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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
KALEY OLSON:
Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Proverbs 31 Ministries podcast, where we share biblical truth for any girl in any season. Every episode gives you a solid teaching to challenge your faith, followed by a conversation where we pull up a chair and unpack what it actually looks like in real life. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here today with my co-host, Meredith Brock.
MEREDITH BROCK:
Well, hey, Kaley. We just had, um, a great conversation with one of my absolute favorite people. Max Lucado. I look forward to every single podcast we ever record with him because I walk away so encouraged, and today was no different. Guys, he has a message about Elijah, and I know maybe you think you know all the stories of Elijah and you've heard this before or whatever, but the way he paints a picture with his words to make the story come alive and then transitions into a way to be able to apply to the struggles you have today, guys, it's a good one. So get ready, buckle up. You are gonna enjoy and walk away from today's podcast so encouraged.
KALEY:
Absolutely Meredith. This episode reminds me how important it is to go to scripture and trusted sources when I'm struggling with feelings of discouragement or when, honestly, my day is just out of control. I know you know that.
KALEY:
And truly, that's exactly why Proverbs 31 Ministries exists, to help you know the truth and live the truth, because it changes everything. Friends, as you listen today, I pray not only that God would speak something specifically to the situation that you're facing, but that this podcast episode can be a resource that you pass along to a friend who needs it.
KALEY:
Maybe she's discouraged. Maybe she's facing some fear. Maybe you've just kind of gone round and round in a conversation with her and you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna send you some words from Max." This episode is for you and for her. And when you share an episode, I want you to know that you're sharing a biblically based perspective.
KALEY:
You're sharing truth that points them to God's word and not to Google, and you're sharing something completely free because someone decided to give back to this ministry.
MEREDITH:
We really could not do this podcast at all, or really anything we do here at Proverbs 31 Ministries without the generosity of our donors and those who commit to give monthly. And if that's you, if you are one of our listeners, please, please, please hear from the bottom of my heart thank you so much for making this minstry possible. All right, friends, let's dive into our conversation with Max Lucado.
KALEY:
Well, welcome back to the show, Max. We are so glad you're here.
MAX LUCADO:
It is a joy to be with you. I hope you're doing well.
MEREDITH:
We are. We sure are, Max. You are just like family around here. Um, we get to have you on the podcast about once a year, which is such a treat. I absolutely love it.
KALEY:
It's like Christmas.
MEREDITH:
It, it is just lovely. Um, you're-
MAX:
Well, the treat is mine.
MEREDITH:
Oh, you're so kind. You're here today because you've released a new book titled Unbreakable Courage: Strong Faith in an Age of Anxiety, Chaos, and Exhaustion. And you have got some women on the other side of this podcast, um, even on the other side of this mic right now listening who I know are in need of some encouragement for to- today. So we can't wait to hear what you've got on your heart to share with us. So take it away, Max.
MAX:
Well, it's my joy. It really is. You know, there are so many times in life we just feel all alone, completely alone. I, I would imagine that right now I'm talking to someone who just feels outnumbered, outpaced, outdone, outgunned, outmaneuvered out there in the tempest all alone, and you feel like the odds are against you.
MAX:
Maybe you feel like it's 850 to one Those are the odds against Elijah. Elijah, this Old Testament prophet with a new covenant promise, he was outnumbered. In the most famous event of his life, he had a standoff against 850 false prophets. They were cultish priests. They wore linen robes. They danced, and they chanted on Mount Carmel, and they cried out to heaven to rain fire down upon this usurper, upon this godless, slithering snake.
MAX:
At least that's what the king of Israel called Elijah. The king in those days was on the side of the bad dude, so was his wife, Jezebel. She was the baddest of the bad. You know, there, there, there's a reason that we don't name our kids Ahab and Jezebel. Ahab and Jezebel were among the most evil of the kings in ancient Israel.
MAX:
They fed lies to the people, and they fed food to the false prophets, and they urged people to worship Baal and Asherah, Baal and Asherah. This is the nation of Israel, by the way, ninth century BC, uh, only about 100 years removed from the construction of the temple, yet the nation of Israel is a nation that is going off the spiritual tracks.
MAX:
The entire nation is worshiping Baal. The entire nation is worshiping Asherah. Now why does that matter? Well, of course, the obvious reason is they're abandoning their faith in the one true God, but they're worshiping Baal and Asherah in worship services that, as terrible as this sounds, included temple prostitution and, at times, even child sacrifice.
MAX:
How does God respond to a time in which people, a nation of people, His people, are off the trail, off the track? Well, in this case, He responded with Elijah. Elijah, this prophet. In my mind, I just see him with skin leathered from years in the sun and his cheeks sunken from meager meals. Robe is tattered, sandals are thin, but don't think him to be frail.
MAX:
The man is a picture of courage. In fact, if Olympics had an event for faith, Elijah would wear the gold medal. He's tapped into a divine reservoir, and that source is the reason that he's willing to take on the king and the queen and the 850 false prophets. Now- What does, what does his life have to do with your life?
MAX:
Why would, why would we care about Elijah? Why is his story important? Well, I would suggest that the day in which he lived is strikingly similar to the day in which we live. According to Gallup, each year over the last 20 years has seen a departure from former values. Attitudes are changing drastically in every category, from divorce to having a baby outside of a marriage, to gambling, to sex between an unmarried man and woman, to sex between teenagers, to birth control, to gay and lesbian relations.
MAX:
Even Gallup, which is no necessarily friend of the faith, but more of an objective measurement of society, is saying that increasingly the country in which we live, society in which we live, is changing. In a historical blink of an eye, we're shedding old beliefs and we're grasping for new ones. What was once unthinkable is acceptable.
MAX:
So the world around us is changing, but even more, and maybe more personally to those of you who are listening, the world within us is changing. Cases of depression are on the upswing. Opioid addiction has turned into a pandemic. Here's a statistic: 84% of Americans report feelings of extended stress. 84, that's roughly 280 million stressed out people, resulting in increasing anxiety in every category.
MAX:
And most tragically, the US suicide rate is the highest it's been since World War II. Changes around us, challenges within us. Man, the life feels like it's spinning and moving fast. And so the question is, is it possible for a person of faith to find courage? Is it possible for a person of faith to swim upstream in this downstream world?
MAX:
Elijah is one of God's answers to that question. Now prepare yourself for this guy. He's a bit rough around the edges. He was not fatherly like Abraham, not pastoral like the Apostle Paul, not scholarly like Peter or John, not nurturing like Mother Mary. I think he's more a lightning bolt in the night sky, a tornado in the open prairie, untethered to popular opinion, really unconcerned with political correctness.
MAX:
He was a gadfly in the throne room and a mayfly in history. The very first time he appears in scripture is right there in the middle of the throne room of Ahab and Jezebel. Ahab and Jezebel, at least here's how I envision this moment, cleavages are abundant. Men gape at the women, women flirt with the men. It is carnal. It is fleshly. And Elijah bursts into the court. His appearance is the composite of the country in which he was raised, shaggy locks and sinewy muscles, coarse skin, and eyes ebony like the night.
MAX:
And he enters and stands before Jezebel and Ahab, and the first recorded words in his, in scripture are, "As the Lord God of Israel lives, before whom I stand." That's in 1 Kings 17 in verse one. "As the Lord God of Israel lives, before whom I stand." It's as if he's saying to Jezebel and Ahab, "You think everyone bows before you?
MAX:
You think you say jump and we say how high?" He says, "I don't. I stand before the Lord God of Israel. And by his power," he then says, "there shall be no dew nor rain these years except as my word." Now, that's a surgical strike because Baal was regarded as the god of fertility, yet Baal's veil was about to be yanked back.
MAX:
Jehovah has declared a drought. And as mysteriously as Elijah appears, Elijah is off, and so are we, off and running with this wild story about this wild and wooly man. Does this man have anything to say for us, for our generation? I really think so. I think the winds of society whip lash us. Each day brings a new challenge.
MAX:
AI is gonna eat us up. The war is gonna bring us down. Turn this way, there's conflict. Turn that way, there's tension. Look behind you and there's just a posse of problems coming after you. The story of Elijah, however, gives hope. I think the story of Elijah found in 1 Kings is a field manual on how to thrive during a spiritual drought.
MAX:
He shows us that one person following a living God is greater than hundreds of people praying to a lifeless one. That's why I begin the book with that story about Mount Carmel. There, Elijah is taking on 850 false prophets. And if you haven't read that story, I do hope you will. Because the false prophets could not bring down fire upon that altar, but Elijah called out to God, and God did.
MAX:
And with God's help, even though we feel like we're outnumbered, we can be reminded that we're never outnumbered because one person with God is greater than countless people without Him. And with God's help, you can ride these rapid, uh, these, these raging rapids of life. You can find courage. You can be immovable.
MAX:
You can, like Elijah, learn to pray impossible prayers, even weather a season of discouragement. Yes, Elijah had his share. You can withstand the ungodly trends of society. As much as any person in the Bible, Elijah affirms a positive answer to these questions. Can a person maintain faith in a world that has little?
MAX:
And when a culture belittles belief, can a believer beget strength? The answer is yes Some time ago, I read a story about a, a young girl named Leah Dianez Rodriguez Espada. Her name's a mouthful, and she was full of courage. She was only 12 years old, and she signed up for a 5K race in Rochester, New York.
MAX:
Her mom dropped her off and then drove to a parking lot near the finish line, and she expected to see her doll- daughter in about an hour. But an hour came and went, and there was no sign of her. Within a few moments, the mom began to panic. She contacted race organizers and police officers. Eventually, the 12-year-old was spotted.
MAX:
But she wasn't running in the 5K. She was running in a half-marathon. I- It was just a mistake. She arrived at the starting line just as the race began. She was at the back of the pack. She settled into a rhythm, and somewhere around mile four, she began to suspect a problem. She asked some of her fellow runners to point out the end of the race, and that's when she realized that she was participating in the wrong event.
MAX:
The race was not five kilometers but 13.1 miles. You and I all have something in common with this young runner. This race we're in is long, longer than we thought. The challenges are many, more than we ever imagined. And the struggles are numerous. So numerous, well, we may wanna quit, just step off the course and give up.
MAX:
But you know, when our young friend realized her mistake, she chose to stay in the race. A police officer found her on the course of the half-marathon. He told her that people were worried, but she said she couldn't quit. The race was different than the one she had planned on and prepared for, but she wanted to finish it.
MAX:
She put one foot in front of the other until she put one foot over the finish line. Her mother, when asked to explain her daughter's resilience, just said, "Well, she decided to keep running and not give up." You know, that's all God wants of any of us. We don't have to finish first or fast or without foibles or without fumbles.
MAX:
We just need to finish. Elijah did. He never quit, not during the drought, not under the threat of the queen, not when 850 enemies came after him, and not even when he battled his own depression. He felt like it. He felt like throwing in the towel. He considered it. He almost did. But he didn't I hope this Elijah story can calm our fears and can guide our steps.
MAX:
You know, faith in our living God ignites a force for living life. With God's help, we will discover strength to ride this storm, and we will discover a steadfast faith. Yes, the world is changing, and yes, your world is challenging, but yes, here's the great news. You serve a living God, and you can have the steadfast faith of Elijah.
MAX:
Father, I pray for all the people who are listening to the message today. We believe this is a divine appointment. We believe that this message was, was placed in the hearts and minds of these precious children of yours on this day because they needed to know that you're with them, just as you were with Elijah.
MAX:
May you bless them, stabilize them, help these daughters of yours to be strong. Help mothers to be steady. Help wives to be encouraged. Help all your children to find faith in you that will enable them to find unbreakable courage. Through Christ we pray-
MEREDITH:
Amen. Max, what a word for our friends, myself listening to be quite honest, as you were unpacking this message, and, and you have such a way words, and seeing what Elijah must have been up against. I never envisioned he had a king that was calling him a snake.
KALEY:
No. I feel like I looked over that part in the Bible.
MEREDITH:
Yeah, and just the, the oppression that was, that he was physically facing, but I don't know that I've ever paused long enough to think about the internal overwhelm tht I’m sure that moment. And I, I found myself, as you were speaking, just thinking about, okay, I may not be facing a king who could quite literally, um, lob my head off and end my life. But that feeling of overwhelm is so real for so many of us who are juggling, and so many of our listeners who are juggling so many things of, you know, waking up in the morning and getting the kids out the door, but also carrying that weight of, "Is my kid okay?"
MEREDITH:
You know, the anxiety of wanting to make sure that's okay, and then you, as a mom that works, then you go to work, and the, the pressure of a natural work environment. And I just am curious, and I know you've been a pastor for so many years, and I'm sure you've had these kinds of conversations with so many moms out there who are juggling these things, but when those feelings get overwhelming and they feel, um, It's like the only thing you can see, we do with that? You know, where do we go with that sense of overwhelm and anxiety?
MAX:
It would be hard to narrow the many, many stories of Elijah down to favorites. But if forced to, I really think that I would take a person to the story about Elijah and his battle with depression.
MAX:
It is an amazing story in scripture. Anybody who's ever questioned whether the Bible is relevant ought to take a look at this story, and it follows right on the heel of Elijah's greatest triumph there on Mount Carmel when he stood up against those 850 false prophets. When the drought ended according to the Lord's promise.
MAX:
But then instead of feeling victorious and triumphant, Elijah hears that Jezebel's out to get him and, and he runs. He runs. Here he’s just stood up against 850 prophets, he runs from the queen. Now, I don't know if I understand that, but here's what I think. I think he was d- exhausted.
MAX:
I think he was just completely out of fuel, and he ran for days on days on days until finally, according to scripture, he fell down under a tree, and he actually said words like, "Just take me, Lord. I don’t have anybody to help me." I think he was depressed. I really do. I think he was totally depleted, and the response of God to the depressed Elijah is beautiful.
MAX:
An angel provided Elijah with food, brought him a meal and told him to take a nap. How practical. You know, sometimes we just need to take a break to refresh, to, to, to get some rest.
MAX:
I remember when I got into the ministry, a friend of mine really urged me to observe a Sabbath. He said, "Your Sundays will exhaust you. Take Mondays." And he said, "God took a day off when he created the world, and the world didn't fall apart. If you take a day off, the world won't fall apart either."
MAX:
Now I know sometimes... I, I've got three daughters, each of whom have small children, and so finding a time to rest is difficult. It really is. I understand that. But understand that sometimes this sense of fatigue contributes to this sense of depression and discouragement. So don't beat yourself up. God didn't lecture Elijah. He won't lecture you.
MAX:
But if you can find some rest, make sure you're taking care of yourself. But still, that wasn't enough for Elijah because Elijah then retreated into a cave. But God called him out of that cave.
MAX:
You know one of the things about the days that we have the blues or the days that we feel lonely or depressed, we just wanna get away from people. And there’s something valuable in that. But also, we need to stay in community. We need to. God called Elijah out of the cave. And you know, Mar- Martin Luther, for, for all the things he did, he also battled depression. And there's a great quote of Martin Luther in which he said, "When I feel depressed, I go and I, I would rather be with the pigs than by myself." The reason is he didn't trust his own thoughts.
MAX:
And sometimes when we're in our, w- when we're in our own thoughts, our thoughts are not healthy. So stay in touch with two or three people. Get a community of two or three friends who can help you. Uh, the reason God invented text messages is to help us stay in community with one another.
MAX:
And the last thing God did for Elijah is he, he just talked to him. He talked to him, not through the fire, not through the earthquake, not through the wind, but he talked to him through that still, small voice.
MAX:
I believe God still does that. Keep your Bible open. Uh, turn to the Lord often. Tell him how you feel. He is your father. He calls himself your father, and every father wants to hear from their daughter. I have three. I love it when my daughters reach out to me. I can only imagine how God loves it when we call him Father and we reach out to him.
MAX:
So I send a blessing of prayer for all those who feel exhausted and fatigued. You're not alone. We get it. Yeah, there's others who have been through what you're going through, and there's encouragement out there. Just don’t give up.
KALEY:
That's so good, Max. I think just continuing to piggyback on this a little bit more, Elijah's story of great courage followed immediately by discouragement is kind of intriguing to me because I look at that and I kind of ask myself, is the thought here that we should expect discouragement and, like, brace for it?
KALEY:
Or why is it... Is it, is it a good thing that discouragement happens? Because is it-- was it Elijah facing discouragement because he had poured so much out of himself that he was coming, kind of maybe relying on himself? Like, what do we do with that as women whenever we take a step of faith and we start doing something? Should we expect, "Oh, after this high, I might go into a little bit of a low"? Like, is that something we should expect every time?
MAX:
I think you're really landing on something important, and that is as we, uh, a- as life goes on, we learn that the rhythms of our body, our physical body, uh, need to be acknowledged. Uh, that, that we can expect that after an intense weekend, let's say, of events, uh, weddings, maybe a funeral, maybe a church service there's gonna be a letdown. There's gonna be a letdown.
MAX:
And so if you begin feeling, uh, let's say you begin feeling irritable, uh, maybe begin feeling like you need to and want to retreat, perhaps you feel sullen, uh, that's, that's to be expected. I think it’s just so important that you not beat yourself up. I, I say that phrase a lot, because I think- we can be so hard on ourselves. We expect so much out of ourselves. So please, please, please be kind to yourself. Uh, there's nothing wrong with not bringing your A game every day. You know, sometimes just showing up is the best thing that you can do.
MAX:
It’s a hard world and we need to also add there's spiritual attacks. You know, the devil came after uh, Jesus in the wilderness. He comes after us as well. And so don't, don't be too hard on yourself. Stay... S- celebrate the good days. Uh, trust that God will give you what you need in the bad days.
KALEY:
Yeah that’s good. I think to just to kind of land the plane here for us, Max, you just said it in your response, sometimes the most courageous thing that you can do is just keep showing up. And I think that story of that little girl just pushing through in that long race she didn't sign up for.
KALEY:
I just think, gosh, that's how we feel a lot of the times. We say yes, and then it, the process is 10 times or twice as hard as we thought it would be. And so for those of you listening that are in it, um, I just hope you hear Meredith and Max and myself just say, "Keep showing up today."
KALEY:
Whatever that looks like for you, keep showing up and don't give up. Um, Max, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I just feel like this was such a timely and encouraging message for our friends listening, no matter what season of life they're in. And as we wrap up, the first thing I wanna encourage our listeners to do is to grab a copy of Max's book, Unbreakable Courage, anywhere books are sold.
MEREDITH:
And the next thing we would love for our listeners to do is to share this podcast episode with a friend who needs it. You know her. She popped into your mind while you were listening. It's the girl that has been discouraged for a while, and her feelings are overwhelming her. I want you to send this to her right now because one of the best things we can do instead of going to Google for answers is for us to go straight to God's word, and that's what you heard here today on this podcast.
MEREDITH:
And we want to encourage our sisters to continue to do the same thing, and that's what we try to do here every time on the podcast. And we'd be so grateful if you'd help us reach even more women by passing this episode along and encouraging your sisters. All right, friends, that is it for today. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe that when you know the truth and you live the truth, it really does change everything.