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Authentic gay conversations on personal development, life coaching, and mental health. Join Keegan Hirst, founder of Gay Man's Coaching and former professional rugby player, for weekly real talk about gay lifestyle, coming out, relationships, business, and authentic living. Deep, honest conversations that help gay men build confidence, find community, and create vibrant, unapologetic lives.
00:00
Hello and welcome to Gay Man's Coaching podcast. The podcast for men who want to build the best versions of themselves, who want to build a life that they're proud of. And I'm really excited about this week's episode because I am going to be chatting to John Bell, who is the resident psychotherapist at GMC. And we're going to be talking about things that crop up with a lot of our clients, how we help them, some of the patterns, the reasons why, and how we work on them. But just before I get into that,
00:30
Couple of announcements that we've got we have got our in-person coaching and the GMC games coming up on the 6th and 7th of March If you want to come to that get yourself there. It's an opportunity to be coached in person Have a bit of a social with the guys the GMC games is so such a great event It's there for every single ability whether you're just getting started whether you've been training for years
01:00
It's an incredible opportunity to get together as well as we've got the activity days coming up and we're doing two activity days this year. We're doing one in the UK which is going to be down in near Cardiff. We're to be doing whitewater rafting and we're going to be getting together for a bit of a social. There's going to be some other stuff going on and then we're doing one over in the US in April. It's going to be in Los Angeles. It's at the UCLA
01:29
ground, there's going to be uh high wire, high ropes, climbing, there's going to be some physical stuff to do out in the sun, it's going to be amazing. We want to get as many people as there as we can because the more people that we get to our events, the more events that we can do and more opportunities that we have for people to get there. So really excited about those coming up. We do have one spot available uh for our Edinburgh multi-day event, which is at the end of March.
01:57
So if that's something that you're interested in, is one place left. It's gonna, I think it's gonna be our best event that we've ever done. But let me get into this episode with John Bell. Me and John have worked together as part of GMC for coming up to five years now. John has been an integral part of what we do at GMC. As you all know, GMC is not just a coaching programme. In fact, I don't believe that...
02:26
for the vast majority of people, just need a coaching programme. One of the big things that people come to us with is that they say that they want their health and their fitness and looking after themselves to be integrated into their lives, to be a part of who they are and for it not to feel like it's a slog. And to do that, have to, you could have the best training programme in the world, the best coach in the world, the best gym in the world, but if it's not part of who you are and your identity,
02:53
then it's never gonna be integrated into your life. And that is something that we do at GMC is we help people build the identity of the person that they want to be, and then we give them the space and the opportunity and the support to be able to step into that. And John has been a big part of that with all the work that we do on breaking down old patterns and behaviours and things that stop us from taking that step into that next identity. And...
03:20
John is an incredible psychotherapist, successful business, used to play rugby league as well. Me and John didn't cross paths when we played because he's a little bit more mature than I am. But John is an incredible psychotherapist who's worked with lots of our guys one on one. He is an incredible colleague and I'm proud to say a fantastic friend. And I'm really excited to get into this episode and for you to hear his insights.
03:49
And yeah, let's go. John Bell. John, welcome. Welcome to Game Man's podcast. mean, you're a, you're a, a, part of the furnishing era, Game Man's coaching out here. Yeah, man. It's been a while, hasn't it? It's to be here. Thank you, mate. Thank you. No, no, thank you. I'm looking forward to this. think, think this will be especially useful for those people who look successful on paper, but maybe feel as if things are not quite aligned or things are not.
04:19
and marrying up. So let's delve straight into it, because you've got some great clinical experience with working with gay men and gay men's coaching clients. So diving straight in here, when people come to you and they say that they feel stuck, what are they actually meaning? It's a really good question. I thought about this. I thought about this last couple of days, actually. What does stuck mean? A lot of the time...
04:45
Stuck is a really cautious euphemism that edges someone into a conversation about something deeper, invariably. We use stuck as a byword for depressed, unfulfilled, a crossroads around relationships, difficulties around communicating with family. And so stuck is one of those halfway houses that we often hear. But more than that, it's a jumping off point for a conversation about what's going on for them.
05:14
And invariably it comes down to a lack of fulfillment. em You know, and I know that we work with clients all over the world with varying degrees of success and challenge in their lives. But ultimately the success part often shrouds quite a lot of that part of their life that is looking for fulfillment, looking for more. Unfinished business. Interestingly, a lot of the times stuckness and that lack of fulfillment.
05:42
comes to the surface invariably when other areas of their life are doing really well and yet something's just not feeling okay. And so we get stuckness through. Yeah, because they've done the I'll be happy when, I'll be happy when and then they knock those off and they don't get them. I think as well, what I've come to realise over the years of coaching and speaking to people is people like to kind of minimise how
06:12
Bad something is, don't they? So stuck is cute and coy versus I feel like a shit has ditched, completely misaligned with my life. Like I hate my relationship or whatever. It's easy. I can't shake the shame. I can't shake the shame. I have lived with shame and you know, message for all listeners tuning into this, we all live with shame. We either manage it we don't. But you know, I've got some...
06:42
um i've got some shame that i've ever dealt with i've got some issues around what that shame means around around my sense of pride of self my sense of uh esteem and yeah it is it is a is a coy way of edging towards i think i might not be okay and i don't know what to do well let's let's delve into that shame piece because i know obviously you kind of have specialized in vulnerability and shame and it's it's your
07:10
You know, your raise on dexterous, so to speak. So I'm a right laugh. He actually is believe it or not. But you know, I would, I would like to say that like our, our clients are on the surface, high achieving, high functioning, gay men who probably, you know, often don't feel like they've got any kind of internalized shame or shame issues. So what does shame look like for those people? How does it show up?
07:40
Shame is story we tell ourselves, ultimately. And what you'll often find is, a stylized outward shame is around the places we won't go, around the things that we won't interact with, around our protections that we throw up as well. And so, oftenly, a finally manicured lawn of a human being often carries a few shame bugs in there if you really, really stare. But what you want is, want people to, people want to see the outward package of everything that's been absolutely fine. And so...
08:09
I usually track shame around self-talk, around limiting beliefs, around uh blame of self, around almost a funnel of experience leading down to really tenuous and often overbearing accountability and blame for situations. know, my dad did this when I was younger, but I shouldn't have done this. You know, I don't really speak to parents, but you know, when I did come out, I did sort of land it on them.
08:39
um you know we working through a relationship i'm working through a relationship at minute and you know if i just keep if i just keep trying harder and pleasing and and you know i think it's on me you know i can be this i can be that ultimately it's around a level of accountability that's manageable but often unaddressed yeah yeah um know it's like perfectionism ties in with that doesn't it like people people are unfair with themselves about what they could have done in a situation or what they are capable of and
09:06
find themselves overworking, find themselves trying to control everything, find themselves people pleasing. And it's crippling. And I think I've often said to you that, you know, I've had people come up to me and talk about people pleasing and they'll say, oh, well, you see, I'm a people pleaser. Yeah. And it's really hard for me not to turn around in a social event and go, well, that's a load of shame, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, that must be really heavy. think, I think we've taken people pleaser pleasing and brought it in.
09:35
is once again a little bit like the whole thing around being stuck as a stylized way of saying Made it cute. Made it cute. it's got no metrics of success as people please in. That overstretch, it's got no metrics because the more you do it, the more you do it, the more you do it, the more you identify with it. It's like painting the fourth road bridge. You're never going to be finished because you're constantly, constantly doing it because you're eliciting that sense of validation and that sense of...
10:01
meaning and purpose from the responses you get and you always get a diminishing return because people never stop you while you're giving them what they want and so you always have to be available. This is where we get burnout, this is where we get unequal relationships, this is where we get em people having to basically lie and gaslight themselves and gaslight themselves saying this is a happy life, this is fulfilling when really it's driven by shame and a sense of inadequacy and that sense of not being enough and ultimately shame you know to quote Brené Brown.
10:31
shame is I am the problem, guilt is I did a thing that I will fix. Shame is I am the problem to fix and I don't know if I can. So for you then with shame and you've got a vast amount of experience now, how does that shame that manifests itself as those things, the people pleasing, the perfectionism, the overworking, all that kind of stuff, how from your conversations that you've had with clients, how does that ruin their life sometimes? And often it's really... uh
11:01
It's insidious, isn't it? It's not a thing that's happened overnight. Someone wakes up one morning and they're in their 40s, in their 50s, in their 60s and they go, fuck. So from the conversations that you've had, how is that shame run somebody's life to that point where they finally wake up and go, fucking hell, I've not been in control here.
11:30
driven by shame? It's a really interesting question and you're right, it is insidious. And invariably we will find clients with, and people in general in high shame who've got no idea that shame is running their life. It's usually visible through poor self-talk, through overstretched, as we've just said, self-attack, overstretched, self-talk, really, really poor self-talk. This idea that I'll Give us an example of-
12:00
that kind of self-talk, what that might be that would indicate that there's a lot of shame driving the wagon. So when we place aspiration or notional aspiration in front of a client or in conversation, how someone responds to the idea of achievement, of being seen to achieve, of trying to do that, that's not for me, that's not what I do kind of talk about, or this is going to be really difficult. Or when you...
12:29
And certainly in clinical situations, in therapy situations, when you ask someone to aspire to an idea of an outcome around love, around fulfillment, around connection, and what they do is they tell you negative stories back about their experience, about how it went. Yeah. know, and once again, Brenier Brown talks about this, you ask people about love and they tell you about heartbreak. Shame drives really limiting narratives around how we see our life. And once again, it's stylized and
12:59
It's perfected to a point of finesse where this is how we talk. We tell our shameful stories to one another and we don't always pick up on the fact that what we're doing is saying, I can't and I can't and I don't feel and I don't feel and I will never, never, I won't ever be able to, and I won't ever be able to. And we're exchanging these things. that's really insidious stylized socialized self-attack. It's there in a lot of clients. em then, and then the conditional, the conditional aspect of it.
13:29
I'll be worthy when I'll do well when if I just get to this. I did a video recently and I talked about the horrible nature of New Year's resolutions. People say New Year, new me as a therapist. There's nothing more. She, I mean, it basically says the last 12 months, weren't good enough. So we're up in a level of reinvention.
13:52
that completely disregards who we are in order to move forward. And I know that's slightly hard to overlook, but it's actually stemmed in, it's got a grain of truth. There's a stem of it that's really, really true, which is this idea that somehow we're never enough and we need to get to a level of worthiness that it's not realistic. Yeah. And you talked there about Brene Brown and you talked about... oh
14:15
And when we talk about shame, we talk about vulnerability, right? Shame lives in the shadows and shame lives in the dark and shame lives in by not talking about it. So I know, you you've already quoted Brené Brown twice in us chatting and she's big on vulnerability. And I know you did, that was a big part of your degree, wasn't it? It was in and around vulnerability. So a question, and this is something that I know clients talk about and we talk about with clients and
14:44
And people, again, people with shame who are scared of sharing their wins and their progress will say, this is oversharing rather than vulnerability. So the question is, what is the difference between oversharing and vulnerability? It's a really good question. And you only ever really find out when you're learning around vulnerability and you're developing a healthy relationship with vulnerability, when you get your knuckles wrapped and when you get a little bit burnt. Yeah. Because... uh
15:13
My vulnerability and my story says nothing about me if you use it unwisely, cruelly, nastily, if I've invested in you and shared with you. If I continue to share with you and you do not hold my vulnerability for the beauty and for the uh confidentiality and the humanity that it represents, then that's an overshare.
15:37
Yeah. So in the modern world in which we live, seeing people blurt their details all over social media posts, invariably, and for reasons that are unfortunately quite sad and do need support, it's because people are looking for validation, looking for mass validation. And someone going to the hospital for medical reasons is not always my business. Someone who's had a breakup.
16:03
It's not always my business and yet we're all interconnected. And so the ability to overshare on social media is there at the flick of a button. But vulnerability essentially is I'm going to hand you an aspect of who I am because I believe that the handing of it to you is going to enrich me and enrich you. And in that moment, we're going to meet one another. We're going to see one another. We're going to understand this like microculture between us. And it's going to enhance our understanding of not just each other, but how we navigate the world.
16:33
Yeah. And if you balls up and ruin it, then it's on you. We feel shame a lot of the time when someone balls up and ruins it, but nevertheless that shame is not ours to carry. It's the person who made the mistake to do the share or. Yeah, literally shame on them. Yeah, it's shame on them to a certain extent. Yeah. It's funny just eating this conversation just reminded me of a conversation that I had with Maureen, as you know, my...
17:01
uh therapist of many a year and she said something to me years, probably going on 10 years ago and I've never forgotten it. Because I would say, I would tell her that when I met somebody new or got certainly in a relationship kind of situation, I would kind of basically throw everything at them with like and call it vulnerability. And she would say, well, that's, you have a feeling that you're going to be rejected.
17:31
So you're just getting it out of the way early and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because that person goes, whoa, that's a lot. em And I'd say you're probably stress testing as well. You're saying, can you handle this? Yeah. And she said that's kind of rude and it comes back to the shame. comes back to those limiting beliefs, those stories that we tell ourselves. It's interesting, isn't it? Because like I said, there's no right or wrong answer for...
17:57
vulnerability to oversharing its person-dependent and recipient-dependent. even though I would say that in 2026, most of us know that we need to share to connect properly, I would hope we do. Why do you think that a lot of men hide from that when that is the thing that we need most for connection, especially when we're talking about this male loneliness epidemic that we're apparently in?
18:27
It's a really interesting question because I don't think it's ever been better. mean, the statistics around male suicide, around loneliness, around gay loneliness, they absolutely tell a story that things do need to complete, continue to improve because there's, you know, and I know firsthand, there are a lot of really, really, really difficult stories out there around that experience of not wanting to connect, but things are getting better. And in my experience with GMC and working with gay clients inside and outside of the organization.
18:56
And with straight clients too, I'm getting younger clients coming forward and saying, I need to talk this through. My life was a heroic shit show at 23 years old, but I don't think I would ever gonna see a therapist. Ever. And now at 45 years old, not only seeing a therapist for a number of years, but also being one. That's a huge turnaround.
19:21
And you know, I come from a culture, I you come from a culture where the idea of reaching out and speaking to another guy, seeking a mentor, seeking a friend, sitting in a group of lads and talking about how he felt would never have happened. Weakness, Pure weakness. And I knew that when something went wrong or I looked stupid, I had to bury that stuff deep and never ever talk about it. And we are getting better.
19:47
But I guess the only time I see it getting better is when people are brave enough to step out the shadows and say, I need to talk about this. Ultimately, this comes down to, I believe, the relationships that are modeled around us. We take our cues from our early years through our attachment years of our first eight to 10 years on Earth, where we see the exchange of information. We see how people express their views. We see what it's like to be a man.
20:15
We see what it's like to be a man under stress. We see what it's like to be a man with emotion or not as the case may be. We get our assignment really insidiously and really secretly. This is why we need to unpeek sometimes from a point that we can't understand because we don't know why it's our assignment to bottle it in, to keep quiet, not to talk. But we just know that we're compelled to do so. And invariably it's because of our environments and because, you know, we've grown up in a working class area where that's not what men do.
20:45
or we've grown up in a privileged area where we've been told that our life is going to be okay and we are going to be great and we're to be a type of industry and then stuff happens and suddenly we don't have the playbook for plan B. Either way we've been told we're going to be okay. And on top of that, for our gay clients, it's who can hold the vulnerability? Who's going to hold the vulnerability of my sexuality and honor me in a way that sometimes I can't do it for myself?
21:14
Where do I turn? Who is going to lift me up? Who's going to tell me this is okay? And that's really, really, really hard. And that's an individual decision. I guess that's why people get disappointed with the community. And I do that in, because they, come out, I know I had this and I appreciate that. I'm very privileged that I am what we might call classically handsome and more masculine presenting and a lot of things that are, I'm not a feminine or.
21:43
or don't present in that kind of way and I'm six foot four and you know even when I'm saying this because I am someone that might be considered desirable by uh a chunk of the community when I came out there was certainly an aspect of oh it's not all sunshines and happiness and rainbows and then and I think that's why people can't lot of people understandably then get embittered that
22:12
where do I turn with this? Because we can't go to our parents because we don't share our sexuality and that experience with our parents and then it can be difficult making friends and I think that's something that GMC has been really good at is creating that space where people can step into that and have that vulnerability because there's nowhere on the planet where people want to see you succeed more than in GMC so I think that's a great point uh actually.
22:38
And some of those guys when they're coming, didn't think they'd end up working with a straight therapist. That was always one of my contentions when we first proposed this idea of working together many moons ago, that actually how receptive, how safe, how forthcoming would a gay clientele be with a straight psychotherapist? And look, you're not always available for all the data out there about you, but up to now, it's been credible.
23:08
And we do also now have Tom who's in, who's a gay therapist. Yeah, we've got Tom now as well. yeah, we cover all bases. mean, on that, John, over so you've you've been working with JLC clients for what? We're coming up to six years now. Yeah. And I'm sure like the coaching team, you will see patterns that repeat. What would you say the kind of prominent ones that clients come to and you and you find yourself helping?
23:38
people work through? The number one thing I almost caught, I almost call it like anaerobic fatigue. You'll get clients coming in on a wave of joy, connection, excitement, new beginnings and potential. And then the work starts and then the uncovering starts around limiting beliefs and they can sprint for the first month.
24:08
Sometimes after a month or two, when the novel is worn off and when the workouts are coming and they're having to train on the night or they're to really, really think about their boundaries or think about the relationships, that's when a message might pop up and they might say, I really need to talk about this because it started out brilliantly and now it's going wrong. And actually it's not, you're where you're meant to be. This was never going to be easy. And I think for people who will ask the course, it's the understanding that the...
24:35
Those things are going to come around the corner and things are going to bite them in the bum. Um, particularly as they aspire. Cause aspiration flies right in the face of a lot of shame that we've kept hidden. And then that shame pops up and said, this is not what you do. Get back in your lane, stay where you are. You don't need to be proud. Yeah. Like tall poppy syndrome. Yeah. Tall poppy syndrome. Absolutely. And so a lot of clients will do, we'll do that in the first couple of months and really want that help and an interaction just to let them know that the way they're supposed to be. They're not staying there.
25:04
But for now, this is where they're at and there will be progress. And then further on, it's what we've termed sort of new body old problems where a client will have an amazing 12 months, revolutionize their approach to food, to exercise, really develop a uh brilliant, brilliant body. But then other things are coming up then. Well, I've dealt with that.
25:33
Um, what about that stuff with my family? What about my really, underlying sense of internalized homophobia? What about getting in a relationship where I've not been in a serious one for a number of years? And that almost feels like snakes and ladders, like they've got this huge ladder of progress and then they've slid back down again. So letting them know that that milestone is significant, but you're not going to slide back down. You've got another piece of work to do that you're, that your awareness and that your sense of
26:02
Your sense of self is now allowing you to access. It's unlocking the code for a new level. It's not sliding back down. Yeah, that's what we've, we've talked about this before. It's like when people come in, they've got blinkers on and they've got, I've got this immediate problem, whatever it might be. Often it's to do with their physical health and their physical wellbeing. And as we start to alleviate that problem, their blinkers kind of widen.
26:24
and problems that were there that would have been in their vision, but they were blinkered out, they go, were these new problems? And you go, no, they weren't new problems. You just didn't have the scope to deal with them before. And it kind of opens and opens and opens. So for those men that make long-term change compared to those ones that don't, what do they do differently?
26:45
I think to you is your phrase and I always get the time scale. I think what we can do in six weeks, we overestimate. What we can do in six months, we underestimate. the time scales might be wrong on that, but I think what we do is we come in all guns blazing, expect immediate response, respect immediate change. I get that a lot in therapy too. People who've waited until they're absolutely desperate and then they want me to fix them. To which I respond to, if I was that magic, I genuinely would have done it for myself.
27:13
I'd probably made me a grow back. It would have been the first thing. And so it's sitting in process when we are desperate for change and balancing and reconciling that. And then getting perspective and the successful clients that we have, both in GMC and also in therapy, the people who can get perspective on this, we'll take it away and think about it. Don't just use the session or the gym session as a place for growth. Talk about it. Once again, vulnerability and letting that stuff in. so.
27:42
that self-compassion is really important. Understanding that repetition is really, important. Steve Magnus, it was well worth a follow on Instagram for those guys who don't know. I'm happy to plug Steve Magnus. Absolutely brilliant sports psychology, trainer, athlete. And he talks about success being boring. Success is boring. And this is why it doesn't make it onto TV because success would be awful TV. It's iteration. It's standard. oh
28:12
We see this all the time, don't we? Where people come in and they do something, they go, this is working, let's change it. Yeah. Yeah. How can we this even more good? No, you don't have to. Yeah. It's progress over perfection as we say in GMC. know, repeat, repeat, repeat. The rewards, the rewards are down the line, but sitting with process and mastering process is, it's a little bit like Hansel and Gretel. If you don't leave the crumbs of process and understand why process and progress go hand in hand.
28:41
When things slip, you're never going to get back. You're not going to leave those crumbs there. And successful clients are able to return back to the beginning and build up again. If they've had some time off or over Christmas, they're able to reflect on what they need without too much shame. They're able to take advice. And that is not, that doesn't belong to a group of people. Those people don't exist. Not always organically. That's something that we show. This is something that we're not just give permission.
29:11
really, it's not about our permission, it's about empowering people to understand that these are things that are at every human's disposal inside GMC or outside GMC. Yeah, love that. I'll tell you what, to wrap this up, I'm gonna give you some quick fire ones, all right? nice and quick fire ones, things that people can take away, actionable things. So what is one day, if you had to give just one daily practice to weaken shame, what would it be?
29:42
You'll have to cut this great big pause out keegan on podcast.
29:50
Journal. Journal. Yeah. Any particular kind of journal. journal. The difference between the right feeling and almost the right feeling. And sometimes shame gets caught up in the maelstrom of how we're feeling. Writing down how you felt, writing down how you responded, writing down what you'll do in light of that. It gets you out of the head, out of the body, onto the page and enables some reflection. That answer I could give you, on a different day could give you an answer, but I think journaling.
30:20
is incredibly important for Part of Shame because it documents how you truly felt. some of you said uh a long time ago and it's always stuck with me and you know I'm a big fan of journaling is that it crystallizes your thoughts. I always thought that was a really lovely way to phrase what journaling does. So one sentence when people find themselves spiraling, feeling a bit overwhelmed, feeling like...
30:44
that perfectionism that all and nothing creeps in. What is one sentence that you think someone could use internally to kind of get them back on track? This will pass and this can be broken down into I'm safe. I'm just feeling comfortable right now. Yeah. It's a moment. It's not who I am. Yeah. Love that. And then. Yeah, go for it. What is
31:13
the smallest, if you were to lower the bar, the smallest act of vulnerability that can build some positive momentum for someone. Asking for help, investing in a person of good character.
31:33
in whom you can tell your story. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying this is where I'm at. What do I do? And look, vulnerability opens up doors, which opens up doors, which opens up doors. And you're not, it's not, you know, the first act ain't going to be the fix all, it's a daughter understanding that there's a golden thread of discovery that runs from when we tell our story in safe spaces. Yeah. Love that.
32:01
And last thing to wrap this up, just for people to take away, to reflect hopefully on this, what would be, give the listeners three signs or actions or things that are going on in their life that is showing that shame is driving the vehicle.
32:26
How many, in how many aspects of your life are you pleasing people?
32:51
driving choice that they're making.
32:56
Another really important way is action versus regret. How do we feel after certain actions? Are we making the right choices? It's a little bit like the walk of shame. Are we out situations feeling good about them as we did rocking it? Okay. Are we fulfilled?
33:22
And the last one is, do we know who we are? And if we do, are we prepared to stare that down? Are we honest with ourselves? Do we know who we are? And are we prepared to engage with that? If I cut that, that's shy answer. I don't like that one. Do you want to bin these out? It was difficult for me to drop you on the spot with that one. Let's do a third one.
33:50
Let's do authenticity.
33:54
Like, can you show up as your authentic self? Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, so the third one is...
34:04
Are we showing up as ourselves as often as possible? Yeah, in all situations. In all situations, you know, to the best of our ability. Do we believe in ourselves? And that's a really honest answer. I love that, mate. Thank you so much. I realize, you know, it's quite short and we've crammed a load of value in there, but this is the kind of stuff that we're doing inside GMC. m You know...
34:31
for you guys who are inside it, for the guys who are outside it. This is the work that we're doing, you know, day in and day out and chipping away at it. So John, thank you for being a great guest. Thank you for being a big part of GMC. Thank you guys for listening. Look after yourself, stay safe and don't eat and drink and behave at the expense of how you wanna look and feel. And I will catch up with you next week.