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Have you ever wondered how to make sense out of your messy life? Or wondered how to live in peace in the middle of a stressful world? Welcome to the Making Peace & Beyond podcast where Cleveland-based counselor and author, Jamie Norton, talks with guests about life's struggles and how to live in the peace, joy, and freedom Christ died to give us.
00:00:00:10 - 00:00:20:04
Speaker 1
Have you ever wondered how to make sense out of your messy life? Or how to live in peace in the middle of a stressful world? My name is Jamie Norton, and I want to welcome you to the Making Peace and Beyond podcast, where we talk about life struggles and how to live in the peace, joy and freedom that Christ died to give us.
00:00:20:17 - 00:00:34:03
Speaker 1
Really excited today to have my good friend and colleague Rose Vinci, who is a life coach and who is probably one of the more active making peace and beyond leaders around so roses. Welcome. Glad you're here.
00:00:34:18 - 00:00:51:19
Speaker 2
And thank you. It's exciting to be here. You know, I look up to you. You are not only a colleague and a mentor, but you're a dear friend. So such a privilege. I shouldn't be nervous, but it's exciting. It's exciting to do this together.
00:00:52:12 - 00:01:03:02
Speaker 1
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? And because you also have a private website and you have a ministry of your own. So I'd also like for you to mention that.
00:01:03:02 - 00:01:26:08
Speaker 2
Okay. Sure. Well, first and foremost, I've been a life coach for about 17 years now, and the body of work has just kind of organically grown over time to include not just the thought work, but the things started include the emotional work, and then really started to include the spiritual work and the faith walk with Christ overlaid and all of it.
00:01:26:08 - 00:01:55:04
Speaker 2
And I really got to recreate that in the wake of COVID. You can find me at Rose Van Kiko, and I create my own programs, kind of like you, Jamie. And when I took Making Peace for the first time, I was just blown away, blown away. It changed my life, freed me from so many things, allowed me to step into more truth than ever before.
00:01:55:04 - 00:02:16:08
Speaker 2
And I think a lot of times we do the work that we do because we're trying to learn it for ourselves, right? And then it becomes so good for us. We can't help but want to share it with the world. And that's how I feel about making peace. I think I came to you about a year ago and making peace and beyond about a year ago saying, Jamie, how do I how do I get this to everyone that I interact with?
00:02:16:08 - 00:02:40:11
Speaker 2
Like everyone needs this even if they don't know they need it. And let's let's just do this. So, yeah, I have three making pieces going in person and a couple private, making peace and beyond going in person and our, you know, privately. We'll just say that again. I have if you're making peace is going three groups and two privates.
00:02:40:11 - 00:02:54:00
Speaker 2
And it's a blessing. It's a blessing to me to kind of carry on the legacy of what you have created. But it's it's so great to watch the lights go on in other people's eyes as they get to do this work. It's such a privilege. It's a God.
00:02:54:00 - 00:03:09:23
Speaker 1
Thing. It's definitely a God thing. I mean, God is God's ministry. And I was not feeling good for the last week, kids. And I and I said, God, you know, you always show up. I mean, but this have you just going to have to give me a little extra grace? And he has always been so faithful. And it was just down to the point.
00:03:09:23 - 00:03:28:16
Speaker 1
But it's like always the only reason that I've ever been able to show up in some of this and and is that I know he's already God before us, you know, And that to me is just such a such a gift. I'm so grateful to you for taking it forward and taking it beyond because we renamed it Making Peace and Beyond.
00:03:28:16 - 00:04:02:22
Speaker 1
Just because I'm old needs to go beyond me. And so the videos and the and the podcasts and all our way of sort of getting all the information out. So it's really great to have you here and and it's really great to have you as a friend as well today, we wanted to talk about the illusion of control because I think probably our meager attempt to control probably the biggest source of our failure is the biggest source of our stress is the biggest source of our feelings of inadequacy.
00:04:02:22 - 00:04:31:04
Speaker 1
Because it's a lie. We we really tell people sometimes if you want to see how much control we truly have, hold your breath for 2 minutes. The very thing that gives us life we cannot hold for 2 minutes. And that's the extent of the control we truly have. And so we wanted to talk about control and then accept it so that that as we really realize that we are God breathe, we are not self breathed.
00:04:31:10 - 00:04:59:15
Speaker 1
And so to be able to to really break that down some and and look at how you know the original and the original fall one of the there were four lies you know that we couldn't trust God that that we would not die and that we could determine good and evil. But the the one that I think has given us even more trouble is that we could control the God and that we could be God.
00:04:59:22 - 00:05:12:13
Speaker 1
And and so that his has been a source of pain ever since. So I like that you were talking about the death grip. Yeah. And you ought to talk about that.
00:05:12:14 - 00:05:44:12
Speaker 2
Sure. Sure. I was driving here today and I was thinking, well, first of all, I should back up for a second. I was I was telling you guys that I redid my Instagram bio and I was going to make the tagline recovering Control Freak because you. Yeah, I'm certainly recovering control freak. And I was imagining in the drive over the ways that I explain control and sometimes it's white knuckling, you know, or holding on with that death grip like if, oh my gosh, if I let go, I'm going to die.
00:05:44:12 - 00:06:08:10
Speaker 2
I'm going to I'm going to fall into the abyss. And I was thinking, oh, my gosh, the death grip we think is protecting us from the fall, but it's actually that grip that's killing us. And, you know, that fall is important and it's not, you know, falling off a cliff into nowhere. It's it's falling upward toward God or actually even taking that leap of faith.
00:06:08:22 - 00:06:33:04
Speaker 2
But it's so counterintuitive to our human experience, especially, you know, I spent so much time in the business world. We do. We do. We do. We do. We don't be you know, we just do. And we start thinking we're we're the masters of our own universe and we're in control of everything. And if I just do more and I push the rock uphill and I do the next thing, it's all going to work out.
00:06:33:04 - 00:06:51:03
Speaker 2
But it's just all this illusion. And I think most of us actually learn that that illusion isn't worth keeping when we actually face some sort of challenge. Would you say that, like in your work, that most people learn it when they're they're in a pinch position, they're at a crossroad and it's really difficult.
00:06:51:11 - 00:07:13:21
Speaker 1
It's it's you know, they you know, what we try to control when we try to control what we cannot control, it starts to control us. So whatever it is we're tried to control will ultimately become our preoccupation. So in the work world, when people are trying to work harder to to and that's what we do, you know, the more out of control it feels, the more we try to control it.
00:07:13:21 - 00:07:35:01
Speaker 1
But I think and if we tried to be in a relationship where we're trying to make somebody be who we wish they were, which we cannot do, then we become preoccupied with their behavior and and fixing their behavior. And ultimately that becomes our source, our God, you know? And so our control actually takes us into our faults, God.
00:07:35:01 - 00:08:02:09
Speaker 1
And but I think that that illusion of control is is fostered when we especially if you grow in a family that is out of control, where there's chaos, where there's unpredictability, and children will try to figure out a way to survive in in that kind of situation, and they'll develop a survival fantasy that they believe will control their world and let them be accepted and keep them from getting hurt.
00:08:02:18 - 00:08:29:12
Speaker 1
And so they they end up spending a lot of time trying to make that happen and trying to be that person. And and and we become a human doing a human performing a human acting as a women in my history used to say before they went out of the house, I have to put on my face and we we end up putting on our face and being that human doing, as you said, rather than a human being.
00:08:29:12 - 00:08:47:03
Speaker 1
And and I think that is, you know, the greatest thing that can ever happen to us is when we are fantasy, our survival fantasy runs into a wall and doesn't work. But then we have to do something different. So if you are a god of.
00:08:47:09 - 00:09:07:00
Speaker 2
Yours or might have been on my wedding day like my poor husband, what a saint. We kind of get married on our wedding day because my first like, collision with, you know, this illusion of control wasn't going to work anymore in this here's a house of cards started to fall was on our wedding day. I had I had my first, you know, panic attack.
00:09:07:00 - 00:09:33:03
Speaker 2
And, you know, I probably always had anxiety before that and didn't know it. So how naive I was when I when I heard those words like panic or anxiety, I always thought that that just meant people were stressed out because there was a lot going on. I didn't realize there was actually, like physical, outward experiences. That happens, you know, from control, from fear and all of that.
00:09:33:03 - 00:09:58:12
Speaker 2
And I would say that I think for me, it did start kind of out of what you mentioned, like in parts of my childhood that were out of control, that I remember being a little girl thinking, well, if I just perform and show up well and keep my mouth shut and stay in my lane and everything will get better every single I won't don't create any distractions like and it didn't end there.
00:09:58:12 - 00:10:19:18
Speaker 2
You know, I'm sure we'll talk about boundaries today because I got my boundaries way out of whack that I thought, you know, I could fix my parents or I could fix my sisters and my parents relationships. And and I'm sure lots of us, you know, grow up thinking that we have that illusion of control. But Vienna is at a lonely place, and it's an exhaust place.
00:10:20:03 - 00:10:39:08
Speaker 2
You think you're holding the weight of the world on your shoulders. And then on my wedding day, it actually came out as a physical manifestation, as a panic attack. And I had two doctors in my wedding. I was an Ivy League doctor, and they're coming to my room. I'm literally like, It's time to put the dress on and go.
00:10:39:17 - 00:10:59:21
Speaker 2
And Chuck and I, my husband and I are in separate rooms getting ready in a mexican resort and the doctors get there first, the the resort doctors and then my doctor friends show up and everybody's in agreement. Rose is having a panic attack. And I'm like, No, I'm telling you, I'm dying. You know, I'm going to stop breathing.
00:10:59:21 - 00:11:20:19
Speaker 2
I'm having a heart attack. And they're like, Now, why couldn't get married that day? You know, my my family's running around the resort trying to get the resort to move it. And thankfully, we were at a resort and they could move it. But it was my first awakening with what the heck just happened. And don't get me wrong, I was trying to control a lot of things.
00:11:21:03 - 00:11:45:01
Speaker 2
Nobody was helping me plan my wedding where everybody was supposed to be, how everybody was supposed to show up. I was masterminding all that, and then all the family dynamics and the energy and the excitement of getting married and like, whoa. And so when I came back from that and I often think this is what saved my marriage and not that it was failing at the time, but I don't know that it could have survived.
00:11:45:08 - 00:12:04:02
Speaker 2
Control freak Rose Because, you know, who wants to be married to a control freak? You know, at some point, I think my husband would have said, What is wrong with you? So when I came home, I was like, Ooh, I don't want that to happen again. What was that?
00:12:04:14 - 00:12:26:12
Speaker 1
It sounds like a God given panic attack, actually. Yeah, it really. You're right. Who wants to be married to a control freak? So to be able to to have a stoppage, to be able to run into something that you you couldn't control your physical response all of a sudden you said, I'm not in control anymore. You know, And that didn't that was just what.
00:12:26:14 - 00:12:46:08
Speaker 1
But it's it's it's always an issue to say, because we take it back, we say, God, I'm going to give it to you. You're in control. I'm not. But then we take it back. We take it back because we want the world to operate. According to us, we have an image of how it should be. Could be would be, if only and we try to make that happen.
00:12:46:15 - 00:13:07:22
Speaker 1
And we miss our life trying to get to if only land. Because if only land doesn't really exist. All we have is right here, right now. And a God who loves us very much. And so but you mentioned boundaries. And I think part of what I see is that we have an illusion, part of the illusion of control is that I, I have charge of my boundaries.
00:13:08:10 - 00:13:33:04
Speaker 1
And that is also that is true, but it is not complete because there's two kinds of boundaries. We have God given boundaries and we have choice boundaries. And where we get into trouble with the illusion of control is that we don't recognize our God given boundaries. Most of the trouble that people get into is that they want to be more than human.
00:13:33:04 - 00:13:56:18
Speaker 1
We want to be able to have more time. We put more on our plate than we could possibly do in a 24 seven. We we want to be in multiple places at one time. We want to change somebody else's life. We want to manage things that are way beyond our control. And and that's where that stress comes in.
00:13:56:19 - 00:14:25:00
Speaker 1
God did give us choice. He did give us some control. And we it's an interactive process with him. We have to accept our God given boundaries and then we can choose within those God given boundaries. We cannot get more than 24 seven equal time as an equal opportunity employer, but we can choose how we spend that time. We can't be more than one place at one time, or we can't change another person's life, but we can choose how much time we spend with them.
00:14:25:00 - 00:14:59:06
Speaker 1
We can choose where we spend our time. And you know, we can't grow younger, but we can embrace growing older. So it's like to have that idea that, wait a minute, I have to operate within being the human being. I cannot operate beyond that. So when we talk about giving up control, we're not giving up choice. We're saying, I'm accepting that I am a limited human being and I'm choosing to operate within the confines of that.
00:14:59:14 - 00:15:22:02
Speaker 1
But those choices are mine and the trajectory of my life is going to depend not on my external circumstances, but the trajectory of my life is going to depend on how I choose to use those God given blessings. You know that I can direct. I can direct some of that. I can't choose what happens to me, but I can choose my response to what happens to me.
00:15:22:14 - 00:15:44:08
Speaker 1
And, you know, and I think, you know, you know, your your situation with glory was it was a time of really, really looking at I can't change what's happened, but I can choose how I respond to it. And you did such a good job of that. I'd like for you to share a little bit about that. Sure.
00:15:44:08 - 00:16:03:18
Speaker 2
Thanks for sharing all of that, because what you're talking about with control and all those realities and those boundaries, I didn't know. Right. And when I learned that after having my first panic attack and I went and got to talk to somebody about it, they're like, You had to stop doing that. I didn't even know that that was wrong.
00:16:03:18 - 00:16:35:17
Speaker 2
I didn't even know there was another way. And that became a body of work for, you know, a long time, because it's it's a different walk. It's a different walk than what I had grown up in. And so I'm glad I started it, because what you're talking about is getting to the point with a part of my story with my daughter, Glory and I was pregnant with glory and I was in my second trimester and they told me that she had a fatal diagnosis.
00:16:35:17 - 00:17:01:00
Speaker 2
And in that fatal diagnosis day, the day that they gave me that news, I thought they got to be wrong. They've got to be wrong, and I'm going to do research. I'm going to prove them wrong. And, you know, here I go. Turning back on that controlling self, This is my child, too, right? The one thing we do want to control our children and it's just an illusion.
00:17:02:07 - 00:17:19:10
Speaker 2
So we called one of our mentors at the time her name is Pastor Fay. And my husband and I called her and she said, I have a word for you. We told her the diagnosis. We've told no one else. We're like, What do we do with this information? This is like, What do you mean? And I should back up for a second.
00:17:19:10 - 00:17:42:05
Speaker 2
What that really meant was she had a diagnosis in the family of spinal bifida, which means she had a hole left in her spinal cord zip up in development, but it was going to be left near the top of her head, which is going to expose her brain to the amniotic fluid. So she was going to grow ideally perfectly inside of me, but she wasn't going to be able to live after she was born.
00:17:42:05 - 00:18:02:18
Speaker 2
And if she did, it might be seconds or minutes or hours was kind of what we were given, and that's when we called Pastor Fay. So anyway, we called her and she said, We're thinking she's going to tell us it's a miracle, don't worry about it. And she says, instead, thy will be done. You know, we were like, Oh, what do you want me to do with that?
00:18:03:02 - 00:18:23:18
Speaker 2
So we did, you know, Chuck and I kind of said, Well, she said it, We trust her. We know that's what God has to say about this. We'll let him have control. And ironically, was probably the first time in my life I ever really fully let go of control. I think up until then, even knowing what I was learning, I was kind of one foot in, one foot out.
00:18:23:18 - 00:18:31:04
Speaker 2
I take it back, I give it to God. This was this was the first time we full on surrendered.
00:18:31:04 - 00:18:38:15
Speaker 1
And so you did decided to carry to term? Yes. And then she was born and she lived 5 minutes.
00:18:38:21 - 00:18:41:23
Speaker 2
Nope. She actually passed during full term delivery.
00:18:42:00 - 00:18:42:09
Speaker 1
Okay.
00:18:42:14 - 00:18:54:00
Speaker 2
And became the first neonatal organ donor at the Cleveland Clinic. So she has her own little legacy story. I certainly didn't carry her for that reason. But, you know, that's her her legacy.
00:18:54:00 - 00:19:02:18
Speaker 1
But she she had a great legacy. I mean, it is. It really is. I mean, there's not a better way of dealing with it than to give life to others. Yeah.
00:19:03:09 - 00:19:18:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I didn't need her to do that. But she certainly changed me. And I think that's what you're alluding to. So in this one moment that I have let go of control, and it wasn't a moment, it was a moment by moment. It wasn't like Pastor Faye said, Thy will be done, Chuck. And I said, okay, Yes.
00:19:18:05 - 00:19:43:08
Speaker 2
And then, like, it was all agreed and it was like rainbows and sunshine and butterflies. It was still day by day, like keeping in that let it go mindset and but what came out of it was things that were so beyond human understanding. And for me, the ones that came to mind over and over and over again during that time was love, joy and peace, love, joy and peace.
00:19:43:15 - 00:20:02:01
Speaker 2
How I was having love when my heart was broken, how I was having joy when my life was so sad and how I was having peace when my life was turned upside down. But I was. And I thought this life coach in me when I figure out what the heck is happening right now, how am I having these extraordinary things?
00:20:02:08 - 00:20:22:20
Speaker 2
I'm just ordinary. I'm going to tell the whole world, which is how I ended up doing some of my writing and speaking that was born out of my my coaching work, thanks to this experience with glory. And I think I did figure it out later. You can read about it in my story in The Rising Sisterhood, but I talk about it often.
00:20:23:14 - 00:20:40:08
Speaker 2
It was the one thing I had never done before that allowed love, joy and peace to come in. It was the surrender. It was the letting go. And if I if I could give an analogy of that, it's that back to the death grip. You know, I would do life with the death grip and then with glory I had to let go.
00:20:40:21 - 00:21:03:12
Speaker 2
So my hands were open to receive. And when we look at love, joy and peace in Scripture, those are the fruits of the spirit and their gifts that only God can give. I can't create them, No. And so with my hands open, I could receive these gifts. But that's the beauty, that's the replicated whole process that in this control and surrender.
00:21:03:12 - 00:21:17:01
Speaker 2
And the whole reason we even talk about it is because we now know you and I know and we want lots of people to know that when you do this, there's something beautiful on the other side and it transcends our situation and our circumstances.
00:21:17:05 - 00:21:42:19
Speaker 1
It does. And and and it's it's you know, thy will be done Is is the prayer that never fails. I do believe that every person has to have their own Garden of Gethsemane. Every when Jesus went to the garden, he knew he was headed for the most painful thing a person could go through. And yet and he was he's wanting something different.
00:21:42:19 - 00:22:11:12
Speaker 1
And he begged I mean, he didn't give up control completely, you know? I mean, initially he used it. He's wanting to bargain with it. He's like, can we do something else? But ultimately, he said that, well, not mind be done, that will not mine be done. And in that moment, he became peaceful. And and I think it's it's it's it is the replicable thing because we have to go to that dark night of the soul where nobody else is out there, where nothing is, where it's totally dark.
00:22:12:00 - 00:22:34:15
Speaker 1
And at that place we have a choice to surrender or to go out with our fist swinging, you know, and and when we get to that will be done. We open our hearts to the fruit of the spirit. We open our hearts to knowing that we're not alone, that there's nothing that we're going to go through. That is that God is not going to be with us.
00:22:34:15 - 00:22:56:01
Speaker 1
And I like to say, you know, one of the things about giving up control that I think is so hard is that people cannot give up control until we know someone is in control. And that is the until we really know there's something bigger than me that is with me, there's something bigger than me that is in charge.
00:22:56:01 - 00:23:20:09
Speaker 1
And and I tell people sometimes if you if you cut your leg, you don't know about the cut until about 4 seconds later, because it takes about 4 seconds to sort of figure out that, you know, something's going on and to become aware of it. And, you know, my awareness of the cut does not create the cut. My awareness of the cut allows me to deal with the cut.
00:23:20:17 - 00:23:41:17
Speaker 1
But I have to accept that it's there before I could even deal with it so I can become aware of truth. But I have to accept the truth before I can really operate within it. And that's what you know, that's what because God goes before us and when you know that, then you have peace, you have joy, you have the the fruit of the spirits available to you.
00:23:41:17 - 00:24:00:22
Speaker 1
And that's what we are to do, is to distribute those to others. We try to, you know, before that time, we try to get those. We try to create them ourselves. We try to get them from others. You're not going to make you love me. I've got to I've got to do what makes me happy. I'm going to I'm going to take something to make me peaceful.
00:24:01:03 - 00:24:20:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm going to do all that kind of stuff. But once we we realize that that is that all it takes is for me to acknowledge that I'm not in control. I am not in control. And that somebody, as my daughter says, there's two pillars that she depends on completely for her life. One is God is sovereign and the other is God.
00:24:20:14 - 00:24:44:20
Speaker 1
God is good, God is sovereign and God is good. I have to add to that because because I feel so lovable, because I'm such an idiot sometimes. But I have to add to that God loves me. God is good, God is sovereign and God loves me, you know? And when I can remember that which is I forget frequently, but when I can remember that then then life is peaceful and life is full.
00:24:44:20 - 00:25:02:03
Speaker 1
And I can be the kid play it on the beach because my, my Ava loves me. You know? I love the story of Brendan Martin's book about child. Well, he talks about going to the beach with his grandfather, and his grandfather all of a sudden starts to dance around on the beach and he says, you know, what are you doing?
00:25:02:03 - 00:25:23:22
Speaker 1
And the grandfather says, Meabh loves me, Meabh loves me. And I think that when we really surrender into the God's arms and to God's love, we can dance around on the beach and say, Meabh loved me. Meabh loves me because my daddy loves me. And and that is, that is such a blessing and such a gift that you do want everybody dance to you.
00:25:23:23 - 00:25:51:08
Speaker 2
Naturally, when people see us living above our circumstances and that we've done something different, I think they're drawn to it, they're attracted to it. They want to understand it. I think even when we are going through everything with glory, they they would have understood if I was a a puddle of tears on the ground, completely debilitated. But I was walking around with this these fruits of the spirit, love, joy and peace because I had surrendered and everybody's like, How are you doing this?
00:25:51:18 - 00:26:13:00
Speaker 2
And and you can literally say, it is not of me, it is through me. And you get to shine God's light. When we do this, however, I often would think about, you know, replicable processes. How how did I even end up relinquishing control in that moment? And you've pointed out both of them. One was, I didn't have a choice.
00:26:14:04 - 00:26:36:07
Speaker 2
It wasn't like I'm some surgeon that's going to reach in my stomach and, you know, fix Gloria and do a fatal diagnosis I had. My back was against the wall, the dark night of the soul. And the second was I did develop that relationship, that trusting relationship with my father. And you know, how this incident with glory happened even a few years earlier?
00:26:36:07 - 00:26:58:06
Speaker 2
I might not have known that. But developing that relationship of whose I am and who I am and then I have a father I can trust, and love did really create that process. The one pastor Faith said, Let it go. I'm like, I do know him. He does love me. I do trust him beyond me. And I remember a time when I didn't know and feel that.
00:26:58:11 - 00:27:21:13
Speaker 2
And so what a blessing to journey in Christ in the word, to figure out how loved I am so that when that moment came, I had another option besides the death grip, which was literally going to kill me. I mean, I probably would have been sick spiritually, mentally, physically, if I was going to try to change the outcome that I couldn't change.
00:27:22:01 - 00:27:44:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And you would have never, never been able to experience the good things that have happened since then. I mean, because life happens and I think we live under the illusion that we know good and bad. And. And you would never say, Oh, gee, I'm so glad the glory didn't make it. But what you can say is that God has used what Satan intended for evil, for bad, for good.
00:27:44:15 - 00:28:19:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so and you've used that and you've reached others and you've helped others to see, Oh, wow, You know, this. This is not the end of the story. You know, this is I mean, this is just the middle of the story of we are part of a story that has a great ending, you know, And, you know, we get a choice of what part we want to write in our story, you know, and and I think that is the you know, that is the gift of it all that, you know, once we realize that we are a part of a of a great throng of people, you know, it is it ate at a
00:28:20:10 - 00:28:41:20
Speaker 1
a lot of history and just a part of an ongoing story that is has got both good and evil in it that God is good. You know, somebody said that the cross that Jesus is totally vulnerable on the cross. I mean, we're the ones who put the loincloth on him, you know what I mean? When you were crucified, you were you were totally exposed.
00:28:41:20 - 00:29:12:00
Speaker 1
You were totally vulnerable and you were totally you were totally you. It was a total picture of what what we do to ourselves and others. And then but it's not the end of the story. I mean, you know, the end the next thing is, is is life and life abundant? But I think having to be totally vulnerable, to be able to receive that total life is what we're talking about.
00:29:12:00 - 00:29:31:12
Speaker 2
It is. It is it's so much about vulnerability and it makes me think of so many things, you know, being vulnerable. We really do get a great exchange. We get beauty for our ashes, you know, if we give them all the burned up stuff and and he returns it with beauty. But that's the work of making peace and beyond as well as is vulnerability.
00:29:31:12 - 00:29:54:22
Speaker 2
I mean, one of the first things we do is having people step into their truth and acknowledge it in front of God. And I think I even asked you one time like, wow, we hear all these stories, we hear all these stories of pain and and you had the most perfect thing to say. I don't know if you'll remember what it was and I'll ad lib it, and you've never tried to repeat it, but it was something about like that pain might be the best part of their story.
00:29:54:22 - 00:30:11:18
Speaker 2
It might be the point where it changed at all. Like we look at this pain like, I want to fight it, I want to stuff it down. I want to walk around it. I want to walk over it. I want to walk under it. It's this walking through it that really is where the work is. And that's what making peace and beyond is.
00:30:11:18 - 00:30:21:21
Speaker 2
That's what you've done for me. That's what I love doing with other people. And in my business as well. And yeah, it's, it's that's how cool our God is.
00:30:22:17 - 00:30:23:10
Speaker 1
You know, it.
00:30:23:10 - 00:30:27:10
Speaker 2
Doesn't make sense. It doesn't in the human sense, but it does in God's kingdom.
00:30:27:14 - 00:30:45:20
Speaker 1
It's paradoxical. I mean, we gain we gain strength by acknowledging our weakness. And, you know, that's why Paul says, you know, when I am weak, you are strong. Because when we when we really accept that we're not in control, it gives us the strength. We don't even understand, you know? And I think that is, you know, that is amazing.
00:30:45:20 - 00:31:06:16
Speaker 1
And I love watching people take the courage to step out of their comfort zone. I mean, it's it's like my granddaughter told tell me when she was ten, I took her to Costa Rica to see your sister. And she said, do you want to go on the zip lines? And I said, I'm really not. I'm scared to death fights.
00:31:06:16 - 00:31:31:12
Speaker 1
I don't like it. And and Anna Anna was like those 12 trees. And I mean, in all fairness to me, it wasn't just one tree or two trees. It was 12 trees. And when you got in the trees, you couldn't get down. And and Anna said, you know, acid, Anna, that's just way out of my comfort zone. And Anna looked at me and she said, Ma, I just know you'd be so much more comfortable outside of your comfort zone.
00:31:32:01 - 00:31:51:12
Speaker 1
And I find over and over again our our uncomfortable comfort zone is often chosen because it gives us that illusion of control. As long as I stay in what I know, you know, as long as I you know, somebody gave me a coffee cup the other day that said your comfort zone, it might be really pretty, but nothing grows there.
00:31:51:23 - 00:32:19:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, and, and you know, to, to have the courage to step into the unknown means you have to have courage. And that something is bigger than me. And often I need somebody leading me. I need somebody helping me to know that there is hope, you know, because and that's one of the things that I think recovery programs do a very good job of is is people come in to the rooms of recovery feeling like there is no hope for me.
00:32:19:19 - 00:32:38:16
Speaker 1
I am at the end, I have nothing. And they walk in and they see people who have been where they are that are not there anymore, that have moved on, that have grown. They walk into church and they say and they hear the stories about baptism. And in small groups, you know, I was lost. But now I'm found.
00:32:38:20 - 00:33:05:19
Speaker 1
I was lost, but now I'm found. And that's the story of all of us. We were lost, but now we're found. And to be able to really look, look at that and to to have those examples, you know, just for me is is like that has always been such a god has brought people into my life that to give me hope, to show me the way, to show me that it's not over because that's how he he works with us is in community.
00:33:06:02 - 00:33:21:08
Speaker 1
And I just continue to stress how important it is for us to step into community to to have the courage to go out. And I tell people sometimes that God let me commit everything there is to commit so everybody else can feel comfortable with theirs.
00:33:21:08 - 00:33:22:17
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:33:22:17 - 00:33:44:22
Speaker 1
And that's what So every week at making peace, I throw myself under the bus, you know, because because it's, you know, and it's not that I'm really happy about those things that I did or that they were good things to do. But God has used them and he has showed me that there's nothing that I can do that is beyond his grace.
00:33:45:06 - 00:34:14:12
Speaker 1
And I think that is that is such an incredible gift. And the freedom that that Christ had to give us. We totally underestimate, you know, but it's not available to us as long as I'm going to be my own God, as long as I'm going to be the one who's in control. And and so I have to go through that past process of of becoming a mere human and not trying to be more than human, you know, in order for that to happen.
00:34:15:04 - 00:34:15:09
Speaker 1
Oh.
00:34:16:05 - 00:34:16:23
Speaker 2
Absolutely.
00:34:18:11 - 00:34:40:16
Speaker 1
I think, you know, one of the things about I love the Serenity Prayer, I love the serenity prayer lifestyle. I try I you know, I try to ask myself right away, you know, is can I change this right now? Because I can't change it right now. I have to accept it right now. And I'd like to kind of I thank you so much for being here.
00:34:40:16 - 00:34:59:12
Speaker 1
And I just but I wanted to sort of sort of sort of bring us a little bit toward the close to to just read out the whole Serenity prayer because it's such a great lifestyle. It is. It says, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
00:34:59:20 - 00:35:22:00
Speaker 1
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship as a pathway to peace taking, as Jesus did. The sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next.
00:35:22:18 - 00:35:23:22
Speaker 1
I just love that prayer.
00:35:23:23 - 00:35:40:20
Speaker 2
Helped me too. I would teach it to people in the secular business world and I'd read it to them and and I'd say, you know, the first line, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. And I would say, you know, serenity is your peace. And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about making peace and beyond.
00:35:41:03 - 00:36:02:20
Speaker 2
And that's what serenity is. And I like to read it in reverse because that's my quirky little nerdy brain and say, if you don't accept the things that you cannot change, you will not have peace. And so many times we think that this letting go process means I'm giving up and waving the white flag. No, you're still going to march forward.
00:36:02:20 - 00:36:10:23
Speaker 2
You're still going to have the next step in the next step. But if you want peace in it, you need to accept what's yours and what's not yours.
00:36:10:23 - 00:36:28:22
Speaker 1
That's why when something happens, I first ask myself, Can I change it right now? I might visited again next week, but I can't change it right now, so have to accept it right now. And that leaves you in a chronic state of peace. I tell people, keep your head and your body in the same place, you know, because that's where peace is.
00:36:29:04 - 00:36:47:23
Speaker 2
And one of my favorite lines is, you know, when Jesus said, you know, my peace, I leave you my peace, I give you that as the world gives. This is a peace that super state supersedes. I have goosebumps, Holy Spirit. Goosebumps supersedes what we can understand in the human sense. It is so good. It's so worth doing the work.
00:36:48:08 - 00:36:49:18
Speaker 2
He died to give it to us.
00:36:49:18 - 00:36:50:02
Speaker 1
He did.
00:36:50:02 - 00:36:52:08
Speaker 2
It. It came for a price. So take it.
00:36:54:00 - 00:37:19:20
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for being here today, Rose. It's just always delightful to be with you and to talk about these things. And for those of you who are listening, I really pray that you may have gotten something useful out of what we talked about today and that you would join us again for other podcasts. And if you're interested in knowing more, we do have website making piece of Beyoncé from where their videos and and workbooks.
00:37:19:20 - 00:37:41:02
Speaker 1
And then we have a presence on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and we're just everywhere and and making peace and beyond. And so we just glad to have some time with you and just pray that you're you will have a great day and a life of peace and joy and love. Yeah.