061 | Nick Gillett | Managing Expectations While Scaling Your Brand's Distribution | Mangrove Global

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Ep. 61, I continued the conversation with Nick Gillett from Ep. 60. He’s the Managing Director of Mangrove Global. We spoke about all the aspects of bringing Drinks Brands to market from start to scale, including distributors, Wholesalers, and all the links in the Drinks Ecosystem. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:25 Portfolio Selection

8:20 Creating Your Own Category

16:42 Micro Categories & National Cuisines

23:20 Traditional & Modern Serves

25:53 Geographic Centered Marketing

30:25 Building a Neighborhood Presence

32:33 Overcomplicating Cocktails

34:10 Value of Off-Trade

37:44 Transitioning to Chains

41:21 Where To Find Nick

42:23 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Nick Gillett

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Nick Gillett

Founder & Managing Director | Mangrove UK

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafair Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafail in
Eisode 61.

I continue the conversation with
Nick Gilad from Eisode 60.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, you will also like
the Mafair Drinks guides where

you will find all you need to
build a brand bottom U.

You can subscribe free or paid
on mafairdreingscom and I mean

like you met you mentioned a
couple of things and you know

occasion and brand.
So we'll we'll dig into that

more but let's start with the
brands.

You know like I'm I'm, I'm
interested and I think also the

listeners that especially like
the brand owner side of things

like they're interested into how
do you select the brands in your

in your portfolio.
Is there some element or is

there something you you know?
Like is it linked to?

Is it linked to this occasion?
To the?

I don't know the purpose, the
category?

How does that work?
The truth is a bit of a bit of

everything.
We get off with a multitude of

brands all the time, but I'm
sure we don't get, we don't get

off with every brand all the
time.

So we are choosing from what's
in our sphere of influence and

what we're offered.
We're in touch with the market.

So you know at the end of the
day we're a commercial

organization, we we need to make
profits and we need brands that

sell.
So we will be looking at trends.

We would like to think we're
ahead of that.

And this is where looking at
food trends, looking at talking

to Barton is looking at other
parts of the world, which we do

on a regular basis.
We'll be trying to get ahead or

at least be relevant to our to
our audience.

Sometimes wholesalers will ask
us because a, a, a particular

customer is asking for a brand
they've not been asked before or

a category and that gives you an
indication.

We will then look at the liquid
things that potentially we can

we can get and then we'll look
at what the category is, how big

it is, what market share and
then we'll talk about resources.

But we need products that can be
commercially successful over a

period of time.
We would like to have a solution

for every drinking occasion at
every cocktail.

We want stuff in most
categories.

Some categories, you can have
more than one product because

it's differentiated by style.
Whiskey is a great example.

Sometimes it's differentiated by
price because there'll be

different different occasions
and so it becomes a bit of a

melting pot of factors.
One, one of the key things for

for mangroves is we're looking
for long term brand partners,

right.
And we view it very much as a

partnership.
So I want to try and make sure

we can meet brand owner
expectations.

Some brand owners have
expectations that we think are

undeliverable or undeliverable
with the resources and we'd

rather say no early on than take
them on.

So that takes a bit of fact
finding.

And then there's a couple of
other elements which are very

difficult to quantify and you
couldn't tick box, but does it

fit what we do?
Can we do a good job for them?

Do we like the people involved?
That's quite important because

you're on a journey and those
journeys have ups and downs and

we certainly don't get
everything right all the time.

We quite often propose ideas,
lots of them have incredibly

successful dumb on.
We need to go through that

journey with a brand owner.
We don't take brands and then

not talk to the brand owner.
For us, brand owners have access

to an awful lot of data, far
more than some though.

They can see the journey of
their brand.

They can see how every penny's
spent and allocated from

marketing budgets.
We don't do stuff and not tell

people we don't take money
upfront.

So we're delivering stuff and I
use the word partnership quite

carefully.
Having said that, every now and

then there's a product that we
just go, yeah, let's do it

because well up until recently
with my business, right.

So we've got a couple of things
in there where I just really

like the guy.
I really like the products.

I found it.
It doesn't make people money.

We we work with some brands
because I think they're the

right thing to do.
We're lucky we're in a position

where we can help support some
brands because the people are

great or the A fossils, the
brand is really good.

Often that's ahead of the
market.

So, you know, we've had
sustainable spirits.

We've had fair trade spirits for
many years before they were a

thing because of the people
involved and because we've

thought they're right and
because the liquid's great,

right.
I mean that that bit doesn't

change.
We're probably one of the very

few companies to have an Eric in
our portfolio.

I'm very proud because the
family behind it are great.

The product's lovely.
It's just always going to be

super niche.
But we can carry that and and

and and we have one of those all
offers, but our portfolio

develops according to where the
market is and sometimes we've

got gaps.
You know we've had a gap in you

know a house bourbon for many
years because we haven't quite

found the right, the right fit.
One of the lessons I was taught,

you know John, John Coe was a
great business partner to have.

He taught me a lot of things
about business, but one of the

things he is I get terribly
enthusiastic.

I love what I do, so I can get
seduced quite easily by brands

and and and people and beautiful
settings and reminded me on a

frequent basis.
It's what you say no to that

defines your business.
So it's very easy to say yes to

everybody and sometimes we say
no to brand owners.

We know the brand may well be
successful, but it's probably

going to be more successful with
somebody else because of their

coverage or their segment or
what they're trying to achieve.

I've said no to products that I
part of me wishes we could have

done, but it wouldn't have been
the right, wouldn't have been

the right thing.
I I do remember that mantra on a

regular basis.
I think the other thing that as

a importer, I don't want to make
it sound like the biggest

responsibility in the world, but
we have a responsibility to some

of the new brand owners who have
put their life and soul quite

often their their, their money
and their savings into a brand.

I I don't believe we should take
it on unless, you know we're

we're pretty convinced by the
success we can deliver because

it's too important for them.
I mean for us, if it doesn't

work, we could probably go ahead
and get another brand.

But for some of these brand
owners, it might be their one

shot and if there's a better
partner out there or a different

model, then I think we have a
duty of care to to tell them.

So you know, it's a, it's a big
variety of factors, the

commonality of the liquid in the
people.

But we spend a lot of time out
in market.

We we speak to a lot of people
in the trade.

We look at a lot of trends
around the world to try and make

sure we're relevant.
We have brands that leave us

because their priorities change
or their resources change.

And I think if you looked at
cocktail trends as a as a

really, really good example back
when I did Kashasa Mojitos and

Kyperinios with the #1A flip
plot for number one and two as

of the biggest selling
cocktails, they're still

prevalent on most lists, but
once they weren't the trending.

I think we're espresso Martinis
and Pornstar Murphenis and

spritzes at the moment.
Drinking trends change and so

your emphasis on having brands
in that portfolio change and and

then every now and then you take
on brands and the phenomena that

is aparol.
OK on the world.

Us like everybody else went
great.

We'll just take on aparol and we
we've we've had products that

gone head to head and what you
find is I would argue we have a

better tasting product more
compelling argument, beautiful

story to tell.
But when you remove aparol from

the list consumers well you
haven't got Afro.

I'll just drink something else.
I'll have a beer and you're a

bit like well, OK.
So sometimes you know we we get

products in, we can see a
category growing but the work

that's being done by others is
tough to shift and you have to,

you have to flex.
With them to the last point just

before I forget like there are
some guys that I've that I

follow like on online and they
talk about you know creating

category design basically now so
like creating your own category

as a brand and they say they're
basically the category leader

takes usually the 76% of the
category and then all the others

are fighting for 24%, you know
now I don't know about the

evidence but it rings true, you
know as a rough number if you

are and by category I don't mean
you know whiskey or you know

bourbon or you know like those
kind of things.

But I mean like this kind of
like micro categories like to

the upper example, you know,
they created the demand that was

not there.
I mean it didn't exist.

I mean, like even even for me
being Italian, I mean in Rome

where I grew up, where I was
like 20 years old, the sales

guy, like, I've never seen
anything around Rome with

apparel.
Like it was always like a

Northeast Italy, like kind of
like Venice or region, you know,

then they took on Milan, then
they started spreading, then

they went outside.
And that is also like very

important to understand when we
think about successful brands

because otherwise we always
cherry picking on what we think

works.
You know, like whether is a

brand where it's a typology of
bar, like in the bar that sells

loads of cocktails.
And then all of a sudden we

think that everybody goes out
and drinks a lot with lots of

cocktails.
And I I remember those years

when I was going out, it was all
about mojito capirosca capirina,

you know, in Rome.
Like those were the three magic

cocktails.
Nobody drank gin and Sonic.

Maybe they were like, you know,
vodka, vodka, soda, vodka, lemon

or whatever.
But what what you answer to my

question may brings me back to
what Paul Letko from Few Spirits

told me in one of the earlier
episodes.

And also, I mean, whenever I was
chatting to him, they was always

saying, like, it goes back to
three elements.

You're either emotionally
relevant, strategically relevant

or financially relevant.
Does it make sense money wise?

You know, you bring more money,
more margins in.

You know, you are emotional
because you're a great guy, a

great girl and you know, like
Nick loves you because of the

passion that you're bringing.
And maybe to really bring in

more margins, it doesn't really
bring more business.

But you know, he wants to bet on
you kind of thing.

Or then strategically, it's like
what you were saying before, you

know, like I'm missing a
bourbon, you know, or I'm

missing in mezcal in the
portfolio, You know, let's go

with this one.
And and I think there's a lot of

stuff of what you were saying
about managing expectations from

a brand owner perspective, from
a trade perspective, from a

distributor perspective.
Because when I work with brands

and there's always this kind of
like, you know, everybody wants

to take over the world, but then
like do you have, do you have

what it takes?
And then you have the money.

I think a big misunderstanding
about the industry whenever I

talk to you know, younger but
also like senior leaders is that

it's considered an FMCG fast
moving, but it's actually not

fast moving.
You know, like it takes a long

time to build it and especially
a lot of people that come into

the industry not from an on
trade perspective.

You know when they come from an
off trade perspective, you know

people that have been working, I
don't know for PNG or Johnson

and Johnson or whatever you name
me like pharmaceutical companies

and so on.
They take a slight different

angle because they are used to
big numbers, big agreement, push

the button, have a meeting with
the buyer, get distribution, 200

stores.
That's not how you know drinks

brands are built.
I I couldn't agree more.

I mean, you you mentioned a
couple of things there that are

true.
Just to use your football

analogy, it always makes me
smile when they talk about a

young player bursting on the
scene.

It's as if he woke up one day
and put a pair of football boots

on and went out was an overnight
success.

Typically he's been 10 years in
the making through academies and

everything else.
A lot of brands are the same.

The work was done.
They probably remember this

first bottle they sold.
That was probably the hardest

bottle, right?
And whether it's your first

thousand cases or your first
10,000 cases, they are

definitely the hardest compared
to the next 50,000 because you

have 0 awareness.
Consumers have never heard of

you.
They probably don't even know

what the product is.
You're in a category that it's

not, not top of the list.
It's not there.

I mean if you were coffee
liqueurs 10 years ago, there

were a couple espresso martinis
weren't a thing.

Suddenly a drinks trend comes
and you find these brands that

have been around for a long time
now.

It's crowded with with new
entrants and and people extend

the category both in terms of
quality, price or devalue the

category and so it becomes wider
and bigger.

But the building blocks that go
in and I I always find it quite

interesting, there's clearly
money to be made.

You know, you see celebrity
brands.

You see brand owners who who who
get great, who sell out to the

big companies.
Some of the most successful

global companies are in drinks.
That's not by accident.

You know, the agio aren't the
biggest company because they're

lucky or because of a consumer
trend.

They're clearly doing an awful
lot of things, right.

But a lot of their brands have
been around for a very long

time.
And when people come in and one

of the things we get from brand
owners is, oh, you know, I want

to be a percentage of, you know,
Brand X.

Well, Brand X has been spending
10s of millions for decades.

If you look at some of the
Italian spirits, they've been

around for a very long time and
now they're experiencing a

renaissance because the cronies
are incredibly popular.

Everybody has one list.
So can Paris done, Done great.

And I think sometimes you got to
be there and your time will

come.
But unfortunately, money has a

big part to play and brands
typically will fall into a

number of categories.
You either start the very big

pot of money and you spend it
all gaining market share and you

hope to you to go to your next
stage of brand, either a sale or

an investment cycle or whatever
before you run out.

I mean that's that's a perfectly
legitimate business model that

some people have followed and
done very well or you are living

hand to mouth and so you can't
invest too much ahead of your

brand sales which just makes
your journey much longer.

And it means that every listing
you get and every penny you

spend has to work very hard for
you.

That's where we help a lot of
brands.

There's always someone with more
money and bigger reach and and

various things.
I think one of the biggest

changes and one of the biggest
challenges for brand owners is

even when you have all the
constituent parts to go

together, you might find a buyer
could be a grocery buyer, could

be a wholesaler buyer just says
no, just doesn't get it, just

doesn't share your love and
passion and doesn't give you the

opportunity.
So if you're new new brands

especially in grocery at the
moment quite challenging sector

in the UK, the and the buyers
are tasked for getting return on

their shelves make perfect
sense.

It's exactly what they should be
tasked with.

And some are relatively new for
drinks and some don't understand

the taxation system and just the
sheer capital employed for

brands to to get to that stage.
And they say, oh, you know, we

back small brands, we'll give
you a chance, we'll give you 6

months.
Well, in spirit purchases, you

know, most consumers and they'll
take it home, they'll have a

couple of drinks a week.
It takes a while for that bottle

to go down.
So you wouldn't know if you have

a repeat purchase or not.
And so the expectation on brands

to return FMCG sales and
multiples all is unrealistic in

a lot of lot of areas at the
moment.

And I think when you find drink
specialists who love and nurture

brands, it's very different to
work with.

And you you get some
opportunities to do it because

to win over consumers in today's
crowded market is tough, is very

difficult and takes a lot of
time and explanation, but all

trends start.
Somewhere going back to the

previous point about this micro
categories that I'm starting to

talk more about, it's also about
having a bit of a bet now

because you also need to create
that demand.

You know, to do your previous
example about the espresso and

coffee liquors and you know
espresso martini, it's always

like a bit of bit of a chicken
and egg.

Now like it was it for the
espresso martini or was it for

the the coffee liquor people
pushing it and to the right

people so that they created the
coffee, you know, the espresso

martini, there's always an
element about, you know, all

these new categories and and you
made a a very interesting point

at the beginning that I didn't
follow up on that.

It's about history.
I'm a big history lover know

everybody knows about it now.
But for me, it's always about

this kind of like traditional
occasions, you know, So I mean

here I, I live in Czech
Republic, you know, beer is the

top of the game, you know, and
I've been lucky to work it for

the, you know, one of the top
breweries here in the country,

like my my wife, when we go to,
like, talking about Pearson

Roqua now, for example, like
when we go to a small town in a

village that we don't know
anything about, you know, like

instead of checking Google Maps,
my wife just points at a sign of

Pilsen, Ruquel on a square with,
you know, there's there's four

different signs of beer outside
pubs.

She just picks that one because
she says automatically that's

going to be the best restaurant
to eat because they spend on the

most expensive beer.
So automatically probably

they're going to have like
better meats, better chicken,

better veggies or whatever, you
know.

And this is like not only my
wife, you know, it's just like I

I've, I've tested that across
all people that I know.

But long term brand building as
you said, I mean like they've

been around 480 years with this
beer brand.

You know, it has linked to a
certain perception, you know,

another example like I used to
sell Peroni in the UK, you know,

whenever we were selling and I
I, I built it in most of Europe,

a part of the UK, because there
was another team there and I was

always sold in these arguments
from the UK.

You know, and it was like I'll
look at what the UK team is

doing and I for me what the
answer was always like, first of

all let's look at the investment
that are totally different ball

game from my country.
And then the other thing is

that, you know, Nasrad, Zura,
Petroni like has been in the UK

since the 60s.
So to your previous point, you

know people have been eating
pizza and drank that beer for 40

years, generation, your father,
your uncle, you know everybody

go into an Italian restaurant.
So check that, you know, like

how how developed is the Italian
trade into that country.

If if you take an Italian brand,
it's totally different to talk

UK, Germany, France or talking
Poland, Czech Republic or

Finland.
You know, because you may have

10 Italian restaurant versus you
know 7000 Italian restaurants in

a in a country, you know.
So there there, there are always

like different kind of things
that you need to take into

consideration when you start a
small trend.

But you have a very fertile
ground there where there like

there's a lot of like demand and
and knowledge about a certain

category.
I think beer.

Beer is quite an interesting
category, partly because of the

scale and and who owns it.
But if you looked at something

like Madri Madri is that Spanish
beer that's been created and

Molson Coors make it in the UK,
right?

But it went everywhere really
quickly and so people were like,

oh, I think I've had this on
holiday.

I've made this because it just
resonated with the occasion.

Triumph of marketing an absolute
triumph of marketing and it it

proves what can be done if you
have the resources and and and

you you can control the market
to put out a million terraces or

you know, however they've done
it.

But you talk about different
countries and the UK

traditionally probably had you
know a beer culture and I I

would say around the world not
necessarily as as a rule the

best drinking culture.
That's not what was there.

You know when I started out
everyone went to look at New

York for cocktail trends and and
things and very quickly I I

think the UK became a hotspot
for creativity and some some

some amazing drinks trends.
But everyone's different you

know now the moment kind of
spritzes long refreshing drinks

more fashionable in the UK than
than perhaps the drink servers

in the states are still quite
small strong brown drinks

obviously weeping
generalizations but we see a

huge interest in column inches
in in in like world whiskey and

people learning.
I think that's a result of COVID

part of anything else and so
people are experimenting into

different categories and and I
find it quite rewarding and the

world best single malt comes out
of the English distillery which

is great and so thing quality is
springing up from from all over.

We are fortunate enough to
represent Molinari right, an

Italian staple, Italy's number
one Sambuca.

Molinari would love nothing more
than everyone, the Sipper

Sambuca alongside their coffee
as an Italian cafe culture.

But we have a history of shots
and people setting it on fire

right?
So we're trying to explain to

people that it's totally
different and this is how we we

want to explain.
And so for us in this particular

instance we've taken a quality
argument role in the volume

argument and but it it's a long
build, right, to change a

culture and a perception around
occasions and drinking occasions

and it's not quite the same.
But you know the number of

people that go away on holiday
and they they'll drink a product

or a wine on that occasion on a
beach and it's the best product

ever.
And I kind of bring it home and

it tastes terrible, you know,
because drinking it on a rainy

day and London is, is not the
same.

And I think for brands the part
where I I kind of understand the

global markets, you're tapping
into an emotional need.

Right.
Nobody needs to drink amazing

cocktails to survive.
You know, it's a luxury and it's

a choice.
No one needs to spend loads of

money on premium brands.
You can, you can tick the box

for their health but people want
quality and and some aspiration

on a bit of TLC but it's very
difficult to to tell consumers

how to how to drink it.
I I don't know how true the

story is, but an anecdote from a
leading marketing agency who

were doing a lot of work on
Jägermeister and Jägermeister

was the shot.
It was in frozen shots.

It was a bartender's choice and
it was a phenomena.

It was driven by the States and
everything they were doing.

But some of the original
employees and founders, A

Jägermeister, were a bit like
that's not how it's supposed to

be drunk, it's supposed to be.
There's a DJCI think it hit

about a million cases at that
point and and some type of

drinking occasions may not be
traditional.

Things change.
Absolutely.

And nowadays I mean it is
consumed that like that with an

ice cold shots and so you can
change it like from a you know

from a bottom perspective that
is really like this is what the

trade.
I remember that when I when I

was living in Sweden there was
this brand called Galliano and I

had never seen it in easily.
And then I I checked in as I the

name sounds Italian and I say
can you pass me the box again

and check it out.
And and then I realized it was

an Italian brand and I've never
seen it in, you know, growing up

in Italy and it was like a
biggest thing in in Sweden for

some years because, you know, it
just took on as a trend of

somebody really created a a
serve or a poor.

I can't remember how it was
consumed back then, but like if

it was a shot or anything, but
it was totally different things.

So it's very interesting like
how you can blend the tradition

and the and the modern take of
consumption as well.

Now because there's always this
element of especially on the

drinks that are more on the
earlier side of the evening and

they're fighting on, you know if
you take a gin and tonic or you

know they're fighting with beer
or Prosecco or whatever and then

there are some other that are
more on the later side of the

evening and they want to get
closer to the to the beginning

of the evening.
Now like all these digestive

things, they may want to be
consumed as a highball, as a,

you know, as a long drink while
you know like the other brands

they want people to stick to.
It's like the gin and Sonic

trying to steal on wine and say
like, you know, if you had two

gin and Sonic before dinner, why
don't you carry on during dinner

to still drink another gin and
Sonia rather than having a glass

of red wine.
I always feel that you still

need to take advantage and
capitalize on the traditional

occasion first and then you move
on.

You know, like what I was always
saying like to my colleagues

when I was sending Petroni, for
example, is like, you know,

let's secure this Italian trade
and then we move on to stylish

bars and and fancy clubs.
You know, let's not forget about

the Italian tree because that
will give you this kind of like

bronze sort of volume that will
help pay the bills while you're

building this aspirational brand
in a fancy Cipriani's or

Cicconi's or whatever.
But let's also secure the the

traditional white and Red Square
tablecloth kind of places

because there is something there
now and and what what, what what

is your take like we mentioned
earlier about the geographical

areas, not like the some brands
want to take on a specific

geographical area and on what,
what do you think about that in

terms of brand building?
Does it work to, from your

angle, to really take on a
specific neighborhood of the

city and make it big there
instead of approaching the city

at really bigger, bigger level?
I mean we've just just finished

our largest recruitment drive
ever or you know coming towards

the end of that and we've
recruited people all over the

UK.
We we've done that for a couple

of reasons.
I think if you're trying to test

proof of concept, then sometimes
working in the neighbourhood and

coming out works quite well.
If if you've got a product that

resonates particularly with
somebody or some group of

people, then maybe you start to
establish a heartland.

I think the mistake that a lot
of brands make, no, no, no city,

no person has a exclusivity on
creativity and knowledge and

everything else.
And a lot of a lot of brands,

especially when they come, they
focus on London, right?

Lots of brands focused on
London.

It's got high profile and
everything else.

But I just returned from
travelling around some other

cities around the UK and you can
find great places of people,

independents who want to be
different, who want to try

stuff, who, who want to support
new brands.

You know, Liverpool, Manchester
leagues, obvious places, right?

They're they're big city.
But you know, Glasgow,

Edinburgh, you know the these
cities all have some of the

world's best bars, right?
I mean, they, they may or may

not be winning the awards, but
they've got some incredibly

passionate, talented people.
But so does Bournemouth,

Southampton, Bristol, So the
small villages, we've got one

restaurant and and and one bar.
So it's I think for brands,

yeah, if you've got a finite
amount of resources you might

focus on one place.
But I I also think you need to

have a look at where your
perceived target audience is.

These days we're working from
home quite often as a commuter

belt, you know, rather than just
traditional city centres and you

also have to look at what your
competitors are doing.

For me, I I I'm not sure I can
ever have enough sales people

because I just think there's
great examples everywhere of

hospitality at IT at its best.
National chains are great, they

offer a consistent product, up
and down training and and so on

and so forth.
Rarely are they trend setting.

So beside where you want to play
and whether you need market

share or whether you you want to
create your own trend, I think

the rewards for being a trend
and establishing a drinking

occasion Douglas Ankara who you
know, unfortunately he's no

longer with us, you know.
Bless him.

I think he would have had a
chuckle about what the porn star

martini's become.
I think he would have looked at

that he he's he he tried for for
years and it's become a

phenomena in a number of places.
But when you look at big brands,

you know, we mentioned apple
roll earlier, that's become a

recognized drinking occasion.
Guinness is another.

You know, people are looking at
the way it's consumed and

everything else.
The rewards are big if you're

successful in those.
Countries, absolutely.

And so that's what brands are
obviously trying to take.

And there's still amongst
consumers the willingness.

You've still got those people
who want to be different and

want to find something for
themselves.

That is another great point, I
mean like about not going only

to the bigger city now, but ones
that you decide, let's say

assuming you decide to go for, I
don't know, Manchester because

it's just say OK, London is too
crowded and everybody as I is

asking for money and everybody's
focusing there.

Do you think there is a way of
actually kind of like owning a

neighborhood rather than just
like stopping at the trend

setting cities as such and and
and do you think there is an

element of you know on and off
trade kind of chance of building

a certain presence or or is it a
little bit more scatter like to

your previous point about it the
commuter belts, you know like

there's no there's no such thing
so you just need to make the

availability wider because there
will be people coming from North

London, South London.
I think your first strategy of

trying to own neighbourhoods is
very difficult to do from being

pushed in by a brand.
You got to bear in mind that

your brand is often a guest in
the outlet, right?

You know that if certainly if
it's an independent outlet,

they've probably put their
license soul into, you know,

hospitality, it's not an easy
industry.

They've designed their bar,
their outlet in their fashion

and so saying you must stop my
brand because we're everywhere

in this neighbourhood.
It's not necessarily an easy

thing to do and I'm not
necessarily sure it's the right

thing.
Having said that, brands become

a phenomena amongst
neighbourhoods because people

discover them and and to build
brands you need consumers to

have many touch points.
If, for example, every time you

order a gin and tonic in a
neighbourhood and it's your gin,

whether that's like or because
they like the guy or whatever,

that becomes a thing and then
people start to ask for it or a

particular cocktail that's
served.

I think what you find in places
like Manchester and Liverpool.

Arguably the bartender community
is tighter.

It's closer and they share good
practice.

There's probably more
independence in a smaller,

smaller area.
And sometimes they just champion

things because they like them,
It works for them.

I also think sometimes brands, I
can complicate it.

We get brands with a perfect
serve that bars need 25

ingredients in which to do this
perfect serve with all the

garnishes and everything else.
We represent Bounty Rama out of

Saint Lucia, right?
It's known as the spirit of

Saint Lucia.
It's everywhere in Saint Lucia.

Every Saint Lucia's grown up
with it.

It's bright colours, it's loud
music, it's calm.

And when we were talking to them
about perfect serves and doing

our research and everything
else, they're rum and coke,

right?
They're rum and coke with

friends and having a great night
out, that is their perfect

serve.
You suddenly go richly.

Makes a lot of sense.
Obviously in in in Saint Lucia

they're they're very proud that
it's shrinking the rum that

comes from down the road.
But I I think that element of

fun where brands can help
facilitate those great memories

and those occasions can form
that emotional things and not

every time is that a freeze
drive, avocado garnish, right?

I totally agree with you on that
one.

It's one of my battles to really
get brand owners to be more

pragmatic into like I I remember
an interview with with some

bartender in Paris.
I think they were, they were

talking about a brand that was
doing something with the vanilla

stick.
And he was like, you know how

much it is, You know, like you
know how expensive every drink

would be if if we did.
Yeah.

You know I'd say it's you know
sometimes it's cool on a

PowerPoint slide then it's a
little bit like going back to

the getting paid and the
payments and and and so on and

at the beginning you were you
were talking about like I love

that thing like the outlets
where there's a story to be

told.
This is very much in line with

something I'm I'm pushing out on
this new nomenclature of you

know I call it the bottom up
trade rather than on and off

trade.
Now the top down trade and the

bottom of trade because it's not
only about on and off.

It's like you know you've got
some on trade outlets in which

you cannot tell the story and
there are some off trade outlets

in which you can tell the story.
You know if you take all these

wine shops and the the bottle
shops and there are many in the

UK as well.
How important, also like the off

trade independent is in brand
building to support on trade?

Incredibly important.
Oh, I I can't, I can't emphasize

that enough for a couple of
reasons.

Typically they need a point of
difference to differentiate

between them and their groceries
because they can't compete on

price.
So they're competing on service

levels, availability and so on
so forth.

Typically, certainly an
independent op trade, they will

have a consumer who's gone in to
buy, right.

They're there because they want
to buy a bottle of something.

If I am a brand owner, that's
the person I want.

I want that undecided thing.
You know, why don't you try

this, this and that and and
everything else and the the

power of a sales person who can
bring a brand to life.

You, you, you can see.
So when we train people and we

say, look, we've got an amazing
whiskey here from Denmark, it's

made by 7 mad friends.
They're doing four more things.

They're doing stuff differently.
It's sounding it was originally

made in the family kitchen
within an abattoir.

People are like, wow, didn't
know that and and they're

engaged and they come in to do
it.

Compare that to here's a bottle
of whiskey.

I know nothing about it And so
those people have the time and

the contact to a winning
consumer and I and I liken

people who work in in those
stores and bartenders are saying

they they've got someone there
who wants to purchase and so

they can help influence that
choice and that where the

stories come in and the the
difficulty is for for us these

places are few and far between
other than Majestic who I think

do do a do a great job.
There's no real national chains

of off premise alcohol stores.
So you're having to train

individuals with with stores
that are that are quite often

far apart who don't necessarily
meet up and that's just labour

intensive and legwork and you
talk about brands being built

from the bottom up.
One of the people, one of the

reasons we're recruiting a lot
of people is we've got a lot of

stories to tell and we need to
tell them in person.

So we need more people to do it.
It it's it's not more

complicated than that.
I I I think anybody who can

engage with customers and and if
I'm a customer as well, I need

to understand why I'm being
directed away from something I

thought I wanted or why I'm
being upsold and often for a

small investment in terms of
spirits or wine.

Because taxation is such a big
part of every bottle.

For a relatively small increase
in in money, you can take a

shoes jump in quality and you
need to understand why you're

doing that.
You've earned.

You've worked very hard all week
to earn your money to go and buy

30-40 fifty pound bottle of
spirits.

It's a considered purchase.
You want to understand a little

bit about why it's getting a
recommendation, so that's why we

spend a lot of time telling
stories.

That's great to hear.
And and what, what do you think

like you mentioned chains now
like if you were to recommend as

a rule of thumb when to move
from independent kind of outlets

to moving on to bigger chains,
whether they are on or off

trade, when is the right time
for doing that?

And and I always say be careful
what you wish for not to brand

owners.
Is there a signal that you can

smell and and say actually it's
probably a good time to do that?

Or does it happen earlier on the
journey?

Like what?
What would you say is the rule

of thumb?
The rule of thumb is actually

there's no rule of thumb.
I mean we we have brands that

should be in grocery because
they're everywhere in the on the

trade but don't necessarily
resonate with buyers or don't

necessarily want to invest the
money.

You have to invest a
prerequisite of money to be in

unfortunately and we've got
brands that we just launched

that have gone straight into
grocery because they just hit

the spot with the buyer or a
trend or you got lucky on a day

or whatever.
I I think the advice is no

matter when the opportunity
because it's not in your

control.
We can present every day of the

week strong commercial strong
brand.

Sometimes buyers just don't see
it, don't don't view it's

important and you're up against
the the truly big boys and and

they are bamboozling with data
and amazing images and and and

all the resources that can be to
bear and a substantial

checkbook.
So the most important thing is

once you're in is you need to
rotate and if you're not going

to rotate you're going to be out
in six months or you know maybe

12 months and then getting back
in is really, really difficult.

So I think that the point where
you go in you you want to have a

fairly good idea that you got a
chance of staying in and that

will be an open conversation
with the buyer that will be your

commercial support, your plan
that's there.

But it's very difficult.
People used to use price

promotions to encourage shoppers
in to try and then you hope you

know old fashioned brand
building.

You hope that a proportion of
them prefer it to their previous

choice and stay with you.
But now you just see massive

category discounts in
supermarkets as they battle

against each other.
That doesn't help build a brand,

doesn't give you a chance to
stand out and talk to consumers.

So you engage in media and you
engage in advertising and it's a

big consider purchase for a
brand, right.

It's very, very difficult and
and and we say to some of our

brands, look honestly you'd be
better in the independence,

you'd be better working with
those specialists.

You'd be better working with
some of the online guys where

you can communicate, tell a
story and not spend a huge

amount of money.
And I think when you get

approached by three or four
supermarkets at the same time,

that's when you know you've
probably cracked it and you're

going to stay in.
I think it's what a lot of brand

owners think they want as
quickly as possible.

But in truth the rotation
numbers are relatively small and

you can invest in bar chains
that will do the same number of

bottles if not more for you than
a major supermarket listing.

So it's not a straightforward
answer.

It is very difficult to turn
around when they bang on the I

acknowledge that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a precious advice.
I think people will really soon

the last few a few minutes of
your answer like to they will

find some gold Nuggets there on
when to do it or at least like

you know really assessing if
they really want to do it or or

not.
So thanks.

Thanks a lot for your time,
Nick, because I'm conscious of

your time and I just want to
leave a little bit of space for

you to say, you know, how can
people find you and, you know,

redirect them to you if they
want to reach out to you and so

forth.
And thanks for your time I.

Was very kindly enjoyed it,
enjoyed it immensely.

Maybe it'll help one person out
there or it gives someone a bark

of enthusiasm.
I'd like to say the drinks

industry is full of great people
and is is incredible.

A wonderful place to work and
and and be very fortunate to

visit a lot of things and I
think if you're a brand owner

out there whether it's a million
other far more qualified people

than me, there's a lot of people
out there willing to help and

provide advice.
It's worth reaching out if

people want to get hold of us.
I'm [e-mail].

I can be found on LinkedIn and I
and I'm and I'm more than happy.

It may take me a little while,
but I'm more than happy to try

and provide some advice and
steering, and thanks very much

for having me.
Fantastic.

Thank you, Nick.
It was a pleasure.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

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