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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:01.00
tylerking
What's up this week Rick yeah yeah, last episode.
00:02.25
Rick
Well, um, update from last week or two weeks ago I get confused because we have this biweekly weekly thing. Yeah, the last episode. So um I was concerned about momentum and meetings and so you you counseled me on hey I should you know do something about that. Um, I basically just said hey let's focus on this That's all I said and we've ah almost had 15 meetings since the last episode this month
00:29.20
tylerking
Yeah, and as a reminder so a meeting being a call with a potential like lead basically and the goal is kind of 1 meeting a day ish. Ah 1 meeting a workday.
00:38.59
Rick
Yeah, so so we are going outbound to small businesses trying to pitch them on our services and we have a goal of 20 meetings a month and we were on track for basically 2 or 3 Yes, there were three last month were 0
00:53.78
tylerking
Um, and there was zero last month is that right? Okay, and so what? so you said there were 15
00:58.30
Rick
Month to date.
01:02.65
Rick
Um, yeah, we got 15 now and we have visibility to 18 and and definitely twenty focus and behavior.
01:06.41
tylerking
Yeah, So what specifically Changed. Um, but like what actual actions changed.
01:18.50
Rick
So specifically where we were spending our time changed so instead of thinking about how to do something ah like outreach or thinking about how to do something like messaging just doing it.
01:19.73
tylerking
The.
01:29.40
tylerking
Yeah, that's awesome. It's it's so incredible. How yeah because what you said last episode was two months ago or something there were a lot of meetings and then it kind of faded to effectively zero and then basically you just said something in slack you were just like hey here's the new focus.
01:31.87
Rick
Bias over Bias to action. Really simple.
01:48.63
tylerking
And immediately it jumped back? Um, which a that's yeah, that's huge now is do you get the impression This is going to turn into sales like yeah it is.
01:49.82
Rick
And everyone is happier.
01:56.54
Rick
Oh yeah, there already is it's already turning into I maybe seen the account sign Ups and the Aor requests and the it's turn. Yeah, you do? Yes, Yeah yeah.
02:03.60
tylerking
I Have that slack Channel Muted I have the one that's like we closed a customer that one I see but I don't see there's so much noise in the other one I don't like at them all.
02:15.72
Rick
Ah, so yes, there are aor requests coming in. There are quote requests coming in. Um and then we also secured this is actually an interesting topic. So 1 meeting. We secured as a result of this behavior change was with a 15 person ah company in Utah with group help insurance. But that's um, in perspective this is a $7000 per year deal for us if we become the agent we start earning that money right away and and so ah, it's ah it's larger than we're used to dealing with and so it's new and ah while I think if we asked for the business. We probably get it today.
02:38.29
tylerking
Um, that's huge.
02:50.17
Rick
We had our partner meeting on Monday and rather than jump right into grabbing the business we actually are offering two months of free consulting before we actually ask for the business. Some of that we can look under the hood and understand some of the more complicated processes that come with the larger company with 15 employees and so Jd got the yes to that and um. I met today with the Ceo to work out how he could get access to all the systems and basically be ah, an extended member of the team for the next couple of months. Um, and that's just one that's one of those meetings of the 15 that I was talking about that has turned into like a real like it's a free customer like we're getting. We're doing it for free. But I think if we as long as we just like show up.
03:16.70
tylerking
Um.
03:26.64
tylerking
Um, yeah.
03:29.30
Rick
Ah, for the next two months and there aren't any huge surprises that should convert to a you know a sizable deal.
03:35.20
tylerking
That's awesome. So yeah I don't know I don't know what the takeaways here are I mean anyone can listen to last episode to hear how how you kind of got reached that conclusion or whatever. But 1 thing I take away because I also saw your interaction with j d that's kind of a fly in the wall is like. Sometimes the solution to a really hard problem is just to say a relatively simple thing out loud and in this case I mean yeah, that like Jd had to go execute but basically was you saying hey remember how our goal is to get meetings and you know how we're not getting meetings. Um like goal get meetings like i'm. Kind of simplifying it but not really right.
04:12.91
Rick
Yeah, the the main thing I said is ah we had a lot of other stuff going on that wasn't contributing to getting meetings done and so the only thing I would add that I said was don't do anything else. Nothing else matters like so let's go back to the basics and to.
04:25.10
tylerking
Um, yeah, yeah.
04:31.50
Rick
So so the key thing was like the key key takeaway the phrase that I remember from last episode was op. You can optimize nothing and so all all the work that we're doing on improving the business long term is predicated on this like maintaining the shortterm momentum of talking to prospects every day if we don't have that like this.
04:48.14
tylerking
Um, yeah.
04:49.91
Rick
Optimization stuff that we're doing for the long term isn't isn't useful at all. Um, and so ah, basically said stop all that and until we we and you're not allowed to work on it. But basically you know all of us are not allowed to work on it because I was contributing to the problem too. In fact, that probably was a source of the largest source of distraction but but basically saying like.
04:59.82
tylerking
Um, this.
05:09.55
Rick
Hey, we can't work on this stuff until we get this momentum built again and and nothing else matters until we get this momentum built up and now it's like we're not going to go back to the old way of doing things. We're just going to maintain this momentum for the I can't I for the foreseeable future I can't see us. Like we're very the media we have ah our our marketing coach meeting on Thursdays for an hour and I could just could. There's such a sensitivity to distracting the momentum right now that Jd has built he booked 4 meetings yesterday just as and an idea. Um.
05:36.95
tylerking
Um, yeah I saw that.
05:40.84
Rick
It's like ah are you are you sure we should talk about this. Are you sure we should commit to that like is this going to like Destroy momentum or build it ah is distract from Momentum or add to it and and so it's a it's It's been huge.
05:53.26
tylerking
Yeah, have you heard of? are you familiar with the concept of a heaten Bomb Um I hope I'm pronounce that right, There's not. It's not so ah hiten shah I hope I'm pronouncing pronouncing his name right? Um, he's you know like a founder and he realized as he started like managing people that.
05:56.80
Rick
It sounds like a it sounds like a good thing though. No.
06:11.80
tylerking
He would like go talk to an employee and just like mention something offhand like oh you know? Yeah, here's a cool idea like wouldn't that be fun and then like months later it turns out the employee took that and like started working on it because it's like the Ceo said this to me and so a heat and bomb is when he would like you just drop something and then walk away and he he didn't think anything of it. But the employee you know when the Ceo says something you think you have to act and so like part of being a Ceo is either don't say it in the first place or I don't know if I do this effectively but I regularly say like unis or marketer I'm like hey here's like a marketing idea. Don't do this.
06:46.78
Rick
Ah.
06:47.53
tylerking
Like put this at the bottom of the list and when we run out of other ideas here's an idea for you. Um, yeah, it's ah it's a good thing to keep in mind.
06:54.38
Rick
Yeah, if you yeah exactly and and but even even saying that that idea is like there's a cost to it exactly um, cool. So yeah that that was a big win I I'm pretty like I think it's amazing. How contagious momentum is.
06:58.53
tylerking
Yeah, maybe you shouldn't say it at all. Yeah.
07:09.36
tylerking
Um, yeah.
07:11.45
Rick
Um, I mean our partner meeting this month we have our partner meeting Tyler's a partner jz partner we we meet once a month to talk about the business and the tone was completely different this this partner meeting than the last part of meeting.
07:21.27
tylerking
Yeah I feel like the the one before it I felt good coming out of it but it was a lot of like brainstorming and this and that and the 1 this most recent one it was like okay when a customer says this what should I say back to him. You know it was very tactical and like.
07:34.27
Rick
Um.
07:36.58
tylerking
Okay, like stuff's happening there actual it actually the the title of our last episode was you can't optimize nothing. Our conversation was optimizing just based on these few meetings that he's had so far. It's it's optimizing that like you once you have something you have like much more concrete things to actually talk about So yeah, cool. Um.
07:46.94
Rick
I Agreed Yep, what about you.
07:56.20
tylerking
So I've I've kind of got 2 things to talk about but they they tie together. So it's probably going to be like 1 one big topic. Um, do you have more smaller updates you want to do first or should I dive in.
08:04.59
Rick
Yeah I have one that's that's small and um, it's it's just like I just want to call out like I kind of a win but it's also kind of sad I haven't had a drink in the month of July not a single alcoholic beverage. Yeah.
08:18.13
tylerking
Um, I think most people would be like congrats that's good. You're not trying to cut out alcohol ah isn't that what your commutes for Rick.
08:22.55
Rick
But it's not because of it I'm like I'm not going to drink. It's because I don't have time I Just don't have time to drink like and it's because of this new baby like two kids is rap brownbagging it. Well yeah brownbagging if you're the passenger in a limousine works. But I'm not there yet.
08:32.71
tylerking
I'm kidding I'm kidding I'm kidding Ah don't don't don't drink and drive kids.
08:40.35
tylerking
Um, yeah.
08:42.20
Rick
Ah, so but no I like but I haven't had a drink of twenty days and I just just like actually feel better as a result so it's actually a good thing. Um, but I I never really have felt this way in my life where I don't have time to drink.
08:55.33
tylerking
Yeah, well and presumably or time to do any number of other things like I assume drinking. The only thing you're missing out on here. You're just like staring at the whiskey bottle like ah yeah.
09:07.72
Rick
Yeah I don't have time to even think about it. So anyway, just that's ah, a short little I Guess it's ah it's not a complaint necessarily. It's just like ah I just like Wow Two kids is way harder than one.
09:11.96
tylerking
Well let me oh.
09:18.82
tylerking
Okay, so that's that's a takeaway let me just because you brought this up. Let me ah you know belabor it a little bit. Um I don't you're not on Twitter as much or maybe at all as I am um. There's like it seems like there's kind of this movement of ah founder type people on Twitter um, a very antirinking movement right now. Um, which probably overall is good like you never want to be on the side of like everyone should drink more you know, but also as someone who enjoys ah you know I probably have a drink. But I have multiple drinks once or twice a week is probably how I would frame it. Ah I enjoy it quite a bit and I'm also seeing all this stuff and I'm like well. but but I I want to I want to keep I have fun I want to keep doing that. Yeah.
09:59.38
Rick
Okay.
10:03.29
tylerking
And I feel like there's this like if you if you want to be as high performance as you possibly can never ever have a drink ever then now I'm realizing like yeah I guess I don't want to be that high performance I don't know.
10:10.85
Rick
Um.
10:16.62
Rick
I I always think about um is it Naval is that his name the Angel list founder. Um, he's got some really interesting like principles and one of the things that he talks about is like if you're like don't try to optimize like just focus on leverage points.
10:22.99
tylerking
Um.
10:30.59
tylerking
Um, yeah, love that.
10:32.70
Rick
And what what you're what you're calling out is like if if cutting out drinking entirely is like is is is like what I need to do to to squeeze an extra hour of productivity day it a't for me, you'd rather find like you know you'd rather like find some other way to like blow up your entire. You know day and and get better. Get a better day.
10:50.12
tylerking
Um, I kind of feel this way with Health in general I feel like a lot of founders get I don't know they get bored and like need something to do and they're like I am going to be in peak physical shape and I'm just like that sounds so tedious Like. Just like like the way you can prematurely optimize anything in business I feel like I'm going to do what I need to to feel good right now and like yeah I'm probably going to need to exercise as I get older more than I do now because like my body's going to start to break down but it hasn't yet and I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts you know.
11:22.14
Rick
Yeah, it's It's the same thing exactly yeah go to your thing that was my small thing.
11:24.22
tylerking
Anyway, ah, um, all right? She go to my thing. Ah ok so I said last time that we were rethinking this kind of viral loop project. We had 1 called event invites that we're going to do and it got less interesting. And so now we're thinking about building web forms. Um, and this is still very early on in talking but like we're kind of in that brainstorming phase where there's no such thing as a bad idea like just and and different people. do it differently but what I like to do is think like really big. You know 5 ten year vision ah to see if we like how it feels. And then if you do then the next step is okay well what can we actually realistically plan right now. So I'm in this like allowing myself to think big phase right now. Um, and I've just got 2 kind of product things to talk about. I don't know if this is going to work I always feel weird talking product on the podcast because like no one knows how my product works so like will this actually will anyone relate to this but here goes so first of all, yeah, the the main feature is web forms which is something like Google forms or whatever you know there's survey monkey whatever and because our customers will send it to their customers. Um, and we're trying to think like what could we do to make it useful like more useful than just using some other tool and connecting it zapier and one thing we were talking with is like when you submit a form being able to trigger a bunch of different options actions in the crm. So at a task this contact create a group at another task for thirty days out whatever um
12:54.10
tylerking
First of all, do you use pipe drive. Do do they have this. Do you use anything like this.
12:58.25
Rick
I would I I use webflow forms um to trigger zapier stuff. But ah but I you know? um I yeah so I'm not but I'm not your target customer.
13:07.40
tylerking
Yeah, so you'd have absolutely no problem hooking this up with no code tools. But exactly yeah, um, everything we're talking about doing you could in theory do with zapier like web web forms were built for zapier zapier is only good at 1 way pushes. Ah.
13:18.67
Rick
Are.
13:23.45
tylerking
A person triggers it with filling out a web form. You push the data in the crm and then you trigger other actions very very easy to set that up. But yeah, our customers aren't necessarily capable of doing that um other thoughts. Yeah.
13:32.10
Rick
Yeah, so like I but but I would I could see yeah I see value and I mean I would assume that your customer probably doesn't have a marketing automatmation platform. They probably don't use zapier. Um, they that you they're probably you know if you could give them an easy way to collect. People's information.
13:44.54
tylerking
Um, ah.
13:49.98
Rick
Via a form and embed that into their existing less knowing serum workflows that'll be huge.
13:55.56
tylerking
Yeah, um, and I don't think it's the thing is we have we have so many different things already. We have tasks we have groups we we can't send emails yet but that is on the roadmap anyway. So we will have that at some point um that like. Just gluing them together where to say when you submit a form do some of these things doesn't seem like that big of a project but then that led to okay so if we could do that we basically have 0 automation at all in the crm by automation I mean like when a thing happens trigger. This other thing you know we have zapier you can. Like literally some people use zapier to trigger a trigger happens in lessening serum and then the action also happens in lessening serum like they use zapier to fake automation for us. But it's like if we built this for web forms should we just build our first round of automation while we're at it. So like I'm on a contact I push a button create these 3 tasks at this group. Send them an email or I update the status from 1 thing to another you know, same idea so that okay, that's interesting I think I assume you're not going to tell me that's not.
14:54.11
Rick
Ah.
15:00.90
Rick
I'm not I mean I guess like do you have any analysis on like who could use this today.
15:03.86
tylerking
Um, yeah I mean most crms do this? Um, just we don't Well, we wouldn't charge more for this to be clear. No yeah, those who just go in.
15:06.79
Rick
I mean like customers like you have like do you have a group of like 20 customers who would pay for this today. Are you? oh oh really this would just go in.
15:19.66
tylerking
Just I don't want to get into the the business of I know last time I said maybe we would like only offer a certain feature for $15 users versus 10 um because our people who signed up more than three years ago pay us less ah setting. That aside though I'm not really interested in having like multiple tiers if I can avoid it.
15:38.70
Rick
So so um, what's the scope difference between just like doing forms and then just doing like ah ah.
15:46.60
tylerking
Um, yeah, this is the hard thing. Um, and so this conversation's going to like branch off and into a bunch of places so I don't know how this will go but basic webforms I think is very very easy. But that doesn't include like these actions that get triggered at the end. It doesn't include the ability to embed it in a website. It would be like a standalone form like how Google forms works like a very very simple kind of Mvp type thing I don't know like a month of work. Maybe um.
16:11.41
Rick
Is there.
16:13.34
tylerking
But then there's years that you could build on top to make it actually competitive with other form tools.
16:18.10
Rick
But that's you know so every time we talk about something like this the the the general advice is ah Nvp it see if people actually use it and then make the next decision. So what's your skateboard. What's the.
16:26.92
tylerking
Man.
16:32.96
tylerking
Well okay, a ah hundred percent and I want to talk about that I want to talk about that. But I don't think that the way to interpret that advice is like don't even think further than that I again I think think 5 years in the future come up with a vision and then test the vision right.
16:35.41
Rick
Yeah.
16:46.13
Rick
Agreed agree. So Mike here's my question I guess it's more specific is like what is the minimum version of this that would actually get people using this that would allow you to optimize on top of that versus like versus like overengineering this thing and maybe never actually releasing it.
16:58.19
tylerking
yeah so yeah I was talking this about this with people today I think the very most basic version. Is you you have a page that lists all your forms so you can basically the database has a forms table. Um. You can create forms. We already have a feature for custom fields for like adding it to contacts and pipelines. So basically whatever custom fields we already have like you can build a form with those custom fields. Um, they can optionally push to contact or company records in the crm but they don't have to you could potentially collect data that. Doesn't go anywhere. It. It just stays in the form basically um so the settings to so to create a form with fields that's not a big project at all. That's very simple when someone and then a public page that anyone can go to so url for each form they can go to it fill it out. Ah pretty simple. And then when they submit it basically just throw that on the contact record and and push the data to the right fields. Um, that's that's what I was getting out with like that 1 maybe 2 developers working on it for one month can ship a ah, pretty decent thing like that.
18:03.53
Rick
And if you were just going to do you have any sort of Automations built currently like is there any way to configure like I want when this happens I want this to happen and if you're just going to look at that without forms. How would how much would it take to build like a very basic like if this than this.
18:10.67
tylerking
No nothing like that.
18:19.28
tylerking
Yeah, so I think the the first version of that is nothing triggers it you trigger it manually. So like you go to a contact and say you know well let me pause the number 1 use case here. Ah for automations is actually people ask all the time for a different feature. Because they don't know to ask for this. They ask for task templates they're like when I add a lead I want to create 5 tasks to like keep following up with them and I have to do it manually every time. So I think the the Mvp of automations is you can create you can. Quote unquote run an automation on a contact and that will just create as many tasks as you've like again, there's an automations table you create an automation you say in this automation I want this test this test this task and it adds it to the contact and that's it. That's the only thing you can do. That's probably the Mvp there.
19:07.77
Rick
I mean from my perspective automation seems closer to existing workflows closer to existing use cases. So I would I would go there first? Um, um.
19:15.31
tylerking
Well, but it doesn't have the viral thing The the goal here is not to make the product better for our customer I mean I feel terrible saying that we have we have other we have other projects going on to make the bulk actions is what our customers want. We're building that we're building the thing they want. This is a growth project.
19:27.70
Rick
Ah, yeah.
19:35.10
tylerking
But where I'm kind of leaning here is I think Automations could be the next customer happiness one so we could build web forms side by side with automat because our goal is to at any given time be working a growth thing and a customer happiness thing automations wasn't on the list but it pairs so nicely with web forms. So that's what we're thinking.
19:46.70
Rick
I like it.
19:53.20
Rick
I Think building Web forms is a great idea. So I just I look I'm look I was looking at the um pipe drive ah feature list and I don't see anything on here about forums.
20:02.86
tylerking
Um, yeah, that's what I thought to most crms have them I was surprised to see I don't they they at least don't advertise having it which is weird. They have like way more features than we do.
20:09.70
Rick
Um, yeah, they've got a bunch of add-ons like a lead booster. Add-on which is more around. Oh yeah, they do have web forms. It's called lead but they call a lead booster ad for add on and it starts at $32 per company per month.
20:26.10
Rick
Ah, and then ah Chatbot live chat prospector web forms and schedulers included in that.
20:35.45
tylerking
Oh like a calendar type thing. Okay, um, so yeah, it's funny I would never charge for this because again I mean maybe maybe it will end up being wrong in this viral thing just straight up doesn't work. But. Anything where you you want your customers to use it like I want my customers send out webforms if we had a scheduler I'd want them to send it out if we had invoicing I'd want them to send invoices. That's how you get in front of more people. It seems kind of crazy to me to charge more money for those things I I could see an argument for automations. We just That's not in our Dna to do that. But I get why companies do that? Um, okay, so to keep going done this so I'm pretty interested in webforms I'm pretty interested in automation for a long long time I've been I've wanted to do something with freemium and we've we've talked on this podcast about freemium before right.
21:03.42
Rick
Oh.
21:22.40
tylerking
Been a long time though I don't know.
21:23.60
Rick
Yeah, so freemium is you're giving away something in exchange like for usage and then you you grow on you use you turn that usage into valuable value for yourself either through upselling um or or some other lead generation opportunity.
21:38.87
tylerking
Yeah, but traditionally the emmium in freemium. The reason it's not just free is there's a paid tier. Um, and if I were starting a Sierra company today I would do it freemium where. There's like some very basic contact manager. You know you can have 500 contacts and maybe no pipelines like limited feature set but a lot of that's when someone's just starting business. We have a lot of people sign up for free trials and cancel and basically say love your product I'm just my business isn't ready that we don't need this yet and so we don't want to pay. But if we had that freemium thing. They'd start using us and then we get them later. The problem is if we well because it would cannibalize our revenue too much. Um, we have so many customers who are paying us like if you built that into your economic model from the beginning. The idea is yeah, a lot of customers who might otherwise pay you wouldn't because they can get away at the free version but it leads to so much additional growth that you actually end up.
22:09.77
Rick
Um, why don't you do that.
22:29.00
tylerking
Making more money. But if you already have revenue and you just say hey ah 20% of our customers. You don't have to pay us anymore. You take a huge revenue hit and then have to wait a long time for it to make itself back up and we just can't afford to do that I don't think does that make sense.
22:42.82
Rick
You just have to make the premium version. So bad that it's terrible. Yeah.
22:46.64
tylerking
I I've looked through our numbers and we have we have some customers who like I cannot come up with a ah, a usage model that would but but okay, that actually segues perfectly to my second point a problem with freemium is there's this tension between the paid and the free version. If The free version sucks the way you just said it doesn't actually help with growth because no one's going to sign up to use it. Um the free you want the free version for from a growth standpoint you want the free version to be as good as it can possibly be and then from a monetization standpoint you want the free version to be as bad as it can be so that people have to upgrade. And it's kind of hard to strike the right balance. That's like a really tricky problem right? So here's what we're thinking um forms could be a standalone product and it wouldn't be freemium. It would just be free.
23:21.70
Rick
I agree. Yep.
23:37.71
tylerking
Because the goal isn't to upsell someone to a paid forms product. The goal is to get is to increase awareness about lessening crm and monetize that way the outcome being like there like could we build a better forms tool than all the other ones out there probably not. Could we afford to offer a freeform tool that's better than the free tiers of other ones. Maybe that seems more achievable.
24:05.37
Rick
Yes, it does I like it. Why don't you buy this though? Yeah, like take that reform company. Um I don't know I Just like what if you could just go actually.
24:11.22
tylerking
Um, you like acquire a company this sounds hard.
24:22.77
Rick
Find a preconfigured like thing to test this versus built spin energy engine. It's probably more fun to build it though.
24:23.53
tylerking
Um, yeah I.
24:31.16
tylerking
Yeah, that part if I'm being totally honest part of it is it just it sounds more fun and every time I look at another It's like they use a totally different coding language and just like the the organizational complexity that gets added and like well what do you do with their employees. Um, and. Also the the goal here is not for this to be totally a standalone products like if you're a sierra user the forms are built in. It's not like you have to log into a different platform or something. Um, so the the hope is the first version of it is built in a lessening serum and then there's like ah you can have a free lessening serum account but it only does forms once it's good enough to have a anyway. You're probably right if I were a more aggressive risk taking Ceo that would probably be the right way to do it. It just sounds miserable. Have you ever at people keep did you ever acquire another company.
25:21.19
Rick
I'm I'm interested in like it would be interesting to go. There's got to be a ton of form builders out there that are like not making any money. Um, that are are good enough as as an Mvp starter that you could like I don't know.
25:26.75
tylerking
Yeah.
25:34.22
tylerking
But what let me? Yeah, yeah, that's another thing let me make an analogy here because we're as I've said before we're switching to Paddle for billing right now and like prior to that. So Paddle has all this like subscription logic. They handled all for you whereas blessoming serum like in the past we we coded all that like.
25:36.10
Rick
I Don't know how much time he saved though I don't I'm not an engineer.
25:51.80
tylerking
Handling free trial logic when is a free trial over what email do we send them I think we're going to spend more time implementing paddle than it would take to build a new billing system from scratch I and I mean maybe not I don't know but like if something's not that complicated and like a billing system for a product that only has one price is not that complicated.
26:00.63
Rick
Um.
26:11.25
tylerking
The the abstraction isn't as valuable and like the amount of work it would take to integrate someone else's product and and it wouldn't even be exactly what we want it to be I'm not sure it would be easier than building from scratch but a lot of people have said that before and been wrong like this is a classic trap. So I don't know. I Think it's It's a good.. It's a good instinct you have to to to acquire something.
26:32.65
Rick
Yeah, just it feels like this is like something that's been built 10000 times is its own business and there's probably like a bunch of things out there like go to indieacer.com and just like sort by form builders.
26:38.16
tylerking
Hundred percent
26:44.88
tylerking
Yeah, a different version of the same idea that I so today on hacker news someone launched like an open source. Ah actually someone launched an open source hererm yesterday but they launched an open source document signing like a docusign competitor and it did occur to me like forget acquiring someone like There's probably an open source form builder out there that would at least get us started. But so I might look at that. But again every time I use an open source tool like that I'm like the work of in it. It's such a simple thing to build the work of integrating it into our existing code might be more than just building it because we already have custom fields. We already have. All of this infrastructure around it built but I don't know yeah I'll think about that and and I'm definitely going to take a look at to see what's out there. What do you mean oh website chat you mentioned this last time too.
27:24.79
Rick
It's fair.
27:30.70
Rick
What about chat? yep.
27:39.13
tylerking
You like this idea I don't think I we've never our current customers have expressed no demand for this. Um, and I think in particular we aren't to help desk we are a crm and I I don't think like there's a natural integration between chat and crm the way like like where does the chat show up.
27:42.99
Rick
Ah, okay.
27:56.58
Rick
Well yeah, yeah, you So so so your your virality is going to come from your customers who come who who serve other businesses right? They're not going to come. It's not going to come from. Yeah so it would be interesting to look at.
27:57.59
tylerking
You know I would like to be an inbox at some point.
28:07.72
tylerking
Yes B to C does not help us correct.
28:15.60
Rick
The the customers who are are b 2 b and whether or not they're using your less knowing crm to track any sort of service-related recurring um things um, that would be interesting but like chat generally ah the way I think you want to use it is.
28:29.20
tylerking
Ah.
28:34.35
Rick
Is going to be marketing oriented more so than service oriented. Um, it's going to be around like hey you're at top of funnel you're at the website like it's going to be about lead conversion like just like a form would be and that might be a easier way to go like if you could go find all the customers who are b 2 b that have a website that have forms on them.
28:37.66
tylerking
Um, yeah.
28:54.33
Rick
Don't have chat on them and just say hey you know you've got a form already. You've got this? Ah, what's at chat there I know there's open source chat stuff out there.
28:59.77
tylerking
Um, yeah.
29:05.37
tylerking
Yeah, might oh yeah for sure. Oh you're saying just take an open source one. Yeah I hear you um my instinct is to say that.
29:17.56
tylerking
So I mentioned I I think last time I mentioned the framework reason to think about these viral things as effort impact and volume did I say that on the podcast. It's hard to predict volume and as a reminder for people volume being like how many other people How many guests will call them people who are not customers of ours see.
29:22.93
Rick
Yeah, yeah.
29:36.28
tylerking
Us because our our customers send them this whether it be an embedded chat a form they send them Whatever it's hard to predict volume but a big part of it is how many of our customers would use it. Um, my instinct is not a lot would use chat.
29:55.48
tylerking
A lot of them. Don't even have websites.
29:56.83
Rick
And I can use forms either then.
29:59.12
tylerking
Well no, these are not embedded forms these are standalone like Google forms and the the difference is people people ask about forms all the time. Yeah.
30:05.38
Rick
Oh so these are forms that would have their own standalone page that you okay that changed I was thinking of this from my perspective which is I would embed this in our website this is a standalone page. Yes, but this is totally different. This is so much this is like a Google survey tool.
30:16.23
tylerking
I think we would add that eventually. Yeah exactly ah Google forms. Yeah I think like phase 2 is make an embeddable one. But I think embedding is harder. So.
30:23.51
Rick
Don't case so you're basically competing with Googles Google forms. Oh oh, no, no, no, no, no, this is way more interesting. Well just because I know how powerful Google forms are and how I could use a Google form once a week if i.
30:33.86
tylerking
Just because people have to come to our website.
30:42.86
Rick
If I wanted to like there's lots of use cases for that internally externally um ah Surveys ah booking you know rsdps? Um, anyway, it's.
30:54.24
tylerking
Yeah, and actually an interesting use case here is also um, this doesn't help with the viral thing with the growth but like um I think a lot of people use these forms within lessening serum so they'll be like I have different like customer intake methods and when a customer calls me instead of being like. Have to open up a contact and fill out the information then I have to attach a pipeline or whatever they can just be like fill out this one form and it does it all.
31:11.93
Rick
Okay, so sorry I was thinking about this as v 1 being embeddable forums on someone's website and now that I understand that this is for anyone to use to ah kind of like standardize data receipt for any use case than I am now like.
31:29.23
tylerking
Um, okay, cool and and just to make sure I understand the difference because we we are definitely talking about embedded forms as well. Um, but to make sure I understand why this is more interesting. It's because an embedded form has like 1 use case. It's like I want to take leads in on my website.
31:30.67
Rick
Totally unboard this yeah.
31:45.90
tylerking
That's it whereas this one has oh, it's a Tuesday and I just want to know something about my customers I'm going to blast out an email and send him a link to this.
31:53.51
Rick
Yeah, universe it. It has to do with them. You said ah volume impact and effort. Yeah, so ah, ah, volume. It seems like this is like high volume like lots of like it's It's more throw away. It's less permanent. It's more like ah.
31:55.82
tylerking
Impact effort. Go.
32:02.65
tylerking
Because there's more types of forms. Yeah ok, cool that that's exactly I and I.
32:10.23
Rick
And don't know it's more like Google forms and like it's just yeah, it's a branded version of Google form. That's probably you're going to be able to make it look nicer.
32:21.16
tylerking
Yeah, and like way you like you know what's so stupid. Ah about Google forms because I use them all the time you have to like hunt to figure out a way to have it email you when someone fills out the form. We're just going to have. We're just going to have a toggle on the form. That's that will default to being on.
32:30.85
Rick
Yeah, it's a way. Ah, it's a way too complicated.
32:36.96
tylerking
By default you'll get an email when someone fills out the form I think that alone might be enough for our customers to be like amazing. You have a feature that as far as they know Google doesn't even offer. Okay, so yeah, do that and then your any thoughts on the free thing like. I I tend to get really excited about this but I'm kind of like let's build Mvp into our app and assuming it gets any traction at all and it seems to be working. Let's try to make a standalone free like less annoying forms. Product.
33:06.98
Rick
Yeah, this is like the the lightest weight stayal alone product that I've seen that seems like a nobrainer for people to to use and then yeah, if people start like oh where did I get this form from less serum. Oh I can sign up to send these forms too cool. Yeah, that's man yes I like it.
33:22.60
tylerking
Cool I'm glad to hear that this this is yes so I mean a you're you're giving more more confidence that like the thing I'm excited about I'm allowed to be excited about but it also like the confusion you had.
33:25.69
Rick
Was this helpful to you.
33:37.52
tylerking
You're probably I've probably explained this to people internally at the company and they had the same confusion. So this is helping me like figure out how to talk about it which is helpful.
33:44.29
Rick
Yeah I guess forms are the right word to use but this is much more like Google forms like I would just use Google forms as the analogy and less about like this is not a reform competitor. This is a Google forms competitor. This is not a ah.
33:49.32
tylerking
Here We go farness.
34:01.20
Rick
Jot form competitor. This is a Google like this is a um, a kind of a survey a monkey competitor. Yeah qualtrics. Yeah no, no, that's exactly right? This is you're building qualtrics for s and b's and that is way more interesting and.
34:03.76
tylerking
Well like a qualtrics compete I mean qualtrics is a million features obviously. But.
34:15.80
tylerking
Qualtrics for recipes. Okay I like that a lot because every time I've said qualtrics before I'm like except why like none of our customers want qualtrics and yeah.
34:23.43
Rick
Yeah, well, you're you're building survey monkey like that it was ah intended to be but then it got ruined like you're building. Ah yeah, you're building simple sort like Surveys is too so too narrow. Um, but it's it's much more about research and it's much more about intake than like what most people think of as.
34:40.77
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool. Yeah.
34:41.30
Rick
Forums and marketing in a marketing department. It's about data ah data like yeah about data gathering data at scale like more efficient data gathering.
34:52.66
tylerking
It's so funny. We just had you know once a year we survey our customers but like based on when they signed up so it's they're constantly coming in and today we got a response and you know we ask? What could we do better and the the he wrote a really long, not really long, but pretty long explanation saying. But I do is I go into client like sites and do various types of audits and when I do an audit I need to like confirm I did this I did this I did this and there's like 20 different types of audits I can do and I do multiple ones for the same client I just want like a form that I can just attach to a contact record. And I might even do the same form multiple times I just to indicate what I did on this visit and I read that and I was like yes, that's what we're talking about building here.
35:32.75
Rick
This has so many different broad use cases that like I like this a lot and you'll learn so much from getting people to start using it and then also like like pairing pairing like oh that workflow matches with this use case or this feature like let's add a little bit here.
35:52.28
tylerking
Cool. So I think yeah to so to summarize all this I think our product roadmap has taken a pretty dramatic turn recently both because we went from event invites to forms. But also we're talking about the free thing and we're talking about automation and like between all those it's It's just like a completely different. You know next.
35:52.59
Rick
And it you know connects to that. It's like that one. He just said yeah I like it a lot.
36:12.19
tylerking
6 to twelve month kind of vision for us. So I'm I'm stoked for it.
36:16.23
Rick
I'm curious like I just went to your integration page and I can see that it looks like you do have Google forms integrated through zapier already. Um, so like why should someone use this compared with Google forms like what's your what's your pitch.
36:23.25
tylerking
Yeah.
36:31.46
tylerking
Yeah, first of all most of our customers don't use zapier. They'd have to at least sign up for a free count but very likely pay for a zapier account. Um, but it's it's I think really just all about complexity google forms is more complex than what we make and then you add on the zapier layer to it.
36:34.71
Rick
Um.
36:46.15
tylerking
I think our power users we we actually we had a brainstorm about this today and we're like the top 20% of power users for forms. We're going to tell them go use reform go use Google yeah, you know there's a lot of better tools out there if you need all these features but you know if you just need the if you need the less annoying forms here. It is.
37:05.28
Rick
Less knowing such a good brand for your target audience. It's like so good.
37:05.97
tylerking
Right? It feels like such a waste that we're 14 years in and we've never taken advantage of like less annoying blank. So that's enough but I was talking with bracking about this day like both of us are like this is like this is proof if we do this is evidence that we can like.
37:13.64
Rick
Yeah.
37:23.70
tylerking
Take risks and try new things. We haven't done that in a long time and part of me is just like let's even if it fails like let's prove to ourselves. We're capable of this still so cool. Um, yeah back to you What else.
37:32.90
Rick
Yep, let's see I got 2 kind of meaty topics here but I kind of want to I'll save them for the next time we talk because I think they'll but thisll be here. What 1 thing that. Is interesting kind of related to what we just talked about ah is um, move we can. We've we've talked a little bit about engineering as marketing at leg up and right now like 1 thing we're building is um when when we have this consumer sign up flow. We've we've migrated ah, from our no-code app to the app that Tyler built so consumers are are signing up every day adding their policies but what they what they can't do is flag themselves ah as a business owner and like start an organizational offering and invite team members. Um, and so we we see an opportunity to create some. product- led ah growth opportunities or at least lead generation opportunities through that offering and that's something Tyler's working on right now. Um, but but you know just maybe you and I can brainstorm a little bit like of ideas on how we could support jd um in his momentum in terms of ah.
38:39.89
tylerking
Um, yeah.
38:43.45
Rick
Of of providing you know more immediate value on an automatic basis that could help him get increases response rates and and and you know get more meetings booked any interest in that.
38:54.80
tylerking
I've always wanted. Yeah, definitely I don't necessarily have any good ideas but let's do it I I've always wanted to do engineering as marketing for less annoying I've just never come up with a good idea for it. Um, but this seems like a much. Leg up health is in the health care space and when I think engineering is marketing I think calculator right? or or some kind of like like like the perfect example of this is a mortgage calculator like hey how much am I going to have to pay per month for my mortgage put in these 10 numbers and and we'll tell you? um. I have never been able to come up with one of those for a crm but health healthcare seems like health insurance seems like it might have opportunities for this.
39:32.37
Rick
Yeah, so if we I think there's there's 2 target customers here. 1 is the I think we want to stay focused on the small business owner entrepreneur Utah person ah Persona um, and so. Like with that in mind there's kind of 2 directions. We can go if they're on marketplace we can sort of push them to this like but health health insurance checkup um type thing like you know, go through this you know, spend 5 minutes today to give yourself peace of mind for the rest of the year
39:57.38
tylerking
Um, ah.
40:05.14
Rick
Um, or like you know, maybe maybe there's something we can do to to help you um and and we basically have them like give us permission to like go import their policy and do like some It's basically an excuse for jd to output like we we like automate the gathering of like consent and. It's not as like aggressive as creating an account maybe um, but it's like hey like we're going to gather information from you. Um, and then Jd is going to take that information and then put together like ah ah, ah, an analysis of your health insurance plan and there's like a couple of things that people might be interested in 1 is. Ah, you know is there any way for me to save money on premium you know today like in and the lever there is the premium tax credit right? Like maybe we can increase your income or decrease your income. Maybe we can add household members. Maybe we can switch plans to a different more affordable plan. The second is um, ah doctor coverage like. You know? are you sure like who are your doctors are they covered what hospital would you go to if you had an emergency like that's a question we could ask you know what what.
41:04.53
tylerking
I Love the idea of just sorry to interrupt just like fill these things in and print this out so in an emergency you know what to do something really simple like that.
41:12.16
Rick
Yeah, and so like what what the number 1 thing that we see with existing customers who enroll through us is they they buy a dental plan assuming that their dentist takes that dental insurance and then they go to the dentist the first time and they're like wait.
41:26.21
tylerking
In.
41:30.47
Rick
My this. My just doesn't take this insurance and they're like pissed and so like just like hey like let it before you the the number 1 reason for you know medical we could letch probably the number 1 reason for like health insurance. Nasty surprises is going to a doctor going to a hospital go to the er and. Learning after you had service that they were not in your network put in your you know, upload your insurance card and tell us who your your preferred providers are and we'll check we'll double check this for you? Um, ah so that you're not surprised later something like that.
41:55.38
tylerking
Um, yeah.
42:05.12
tylerking
Okay, so I think all these seem valuable once you've got someone there a thing with engineering is marketing I think is it's meant to kind of I don't want to say generate demand but it's meant to capture demand that's out there meaning it's not like someone's already on our website and then we use this to. Provide value to them. It's like they Google the thing we want to be the number one result um I think I mean I could imagine it working in any number of ways. But.
42:26.21
Rick
Okay. What I'm thinking is like Jd's doing outbound. Let's just say he's doing 20 outreaches a day. What's the thing that he has is like sort of like the oh you're not ready for a call right now like you should definitely do this like you know, make sure you you fill out our you know this this thing.
42:41.88
tylerking
Okay, so I I hear you.
42:47.76
Rick
That's that's that's what I was thinking with this one but but but I would love to have something that's like you know website greater.com that hubspot came up with which was brilliant.
42:52.60
tylerking
Right? that's that's I mean when I hear engineers mighting. That's what I think of but I think this all qualifies. So for the the stuff you were just talking about I guess my question is like do we even need engineering for that like can Jd not say hey if you're not ready to commit I can I can do a little legwork for you right now. Okay.
43:08.60
Rick
Yes, yes yeah.
43:12.45
tylerking
And then I think that's a good place to start and then if people are saying yes a lot then we can say all right? Let's build a tool for this? yeah.
43:16.57
Rick
How do we? How do we automate jd how do we make how do we make it yeah that's exactly right? So yeah, so that's engineering supporting sales which requires an Mvp to be sort of offered by sales and delivered on and then you know sort of your capacity increase engineering is a capacity increaser in that case.
43:34.42
tylerking
Um, yeah.
43:36.60
Rick
Not ah, a deal. Not a lead Gen ah, let's shift to the lead generation conversation which I think is actually a little bit more interesting. Um you you were saying something about okay, what what would like? Do you have any ideas here for us like work. Yeah, okay, good.
43:39.33
tylerking
Okay.
43:47.46
tylerking
Yeah I I think so but let me start by saying I think if we wanted to do this in a rigorous way. We'd go into an Seo tool like a tras or whatever and we'd see what are people googling for because if no one's searching for it like just having a tool out there like I've I've complained to you before I hate marketing. But you have to market. So for. For example, ah, a lot of people who I really respect and trust have told me I own the domain name more annoying crmum.com and they've been like you should build something out of that and just do this funny marketing site and I think they're right except then like. Now I have to go market that website and how do I get people to ever see it. You know and I don't like that so like step one I'd say is like let's try and capture existing demand and do an Seo play here as opposed to trying to like build something that no one will naturally see on their own.
44:38.93
Rick
Okay, so like how would you go about that. What would you type into Hrefs or the keyword explorer to to figure that out Health insurance.
44:46.65
tylerking
Yeah, it's yeah I get I we'd probably I think probably the way to do it is brainstorm ideas and then test the hypo like it's not going to tell us the answer but we can We can brainstorm ideas and then go up there and be like are the are these keywords that people actually search for um.
45:00.89
Rick
Is my doctor covered duck. You know that could be.
45:04.56
tylerking
That yeah that that's almost certainly yeah now people might be searching for like does Dr Phillips accept Humano 1 or whatever. Um, and then there's a programmatic seo play here of like making. Yeah.
45:17.19
Rick
Taking all the doctors putting me on the website. Yeah.
45:22.96
tylerking
Um, so that's one you talked about saving money on Premium tax credits and stuff like how much information do we need to know to like tell somebody like is it. We just need to know your income the size of your family.
45:39.34
tylerking
And what you pay for like like what are the variables we would need to know to be able to tell someone like hey you're leaving money on the table with premium tax credits because you're not, You're not using them.
45:47.66
Rick
You need their household size. Ah their and their income. Um, and then you need to know what plan they bought if they so they can either tell you like that information or like the most least amount of information we would need is. Basically a picture of their insurance card their birth date. Um and a ah and then like a a um, a checkbox that says I authorize you to pull my application from health card I gov. And then alphagota Gov would give us all that information.
46:25.62
tylerking
Yeah, we can't do that in real time though, right? like Jd would have to go do that manually.
46:32.68
Rick
Not not unless you were you wanted to build an integration with healthlk care I go which is possible. Um, but like not yeah yeah, the the source of this information is health care I got.
46:36.34
tylerking
We wouldn't take the picture of the insurance card for that though, right, they'd have to fill in the actual fields or we'd have to do ocr to pull pull text out. Yeah, okay.
46:49.14
Rick
Can't unless they're going to tell us what their premium their current pre dash script is and most people don't even know what that is so.
46:52.99
tylerking
But they could tell us the plan if if household size income and what plan they have feels like easier to enter than take uploading a photo.
46:59.52
Rick
The plan is actually not what I'm trying to get from them. It's their. It's their. That's their name Sir It's their legal name. So so so so the the manual workflow to look someone up on Healthcare Gov is you have to know.
47:05.13
tylerking
Are.
47:12.11
tylerking
Um, what do you look? yeah.
47:19.49
Rick
Their ah birth date and their first and last name and then their state. Um, and so if you and then that's so that's the you have to have the legal name.
47:24.41
tylerking
Um, but what what? what information do you need to know if to decide what their premium tax credits could be.
47:34.58
Rick
Ah, you need their um zip code. You need their ah household size. Um, and you need their um ah annual household income. And those 3 things and then you also need to know you need you need a data source that says the lowest household income the lowest in there you need to know what the premium was for the second lowest cost silver plan in their zip code area which could be pulled from publicly available data which we have actually.
48:06.10
tylerking
Um.
48:10.37
Rick
Um, available like in our database.
48:11.30
tylerking
Um, okay so it's I mean it's maybe possible for the calculator to just say give us the answers these questions and we'll just spit out an answer for you.
48:19.52
Rick
Um, yeah, there actually are premium tax credits calculators out there as examples. Um, ah so like like the Irs has one. This is here's an example so we could actually do this the Kaiser family family foundation has probably the best 1 but the hardest thing is is knowing.
48:24.50
tylerking
Okay.
48:38.35
Rick
Ah, for that zip code that they put in or it's actually at the county level within because some zip code spam up will county. So for that county. Ah you know for that county but for for Utah like we're actually pretty simple because we only build this for Utah and so there's not many counties and so you could actually but then it's like oh you have to know their age too. Sorry.
48:44.75
tylerking
Um, god.
48:58.36
Rick
Um, so it's okay, let me back up, you need to know their household size and then you need to know ages and of every single one of their household members. So you have to like kind of build this like Census bottom up census of their household and then you you go get the rate um of that second lowest call Silver plan based on.
49:07.38
tylerking
Um, okay.
49:17.63
Rick
The the county that they're in and then the the age and size of the household.
49:23.42
tylerking
Okay, so this is doable. We should probably have it on the list. Having said that like are people googling this and yeah, like ah maybe it's worth brainstorming more things on top of this. Um, but okay that type of thing though feels like what we should. They're not.
49:33.27
Rick
Yeah, definitely Google in this I don't think so I mean I can look it up.
49:41.17
tylerking
Yeah, so what are they I think the like does is my doctor covered thing probably is more honestly so engineering as marketing is normally a separate category from programmatic seo there at least I hear them described as kind of 2 separate marketing channels but they're kind of. Blended together in a sense and you've done some programmatic Seo where if I recall correctly you collected a bunch of data on health insurance plans and you basically have a page on leguphealth.com one for each plan. So if someone Googles that plan you're on the list of results.
50:14.17
Rick
Yep.
50:15.76
tylerking
That's another thing we should probably be considering with engineering is marketing is like can I take data that you've got you know you tell me here's an api Here's this here's that and I can just pipe a whole bunch of stuff into airtable like you could have done it with no code tools too. But you know I might be able to do it faster.
50:32.59
Rick
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Um, yeah I Guess I Guess um I think we need to think about my my takeaway here is I need to think about ah tangential questions. That people ask that we could potentially rank for and answer programmatically um and you know either by having like lots of long tail content or by having ah a dynamic form calculation. Real-time greater thing and I don't I don't necessarily know what that is yet. But.
50:53.98
tylerking
Um, yeah.
51:09.83
Rick
Um.
51:10.70
tylerking
Here's 1 more quick idea. Um I people I bet employers regularly Google how much does like group health insurance cost and the answer is always as far as I've seen because I have googled this before. It's a why don't you fill out.
51:18.73
Rick
Um.
51:26.46
tylerking
Shitloads of information and 1 of our insurance. Agents will get back to you I wonder if there's like a this is a no sign up like you don't even have to give us your email address. You don't have to give us like your employer identification number and stuff and we'll get you like. It won't even be a quote. It'll just be ah, a price range like a much much faster way to get a basic price range because I I'm confident people are googling that and I'm I know from experience what they're getting from Google is not a good answer.
51:45.14
Rick
Yeah.
51:54.60
Rick
Yeah, so rank like that I put that into a refs. It's a super hard keyword Highly competitive. So like we yeah people are all searching it but like getting ranked for it would be really really hard.
52:00.40
tylerking
Um, yeah, that makes sense.
52:07.22
tylerking
Yeah, having so I think one of the moves with engineering is marketing is people will link to you and like inbound links do help with Seo a whole lot. But you know if someone else writes a blog post about health insurance. They might use the calculator or something. But yeah. Ah, it's all hard. We. We probably can't really have this conversation in a meaningful way without um, having arefs open while we're doing it well okay I guess what I'm saying is maybe it's not a good podcast ah brainstorming session. But thank you anyone who made it through what we just talked about.
52:32.26
Rick
I've got it open. Ah.
52:42.80
Rick
Yeah, ah, cool, um, anything else. You want to talk about.
52:44.14
tylerking
But yeah, no I think I'm I'm normally I have like a bunch of little topics and I don't care about any of them and not not that I don't care but they're all like they're not meaty. What I love like I only had one real topic today. And it's because like I'm going super deep into this one thing it's been a long time since I've done that and um I bet. Oh so first of all, we're going to skip next Ah 2 2 weeks from now because we're both busy so the next episode will be a month from now I bet I don't have a ton of topics on either because I think I'm going to spend the whole time thinking about this the same one which which doesn't make for good. Podcasting but I'm really happy with that.
53:20.38
Rick
Um, it would be interesting. Next time we talk to talk about how to market this I know you're going to be thinking a lot about how to build the feature. But um, it would be interesting to maybe spend some time thinking about how to position it because that was the breakthrough I had today.
53:28.13
tylerking
Um.
53:32.61
Rick
Um, but like what are like all how how could we make market this thing ahead of time to generate like use cases.
53:37.50
tylerking
Yeah, especially the free tool because like it's got a whole separate marketing platform basically from from our other one like does it have its own standalone website or is it lesseningserum.com/formsthatyouknow there's lots of things to talk about there. So okay.
53:54.60
Rick
Definitely definitely all right? Well if you'd like to review past topics on show notes visit start to last dot com see you next time.
53:55.83
tylerking
Cool.
54:02.30
tylerking
Um, one month from now see. Yeah.