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Welcome to The 1909, the podcast that takes an in-depth look at The State News’ biggest stories of the week, while bringing in new perspectives from the reporters who wrote them.
It's Wednesday, January 29th, and this is the 19 09 State News Weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters. During fall semester, we had a lot of episodes in the 19 09 talking about the politics of campus, what people believe, how they wanted to vote in the upcoming election, what they were protesting. This week, something a little different, talking about politics actually coming for the university. At the state and federal level, it seems MSU is entangled in, all sorts of political battles now with all these new executive orders from the new Trump administration directly affecting the university and this looming threat of the Michigan governor's intervention in the university's governing board.
Alex:Yep. So here to tell us about all that, what you need to know about all these, you know, looming political actions that are affecting campus today is Owen McCarthy, our admin reporter.
Owen:Thanks so much for having me today.
Alex:Yeah. Great to have you back on the show. Yeah. So, you know, we're gonna get to the state level stuff with Whitmer, but let's actually start federal. Yeah.
Alex:You know, Trump is elected Mhmm. A couple weeks ago. I think most of us, there's the 19 or 9 are familiar with that. Yeah. It's big news.
Alex:And there was I I I think definitely, you know, he talked so much on the campaign trail about higher education. A lot of things that he seemed to not like about the sector. And so I think there's kind of a palpable anxiety amongst some in MSU about, like, okay, how is he gonna actually act on that? Is he gonna really work to to change this place to reform it?
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:And, you know, I had talked to Kevin Gaskowitz a couple weeks ago at the start of the semester about this, and he said that, you know, this is something the administration is feeling. We're worried about it. We're thinking about it. But it was only a couple days ago that he actually announced kind of a concrete okay. You're hearing about this national political stuff.
Alex:This is what I'm gonna do to, you know, my campus to get ready for it. Tell me about, what did he tell students that he's doing?
Owen:Yeah. So he did yep. He he kinda teased this in in his interview with with you actually and talked about these tiger teams. It's a military term for background, you know, experts with a variety of backgrounds who kinda come together to address a specific issue. And then he sort of, you know, very formally, I think when he and MSU started to sense people are probably, like, what's going on?
Owen:All this Trump stuff, how's it going to affect us? He sends out this email to campus, and this was on Friday. And specifically, this email is addressing, quote, strong concerns regarding potential changes to federal laws, policies, and regulations that were enacted under Trump, in the early days of his, presidency, and I guess also sort of thinking that more is to come that we need to be prepared for. And so he says, last week, we set in motion a leadership response process to coordinate the careful and timely review and assessment of the emerging changes and try to understand what they may mean for our students, faculty, staff, admissions around research, teaching, and outreach, and engagement. And then specifically, you know, he says that these rapid response teams are focusing on campus life, international students and scholars, research, teaching, and financial and tax policy implications.
Owen:And so, you know, that that emphasis on international students, for example, that's one of these things of, you know, obviously, there's speculation about there with, you know, Trump's plans for mass deportations. How might this affect, you know, students who are here at MSU who may be undocumented international students? You know, this is one of these things that we don't know yet. We don't know exactly what Trump is going to do. But then, you know, with something like financial and tax policy implications, well, as recording this just a couple hours ago, you know, the Trump administration announced a well, I guess they didn't announce it.
Owen:It was sort of leaked, but it's now known that, you know, there is a federal freeze on all, federal grant and and and loans as well. There's a there's a freeze on all that stuff. Right? And so now that's one of these things where like MSU, for example, is right now thinking, you know, some of our money that funds our research, it's gonna be drying up here at least temporarily. Right?
Owen:And so, Guswitz is basically saying, hey, we're all getting together, you know, these Tiger teams with a bunch of, you know, great minds here at MSU, and and we're talking about this stuff and how we respond and how we prepare. And that's pretty much, you know, as as far as they're going at this moment to sort of assuage some of these concerns and fears.
Alex:And the way that that he described it to me was, like, he told me that his quote was, I'm a big believer in role playing. He said that these are, like, tabletop games. Yeah. Yeah. They're gonna map out, like, okay, if Trump does this, we'll do that.
Alex:Right. And if, you know, the Department of Ed does this, we're gonna respond this way. And I think that's what they're going through with some of these, like, questions about research funding and immigration that are yet to, like, play out materially on campus. But what, you've been reporting on this week that I think is especially interesting is that, like, if they're doing role play around those issues, this issue of DEI, this is already happening happening. MSU is already being affected by these executive orders that Trump is signing.
Alex:Tell me about, first, you know, before Trump actually took targeted action against MSU, tell me about, you know, there was this event you wrote about Mhmm. That was changed even ahead of that. MSU kind of scrambling with these diversity, equity, inclusion policies that have historically or I mean, historically, in the last, like, 5, 10 years, been important to the university, try to figure out how that exists when you have a president who is saying that that's the worst thing in the world and he wants to get rid of it.
Owen:Yeah. Exactly. So exactly. When when people were getting a sense from the campaign trail and what he was saying is that, like, we're gonna be looking at DEI. Right?
Owen:And we're not just gonna be looking at it with the federal government. We're we're looking at it everywhere. You know, MSU vote, which is a university sanctioned program, nonpartisan committee, that's supposed to get students out to vote and sort of inform people. You know, they say, let's get together, and this is this is before Trump even took office when when there's when they're coming up with these plans. Obviously, after he'd been elected and we knew that he would be the president, but they get together and say, let's get, you know, our administrators, you know,
Owen:our chief diversity officer,
Owen:Jabbar Bennett, our associate VP for diversity officer, Jabbar Bennett, our associate VP for federal relations, Sarah Walter, and then the director of federal relations, Jacob Corville. These people who are, you know, should be be knowing these issues and the implications very intimately. Let's have a panel discussion with them that's open to our community, and we're gonna call it the future of DEI policy at MSU. They had this in the works. They had started kind of promoting it, and then even well, and then let's say there's a sort of shift where Trump on his first day signs an executive order, that specifically is talking about, you know, ending, halting all DEI programs, policies in the federal government and federal agencies, but basically immediately, you know, people Nobody
Alex:was working in his administration, like in the executive departments
Owen:Exactly.
Alex:Doing the, he and stuff on day 1.
Owen:Exactly. Well and then and then shortly after that, the news came out that that all those people had been, you know, emailed and put on immediately leave, paid leave, but, you know, they're being laid off. And so this is very real. It it was narrowly focused on the federal government, but right away, people were like, is this a signal of what's to come? People specifically were saying, could this have a chilling effect on, you know, higher education, for example.
Alex:There's a This DEI kind of comes from higher education.
Owen:It does.
Alex:Right? Like this Absolutely. Grows out of academic spaces in the last especially since 2020 has become common more in, like, the corporate world and government and the military and whatnot. But, like, higher ed, I think, maybe has the most robust DEI infrastructure just because those ideas came from academics.
Owen:Absolutely. And so, you know, for example, one thing I sort of noticed was both the people who who support DEI and those who don't, unanimously, were kinda like, okay. This executive order seems like a sign for what's to come.
Owen:Mhmm.
Owen:And, you know, there is this conservative, activist and journalist named Christopher Rufo, who's very vocal opponent of DEI, who said, you know, tomorrow morning, general counsel for corporations and universities across the country will be reviewing their DEI policies to make sure that, you know, federal civil rights lawyers aren't down there aren't aren't down their throat or whatever. And so that reaction was sort of immediate, you know. And then Wednesday comes along of that week after this had been, you know, after MSU's DEI policy at MSU panel was scheduled and after Trump had this, you know, chilling effect, executive order that he signed.
Alex:Well, Ruffo is the very influential kind of person on this within even within Trump's circle is, like Yeah. Saying, like, yeah, this only affects the federal government, but you should Yeah. Believe that this is a sign of what's to come, and you should, you know, stop your stuff if you're a general counsel of the university.
Owen:Yeah. Exactly. And so after this has happened, MSU, and this is what our reporting shows, MSU vote again was circulating this sort of promotional material about this event and said, you know, yeah, there's been these executive orders, you know. It said, President Trump has started his term by signing a series of sweeping executive orders. These EOs signal the administration's priorities and have implications for many American institutions, including higher education.
Owen:The invite as the invite asked people to join the MSU administrators as they quote demystify policy and process, especially as it relates to DEI. And this is circulated, you know, this is circulated on on Wednesday of last week. And then the next day comes along, and it's canceled. Right? They send back an email to everyone who had signed up to come to this thing, which was a webinar, and they said, hey.
Owen:We're not gonna have this anymore. Specifically, here's what they wrote because I think it's important. They say, based on recent developments, the webinar has been postponed. We will notify you when a new date has been selected. And sort of what comes to mind for me well, and then I guess, I we should also give play, you know, the the MSU vote co directors, you know, they emailed us what we asked them about this, kind of looking for more details about exactly why was this decision made because it's important.
Owen:No. They seem to sort of suggest that it was so that the panelists could have more time to kind of review these things, read them, discuss them so that they can productively, accurately sort of articulate this stuff to the audience. Of course, what I would point out is the time we're talking about, it was still about a week out from when the event was. Right? So I think that timeline is important there.
Owen:But, you know Have
Alex:they rescheduled it? Have they set a new date?
Owen:Not not at this point. Nope.
Alex:I see. So I guess, I mean, there's 2 ways to read it. Right? You can believe, that Chris Ruffo is as influential as he might think he is and that MSU saw his tweet and saw the executive order and said, alright. We gotta chill on this DEI stuff.
Alex:Or as the people who cancel the event are trying to say
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:It's actually that they just want more time to more more accurately talk about the DEI stuff and have you and whatnot, but, of course, they haven't rescheduled it as far as we know.
Owen:Yeah. And and so that distinction you make there, I think time will tell, but in any case, you know, it's obvious that Trump's actions had an effect at least in some capacity.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:Right. Well, it's interesting because all of that that you wrote about last week is kind of people scrambling under, the this condition of, like, oh, is he gonna turn it as he does this apply to us? What's gonna happen? Are we do we need to do this? This week Yep.
Alex:We we got, for the first time, actually, Trump specifically signing one of these executive orders where MSU is, like, an actual party to it, who is being directly affected by it. Tell me about the story that we published yesterday about this new executive order that specifically targets MSU's DEI programs. Yeah. Yep. So so this executive order, DEI programs.
Owen:Yeah. Yep. So so this executive order is titled ending illegal discrimination and restoring merit based opportunity. So you can see that that's the way that the Trump administration sort of conservatives frame DEI is actually being discriminatory in itself. But this order specifically, it directed federal agencies to quote identify up to 9 potential civil compliance investigations into colleges and universities with endowments over 1,000,000,000 as well as publicly traded corporations and large nonprofits.
Owen:Obviously, MSU then is included in that group. MSU's endowment well, first of all, it's a university and its endowment is 4,400,000,000. So, you know, hypothetically, MSU could sort of be a target here. And sort of what this order is saying is, you know, Trump is asking is requesting I should ordering his AG to sort of compile, like, a list here of these sort of potential targets and then compile a list of kind of, like, things that they could do that the federal government could do to kind of deter these illegal discrimination, DEI programs.
Alex:So so with this order because I think it's easy to to misunderstand it. I I kind of did it first when I was reading about it. It's not that Trump is taking action against universities like MSU right now to somehow eliminate their DEI programs, but he's signing this order that says, I, as the president, don't like this DEI stuff. You, as my cabinet members, need to present me with a list of things I can do to punish universities for having that Yep. Including MSU as one of the schools with an endowment more than $1,000,000,000.
Owen:Yep.
Alex:So he's basically waiting, and then they're gonna give him some list of, like, mister president, these are the things you can do to, like, you know, kind of punish schools for having DEI or motivate them to not have it. Yeah. And then it remains to be seen if he'll actually execute any
Owen:of that against MSU. Right. Well, yeah. And then also, you're you're
Owen:absolutely right. And then also, he's asking his cabinet to to give
Owen:me, you know, he wants 9. Right? Asking his cabinet to to give me, you know, he wants 9. Right? I I find it interesting that, you know, he kinda had this number.
Owen:I don't know how he settled on on the 9. But he wants 9 investigations, and he wants the cabinet to bring him a list, and that could include universities with, endowments over 1,000,000,000, which then in turn could include MSU. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, I think it is a politically fraught time, and I think there's, you know, a panic that happens. But, yeah, for now, this is Trump saying, yeah, I I want you guys to look into this and sort of tell me, but as far as does this order in the immediate sense affect MSU and its DEI, no.
Alex:Well, it'll be interesting to see, like, both nationally and for us, especially at MSU, is what Trump's doing here, like, is this gonna play out all the way and his people will identify universities and identify things that the federal government can do against them, and then they're gonna go through that process and somehow get some sort of, like, sanction or resolution ending DEI programs, or is the school like MSU just gonna see that this is going on and go, let's get rid of this DEI stuff so we don't have to deal with all of these federal probes. Like, I wonder Yeah. To what extent this will play out before universities comply. Yeah.
Owen:Yeah. That's a great point. I I think, honestly, you know, you have to think that that's kind of part of what Trump and his team sort of have in mind here.
Owen:Mhmm.
Owen:Is that with the executive order, we talked about the first one that's just ending DEI, in the federal government, and then sort of Trump proxy saying on Twitter, beware everyone else, and then something like this that's saying, we're looking into it. It does seem to sort of instill a sort of fear, I guess, I would say in some of these places that have DEI to the point where they might just kinda scrub it before the federal government really has to step in. So
Alex:someone like, you know, Chris Ruffo who is clearly, like, the architect of so much of this thinking Mhmm. And directly kind of, like, wrote this playbook when a few years ago, Ron DeSantis puts him on university boards in Florida Yep. And especially at, I believe it's called the New College in Florida, which is like a public liberal arts college. Yeah. He reshapes this university and, like, cuts DEI and kind of makes it what a lot of conservatives want higher ed to be.
Alex:Yeah. For him to be out there saying, yes, this is the strategy. We, you know, show, like, the the stick. We show our threat.
Owen:Yes.
Alex:And hopefully general counsels, like, are scared enough of that to do what we want before we actually have to, like, take a long litigious action against universities. Yep. Something guy like you at the state news should follow closely and write more stories about how MSU actually handles this. Yeah. That's And tell me about too.
Alex:So so we've talked about these specific Trump executive orders, like, targeting DEI, potentially targeting MSU.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:But it feels like this is part of this broader cultural shift against, DEI that was, you know, became so widespread after 2020 in the last couple of years. Yeah. You've written a good amount now about, maybe the most prominent dean in MSU, the dean of MSU's renowned college of education Yep. Who is tied up in what feels like a very related fight. Right?
Alex:Yeah. Absolutely. Where, conservatives his research has a lot to do with, like, equity in education. Yep. You have conservatives who are very critical of that research, who are accusing him of sort of, plagiarism throughout his scholarship, and now you have his advocates, including MSU, saying, no.
Alex:No. No. They don't actually care about plagiarism. This is just an attack on a prominent black academic studying issues of equity. Yeah.
Alex:Tell me about what's going on with the dean of the college of ed Yeah. And how that might relate to some of these themes.
Owen:Yeah. Absolutely. So, yes, it was in October. There's a conservative Washington DC based outlet called the Washington Free Beacon. I believe it was either October 8th or 9th.
Owen:They published this story, and it is based on a complaint that was filed with the university. As far as who filed this complaint, we still don't know. I still don't know. If you're out there, maybe you wanna talk to the state news about this. I don't know.
Owen:But we don't know exactly who filed this complaint. But anyway, it gets picked up by the Washington free beacon, and, you know, it's saying that this guy, well, I guess I should even take a step back. He was first implicated, Jerlando Jackson, the the college of ed dean, he was first implicated in a related fight, at Harvard, where if you'll recall the Harvard president, then president Claudine Gay, last spring amid, you know, campus protests about the Israel Hamas war and divestment calls. You know, she is called in front of congress to sort of testify about how she's handling hate speech on campus, and her responses are very legalistic, and she sort of is is perceived to fail to kind of adequately condemn anti semitism. Mhmm.
Owen:Right? And so then, she's really in the hot hot seat, and then the pressure compounds when allegations of plagiarism come out against her, and it becomes a part this big whole fight. Right? The free beacon is covering that
Alex:Fascinating actually the Claudine Gaye plagiarism allegations are actually first brought forward by Chris Ruffo, who we're just talking about.
Owen:Exactly. Yep. He's into this stuff. And so this is being covered, and then the free beacon kinda adds to the story, and they say, you know, the first line of the story is it's not just Claudine Gay. Turns out the chief diversity officer at Harvard had also allegedly plagiarized.
Owen:Mhmm.
Owen:And then lower down in this story, one of the papers in question that this guy, the chief diversity officer at Harvard had had allegedly, you know, done poorly and did plagiarism in, he coauthored that with his wife and also Gerlando Jackson. So so he's
Alex:a coauthor on this supposedly plagiarized paper
Owen:Exactly. Months ago. Yep. So that's when Gerlando Jackson is first implicated in this, and then months later comes a story from the free beacon sort of a follow-up that's just narrowly about Jackson and a complaint about him and his scholarship specifically, and it sort of, you know, details more widespread, more widespread plagiarism in Jack
Alex:from Jack. Explain. We've seen it. It's pretty striking. I mean, there's Striking.
Alex:Large passages of his scholarship that seem to be pulled
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:Kind of word for word from places that he did not cite whatsoever.
Owen:Exactly. Yep. So I'd encourage people to go to go check that out, because some of this plagiarism stuff becomes sort of subjective and people fall different on, well, is that is that the most egregious plagiarism or is it not? But, you know
Alex:Hard to explain. You kinda gotta see it side by side and decide what you think.
Owen:Absolutely. And some people argue, well, there's only so many so many ways to say some things.
Owen:Yeah.
Owen:But then you could also be skeptical and be like, yeah. But there's there are ways, and this seems to be the exact same way. Mhmm. But in any case, so then the story about him comes out, in the free beacon, and then, you know, it's it's quiet for a while. Nothing really comes of it.
Owen:MSU, is is sort of quiet to us about what exactly they're doing, and then eventually, we do some reporting, where we we we obtained this letter, that MSU's president and provost had signed that basically said, hey, we did an internal review here. We looked into this allegation, and we did not find sufficient evidence for any wrongdoing. And, also, importantly in this email, they vehemently condemn, the racism against Jackson, which there there absolutely was, after the free beacon kind of put out the story that the journalist who wrote it, you know, he he tweets about this and then you look at the replies and it's, you know, I think as I put in my story sort of rife with racist implications about why Jackson who is both black and a scholar of DEI, you know, sort of rife with racist implications about why he would have done, plagiarism. Right? And so MSU, you know, calls these attacks vile, despicable, racist.
Owen:And so that was sort of the story there. And so, you know, that was definitely you talked about how does this connect to these things we've been discussing this episode. That was sort of a potential window into where sort of culturally a place like MSU, which is, you know, like you said, DEI scholarship comes out of the university. We certainly have a lot of people who are invested in that at this institution. You see where that sort of comes into conflict with the Trump administration and a sort of republican conservative movement that wants to completely do away with that stuff.
Owen:And so MSU sort of coming out and strongly saying, we're behind our guy. There wasn't actually anything significant plagiarism that he that he did. You know, was essentially sort of implying that it was kind of politically, ideologically motivated. I thought it was really revelatory and really gave a interesting insight into kind of this cultural moment we're at and and where there's appears to be a sort of emerging tension between higher education, MSU, and, you know, the Trump administration.
Alex:And did MSU, you know, this letter that you obtained has this very strong kind of of, like, kind of the response to these allegations. Yeah. People took, the ball that the free beacon put out about, like, Gerlando Jackson seems to have apparently has plagiarized portions of his scholarship, and they kind of ran with it, and they turned it into, like, these racist attacks on him as a black academic and an attack on, like, you know, the type of scholarship he does about equity issues altogether. Exactly. It seems like MCs very strongly condemned that.
Alex:Yeah. Did they provide additional details or, I guess, a copy of this review they did where they actually seem to have disputed the plagiarism allegations themselves?
Owen:No. They they've not provided that. You know, they did say in the letter, you know, we this they sort of described a little bit about what this review entails.
Alex:And they use the word exoneration. Right? The idea that, like, we're because this letter is to all the other leaders of MCU Yeah. Saying, like, this guy that's been in the news Yep. We think he's fine.
Alex:We looked at his stuff, and he's exonerated. This is okay. Right.
Owen:Yeah. And and what they say is that this review, that exonerated him, that it encompassed relevant documents, records, and materials referred to in the allegation, and after they reviewed that, it confirmed that Dean Jackson's work meets our institution's highest standards of academic integrity. And then interestingly, they even say, in alignment with the university's exoneration policy, we recognize the importance of restoring the reputation of individuals. Right? So again, we're we're just trying to get it here.
Owen:It was a very vehement defense of this team. But, you know, details on exactly what this review looked like, you know, we don't really have them outside of this, you know, and we intend to, I think, kinda continue to look into that here, because these reviews elsewhere when there's been these plagiarism debates, and allegations of of plagiarism against black scholars and DEI scholars, the the internal reviews that universities do to exonerate have sort of been the subject of, you know, scrutiny in the media and further discussion. People are sort of skeptical, you know, they sort of perceive a conflict of interest there. The university, Harvard, for example, you know, trying to protect this image, they have Claudine Gay. They may have a vested interest in sort of looking into this and saying she's okay.
Owen:Right?
Alex:Harvard clear gay before her resignation?
Owen:Harvard Harvard did clear gay, but I think, you know, said that some of this stuff some of this stuff is is maybe, you know, not great, but sort of more it's a forgivable mistake. It doesn't amount to any sort of egregious academic misconduct. But then, of course, Gay does ultimately resign. But again, you can't say it was only because of the plagiarism stuff. There was all the other stuff about campus hate speech as well.
Owen:But yeah. And so, you know exactly how this will play out, it it remains to be seen, but but yeah. Definitely, we don't know much about the internal review at this point, but I would say it's important what that review looked like, and it's been important elsewhere. You know?
Owen:And it's
Alex:I I think you made a good point in your story that, like, it, I think would be naive to think that MSU is saying, we did this review, and he's fine, is gonna be the last word on this. Because in, you know, these similar kind of scandals that have played out elsewhere, the university's review is almost never this, like, conclusive Yeah. Batting down of any sort of skepticism. This stuff continues. Yep.
Alex:And I'm sure you'll be following it.
Owen:Yep. Sure will.
Alex:How about this? Talks a lot about this federal stuff with MSU. Yeah.
Owen:It seems like there's
Alex:a lot on MSU's plate. Yeah. But there's more. Yeah. There's also some state level stuff that maybe is less partisan left right politics, conservative liberal tensions Right.
Alex:But it's just sort of a tension between kind of the the elected politicians overseeing the university and the university's, you know, sort of governance.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:Tell me about this looming threat that governor Whitmer is gonna switch up who's on MSU's governing board. Yeah. Why is she lurking? Why is she looming? Why is governor Whitmer, involved?
Alex:Mhmm.
Owen:Yeah. So so we have to go back a little bit. Bear with me. This was last fall of last academic year. There was this letter, that was written by trustee Brianna Scott, and it was, essentially detailing really widespread misconduct allegations against the then board chair, Rima Vassar.
Owen:And then this, you know, comes out and people are immediately, like, woah, this is our board chair who's involved in some of this stuff. The allegations, you know, accepting private, flights from donors and things like that, and interfering in the university's legal affairs, and then also this other conversation about a really fraught relationship with the then president and this this quote bullying that was going on. You know, then when pressure is sort of mounting and the faculty senate is sort of voting to say, sort of expressing, you know, what's going on here and there's this concern, MSU, the way they respond is, well, we're gonna hire an independent investigation. We're gonna look into it, and we'll get back to you. They do this investigation, and end up essentially proving a lot of those allegations.
Owen:Correct? Not all of them. We've reported on that at length, but but a lot of the significant ones. And also, Rima Vassar, trustee Vassar's kinda big ally in the board, Dennis Denno, was also implicated in this, and a lot of wrongdoing was found there.
Alex:Well, that was what was kinda was this letter was about Vassar. Yeah. And so they, you know, hired this firm to do an investigation of Vassar. And then you get the report, and only half of it's about Vassar. The other half of it is about Dennis Denno who seems to be working closely with her in ways that were violating a number of board policies Yep.
Alex:And also just kind of pursuing. We we've actually expanded on this a little bit with some state news reporting, just sort of pursuing, like, personal favors from various administrators seemingly just for his own kind of gain, not as part of any sort of broader effort between them. But anyway, so this report comes out.
Owen:Yes. This report comes out, and, you know, this report makes recommendations at the end and says, hey, we looked into this. This is kind of what we think you guys should do. Of course, that's nonbinding. Right?
Owen:But when universities pay this money for these investigations, you know, I'd say it's a fairly common practice to kinda want a set of recommendations. Right?
Alex:Well, it's nice to be able to as a board be like, we paid these outsiders. They looked at it. They told us we gotta do it. Yeah. But what did they tell them to do?
Alex:You
Owen:know, they told them to do a couple things. For 1, you you know, center the trustees or have a vote on it at least, which, you know, that's a symbolic thing, but still A
Alex:stamp of disapproval.
Owen:Exactly. That's exactly what it is. And they said, you know, strip these people of their committee assignments for about a year. Just maybe take a little bit of a backseat on the board. They can still vote, but they can't be on these committees.
Owen:But then, pertinently, importantly, the big one is they said, there's this kinda little known thing in the, in the Michigan constitution, which actually does give the governor the authority to remove, you know, elected officials from office, you know, if they've done I forget what the exact wording is, but, you know, egregious misconduct, corruption, malfeasance, those sorts of things. Yeah. They say technically, the governor has the authority to come in here and remove these people if she wants. So what you guys could consider doing as a board is vote on that and decide if you wanna put this in the governor's hands. And the governor had previously weighed weighed in on this.
Owen:Governor Whitmer is an MSU alum. You know, she's always talking go green, go white. She cares about the place. It's
Alex:close Except when U of M's in the college football playoffs.
Owen:Yeah. Right.
Alex:Suddenly, she's in the.
Owen:Blue. Yeah. You know, well, she's a governor. You know? And also, obviously, it's it's very close to home.
Owen:She's over there in Lansing. We're we're right here, and so, you know, she'd waited on this before and said some of the allegations against Vassar, for example, were, concerning and that, you know, she was keeping an eye on it. Now, the board comes and has a special meeting where they're gonna vote after this investigation, and they they they do take the recommendation of the of the investigation, and they do vote to refer it to the governor, and and put it in her hands. And so that was, gosh, almost a year ago, 9 months ago now, that that vote was taken, and all still we've gotten from from the governor is and their spokespeople is the request is still under review.
Alex:So for, like, almost a year, basically, she's saying, like, yes. They get asked me to get involved, but I'm I'm thinking about it. I'm looking at it.
Owen:Yeah. And and she's she's thought about it. She's also she tapped her attorney general.
Owen:Mhmm.
Owen:And I I think you have sort of a good grasp about this in the story we wrote on, that we wrote last week. But, you know, this extent to which she asked the AG, Dana Nessel to get involved and kinda look at this, and sort of It's it's
Alex:interesting because she's, like, saying, okay, the AG is basically like the governor's lawyer. Mhmm. So be my lawyer and look at this and give me advice. Yeah. But But it's complicated here because Dana Nessel, the attorney general, has her own very kind of troubled history with this embassy board, and is actually a party to one of the reasons they asked to have a member removed.
Alex:Right. You know, there's this whole spat where, Rima Vassar goes to the attorney general's office, says, you go out publicly, say, I want these NASA related documents. MSU has been hiding for years, and my board's behind me. I'm gonna give them to you. And Nestle says, I want the documents, and then Vassar says, we're not gonna give them to you.
Alex:And I think Nestle is upset by this and is publicly criticizing Vassar.
Owen:She said she had literally no idea why Vassar would have told her that.
Alex:Yeah. I mean, she's she's being very mean about this. She's out in the newspaper saying stuff about Vassar Yeah. And they're now publicly fighting over this. Yeah.
Alex:The independent investigation tries to say that, you know, Vassar actually did not have the board's backing. She was acting unilaterally trying to, like, politic Yep. This thing that she did not have the power to do. And in so in doing so, she had violated board policies. Exactly.
Alex:And what we think is going on is that this is actually posing a complication for the attorney general because we've seen internal emails from her office that we've obtained records request Yeah. About this advice she's preparing for governor Whitmer. Yeah. And as part of those communications, her lawyers have been sending between each other talking about establishing a wall Yeah. Presumably some sort of ethical firewall
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:And they've been sharing these state bar rules about whether or not an attorney has a conflict of interest if they're both a witness in a case and representing a party in it. Right. So kind of like, you know, we don't like to make assumptions, but a reasonable assumption and we've asked everybody about this, none of them will talk about it. Right. But an assumption we're kinda making is that this is something they're considering.
Alex:This idea that because Nestle is so involved in this in the dispute, can she really be, like, Whitmer's lawyer in it? Yeah. She's doing this review. We have no idea what she's actually saying. It's all subject to privilege, and we can't get a hold of it.
Alex:Yeah. Anyway, so that's where it's at. But what we've wrote about is okay. So you've told me that the board asked Whitmer to get involved Yep. And she's been doing some mysterious things for a year, then tells us she's still thinking.
Alex:We don't know exactly what her thinking is. What has happened in the year since at MSU? Is there still this, like, rich tension between the trustees about wanting these people off the board? That doesn't seem to be the case. Tell me what the story you wrote this week.
Owen:Yeah. In fact, not. So kind of the idea is that as, you know, we're approaching this 1 year mark and the governor and the attorney general are are still considering this, MSU's leaders are telling us that they're sort of content to move on and sort of unconcerned with what that decision is. As as board chair, Kelly, Kelly Thibay, who's who's new to the position as of the start of this year, you know, she says the governor can she tells us the governor can make the decision she wants to make, but we have work to do. And that, you know, kind of essentially that same sentiment was expressed to us by by MSC's president.
Owen:Mhmm.
Owen:And he sort of described to you this sort of a positive relationship that he's having with the board so far. Yeah.
Alex:I mean, you know, I asked him, you know, are you supportive of removal? Because we think about this Miller chavalier, this law firm they hired. Yeah. They frame this report where kind of like the primary victim of a lot of this, misconduct on the board Mhmm. Is the university, but also specifically the presidents Yeah.
Alex:Who they say these trustees were trying to kind of go behind their backs and usurp them and also embarrass them. They took students to crucify the president.
Owen:Oh, yeah.
Alex:And so I asked him, you know, are you supportive of this? I mean, you're in the position that's supposedly being victimized by the misconduct on the board. What do you think Whitmer should do? And he wouldn't give me a straight answer. He said, oh, I don't wanna talk about that.
Alex:I'm not gonna give you an answer one one way or the other. But what he said was, I like the relationship I have with the 8 trustees on the board, and I will continue to work with them. Yeah. You know, he was very clear about, like, he likes this working relationship with the 8 board members. And so kind of the thesis of our story was, like, in the year since Whitmer was asked to intervene, it seems like through whatever process, MSU has been able to kind of put these disagreements aside, and the board is claiming that they're all getting along, and it's a good time back there in their secret meetings and whatnot.
Alex:So Yeah. Yeah. And and I wonder if Whitmer does come in and try and shake things up, how that would kind of disrupt that supposed harmony on the board.
Owen:Yeah. And I I think our story was was careful to say that some of this is like an ostensible unity. You know, obviously, this is he had an interview with you. He knows that you're a reporter. Right?
Owen:And so All the real work
Alex:of the board happens in their Thursday sessions
Owen:Right.
Alex:Which are closed. Obviously, Kelly Tibay, the board chair, recently told you that those are just personal. Yeah.
Owen:She said that.
Alex:But we know that this is when they do the real work. So, like, you know, we can't say we know for sure that they're actually all getting along. We're not in their heads. We don't know if they actually secretly hate each other. Yeah.
Alex:You know? But they're claiming, which is different than what they've claimed before, that it's a good time.
Owen:Yeah. And I think I think Tbay also, you know, when I was asking her about this, you know, I I sort of pressed and I said, well, what about, like, interpersonally? Like, it's I almost felt a little bit funny, you know, asking her, like, how do you get along with these people?
Alex:But it is But it's like, you know, they work together, but also like, they were publicly saying very mean things about each other.
Owen:Exactly.
Alex:And so it's like, you know but anyway, so you ask her, like, just on a human level, what's going on?
Owen:Yeah. And she says, well, you know, with any workplace and any professional setting, there's going to be interpersonal tensions. But that the relationship that they do have is sufficiently professional and is and is getting us through not to worry everybody. So she sort of did kind of leave open the door to say, yeah, we maybe don't like each other per se. Right?
Owen:And when you have the the public attacks and crying in board meetings, you know, that's that's not hard to see. But she said, we're we're at a place now where we're ready to move on. We don't care what Whitmer decides, and we're getting along well enough was the idea.
Alex:And I mean, they're certainly putting up a public face. Like, you know, a little more than a year ago, I covered that hours long board meeting where you have, their their like, half the board is having actual tears. They are saying awful things about each other. There are these racial tensions and personal tensions, and this is just an incredibly tense room. Right?
Alex:And now, at the most recent board meeting, you had these, like, kind of like sappy speeches. These are people who previously have voiced, like, a true disdain for each
Owen:other Yeah.
Alex:Talking about I'm gonna miss you so much now that you're, like, not gonna be on the board. Yep. And publicly, they're they're just putting up a very different face. And you have to wonder to what extent is that, like, a natural, like, bearing the hatchet we're getting along, and to what extent is that, like, we like our president. We wanna keep him.
Alex:Yeah. And you have to remember, when they were courting him last year and trying to get him to take the job, he told the board, I will only take the job if you guys don't interfere in my work Yeah. And you guys get along.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:And so it's, like, you know, I wonder to what extent that is, like, this natural, you know, everybody having a good time, and to what extent that is, like, him putting pressure and them just liking him and wanting to keep him when he was very explicit about, like, you guys gotta do that, or I'm not gonna stick around.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:They've had issues with president sticking around.
Owen:Oh, they sure have. Yeah. And I'd also say this unified front you mentioned sappy speeches, and and, you know, this a sensible unity, but it's also been a sort of unity on on more kind of, like, immediate questions in this of of, you know, campus politics and the sort of thing that that board members could sort of differ on. But so the big one, and we have reporting on this, you know, these calls for divestment, you know, people who think MSU need should, you know, pull its funding, and anything in its in its endowment that is connected to to Israel or weapons manufacturers amid this this this war and and it proceeds genocide as well. You know, MSU should divest.
Owen:You know, at times, our reporting shows that the board members have sort of actually, Vassar and Denno have the ones have been the ones who have been sort of open to it and have
Owen:Well, I
Owen:mean, there
Alex:was a time when they were, like, meeting with campus activists and telling them how to get at different members of the board Right. But not anymore. I mean, they're presenting a very unified front of, no, we're not gonna do this.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:So That's kind of a weird discipline from them.
Owen:Exactly. A unique discipline, and so this is one of the it's not just the savvy speeches. It's also these practical questions of
Owen:Yeah.
Owen:Of campus politics and how do we handle it, and they're unified on that as well. Well, it'll
Alex:be interesting to see both with this federal stuff, you know, will MSU kind of comply and advance with the DEI stuff? How will the questions about immigration or research funding play out on campus? And with the state level stuff, when Whitmer, whenever, presumably, she's going to say something, do something, when she does that, what that's gonna do to the to the dynamics here.
Owen:Yeah. A lot
Alex:of us to keep an eye on how Yeah. It seems like very precarious perch MSU sitting on politically Yeah. State and federal level, and I think we've done a pretty good job of explaining it.
Owen:I think so.
Alex:Yeah. I I hope people are still with us. It's a very long dense episode. Yeah. But we got through it.
Alex:That's all for now. We'll be back next week with fresh reporting for the great minds here at State News. Until then, all of the reporting we discussed and a bunch more is available at statenews.com. Thank you to Owen for coming on again and talking us through this. Thank you to our podcast coordinator, Taylor, for everything that you hear.
Alex:Most of all, thank you for listening. For the 19:09, I'm Alex Walters.