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The Thing We Never Talk About is an educational podcast about personal finance for creatives and other weirdos. We'll discuss managing cash flow with a lumpy income, when to save & when to invest, and how to reduce stress & build confidence when it comes to your money. No hot stock tips, no complicated strategies, and no finance bro jargon. We'll hear from artists, musicians, creative professionals, and other weirdos about how they navigate these questions for themselves. The Thing We Never Talk About is hosted by Timothy Iseler, CFP®, a former recording & touring audio engineer with 18 years experience in the music industry.
Timothy Iseler: So Angela, I
end every conversation with
a question from my guest.
You asked if we could talk about my
general take on the financial benefits
of owning commercial real estate,
Angela Hugghins: Mhm
Timothy Iseler: you wrote to me, "Now
that we're landlords, I'm curious about
the tax advantages, how to maximize
rental income, and any other ways we
can benefit from this new structure."
Welcome to The Thing We Never Talk About.
My name is Tim Iseler.
I'm a certified financial planner, and I
run my own independent financial advisory
business, helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make
smarter decisions with their money.
You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.
If you have a question about money or
personal finance, please send it to me
by visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast,
and I will answer it in a future episode.
And if you enjoy this podcast,
please share it with a friend.
After that, please like and subscribe to
the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
Today I'm speaking with Angela Huggins
an esthetician and small business owner
based in Carrboro, North Carolina.
Angela has worked in her industry
for nearly 30 years, the last 10
of which were entirely on her own
terms, running Monarch Brow and
Facial Studio, a solo specializing
in facials and brow tattooing.
She's also the founder of Cult of Reason,
a small batch skincare business she built
from the ground up starting with a single
product she couldn't find anywhere else.
And just a few months ago, Angela and
her husband purchased a commercial
building where she plans to house
her businesses and also rent space
to other wellness practitioners
for an additional source of income.
You can learn more about her
skincare line at cultofreasonskin.com
and find her YouTube channel by
searching for Cult of Reason.
So thank you for being here, and
please enjoy this conversation
with esthetician Angela Huggins.
Angela Hugghins: Hi.
Timothy Iseler: Hello, how are you today?
Angela Hugghins: I'm good.
How are you?
Timothy Iseler: I'm very well
Angela Hugghins: Excellent.
Timothy Iseler: Is today your, your
day off or your day to not see clients?
Angela Hugghins: Yeah, it's
a day in the middle of the
week that I don't see clients.
Um, Wednesdays is just a nice in
between because Monday and Tuesday
are busy, Thursday and Friday,
and this gives my hands a rest.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
Well, I was gonna ask you this anyway,
but let's just start with this one.
How do you decide how often to work?
Angela Hugghins: Oh my gosh, I'm
my own worst enemy when it comes
to Uh, I would probably work a
little too much, uh, so I've had to
really impose some limits on myself.
I used to do Monday through Thursday,
and then I decided that having that
break in the middle of the week
was really important for my hands.
So was really probably about a
year ago that I decided that.
I can probably work five to
six days a week, but I just
have to, like, cap it at four.
Timothy Iseler: Now my standard
first question, what do you
tell people you do for a living?
Angela Hugghins: I'm an esthetician and I
specialize in facials and brow tattooing.
Timothy Iseler: And you work for yourself?
Angela Hugghins: I do.
Timothy Iseler: Job
working for someone else?
Angela Hugghins: Probably about
11 years ago, 10 years ago.
I just had my anniversary of,
uh, being a solo esthetician.
So I worked for other people for
about 18 years, and then I decided
to, go out on my own, and that's
been ⦠Yeah, this month is 10 years
Timothy Iseler: Do you have any
employees or is it just you?
Angela Hugghins: It's just me.
Timothy Iseler: How do you think of
the value of working for yourself
compared to the relative stability
of working for someone else?
Angela Hugghins: Oh yeah.
I mean, working for someone else de-
it's definitely more stable in the sense
that, you know, you have a front desk
person handling things for you, you
have somebody taking out your taxes.
Um, you know, kind of the show
and you can just kind of show up.
But, I really love doing things on my own.
I really love the, the
hardship that that can create.
I, I thrive on that.
So I don't know that I could actually
go back to work for anybody else.
I, I really enjoy the complexity
that being self-employed offers me.
Timothy Iseler: What's some
of the, the hardship or the
complexity that in particular
that you found really rewarding?
Angela Hugghins: I, I like systems.
I like setting up systems.
I, I wouldn't say that I like being in
charge, but I enjoy having a big picture
overview and then the kind of micro,
so macro into micro, I just really
love being able to change in that way.
I think it stimulates my ADHD.
It fits me.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
What systems have you set up for
yourself to be able to switch
from the macro to the micro?
'Cause that's often what I see with myself
and with other small business owners is
it's so easy to get into the details and,
like, keeping up with email, keeping up
with invoicing, that it's hard sometimes
to step back and see the big picture.
Angela Hugghins: Sure.
Yeah.
Um, I'm, I'm so grateful for the
various platforms that have come out.
You know, I use Square.
I, I try to automate as
many things as possible.
Square, you know, helps me to do that.
But then I also have a virtual assistant
and she comes in about twice a day and,
you know, checks in the morning and
then checks in the evening and, and she
looks at the emails and kind of r- runs
a little inter- interference there.
And if there are questions
that only I can answer she'll,
you know, move those on to me.
So I, I basically have given her
a how-to and some boilerplate
responses for common questions.
then Square, those are my two go-tos.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
So do you, like a, a virtual assistant
or, you know, whatever, operations
manager, that's something that I've
been thinking about for myself 'cause
I feel like in the last few months,
I- it's hard for me to define what my
capacity is, but I kind of feel like
I'm brushing up against my capacity, and
that's something I've been considering.
How did you find that person?
Angela Hugghins: You know, I
like this was a little bit luck.
I went to the Facebook Hive,
which I feel like, you know, if
Facebook's good for anything, it's
for, you know, hive mind questions.
So I just said, "Does anybody know a
virtual assistant, uh, could be here,
could be anywhere, that they've used,
um, that they've had success with?"
And my friend Charlie just piped
in and said, "Oh, Wendy," his
girlfriend, locally does that.
And, you know, I already knew Wendy.
So I just didn't realize that she
did virtual assistance and had her
own, you know, kind of setup for it.
So it was quite easy.
and then I just needed to make, some, some
kind of, uh, instructions and boilerplate
responses for her and kind of just get her
familiar with the lay of the land, set up
some passwords for her to get into certain
email groups, you know, so she could have
access to the different things that I
needed her to, and it was really simple.
Timothy Iseler: How much of the the
instructions or the boilerplate, how
much was that set up in advance by you,
and how much of that was done with her
as you were kind of learning, as she was
learning how to work for you and how you
were learning how to have an assistant?
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
The, the boilerplate stuff I had
kind of already set up for myself
because I was doing a lot of that, uh,
especially with forms that needed to be
filled out for things like tattooing.
That's a, a county requirement.
So I'd already kind of had that set up
for myself, and then it was a matter
of putting it into a document for her.
And then w- as we worked in that first
bit of time, I got a feel for what
she needed, and so I created some
things then specifically for her.
I think it was a, a back and
forth effort for a little bit.
Um, and that's what scared me
the most about getting a virtual
assistant, was like, "Oh, it's gonna
be so much work at the beginning,"
and it really wasn't that much.
It was a little bit of effort
that now has paid off dividends.
Timothy Iseler: Oh, great.
I want to talk about that because one of
the concerns that I have in terms of, uh,
I have a one-person business like you, so
if I hire any kind of assistant, all of
that money's just coming out of my pocket.
You know, it's like there'sâ¦
You know, I either pay myself that
money or I pay it to someone else.
So
Angela Hugghins: Sure, sure
Timothy Iseler: the promise of hiring
someone is that then your time will,
your, your valuable time will be
better spent, and then you'll make
more money, and et cetera, et cetera.
How have you found that to work out?
Or, or, or aside from just,
like, it's nice to not do certain
tasks, like how have you found
that to impact your business?
Angela Hugghins: I think that I, I
feel like I could put a, a dollar
amount on the amount of stress that it
saved me, if I had to quantify that.
But truly, like, just the weight of,
you know, getting to the end of the
day and realizing, oh, I don't have to
send 10 emails now, and, uh, I don't
have to then go through all my emails.
So the stress factor for me
is worth a dollar amount.
And then she just, she saves me
time during the day, and I can
actually rest between my clients.
And for me, being an introvert, uh,
doing an extrovert's job, is alsoâ¦
I, I feel like that could probably
go in the stress category, but
I'm willing to pay somebody
to take that stress off of me.
know, if I had to sit down and
find a number for that, I'm not
sure I could, but she probably only
spends 30 minutes a day for me.
You have 15 minutes in the morning
and 15 minutes in the evening, so it
doesn't end up being a huge dollar
amount that I spend on her, but
what I feel in, in return is huge.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
You bring up a good point that
when you work for yourself and
there's no, there's no back end,
there's no back office, right?
You're doing it all.
Like, every hour you spend with a
client is probably really about one
and a half to two hours worth of
work, because there's just so much
that happens behind the scenes.
And that's, that's one
interesting way to think about it.
Like, it's not just reducing the stress,
but it's like if you, you know, and if
you see four clients a day, and that
actually turns out to be like eight hours
worth of work, and you can make the same
amount but not work those extra hours,
like you've made each hour more valuable.
Angela Hugghins: Definitely
Timothy Iseler: In terms of the
esthetician work, it's very much based on
you being able to show up and be there in
person, you know, and so that you, aside
from just raising your rates, there's not
really another way to grow 'cause, you
know, there's only so many hours in a day.
How do you think about- Or, or
do you think about your goals
for the growth of that business?
Is it like revenue-based or
is it more lifestyle-based?
In other words, you could take on more
clients and grow the dollar amount, but
then your days would be more packed,
you'd have less energy, et cetera.
Or you could accept making less
money but just have more freedom in
your life, which I would think of
as more of like a lifestyle reward.
How do you think about that?
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
You know, it's, it's funny.
I had to take, um, I chose to take
four months off last year because I
kind of reached burnout because I was
approaching it very much as a, a revenue
dollar amount, and realized that at
this point in my life, I'm 51, I can't
r- really do it that way anymore.
So now I do approach it as
more of a lifestyle situation.
how do I feel day to day?
What does, what does my body feel like
going into care services where I'm
literally using my body, you know,
as an esthetician, as, in massaging.
So like how does my body feel
really kind of my guiding point,
and then what is my stress level?
So it has shifted.
I did change.
Timothy Iseler: Do you set goals
around that for yourself each year?
Angela Hugghins: I do.
I do, and, and I'm the only one
who keeps me from fulfilling them.
I, I gu- I guess I, umâ¦
Yeah, I do set the goals, and I
probably reset them multiple times.
Um, I think about it yearly, I
think about it monthly, and just
refresh myself because Wendy
doesn't ever push into a schedule.
She knows these are boundaries.
It's me who's like, "Oh, yeah,
yeah, I can fit you in here," and
I'm stretching that space that I
promised myself that I wouldn't.
so it's a, it's a little
bit of a struggle that way.
But, um, it is definitely a better
metric for me to use these days,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Do you ever write any of those down or
do you kind of keep them in your head?
Angela Hugghins: I pro- they
probably just stay in my head.
It might help me to write them down
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I started doing
that a few years ago, and what I found
is right away I was way too ambitious.
You know?
I was, like, setting goals that, likeâ¦
Setting goals for the quarter that
would, like, maybe I'd be lucky
if I got that during the year.
You know what I mean?
Angela Hugghins: Right.
Timothy Iseler: But it has been nice this
year in particular, 'cause my, my business
has been growing this year, to have itâ¦
I keep a sheet of paper on my wall
with my quarterly goals, and to be able
to be like, "Okay, you know, Check.
I did that one."
It feels really good, you know?
Angela Hugghins: Yeah
Timothy Iseler: one that I, uh, I aspire
towards, I'm not quite there yet, that
I heard from another financial advisor
who works for himself, is that he wanted,
uh, when he started his own business,
he wanted to take one week remotely, you
know, maybe that's vacation, maybe that's
just remote work, for every year that
he had been in business, and that seemed
like a really good, you know, really
good reward for growing your business,
is to actually have time away from it.
Angela Hugghins: Yes.
Timothy Iseler: we talked a minute
ago about how you decide when to work.
How do you decide how much to charge?
Angela Hugghins: interesting.
I, a couple years ago, I guess it's been
probably about two, uh, one of my clients
is finance, and she was saying, know,
"You, you've gotta raise your rates.
just to keep up with inflation,
but you need to think about how you
can balance time and money, and you
have a wait list of over 200 people.
That says you need to raise your prices.
And yes, you will lose some people."
So I took a big leap and
made a big price jump then.
I knew I would lose people, but
it was kind of part of the plan.
I needed to pare down my client
list, and I've been doing this for
26, 27 years, so I'm kind of in
the more premium price range now.
So it was a, it was a big jump to do
that, and a, and, you know, had to take
a, a deep breath and go, "All right.
This, the right thing to do."
the funny thing is, is I, I
maybe lost three or four clients.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah
Angela Hugghins: You know, I was really
surprised, but, you know, I, my facial
price jumped way up, and I thought, "Oh,
surely I'm gonna lose half the people."
But it, it was also, um, kind of a,
a compliment to me that people said,
"Yes, no, raise your prices, and I'm
gonna go with that much higher price."
Timothy Iseler: Hmm.
So you're sort of pleasantly
surprised by the reaction.
How did you initially approach
people about that price increase?
Angela Hugghins: Uh, I started leaving
out little signs to say that, you know,
there's going to be a price increase atâ¦
I, I actually think I did it January 1.
So inâ¦
So sometimes I'll see people on a monthly
basis or a seasonal basis, so I started
leaving out a sign, like, well in advance,
three months in advance or so, let people
know there would be a price adjustment.
And then put it in emails,
just got people ready for it.
I didn't say how much that would be.
I just said there would be a price jump
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's a good,
that's a good recommendation to people
because I know for a lot of people who
work for themselves, a lot of people
who work creatively, this feeling of
like, "What if I charge too much?"
It's not even just, "Am
I gonna lose clients?"
But it's like, "Are people gonna, you
know, think different of me," right?
And g- giving them advance warning is
really helpful, I think, k- 'cause it does
kind of s- it, it normalizes it a little.
But for whatever reason, it's
totally arbitrary, but for whatever
reason, a January 1st price increase
seems to make sense to people.
But there's no reason for it.
It could be a July 1st, right?
But,
Angela Hugghins: could be
Timothy Iseler: but, right, but for some
reason, that seems to click with people.
I wanted to bring up something also
to your earlier point about the,
the supply and demand, basically.
Like, you have a limited amount of
supply, meaning the limited number
of hours you can work, and then if
you have this demand and raising the
rate, like that's, that's, I think, a
pretty simple way to think about it.
You know, everybody gets supply
and demand to a certain degree.
But then there's also this, um tendency,
bias, I don't know what the right word is.
For people who don't know how to
value something, they look at price
as a metric for quality, right?
So if you don't know what something
is worth, sometimes setting a premium
rate signals this is a premium service.
You know, even if it's the same
service you've been delivering.
Like have you found that?
Like do you f- do you feel like people
have changed their perception of your
value as you've increased your rates?
Angela Hugghins: Probably so.
I did increase the rates, I also
increased, in my opinion, the
value of the, the facial that I
gave with some new technology.
So it wasn't just a price
jump with no change.
So I felt like I was actually bringing
something new to the table that,
that does cost a little bit more.
and then, you know, for a client's
perspective, I do think it, it probably
changes how they feel about what
they're receiving, psychologically.
Timothy Iseler: Mhm So that's, that's
one side of your business, which is very
dependent on you being there in person.
You also have your own skincare
line called Cult of Reason.
Can you tell me about how you decided
to make your own product business?
And then before that, just
tell people where they can
learn more about that business.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah, so Cult
of Reason has its own website.
It's cultofreasonskin.com.
Iâ¦
It's, uh, truly something that I
wanted to do since I was a kid.
I've always been into the chemistry and
making formulas of, you know, of products.
I think I used myself in middle
school, and my friends and
my parents as guinea pigs.
So it's kind of always been
a part of what I've done.
Then when I truly put that into a
plan was, a product that I had used
for years on my skin and my dad
had used went out of production,
and you couldn't find it at all.
And I kind of thought, "Okay,
this is where I'm gonna start.
I just can't do it right now 'cause
I don't have the capital to do it,
but, at some point I'm gonna save up
a bunch of money and I'm gonna make
this one product," mainly because I
missed it and, and my dad missed it.
So I was kinda making it for us, but
everybody else gets to benefit from it.
So I started with that one product,
and that just went off so well
that I've thought, "Well, maybe
I could actually, you know, build
something else to go along with it."
Uh, I, I've always wanted to keep
things very simple, so it wasn't a
grandiose plan of many, many products,
but starting, you know, small with
the next product, and then waiting
a little time, and the next product.
So it was a very measured approach.
Timothy Iseler: How did you know
how to make that first product?
Angela Hugghins: Um, well, I had a
friend who turned me on to a cosmetics
group that does, like, white labeling,
but they also do custom formulations.
And talking with them, I learned
how makes a custom product.
Um, it always starts
with a benchmark product.
Even if you are trying to make something
a little bit different and iconic, they
still want to see some other product
that you've loved that's in this field.
So, uh, I actually went onto eBay and
found that, that brand, which was Pernox,
found that brand on eBay for $500 a
tube, and I thought, "Oh, that's pretty
steep, but I guess this is R&D, so
I'm gonna write it off at some point."
So I bought that tube for $500, and
then I sent them that as a sample,
and then I told them how I wanted to
change it with updated ingredients.
I wanted to take the plastics
out and replace it with pumice
and, update the surfactants.
And you go through several iterations,
and then you have a product
that you ultimately have chosen.
You know, you've, you've refined it
enough, and you have your product.
so that's, that's how that started,
and it took about two years.
Timothy Iseler: How do you sell that?
I mean, you have your website, so I assume
people can buy it directly, and I assume
you offer it to your clients in person.
But are you in other stores as well?
Angela Hugghins: I have a few
little boutique stores that I'm in.
getting into a bigger specialty store
is a lot harder because they have--
lot of those people have scouts, you
know, they're looking for something
that has a, a, a large apparatus behind
them, and, um, mine is much smaller.
So I've never actually tried to get
into anything larger than boutiques.
And I only have three products,
um, uh, in addition to-- I have
actually added a mask to it.
But I've always intended it to be small.
Never, of being in Sephora.
Um, I-- they have a whole pipeline
of getting into Sephora that I
just didn't wanna be a part of.
So I've solicited some, some boutiques,
sent them samples, and there it went.
Timothy Iseler: You don't
have to name numbers.
You know, we don't have to get into
specifics, but in terms of like your
initial investment and the-- and
running a product business, like
how successful has it been for you?
Angela Hugghins: Um,
it's fairly successful.
It's difficult, I'll say.
Skincare is a challenging area to be in.
There's so much out there.
I have definitely paid
back what I put into it.
marketing is, of course,
a very expensive venture.
So I don't know that y- I could say
that this is a huge money maker.
It's more of a passion project, something
that I just really love, love being a part
of, and it makes a little bit of money,
and it, it, you know, keeps itself going.
So it's self-funding at this point.
yeah, it's, it's, it's hard.
Timothy Iseler: Aside from the marketing,
what are, what are like maybe one or
two challenges that you didn't expect?
Angela Hugghins: Oh my gosh, tariffs.
Timothy Iseler: Oh God.
Okay
Angela Hugghins: chain.
I mean, like, wouldn't, wouldn't
have thought about that.
Um, so that's, that's a big one.
Um, because some of my ingredients
just simply aren't made in the US.
They aren't grown here.
They have to come from somewhere else.
So that, that's a big one.
surprised that I didn't n-
even know to know to plan for.
and then, you know, y- you learn about
pricing models and you have to really
take into consideration every little
bit that goes into this one product.
It's packaging, it's labels, it's
shipping, it's, um, factoring
and marketing for each thing.
So it isn't just the base price of
this is the, the raw material and
this is the, the vessel it's in.
You gotta think about everything
into this one little thing.
And then is this a pr- is this a,
a, a dollar amount that my clients
would spend on this product?
You know?
Like I can't command, um,
Augustinus Bader prices.
He's
big, you know, I think he's a
dermatologist with a big line.
expensive.
no way could my products compete
with that, so I have to think about
where does this fit in the market
and what's my target audience and
do they have the expendable money
to spend on a thing like this?
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
How much of that did you think about
in advance, you know, both like the
retail price but also, you know,
any kind of volume discounts of
like your, your containers or your,
your labels or anything like that?
How much of that did you
have figured out in advance?
Or did youâ¦
How much of that did you even
know to figure out in advance?
Angela Hugghins: had
some of it figured out.
I kind of started looking around to
see, especially within the amount of
quantity I was gonna be buying, uh, small
quantities are a little more challenging.
You know, they want you to buy in large
quantities, you get a better discount,
but that's not what I had money for.
So I did spend some time looking around
before I really invested and started
actually gathering things as I could.
So there was planning involved.
and then, then there are
certainly things that you just
don't know until you get there.
freight charges, um, it's, it's not
as simple as, you know, USPS and do
these things, you have to arrange
for freight and, and stuff like that.
That I didn't know.
So what I did think about is that
I have a price range that I know
my clients could spend and were,
would be willing to spend on.
everything that I knew, could I enough
profit off of each individual product?
And if, if the answer was
yes, then I'm gonna, yes, I'm
gonna go forward with this.
If the answer is no, I can't actually
make any money off of this, then it
was just not gonna be a good idea.
So thankfully, I, I was able, able to
get it into a per product price range
that, you know, makes, funds itself.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
What would a, a everything worked out
version of that business be for you?
Angela Hugghins: Oh, I mean,
I'd love to be in more stores.
Um, I'd love to be in more
boutiques and, um, yeah, and
maybe grow some more products.
some of that really depends on tariffs
and things like that, if those change.
Timothy Iseler: Mhm, mhm.
Angela Hugghins: But in, in a
perfect world, yeah, I'd probably
be, you know, what we would call
a small to medium sized business.
I'd hire maybe one person to help me.
Uh, 'cause I do everything.
I, I package the things.
When you get a, when you get a box
in the mail, it's me who did it.
So in a perfect world I'd maybe hire one
other person and have it be that size.
Timothy Iseler: Could you see a scenario
where if that, if that company grew to a
certain size, you would stop doing your,
you know, your regular, your regular job?
. Angela Hugghins: I don't know.
I think I would miss seeing clients, to
Timothy Iseler: Yeah
Angela Hugghins: I, I might
become more part-time.
I might, you know, maybe go two days a
week seeing clients, and then spend the
other time working on that business.
really ever see myself
stopping doing facials and
microneedling and brow tattoos.
It's just fun for me.
It's creative for me
Timothy Iseler: I feel like with the work
that I do, one of the best feelings is w-
is like seeing somebody have a positive
reaction to the work we do together.
I would imagine that that's a huge
part of your job satisfaction too.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
I've gotten some just wonderful
heartwarming letters from people, like in
the mail, sent it in the mail, you know?
You changed my life.
Somebody who had cancer and we gave them
some eyebrows that they couldn't grow
back, that was really meaningful to them.
You know, it's, it is, it is
such a good feeling when you get
something like that in the mail.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I'm sure.
Why isn't anyone sending me that mail?
Angela Hugghins: Do, do, should
I send you a piece of mail?
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's what I want.
So you mentioned to me that you also
recently purchased a commercial building,
Angela Hugghins: Yeah
Timothy Iseler: and in addition to housing
your businesses, you also wanna rent space
to other businesses as a form of income.
How did you decide to make that leap?
'Cause that is a big, it's a big not only
commitment, but it's a big potential risk.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
Well, the funny thing is, is that I was
actually doing it back in 2020, and it
was the very beginning of the pandemic.
And I was sitting there with the inspector
as we were going through the house,
and that was the day that the North
Carolina governor said all non-essential
businesses need to close indefinitely.
And I thought, "Oh, I think this
might be a mistake of timing."
So I backed out, and then thought I
kind of missed my opportunity because
the town that I work in is kind of
small, and property is not easy to find.
And it's always been
in the back of my mind.
and then an opportunity fell into
my lap just, you know, couple
months ago, a few months ago, and
we just decided to take that risk.
it seemed too good to
pass up, to be honest.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
If you don't mind me asking, was
that something you were able to do
on your own, or did you have to line
up investors to make that happen?
Angela Hugghins: W- kind of magical
thing here was that we had finished
up the, um, estate and sale of
my father-in-law as he passed,
Timothy Iseler: Oh
Angela Hugghins: he left money to
my husband who also had, you know,
really wanted to be involved in a
commercial property, um, in our town.
So it was just magical timing.
We did not have toâ¦
We, we do have a mortgage loan, but
we didn't have to scramble because
we had the down payment plus some
from the sale of the, the house.
now back in 2020 had saved up a
considerable amount of money I
put that down and then got a loan.
So this time around was
actually a little bit easier.
so we're just really lucky
that, that that happened for us.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
What's the status of that building?
Do you already own it right now?
Angela Hugghins: Yes, we just
closed, uh, about three weeks ago
Timothy Iseler: Okay.
And what's your timeline for
getting your businesses in there?
Angela Hugghins: Well,
that's a good question too.
Depends on the town of, that we're in.
Um, they're a little slow
on the permitting process,
Timothy Iseler: Ha!
Angela Hugghins: so we're waiting on that.
But ideally, um, I'd love
to say Thanksgiving time.
but you know, could be, could
be a little bit longer depending
on, uh, inspections and such
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Do you have a vision for what types
of businesses you want to be in
the other spaces, or is that even
something that you have control over?
Angela Hugghins: Uh, I think I
have a fair amount of control.
our town is really health-oriented,
wellness-oriented, so there are so many
interesting wellness services around
here and people who offer them that
I don't think I'll have any trouble.
But I would love to see of self-care
and wellness in the building.
Uh, there'll, there'll be four
total spaces, including mine, so
could I invite another esthetician?
Sure, and maybe that would be more
of a, like a 1099 kind of contractor.
you know, there's just an
interesting variety of, of the
ways people work around here.
I'm hoping to attract some
really different folks.
Different wellness services.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's great.
you mentioned potentially having
another esthetician as a 1099.
Have you ever done that before?
Angela Hugghins: No, that would
be a, that would be a beginning
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angela Hugghins: I would
definitely need advice for
Timothy Iseler: Uh-huh.
Is that something that is
that interesting to you?
Angela Hugghins: Kind of.
I, I've never actually
wanted to be an employer.
I know myself really well.
but I could work alongside somebody who
has their own autonomy, and we would
figure out how to, you know, resources
and, and I guess, yeah, with 1099 you
kind of have to figure all that out.
Like, what benefit do they get from
being under my umbrella, what kind
of, um, how do you quantify that?
so it's kind of interesting to me.
I'd, I'd love to, to get into that
if the opportunity presents itself,
if the right person comes along.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
What's something you wish that more people
in your industry understood about money?
Angela Hugghins: Oh, yeah.
Not to just money on gadgets all the time.
Because in our industry there is aâ¦
There are so many types of facial machines
and, and I mean, so many machines.
HydraFacial's a big one.
I use a machine called Geneo, but I didn't
spend that money until much later in my
career because they are so expensive.
I mean, really expensive.
So, I think a lot of estheticians
jump out of school and they think,
"Oh, I wanna work with this machine
because it's got this name."
But, you know, that's $30,000 perhaps.
building up your, your clientele based
on other things first, and then saving
up the money to do that is a lot wiser.
I've seen so many estheticians
get turned upside down financially
from spending all this money on a
machine, and just not being able to
bring up the revenue to meet that
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
When you do make those decisions,
how do you choose which upgrades
to, to bring into your business?
Angela Hugghins: Um,
listening to my clients.
What are, you know, what
are their main needs?
What do they express?
and then finding for that.
there's also a lot of marketing
that's done by these companies.
like I mentioned, HydraFacial, I don't
carry that, but it has a huge name, and
on their website you can find a provider.
And they, they put a lot of money
into marketing, so it's a name that
a lot of people who are looking for
high-end facials are asking for.
So, you know, it could be a good,
uh, investment if you have the, the,
already have the revenue for it.
so I think, you know, looking at
the industry, going to conventions
where you can meet these different
companies, is a good idea.
You can try the machines.
and do you think that
your clientele wants that?
Because people want
technology-based facials.
If your clientele wants that, that's
great, but if your clientele wants
hands-on maybe more healing, then
that wouldn't be a good match for you.
You'd spend a whole lot of money, and then
your clients would not enjoy that so much.
So really paying attention to who's
in front of you and what they want.
Timothy Iseler: Have you done those
kinds of calculations the same way
that you mentioned with Cult of Reason?
If you want to introduce a new product,
you kind of have to figure out in
advance, can I even make money at this?
Have you done that when you bring
new machines into your business?
Angela Hugghins: Yes.
Um, is this something I can actually,
like, pay off in X amount of time?
Timothy Iseler: Aha
Angela Hugghins: And, and also
some of these machines have
ongoing fees that they charge you
for access to the, the software.
Is that something that I can continue?
I've definitely thought about
that with Cult of Reason.
a product that's popular enough to
sell on its own without me having
to educate people constantly on it?
do enough people understand the
difference between serums and
oils, or what is a collagen mask?
Is that really hot right now?
Could these fly off the shelf?
You know, uh, I'm not in the position
to introduce a brand new iconic anything
because I don't have the resources
to, say, educate the masses on that.
So I have to go with what's
popular and kind of figure out
what is my version of that.
Timothy Iseler: Think
that's really intuitive.
It reminds me of, I can't remember
where I've heard this, but I know
I've heard it reinforced other places
where there's a, a big difference
between, like, a good service or a
good product and a good business.
So something could be an amazing product,
but if there's no market for it or
if you can't do it at the scale that
you're at, it just can't be a business.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah, and I think about
estheticians who are maybe in small
towns, they have big goals and big dreams
because, if you're paying attention to
media and all the marketing that's coming
at the provider to provide these services,
but you live in an area where you're
not gonna be able to charge that kind of
price for a service, you're never gonna
be able to pay back the ex- very expensive
machine that's associated with that.
Um, you might need to consider
commuting to a larger town.
So, I think that estheticians need to be
smart about how they are being marketed
to by the makers of these machines.
Timothy Iseler: Mhm
Angela Hugghins: it may not be
feasible for where you are in
your career or geographically
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
You bring up social media, and that's,
that reminds me of something which
is, you know, you've been in this
industry for a long time, so obviously
when you started there was no social
media, and shocking as it is, even
doing business over the internet was
kind of a, a novel thing in those days.
How have you seen the expectations
of your audience change as things
like social media have become
popular, where everybody can now see
Angela Hugghins: Oh,
Timothy Iseler: what everyone else can
do, from the very richest to the, you
Angela Hugghins: Oh,
yes, it's changed a lot.
Um, people are just definitely more savvy
about brand names that go along with
products and, and protocols and machines.
And, and some of the younger
folks who come in, you know,
they'll, they'll spout off a name.
"Oh, you know, you follow so-and-so."
And I'm like, "I have
no idea who that is."
It's just there's, there's so much, you
can't possibly keep up with everybody and,
there's little niches that people follow.
And so I get educated by my clients,
like, "Oh, I didn't, I did not know
so-and-so existed and what they're doing."
So now I'm clued into that.
they've, they've educate- the,
especially the younger ones have
educated me on who's popular.
S- which makes me understand
about myself that I work
really intuitively with people.
all those things can
change on social media.
while I am paying attention to
some aspect of, of the popularity
of things, I'm really working
intuitively with people one-on-one
and listening to what they want.
there's real safety in that grounding.
Like, feel good about the service I
provide, even if it doesn't match up
to what's happening on social media in
different pockets, different corners.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Do you think of yourself as being
part of a niche or having a niche?
Angela Hugghins: Um, sort of.
Um, I don't really fit the,
like, influencer vibe or look.
Um, and I'm not trying for that.
I'm notâ¦
do make videos and things like
that, but really more educational.
And so feel like the niche that I
belong to is I'm a very "hi, I'm
a very normal looking person."
I have, don't do a whole lot of work
to my face to be, you know, presentable
on social media, and I think that
that's really relatable for people.
a sort of aspirational esthetician
that's out there that is seamlessly
put together, and then there's me.
I think that, um, you know, it's like
the, the movement of aging gracefully,
whatever gracefully means, is just more
my speed than keeping up with every trend
Timothy Iseler: Is there anything,
any habit, any strategy you have
in your own personal finances
that makes you feel really proud?
Angela Hugghins: I mean, yeah, 'cause any,
any aspect of it honestly makes me feel
proud because I didn't come from a really,
financial and numbers based, background.
I'm, I'm an art person and I have ADHD,
so I have always worked with my hands
and kind of eschewed numbers and math.
any growth that I have had in
financial planning is tremendous to me.
So learning how to read profit and
loss, learning how to plan based
on numbers, that might be just
nothing to somebody who's grown up
with that, but that's huge to me.
having, uh, another business, uh, that
is actually very much about numbers and
movement of volume has taught me a lot
about how to plan for quarters, to think
ahead, uh, how much marketing dollars
do I need to put ahead at certain times.
So, I've grown into planning,
to financial planning.
It was not, uh, an organic
situation for myself
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
One thing that kind of surprised me when
I started this career is I knew people
like me who had worked in creative
industries, had worked independently,
you know, in various ways, whether
that's freelance or small business
or whatever, and I knew that a lot of
those people didn't have that what we
think of as sort of more traditional
education when it comes to both
personal finances and business finances.
But I've been really surprised through
this business is how many people that
have straight jobs that I assumed kind
of had just, just learned this stuff,
because that's what people with straight
jobs do, who don't really know anything.
And, and including sometimes business
owners that make all the same mistakes
as everyone else, and, uh, I don't know.
From, from my perspective, when someone
tells me, like, th- they feel like
they're behind or they wish they had
known this stuff earlier, I think
almost everyone I come into contact with
has some version of that, regardless
of what they do for a living or what
they studied in school or anything.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah, yeah
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, maybe somebody who
got their MBA would feel differently,
but those people make mistakes, too
Angela Hugghins: Right
Timothy Iseler: What's something
you love to do that's cheap or free?
Angela Hugghins: hmm
That is a good question.
What is cheap or free these days?
Um,
well, I'm, I love going hiking
and, and taking my dogs for a walk.
I don't know if that's, uh,
uh, as anything there, but,
uh, the forest is free.
The wood, the wood trails are, are free.
I like that.
Um, yeah.
A- and I, I do a lot of gardening, which
can be free if you know how to do that.
Or it can be, "Oops, I just
spent another $100 on plants."
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
I think in terms of hobbies and
how much time, at least how much
time I spend on it, gardening is a
good one 'cause it does cost money
periodically, whether you're buying
plants or even buying seeds, you know.
It does cost some money.
Angela Hugghins: If
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Angela Hugghins: propagate,
then you're really, then you're
Timothy Iseler: Then you're,
Angela Hugghins: well.
Timothy Iseler: you're
really saving money then.
But in terms of, like, dollars spent per
hour of, I'll call it entertainment, you
know, like compared to, uh, whatever,
uh, a sports package on television or
something, like, it's a really good
return on, uh, money spent in terms of
the amount of activity and, and theâ¦
I
Angela Hugghins: Oh, yeah
Timothy Iseler: I think especially, I
came into it really in the pandemic,
and being able to have something to do
outside where the whole point was just
be outside doing something, you know?
It's not like, "I wanna get this done
so that I can get onto the next thing."
It's like, "I wanna do this
because I can be outside.
I don't have to think about other things."
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
Uh, I grew up on a plant farm, and so
there's something really soothing about
working with plants and trying to figure
out how to propagate different things.
And, um, I think that,
yeah, that has a huge value
Timothy Iseler: Mhm
So Angela, I end every conversation
with a question from my guest.
You asked if we could talk about my
general take on the financial benefits
of owning commercial real estate,
Angela Hugghins: Mhm
Timothy Iseler: you wrote to me, "Now
that we're landlords, I'm curious about
the tax advantages, how to maximize
rental income, and any other ways we
can benefit from this new structure."
So I'm gonna start with
some of the tax benefits.
I'm gonna include some of the ones
that are the most, the easiest
to understand and the easiest
to actually take advantage of.
Angela Hugghins: Mm-hmm.
Timothy Iseler: So number one is that
the mortgage interest is deductible the
same way it is on your primary residence.
It happens a little bit differently,
like on your primary residence, you
can itemize it on your tax return,
whereas with a business, that's
just treated as a business expense.
So that's an easy one where, you
know, you're paying that mortgage
interest anyway, and it counts as a, a
deduction, you know, reduces the amount
of profit you have to pay taxes on.
So that's an easy one.
I think everybody kinda gets that one.
Another one is depreciation.
So whenever you have commercial property
of any kind, whether that's literal
real estate, you know, real property,
or whether that's, um, a machine that
you use for your business, it loses
value every year, or, you know, in
theory, it loses value every year,
and so you can recognize depreciation.
And with commercial real estate, the
depreciation schedule is pretty fast, and
so what ends up happening is that you're
able to recognize a lot of depreciation
in kind of a compressed amount of time,
and that means that for at least the
first probably 10 plus years, a good
deal of your rental income will just be
completely offset by that depreciation.
So those are two really easy ones.
Anybody, you know, anybody paying
a mortgage on a commercial building
could access both of those.
There's another one that is pretty easy
if you qualify called Qualified Business
Income deduction, QBI is what it's called
Angela Hugghins: Mhm
Timothy Iseler: You may already,
depending on how you file taxes
for your other businesses, you
may already be using some of this.
the rules that are in place now were
set up by the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs
Act, and if you qualify, not everyone
qualifies, but if you qualify, you
can deduct 20% of your net income
before determining how much of the
profit is taxable, so depending on
your business structure, how much of
it flows through to you as the owner.
And some of the rules about
whether it counts or not is,
uh, how much money you make.
So if you make too much
money, you don't get this.
It's, it's meant to
benefit smaller businesses.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah
Timothy Iseler: another qualifier is
how actively involved you are in the
running of the commercial real estate.
So if you are actively the property
manager, you will likely qualify,
whereas if you bought a piece of
real estate and you hired someone
else to be the property manager, you
probably wouldn't get that tax break.
So those are three that are pre-pretty
easy to understand, and most people will
try to layer several or all of those.
There are others that get more
advanced, and a lot of the more
advanced tax techniques are more
about, like, what happens when you
sell, and there are a number of things
you can do when you're ready to sell
to sort of delay or avoid taxes.
but I don't think that necessarily
applies to you, so I don't wanna
get too much in the weeds on those.
Does-- Do all of those make sense to you?
Angela Hugghins: Yeah, definitely.
Mm-hmm
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, the QBI is,
uh, it's pretty easy to figure out.
Um, if you use a CPA, they'll be able to
tell you right away if you can qualify.
And so in terms of maximizing your
profits, I don't necessarily have awesome
ideas or a ton of experience on that, you
know, the commercial real estate market.
One thing I'll say that maybe would
be a little counterintuitive, but I
think one way to maximize profits is
actually to understand how much cash
you need to keep around at all times.
And I think probably your experience
running two businesses already
will help you understand this.
But just the same way that everybody
could benefit from having, like,
an emergency fund for unexpected
expenses, I think considering the same
thing for a business is a great idea.
So an easy way to set a target
would be like, what's the
average upkeep of the property?
So, you know, if you-- if your, you know,
property taxes would certainly fall into
that, insurance would fall into that.
So would things like, uh, if you need to
get the lawn mowed, if you need whatever.
Add those in there and think about before
you transfer money from the business
account to your personal account, make
sure you have a good buffer in there
so that something goes wrong, you know,
periodically you're gonna need a new roof.
You might need new HVAC, like, all of
that stuff has to get paid for somehow.
And if you've got a big cushion
of money that the business kind
of holds at all times, it willâ¦
It, it's not exactly like maximizing
profits, but it's making it so that you're
much, much more resilient, which I think
in the long term kind of does allowâ¦
Angela Hugghins: yeah.
Timothy Iseler: it allows you to do
more with the profits above that level.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
Timothy Iseler: Does that make sense?
Angela Hugghins: It does.
It does
Timothy Iseler: One thing that I know
that a lot of people don't take into
consideration when they become new, new
landlords is all of the things that you
kind of-- that you can't account for.
Like, for example, like the new roof,
the new water heater, like all that
stuff you can kind of understand,
like, "I'm gonna have to pay this much
about every 10 or 15 years," right?
But then, especially when you have
tenants is, like a, a standard commercial
lease might be, you know, several years.
So let's say you do a two-year lease,
and if your tenants turn over every
two years, you may have periods
where there's nobody in there, right?
So even if you're commanding a really
good rental price per square foot, if
every two years you lose three months
getting someone else in, you know, in
the, in the meantime, you probably have to
have a cleaner in or, you know, whatever
you have to do, I think a lot of people
don't account for that kind of stuff.
So I would just say when it comes to
anticipating your expenses, anticipating
the, the vacancy rates, to be much
more conservative with those and,
whenever possible, to have like a
stockpile of cash for those situations.
So it might mean that for the first couple
of years, you're not really transferring
many profit, many of the-- much of the
profit to your personal account, but
in the long term, I think it'll make
everything run so much more smoothly.
Angela Hugghins: Sure.
Yeah, think of it more
as a long, a long goal.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm sure you know this being
a small business owner, like if a
business shows a profit, you're gonna
get taxed on that, whether it sits in
a business account or whether it gets
transferred to your personal account.
So it, it's not necessarily like you're
not gonna recognize those profits, but
keeping it in the business account,
at least until you've got this cushion
built up, like I think six months would
be a pretty good starting place, six
months worth of operating expenses.
Angela Hugghins: Mhm
Timothy Iseler: And that way you'llâ¦
When you do get those hits, when
you get those vacancies, you won't
have to stress about it because
you've already laid the groundwork.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
I think that's very smart.
Timothy Iseler: Oh, well, one thing I
did want to bring up, which I think you
are already clued into, is if beyond like
where your town and what section of your
town is, if there is kind of a synergy
of the other tenants in the building.
So like if you're bringing in a certain
type of client and the other tenants in
your place are benefiting because you're
bringing in a certain type of client,
it might be worth it for them to stick
around and possibly pay a slight premium
compared to going somewhere else where
there isn't that synergy or maybe they
have to be responsible for bringing
in all of the traffic as opposed to
kind of benefiting from your traffic.
Angela Hugghins: That's interesting,
yeah, thinking about what,
what is a premium for that.
What, how much would they benefit from
my 26 years of being in this town and
building up a clientele also utilizes many
wellness services outside of my stuff.
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Like an easy example would
be like a coffee shop, right?
Like if you had a standalone coffee
shop where people had to go there,
find a parking spot to order coffee,
et cetera, versus I'm already going
to this place, on my way out, I'll
grab a cup of coffee, or on my way
in, I'll grab a cup of coffee, right?
It's like y- the location, not
having to generate all the traffic
is worth, it's worth something.
You know?
It's worth a little bit of a premium.
Angela Hugghins: Absolutely.
Yeah, I'll have to think
about what that looks like.
Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah.
And that's one reason, I'm, I don't wanna
discourage you from hiring someone else
to work within your business or, or with
you side by side, but that's one reason
I might say getting complementary tenants
rather than tenants who do the same thing.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah.
Yeah, because then, then you get
to spread it out a little bit more.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
And, and everybody's audience has the
potential to grow in that situation.
Angela Hugghins: Yeah, I like that.
Timothy Iseler: What do you think?
Does that seem like a
good place to wrap it up?
Angela Hugghins: I do, I do.
It's been great.
Timothy Iseler: Cool.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for being here.
I really appreciate it.
Angela Hugghins: Oh,
Timothy Iseler: before we,
before we, uh, wrap up, you
mentioned cultofreasonskin.com.
Is there anywhere else you'd like to
send people to learn more about you?
Angela Hugghins: Uh, I also have a YouTube
channel where I, I have ventured into some
self-care videos for aestheticians for
how they can, you know, care for their
aging hands and, you know, our, our tools.
So, um, it's notâ¦
There's not a ton, but I work
on it occasionally and add some.
So that's under the Cult of Reason
moniker on, on YouTube, but it's Monarch
Mending because my business is Monarch.
Timothy Iseler: Mhm
Angela Hugghins: um, if you go to the
Cult of Reason YouTube channel, you'll
be able to see all those videos, too.
Timothy Iseler: That's a great idea,
and I think that's a, I think that's an
awesome idea for somebody who is sort of
in a, like, a veteran position within the
industry is, you know, to not just, uhâ¦
Maybe target seems a little crass,
but not just target, like, the
general public, but target people
in your industry of, like, you know,
"I know what you're going through.
I can help you with this."
I think that's great.
Angela Hugghins: these things?
Yeah
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
especially if you wanna haveâ¦
I would think this, maybe I'm wrong,
but, like, certain services targeted
towards other professionals would,
would warrant a different price than
what you could just charge anybody who
wants to come in to, to work with you.
Does that make sense?
Does that sound right?
Angela Hugghins: It does, yeah.
It does,
Timothy Iseler: Okay.
Well, thanks so much, Angela.
I appreciate it.
Angela Hugghins: Well, thank you so much.
Timothy Iseler: All right,
I'll talk to you soon.
Angela Hugghins: Take care.
Timothy Iseler: Bye.
Thank you to Angela for
talking with me today.
Angela has built not one but two
businesses entirely on her own terms,
and I certainly appreciate how she has
prioritized structuring the businesses
so that they support the lifestyle she
wants, rather than contorting her life
choices to maximize her business profits.
the commercial real estate question
at the end, which is not something
I talk about a lot on this show.
Again, you can learn more about her
skincare line at cultofreasonskin.com
and find her on YouTube
under Cult of Reason.
That's it for today.
Next week, I wanna talk to you about what
happens to your money when you do nothing.
A common thing I see with lots of people,
especially creatives or self-employed
people, is a reluctance to take any risks
with money once they actually have some.
And I totally get that, but that can
lead to some analysis paralysis, this
feeling that you know you should be
doing more, but you're sort of scared
to take that step or even scared
to find out what that next step is.
While I believe that having the right
amount of cash is an awesome idea,
having too much cash can actually
hold you back in the long run.
I'll talk about that next week.
The thing we never talk
about is for educational and
entertainment purposes only.
It is not legal investment or tax advice.
People on the show, including myself,
may have interests for or against
any investments discussed, so do
yourself a favor and don't ever make
any investment decisions based on
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After that, please like and subscribe to
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And if you have a money or finance
question you would like answered
in a future episode, please visit
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Thank you so much for listening.
I appreciate you.