The Startup CPG Podcast


In this episode of the Startup CPG Podcast, host Daniel Scharff sits down with Eve Ackerley, founder of Evie's Snacks, and Cody Ponsler from Belmark, one of the most recommended packaging partners in the Startup CPG community, to talk through how packaging evolves as a brand grows. Evie's Snacks makes direct-from-farm pecan snacks with only a third of the sugar of leading brands, sourced from Eve's family farms in South Texas.


Eve started at farmer's markets with a simple craft bag and hand-applied black and white stickers before eventually moving to a fully custom printed pouch with Belmark. Along the way, she landed a DSD deal into 50 stores in the Northeast that forced a faster packaging upgrade than she expected, and got a piece of buyer feedback ("I thought this was laundry detergent") that reshaped how she thinks about packaging as a selling tool.


Daniel, Eve, and Cody dig into the operational and strategic decisions behind pouch design: window versus no window, matte versus gloss, sizing, and why 50% of the brands Cody works with change their packaging art between their first and second production runs.


Listen in as they discuss:

  • Why Evie's Snacks only needs a third of the sugar of other brands (hint: it starts with fresh, high-quality pecans)
  • The evolution from craft bags with hand-applied stickers to a fully custom printed pouch
  • The "three seconds and two questions" packaging rule Eve learned from a mentor in the potato chip industry
  • Understanding the pecan category: where it's merchandised and why there's no dominant national player yet
  • Why Eve chose photography over a clear window, and the shelf-life tradeoff behind that decision
  • How a sudden DSD deal into 50 Northeast stores forced Evie's Snacks to upgrade its packaging faster than planned
  • The buyer feedback that stuck with Eve: "I thought this was laundry detergent"
  • Why Cody recommends founders put unfinished packaging in front of real buyers before finalizing it
  • The overwhelming number of packaging choices founders face, and how Cody narrows them down to fit the brand story
  • Why 50% of the brands Cody works with change their packaging art between their first and second production runs
  • How distributor shelf-life requirements (often 75% remaining) directly shape packaging decisions
  • Evie's Snacks' next chapter: nationwide at Sprouts and exploring new pack sizes


Episode Links:


Belmark has helped hundreds of small- to medium-sized CPG brands like yours solve packaging challenges - and they want to help you too. You can meet directly with one of their packaging experts and talk through whatever you're tackling.


https://www.belmark.com/startup-cpg/


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Show Links:

  • Transcripts of each episode are available on the Transistor platform that hosts our podcast here (click on the episode and toggle to "Transcript" at the top)
  • Join the Startup CPG Slack community (35K+ members and growing!)
  • Follow @startupcpg
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  • Questions or comments about the episode? Email podcast@startupcpg.com
  • Episode music by Super Fantastics

Creators and Guests

Host
Daniel Scharff
Founder/CEO, Startup CPG

What is The Startup CPG Podcast?

The top CPG podcast in the world, highlighting stories from founders, buyer spotlights, highly practical industry insights - all to give you a better chance at success.

Eve Ackerley
We kind of expanded on some of the earlier designs for Evie’s and we got the pouch made. We put it in front of a buyer for a category review and the feedback we got was, oh, I thought this was laundry detergent, which wasn't, which is, you know, not really close to roasted pecans at all. So I think one of those earlier learnings for us was, hey, you probably do know a lot about your product, but like, maybe go ahead and spend the time to put it in front of some buyers before you finalize it because they're going to be incredibly helpful for. Did my packaging do the selling that it needs to?

00:48
Cody Ponsler
When you're first launching, things generally change. I mean, I would say 50% of the people that I've worked with in startup CPG, their art hasn't been the same. On run number one to run number two because, I mean, they figure something out, they're new to this, they go with a co packer. That coat packer didn't work out. I had to change this. So really helping them, like, this is the right quantity to go through. I mean, too many times that people make those mistakes.

01:16
Daniel Scharff
Welcome to the Startup CPG podcast. I have a news flash for you. However good you think your packaging is right now, it's going to change. It does for everyone, and that's okay. Something might work well in the early days, but as you grow, you get feedback, you refine your branding, you learn what's important to your consumers, and you adapt. On today's podcast, we have Evie’s Snacks talking about all the things they had to change as they grew first from farmers markets into independent stores and then into national retail. We're also joined by our partners at Belmark. They probably work with more brands from our community on packaging than just about anyone, and they've seen it all. If you want to chat with them about stand up pouches, labels or cartons, you can go to Belmark.com it's in the show notes.

01:57
Daniel Scharff
Or hit up Cody Ponsler in our slack. He's always there. He will respond to you right away. All right, here we go. All right, welcome everyone to the podcast. I'm so excited about today's discussion because I recently talked to a founder of a company that you all know who had recently expanded into mass and convenience and was making very substantial changes to the packaging because the old packaging just wasn't going to play once you got out of the natural world. And it really made me think about what are those changes that people make over time? Because I think every Founder, when they get their first beautiful packaging, thinks, no, this is it. I know everyone else has to change their packaging over time, but not me, because this is perfect. How could it not be?

02:42
Daniel Scharff
But then inevitably everybody does change it because you learn things and you got things wrong and you get suggestions from buyers and feedback from consumers. So today we're going to talk a lot about what that journey is like for one particular brand. So I'm really happy that we have Eve from Evie’s here and also our friends from Belmark, the experts in packaging. And we're just going to talk a little bit about the brand and what those things are that make you change over time and what are the impacts and what can brands learn from it. So, Evie, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. First of all, can you just tell Everybody all about Evie’s?

03:15
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, absolutely, Daniel. Thanks for having me. We are Evie's Furs direct from Farm Pecan Snacks. We focus on fun, nostalgic flavors. They're crunchy, snackable, only have one third the total sugar of leading brands. And the best part is they're all sourced from my family farms in South Texas.

03:34
Daniel Scharff
They're so good. First of all, everybody knows it. Anyone who's had it is like, damn, they're so good. You guys are such a good time at trade shows too. We love the cowboy hats.

03:44
Eve Ackerley
We have fun.

03:46
Daniel Scharff
You're also, you have a special place in our editor Caitlin's heart because her daughter is named Edie and she loves your products. So that's just a double bonus. But how is it possible that it tastes so good and it only has a third the sugar of the competitors? Because it's amazing.

04:02
Eve Ackerley
Well, you know, if you start with really fresh, high quality pecans, you don't need to put a ton of sugar on them. That's kind of the secret. And we do have a double bake process to get that, you know, really nice, crunchy texture.

04:14
Daniel Scharff
What a good answer. Just use high quality pecans. All right, that's what we like to hear. Beautiful. Okay, cool. Cody, I'm coming to you. Thank you so much for joining us. We love having Belmark in the community has always been the most recommended packaging expert on these kind of stand up pouches that are so common in this category. So Cody, give us the intro.

04:35
Cody Ponsler
Thanks for having me, Daniel. Hey guys, you probably see me bouncing in and out of the Slack channel. I just love the collaboration on there. I love making the connections, whether it be finding a designer, a co packer, you're looking for packaging even if you're not just quite sure what your question is and we're leading to shoot it to me. So happy to help you guys and really excited to be part of the startup CPG community.

04:57
Daniel Scharff
And this is true. You can hit up Cody with pretty much any packaging question in there and he will help you and he knows who else can help you also. So, Cody, thank you. We've been tag brothers in the slack for a long time. Always tagging you into the to all the questions. Okay, so Evie, coming back to you because you guys have come so far, I wonder, can you wind the clock back all the way to the beginning and talk to me about here's how we launched and here's how we thought about packaging in that moment?

05:23
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, absolutely. You know, we really started simple and were just wanting to learn, not really optimizing for perfection in any way. So pre retail, were really just at farmer's markets, focused on D2C and trying to learn, you know, what our customers cared about and how to talk to them on the packaging. So we really. Our first packaging was simple. It was just a standard craft bag with labels and they were black and white. A little bit of time afterwards, you know, we brought in a freelance designer. We said, hey, maybe we should have a logo. Let's create a small mood board. Let's start to get a feel for what the brand could be, what are some of the colors we want to bring in. And at that point, we designed custom stickers that we kept applying to those craft bags.

06:05
Eve Ackerley
So we stuck with that for quite a while. And we really wanted just to keep learning from our customers, keep getting feedback. Eventually we got to the point where we said, okay, I think it's time for a fully custom printed pouch, which is where we started to work with Belmark. And I can't say we knew that the custom printed pouch would be great for just shelf life, for protecting the product, for like the ultimate customer experience. But we still had a lot to learn, what that bag looked like, and we didn't come out with our packaging we have today. You know, took some time before we did a full rebrand. So some advice and food for thought is definitely, you know, don't rush it.

06:42
Eve Ackerley
Really take your time, let the packaging evolve and keep it simple in the beginning because a lot of things are going to change. You know, how you discuss the describe the flavor or like claims or certifications you want to get. So we really took our time there. And, you know, when we got to doing this larger rebrand with pulp and wire, were much more informed about what the packaging, we should be prioritizing on the pack.

07:04
Daniel Scharff
So let's just dig into your current packaging a little bit because I think for me, I love branding that is self explanatory and I give these examples all the time. But brands like yours and just iced tea, where it doesn't require a lot of consumer education, you can just look at it and you immediately know what it is. It takes you one second to understand what that product is and it looks good and you want it and you take it. That's the kind of stuff for me that can really stand on its own without all the, you know, consumers understanding. What is this thing? What is the, what are the adaptogenic properties going to do to me? Like all this stuff, you don't need the story behind it's just that looks good, I'll have that. So, right.

07:42
Daniel Scharff
Like if for anyone who hasn't seen the Evie’s packaging, definitely recommend that you check it out, go to their website, maybe throw an order their way. But it's sort of like a kind of refined, modern, old fashioned combo look with big fun bright colors. And so you have the Evie’s written in cursive and then in big bold Texas pecan and then the biggest ever picture of a beautiful high quality looking pecan and then the flavor name in big bold below that. It's so simple. And then honestly there are things around it that look good but they're not too distracting. But I probably don't even see most of those. When I look at the package, I just see this beautiful pecan staring me down saying eat me. And it just looks good. So just current, like what is your thought about the packaging overall now?

08:31
Daniel Scharff
Is that like what you're going for or what is it that you want to convey to people currently with the packaging?

08:37
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, no, it's a great question. I'm kind of a little bit echoing what you said, Daniel. We got some advice early on from a mentor of ours who works, has worked in potato chips for years. And he said, you know, you have three seconds with a consumer and they ask themselves two questions. One, do I want the product? And two, can I afford it? And so your packaging needs to solve for at least question number one of like do I want the product? And for us we have a lot of secondary feel good things. You know, it is a family farm, they're from Texas, it's women owned, non gmo. But first and foremost of like do you want pecans? Do you want a sack on pecans. And so we really needed to make.

09:14
Eve Ackerley
Have a really sexy pecan out there and make it really easy to understand these are snacking pecans. So certainly we wanted to make sure that photography, that visual there was as attractive and as appealing as possible. And part of what really stands out here is like that flavor profile. You know, it's. These are sweet roasted pecans and a little bit different than what you see in the nut snacking aisle. So we really wanted those flavor names to be big, to be bold and to be recognizable. So those were kind of some of the hierarchy on the pack is that big pecan, that flavor name. And then of course, you know, Evie’s Texas pecans for us. I love brands where you kind of know who's behind them and who's making the product.

09:56
Eve Ackerley
And so for us, that was a big part of it, of that as a connection point with people. And so that was also really important for us. But as you mentioned, you know, there's a lot of secondary things that some consumers who want to know more might be looking for non GMO or might be looking for a specific certification. So we have those. And. But they're definitely kind of priority number two. And you have to be through your strength. If you have too much, you actually, they might not pick up on any of that. So for front of pack, definitely hierarchy and priorities is really key and being restrained.

10:28
Daniel Scharff
Can you educate me a little bit on the pecan category? So you said, you mentioned the nut aisle. Like, can you explain, like, where is this typically merchandised in the store and what is the competitive landscape? Like, are there now national pecan players that you're going to encounter in the natural channel or verse in conventional stuff like that? Like, how does that work? Because that'll help us also understand the role of the packaging.

10:50
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, absolutely. Not in depth. So stacking nuts is. We usually sit kind of in snacking nuts, which is in the larger, like, salty snacks set. So depending on store, it might be a pretty big section. Sometimes you're sitting next to pretzels, popcorn, maybe chips. But for us, we're sitting with a lot of the other, like, snacking nut companies. So think planters, peanuts, wonderful pistachios, blue diamond almonds. Like, there are some pretty big names and some pretty big behemoths in the space. And a lot of the other nuts have a pretty defined household name. Not totally true for pecans, which is great for us. And so that's one thing. There's not a clear winner in the pecan space. Which is why you have to put your best foot forward. Packaging also having kind of the attributes consumers are looking for.

11:37
Eve Ackerley
But one of the other learnings that we had just early on is there are quite a few kind of savory roast savory mixes in the nut space, and not a ton of sweet leaning flavors. Luckily for us, they just go well with pecans. And so we really leaned into that. And as we've talked with buyers, for us, we've really made the pitch for, hey, this really grows in that category because we're giving consumers new ways to interact with that. So you could throw it on yogurt or salad, have it on a charcuterie board, or kind of a sweet afternoon treat. So it gives us a little bit of white space to play in. And it also helps grow the category, which is usually a win for a buyer.

12:14
Daniel Scharff
Okay, so that's super helpful. And when it comes to people discovering your product, if in the case where it's just sitting in a nut set, what would make somebody choose your product? Is it because they are there looking for pecans or they're just open to a nut in general and they see your packaging stand out on the shelf and like, oh, yeah, I wanted nuts, but I kind of also have a sweet tooth. And that looks great. Like, what is their journey the first time they discover you?

12:38
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, usually that, you know, you kind of talked about it like, this is someone who's already shopping for that aisle. They probably already are snacking on nuts throughout their week. It's already part of their kind of daily life. And we're trying to present them with, hey, this is a kind of a sweet leaning flavor. Like this does kind of satisfy other use cases that maybe your Smokehouse almonds hasn't satisfied. So definitely it is playing in that healthy indulgence category. But for us too, one of the places that we have had to educate consumers is pecans haven't been the most stackable beforehand. It's usually put in something, it's in a pecan pie, or it's in a baked good, or it's in ice cream. There haven't always been so many pecans sitting in that snacking nut set.

13:23
Eve Ackerley
Or if they have been, they're not super modern or kind of meeting the attributes that customers are looking for.

13:29
Daniel Scharff
I'm so hungry right now. Pecan pie. Pecan ice cream. Let's go.

13:35
Cody Ponsler
Okay.

13:36
Daniel Scharff
I think Cody's, you got to be starving now at this point. Let's tag you in here. So, Cody, you know this thing that I'm saying about Evie’s, and I honestly, I really think that any brand out there that's early, I really recommend that you look up this packaging. I really mean that. I think it is a great example of a brand that can play anywhere. And it's. They don't have to already be nationally recognized for somebody just to seat on the shelf and want to grab it. And the brand name is nice and short. It's not complicated. It's just like, pecans. Good, grab it. Okay. So I would love for people to take a look at it. But, Cody, what do you think? Do you feel that same way about it because you see so much packaging, right.

14:12
Daniel Scharff
Probably more pouches than anybody that I've ever known will see. So how does this compare to a lot of other stuff that you've seen? Do you see what I see in it or what are your thoughts?

14:21
Cody Ponsler
I couldn't agree more. Like, so Evie was talking about. And I'll everyone take this with a grain of salt. Cause I am not in marketing, right. When people ask me for their opinions or getting mine. But what I like to tell people is, Evie, you went with a great picture on the front of your packaging. Some people go through windows. It kind of is like, what is your product and what does the story that tells? Does it just look better on a window or on yours? You have a great photograph. You can see all the textures, all the sugars on the almond. Like, it looks really enticing. So that's something that I talk with people a lot. Like, do you have a product that you want to have seen there, or is it like, you know, like a beef jerky?

14:57
Cody Ponsler
You're going to want to see, like, hey, this jerky is fresh. Like, I think you made a great decision with a beautiful picture as opposed to a window right there.

15:04
Daniel Scharff
How did you make that decision, Evie? Because I think that's a really good point. I can't imagine your packaging without the photo on it. As good as it looks. Even just, I mean, that is what the pecans look like, but the photo just really makes you want to grab it. Did you guys go back and forth on that question? How did you think about it?

15:21
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, early on, we started with the craft bag, so we did have the window. Over time, it became more of kind of an operational decision or an operations decision. We, by not going with a window, we could get a pouch that just had more protection, could preserve that shelf life a little bit better by not having that, you know, clear plastic film. So ultimately, for us, it was you know, hey, it came down to operations and wanting to protect shelf life, protecting that. So I think people have to kind of know their product, know the category of what are those shelf lights you're trying to hit? What are you seeing other people doing in the space?

15:57
Eve Ackerley
And of course, like there's different questions of do you want to see the actual product and is that really important for your customer or is it more so just being representative of and meeting that expectation when they do open the bag?

16:09
Daniel Scharff
What is your shelf life currently, if I can ask?

16:11
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, so our top skew, Sweet and salty is 12 months. And then our other three SKUs, cinnamon, churro, banana, bread, brown butter, rum are nine months from manufacturing.

16:22
Daniel Scharff
Awesome. So, and just to in case anyone's not as familiar with some of the rules around shelf life, they're very important. Shelf life can make all the difference. And obviously, I mean the number one goal is to have a good product for the consumer. Right. You want your best quality product out there. You want them to experience the best taste and all parts of your product as possible when you have 12 month shelf life. So a lot of the big distributors will require, when you sell into them, they will require 75% of the shelf life to be left. In my experience, I don't know if they're always enforcing it, but that is in the rules. And so that means if they require that shelf life of 75%, that when Evie’s Texas cons are produced, they need to go into distribution within three months. Right.

17:05
Daniel Scharff
So that it still has the nine months left. If you are talking about, let's say Cody, what could a window potentially impact on shelf life? Would it take it down by, you know, a third or half? But like I know there's not an exact rule on this, but when you have that, you know, the light coming in and affecting the product, it does,.

17:22
Cody Ponsler
It does affect it. And then percentage wise, always so people. So we're not food scientists, we're like the packaging expert. We could tell you the water transmission, the air respiration. But what I'm looking for really on that, like windows, we could have had a window on this. I always think about what tells your brand's story better. She is getting a little bit better of shelf life on this. That's the kind I try to focus. We have the correct film. If you needed like extended shelf life, there might have been another film we could go to as the clear. I think in Eve's decision making, that coupled with the images that she used,.

17:57
Daniel Scharff
That's what tells her brand Story best. I gotcha. Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. So there are a lot of different ways you can do it again, I think you guys made such a good decision. But it definitely. If you're cutting down shelf life even by a couple months, then you have even less time to sell it into the distributor. And gosh, like, the clock is ticking, right? Because especially when you're a growing brand and your forecast is already so variable, like, am I going to get that national account or not? I don't know. I have all this inventory. I don't want to waste it. So they have nice, long shelf life, is a very attractive thing. So that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so, Cody, what are the first conversations like with you and brands?

18:34
Daniel Scharff
Usually, because there are so many people asking for packaging, I sort of winced a little bit when Evie talked about having that first packaging of just. Yeah, you know, we like, got the. Those sort of, like manila covered bags, then throw a label on it. Because I sometimes see brands at our events pitching those to national buyers. I'm like, don't do it. No, no. Like at the whole thing. But yeah, one of those first conversations, like, it's so tough because when you're an early stage brand, you don't always have the money to For a big print and all that stuff. So you kind of do what you have to do.

19:04
Cody Ponsler
That's a great question. Those are the conversations I'm having every day. And Eve's story is exactly the right. You're supposed to do it. People, sometimes they want to run before they walk and, like. But they don't completely understand their product. Right. Like, Eve's doing this. She was in a crap pouch with a label. And you're at a farmer's market. That's where I'm suggesting people to start. My first conversations are always, what is your brand and where are you at and where are we going? I want to be more of a packaging consultant and like, where are you at right now and where are we going to? So that's what kind of leads me in my conversations.

19:40
Daniel Scharff
So, okay, to dig into this one a little bit. In my experience, because you guys, you know, I meet a lot of founders and I'm very excited to see their products and very, like, the earlier, the better. We want people to find us when they're even just thinking about doing something so we can help them with all the resources. But it is very common that someone will come up to me with maybe not even packaging yet, just like a plastic baggie, which we'll try it, like, you know, we're interested and to provide some resources, maybe introduce them to Cody to help out.

20:07
Daniel Scharff
But I do find sometimes people even in that state, Evie, where they still have that really original packaging with just like, you know, a kind of label home printed stuck on it, I often will be like, yeah, have you thought about maybe upgrading to the. And I think sometimes for them, the state that they're in, it's actually hard for them to even recognize that it could be so much better because they're like, it is very exciting that first time that you make your own product. Oh, my gosh. And like, a label and it has my name on it, my brand. Like, that's so exciting. So I think sometimes it's actually even hard for them to receive the feedback or even just wrap their heads around the idea that maybe it could be something 10 scales above that.

20:47
Daniel Scharff
Cody, is it like that when you're talking to brands that they're like, no, I mean, it's pretty good already. Like, how. I guess you can give us a sample, but what's it. I mean, how is it going to beat this?

20:55
Cody Ponsler
So generally, the conversations that I'm having, when it gets to me, it's like, hey, I'm ready. I have all the ideas and I'm ready to scale and I want to see what's out there. So then that's what I'm doing is I want to understand their brand and help them tell their brand story. Right? And I don't mean that from a design package. Like, I always tell people, if you're looking for me to say, hey, you mix brown and yellow. And I don't know if that looks good or not. That's not the kind of feedback like I'm probably best at giving. What I'm thinking about is like, what's the story you're telling? If it's luxury kind of premium product, I probably want my packaging to reflect that. Maybe it's. If it's more commodity price, like, hey, we have solutions for that as well.

21:36
Cody Ponsler
But like, I tell people I wouldn't want to retail something for $1.99 and then get the highest, most premium package. I want to have something that fits.

21:45
Daniel Scharff
For my product that makes sense. So, Evie, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about also of just that, like, no, it's great. Like, and it works in the farmer's markets. And everyone's going to accept this, right? Like, there must have been a moment when maybe it was the first time someone sent you a Sample of what the upgraded packaging could look like. Or maybe you just saw a competitor and you're like, yeah, we should look more like that. Do you remember that feeling?

22:06
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, I think it just goes back to kind of like knowing what stage you're at and what is the right solution. So when were selling at farmer's markets and selling just online, totally fine to have the Kraft bag and like, and were really changing it all the time, you know, we got feedback. This flavor name is really not. Customers are not understanding it. We needed to update it and luckily we could do that quickly. But it was once we started kind of next stage, starting to go into independence. You know, you have a sell sheet, you're selling into independence. At that point you want to be a little bit more thoughtful about just changing your packaging all the time. You don't want to be sending them product this week that looks one way and the next week looking like something else.

22:47
Eve Ackerley
So it's recognizing where you're at in this process. It was when we started to go into, early on we got DSD direct store delivery deal to go into 50 giant stores up in the Pennsylvania area. And at that point it was like, we cannot be sending a craft bag in these stores. Just like we need to meet those shelf life expectations. You know, we need this to be looking across the category. You need to know your category as well. That's really important. That custom printed bag is really important just to like meet consumers expectations from a professional standpoint, from a shelf life standpoint, all that. So I definitely recommend just one, know kind of the stage you're at and like what is going to be some of the expectations of the retailers you're going into.

23:31
Eve Ackerley
And two, know your category really go like Cody brought up. I think it is really important to say, is this trying to be a super premium product? Like the packaging needs to reflect that in a way or what do I see across my set and what makes sense for me. But one example might be there are a lot of pouches on the nut aisle as you start to go into other packs, other packaging formats. And sometimes that makes it really hard operationally to merchandise the shelf. So you really want to just be thoughtful about what am I asking the retailer to do if I choose this pack versus that and just really goes back to that thought. Know your category so you can really, you know, talk about the strategy behind your decisions.

24:10
Daniel Scharff
And by the way, that kind of a giant account up in the northeast is exactly I think a great example of where I think your brand can play because of how strong the branding is and how clear it is without the education. That would make me nervous for a lot of other brands where it's like, yeah, but no, you have to like turn the can over and read all about our story to understand what this is. Like, no, just real clear cut. Like this can actually do well there. And so it sounds like you're saying actually there definitely was a role in checking out the shelf to even understand the kind of packaging that you thought would fit really well by looking at what competitors have, what's common in the set, what would be not complicated for retailers to accept.

24:48
Daniel Scharff
So was that a big part of it is just browsing the set and seeing the different options?

24:51
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, you know, starting to, like Cody mentioned, you know, really starting to think about a few steps ahead of like, where is my product in the sit in store? What's kind of typical in those categories? You know, certainly. And then thinking, you know, where should I innovate and where should I use my category knowledge to inform those decisions. So for us, that familiar patch format was really the right decision for us. It. We preserved a lot of real estate on shelf. It's easy to merchandise, it's lightweight. There's just a lot of things that operationally made sense. But then we had our graphics really do the heavy lifting. So those colors, that big pecan, the big logo, the really bold flavor names like that is what's doing the heavy lifting on shelf.

25:34
Eve Ackerley
And so it comes back to just know your category and really think about where are the right places to be innovative and where do you want to look to the category to inform some of those other packaging decisions.

25:46
Daniel Scharff
And it's got a nice size impression as well to let all of those graphics do the talking as well, which I know is a huge benefit. So Cody, can you take us through a little bit more? Like, what are all the options? For example, a stand up pouch. Because I know, like, okay, with Evie’s, I can see some of the features on her pack. Like there's the hole. If she wants to put it on a clip strip, then it can fit on that and you got the seal at the top, like, because people come to you probably without such a specific idea often. So what are all the things that you tell them that are possible that they'll have to make decisions about?

26:14
Cody Ponsler
This is where I tried a guy because literally you could get it just expand so fast to like, okay, I want, is it standard matte? Is it going to be soft touch matte? Is it going to be gloss? Do you want soft touch matte with some gloss accents to it so that just go. I mean, I could go into the hundreds of how we can get to these, but the really, the best way to look at it is like what. We start to sound like a broken record. What's the story your packaging's trying to tell? Like something like Eve's that's going to be more of a premium product. Packaging reflect that. Premium. I always tell people when you're buying a premium package, I don't think the packaging stops talking after the store shelf.

26:54
Cody Ponsler
When you buy something like that, you kind of like, you feel a little bit fancy when you buy it feels nice, right? And then when you're interacting with that packaging at home, you still have that, you know, connection to it. Like, I picked this up. This feels good. So those are the things that I'm trying to help with people. If someone's doing like a, maybe a popcorn and they're selling a little bit more, that's a cost effective. But let's talk about a gloss and maybe a window on there. We don't need like the super long shelf life. You could see your kernels. It looks really great. Those are the ones I'm trying to guide on. Because if you say, I just want to see the price on everything, I can do it. But it's just, it's overwhelming and it doesn't fit your brand.

27:28
Cody Ponsler
It's not where you're going. So it's like, hey, let's go give a couple options that I think makes sense for you guys and your product.

27:36
Daniel Scharff
And what about the size? Because I know you want the same thing that the brands want, which is hopefully not to have to change as, you know, at least as infrequently as possible. So for people who I think the brands in our community are amazing, but many of them come in without a ton of CBG experience. And so they wouldn't instinctively know, like, this is the standard for this category. I should just do that thing, you know, or they maybe they have a different approach to it. How do you guide them when they. Because there are so many different sizes of bags and different dimensions, they could go for different features for sure.

28:06
Cody Ponsler
So what we're going to do there is we're just leveraging, like our knowledge of all these markets. So the best thing that I do is, you know, people are at the farmers market. I kind of like this pouch. What we want to do is like, hey, could you send Me say, you're selling 8 ounces of pecans. Could you send me those 8 ounces of pecans? And I'm going to have my engineer mark this out for you. And we actually send same also them like, hey, here's what we would suggest. This is what's kind of common in the market. What do you think of this size? So then Evie could get that prototype and she'd be say, hey, this is a great test, or, hey, I would like this maybe a little bit smaller. So it's definitely a collaborative thing.

28:43
Cody Ponsler
But you're right, I have people coming all the time. It might even be their first interaction with packaging.

28:48
Daniel Scharff
But we're there to guide you through.

28:49
Cody Ponsler
It the whole way. It's not just Cody trying to lead you on this. We have your engineers behind us and our graphic coordinators. They're the ones that are really making sure that your product's going to tell that best story on the shelf.

29:01
Daniel Scharff
All right. And Evie, you mentioned a little bit before about, yeah, having the right packaging for your journey and yet totally appropriate for brands at a farmer's market to have, you know, manage their costs and inventory and all that stuff. How did you start thinking about that cost and trade off as you started growing? Like Cody saying, there are different, let's say, levels of premium bags that you could choose. And obviously, as you grow, you can try to place bigger orders and save on per unit cost that way. How does this packaging cost with? How do you think about it over time, and how have you tried to manage that?

29:37
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, I think at a certain point we said were looking at craft pouch versus custom printed pouch. And as we started to look to go into more regional retailers, or weren't looking at national retailers yet, by any means, just some regional retailers of that. Across the category, you were really not seeing craft pouches. So for us, it was like, if this is where we want to play, there is just a threshold that we need to have. So look at custom printed pouches. But as Cody mentioned, there are just so many choices that you can have. And there's also, you know, you can really get into a lot of detail about, like, what size run. You're doing all of that for us. I think you could definitely be a little bit suede intented on doing larger orders, you know, to get those price breaks.

30:22
Eve Ackerley
But I think went back to that earlier. Just thought process that we had of this is going to still evolve probably a bit, and there's still some learning that we're going to be doing. So let's look at the forecast for the next six, seven months, and we could order that. But then we also have to know that we can't change our packaging. You know, we need to run through what we have. And so balancing that price per unit ounce and balancing, hey, like, we can't make changes. We don't want to waste this inventory. So it was started to come down to that operations, focused thought process.

30:56
Daniel Scharff
All right, Cody, I know, because you have talked to so many brands and seen all this, I bet you have some good stories also about when things went wrong. Not that it's kind of fun to hear them. Not because we love the when things go wrong for founders, but just because we can all learn from them. So I'd love to ask you. There must be some thing where, like, you know, like the founder realized that they had made a huge mistake on the packaging and had to come back to you in a panic and ask for help to fix it. Whether it was something they printed wrong on it or got the wrong size or missed something, that was essential. I tell us a good story.

31:28
Cody Ponsler
Absolutely. So right back into what E says is carrying that inventory. We have no minimums at Belmar, so I try to make that really clear to people when they're getting their first orders. You know, I was like, you know what? I really want to get to this cost per unit. I try not to focus too much on cost per unit on the first run because I'm like, hey, what's really costly is buying six months of packaging. And like you said, some of it you can go through, but then some it's like, no, we cannot sell this. And I've seen those happen before. So I'm always trying to get people to like, hey, what makes sense for your initial launch? You know, I don't want you to have absolutely just in time inventory, but no one's gonna be faster than us.

32:09
Cody Ponsler
Like, I want you to order what you need, and then when it's time to scale. Now let's talk more about those larger runs, but that one right there is probably the biggest that I come across, is people trying to buy too much or kind of that chase imperfection. You've kind of touched on that at the beginning. When you're first launching, things generally change. I mean, I would say 50% of the people that I worked with, them serve CPG. Their art hasn't been the same on run number one to run number two, because, I mean, they figure something out. They're new to this. They go with a co packer that co packer didn't work out. I have to change this. So really helping them, like this is the right quantity to go through. I mean, too many times that people make those mistakes.

32:49
Daniel Scharff
That's a huge data point that you just gave because I don't know who else would have that information other than you. But I think that's a really good one for founders to hear. So according to Cody, who does probably more packaging for brands in our community than Anyone I know, 50% of the time, the art does change in some way from run number one to run number two. It definitely did for me when I had a brand. There are a lot of things that we ended up changing on pretty much every run. So that is very good for people to hear and when they're thinking about how much to order. Because it sounds like basically what you're saying is there are a lot of people who over ordered. They were a little too confident on that first run and then needed to change something.

33:27
Daniel Scharff
And hopefully it's a nice to have and not a must have change that they had to make. I do see in our slack sometimes people posting things like, hey, we've got a bunch of packaging to sell because you could put a big new label over the whole thing if you wanted. Okay, so Evie, coming to you. What are some of the lessons that you learned or things that you would really wish for early stage founders to have in mind understand as they're going through this journey, whether it's their first design or when they're thinking about designing to expand into broader channels?

34:00
Eve Ackerley
Yeah, I think we just before this iteration of packaging that you see today, we did go down that road of like, hey, we need a custom printed pouch. You know, we kind of expanded on some of the earlier designs for Evie’s and we got the pouch made, we put it in front of a buyer for a category review and the feedback we got was, oh, I thought this was laundry detergent, which wasn't. Which is, you know, not really close to roasted pecans at all. So I think one of those earlier learnings for us was, hey, you probably do know a lot about your product but like maybe go ahead and spend the time to put it in front of some buyers before you finalize it because they're going to be incredibly helpful for did my packaging do the selling that it needs to.

34:49
Eve Ackerley
So that leads me to kind of to your question, Daniel, about like, what do founders need to think about as they evolve and grow their business is early stages. You really can tell the story. You're standing next to your product, you're telling the story. As you get further down the line and your product is sitting on shelf or it's in front of a buyer during category review, your packaging needs to do the selling for you. So really that front of pack, figure out what you need to prioritize the brand, the product, flavor profile and make sure that you have a strong hierarchy because a lot of times you're not going to be sitting next to your packaging. So it really needs to do that selling for you.

35:27
Daniel Scharff
If you do end up making pecan scented laundry detergent, let me know because I would like that scent on me all the time.

35:35
Eve Ackerley
Coming this fall,.

35:39
Daniel Scharff
Cody, we'll talk to you about the packaging. So I think that's such a good point because it definitely happens a lot to me. I think honestly more often in beverage where someone will hand me a product and it just, I'm like, this just takes me 10 seconds to even figure out what this is. Like. I don't know. There are too many fancy words on this. Like what is it? What is the statement of identity of this product? So again I just keep coming back to that point of like, sometimes simple is great and I even like, I don't know, I think sometimes that can come from a place, from insecurity about the product also where people get overly fancy and complicated with their design and language and imagery because they really feel like they need to make something that's so differentiated.

36:23
Daniel Scharff
And I think sometimes that is actually just overthinking it and it like just to draw a parallel. So I'm a musician. For anyone listening, the music that happens on this podcast, those are instrumentals from my band. And yeah, not a lot of people know that, but you can check us out. Super Fantastics on Spotify. And so the parallel is like when I first started writing songs, I think it's actually really hard to write a song because you just are very self critical about it. You're like, nah, like the words aren't right. I'd be so embarrassed like for people to hear it this way. That's not exactly what it is. And it's so the whole thing is so cheesy and vulnerable as well. But then if you ask anybody what their favorite song is, like, oh, like what's your favorite song?

37:05
Daniel Scharff
Like I don't know, like Back in Black. I like that song. Like, cool. What are the words? And they're like back in Black. And then they don't know any of the other words. Right. So I'm like the people really just get like an overall feeling. Usually I think about products and packaging and I think you guys encapsulate that really well. If you look at your packaging, there's just like a great feeling that comes from it. It's so straightforward and you don't have to spend a lot of time on the pack. I do feel like the best branding comes from that also of just like, yeah, just like, don't overcomplicate this. It's. It can be very simple. People are not like taking the time to read everything. Let's just make this very clear and have them have a good overall feeling about it.

37:42
Daniel Scharff
And a great thing to do is actually hand somebody the product that you don't know and say, what do you think this is? Right? And you get a lot of interesting answers when you do that. And like sometimes things that'll just puzzle you. I remember like I would hand somebody a product that I made before and they would be like, oh, I think it's like some other thing. Just because it like sounded like our brand name but not actually what the product was. I'm like, no, that's wrong. Like, how do you not know that? I'm like, no, that's so valid though. If they think that and they see it like they're a consumer and I. They didn't have the chance to hear about it from me. So I really like that answer.

38:13
Daniel Scharff
So looking back for you guys, do you feel like there is something that you wish you had done differently on the packaging front? Evie along the way, I know you've gotten so much right, but any maybe one thing when it comes to packaging that you wish you had done differently or sooner or maybe something you still want to work on.

38:30
Eve Ackerley
That is a good question. I'm excited for other pack sizes. You know, I think we've been so focused on this, our three ounce box, kind of our core line of SKUs, we didn't let ourselves, you know, look left or look right at other pack sizes or whatnot. So I think just now we're at a point where really excited to innovate on pack size and get there. But you know, it's also okay to take it slow and be thoughtful and not be too gung ho for expansion too quickly. But I think that's the benefit. If you do kind of get your main product line right and start to build a system, ultimately it will make expansion a lot easier.

39:09
Eve Ackerley
But think about that system that you want to create, that brand identity you want to create, and hopefully you Know, once you are ready for expansion, then you're ready to go.

39:17
Daniel Scharff
I like it. And it makes me wonder are you going bigger or are you going smaller? If you go bigger, like, okay, that's a big fun bag. I'd love to have maybe send me some samples of that if you go smaller also sometimes that actually has implications on other parts of the org because now you might be talking about a checkout buyer that you have to actually start building relationships with which can sometimes be different. Right. Than the nut buyer. So I'll be very interested in staying tuned on that one. I want to see Evie’s all over the store. So very exciting. Cody, just to close us out here, can you tell me a little bit about just like overall, how does this process work for brands?

39:54
Daniel Scharff
Like when they reach out to you, what are the kind of things that you're going to ask them? How does that process work with you? Like will you send samples to anyone who asks? Like, I'm sure a lot of people at this point are wondering that.

40:04
Cody Ponsler
Yeah, absolutely. So conversations just, I mean daily, weekly would be too little to say from the community that we reach out to. We're trying to be guide them through the whole process on here. There'll be people from startup CPD that reach out to me. They don't have packaging, they don't have a co packer, they don't have a designer. Right. Like I love chatting with them, see where they are and guiding them through that whole process. All those people that like I'm making introductions to, they're not beltwer people.

40:30
Daniel Scharff
Right.

40:30
Cody Ponsler
We don't have graphic designers, we don't do any co packing but we have those relationships with them. So I'm trying to make it like as an easy as possible. Like founders like Evie, they have so much on their plates when they're trying to grow their business. I want to make it as painless as possible on the back end for them and really try to take something.

40:48
Daniel Scharff
Off their plate so they could focus.

40:50
Cody Ponsler
On growing their company. So I think that's what Belmark really.

40:53
Daniel Scharff
Does a good job with.

40:54
Cody Ponsler
And the people in startup CPG especially, they're the insurgents, right? That's exactly who we want to partner with. And that's why I think is it makes such a good fit all the time.

41:03
Daniel Scharff
All right, and Cody, hit us. What is the best way for people to get in touch with you and the good folks at Belmark?

41:10
Cody Ponsler
So you can always go to our website Belmark with 1L B L M A K dot com. You can email me Cody pelmark.com or if you're active in the Slack Channel, if you're there for more than 10 minutes, you're going to see me pop up on some conversation, shoot me a note on whatever the question is, if it's something that I can't help you with, there's something that I can tap into my network and get you an introduction for. So no dumb questions there. Reach out to me. I'm so happy to help.

41:38
Daniel Scharff
It makes sense that people would reach out to you that early because even like when we think about working with a designer, we think like, oh, I need the dielines first to give to them so they can design on the right thing. So that does make sense. Okay, Evie, to close us out here, how can we all support you? Where can people find you? How can they support you? And Evie's as you guys continue on your monumental growth.

42:01
Eve Ackerley
Daniel, thanks for setting us up. 1. You can find us now at Sprouse. We're nationwide. We rolled out in May of this year, so check us out. We're in the bulk section or you know, we love partnering with other brands that are in the startup CPG community or that are in retailers that we're in. So hit us up or Evie's Snacks on Instagram or TikTok. We really love this community and love to do all sorts of collabs, giveaways, recipe pairings. So yeah, appreciate you having us having me on.

42:32
Daniel Scharff
All right, thank you both. I really love this topic of packaging. Honestly, I could talk about it all day and so thank you, Evie, we've loved having you as one of our community members that we love watching succeed. And Cody, thank you. You know, we love the Belmark team because we just feel so good about all the brands that get to work with you guys as the most recommended partner for these kind of things. So thank you very much. And we also appreciate you being so active in the slack, which is where it all happens. It's so nice if someone's in there and will actually just answer your question right away instead of it going like online to a bot. And then three days goes by, which in the life of an entrepreneur is three years.

43:10
Daniel Scharff
So thank you both very much and we will see you all on the slack. Well, my friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. As you may know, we're not just a podcast, we're a community of brands and experts and you should join. You can sign up @startupcpg.com you'll then get an invite to our online Slack community. You're going to hear about amazing events near you, all of our special opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands and more. It's a free community. So what are you waiting for? I will see you there or on our next episode. Bye bye.