038 | Scaling a Whisky Brand from a Local Distillery to the World | Part 2/2 with Daniel Szor, Founder of the Cotswolds Distillery (UK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 038, I continued the conversation with Daniel Szor from Episode 037. Feel free to listen to that, as well. He has an incredible story as he left his 30-year Investment Management career in NYC, Paris, and London behind to build one of the first English Whisky Distilleries. I hope you will enjoy our chat. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

(0:00) Introduction

(0:10) Home Turf Advantage

(3:05) Starting A Distillery: Sales

(8:44) Bridging Categories

(16:34) Discerning Your Market

(20:46) Home Turf Authenticity

(27:57) Creating A Sales Team

(33:51) Small Brand Owner Expectations

About the guest: Daniel Szor

About the Host: Chris Maffeo

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Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Daniel Szor

Founder | Cotswolds Distillery

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For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

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In episode 38, I continue the
conversation with Daniel Shore

from episode 37.
Feel free to listen to that as

well.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

You mentioned about, you know,
the lighthouses and so on.

Like how do you or how did you
start with?

You mentioned shipping Northwich
by by the way.

Like one of my big loves was a
trip to.

Wonderful brewing.
When I was, I think I was like

16 or 17 because I I used to, I
used to spend my summers in in

England with a deer family, you
know, like I I call them my

English family.
And that's where I learned

English, actually, like my
friends.

And they took me there for a
weekend, a small cottage that a

friend of theirs own.
So I remember very well Chipping

Norton as well.
Well, Hook, Hook, Norton and

great bunch of guys and we've
done projects with them.

We made a rye whiskey together
with rye beer that they made and

we distilled.
And I mean they've got 165

years, 175 years of of history
going for them.

One of the things that I always
talk about this winning your

home first.
Now because I mean being being,

I mean having a region in your
name with a cost will

distillery, you know you you
have to be credible in in the

cost rules before expanding into
London and where I mean very

expensive.
It's so it's so important and it

is still, I mean as, as
important as these sort of

lighthouse accounts are and you
know the the sort of the, the,

the glamorous account.
It has always been for us, very

much a question of, as we say,
owning our backyard.

And we have a wonderful backyard
because, first of all, the

Cotswolds is a surprisingly
large area.

It goes from the city of Bath in
the southwest all the way,

almost all the way up to
Birmingham, so sort of southwest

and Northeast.
And there's a lot of wonderful

towns there.
There's, you know, there's

Oxford, there's Bristol, there's
Cheltenham, are all kind of

bordering, you know, more or
less than the Cotswolds.

And so it was very important for
us the beginning and also you

know we're of limited means.
So we can't be everywhere all

the time and we're not going to
be able to win every bar or or

do lots of big deals.
But in Bath, for example,

there's a the bar called the
Hideout, which is regularly in

this sort of top 50 in the UK
And I think we started with them

just on a trial of the gin.
They now list the entire whiskey

core range.
The gin is the house poor and

they even bought a single cask
for the bar which is amazing.

So you know it's it's a story of
growing this again from small

bases Again every people got to
know our gin in in the beginning

and we had a program at one
point we called win with gin

where we basically went out and
we agreed with a certain number

of bartenders that if they you
know we're able to pour a

certain amount make us the house
pour, then we would come back

and kind of help them out in in
in various ways but really get

them on side.
So that's been really, really

important to to make sure that
we we we have great coverage in

our in our in our home, home
area.

And and how how did you did you
start because this is also like

an another piece that I'm kind
of like evolving my thinking.

I used to call it like you know
you that you need to build

bottom up you need to build in
the on trade exclusively.

But then I I'm actually evolving
this thinking now and I call it

I like to go instead of on and
off trade.

I like to go to bottom up and
top down trade because I believe

that actually there is a big
needs and actually this is due

to the talk that I had with with
Duncan McRae of woven whiskey on

on you know like the importance
of off trade.

You know the the small bottle
shops, you know the small places

that are off trade, but they
actually almost act as on trade,

you know, because there is an
owner that is buying the

bottles, there is an owner that
is actually telling the story of

each bottle and so on.
So how did you start?

Like did you start like what was
it like a mix of on and off like

in this kind of like bottle
shops or did you focus mainly on

pubs and bars and restaurants?
We we did things a little bit

backwards.
We very much focused more on the

off than on the on.
That may have been in the

beginning an extension of my own
sort of personality and that I I

had been as whiskey geeks are
probably more off trade guys

than on trade guys because they
buy their bottle.

They bring it home, they share
it with friends or whatever that

might even be sad, sad, lonely
drink.

They they have a relationship
with their spirit, which they

don't really require that
intermediary sort of of the

bartender.
But actually, I mean, like I

knew from all the years in
France that the intermediaries

that were really important for
me were exactly those guys you

were talking about, the cavists,
the, the small, you know, off

trade guys.
France particularly is amazing

for that because no matter what
village you're in, no matter how

small, there'll be a CAB East
and you can go in looking for a

bottle for Friday night when
you've got some friends over.

And he will spend 1/2 an hour.
He or she will spend 1/2 an hour

talking to you about various
things.

And so, for example, in that
market, you know, and where

France is one of our important
kind of export markets, I

realized that we didn't matter
enough in terms of our volumes

to justify the kind of attention
that I thought we needed to tell

the story.
Literally cab east by cab east.

So we ended up hiring someone in
France whose job was literally

to go in and tell that story,
you know, 6 to 8 times a day and

then move on to the next city
and the next city and the next

city.
And he's been doing that now for

5-6 years and doing an amazing
job just building up from the

very basic level with these
Kevis.

And we we started also in the UK
very much doing that and talking

to to local, local shops and
stuff.

Of course the UK is a very
different model because you

can't really ignore the bigger
channels, the grocers, the

online guys, the cados and they
just sort of like the big online

shopping network or Amazon.
But depending on the market, if,

if that if that is an important
channel then you have to give it

its its time And again it was
always just one account at a

time.
It's it's true that for whiskey

like the off trade it's it's
it's crucially important.

I mean this niche kind of off
off trade but also like because

it also depends on the market
you're in.

For example here in Prague
there's very few of those kind

of, you know you would call it
at least it's very limited.

So it's you, you go from entree
to to modern trade right away,

you know.
But then in Rome, where I grew

up, I never bought a bottle of
wine or my parents never bought

a bottle of wine in in a
supermarket for many years.

You know, like just recently
then you started to get like

some nice bottle of wines in a
supermarket.

But before you would go to an
anoteca and buy buy there and it

didn't have to be super
expensive.

And then there would also be a
sense of pride having those kind

of, like bags and putting the
wine in that one of those bags

because it means you bought it
there.

So it automatically was kind of
like a validation of the caveats

to the French example now.
We started out there and

probably you know 7080% of our
business is is off trade and I

think you'll find with brands
like us that's typically the

case.
It's difficult for us to

dominate the you know in the on
trades.

It's a real challenge the on
trade if you're trying to do

volume, if you're trying to do
mass, if you're trying to it's

just a very difficult because we
can't pay huge amounts for

cocktails, we can't pay for
listing fees and we can't you

know do these contracts and
whatever.

So how do we do it.
I was at a a trade show the

other day with one of our team
that covers the sort of cash and

carries and the off trade and
small whatever, but also on

trade as well.
There there were sort of

restaurant bar owners from
around the UK and I was speaking

with one guy particularly.
I remember he owned this

steakhouse or something in in
Essex and he said oh we we, you

know, our guys drink a lot of
whiskey.

It's a steakhouse.
I said well how many Scottish

whiskeys you have up there?
He said probably about 15 or so.

I said how many English whiskeys
you have?

He said none.
I said well we're the local,

right?
We are the local for 50 million

people right who live in England
and I think honestly it it

talking about an on trade
strategy that that will ought to

work or needs to work for
English whiskey is we need

collectively as a business to
make sure that every restaurant

and bar in in England has at
least one bottle of English

whiskey you know of of of of
some brand.

Because we are the local.
And why would you not want to

offer up the local right if it's
good?

Absolutely, absolutely.
And then then that goes back to

the the conversation we were
having earlier about about

categories now because it's the
the right balance between taste

profile and and categories.
No, because I I don't like too

much to think in category very
often because I think it's very

limiting.
No, I was here like in a whiskey

fair a couple of weeks ago here
in Prague and and I I went there

with a friend of mine and he's a
big rum drinker.

He doesn't drink whiskey.
So I used for example like we

drank a Glenfiddich, I believe
it was like the 21 year old Ram

casks finish so and I said let's
try this one.

It was like a Ram casks to get
him into the whiskey.

And I love doing that, those
kind of experiments because I

like to to shift people through
taste.

But you can use category to your
needs.

You know like sometimes they can
be limiting sometimes they can

be actually the enabler of the
foot in the door.

As you as you're as you
exemplified earlier.

Now it's like how many English
whiskey you.

Use it opportunistically.
You use it where you need to.

And if I'm selling in my
backyard, I'm Cotswolds whiskey.

If I'm selling in England, I'm
English whiskey.

If I'm selling to whiskey geeks
who are in Australia or Japan or

France or Germany, I'm New World
whiskey.

But most importantly and above
all three of those, I'm

delicious, right?
That's what matters.

The novelty in the category
might sell the first bottle.

They will not get through that
bottle, never mind ordering a

second one if they don't find it
surprisingly delicious.

Like I found that Taiwanese
whiskey, which made me want to

buy it again until they the
prices went so crazy I could no

longer afford it.
It's going to take us a long

time, longer more than my years
for, you know, let's say English

whiskey to have the kind of
renowned that has taken, you

know, decades and hundreds of
millions of pounds of marketing

for Scotch to achieve.
Which means that in the time

that I have left to sort of be
involved in this, it's still

going to be like the best kept
secret kind of thing.

Even though it feels like, you
know, one thing as a brand

owner, you got to be aware of is
believing your own BS or

drinking your own Kool-aid, as
they sometimes say.

Because you know what?
You find.

You're surrounded by people who
know you.

Therefore, because they know
you, they know your brand.

And because they know your
brand, they happen to see it

everywhere.
They notice it everywhere.

And this is, oh, dude, you're
killing it.

You're all over the place.
You're on every shelf.

You know, you're doing so great
and you said the thing I am

doing so great.
And then you realize that

actually for every one person
that's your friend, there's

about 10,000 that have never
heard of you.

But if you know that and if you
know that those 10,000 haven't

heard of you, then you are still
the best kept secret kind of

thing and you will be for years.
And everybody likes to be on the

in on a best kept secret.
They love to tell their friends.

They love to say, hey, have you
tried this?

You would be surprised.
Hey, let me give you a glass of

this.
What do you think?

And again, that's when the
quality of the liquid and the

flavor is going to win people
over.

You know, you mentioned your
friend with rum.

You know, I love that I got into
rum after I got into whiskey

because I realized I was just
into flavor.

And that's taken me into being
like crazy about amaros and the

chartreuse and and all sorts of
and all the classic of

peritibo's and becoming a bit of
a taste sort of junkie, a flavor

junkie.
But if you lower those gateways

and particularly and I think
sometimes when it comes to, you

know, sort of people who didn't
think they like whiskey and then

we'll try our whiskey.
And again we have a whiskey

which is easy to love because
there's a vinuous quality to it.

There's a brand Brandy like kind
of a smoothness and a depth and

flavor.
It's not you know a peat monster

that we do do it, a very nice
lightly peated whiskey.

But basically we have a flavor
profile that I think can bring

people in to the category.
And then again they they tell

that story for us and that's why
the the brand home is so

important.
It's not just about you know

sort of a showplace for let's
say the entree or whatever, but

it's literally everybody who
comes to our doors becomes a

brand ambassador.
And I if I could scale that

infinitely, I would.
It's the most wonderful

experience.
Somebody pays you 25 lbs to

advertise at them for 90 minutes
and they buy 2 bottles at full

margin, go home, give you a five
star review on on Google and

tell all their friends.
I mean it's it's brilliant, it's

it's the best bit of what we do,
but we obviously have to do a

lot of other things too.
Absolutely.

But but this is like this is
very interesting because when

when you were talking like to
the previous examples now like

about being everywhere and using
categories and like it.

It reminds me for example when I
when I was selling Peroninas

Lazura in in Scandinavia now and
and we were in we were selling

in Helsinki.
Actually Jonas is is another

guest of my podcast in episode
31 and he was he was one of the

owners of this group of this
group in Helsinki where we were

selling it.
And and I remember that at some

point we got a call some friends
met some CEO from another

company that I won't mention the
name and these people were

bringing older people but then
they went to two or three bars

in Helsinki thinking they would
drink their beer.

But then in in those right three
people we had we had Peroni

there.
And then all these people there

were trade people like you know
from ferries and you know like

from all over Scandinavia they
started drinking Peroni and this

person was so pissed off and
then our, you know

representative there that knew
her and he was like why you're

doing you're doing incredible
job like and so pissed off

everyone is drinking Peroni here
and you know like you are

everywhere in Finland.
And and he mentioned that to me.

And I knew we were literally in
like 20 bars in Helsinki, you

know, But the perception, even
from a competitor was that we

were everywhere because we were
in the right places.

Where that occasion resonated,
you know, to your previous

point.
No.

And for example, the way we were
doing there was that sometimes

we there was a contract or like
some agreement and so on, But we

were like, yeah, I know you have
a lager.

I know you have a contract with
this brand, but do you have an

Italian lager?
You know, do you have an Italian

beer?
Oh, no, we don't.

OK, So then you don't have a
lager.

You have an Italian beer, you
know, and then all of a sudden

one draft was free for us or you
know, space in the fridge for

bottles was free for us.
So sometimes, like you can use

these categories to really play
in a smart way to actually get

as as long as you have clarity
all over your target occasion,

really bringing bringing people
in.

And and to your previous point
again, the being able to explain

it in a simple way when people
come over because you give them

some social cameras, you know
that, you know.

Now I heard a couple of three,
you know, two or three points

from Danielle and now I'm going
to show off because I bought a

bottle.
I have a dinner on Saturday

night with some friends coming
over and I'm going to show off

with, even though I'm not a
whiskey expert, you know, with

those two or three things,
saying those two or three

things.
And now I'll be perceived, you

know, interest as an interesting
guy.

You know, like talking,
navigating people through.

Because that is the power when,
when you are inclusive into the

industry and you drag people in
before you actually, you know,

like go into the geeky
conversations about how many

months was it, you know, like
and how many years and how many

months and now what, what would
and was it toasted, how how was

it toasted and all those things
that nobody.

Can, but that's the thing and
you have to, you have to pick

your audience.
But I think particularly when

you go internationally because
in your home market you will

have an advantage.
I mean I've gone on a lot over

the past few years about oh we
have to really push exports

harder.
I don't want to be as as

vulnerable to sort of the
economic conditions in my home

market.
And I can tell you our home

market is a pretty, pretty
dismal place right now.

I mean you know the major cost
of living crisis, crisis,

inflation, price pressure, we we
we believe that in a few weeks

we're going to be hearing about
a second duty increase in in

three or four months.
I mean it's it's, it's it's very

rough.
So yeah, it would be great to

sort of be out there more in the
rest of the world.

But you have to always remember
that your salience, your

relevance is always going to be
highest in the home market.

I always joke, you know, sort of
English sparkling wine is a big

new trend and they they make
some fantastic sparkling wines

in in England.
If you're in Rome and like you

said, you're invited the
Saturday night to someone's

home, what are the chances that
you're going to say I got to

bring in English sparkling wine?
It doesn't have necessarily the

same relevance out-of-the-box.
You might gain relevance from

your disruptive quality.
That will definitely happen more

among the geeks, the Spirit
fans, the people who are really

care than others.
But that's not going to be huge

swaths of the world nor can we.
You know given our limited

capacity and production
capacity, we we that's now we're

not looking to sort of be world
dominators, but I think it is

important to understand which
markets you're most likely to do

well in.
For example, somebody once told

me in the Far East you have you
have markets of what they call

discerners and markets that are
status markets.

Simply put, the discerners care
more about what's inside the

bottle, the status people care
about what's outside of the

bottle.
If you think about the Japanese

versus the Chinese, perhaps
again these are broad things.

I'm sure there's a lot of
Chinese discerners and there

might be some Japanese status
seekers, but but when when

whiskey for example was
considered in terms of gift

giving very much it was relevant
to the age or the the the the

fancy baccarat bottle or
something.

Whereas I think Japan isn't a
land where culturally people

really put a lot more focus on
how things are made.

And I think that's like for me
that feels like a very important

market for us to concentrate on
France being the same thing.

Again a market of discerners.
The other thing is to just think

about what natural advantages
your your category might have.

I remember also, I think it was
a Brian Rosen is talking about,

you know, not selling your
Minnesota bourbon and trying to

take over LA, but trying to take
over Minnesota.

It's the same thing.
Well, we're on a small island.

What can we do to get off the
island that will sort of where

can we have a natural advantage?
Well, I thought about a strategy

that we should sort of be
looking at, which I call follow

the Brits, basically think about
where the Brits go, where do

they go on holiday, where do
they emigrate to, You know,

where, where are the Anglo
loving cultures in the world?

One of our bigger export
markets, Australia, you know,

Cotswolds actually resonates.
They kind of get that.

They know what that place is and
what it sort of means.

You know, India, you know, if
you're going to go to the

Caribbean, well, there's a
certain number of islands you

should probably be focusing on
that are more of the Anglo kind

of story in the states.
You know, you can't take on the

whole state.
So where do you start?

And I thought, well, you start
with the 13 colonies, You know,

you start with the Eastern
seaboard.

England still has a lot to
offer.

I mean in terms of its, you
know, I mean we used to actually

call it Cool Britannia, I'm not
sure it's so cool anymore.

But there there's still a lot of
elements of of Englishness that

really resonate with people and
the Cotswolds is as English as

it gets as it's not like the
heart of the country.

So.
So these are all the things that

help us because you know, a lot
of brands that are of our size,

they might say, Oh yeah, we're
in 30 markets.

We're in 40 markets.
Well, that's, you know,

countries.
That sounds nice, but how much

are you really selling to each
of those markets?

You know, if you're selling a
pallet a year, great, but that

that's not going to pay any
salaries, right?

I mean that's that's nice to
say.

It's bragging rights and it's
it's good that it is available

in those countries, but you have
to focus on two or three

countries I think first before
you can do the whole world.

Absolutely, 100% agree.
You have to be no matter how

many markets you are selling it
to It's be relevant in your

homeland.
Because I always bring the

example, you know, like lot of
people like ask me and I was

like, oh, do you know this
Italian gin?

Never heard.
Sorry.

You know, but we say, you know
they're selling in Germany.

It's like, yeah.
And what, you know, like it's

like, you know if I if I go to
my my restaurant owner friends

in Rome and this is a gin from
Rome and they have never heard

about it, you know there's
something off.

So make sure that you win in
your home serve before venturing

abroad and then you know
continue to be relevant there

because if all of a sudden it
starts to be nobody drinks it

anymore because it's so much
abroad.

And I was interviewed with by a
journalist on an Italian

magazine that is called Spirito
Toktono that is a very dedicated

you know you know craft spirit
Italian craft spirit.

And and he was mentioning a
distillery in Pyrmont that

actually they locked their
volume so that they will never

they don't want to do more than
a certain percentage for export.

Because I said I want to.
I want to make sure that my

people are always getting enough
allocation of my of my, you

know, whether it's grandpa or
whiskey or whatever they are,

they are distilling.
Because you know, you need to be

relevant in your homeland
before, you know, even as much

as the US may be driving or
Australia or, you know France or

the big risky markets may drive
your revenues, then all of a

sudden it's like, you know,
don't just do opportunistic

things, huh?
But then at the same time like

it's very interesting what you
were saying about the fall of

the Brits.
Because I we actually did that

for real with Peroni in because
Peroni was so strong in the UK

for example like Dubai was
really strong and is really

strong with Peroni because of
all the breeds living there And

and The thing is that you ensure
by being available you ensure

that there is demand there is
consumer pool, you know because

automatically people will drink
it.

The same thing for example.
Then when, because I started

working with Peroni in 2010,
there was just after the

financial crisis that you
unfortunately mentioned before,

but you know there were, there
was a diaspora of Scandinavians

and Nordic people going back to
their countries, you know,

leaving London.
Then at that time that I was

selling Peroni to Stockholm,
Helsinki, Oslo and so on.

All of a sudden like you know,
those countries were going so

well because, you know, we were
selling in bars and restaurants

around the city center where the
Stock Exchange was where in all

the financial institutions
where.

And it wasn't by chance we were
doing exactly the same thing in

Oslo and in Paris.
But in Paris it was not

resonating as much as in Oslo or
in Stockholm.

Why?
Because it was a return

returning diaspora of that.
There were not Brits back then,

but you know, there were like
Norwegian, Swedish and so on.

And then also like for example,
I remember like in Barcelona

there were some bars where a lot
of Swedish tourists would go and

there were the highest selling
there on the outlets in

Barcelona because but you know,
you need to connect all those

dots if you just like spam the
world.

That we work not going to work.
I mean a great, a great, a great

example is Spain, which is a
obviously was a market everybody

wanted to get into like who made
gin because it's like was was

where the whole gin renaissance
really kind of came from and

whatever.
But it's such a competitive

market, it's cutthroat, it's
really difficult.

So for me the idea is don't try
to get into Spain nationally,

but maybe you want to try to get
into the Costa del Sol or to

Ibiza or or Majorca where the
Brits are kind of going.

And again, it's followed the
Brits.

The other places make sure that
when they leave the island, they

take something with you, right,
which is all about travel

retail.
You know that they that they

bring bring you with them.
And I feel very strongly about

travel retail that it's gone the
wrong direction for many years

and that it's been focused only
on big global brands, mainly

because they're the only ones
that can afford to sort of have

margins that are that small
because of how expensive it is

to play in those channels.
However, should whiskey be sold

like cosmetics like Chanel or
Clinique, that it's the same

thing in Tokyo that in Paris or
London or New York.

You know, I don't know about
you, but I got to the point

where I I just didn't even look
in the duty free because I knew

what I was going to see, right.
And and they kind of figured

that out.
I think they realized that there

was demand for local product,
product that was from that

region.
And like just by the time we had

just managed to get into UK
airports when you know before

COVID and they were very, they
were doing, doing very well,

very important for us, very
important shop window as

everybody calls them for getting
the brand out.

And then COVID came and of
course we don't bring in the

kind of money the big guys do.
So the first people to get

kicked out were the little guys
and and we went back to squares.

I mean there was nobody
traveling during that time, but

now the people are traveling and
they're traveling a lot and one

of the few bright spots really
on a difficult market for

spirits is travel retail.
They the duty free operators are

realizing that that's what
people want.

So both, you know two of the big
ones that are in the UK Dufree

and the Lagardere are are now
dedicating the fixtures to what

they call a sense of place, you
know sort of a terroir local

people.
And we're finally now as of a

few weeks ago back in all the UK
airports.

And I think that's really
important as well as the cruise

ships and the ferries because
again we are of our country.

So we want people to take a
little piece of England, the

Cotswolds, when they are going
somewhere as a gift or whatever.

So a very important channel.
And this is, yeah, absolutely.

And that is, that's also
connected to the to the occasion

again, because I mean if I'm
flying back from London or

whatever, like Rome and so on,
you know, I don't want to buy a,

you know, why, Why should I buy
a bottle of Scotch whisky flying

out of from Rome to Prague?
You know, it doesn't make any

sense, you know and especially
with people not being able to

buy a bottle, you know, maybe
you struggle with time, you know

you don't want to carry a bottle
all over the place and so on.

What's the easiest way to than
buying it in network like with

liquids allowance and all these
kind of?

Sizing, commoditizing, premium
spirits will be the death of

spirits.
You can't do that.

I mean, because by its nature,
if it's premium, it shouldn't be

a commodity really.
I mean, maybe in a very few

situations people do it
successfully and keep it going

that way, but I don't know.
I mean, I personally, again, as

a whiskey lover, as a whiskey
drinker, I lose interest in that

extremely quickly.
I I am looking for things that

are interesting, that are
original or that you know, that

do something for me that I can't
find globally.

Going back to the way you are
selling and the way you are

working.
So how how did you start.

So you said like you didn't have
any sales guy and guys and you

you started on you know on your
on your own which is a which is

a great things and a very big
learning you know for for for me

now because when I speak to some
founders that they don't want to

do that and then I say then then
you got you got yourself into

the wrong into the wrong
industry if you don't want to

sell yourself no.
And can you tell me more about

how you sell and did you go
direct, indirect, how did you

set up the team like growing
with the different?

Phases of and when we started
out and didn't have any

salespeople, and it's only me,
it was also because I didn't

think we really be selling much
for the first three years.

Because we were a whiskey
distillery we didn't have

whiskey.
The the the growth of the gin

completely took us by surprise,
as I mentioned.

And we realized that we did have
something to sell and something

we should sell and that we could
help build the brand in that

way.
And that's what happened was so

again it wasn't this kind of
master plan to start with the

gin and move to the whiskey.
But once people knew us for the

gin, they were probably more
likely to try the whiskey and

and then grew into that.
And you know we hired what we

had one sales guy and then we
had a second, a third and then

we we hired someone who helped
sort of bring us into the world

of grocery.
And that was a learning

experience because that's a very
challenging thing to sort of

deal with internationally
speaking.

And I'd love to say that we were
really smart and found the best

distributor in every market in
30 countries, but we weren't

like that.
It was mainly people who found

us, who came to us and said we'd
love to distribute you in such

and such a country.
And then, you know, you do your

diligence, you check them out,
you see which other brands they

have.
If there's a commonality, you

know our, our Scottish mentor
Jim Swan, you know passed away

sadly a few years ago was
involved with a number of

wonderful brands.
And we actually find ourselves

very friendly amongst each other
and very often working with

similar this the same
distributors in certain

countries because again we're
kind of known in a way as the

Jim Swan Distilleries and and
whiskey of a certain kind of

level.
So you know we might be

distributed alongside of a
Pandaren from Wales or Milk and

Honey from Israel, any number of
different distilleries that the

Jim helped to make, you know,
fantastic whiskeys.

So the model has been up until
now it's been very much

distributed, distributed model,
you know working with this

distributors in most countries
except for the US where up until

now we've basically self
distributed.

So we import ourselves via MHW
who helps us to bring it in and

do all the logistics to to the
US And then we have somebody

who's local in the States, who's
worked with us for many years

who then will deal with
distributors in a certain number

of states.
Again, it's very limited because

our means are limited and the
states are you know far bigger

than we can do in the way that
we one day would hope to do it.

And in the UK, we've done our
own trade distribution and

obviously there's our retail as
well that we do from we have not

only the visitor center that is
sorry, but two other shops in

the Cotswolds area.
So we actually have a total of

three shops.
So we do about 20% direct

customer, you know, retail
between our website and our and

our three distributors, 3 shops
rather we are going to, you know

make a change in the new year.
And we have decided that the

based on the sort of the sales
plan and the ambition that we do

need to work with a bigger
distribution platform.

And so we are going to start
working with, with a distributor

in the UK from the beginning of
next year and that will be an

interesting sort of a
transition.

But we felt that ultimately we
couldn't bring the kind of

resource to bear internally that
we require to continue the

growth of the brand and to
continue to scale.

And then this is like this is
also like clarifying the Lola

but the you know the journey now
that a founder LED brand or

distillery goes through Now like
with because because very very

often you think too big too soon
you know I'm building actually a

digital course on that I will
sell in the new year and and

I've I'm I'm going to call it
like 1 bottle one case 1 pallet

and and because I want to create
the journey for founders so that

basically like you you don't I
don't want to talk about

distributors and importers until
the last part because first you

need to master how to go out
yourself.

Well, absolutely.
To to bars, to to bottle shops

to do you know understand what
people wants before you go and

take a bottle to a wholesale
and.

When people do start to think
about distributors, they should

always refer back to Brian
Rosen's comment about that.

Nobody needs your shit.
Nobody.

Nobody needs what you have and
you start with.

Start with that.
Another comment that someone

made I thought was very good
about working with distributors

is you have to remember whether
you're paying their mortgage or

not.
You know, their sales guys who's

paying the mortgage, probably
Jack Daniels is paying the

mortgage.
That ain't you and ain't

Cotswolds.
And so you have to understand

the place that you will occupy.
And even you know the new guys

we're working with where we have
to be realistic and set our

expectations.
But I think that what you're

talking about doing makes all
the sense in the world about 1

bottle, one case, 1 pallet.
And I think it makes sense

because this industry went
through its biggest growth over

the last 10 years based on an
awful lot of tailwinds.

You know, it was, I mean, low
interest rates, Goldilocks

economies, which we didn't, I
think really even knew at the

time.
We're Goldilocks, but we look

back on them and say if only we
were where we were five years

ago or whatever.
You know, I spend a lot of time

from my old job thinking about
where we are in the big, big

picture, big cycle.
And I don't think we're in a

particularly great place.
I think a lot of people feel

that way.
There's people who are very

contrarian and say when
everybody is depressed and down,

that's the when there's blood on
the streets, that's when you

should be buying the stock
market, as they say, because

it's going to turn around.
I'm not yet sure.

I believe that.
I think it's as a small brand

owner, you can't afford to be
contrarian.

You have to listen to the way
the winds are blowing.

And I think instead of
tailwinds, we're going to have

headwinds.
We're going to have headwinds

for a couple of years.
It's not going to, that's not to

say that you can't do well.
That's not to say that brands

cannot succeed, cannot grow,
cannot do good things, just say

it's going to be a lot harder
than it was in the past.

And I, you know, would be the
first one to say that I think

some of the elements in our
success, yes, we had a, you

know, my, the guy who ran the
company, who founded the company

I worked for for 30 years, he
used to have it.

He said something to me once in
my first years.

He said in life it's not enough
to have a gimmick and it's not

enough to work hard.
You have to have a gimmick and

work hard.
And that's exactly so.

I think we have a lot of
gimmicks.

It's not really fair to say
gimmicks, but we have a we have

a great brand story, we have a
great whiskey.

But without the hard work, it's
not going to get you where you

need to get.
And and I think over the coming

years, hard work is going to be
what it's all about.

They also say like you know you.
Make your own.

Luck.
What is it like?

Luck is where an opportunity
preparation you know it's it's

also like sometimes like you you
see my LinkedIn post daily and

and you know sometimes like
people comment nice like yeah

come on dudes you know like this
takes too long.

Like you know what are you
talking about?

And it's like like this is the
only way to make it work and it

doesn't mean that it will work,
you know.

But if you do it the other way
from top down, it surely won't

work because this is not the
days anymore And I'm I'm, I'm,

I'm having a bit of a crusade
now against this you know media

and trade media.
When I see all these articles

saying this guy is like you
know, I didn't know what I was

doing and now I sold for a
billion dollars and to XYZ and

it's like you know, I mean did
this these things are what drag

people into the industry with
full Smiths and and fake hopes

kind of thing.
And it's like it's it's about

it's about you know like you you
you you remember your own

struggles you know like and it's
not about like I was lucky and

then I sold out I.
You know, yeah, I mean, I, you

know, I, I, I I haven't been in
this industry a very long time

and you know, coming up in 10
years.

But it it's funny.
There was somebody who I met

years before I ever had this
idea when I was living in Paris,

and this guy by the name of
Alexon Gabrielle, who if you

familiar with Plantation Rum
Citadel, Gin cognac.

I met Alexander just by chance
in Paris.

Our wives became sort of
friends.

And I thought what he did was
really fascinating.

But I said, God, that guy works
hard and he's been building

brands for, you know, now 30
years or whatever.

And he's still out there at it.
And I've watched how he does it

and it's very much always been
bottom up.

It's one one bar at a time, 1
conference at a time, one

speaking gig at a time.
And I hugely respect that.

And that's, you know, I think
it's really it is important also

as you grow to have people who
you know become your kind of,

you know, your idols and and or
people who you want to emulate

to service models for you in
terms of how they do things.

100% and I, and I always, always
bring the the example because I

don't have my own brand now or
yet or I don't know if I will

ever have.
But let's say my brand is the

podcast now.
And I like making parallels

between the podcast brand
building and drinks brands brand

building.
And it's really like, sometimes

I think about it and I go to a
bar, I speak to the to the

barman and then somebody sits
next to me.

And then it's like, you know,
the conversation goes on like

having a cocktail or two.
And then it's, oh, like by the

way, I have a, you know, I have
the podcast.

Oh, what's the name of the
podcast?

Oh yeah.
And then I I literally, like 80%

of the time, literally I type it
into Spotify or Apple podcast

for them.
I I follow it myself, you know,

on their phone.
And those are two people, you

know, and it took and I I was
there, I don't know, like an

hour and it's two people, you
know.

So it's like to to gain 2
followers, that's what it takes,

you know.
And then sometimes it's, you

know, you talking about it.
I mean you discovered it through

Maurice Doyle and when he posted
it on LinkedIn, you know, and

it's it's really like that.
It's really bottom.

And then, you know, one thing is
to press follow.

The other thing is to repeatedly
consuming now.

So I I got the distribution, I
got the bottle on the back

button.
With the.

Follow button and then I need I
need a good rotation.

You know, another good good
example, one of one of our guys

who focuses on the on trade and
very much has been focusing on

sort of pub groups.
I think the one that he's really

worked the hardest on has been
Fuller's, which is a really nice

chain of of pubs.
Good demographic good.

You know, it's SE, it's you know
the demographics are good or

whatever.
You know that started with a

couple of couple of pubs, a bar
behind a couple of things.

Then he went back and he went
back and he he just, I mean it's

been a couple of years working
on it, but now finally, you know

we've got a must stock across
200 pubs and we do you know a

few 100 cases a year.
But I mean that wasn't sort of

coming in and saying can we get
a must stock and do a few 100

cases.
That was literally starting with

you know a few relationships and
just a lot of hard work.

So that's how you have to do it.
So I think that's a that's a

nice way to to wrap it up we I
don't want to take and steal

more of your time.
I know you are.

You're on the road then you need
to, you need to hit some pubs

now and bars.
Let us know how, how can people

find you and where to find you
and how to to contact.

Yeah well I mean I'm certainly
you know on on on LinkedIn I I

try and do as much of of of my
own PR as as I can.

But we do have fantastic guys
who do that as well for us and

get us, get us, you know, fair,
fair bit of press.

But we've got our website, we've
got our online sales, we're in

various places.
And if you want to hear more

about this crazy story, I even
Dover COVID wrote a book about

it which is on Amazon.
And so you know, and I'm also

just, I'm happy to talk to
anyone.

If you come to the distillery,
which I hope you do and all your

listeners do ask for me, I'd be
happy to show you around.

It's what I do best and what I
enjoy most, so.

Fantastic.
So thanks.

Thanks a lot, Daniel.
Thanks for your time.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a twoart

eisode 37 and 38.
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for more insights about building
brands from the Bottom U.