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Join Andy Marsland in Exploring Clean Energy where we uncover the ideas, innovations, and projects powering our sustainable future.
You may know us as Exploring Hydrogen, where for 31 episodes we’ve shone a spotlight hydrogen. However, our global challenge of decarbonisation is much bigger than one energy vector.
Now, as we continue as The Exploring Clean Energy Podcast, this 2nd season we’re expanding the conversation to include the other stories that are shaping the energy transition of Australia and the world. We hope you enjoy the diversity of thought, and I welcome you so engage with me to help shape the episodes moving forward – so we can bring you the technical experts and projects that you want to hear about and to answer your important questions. Welcome to our energising journey.
?You are listening to Exploring Clean Energy, where we uncover the ideas, innovations, and projects powering our sustainable future. I'm Andy Marsland. Welcome to the show. I'm thrilled to welcome our guest today, Jenny Ruffell-Smith, who is the Australian representative for the Global Maritime Forum. So a very warm welcome. Thank you, Andy. It's great to be here. I really appreciate the invite. And thanks for being on the podcast. So let's start with you then. Can you give me and the listeners a bit of an overview of your background and how you got to be involved in shipping and maritime decarbonization? Of course. I've been lucky to spend my career working in the shipping and logistics industry, which has been a lot of fun. Done a lot of different roles, operational and commercial, mostly across freight forwarding, ship agency, shipping lines, so kind of worked my way across the industry a bit, and I ended up in maritime decarbonization a few years ago. I was sent on secondment. I was working with Swire Shipping at the time, and I went to the Maersk Mc-Kinney Moller Center for Zero Carbon Shipping in Denmark, which was such an experience. I loved it. I bet it was. Yeah. And there I got thrown into the world of decarbonization of shipping, which I didn't know anything about, and I spent a lot of time working on regulations, so did a lot around FuelEU and IMO Net Zero framework, and realized that, oh, I think I quite like this. I'm quite passionate about this side of the industry. So came back to Australia last year and have landed a role with Global Maritime Forum, who also focus on maritime decarbonization. So they're a not-for-profit. They're based in Copenhagen, so another Danish organization, and they seem to follow me around. But, uh, yeah, it's been great working with them because they sort of, they have two pillars within the organization. One is around human sustainability, so seafarer wellbeing, which is very important, and then the other side is the maritime decarbonization side of things. So we focus around policy, so of course, IMO Net Zero framework is quite a, uh, topical- Relevant, yeah ... yeah, quite topical at the moment. But we also look at first movers, so that's the team I work in, so we're looking at not just the future fuels like ammonia, methanol, hydrogen, but we're also looking into operational efficiency as well. There's a little bit of work now being looked at around batteries. We talked about nuclear just before we started the podcast as well, so you know, there are different things that we're talking about and looking into. But very much my role is focused on sort of the first movers. Mm-hmm. And we have some of those here in Australia, which is exciting, which is why I'm, yeah, working for them on this side of the world. Fantastic, and I'd love to dig into all those areas- ... throughout the podcast, which is fantastic. So are there representatives across the majority of nations then or like, you know, how big is the Global Maritime Forum? So Global Maritime Forum, we're about 55 people, so not that big, so we're definitely not across all of the world, but actually, the majority of my colleagues are based in Europe. I'm actually the only one outside of Europe, and the reason that I have joined them is because we are seeing a lot of opportunity here in Australia, but also in that APAC region as well. I mean, Australia, as a lot of people would know, we have big trading partners, China, Japan, Korea, and those countries are doing a lot in the green transition, so it was thought that, yeah, it would be good to have someone on the ground here, particularly- So you're well-positioned to- Yes, focus on, yeah, Global Maritime Decarbonization Overview Australia- okay ... but yeah, the APAC side of things as well. So where are we today from the perspective of, you know, the global maritime decarbonization then? So- It's widely understood that about 3% of all emissions are from the maritime sector. So how significant then is the challenge of decarbonizing the sector? It is challenging because shipping is global. 80-plus percent of trade is done by shipping, so you know, a lot of the things that we consume on a daily basis have come, you know, by ship, especially in Australia where we are major maritime trading nation, both for imports and exports. So yeah, it's a hard to abate sector because we are spread across the world, but in that way as well, because we know we are 3% of the, you know, the global emissions, we need to figure out a way to reduce that as well. And so different countries are at different stages. The EU, not surprisingly, is quite far ahead in this stage, so they have FuelEU. That was put into place at the beginning of 2025, so it's been going for nearly two years now. So that regulation is focused on emission reduction, so it starts off small, 2% by 2030, then it goes to 6% by 2035, and then it basically drops off the cliff from there. So there's regulation now for vessels not just trading within Europe, but outside of Europe that are coming into Europe as well, so inter and intra-Europe. So that sort of regulation, it does have cascading effects to this side of the world as well. I have spoken to consumers or exporters who are sending goods to the UK, and they're sending grain over there, and there are regulations now in the UK that you have to show exactly what your emissions are across your supply chain. So that comes all the way back here to the Australian grain exporter who's like, "Oh, right, now I need to figure out actually how my -" So scope 3 emissions, yeah ... yeah, what my scope 3 is. Yeah. And that's not easy if you're trying to figure that out. So we're seeing those regulations, but those are having trickle-down effects over here. Closer to home, I mean, we're seeing a lot happening in China. China is miles ahead at the moment. They've been doing a lot in terms of fuel production, ammonia, methanol. They're also bunkering as well. They're building ships in this space. They've really sort of grabbed this with both hands and running with it. They see the opportunity on sort of the economic side of things, but they also see the opportunity internally as well, fuel security for one, food security as well. So we're definitely seeing a lot of traction happening there. And then here in Australia, we're a little, little further behind, but we do have some exciting projects. You know, the things that are happening. It was really exciting actually recently, Canadian shipping lines, they had a vessel come in, the MV Yampu. She's a really cool vessel. She is the first, I have to get this right, battery-powered self-unloading bulk carrier in the world. So that's pretty exciting. Battery-powered self-unloading Unloading bulk carrier. Wow, okay. Yeah. Yeah, so that is the first one of its kind, and she's here in Australia, so you know, there is innovation happening. There's also the green shipping corridor from Australia to East Asia. It's an iron ore green shipping corridor from Western Australia. That is doing very well as well. There's a great consortium of players working together to basically bring in ammonia-powered vessels to transport that iron ore as well, and that's been five years in the making, and those vessels are on their way. So, you know, there are things happening here in Australia, but there are other things happening further away as well that do have- consequences for us too. Australia's Position & Barriers Yeah. Great, great stuff. Great to hear that so much is being done. And you said that Australia's quite a long way behind some of the other countries in the world. What do you think have been the biggest barriers holding back Australia? I think the biggest one is always cost The cost gap is enormous. When you are looking at alternative fuels, the greener fuels of the future, you're talking two to four times more expensive than the traditional fuels that we use today. But like anything with a cost gap, we would've seen that with electric vehicles, with solar, and that has changed a lot because, of course, we've had more demand for those products, and therefore, there's more supply, and the cost goes down. Right now, we're kind of at the beginning of that journey. Like, you know, th- for a few years now, we've been sort of ramping up. The technology is, is there. It's also coming. So it's very much now about, okay, how do we get that demand there as well and make sure that the supply is there to support that too? So yeah, that's probably the biggest, biggest challenge that we have, but there are ways that, as I said, you can show examples that that has changed across other sectors, so why not this one as well? Operational Efficiency & Wind-Assisted Propulsion Yes. Yeah, so very early on, on in that cost curve. Even before we start talking about changing fuels, how much of the emissions reductions can come from things outside of that, so either making the vessels or the shipping networks and making ships more efficient and, you know, making those networks more efficient? Yeah, no, there's some great work being done in terms of the efficiency piece. So yeah, we're definitely seeing some really interesting ways to make vessels more efficient. So there's sort of the data side of it, so actually looking at, like, what is my vessel actually burning, and how much is that costing me, and where could I potentially reduce those costs? And some of that is just by sometimes, you know, changing the route a little bit that you're following or maybe not going as fast. I mean, that sounds, you know, logical, but, you know, at the end of the day- ... sometimes, you know, ships have to speed up to get to ports. So it, it's working with ports as well to make sure that you are arriving when you need to be arriving and not in advance so you're burning more fuel. Then you see efficiencies around sort of the type of hull shape that you've got or the type of paint you put on a ship. We're also putting sails back on ships as well. So as of August this year, there are over 90 vessels that have wind-assisted propulsion on them. They're mostly bulk carriers, but it's really cool to see sails back on ships again. So, you know, that's great to see, and there's more on order as well. Um- Yeah, that's really interesting. So what size and scale are the, uh, are the sails then? I've not, not actually seen anything like that. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're large. I would definitely- Yeah ... recommend going out and having a look at, well, Cargill, for example. They were the one, sort of some of the first looking into the wind-assisted propulsion. They put those on their bulk carriers. That was a few years ago, and they've definitely seen efficiency savings from that. I mean, I do know a lot of, you know, when you are thinking about efficiencies, you're not usually thinking 1 or 2%. You're trying to, you know, for something like 6, 7, 8%, and that's very possible. So, you know, some, one of the stats that I found recently was that energy efficiency measures and operational changes could reduce fleet energy by up to 16% by 2030 and by 25 to 28% by 2050. So that's from- Pretty significant amount. Yeah ... yeah, that's from one of the recent DNV maritime reports. I highly recommend having a look at it. It's got some fantastic stats in it and information, and that's a huge saving when you think about how much fuel is costing, particularly at the moment with the fuel crisis as well. But I also haven't mentioned batteries and vessel electrification- So I'm a, I'm a big fan. And then onshore power as well, so actually plugging in a vessel when she comes to berth so that she isn't running anything on board. She's not running on her engine, she's basically just running on a battery, and that reduces noise pollution, air pollution, so you're definitely, you're seeing that mandated. And actually, in Europe, by 2030, for passenger and container vessels over 5,000 gross tons, they will have to plug in. Okay. So we're seeing that sort of technology come into play as well. So there's a lot happening on the efficiency side and sort of that next stage before we even talk about the future fuels. Batteries & Vessel Electrification Yes. Yep. And on the battery side, is there a sweet spot in terms of the size of the vessel that it will go up to or? Yeah. I mean, at this point, I don't have the exact figures in my head, but we aren't talking deep-sea shipping. We're not talking our big- So shorter routes ... our big bulk carriers- Yeah. Yes, yeah going from Australia up to, uh, East Asia. Yeah, it's more shorter routes, so definitely for, I mean, within a port, pilot boats, tugs, launches, anything like that can definitely be electrified. Ferries, I mean, we're here in Brisbane, the Brisbane River, we can electrify the ferries that run up and down the Brisbane River, so there's definitely opportunity there. There's also coastal shipping that happens to a small amount here, too. We could definitely look at that. But for bigger deep-sea shipping, we're not there yet. I mean, you could put batteries on one of those ships, but there wouldn't be any cargo, so- ... that wouldn't really work. I don't think the P&L bottom line would look very good. But there is more and more work being done. And once again, China has been taking some great strides in this, and I think we're getting up to, like, maybe 1,600 kilometers now with, like, a decent-sized container ship. So it's, um, not out of the realm of possibilities, but it won't be the game changer for deep-sea shipping. Future Fuels: Ammonia, Methanol, Hydrogen & LNG Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. So future fuels, we're talking about ammonia, methanol, hydrogen, LNG. We've spoken about electric vehicles. Yep. Ethanol as well. Ethanol. That's the new kid on the block. Yep. Yep. Perhaps we can talk about them each in turn and yeah, what are some of the kind of advantages of each, and then what are some of the either risks or challenges with developing each of those? Yes. So where would you like to start? Let's go ammonia. Okay. Start with ammonia. So ammonia is an interesting one. It's very much at the early stages of adoption. It definitely has the opportunity to, yeah, reduce greenhouse gas emissions to the levels that we need them to get to, and there is emerging tech around that. There are vessels on the water, so there are a few already. Only a few, but there are more on order as well. The biggest challenge with ammonia is that it's toxic. It's very toxic. So it's making sure that if we are using it, if we are burning it in vessels, we are bunkering it, that it is safe. It's not only safe for those on board the vessels, which is very important, but also for those on shore as well. So ammonia, yeah, like anything, has its positives and negatives, but it's definitely one of those fuels that it's being looked at for the, the deep-sea shipping for those longer trade routes- Yes ... because it has that ability to reduce emissions. Yep, yep. And methanol? Yeah, methanol is definitely is safer in that sense compared to ammonia, and we are seeing a lot more methanol vessels out in the water now than ammonia. So I think the latest stat I looked at was that there are 154 vessels operating on methanol, with many more on order at the moment. That definitely seems to be the fuel of choice for sort of more the container ships and the passenger ships and ships like that. In saying that, we, uh, we haven't got methanol production up and running here in Australia yet, but we're definitely, I think, a bit further ahead on the ammonia production side of things. But once again, like, another challenge for methanol is the cost, which we've already talked about, and of course the infrastructure that needs to be put in place. You know, it's not just the cost of the fuel, it's all the infrastructure that needs to be put as well. I mean, that comes across all of them, to be honest. Yes. Yep. Yeah. And it seems like, yeah, hydrogen attracted a lot of attention- It did ... probably four or five years ago, and- Yep ... there doesn't seem to be too many organizations pursuing that now, and that could be either compressed hydrogen or, or potentially liquid hydrogen. So yeah, either burning those or putting it through- Mm through a fuel cell. So yeah. Are there still organizations that are pursuing that route? There's a little bit of work being done on hydrogen still, and when I say a little bit, like, there is work being done on it, but a little bit in comparison to where we were a couple of years ago. But it's definitely one of those fuels that we can absolutely still look at as a possibility. I think for shipping, it's d- we were seeing it in sort of smaller vessels right now, ferries and things like that, so a bit more of like a pilot case. There is the opportunity for it to go into the bigger vessels, but, you know, it does take up more room. Actually, all of these fuels are, yeah, need more space, which means then you reduce the capacity of the cargo that you can, that you can carry. So then, you know, there's that balancing again of the bottom line in terms of, yeah, the operating costs and what you can actually get on board the vessel. So yeah, hydrogen is definitely still being looked at. I mean, I've even been talking to people about, you know, what, uh, not just on the shipping side, but on the transport side of things as well. So it's good that it hasn't completely stopped. There's definitely work still being done on it, but it is slower than it was before. Yes. Yeah. And I've included LNG within that, but yeah, for me, that's kind of like sort of an interim, and it's good that the organizations are pursuing how do we get down the decarbonization curve. So yeah, obviously the supply chains are pretty significant there, so seems like that will be kind of an easy, uh, an easier step change. Yeah. I think all of this is a transition, right? So when we talk about operational efficiency, you know, that's, as I said, just looking at the data of a vessel and figuring out ways that you can improve your fuel consumption to changing the shape of your ship or putting, you know, wind on it or, you know, sails, sorry, or putting solar on it, et cetera. You know, those are all the efficiencies that can help you get part of the way. LNG is sort of the next step after that. Biofuels also play a role in this as well. They get you part of the way in the transition, but they don't get you the whole way. So yes, we do see a lot of LNG vessels out there on order today and a lot more planned as well. So yeah, it is a transition to the future, but it doesn't get us the whole way. It'll be the fuel for a while. Yeah. Do you expect a multi-fuel industry then? It's looking that way. Yeah. Everything is on the table right now. There is no silver bullet right now for any of this, and I don't think there will be because every trade lane that vessels are on and every vessel on that trade lane is different. We have, you know, for Australia, for example, we have a lot of container ships coming in. We have a lot of bulk carriers. We have a lot of RoRo, roll on, roll off vessels where you, you see things like cars coming in on. Tankers which bring in our fuel, 95% of our fuel, so you know, we have a lot of different types of vessels coming here from a lot of different countries. And so depending on how short those routes are, how long they are, what the bunkering availability is as well, that's going to be a big player in this. So you know, whether you have to go by somewhere like Singapore or Hong Kong or you can bunker somewhere else. Yeah, it means that everyone's looking this a little bit differently, and so there isn't sort of one fuel that is going to win it all. Economics & Green Premium Every fuel is going to have its place in this game. Yep. Let's talk about the economics and regulation around it then. Mm-hmm. One of the biggest challenge that you alluded to earlier, or you mentioned earlier, was the, the cost gap. So I think you said two to four times the comparable non-green fuel. So who ultimately pays that green premium then? Is it the ship owners, the charterers, cargo owners, or the consumers? I guess everyone is going to be paying it, so initially there will be a bill that comes through to, well, to the ship owners or the charterers, who's ever looking after the vessel, and then most likely that will get passed on. Passed, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Passed on to then the cargo owners, which eventually then gets passed on to the consumers, people like you and I. So yeah, at this point these costs will be passed through. I can't imagine anyone being able to take on two to four times the cost at this stage. There are definitely companies out there that are taking on a portion of the cost, which is great to see, but that's sort of minor reductions at this point. That's when you're looking at biofuels or energy efficiency or maybe even LNG, that's not the whole way. So when we're talking in the ammonias, the methanols of the world, that is when it gets very expensive. So that's where, yeah, we need the demand to really start to push for the supply so we can bring that cost gap down, but we also need the regulation side of it too, to bring the stick and the carrot- as well. You know, the opportunities that come with regulation, especially for the first movers as well. You know, those that then can get the funding. There seems so much uncertainty at the moment, so what is the role of the IMO then, and where are things at with that discussion in terms of that, you know, global regulation? IMO Net Zero Framework & Regulation So the International Maritime Organization, the IMO, is a collective body of countries from across the world, and they have been putting in regulation for shipping for a long time now. The one that's on the table at the moment is the net zero framework that was tabled last year at one of the MEPC meetings that they were having, and this is very much to put a global regulation in place for shipping to reduce emissions by 2050. There's already an IMO strategy out there around this, which was adopted in 2023, the greenhouse gas strategy, but this is sort of like the follow on from that. This is sort of the action that needs to be taken. That was a strategy, this is what we're going to actually do about it. That is still very much up in the air as to what we eventually agree on, and the consensus right now is that countries do want to transition, they do want to reduce emissions. But how do you do that in a way that is just and equitable? That's a word that comes up a lot, to make sure that, you know, those countries that potentially can't afford to put in the infrastructure that is needed are supported. So it's sort of making sure that everyone has a, a seat at the table. Mm-hmm. And we level that playing field. So it's, yeah, it's important that that happens, but also that then there's enough funding and money to be able to drive that transition as well. So as I said, it's, it's still a work in progress. There'll be another MEPC meeting early December to have further discussions about this, and then it will go into next year, I'm sure, as well, where hopefully we'll be coming to a vote at some point in 2027 as to, yeah, whether this moves forward or not. But it's the first of its kind, and shipping historically is a, is a slow-moving beast. We are quite risk-averse. Yeah, we're historically, you know, slower, slower than other industries. But so for us to be taking this regulation on and trying to do something as a first of its kind is, is a very big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Are you optimistic? I am optimistic, I think because we still see the consensus, especially earlier this year after it did try and go to a vote last year, and it was decided to postpone. The fact that there is still consensus in the last couple of meetings has been really good, both at the MEPC, but also at the ISWG, the intersessional working groups that happen before, like, sort of the big meetings. There is still really good work being done, and I think right now they're coloring in the framework, is kind of how I put it. Like, they've got this draft text, now they're adding the context to it. And that context helps, right? Because the more informed you are, the more of a decision or an informed decision you can make, right? And for some countries, it's very difficult to actually know where, where they stand on these things and what they should be doing. So I think that actually the work that's being done is, is really good. Yes. Yeah, fantastic. Let's bring things a bit closer to home here in Australia. So Australia's not currently a bunkering nation, but how could our renewable resources contribute to the decarbonization of the maritime sector? Australia's Renewable Energy Opportunity So there's a few things happening in the world today that I think gives off Australia a really unique opportunity sort of to move forward in that future fuel space. So yes, we aren't a bunkering nation. We could potentially become one of the bunkering nations. We're never going to be the biggest like Singapore, but we have enough, enough import and export here, enough vessels coming through that we could absolutely provide that service, and we have the ability to make the fuels. I mean, we have the, the land space to be able to do it. We have projects already, you know, that, as I mentioned, the Pilbara is doing a lot in the ammonia space. You know, there's methanol production being looked at on the East Coast. Hammer is one of them, Hammer Energy, and then there's Abel Energy. Like, you know, those companies are looking at methanol production, so there is opportunity. There are things happening. And then when you think about it too, there's the opportunity to also export those fuels to places like Singapore to bunkering hubs, so that creates another economic stream for Australia as well. So whilst, you know, things diversify here in terms of iron ore, coal, and all those sorts of exports, there's another economic stream there. And then there's also the fuel security piece, so actually having fuel here in Australia for us, for, you know, to become a bit more sovereign, to have a less reliance on all the fuel that we import as well. I think those are, you know, three really big things. And then there's the food security part of things as well. You know, ammonia is- Part of what makes fertilizer. Yeah. And we need fertilizer here in Australia, and we import a lot of it, as we've all learnt over the last few months. So I think there's lots of ways that we can become more than just a bunkering hub. I think we have a lot of potential with what, yeah, the future fuels could look like and what we could do with them here. MERNAP & Fortescue Green Shipping Corridor Yes. And Australia's got its own emissions action plan, and what do you make of that action plan, and what needs to happen to turn that strategy into actual projects from here, then? So I believe you're talking about the MERNAP. Yeah. The Maritime Emissions Reduction National Action Plan. So that was released last month, which was great to see. So it's really great that we've actually now got something in writing, got something from government to say, "Okay, this is the way forward. This is what we're looking to do." What it does is it lays out some of the things that are happening already, like there's been some great funding work that's been put on the table. There's funding rounds still happening as well, like Hydrogen Headstart, so there are things already in the works. It talks about sort of what will come next, too. So it's quite focused around the domestic market, though, of Australia, so... And whilst we do have vessels in Australia moving around domestically, most of them are quite small compared to the vessels that come in and out internationally. Therefore, it's a, it's a definitely a step in the right direction, which is great to see, but it's also what do we do about the international vessels that are trading here as well? How do we make sure that those start to reduce emissions, and is it something like a fuel EU that we look at putting in place or the IMO Net Zero framework? This is what it will do, right? But until that is in place, is there something in the interim that could act as sort of like a Yeah, a gap filler. But the MRNAP is definitely a step in the right direction in terms of having a plan, knowing where we're heading to, knowing that government is serious on this, and that recognizing that there are things that we need to be doing here. But as I said, it is domestic-focused, and we need to also think bigger picture in terms of international, because we are a maritime trading nation. Yes. Yep, yep. And it would be kind of remiss of us not to mention Fortescue. So they've been investing heavily in ammonia-capable shipping, so yeah, if you could talk to that. Sure. So GMF, we actually lead the task force for the Australia-East Asia Iron Ore Green Shipping Corridor, and Fortescue is one of the members of the task force. So they've been doing some fabulous work in terms of the, yeah, ammonia space and bringing in ammonia-powered vessels. So as mentioned, they've actually chartered 12 vessels from CMB.tech, of which the first few are going to be here in the next few months is the plan, with the first one actually doing a ship-to-ship bunkering trial in Port Hedland in the next few weeks. So it's great to see that the work that they have been doing, the investment that they've been making, has led to this. But this is not just about Fortescue. This is a consortium of players. You know, there are many that make up this task force. There are many that work together to make this happen. So this is also Yara from the fuel side of things. This is Pil reports from the port side of things. You know, there's lots of players in this game. And then of course, you know, there are other companies, big mining companies out there too, that have strategies around reducing emissions that are here in Australia, like Rio Tinto and BHP. So this is a, a collective, a consortium of players that make this happen. This, we cannot go alone to decarbonize. We must go together. Yeah. So it's everyone across the value chain has to be a part of this to make it happen. But yes, Fortescue has definitely been leading the charge. Yes, yeah. And green shipping corridors are, are effectively like an ecosystem or a pilot project to bring all th- those consortium members together. Yes. So they're basically, yeah, they're a test bed. So what we look at is how can we get a vessel using a future fuel on a specific trade route. And this is a great example because iron ore is a massive export commodity for Australia, but it's also, yeah, we have... This is a very big trade lane in terms of trade lanes across the world. So- The fact that we can then look at vessels that can move on that route that can be powered with a different fuel is really exciting. But it's all about, yeah, creating that test bed environment where every, every player involved across the value chain is working together to the same, yeah, to the same goal- Mm-hmm which is reducing emissions for shipping, and then being able to scale that. And this one is unique in the sense that we can scale it, you know, to a huge amount because there are so much trade of iron ore between Australia and East Asia. So it gives us a lot of opportunity for scaling in the future, which is important. When we talk about this, when we talk about supply and demand, this is a great opportunity. And how long has that green shipping corridor been running? The consortium started five years ago. So the consortium of players, uh, met, and it was decided that this made sense. There's a lot of process that goes into deciding where you, where you do a green shipping corridor, what does it look like, who are the players, what is the vessel type, what is the fuel type, et cetera. So this was what was decided among the consortium members, so they've been working towards this goal for five years. So the fact that this is becoming a reality is a really big deal. Yeah. And have there been some key learnings over that period? I think there's probably lots of key learnings. Yeah. Lots of I mean- Yeah. What, what, what are some of the key, key learnings then that's happened? I think, you know, from someone who's coming into this sort of quite a lot later on, I think from what I see as one of the biggest reasons this is working well is the players that are involved. We have a consortium of companies that are working together to make a big change, and yes, and some of them are competitors, and so it makes conversations very interesting when you're all in a room together, but at the end of the day, they all have the same end goal, is that they want to transition. They see an opportunity in this, they see a business opportunity in this, and they're moving forward. So I think that's probably the biggest thing that I take away from it, is that this happens when a group of people want to do something and want to make it happen. And, you know, at different times, some step away a little bit, others lean in more. But as a whole, like, that's what makes, yeah, that people actually... You know, and they, they put their money where their mouth is as well. They're actually saying like, "We're gonna do this," and they actually show up and do it. Yeah. That's great. Looking ahead, what development in maritime decarbonization are you watching most closely then for the next 24 months? Looking Ahead: Next 24 Months & 5-10 Years Well, the IMO Net Zero framework is definitely the- Okay ... the policy one. Um, yeah, that would be on the, the international side of things. Definitely looking more to what China is doing as well, because they are definitely leading the charge in terms of the fuel production, the shipbuilding, so sort of what else comes out of there. And then closer to home here in Australia, I'm excited that we have all of these opportunities, but it's what are we gonna do with those and when are we gonna do something with those? I think we're in an interesting period right now with food, fuel security issues, with the geopolitics of the world, and realizing that we need to probably become a little bit more independent, that this is a great opportunity to do something. So I think it'd be really interesting to see what traction we get with MRNAP, but then what also traction do we get from some of the funding rounds that are, you know, being announced in the next few months as well, and where does that lead us? And then, yeah, this green shipping corridor as well. What, what are we, you know, some of the learnings that will come from that, and then how do we scale that as well? So I think, yeah, there's stuff happening internationally, but there's also some really interesting things at home as well. Yeah. Are there any parts of the transition that aren't getting enough attention at the moment? I think everyone is working on different things, and that's where it becomes difficult sometimes for companies kind of to figure out what to focus on and where to go and what you should be doing because there is so many different things happening. I think everywhere is focusing on what makes sense for them now. I think for Australia it would be nice to see more done in the electrification space, I think, and the onshore power space. We build the biggest electric ferries in the world. Incat builds them in Tasmania, and we export them overseas, so maybe we could build some of them here as well. Yeah, so I know that they are looking to do that. I think Sydney is looking at electric ferries, and I think Brisbane has talked about it as well. So, you know, that sort of technology is there. It's been proven, and we have the ability to build them here ourselves as well, which is, you know, kind of... It gives us the whole opportunity to be able to do this. So I'd like to see more in that space, sort of as that initial sort of transition, and then the, yeah, continued work on the, the future fuels. Yes, yeah. And on the Green Shipping Corridor, that sounds like it's progressing in the right direction. I was reading in the report that there's now 84, is it, Green Shipping Corridor? There are actually more than that now. Yeah, that was the report, yeah, from last year. I think this is the GMF's, um, annual Green Shipping Corridor report. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's great, by the way. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend. It's a very interesting read. It's not too long. It's got lots of visuals as well, which I like. But yes, as of last year, there were 84. There are more now in the world, so there will be more reports coming out about that in the next few months. And, um, yeah, keep an eye out for sort of some of, yeah, our work that we're doing on that. But yeah, those are definitely developing, but of course a lot of those are in their preliminary stages, so very few are as far along as the Australia-East Asia Iron Ore Green Shipping Corridor. If I can be biased, I think we are actually the furthest along, so, but there are a few- That's great to hear. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There are a few others that are up there on the list, too, which is, yeah, which is where we want things to be. Yeah, yep, and we can put a link to that report in the show notes- That would be great as well. So yeah, in- interestingly, and again, we were just talking before we started the recording, so out of those corridors, methanol seems to be in the lead, so 27 corridors, followed by ammonia, 23, battery electric, 12, methane and biomethane, 12, hydrogen, 11, advanced biofuels, 3, and nuclear, there's, uh- Oh, there's always an outlier. Yeah. Well, it's great, great to see that all avenues are being explored. Oh, absolutely, and I think we're only gonna see more of these going forward, as I said, because they're a great test bed to see w- you know, what can be done with a consortium of players on a, a specific route with specific vessels. Yep, yep. Outside of anything that we've already discussed, what else needs to happen in the next sort of five to 10 years? Is there anything that you can put your finger to? I do think regulation plays a very big role in this, and this is where the IMO net zero framework is very important because what we would prefer is a global regulation rather than every country having its own regulation. That would make it very difficult for trade because you're going to then have lots of different policies that you have to adhere to, and as I've mentioned, shipping goes everywhere. It moves 80-plus percent of global trade, so, you know, it would make it very challenging. So I think, yeah, the, uh, global regulation is definitely a key. It's definitely sort of that enabler to driving the transition quicker, and in, yeah, particularly if we wanna reach the goal of net zero by around 2050. And I think it's supporting the first movers. There are companies out there that are making a difference, that they are giving this a go, and they are showing that this can be done. This is not so much a technology issue anymore. It's actually about now the people side of things, and how do you get more players on the table so that you level the playing field? How do you then g- also get, you know, that support from government as well? Like, both go hand-in-hand. Industry needs to move, but we also need the support from government as well. So I think the first movers are going to be a very interesting one to watch, and hopefully, you know, they'll be some ones that really sort of take this far and give us the opportunity for the next players to come behind them. But I think, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for them, and yeah, kudos to them. Yeah. And yeah, and as I said, from the global regulation side, too. Any of those first movers that y- you can suggest that the listeners maybe wanna look into further? Anyone doing anything particularly exciting? Well, we've talked about, I guess, Fortescue and Canadian shipping lines here in Australia, and Incat as well on the battery side of things, but I think some of the bigger, you know, other companies around the world, CMB.Tech is one in terms of the vessel side. MOL, NYK in Japan, they've been doing a lot on the transition piece. And those governments as well, so Japanese and Korean governments, Chinese governments are doing quite a lot of looking at their regulations and putting policies in place, so that's really exciting to see. So yeah, I think there's lot... And the EU, of course. The EU is definitely leading the charge in terms of the regulation side of things. They're also producing fuel, so there's a lot of lessons to be learnt out of that instead of, you know, reinventing the wheel. We might as well take those lessons here, which will hopefully mean that we can go a little bit faster as well. Closing Thoughts Yeah. Fantastic. Any closing thoughts that you'd like to share with the audience? I think the biggest one is that maritime decarbonization is not just something that's being talked about anymore. It's something that's actually happening. I feel like the train has left the station, like the transition is happening whether we like it or not. We are on sort of, we are on that journey. So it's about trying to get people on board those first sort of cars instead of waiting till later on till they have more certainty of investment or regulation. It's actually saying like, "This is happening, and we're already seeing the impacts of that, so what can you do to actually contin- you know, to move forward if you aren't already or to continue to move forward?" That's great. I'm sure the listeners are gonna love the episode. So thank you sh- very much for sharing your knowledge, and we look forward to hearing more about how this progresses over the next few years. Thanks, Andy. Appreciate it. Thanks, Jenny. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Exploring Clean Energy. I hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. I'm keen to continue to bring you the best experts and most interesting projects. So if you have an exciting story to share, please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or email. I'm Andy Marsland, and hopefully see you next time