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welcome to founder LED every episode
I talk to operators building real companies
to learn what's actually driving their growth
I'm Rohan founder at Frontier Content Studio
where we help business leaders
become the obvious choice in their market
through LinkedIn now let's get into it
welcome to founder LED
where we sit down with some of the sharpest minds
in the staffing and recruiting space
today's guest is Khang Nguyen
VP of sales and operations at Mindlance
a 500 million dollar global workforce solutions firm
with over 25 years of it
staffing and consulting experience
Kang has LED teams through growth and inflection points
and is now helping Mindlands expand
beyond traditional MSP staffing into more direct
client centric solutions
Kang's focused on a core shift
moving from filling roles
to solving real business problems
combining AI enabled scale
with a human element that actually builds trust
so if you care about workplace strategy
cost optimization
and how staffing is evolving in an AI driven world
this conversation is for you
let's get into it Kang
welcome to the show well
thank you very much
appreciate the opportunity to be here with you
very excited great
well Kang
you know
I was really excited when we had our initial chat
around you know
the scope of your responsibility
given the scale of mindlance
as well as this kind of key inflection point
that the company is going through
so I'd love
if you can start off with sharing
a bit about your mandate and scope
as the VP of Sales Operations at Mindlands
and what are some of the most important things
that are on your mind these days
yeah no um
thank you again so the story for us here is
you know as you said here
we for
as an organization
we've been in the business for 27 years now
we are a workforce solutions and services provider
the the
the history of the organization has grown
through volume right
and when you look at how the market has evolved
volume is no longer uh
as valuable as what it used to be
so today's world how do I find value
and that's really about the human element
and the trust that we initially talked about
so my task is to lead our efforts here
starting in I sit in Northern California
to grow our western market here and and
and be more entrenched and involved with our clients
above and beyond just a wreck
coming out and providing resumes right
so um
the job that I have
the task that I have with the team that I have
is to really number one
expand the brand No. 2 and
and quite honestly
a 1B to that is really protect the brand
we are stewards of the brand
when we're going out to our clients
and being able to share our breadth of services
but our job is to go out there and preach
the gospel of what it is that we do
and how it creates value for the client
and not just a resume machine like
you know every other uh
you know staffing organization that's out there
so that is our task and that is our mandate today
okay yeah
I know one of the the key initiatives you
you talked about is you know
shifting from this purely kind of like
MSP driven model to now a more direct
higher relationship
what are some of the strategic reasons behind that
and how are you thinking to approach that
and yeah talk about how that aligns with this long term
view of being more client centric and
and value at those core relationships
yeah I think
when you look at the evolution of the industry itself
and like you said I've been doing this for
you know 26
going on 26 years now 27 years
but um
the the staffing industry has
really grown from really a volume economy right
so it was basically how quickly can I respond
and how much can I respond
to the demands at that particular time
success in the past has always been um
measured around speed submittals
fill rates things of that nature um
MSP's have really changed the game for us and
and that started 20 years ago
quite honestly when I was starting in the industry
we were told to avoid it like the plague
and now it's such an integral part of of our system
our today and so for us
because the buyers today are much more savvy
and their business problems are much more complicated
I simply can't solve that problem
I can't be of value by simply being super fast
submitting a ton of resumes right
that's no longer a value so I think as an organization
we're very very fortunate to have our CEO
Vic Kharouk
really have the vision several years ago to say okay
for me to continue to provide value in the marketplace
and separate myself
I can't simply be and do everything
else that everyone else is doing
so being able to identify the fact that hey
there's a gap in my ability to create value long term
uh
Vic did a great job in being the visionary that he is
to say okay
I'm gonna start acquiring companies
or creating certain things within the organization
things such as an AI tool that's proprietary
that's built in house within our CRM and ATS system
and that's something that most
staffing companies don't do
I buy something off the shelf and that's what I use
whereas Vic has decided to say no
I'm gonna build it myself
based upon the needs and demands that my clients have
then that gets me to be able to provide value quicker
and so we are looking at an evolution
a transformation of an
of an organization that's going from just simply rec
fulfillment right
and that's how we got to the $500 million right
and how do we solve problems and business problems
how do I go from a you know
a transaction delivery engine
to a consultative engagement with our clients
how do I go from simply supplying headcount
to actually providing you know
providing economic impact to our clients
and and those are the areas
that we really want to focus on
with this effort for direct business
and so MSP business is is fantastic
it rewards
those that are responsive and how quickly they respond
but I think direct business for us
meaningful direct business it
it really rewards relevance and value
and that's what we're trying to strive for
in this kind of transformation
from volume to value of yeah
yeah I I love that um
were there any again you you talked about how
you know the current
kind of like MSP driven model has been great to
you know given the evolution of
the industry and how it's serving um
y'all well right now
were there any sort of like early signals
or perhaps like canaries in the coal mine
where you felt okay
we know that maybe the customer relationship
has an opportunity to improve
or any early
signals that you knew that you needed to evolve
the model I think a lot of our listeners
and also recruiting leaders are thinking okay
you know they might run a smaller shop
so be nice to have a much larger scale organization
to understand
what are some of those patterns that came up
that were really indicators
that you needed to start evolving things
I I think the biggest thing that I can say is is
you know we
we are taught in our business
is to listen and understand the
the the client's problems often times in our business
especially on the sales side when we listen
we're waiting to sell right
because I have a certain type of service I provide
and so if I'm talking to you
I'm just waiting waiting for those cues to say oh
well I can do that or I can do that right
and we're not necessarily listening
and truly understanding problems right
and I think that's a part of the ability to find value
and so I think when you look at and
and resting on your laurels is a big no
no in our industry and I tell people all the time
especially our sales folks in our industry
there's no it to get to there's no there to get to
everything that you place
walks out the door at some point right
so you have to find this
this motor within to continue to be of value
and find value so I think at some point
if you start to just listen in to what you can do
you're gonna miss out on the things that you could do
and I think Vic has been very
very good throughout his professional career
to be able to look at and say okay
how do I solve this problem long term
versus how do I try to get a buck today
and so when you listen to the client's problems
it it's evolving right
yeah and in the way that they demand
I used to have a running joke as a salesperson
if you could spell job I'd get you a job well
today that's not the case
one single job today requires
the skill set of four or five different positions right
and so right your buyers are much more savvy
their needs are much more complicated
and I think if you can take a step back
and understand the complexities
of what they have to deal with on a daily basis
the simple things that you can provide as an
a staffing company
no longer has the same value that it did 10 years ago
right so I think when you start
to miss out because you hear that Accenture
got the opportunity cognizant Wipro
whatever it may be you start to hear that and it
the initial reaction is like oh
well that's not what we do
and so you can easily fall back into what you did
and keep doing that or you can look at that and say
okay
that's where it's going so what can I do to adjust
how do I increase my value
how do I continue to evolve
because in business
I don't care what you do if you don't evolve
you become stale and if you become stale
your business dies at some point yeah
I think it's it's really pressing to think that way
which is while there are
these are difficult problems to solve right
how do we think um
really much more cross functionally and
and solve some of those harder problems
for our clients these are the things that are gonna
become increasingly important
and then it's thinking about okay
where does the value lie
in terms of the business transformation
that you're delivering and if you're finding that
just playing the volume game is becoming
increasingly commoditized
especially in a world of of AI and deep research
and keyword analysis and optimization
to just surface a resume
what skills are actually scarce and valuable
and how do you apply technology to again
create more value
and capture more of that value for your clients
and it sounds like that's
the direction that you're building in
in terms of those technology solutions
and then also the
the solutions that you're building for clients
so would love if you could kind of dig into it
and maybe frame it
with an example of a real client transformation to
to make things kind of real here for our audience
so is there I think you mentioned
there's kind of a client in the financial um
industry institution that you've kind of like
helped with this transformation
so maybe talk a bit about that story
yeah no
that's a great I
I try to tell that story as much as I can
because it really is an indicator to us
and what the world is today right
because I truly solving problems and again
unfortunately for us we've got the breadth of service
just to offer a variety of different things and tailor
customize solutions for our clients
and that's what we're proud of here as an organization
but the example I had shared with you was
I can't share names obviously
but we have an a financial client that you know
obviously has a need and in a demand to
to fulfill a project in a timely manner
all those different things
and so just like everything else today
the dollar has to be stretched and and
and and cost optimization
as we talked about is a big buzzword today
and so how do I maximize a dollar for our client
that that's that's a part of what I take on
I don't simply go to the client say what's your budget
and I'm gonna try to spend as much of it as I can
I wanna stretch that out
because if I can help a client do that
we call it the stickiness right
so I can become sticky with them
moving forward
to help them solve other business problems
and so how it came about was they had a need
we approached them
obviously through relationship several years ago
and that's
continued to build and maintain over the years
and so they had talked about this need
this project coming up
and the challenges of this project
and finding these subject matter experts
that cost a pretty penny bringing on a hired gun
especially these days is not cheap
I don't care what the skill set is
and so we talked about
how do I maximize and extend that dollar
because in today's world
simply hiring a hired gun is fantastic
but there's a lot of risks involved in that right
it's very costly number one right
you you take the risk of uh
losing intellectual capital
when it's all said and done
and for this particular skill set yeah
you lose it and so what we did was we
we have a training company called Quintrix
and so within that training uh
spectrum that we offer
we call we have what's called recruit
train and deploy and so what
we ended up doing was
instead of hiring one or two subject matter experts
senior level folks we decided to say
this is what we're gonna do
we're gonna hire teams of individuals
we're gonna train them for you for free okay
and then we're gonna deploy them for you
tell manage them for you and at some point
if you want to be able to take over that
we will hand back those 10
16 individuals back to you
so now
instead of just simply providing access to talent
we are creating talent for our clients
and that's much a long term solution
than just trying to find an individual for
you know whatever
$150 an hour and then in six months you lose them
cause you run out of budget
in this particular scenario
I can do this on shore near shore offshore
create a lot of flexibility within the workforce
and lower the risk for the client long term
and so that was not the initial conversation
that was not the initial engagement
the initial engagement was simply
you know staffing
I need three people and this is what I'm looking for
yeah now
they've got access to 16 people that they can retain
for a lot longer
yeah I love that you've um
you've created uh predictability
you've provided you know training
you've provided a workflow
I'm reminded of
a lot of the most innovative companies right now
especially like pure play AI companies
whether they're you know LLM driven
whether you know
a cursor or an open AI
or some of these other more application layer
they are hiring these forward deployed engineers right
that's what they're calling them
where it really is a human
who is able to understand the
the technical requirements
and some of the transformation
and the workflow that needs to be
optimized and augmented through AI
but also be able to speak at an enterprise level
and understand the business transformation
and the most important problems to be solved
and like the right sequencing
and how to set that up for the model and
and while there's a lot of power in the technology
there is all with that
comes a lot of customization from the data model
and just making sure things are secure
and enterprise grade and all these sort of things
and so as you were talking around this recruit train
deploy keyword being you know
some being deployed to implement this
I'm reminded of these forward deployed engineers
to help with that some of that transformation
to deliver almost that time to value
right as as quickly as possible
I think that's important for our buyers today is
is you know
when you're looking at value
people are looking for economic impact
right it's not just a person and
and and
and a seat that needs to be filled
I think the
what they're looking for out of that dollar that
that is being spent today
is
is significantly more complex than what it used to be
like I said all firms
all staffing organizations provide access to talent
but I I think for us
the separation is that
I'm helping clients create talent
I'm helping create uh
clients engineer capability
I'm helping them
design and redesign a work for a workforce
and I think
that's something that is going to need to evolve
and cause that's what our clients are doing today
our clients are always talking today about
different options near shore
on shore offshore
a variety of different skill sets
you know seniority
so I think
having that understanding of
how do I customize and tailor and uh
because every client's different
I don't care whether they're right
trillion dollar organization or
or a startup every
every company with is is different every industry
right so yeah
so talk about how you recognize
yeah I
I think this is a really important point because
you know
when we're thinking about staffing and recruiting
and now
the modern evolution of what that's gonna look like
once we layer in you know
technology and AI
what do you think that combination is gonna look like
right where the winners are not gonna be again
the old guard anymore
it's right for destruction where it's purely
you know relationship driven and that's what it is um
but it's also not gonna be purely all automation right
it's you know
people are able to combine the AI
tooling with this real human judgment
and what humans do well
so when you think of the evolution of
of mindlands what do you
where do you see
where do you see yourself sitting in that intersection
talk a bit about that
that's a great question I
like I said Vic was our CEO has been fantastic
and in seeing that for a long time ago
and helping us create that
that infrastructure within the organization today
so we're very blessed to have that as our visionary
you know we talk about old guard and new
old guard was like I'm an old guard right
and then you think about you know
I was taught people buy from people they like
that is still very true that's still very true
right and sometimes I remember the the
the when
when monster and Career Builder came on
on the scene I'm like well
there goes my job cause then if right
why would a client need me
if they have access to all those resumes
and again access was a big thing back then
I think I you have to adopt technology
the evolution of technology
especially in the space that we operate
and I believe in my core
that technology helps us as an industry as
as a
especially as an industry
but it helps us scale
but the judgment piece of it still remains human right
mm hmm what AI and technology does
especially AI
they're very good with pattern recognition
and speed and and data synthesis
and automation and market intelligence
all things that I need to do to do
I need to do well in order to do my job properly
and I think AI and technology allows me that quicker
faster but I have to be able to use that
in order to do what's really important to me
which is the human element
which is the nuance the risk assessment
I can get data to help me with risk assessment
but still
the risk assessment still falls on the human today
right yeah
cultural assessments
understanding stakeholder psychology
being able to negotiate
those are all human elements of the job
that will not go away anytime soon
and so the combination of the two
the adoption and integration
by the way
we don't just adopt a technology we don't just adopt AI
it's how do you integrate that into the daily
operating rhythm of your job
whatever that may be
and I think that's where we try to tell our folks
when you're going out there
you have to be informed
all the tools that are available to you
helps enhance
your ability to do the human element of the job
which is the nuance the building of relationships right
because people
people still buy from people yep
that's not gonna go away anytime soon
clients don't trust algorithms
right they trust accountable people
who are able to use intelligent systems
so if you don't use you don't
allow yourself to learn or adopt and integrate that
and that's where you're gonna fall behind
and it makes it very tough to compete in today's world
that's a really good point
you know
it's very easy to get caught up in the doom and gloom
of of AI if you're a specialist on LinkedIn or X
you know
every time there's an update by Open AI or Gemini
it's like oh
like it the entire industry is is has lost their jobs
right or
you know Claude Bot is gonna
take away an entire sector of the industry
but I think that's you're right
that's pretty misaligned
like especially businesses and enterprises
they don't want to just take a default
uh solution and you know
plug it into their system one
they don't know how 2
there's so many other implications
around maintaining it
managing it delivering the business transformation
so I think you're right
and we've always had these technological
shifts and improvements whether it was at monster.com
or more traditional ATS solutions
now AI enabled tools
but what hasn't changed has always been
a human element to that to help
humans have always been at the center of
of all this as you know
as we should be so
I think that's a really healthy and kind of like
rationally optimistic way of seeing things
so appreciate that perspective
yeah well
thank you I
I think you look at the same thing with the
advent of the internet
right you think about the staffing industry and what
cause staffing industry existed well
before the internet
we we don't remember that necessarily
but it did yeah
and so when you think about the internet so well
there goes the industry cause then everyone has access
well that's not true and in fact
the the the the
the the global
I just looked this up
and we were talking about something else
but the global cap for staffing and consulting in
the world right now is $650 billion
in 2025
and 24 is $520 billion continues to grow during these
quote unquote
tough times that we're seeing
and when you look at the top three
I'm not gonna mention who they are
but the top three staffing vendors in the world
they account for $62.6 billion
that's only 12% of the market cap yeah
the top five is $95 billion
which is only 18% right right
so it is a very much a growing
growing sector and growing market
and it's growing
because the demands and the needs are there right
how we supply
that is what's gonna differentiate yourself
it's a it's the wild wild west still
mm hmm right so yeah
that's the exciting part it's how do you do that
we talked about the science and the art of the job
from a sales perspective
the science is what I gotta make my calls
I gotta send my emails I gotta use LinkedIn
those are the sciences of it well
how you do that today is what separates yourself
and the tools that are available to you
if you adopt and integrate
then that makes you better than the rest
yeah I think there's an entire follow up conversation
we can have around how
how yeah
it's almost like a great reset that is happening
right that AI is enabling where
you know say these some of these smaller companies
they can now punch above their weight
by just being fast learners and adopters of technology
and now continue to kind of like
punch up stream or up market
that's right by solving some of these
these problems so
we'd love to kind of
jump into some rapid fire questions
and then we can wrap it up on where people
you know can find you if they want to engage
so what would you say is the most overrated thing in
in staffing these days I
I think it's the Assumption that just it me
I and and
and everywhere I've ever gone
it's it's you know
when you say what's your differentiator
it's like me
well that means absolutely nothing today
right until you show something right
and I think that
that's probably the most overrated thing
is to be able to walk into a client
look him square in the eyes and say
I'm the differentiator now
then that you have
then have to turn that back and look at the mirror
and say what does that mean right
if you're not doing all the things that you need to do
using all the tools that are available to you
I say this all the time I have a tool chest at home
but it means absolutely nothing
if I only use a hammer and a screwdriver
mm hmm
yeah right
that's what you gotta explain how
you gotta have the how and have some real specific
differentiated value is what you're exactly
there has to be something tangible and meaningful
I tell our folks all the time
you have to do your job with purpose and intent
and with thought
right and you have to prepare yourself as such
cause when you're going out there
you're truly in a position to help solve
complex business problems
for our clients
I'm no longer simply just sending you a resume
there's a huge difference
companies are still doing that today
and god bless them that's fantastic
but I think if you're going to look to
continue to compete forget thrive
if you're looking to compete
you've got to be able to do things with purpose
and intent and with thought
because the complex
problems are getting more and more complex right
yeah yeah
and there's just that
that energy that's felt where someone
you come in and someone on the other side
they just feel that intention
that you want to help them solve their problems
instead of sell the solution right
that's that's
that's a felt experience and so
I very much feel that there's like
this intermission that you have
where you really have this alignment there
to solve these business problems alright
next question um
first 30 days with a new enterprise client
what matters most the evaluation the assessment
I I think you know as a service
you know we're so quick to come in and was like
I can do this I can do that and and
and I think sometimes the
this the time that that we call
you know time to market is is rated too high
I think that's important but really
when you're working with an enterprise client
especially it's really taking the time to understand
understand what's going on
what the current situation
what the priorities
what the challenges are what the gaps are
I think it's really truly taking that time
I think clients appreciate that now
because
instead of going in and trying to sell you something
I've got a product off the shelf
I'm gonna try to sell it to you um
it provides no value to anybody
I think truly trying to sit there and understand uh
deep conversation I think
is extremely important to really be a value long term
right if you're going in to try to make a quick buck
knock yourself out
but if you're looking to have an impact
and provide value for an enterprise client
you have to take the time
to have in depth conversation
meaningful conversation to understand pains
needs and challenges hmm
I like that alright
last question here actually
let's do two more
what's one habit that separates top sales performers
and yeah I know you talked a lot about just like
that assessment and like deep listening
is there anything else that comes to mind preparation
mm hmm we as salespeople
typically we're good with shooting from the hips or
I got it no
it's not that anymore
you don't get away with it anymore
you have to do the preparation
you have to time manage you have to time block prepare
do your do your due diligence
all those different things
you can't just go in and get away with being the nice
fun guy anymore it's
it's you know
clients are looking to solve serious problems and
and you have to come in prepared
yeah okay
yeah I like that preparation is key
uh last one
what is one tool or piece of software
today that you cannot see yourself living without
uh one tool
that's a great question
because there's so many out there
I don't know if I can answer that one tool
I don't know that I can answer
I I yeah
I I use Gemini
and this could be in your personal life
or your professional life
so maybe it's your chat GPT or yeah
anything else I use Gemini and chat quite a bit
mm hmm um
and it's education I talk about being prepared
I wanna be able to go in
prepared with right information
to have some meaningful conversation
so I use those two religiously
I don't know that I use one more than the other
I think Gemini to me at least I could be wrong
but I think to me
Gemini is great with data information
and then chat is great in regards to the creative side
being able to take data and then how do I
you know uh
frame it in different ways
and how do I prepare myself in different ways
I think that's that's how I use it
but I use those two religiously on a daily basis
yeah it's interesting to see how um
the different LLMs have almost like a
a functional expertise right
yeah to your point
I think most of my chat history is in chat GPT
and so they're just like the quick
kind of everyday workhorse to answer my questions
have a lot of that personal context
I find Claude is great for work product
and so artifacts of whether it's
you know documents or pdfs or
you know voice and tone guides
and a lot of foundational docs that I
do deep research on
perplexity and Gemini I find are great for research
oh yes
yes that yeah right
um a great use case I have is like
ingesting YouTube videos or podcasts
and then they will transcribe them and provide like
key summaries which sometimes saves listening to like
an hour and a half podcast
so it's interesting to see how these
you know people kind of pick and choose what they use
the different LMS for
right okay great
well Kang
you know as we wrap it up here
um are
is there any key message
that you want to share with our audience
and then I also would love if you can share
you know
where can people find you or better connect with uh
mine Lance if they
if they want to like
go deeper on learning about more of your solutions
yeah I
I think my my kind of sentiments
in regards to the industry is that
you know it's often we think about ourselves
or the companies that we work for
and when you think about the industry
what I do impacts someone else at another company
because it's the reputation of the industry that
that really uh
affects all of us long term
so I think from from an industry perspective
we can all help elevate each other by presenting well
and being stores of your own brand
not just the company that you work for
yeah when you're out there
because what you represent
represents the industry to some varying degree
right
because we all get clustered into the staffing world
that's who we are that's
that's where we belong so then if we're
that's kind of the level of service
it's always the lowest of common denominators
that people will remember
right we don't remember this
they remember this so if we can raise that bar
I think it helps all of us
the top three staffing companies globally own 12%
which means there's plenty of opportunities out there
so if all of us take that to heart
it really raises the industry
and raises our profession
which benefits all parties involved right
I think last year the year before
there's something like close to 20 or 27,000
staffing vendors in the US
that is a lot wow yeah
when you think about 20,000 staffing vendors
and that's and again
the numbers I gave you for for for global
so that there's plenty to go around
let's let's all help each other elevate that
because the reputation sometimes is a hindrance
and when you look at that it hurts our clients
which then ultimately hurts our business long term
so that's my messaging to kind of our industry
is that let's all move up together
cause there's plenty to go around um
in regards to our organization obviously
you know
mindlance is the contingent arm of our of our company
we have a company called ML three sixty
which provides services um
as an organization we are like I said
a workforce solutions and services provider
we're located in seven different countries
we have a delivery engine of over 800 worldwide
we're technology agnostic
we service every industry except for light industrial
so whether it be training like Quintrix
that example I gave you earlier with RTD
then you have mind last that does a contingent
everything from an individual contributor
teams and pods that we help co manage for you
SW projects and the ML three sixty
our services we do everything
from taking a project off of your hands
delivering a single deliverable
and a single pricing point
all the way to taking off
a business function off of your plate
and being able to um
manage that for you
multi year contract performances managed by Slas
all those good stuff but all of that is
is the breadth of services that Mindland's
MO THREE SIXTY and Quintrix is able to provide today
OK beautiful
yeah we'll
we'll make sure to link all of those sites
and sub sites in in the show notes
and also link to to your LinkedIn
for people who want to connect more directly
and I just want to thank you again
Kang for joining the show
and being so generous with your insights
thank you
awesome thank you very much for the opportunity
I really do appreciate it