's it's gonna take time, but the goal is peace and not pieces, which I just love that phrase. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I also think what a mentor relationship establishes is that sense that we are made to care for others and be cared for by others. And, the analogy that's in my head
Speaker 2:is Go with it, baby.
Speaker 1:Let's run this metaphor. Homeownership. If you buy a house, you're taking on a lot of challenges and repairs that you don't expect when you're if you're renting a place versus owning a place. In home ownership, like, it's one thing if the windows aren't insulated very well and you needed to change that. It's another thing if the doorknob's broken.
Speaker 1:But even if you resolve one issue, there's always something else going around in the house that's off. I mean, just the other day, we recognized that there is a leak in one of the roofs or on the ceiling of our 3rd bedroom in our house that we never go into because we have one child, and he's in one room, and we're in another room. This 3rd bedroom, no one goes to unless, I mean, we have someone living with us. We don't right now.
Speaker 2:Praise the
Speaker 1:lord. But we needed eyes to see and recognize where the issue was so that we can address it. Mhmm. I think in in homeownership, there's always an issue to to be resolved, to be fixed, and you need eyes to see all of this space and to to be sensitive and aware so that we can respond to those issues and fix it. I just got my roof replaced 2 years ago.
Speaker 1:Why do I have a roof leak? Mhmm. Why do I why is my ceiling broken? Like but that's kind of a picture of life. Like, we we think we're gonna get to this place of resolution when really the things that we solved 2 years ago are still creating leaks in the ceiling, and it's necessary for us to to, like, partner together in relationship to recognize those things and maybe go to the rooms that you're not always, like, going into to recognize.
Speaker 1:So a mentor is kind of the person that is jumping into your life recognizing or being sensitive to, like what you said, the need behind the deed so that not so that we can reach resolution, but so that we can respond to it and work toward health. Mhmm. Is that is that a good
Speaker 2:Yeah. But you have a vision for health, which you talked about a little bit last time. And you cannot impart what you have not received. So even you can have a vision for your own I used to say vision or die, and then people get in the way and then they would die for my vision, and that's not the point anymore for me. It's vision gives life.
Speaker 2:And so part of what by the way, shout out Pete Scazzero, the gals at our church are doing emotionally healthy women, our woman, there's emotionally healthy church, emotionally healthy spirituality, but he says something similar to what, Coburn says my shrink about unless you're committed to reality, you're gonna be unhealthy. And so for Christians so long, our emotions we it's, you know, you have the fact, and then you have the thoughts and then the feeling is the caboose, but the feeling is really what are driving us whether we like it or not. And so I think in the context because you said last time, like, the idea of having yes. It's important to have a vision for that kiddo. And part of the reason why you need to have a vision for that kiddo is so that when it fails, God can work in your heart to address that room in your heart that hasn't you haven't let him into because you haven't needed him until that moment, where there's a leak now.
Speaker 2:There's a crack in the foundation, and this little 8 year old Hispanic boy has exposed it more than anybody else. But I think having that vision for what emotionally healthy life, you know, house well lived in and what that could be like in this kid because the goal is health. Yeah. I I mean, even more than we go back to, like, from the Christian standpoint, and I was earlier listening to some of forerunners vision casting. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:But when you think about your role in the context of a mentor's life mentee's life, can you save them? Can you heal them? No. That that's all Jesus's job. He's the great physician.
Speaker 2:He's the he's the, savior. And so part of it is like getting them to a place like being part of that mosaic, putting peace together just in little bits and pieces so there is health because healthy people tend to make healthy choices. Unhealthy people tend to do stupid things, which we all do. And so I think about, like, your role in that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like having a vision for what health looks like in the mentor mentee relationship, a vision that you can invite him or her into that they can participate in. And that's, like, that's another huge thing even on emotional responding is that when you've actually attuned and enter into their world, then it's like you're sitting side by side looking up and envisioning what your relationship could be like. And so I love what you did earlier, you're talking about your mentee and saying push ups or slam dunk or whatever, but instead of you dictating it, it's like you're inviting up just like God does with us, You know, fill the earth and subdue it. You shall be for me a kingdom of priests. The dwelling is pleased to dwell dwell, in us.
Speaker 2:The dwelling place said John 4 1 14 and then Ephesians. I'm forgetting it right now. But what you're doing when you're able to attune to them and then meet needs and see the need behind the deeds is you're able to bring them up into partnership so that they're creating it together. And you can't do that unless you're safe. Like, earlier, you were talking about you felt some shame for your, not entering into your friend's mom's world or whatever.
Speaker 2:I would say that's guilt, like you violated a value, a relational value. And when that stuff's happening, you're not gonna feel safe to actually express yourself to be creative and to thrive. And so in the context of, like, trying to raise up that kiddo to health and partner, the safer they are, the more that you've applied peace instead of pieces, the more freedom they're gonna have to self express and then like cocreate with you which is the whole theme of the bloody bible. Like we cocreate with God and so like yeah. Even in this I'm like fascinated by the idea of story.
Speaker 2:It's like man, what story are you telling yourself in the context of this relationship? I'm the savior. I'm the teacher. I'm the instructor. You're not the rabbi.
Speaker 2:You are the mentor. Yeah. There might be some skill set that you're doing but it's going man how do I enter into their world? How do I attune? Because what you're doing in essence is bringing up to to their destiny and giving them peace instead of pieces so that they can help create what it looks like to be healthy.
Speaker 2:And you mentor them in that hopefully by god's good grace and give them practicals and all their jazz. But, anyway, that's what's coming to mind off of that. Some of those thoughts you just gave.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You mentioned the example of you and your wife and people's inability to emotionally respond, like, healthily.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I think adults are more able to express their loss, disappointment, frustration, difficulty, and that that pieces part. Like, they can explain their pieces. Mhmm. And that helps whoever's responding to recognize, okay. What's my role in bringing these pieces back to peace?
Speaker 1:For kids, I don't necessarily have many situations where a kid has been able to explain the pieces. Yeah. It's just it's their experience, and the mentor is left to try and identify not only what the pieces are, but also how to put them together.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Man, a couple of things I would say, you gotta take the needs test, which you're gonna put on the document somewhere. You gotta watch some of the videos, listen to these things. You've gotta be able to distinguish and delineate between thoughts and feelings, and you gotta recognize the god given purpose for emotions, like, they're not bad. They actually give you energy to do something.
Speaker 2:Like, I I realized on Monday, I I it took me some time, but I needed to connect with humans. I needed to communicate and I I love my wife, love my kids, but I needed to get out of my head and talk with people that are like in the same space church wise. And I was able to do that and I realized that I was lonely and lonely gives you energy to connect. And so, like, if we think of, like, anger as bad and not giving you energy to express and protect and to use your voice, then we're kind of missing the point. And so I think there's some work that the mentor would have to do that would actually benefit them in every area of their life that would be helpful.
Speaker 2:Now you had asked me specifically, you know, going back to my wife and I and, you know, had the miscarriages and people are like, well, God's sovereign. And I think what that did was shut us down from relationship going they're not safe to express my heart because and I didn't even do it cognitively. It was like a gut level. I I know the person, and I should I should I'm feeling a little pain even in the moment going, but I know she loves us so much, but that really shut us down. So when you're with these kiddos that can't quite express what's going on, the more you have an idea and a worldview of we're built out of a trinitarian god of the bible who made us to partner, who gave us needs, that can only be met in the context of one another, articulate between your thoughts and feelings, then you can start to see the need behind the deed behind the kids.
Speaker 2:And what we do as parents or as mentors is they're you're they're hijacking our brain to self regulate. That's such a profound thought. And when I just see the actions of my boys, this is a metaphor, but I I would throw them all against the wall like a football. I'm like, oh my gosh. Why are you freaking out?
Speaker 2:So for example, my eldest fell out of the car and kinda bumped his knee and was, like, hyperventilating. I'm like, dude, there's not even a scratch, and I was getting lit. And he kept on saying, I I always hit my head, and so what he saw was that he lost control and was going to bust his head on the concrete, but luckily his shin stopped him. So it kinda like tripped him from tripping all the way. And so I was like, oh, you're scared.
Speaker 2:So his cortisol spikes, his fight or flight spikes, and so now I know what my assignment is. I'm not trying I'm, like, trying to give him facts, reason, and logic because I'm like, look, your chin is fine. Stop it. You know? That didn't work.
Speaker 2:But I was like, oh, hey. Are you and this is what I did. This is that join follow to lead that we talked about a couple episodes ago. And so I enter into his world. I'm like, hey.
Speaker 2:Was that scary? Were you fearful that you're gonna bust your head? And he was like, yeah. Just just sobbing. I said, I see that you're scared.
Speaker 2:Now part of what fear is is just really keep me alive, and so he thought he was gonna be dead or hurt himself, and now he's not in reality. And so this is where I join follow now to lead to start going, hey hey, bud. Are you in danger right now? Is there anything that can harm you right now? No.
Speaker 2:No. No. So he's grounded in reality. So I've I've attuned to him, and now I can use some facts, reason, and logic, and and what I'm doing is I'm keeping my eyes open. I'm being empathetic.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to put on my daddy voice and talk soft and calm him down because he's gonna use my brain to calm down because he can't regulate just yet. Mhmm. And so that's what you're in essence trying to do is you're trying to get the facts, get the lay of the land, understand what's going on, and then you join them, follow them, then to lead them into a place of putting the pieces into peace. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That was really helpful.
Speaker 2:And that's why that that's the benefit of the emotional responding versus you're an idiot. Your shin isn't even bleeding. That doesn't help. That's called, unproductive it's just unproductive responses. Facts, reason, logic, criticism, complaints, or neglect.
Speaker 1:And I think every mentor has has experienced an unproductive response, and you you can feel it after you do it. Would you would you say that's true?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Before you really think it, you can feel it, which is a trip. So, yes, that's a dangerous spot to be in. If you're just so unattuned, you can't see whether it is. But when you're saying, yeah, I tried this.
Speaker 2:I took a risk, and it didn't work. Then you're getting feedback to seeing how that's or is it creating piece or pieces? And so I think that's helpful and huge if you can pay attention to it, which is freaking hard in the moment Yeah. Especially in chaos. But, anyway
Speaker 1:I feel like it's good to acknowledge that every mentor is in process just as much as the mentee is in process. And we, as mentors, are learning to love.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so it's not just there are some mentors who are just really good at loving, and there are other mentors who are not really good at loving. We are all learning to love. That's it demands process. Mhmm. And I I remember when I was in college, I went to this I mean, it was a charismatic prayer night.
Speaker 1:There was a girl that I really liked. She's now my wife. She she was there on the front row, and I she invited me, and I was standing in the back just, like, observing her spiritual world. She was, I mean, all up in the charismatic movement. And, I mean, there's Indian techno worship music, flags going everywhere, somebody knocking people out in the front, and I'm just like I'm just taking it all in in the back.
Speaker 1:And some guy walks up to me
Speaker 2:center is going, am I safe? What's going on?
Speaker 1:It was not my because I didn't grow up in the church, but the one church I did go to I mean, if the if the music got over a 180 beats per minute, the I mean, you could tell everyone was a little concerned about what was going on and had to cool it down. This guy walks up to me, and he says, hey. Can I pray for you? And at this point in my spiritual journey, I'd never had someone actually ask to pray for me. And so I was like, sure.
Speaker 1:He said bold. He said, good. Because I feel like you have a spirit of discouragement. I've been watching you, and it it just seems like you really need prayer. Now that moment stuck with me for probably 7 years because of how
Speaker 2:Negative or positive way?
Speaker 1:Negative. Because, I mean, after he said that, I was like, well, I feel like you have the spirit of discouragement because you just you just gave it to me. Yeah. And and in that moment, I mean, something that I had to to grow in and recognize was that in that moment, that guy wanted to love me, but he didn't know how. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And that created in me a wound where I was afraid anytime someone asked to pray for me because I assumed that when someone asked me that, they were recognizing something off within me. Yeah. And and so I guess in a mentor relationship, I I think there's a greater measure of risk when we view the relationship in this, I'm solving you. I'm fixing you. I'm gonna recognize all of the areas that you're weak or that you need help because then that creates in this foundational relationship Mhmm.
Speaker 1:For a kid from a hard place who may not have very many adults or father figures or mother figures in their life to then establish what that relationship is is I'm here to fix you. I'm here to call you out and be overly aware of everything that need that's off. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yes. It's exhausting for both parties. But what you're saying based off the prayer example and then how it sounds like the difference between emotional attunement responding versus facts, reason, logic, or even spiritual response. It's it's almost as if you're saying you can enter into it on the wrong foot and inhibit growth and even the idea of partnership. Like, I'm here to save versus I'm here to serve or I'm here to guide versus I'm here to rabbi you and teach you all the things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that's I think that's our cultural understanding of what a mentor is. Yeah. Is that we know everything and we're going to help you with all your issues. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But that's not the mentoring that we're trying to go for. Mhmm. Which and why not? Because I I think there's dangers in establishing this, I mean, this hierarchy of I am the wise one. You're the one that needs wisdom.
Speaker 1:I'm the one that's walked through life with all of these challenges. You're the one that knows nothing. And I think the mentor we're trying to establish is the mentor is speaking power, speaking life, speaking affirmations, speaking acceptance into all the places in the mentee's life that are not because the the mentee has earned it or deserved it and are not because it's it's not a a trying to establish our our own sense of accomplishment. Mhmm. I I think there's a power dynamic that the kingdom breaks.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Like, Jesus doesn't come just to teach us everything about life. He comes to love and to serve in in humility that, yes, acknowledges that there's pain, brokenness, sin, and pieces, but, also, he acknowledges what we're made for and and calls us into that, not in a way that's, like, kinda what you said. It's not just about leadership. It's about joining, following to lead.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. We could talk about hierarchies and other stuff because I would like to understand because there should be an element of the kingdom does flip something, but there is an element of the join, follow to leave through servant. But what I hear you saying is the the core is that relational thing, which goes back to what I think this is all about, the kind of wired for relationships is, like, our identity is shaped in the context of relationships. And, you know, when you're going back to your friend's mother with cancer, it can stay on a surface level or it can that risk could have been taken or that, you know, we could have entered into a moment together which is gonna be messy and gross and in those places of engagement without the fact, without the region reason and logic or complaints or well, yes, Steven, you think you had a bad look at what my life was like because it just degrades that person but instead joining, following the lead, attuning, and then in that place, then you've earned the right to say this is who you are.
Speaker 2:It's just the relational capital, not that you don't say it at the beginning. Hey, man. I'm seeing a lot of wisdom in you. Do you know what that means? You know, or I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing a lot of influence in you. A lot of the kids seem to follow you. Do you have you ever thought of yourself as a leader? And that the more and more you have time with it, the more and more you join, follow lead, and attune, the more and more they'll actually believe it because you're not just this guy that comes in and out by the night and just speaks this thing and leaves. And so I I love that idea of the relational dynamic where I think there is a measure of hierarchy, but then Jesus flips it to join, follow, leave, to serve, to raise up, and it's all done through the heart, which is harder than going through the mind in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:But, anyway, I I mean, I'm in a 100% agreement on the just the tag phrase, relationships change life lives. But if it's in the factories and in logic or emotional disattunement, you're not gonna actually bring the change that you're wanting to the depth and the breadth of it, the piece that you wanna bring unless it is mutual, unless it is you leaving your world, unless it is actually getting a picture for who they are, and that just, by all, takes time and a lot of mistakes. So I like I like I like those thoughts actually deeply. So yeah.
Speaker 1:Are there any other unproductive responses to emotional needs and hurts that we haven't discussed yet? I mean,
Speaker 2:there's a a lot, but some of them are facts, reasons, and logic, criticism, complaints about myself, neglect, just ignoring it. But I think one of the I wanna I wanna give you kind of 2 things to end with, maybe 3, but some of the phrases that you can use that help draw it out, we've talked about this a little bit is like, hey, tell me more about that or hey, you're acting like this, does that mean you're angry? I see that you're angry, that's a join follow to lead or Steven, I see that you're moving your finger. Are you feeling some anxiety? I see that you're feeling anxiety.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever. Like my tail signs are always you can kind of tell when I'm anxious because I'll start doing this little number with my forefinger and thumb. And so say, hey, John. You're doing that thing. Are you anxious?
Speaker 2:I see that you're anxious. And so it's like you're starting to kind of attune with their brain.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna hide my hands from you for the rest of this.
Speaker 2:I I, you know, I see that you're I don't like that. That actually makes me feel a measure of sadness. And then using emotional words to respond to an emotional word. And then there's some relational words that are facts, reason, and logic that help. Again, this is what was so true of my wife and I because long story short, her father left and so always worried that a man would leave.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of the first from engagement till 2 years was her issues. My issues have been the last 10 years. So so I trumped it. But a lot of fear would come up and I'd be so pissed. I'm like, what are you what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:And then I'd start to see the need behind the deed. And as we would close out these interactions, I would say things like, hey. I'm never leaving. I'm never gonna leave you. No matter what you do, There's no way I'm leaving.
Speaker 2:Divorce is not an option. You know, we aren't even talking about that stuff. That's just there's some relational commitments that you're making that are really, really good to help just ease and bring peace to the relationship. So those are some actual positive responses and even the vulnerability as is appropriate, like and then the example you gave in, like, episode 1 about where you're basically called a racist. And it's not about apologizing where you're not wrong, but confessing, agreeing with the truth.
Speaker 2:Man, I see that you've had I acknowledge that you've had some racist things in your life, or I can see how that's happened. That's really tough. I don't understand it all the way. You know? I wanna understand it more, and I think there's some places where you as the mentor can be vulnerable that will actually help bridge that gap, and it's confession.
Speaker 2:It's like, hey, man. I didn't respond that well. I got really you saw me get really angry. How'd that make you feel? Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I was wrong because for the most part, you're probably not sorry. You're just wrong on some of those things. So I think that'd be helpful to articulate along the way that kinda helped that move from unproductive responses.
Speaker 1:Whereas an unproductive response would just be dismissive.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Would drop whether it's fact reason logic or criticism, it's gonna cut the relationship off. It's like that conflict and chaos is bringing the chance for attachment. It's it's it's the Weezer song. Here's the pitch, slow and straight.
Speaker 2:All I have to do is swing, and I'm a hero. And then you just they're softballing it up to you. Yeah. Will you be there? Will you accept me?
Speaker 2:And you're going, well, you don't even have it. You you don't even have it half as bad as the kids in India. At least you have an apartment even though it's like government housing and you have no debt. I mean, like Mhmm. None of that helps.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I I'm reading Beverly Tatum's, Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria.
Speaker 2:Wow. That is a uncomfortable title.
Speaker 1:A very long title. In Other Conversations About Race, that's the subtitle. But one of the things she mentioned, particularly in this vein, is that kids are living in a, I mean, a racial like society. And a lot of times, you'll hear when kids have a question about race, parents usually just shut the conversation down. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So if a kid mentions, like, why is that lady over there that color? Parents are more likely to say, shh, don't say that. And that dismissiveness of actually just addressing naturally, like, oh, she has more melanin in her in her skin. Like and I understand kids might not understand that, but that's more constructive than just saying, shh, we're not gonna talk about it. And now we live in a society where everyone's afraid to talk about race because we've been dismissive of actually the bid that the kid's given us.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:The law That's so good.
Speaker 1:To answer the question. And yeah. I mean, that's And
Speaker 2:that's where I encourage the mentors. You're gonna blow it, so you have to speak even if it makes you look like a fool because I can't tell you how many times in the context of being a pastor where I've wounded someone and God used it to heal someone because I actually repent. I think I told you this story somewhere along the lines, but, my sister's best friend went to a wedding together with her, my wife, my sister, and her best friend. The AC went out. I was pissed, and I lost it.
Speaker 2:The next day we're at church, it was at Antioch over at, Pearl Street. Right? Brian Street. And I went over to her and I said, hey. Look.
Speaker 2:Yesterday, I responded a lot of anger and that was wrong. And I imagine that made you feel say unsafe and scared, and she sobbed. And I was like, oh my gosh. I'm a terrible person. What happened was it was her father.
Speaker 2:That's what her dad did without repairing. Mhmm. And so the key in this is you repair. And so when you speak, you get softballed something and you blow it, but then you come back and acknowledge it. That's the confession part that repairs the relationship.
Speaker 2:That's what's lacking everywhere is a lack of repair and the way you do that is with emotional attunement, not with facts, reason and logic, not with well, it's because my daddy didn't love me either. You know, that just none of that helps but hey, yesterday, I was angry. I lost my ish. That is not the father heart of God. I am wrong.
Speaker 2:Will you forgive me? Mhmm. You know, and then I was like, what's going on? And then I just was hitting on a nerve and and you're gonna speak and blow it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:But if we, at least in that humility, make a chance to repair, at least give it the opportunity, there's gonna be more peace than pieces at the end of it, which is so comforting. Yeah. I have this thought to kind of I think as an encouragement that I would use to close, for the mentors.
Speaker 1:Bring it on.
Speaker 2:And it's this fast so it's in first Corinthians. Right? So it's the love chapter. Right? Sandwiched between the gifts of the holy spirit and how to operate in the body and he talks about what love is.
Speaker 2:And he says this one verse that I'm probably gonna take out of context but I don't care. I think it's really applicable for mentors, for you and I, for our wives, everything. He says, this is first Corinthians 13 12. He says, for now we see only a reflection as a mirror, meaning, like, we're seeing God just very dimly. Then when Jesus comes back and heaven earth is united, we shall see face to face.
Speaker 2:Now I know in part, like, some seeing I just get bits bits and pieces of what Jesus is like, his character, then I shall know fully even as I'm fully known.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And there at the end, I think what Jesus through Paul is saying is that we're already fully known, but that idea of that fullness of partnership and intimacy is gonna take an infinity and beyond to know. Mhmm. To like to know his character for us to know what he was doing, what we were like, what we failed at, what he restored. And if it's that case with us and the father, son, and holy spirit, and I think in the context of every race, tribe, and charm, it's gonna take an eternity to see how big the picture was. How much more difficult is it now gonna be for us to enter into our mentees world in such a way that we're going to know even as we're fully known?
Speaker 2:Like, the knowing there is not just that we know our mentee, but there's that mutual knowing. And so my encouragement would be just be steadfast in the process of being with them because you're gonna blow it, but you can mentor. You're made for it. You're literally designed for it. It's incredible.
Speaker 2:And so that'd be my encouragement. Stay steadfast. Give yourself grace because it's tough, and it's gonna cause your junk to come out. But if you can relationally commit and work on this stuff, you will see transformation in your life and in theirs, and it'll be awesome.
Speaker 1:Hey. Thanks for listening to the entire relational needs series. Obviously, there's more to unpack. John has actually put together a resource, a video series, that talks about relational needs. I highly encourage you to check out that resource on his website.
Speaker 1:John, what is your website? Jspauer.com. Jspauer.com. Mhmm. We'll leave that in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Reach out to John. We'll leave his contact information in there as well. If he's willing to contact you, he'll we'll leave that to him.
Speaker 2:I'll pray about it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Subscribe to the podcast. What are you doing if you haven't clicked that button yet? And we'd love, we'd love to hear your feedback. Let us know what you learned from this series on our social media.
Speaker 1:And if you picked up one thing from the relational needs series, let it be what John has said. You can mentor.