Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson. I'm the developer of the Essential Dynamics framework and, host of this Essential Dynamics podcast. I'm thrilled to have Mike Palmer back on. Mike, thanks for coming back.
Mike:Thank you.
Derek:On the podcast, we like to explore, principles of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. Mike kinda laid it all out there in our last episode about, how he went from budding doctor to, landscape construction entrepreneur. And just to kind of at the end of the podcast, last time, Mike, you were talking about how the I you know, if if I were to put it in slightly different words from what you said, you you talked about how you loved your work because it was solving these complex problems. And every time you solve a problem, you're able to advance, your organization. I believe that you, have always done really good work, and so you have this solid reputation.
Derek:You grew by referrals. But at some point, the business got, hit the limit of your own personal capacity to run it. And, and you talked about the burden of going home and having everything on your back. And and how that you didn't say this, but I I know that's relentless. Right?
Derek:Like, there's too many problems to solve, no place to turn. And, what what was your, what what would you say your sort of level of optimism was at some of those harder points?
Mike:Well, my level of optimism at some of those harder points would be like, I am done. Someone else can deal with this.
Derek:But but
Mike:to be honest, there there is two things that kinda brought me back around. One was I'm a I'm a husband and a father, and it's my responsibility to take care of them and protect them. And and I never wanted my children to ever be left wanting. And so that what what kinda brought me back, that was the one thing, and my wife's unfailing, support.
Derek:And and then And then Carry on.
Mike:Sorry. Go ahead. No. You go ahead, Derek.
Derek:So so that provided, I'm not necessary maybe we'll get to your wife in a second. I'm not sure that that that's an automatic formula for optimism, but it's definitely a formula for not quitting.
Mike:Yeah. Well, you know, for me, and we talk about this as a team all the time, is is creating that vision, or as you call it, those drivers. Right? That at the end of the day, when you can't, at the end of the day, food has to go on the table. At the end of the day, you need a place to live.
Mike:And that was my level of motivation at times. That's a fact. But what what kinda brought me so that that was a foundation. But second to that is I also had a lot of very good, people that I work with, and I dreaded ever letting them down. They I still have I have a couple well, more than a couple.
Mike:A good number of staff members that had sacrificed and continue to sacrifice a lot for Valley Landscape. And the fact that I just couldn't let them down, I I there's no way I could let them down. And, so that when things were hard, that's what kept me going was I just I I didn't ever I've always had the attitude, Derek, that if something didn't ever work out, it wasn't going to be because I didn't do everything within my power and to to not allow that to happen. There's been many circumstances in my life, whether it's in business or in personal where something happens and it's like, you know, do I wanna look back after this this, difficult time has passed? And do I wanna be able to say, hey.
Mike:If it didn't work out, I put everything on the table. I put everything on the line. Or do I wanna look back and say, oh, but what if? I never wanted to have a what if life. I always wanted to have a this was because of something that I did and planned and worked with other people and did my absolute best to solve the problem.
Mike:And sometimes if that's not good enough, then that's okay. I'm okay with it then, but not if I don't put it all on the line.
Derek:So so I, I I feel like I should take my question back because, when you talk like that, optimism isn't, doesn't have to be a factor. Like the sense of responsibility is so great that, that's all the motivation you need. Now, you need a little bit more than that because you, you need to your mind to shift to a different place so you can see problems differently and solve them differently. But I I I just wanna, sort of highlight the emphasis on responsibility, which is not something that seems to be all that popular sense
Mike:of responsibility, to me, it's it's like when I I I like the analogy of looking at a picture, any picture. I think too many times when we have problems, whether it be in in life or in business, we we get our eyes right up close to that picture where we can't see the whole picture. We're only seeing a small little portion of it. And at times, we just take a step back and and look at so you can see the whole picture, whether, you know, insert the picture to be problem, insert the picture to be opportunity. But if we don't step back to take a look at the whole picture, you how do you ever go about solving to get to where you wanna be?
Mike:Does that does that make sense?
Derek:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. One of the ways I think about that, and, you know, sometimes we talk about working in the business, which is in the day to day, on the production line, creating value for the customer. And then working on the business, which is stepping back and looking at the system with which we create that value, and seeing if there are better ways to set up that or operate that system. And when you're in the system, you can't see the system.
Derek:No. %, you can't see the system. No. And and so stepping back, and I you you took that opportunity. When you stepped back from this business that was a burden on your back, when you step back a little bit, what did you see and what was different?
Mike:So when I step back, I saw what what you just said is, like, I was way too involved in the business, so much the fact that it Mike Palmer was the limiting part of the business. Does that make sense? Like, I was the the constraint of the business in a very real sense.
Derek:So, I I I just I have to say this because this was an insight I got, only recently. We talk about the general principle that's discussed in the theory of constraints that management attention is the ultimate constraint to the business. But I also know that there's actual, actually a production flow, and somewhere in that production flow, there's probably a, you know, an actual constraint of how the value is created. And my my realization when I when I finally got it clear in my head was, the constraint of the business, the in the business thing we're talking about, is some physical constraint of flow.
Mike:Yes.
Derek:And and the constraint of on the business is management's ability to pay attention to the right things. So when the the guy, the Mike Balmer, the owner is in the business, you're both. Like like Yeah. People can't make a decision because the boss has to be there to check it. People can't, can't solve a problem because the boss is the only one who knows how to solve the problem.
Derek:You become the constraint of operating in the business, and that's what that's what was happening. Right?
Mike:Exactly what was happening. Now I do, that is a very good summary. And I do wanna clarify something going. You and I have talked about this before that, you know, some people when they get going on a business, they're like, I don't wanna allow myself to get caught working in the business. I just wanna work on the business.
Mike:And I think that sometimes business owners sell themselves a bit short. Because they've never worked in the business, they don't have the ability to solve problems the way that all somebody else had done is worked on the business. Like, how do you work on the business if you don't know what the business is? Is? So I'm I'm not suggesting, you and I have talked about this plenty of times that, you know, I wasn't physically behind the shovel, although I, I wasn't necessarily in the machine unless I wanted to.
Mike:And as you know, I actually I love getting in in a dozer, like or a grader. Like, I I just you know, every you feel like you're a little kid playing in a sandbox, but it it yes. That that concept of of me becoming was and that was a very humbling realization to actually have to make and admit to yourself that say, listen. You're you're the I used to always talk about constraints. What's the bottleneck in the business?
Mike:And not only you're looking to me, looks to look, and then it's like, hey. You actually are the constraint here, Mike, and you need to do something about that if if you wanna continue to grow. And that's the other thing that you know, Derek, I don't like to have things just good and steady. And my neighbour, Brent, at my house, he's like, Mike, you just love to make problems for yourself, don't you? He said this to me about ten years ago, and I'm like, I would have been taken back by that at first, but I thought, you know what, Brent, that's actually true.
Mike:But yes, how do you move things forward? And that's humbling, I think, to It was very humbling for me to realize, yeah, you know what? I needed to do this for my mental health, for the relationships that I had. I had to do it. I was almost forced into that position.
Mike:Not because of complacency, but because of my attitude that I always want to allow things to grow. Because by all means, Derek, and you know this, things could have just kept going the same. And for some people, that's good, but that was not good for me. So
Derek:Well, so what what changed or what changed first? So you've stepped back and you've said, hey. I'm so tied up in the business. I'm slowing things down. So so what did you what did you change?
Mike:I picked up the phone and called Derek Hudson. And if if that's what you're asking, I knew I needed help, but I also knew that I'd have to allow myself to be vulnerable, and I I just call it correct or not, I wasn't willing to be vulnerable with just anybody. You know, exposing yourself takes it once again, there's a there's a certain level of humility and courage, and and I needed to know who I was gonna deal with. And and, and I've known you for some time, and and you were having a change in employment. I'm like, oh, man.
Mike:I actually I'm gonna call him. And I I think, Derek, you actually called me.
Derek:I got I think I got you first, but we were on the same page right away.
Mike:Well, you called me, but I was literally I just didn't I'm like, Derek's this former executive and knows all this stuff, and I had always been wanting like, oh, he doesn't have time for somebody. Like like, he's, you know, very nice man, but wouldn't you know, he's too busy with this important stuff, and I I'm not. And then so we chatted, and then you you what did it for me was really helping to get this stuff out of my head first. Just talking about it was one, but then coming up with a framework of how to do something about it. And that was really transformational to not only myself, but to to the business because I I still remember as we start so we got together as a group, all of my my main staff, and and and we talked about these things of, like, you know, these are the kinda the valley landscape that we wanna build together, and the staff member were all all on board.
Mike:And I still remember feeling when they said, yeah. This is this is what we wanna do too, it's just a huge sense of relief. And I I I still remember I got quite emotional because it was like, Wow, like, these people really are all in with this business, and it it it has totally changed my perspective since.
Derek:So there was one moment when you felt that weight go away?
Mike:Yes.
Derek:And, I imagine you've felt weight again, but it's not the same?
Mike:Not the same at all. So we, it's not the same knowing that somebody's carrying that weight with you. And that's, literally, we see, you know, two people carry a hundred pound weight, it's a heck of a lot easier to carry than just one does it itself. Well, figuratively in in business, I believe that's the same as well.
Derek:One of the things that I know happened is you've given your team responsibility, but it's not just delegation. It's not just or or abdication. You guys are building a system, and, your focus now is on, you know, is on what's what does the system need to do, and and how's it gonna get set up, and is it working as opposed to being a cog in the wheel in that system.
Mike:That's right. And and that's a totally different paradigm. Right? To well, first of all, to get to that point in the system, Derek, as you would note, is a lot of work. That that's a that's a ton that's a ton of work to figure out what works, and and this system for us is continually evolving.
Mike:It's it's not like it's done, but that's that's where I come in. That's my job. It's okay. This part of the system isn't working. What do we need to do to improve the system?
Mike:And the fact of the matter is that is if I'm not step back to look at that, how does the problem ever get solved? So you end up spinning in this hamster wheel without that system because you you can't you don't even know the problem's there. And and because you're too close to the picture if going back to that analogy. And and so, yeah, that's that's been reinvigorating for myself is, k. These these these processes are in place.
Mike:There's checks in place. I needed to know that that, hey. I'm willing to to invest in trust in these individuals, but I still need to know that it's not just close my eyes and and and stop. And so I I spent a lot of time working on that system and and say, okay. You know, this is kinda working, but this needs to be tweaked over here.
Mike:This is just not working. It needs to be changed all altogether. And and, you know, it's interesting because whenever we have just yesterday, whenever we've had incidents or problems show up, it's when people do not follow the system. And and including myself, you know, if I find myself wanting to I have a bunch of other things to do, and I find myself wanting to hop in that big piece of equipment because it's just relaxing for me. Like, you cannot do that.
Mike:You've gotta stay focused on on what you have to get done. And so so yeah.
Derek:So, you said almost categorically that if a problem arises, it's because someone didn't follow the system.
Mike:That's exactly it. And we go through time and time again. It's like, okay. What happened here? Was the process fall?
Mike:No. It wasn't. And okay. Well, let's it's great because you have that confidence to fall back on it. By all means, there's still some things that arise, and it's like, okay.
Mike:The framework is that we now need to develop something for that. And I think we've been good too of not because I do believe that you can over complicate the system. Doctor.
Derek:Yeah. Doctor. Rick Ross (zero
Mike:fifty three:fifty seven): Right? Where you're sitting there so much, you're running things by a checklist. And I do think there's that fine balance between, okay, we're operating this by checklist versus something that has flow to it. Right? You and I have talked about flow.
Mike:There needs to be good flow to things. And if there's not good flow to things, why is that happening? Well, it could be happening because there is no system process in place, or it could be because the process that's in place is so burdensome that you just You're looking more at the paper instead of a job site.
Derek:That's fantastic. Now, I'm just taken back to your respiratory therapy checklist. Yeah. You know, that's so as crazy as full circle, you know, I think you've taught us an important principle is is the checklist or the system has to promote the flow and no more.
Mike:And Yes.
Derek:And the problem that you had with respiratory therapy, and I've had in my mind with, optometrists, because I spent a lot of time in their office as a kid, and as an adult, and dentists to a lesser degree, is, they know how their days are gonna go. They're solving problems all day, but it's it's kind of within this limited set of, variables that they work with.
Mike:Yes.
Derek:And us business people, that's too constraining for us. We want more variables.
Mike:Yes. And, Derek, people think that we're somewhat crazy for that hindsight, but that really does fuel me. Like, I I love the challenge of once again, going back, well, what did you learn in business school that applies to landscaping? And it's like, I learned a framework that I not not egotistically or arrogantly, say this, but I I just really feel like I have the tools in place to be able to solve problems. And then, working with the Unconstrained group, that's just continued to grow, and it it's literally reinvigorated me.
Mike:We we we had a couple people that, were interested in acquiring value. I was even like, like, this is so bad. I'm just gonna sell this business. Someone else can deal with the problems. So then now it's like, you know what?
Mike:If somebody were to want to acquire Valley Landscape, it would have to be a great offer, not just a good offer because I'm loving what I'm doing again. I feel reinvigorated. I feel, that there's not a lot of there there's very few things that aren't fulfilling. I'm excited to go to work. I like going to work.
Mike:I like seeing the people that I work with, whether it be a person that's sweeping a floor or watering a plant or or Tim that's managing all of my operations. I just I love seeing these people. I love being with them. And and having these frameworks in place have really created safety. And and, going back to those university days, it's it's really created a framework where it's not a limited thing.
Mike:Like, it's the principles are in place to continue to grow and continue to learn and continue to to overcome those obstacles, not just for me, but for for everybody that I work with.
Derek:So, Mike, this has been fantastic. Now I just wanna put you on the spot a little bit. So you build this system over a few years, and you start to get confidence in it. What has that system allowed you to do in terms of growth in your company in in the last well?
Mike:So, like, numbers growth? Or
Derek:Well, you you don't have to share numbers, or or you can if you want, but, I I you've seen a a you you got a lot more work on your hands than you used to have.
Mike:Yeah. So, definitely. So it it has allowed us to grow. So our staff has our the number of staff that we have has doubled. Our sales has, grown in the past.
Mike:The first year we started doing this, to to be honest, there weren't a lot of tangible results that I could see other than what I felt. I don't really ask what you felt, but, like, I I can feel inside there was a difference. So I was looking at that as my investment of time. So for the first two years, it you know, we were kind of working through things, but this past year, because of the system and framework that we have had in place, has allowed us to take on greater, way, way larger projects. And I I believe we can continue to take on those larger projects.
Mike:And, yeah, like, it, it has been an instrumental change in and in in my business as a whole, our our sales are, have grown this past year over 50% year over year, and and it's only continuing to grow. We haven't had a backlog in work like we have now in probably nine or ten years. And that was through COVID as well when things were slow. So our backlog, which is a good thing, has continued to increase because the amount of work coming our way is is significant, and it's great because we get to do projects that are really neat and a lot of fun and challenging, but that's what makes them fun is that they're challenging and there's there's things to continue to work on and to continue to learn and continue to grow. So
Derek:So, Mike, thanks for this. This has been, enlightening and fantastic. In parting, do you have any advice for business owners who feel like they go home with everything on their back?
Mike:Yeah. Is is as scary as it can be to open open up to, solving those problems, that is exactly what you need. You need to be able to sit with somebody that knows how to such as the team at Unconstrained, that knows how to strategically work through these things. Because I would suggest that it it it it has to be the right fit with whoever it is that you're you're working with. And, but you have to be able to be vulnerable and and humble and agile, aggressive.
Mike:And I know that those things may seem, how the heck does that work together? But you you have to take advantage of the opportunities as they present themselves. And, you know, don't be afraid to ask for help. I think as business owners, we start, and it's like you realize there's sometimes it's lonely, but there's so many people that wanna help. There's there's just so many people that that wanna help and wanna see your success even within your own industry.
Mike:Some great relationships that I have are relationships within our own industry, and we talk about our problems together. Hey, this is what I'm experiencing. And and and, you know, some some other some of my competitors in the industry, we don't. That everything's closed closed book, closed chestnut. We don't talk about numbers and all that stuff, but we openly talk about the challenges that we're having.
Mike:So it starts with talking about it, and then then having the courage, and I guess the willingness and determination to invest in that because you're, you know, you're not gonna necessarily see the outcome of that. Maybe you will. Maybe some other companies are a lot more, you see some of the financial results of that. But even if you can just be able to go home at night and know that you've got a a group of people that are carrying that load with you, just knowing that, for your own, mental health and sanity is where how much does that work? To have improved relationships with your family and friends, and and I don't think you can put a number on that.
Mike:To be able to to serve in the community. I don't I don't think you can put a number on that. And so those those things to me are the most valuable thing that I always wanna be available to help, another person. And,
Derek:for
Mike:me to be able to do that in a in the way that I wanna do it, I need to have space in my mind to be able to do that. And working with, somebody like yourself, Derek, allows me to do that. So
Derek:Hey. Thanks. That's, I think that's I think that's a topic of another podcast, but we'll have to arrange that later. Mike
Mike:Mike Palmer I wasn't mean. Go ahead, Derek.
Derek:No. Mike Palmer, Valley Landscape. Thanks very much for, for being on the podcast. I'm happy that you have a team that you can share the burden with. And if we go back to the essential dynamics, concept of being on a quest, what an awesome fellowship you've, built around you.
Derek:So I think that's, that makes all the difference in the world. And, and I've seen your family support up close as well. So, pleasure to be working with you and to have you on the podcast. So thanks, Mike. Thanks, Brynn.
Bryn:Yeah. No problem, Derek. Hey. One thing we do have to remind our listeners, this episode brings season three of Essential Dynamics to a close. Now in season three, we focus on helping leaders of organizations get clear on their challenges, their opportunities, and we've had some great conversations too, like today's with Mike Palmer, who's a great way to wrap up season three.
Bryn:But make sure you stay tuned for season four, which is coming soon, and we intend to make essential dynamics more accessible, more useful, and more powerful in the lives and the organizations of our listeners. But, Derek, we don't wrap this up unless you say it.
Derek:And until next time, everyone. Consider your quest.