Sandals Church Podcast

Gender roles are controversial in culture and in the church. The Bible paints a powerful picture of women leadership and how men can respect and follow that leadership. More than recognizing a woman's ability to lead, the Bible shows that God does big things when men honor the voices of women and recognize God's calling in their life. What would happen in this cultural moment if in the church men were sensitive to the call of God on women's lives? The church can be a completely unique space in culture if we catch this vision.

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At Sandals Church, our vision is to be real with ourselves, God and others. This channel features sermons and teaching from Pastor Matt Brown and other members of the Sandals Church preaching team. You can find sermon notes, videos and more content at http://sandalschurch.com/watch

Mutta pilot Hey Sandal's Church, it is such a joy to be here with the guy today. I am Ashley Ramo's Pastor Frado's wife and I get the privilege of reading God's Word with you. So if you are willing and able will you please stand for the reading of God's Word? Debra, the wife of Lapidus, was a prophet who was judging Israel at that time. She would sit under the palm of Debra between Ramo and Bethel and the hill country of Ephraim and the Israelites would go to her for judgment. This is the Word of the Lord. Let's pray. Father, we thank you for your word and we ask that you would speak to us today and bless this time in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you so much, you guys. Go ahead and be seated. As we continue in this series called Sheer, we're looking to discover what the role of women in the church is. Our passage that was read for us today comes from a very dark and messy book, The Book of Judges. It's dark and tragic because there's this repeated phrase throughout it that Israel did evil in the sight of God. In fact, that's how the book ends. It ends on a pretty bad note. It's messy because it's filled constantly with murder and violence and deceit and all kinds of things that destroy our lives. Yet as we read this verse from Judges 4-1, that the Israelites again did evil in the sight of the Lord, there's something about it that I find. The first there is again. The word again signifies that there's this repetition in Judges, some call it a cycle to vicious cycle in which people, God's people, have entered into a land in a life that God had promised them and yet they can't keep him at the center of it until he turned to their own devices. Then they get oppressed and they cry for help. But what I noticed and just kind of realized this week was that where it says again Israel did evil in the sight of God, I'm reminded that God never ceases to have his eyes on us. That it evil in a sight. In other words, his gaze was fixed on them. Regardless of the evil, the mess of our lives, I need to be reminded that God's loving gaze never leaves me. Never leaves me. And we need to be reminded of this. That I'm going to have messy the book might be or your life might be. The Lord's eyes, his loving posture is always towards you. Wherever you find yourself at. And more than that, he doesn't have a problem getting his hands dirty in the mud of our lives. And we can do this in the book of Judges by sending what he calls Judges. People to oversee Israel. People to act accordingly to bring the land to a place that is right and full of justice again. Judges is a book about delivers. Now unfortunately these delivers typically go wrong. Most of the time they fall apart. And many have kind of regarded Judges as a book where a lot of men got it wrong, but one woman named Deborah got it right. A very scholars kind of see her as this bright spot in a very dark book. And so we're going to use the story of Deborah to really help us understand why we need women to lead. Why is it that we need women to lead? The story of Deborah is going to help us understand why. And give us I think some answers to that question. So we're going to read together this full story. I'm going to make some observations along the way and then draw out a few thoughts that I think help us understand why it's so important for us in the church today. That women lead us. And so buckle in. We got the whole story of Deborah. Story time with Frado. And get ready. Get ready. We'll pick up in Judges 4 verse 6 where it says one day she sent for Barack son of Abidinoham. Now what's interesting and what I want you to know already is that she sends for him. A woman sends for the strongest warrior in Israel. And guess what? He responds. He answers, respects and observes her authority. We're told that he lived in Kadesh in the land of Naftele and she's said to him, listen now, this is what the Lord God of Israel commands you. She's a prophet. She says call out 10,000 warriors from the tribes of Naftele and Zebulin at Mount Tebar. And I will call out Sysra. Now Pots, who's Sysra? We're told in the beginning of Judges 4, Sysra is a warlord. And he's being used by King Javan who oversees Canaan to oppress Israel. Sysra has 900 iron chariots at his disposal and for 20 years he's been wreaking havoc on these people, raping them, plundering, pillaging them. He's a bad man. And God through Deborah says, I will call him out along with his chariots and warriors to the Kishan River. No, note that, Kishan River will come back to that. There he says, I will give you victory over him. Listen to how Brock responds. Brock told her, I will go, but only if you go with me. The strongest leader in Israel, man, needs a woman's presence. Notice her response, very well, she replied, I will go with you. Notice her prophecy continues, but you will receive no honor in this venture. For the Lord's victory, Oversysra will be at the hands of a woman. So Deborah went with Barak to Kadesh and at Kadesh Barak called together the tribes of Zebulin and Naftali and 10,000 warriors went up with him. Deborah also went with him. Notice the both and relationship of their leadership. He goes where he needs to go. He calls out 10,000 warriors, but where is she? She's right there with him. This is a both and picture of a woman who is still leading. And then we get verse 11. Now he breathed a canite, a descendant of Moses's brother on La Hobab. That's a terrible name, Hobab. Had moved away from the other members of his tribe and pitched his tent by the oak of Zananim near Kadesh. Now this verse feels like that moment when you're on the couch watching a movie and you got a positive, because you have no idea what this random scene means. So you asked your partner, whoever you're with, that's what this verse is, but hold on to it, because this story very much plays like a Quentin Tarotino movie in which there's violence and a plot twist at the end. So we'll pick this up in just a moment. But we're told that verse 12, when Cicero was told that Barack, Israel's warriors, son of Abinanim, had gone up to Mount Tabar. He called for all 900 of his iron chariots and all of his warriors and they marched from Herush, Haggohim to the Kishan River. Then Deborah said to Barack, get ready. This is the day the Lord will give you victory. Just now twice this woman leader has spoken prophetically to Barack. There is something to be said for the well-timed word of a woman in our lives, man. It can do something to us. Says, you're going to get victory over Cicero for the Lord is marching ahead of you. Barack needed Deborah and Deborah's reminding him, it's not just me, that's with you. The Lord is with you too. So Barack led his 10,000 warriors down the slopes of Mount Tabar into battle when Barack attacked the Lord through Cicero and all of his chariots into a panic. Cicero leaped down from his chariot and escaped on foot. Then Barack chased the chariots and the enemy army all the way to Harush, Haggohim. I don't have to say that again, thank God. Killing all of Cicero's warriors and not a single one was left. In other words, when this battle ensued, the chariots were going along the Kishan River. Now what we're told later in Judges 5, which is a poetic song, Deborah saying, after this historic account, is that God sent a flood, a rain along that river so that those advanced tech for warfare, the chariots were rendered useless. They got stuck in mud. Imagine it. Power stuck in mud. Stuck in mud. And so it sends them into a panic. Then we're told that Barack chases all of the army, eliminates all of them all the way back to the homeland. Meanwhile it says, Cicero ran to the tent of Jail, the wife of Hebrew the canine because Habers family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazar. So Jail went out to meet Cicero and said to him, now we're going to pause just a second. This is where that weird verse of verse 11 comes into play. You have this family, Habar, his wife, Jail, they're outsiders to Israel. So they kind of belong to Israel but they kind of don't. And they're on friendly terms with the oppressor. And so Cicero, who's been running, goes and sees her and says, come into my tent, sir, come in, don't be afraid. Now someone says, don't be afraid, I'm automatically afraid. This does not sound right. It feels like a horror flick. And here's what we got to recognize. In this moment, her family, because they're on friendly terms with the oppressor, could have been well rewarded for their care. In this moment of battle, they're looking out for the warlord, Cicero. But notice what says happened. He went into her tent and she covered him with a blanket, which is common in ancient Erie's practice. This is a form of hospitality. He says, give me some water. He said, I'm thirsty. So she gave him some milk from a leather bag and covered him again. Stand at the door of the tent, he told her, if anyone comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no. Now what's interesting that I think the author is doing here in Judges 4 is picturing for us in this narrative, two of the strongest men of Israel, Barack and Cicero. And both of them at different moments need and are vulnerable in the presence of a woman. And the presence of a woman. And then it said there, when Cicero fell asleep from exhaustion, I don't know why he's tired, the man dipped out of the battle. He'd even stick around. But we'll keep it moving. It said, Gile quietly crept up to him with a hammer and a tent peg in her hand. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground. And then the verse we probably didn't need and so he died. Just straight through it. Now what's profound to me as I'm thinking about this passage is that day Cicero got up and dressed himself full of armor that would have protected him from fists, feet, swords, shields, his own iron chariots and horses, but he was not ready for a household item like a tent peg. There is something to be said about the way we entrust ourselves to modern forms of power. And we neglect the small things in life that can completely destroy us. Especially when it comes to leadership roles. How would you gender? A tent peg took out this man. Now her actions, some commentators noted, are not only defiant and violent, but they actually are socially revolutionary. In other words, her actions redefine the prevailing views of female roles in this day. And I'm not here to justify or defend her violent actions. And certainly this story of G.L., which maybe some of you know about, isn't the first story we read to our children out of the Bible. But it's there, not as a way I think to condone this kind of violence, but to give an accurate story of what happens to people who give themselves over to violence. I think of the words of Jesus the night he was betrayed and arrested, those who draw up the sword will die by the sword. And so for any one of us who use violence as a form to accrue power, your life will probably end losing that power at the hand of somebody else's violence. That goes for those of us who lie, cheat, and still to protect forms of power that God has not called you to own and to have. Now the story isn't in there. We're told when Barat came looking for Cicera, G.L. went out to meet him. He said, come and I will show you the man you were looking for. Now I don't know about you, but if I see Lady Thor with the hammer and blood all over her and she's like, yo come check this out, I ain't going in. That's not me. Could not be me. Be like after you, ma'am. But he goes in, he followed her into the tent and found Cicera lying there dead with a tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God. He was innocent. Israel saw not Deborah, not Barat, saw God. Defeat Jaban. The Canaanite King. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against the King, Jaban, until they finally destroyed him. Because in that moment, Jaban's best warlord Cicera is now defeated. His modern tech gone, stuck in mud. Stuck in mud. And now they grow stronger and stronger. We're told, not so much in judges, but in Deuteronomy and Exodus, that the people of Israel are going into the land filled with milk and honey. This land that God had promised you, milk and honey. It's interesting to me that Deborah's name means honey bee. And so on the day we see in this story the land flowing with milk and honey was saved by a bee and a mountain goat. Why a mountain goat? Because Jail, when she disarms Cicera, offers him milk from her leather bag. The land flowing with milk and honey was saved and delivered by a bee and a mountain goat. What a picture for us to think about why we need women to lead. A few thoughts for us as we move forward first. As women lead, we need to understand that God speaks to us. And as you lead, God is speaking to all of us. We think of the story of Deborah and we're told that while Israel is crying out for deliverance, she's already a judge. She's already been chosen by God. She sits under a tree, the palm of Deborah, which the author is probably paying homage to the fact that she was there so often they named the tree after her. And she's there judging the people. What does that mean? Because basically in a position of authority interpreting the law of God, settling daily disputes. So you and I, if we were living at this time, she was our judge. We would take to her all of our family drama or issues with our neighbors and she would settle them. She was a judge duty before judge duty. She was incredibly wise, courageous. She knew the law of God. You can't be a judge and not know the law. How you get a settled daily disputes? She did this. She's the first and only female judge. Other than that, she's the first and only female judge to be a prophet as well. She speaks on behalf of Yahweh. Judges 4 verse 6. We just read this. One day she sent for Brock who lived in Kadesh in the land of Nathalie. She said to him, this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, commands of you. She speaks not her preferred outcome in life, ladies, but she speaks God's Word. As a leader, she is speaking on his behalf. You see this again in Deborah, I'm sorry, in Judges 14, verse 14, then Deborah said to Barak, get ready. This is the day the Lord will give you victory for the Lord is marching ahead of you. You see, I think there are Deborah's in this church that need to embrace their prophetic role. So in whatever area God is calling you to lead us as a church, you need to embrace the role that you are speaking on God's behalf and we need to hear from you. We need to hear from you. As you pray, as you draw close to God, as you allow His Word to shape and form your life, we need to hear your prophetic voice. There's no way Israel is delivered apart from the prophetic words and leadership of Deborah. Now mind you, when this is happening, it's happening in a patriarchal society. The story of Deborah is not accidentally added to Judges. And so it would have been very common for both Siserra and Jaban to look at Israel and be like, they're led by a woman? Yes, a woman, which again reminds us of the unorthodox ways that God delivers people. After all, it was Jail, the outsider, the half Israelite, half pagan whose friends were the oppressor who in this plotchwist kills the oppressor, fulfilling, oh, by the way, Deborah's promise that your honor will not go to you, Barack. It's going to go to a woman. And that's exactly what happened through this moment. But you see, I think it's easy for us, especially men, let me speak to us for just a moment. To view our lives as just, we're not going to take women's advice. In fact, I got a verse from Paul in the New Testament as to why Deborah is breaking God's commands. And so we use these rare passages. We pull them out of context. We make them say what we want them to say. And many of us don't listen to women because of it. Because we have this twisted idea of Scripture to help protect our own egos and our twisted forms of masculinity that we think protect us. And so maybe perhaps you are the leader of your homes. But have you considered leading your home in the way that you listen to your spouse? You can lead through listening. You can listen to the mothers in your life. You can listen to the sisters in your life. I mean, we can listen to the sisters of Christ in your life. Like we strangely find ourselves in such an overly sexualized culture that over time, it's hard for us to embrace the healthy dynamic that God gave to us and his family between men and women in which it's actually possible for you as a guy to be discipled by a woman in some ways of your life. And it's not anything else of it. But I see young guys that are like, man, is she coming on to me? No, bro, she sees her foolishness. She's just giving you insight. That's it. There's nothing else in the relationship. She is a sister in Christ. She sees what you're doing and she's offering you wisdom and insight. That's what this relationship is. And we need to recover that kind of identity in the family of God. Because man, we have simply not grown up if you don't know how to listen to the voice of a godly woman in your life. Hey, if this message has been an impact to you, I would love for you to give. And you can do so by going to donate.se. For now, let's get back into the message. You're not grown. I'm not grown. If you don't know how to listen to women. By the grace of God, I'm trying to learn this in various ways. And one of them actually is through preaching and teaching. From time to time, maybe I know this, but actually speaks into these messages. So you hear it for the first time. She started like 10 times, right? And I always love when people come up to me and maybe like they appreciate something I said or they like the message. And I'll kind of smile on the inside because what they appreciate is actually what Ashley said. We just got a copyright issue at home, right? So I end up saying it. And yeah, I went to seminary. Yeah, I know some things, but I need her leadership. I need her leadership. Because why God speaks to me through her leadership. And it's a shame. I'm not going to mention the seminary by name, but it hurts me to think that my education was so dominated by male scholarship. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But just this week I was reminded. I was reading Old Testament scholar by the name of Mary Evans. And what she had to say on judges was just so rich from my soul. I'm like, dang, she's good. And man, what an opportunity we have to embrace women, their wisdom, their insight, God's calling on their life in a way that makes us hear the voice of God more clearly. Because God is speaking through them, are we listening, though, fellas? Are we listening? God, I think, has brought the global church, and especially the American church to this particular moment because we have missed out on a beautiful aspect of his voice because we've had some twisted form of leadership in the church. And what an opportunity we have to be like Barak. He says, I need you to go with me. I need to hear what you have to say on this matter. Can we listen? Can we listen? The second thing I observe from the story is this, as women lead, God empowers men. Empowers men. Verse 8, you'll notice there that Barak told her, I will go, but only if you go with me. Now some interpreters are kind of split like is she showing signs of delayed obedience in this moment? Does he not trust God's prophetic voice coming through Deborah? Like, why is he saying you got to go with me? We can at least say this, that he needs her presence. But yet her leadership and presence does not take away from what he needs to do in his role. He's still the warrior. He still has to go get 10,000 men from two tribes that live near the oppressor. He still has a role to play. And so whether he was wavering, not trusting, it's clear that he needs her leadership to be what he is called to be as well. And this is why her leadership is so important to us because she's not behind the scenes, y'all. She's not at home. She's not organizing stuff. She's front and center. And I say that because oftentimes in the church when we talk about women leadership, we say, oh yeah, you can just kind of get out of the main way. That's not the case with Deborah. She is in the main way. And though she doesn't have the strength of this warrior, she's directing the warrior of 10,000 individuals. There's something to be said for this. But more than that, I love how Deborah actually never loses her role either. She never thought I had to be the warrior. And I love that baroque strength. Doesn't overshadow Deborah's voice in wisdom. And her gifting as a leader is not a threat to his strength. And so if another woman's gifting is viewed as a threat to your strength, maybe you're not as strong as you think you are. Maybe you're not as strong as you think you are. And I say that not to embarrass any of our men, not to make you feel guilty or full of shame, but to just name it what it is. That is an insecurity that you need to be allowed to be exposed to the love of God. And to imagine for a situation where a woman's leadership, strength, courage, and wisdom is actually the way we experience God's love for us and empowerment to do and be the very person he's called us to be. Imagine that. Imagine that. Sandal Church, what a gift we could be if our strength was not threatened by the gifting of women. Not threatened. Baroque makes good decisions on the basis and timing of Deborah's leadership. He's empowered. She's leading him. What a picture for us. The last thing, then we'll get to some application as women lead God delivers people. There's no way to read the story. And the other way, then to see that because Deborah led God delivered people. Now some will try to read this passage as, well, Deborah was a judge because there was no men around. That is a poor reading the scripture. No where in this text is that implied. So at best that's a poor reading, at worst that's a reading the scripture that just propagates a very unhealthy view of men and women in the church. Deborah's called. Deborah's chosen. They're delivered because of her leadership. Verse 23 said it. So on that day Israel saw God defeat Jabe and the Canaanite King. They grew stronger as a result. They encounter his saving power through her obedience and calling in purpose. In the midst of a book mind you that was culturally dominated by men, we see this woman chosen by God and used by God to deliver people who are oppressed. Ladies, as you lead, it creates opportunities for God to set people free. To set people free who are in bondage to lies and bondage to destructive habits. Ladies, as you lead, in the way that God has called you to do so, imagine he is setting people free too. And maybe culture, our neighbors and friends struggle to embrace a different picture of men and women. There's an opportunity for us to embrace the way that God chooses people. Oftentimes as culture is zicking, the Spirit of God is zagging, going in a different direction. And we stand at a turning point where we can begin to humble ourselves and embrace God's choice for leaders to defer to God's choice. If I were to ask you in the question I would say, how can we lead in deference to God's choice regardless of gender? That's where we all need to rest it with right now. Whether you are a woman or a man, how is it possible that we can defer to God's choice regardless of gender? My thought is this, we need to take our cues from Jesus himself. Jesus gives to us this profound picture. In fact, Deborah in so many ways models to us the leadership of Jesus. Why? Because she has meekness. The answer to the question is that we lead whether we are a man or a woman, we need to learn to lead with the meekness of Christ. There's this incredible conversation in Mark chapter 10 that Jesus is having with his disciples. Now mind you, this is after three years of life with Jesus. This is Jesus on his way to Jerusalem to be betrayed, falsely cues, put on trial and then crucified and his closest friends are still debating leadership. Who's in charge? Where can I sit, Jesus? They've been with him three years, they can't figure it out yet. Does it sound like the modern church still? Still can't figure this out. Mark chapter 10, notice the conversation. So Jesus called them together and said, you know that the rulers in this world lorded over their people and officials flaunt their authority over those under them, but among you it will be different. Amongstantles church it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant. Servant. What is a servant? You see a servant often leads with their power under control. That's what meat is. Meat is learning to use your power under control. That's what a servant does. They use it in a way for the good of somebody else. This is a lot like a gentle breeze that comes by. A gentle breeze that comes in on a hot day and refreshes you when you think about it, that's power under control. The thrust and strength that is invisible of the wind coming through does not blow over, force you over, mess up my curly hair, right? A gentle breeze comes through and refreshes you. A breeze is power under control. To be a servant is to be someone who uses their power under control. For the good of somebody else. Much like when Jesus says, blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. You want to be in charge? You want a rule? You can have the whole earth, Jesus says, as long as you're meek. As long as we're meek. As long as we embody this kind of posture where we embrace our roles, our leadership as men and women with meekness. Do you see, like, do we have the strength? This is what I've been pet, like just wrestling with even this morning praying, God, do I have the strength to be a meek person? To not always force my way? To not always try to control the situation? I mean, that's the, if there's any sin that like, or anything that gets me into sin more often than not, it's trying to control. Like when my kids, I'm trying to control every situation. My stress, when I snap, when I do this or that, it's constantly me trying to control. I have an unhealthy view of my power and how I think things should go. So I've been praying through God. Do I have enough strength in my life to be a meek person who can allow power to be used and express under control? And I just think in this current cultural moment where in the marketplace, in society, in culture, we're constantly trying to navigate through the abuse of power, unhealthy forms of patriarchy, gender rules, and what an opportunity we have as the church, the bride of Jesus, to not just try to prove God's love, but to picture it, to embody it, to live it out as we embrace all our forms of leadership with meekness, with meekness. So our question is, do we have the strength to be meek? Do you as a leader have what it takes to be a meek person to like Deborah and brace your role of power, leadership, with meekness? We're going to end our time with prayer, with prayer, I should say, praying this into our lives. And so I'm actually going to ask that if you're a woman in here, that you would stand, so that we can pray over our men. In the same way that Deborah led and delivered Israel, we need the debras of our church to help deliver men. Through those husbands who need to be delivered from habits, lies, and the women could do that. I've been in your community, there's some women in your life who can, through their leadership, help deliver you. And so last week we had the men stand to pray, this week we had the women stand to pray, and so men if you would just extend your hands out, and women we're going to send our hands out over our men, and we're going to pray. We pray that God would empower rocks as he commissions debras, and all in that we would receive the meekness of Jesus. Let's pray together. Heavenly Father, we come to You, God, and realize that we need meekness. God, we need debras in our life who can deliver us, who can empower us, who can speak Your word to us. And so Jesus, we look to You as the one who was the meekest, the one with all the power yet You did not come to be served, but to serve and to give Your life as a ransom for many. And so God, we embrace the good news now, and we ask that You would empower the debras of our church to model the leadership and the life of Jesus that You have called them to. And for the men of our church to receive with joy and life and freedom and deliverance, what it's like to be led by women who are called by You. We parallel this in Jesus' name. Amen.