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In 1963, the US Supreme Court ruled that all criminal defendants were guaranteed a right to counsel under the 6th and 14th Amendments. Jonathan Rapping, a former public defender and professor at John Marshall Law School, co-founded Gideon’s Promise to address the inadequacies of our public defender system by empowering motivated, passionate public defenders to work across the United States and bridge the gap between the ideal of the 6th Amendment’s right to counsel and the inadequacies of our criminal defense system. Prof. Rapping explains why a quality public defender system is so important for marginalized communities and our country as a whole, what it takes to be a great public defender, and how public defenders are addressing changes in our legal landscape.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (00:51) - Introducing Prof. Jonathan Rapping
- (03:19) - What it takes to be a public defender
- (04:29) - How law students can maintain their empathy and humanity
- (06:43) - Prof. Rapping’s personal journey
- (08:25) - The conflict of training lawyers in public defender offices
- (10:16) - The mission of Gideon’s Promise
- (12:19) - How Gideon’s Promise trains public defenders and why it matters
- (13:47) - The real challenges public defenders face
- (17:27) - YSL, OJ Simpson, and the public perception of criminal defense lawyers
- (22:42) - Why underfunding public defense fails the American ideal
- (24:37) - How public defenders are facing legal and social changes
- (28:55) - Host takeaways and discussion
Creators & Guests
What is ABA Law Student Podcast?
Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to have the assistance of counsel for his defence." That's from the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution and it makes sense. Our criminal justice system is complex and the government in pursuing a criminal conviction has many resources and deep legal expertise. Yet even today though we have public defenders, it's hard to say we've universally met this ideal, but we still could. Today we discuss the role of the public defender and the invaluable, though often undervalued role they play in our legal system. This is the A BA law student podcast. Hi Shay. Hi Manny. How are you doing?
(00:53):
Hey Todd. Doing good.
Chay Rodriguez (00:54):
Everything's good. Finals are coming up, holidays are coming up. Things are coming up. So more and more we're winding down, getting closer and closer to May and graduation, which I'm going to mention that every episode because I'm super excited.
Todd Berger (01:07):
Speaking of things that are coming up, you have an interview with a really amazing guest, someone who is a legend within the public defender community. So who are we going to talk to today? Shea,
Chay Rodriguez (01:21):
We are going to talk to co-founder of Gideon's Promise, professor Jonathan Rapping, and I'm really excited for you all to hear more about Gideon's Promise. He's going to break down so much for us and really talk about his passion for the work of public defense and also what Gideon's Promise does in terms of their training with public defenders across the country.
Todd Berger (01:48):
And what made you want to talk to professor rapping Shay?
Chay Rodriguez (01:51):
Actually, professor rapping, it was a big part of my orientation into law school, so I thought that it would be a full circle moment for me to talk to him as I'm exiting law school and talk to him honestly as someone who now has more knowledge about what he was talking about. Because during an orientation, you don't ever know what someone is really talking about and your brain is scattered and you're just honestly still surprised that they let you in the building. So now that they're letting me leave the building, I wanted to speak with professor rapping and learn more about his expertise, more about some of the work that he's done outside of that straight up and down being in a courtroom and how he's worked to impact the legal field because I feel like sometimes my generation can be a little ignorant to the fact that you do have to put in the work to make that broader impact. You can't be a mogul at day one. You have to be able to lay the foundation brick by brick. And Professor Jonathan Rapping's story and his career has shown how you can do that, how he continues to do that, and how he's still making his mark on the industry.
Todd Berger (03:04):
Terrific. So a lot there for our listeners, whether they're just entered practice or they're thinking about what field they're going to go into to really unpack as we get into this interview. So let's get started.
Chay Rodriguez (03:19):
Professor, what qualities in a person tend to lend them to pursuing a career as a public defender?
Jonathan Rapping (03:26):
Well, the first thing I'd say is the public defenders I know are really the best lawyers. I know the first thing is a real seriousness about being excellent in the craft because you have to have the tools to fight this battle. But being a great lawyer, knowing the law, having a set of skills isn't enough. I think really to be a public defender, you have to possess empathy, compassion, the ability to care about people that no one else cares about. The ability to see people for who they are beyond the worst moment in their life, understanding that while you're in spaces where people are labeled as thieves and robbers and abusers, you see them as mothers and fathers, sons, daughters, shopkeepers, caregivers, community members. Remembering the humanity of people is a critical thing to do. As a public defender,
Chay Rodriguez (04:29):
How do you think that can be refined as you grow up and life tends to harden you? What can a person do to stay tapped into that humanity and that empathy?
Jonathan Rapping (04:41):
Usually when I meet law students for the first time in orientation, I will ask the group, why are you here? What brought you to law? School? And law students usually have very idealistic answers. I want to address this particular cause or I want to work with this particular community of people who are vulnerable. And then I share with them a quote from an unnamed law student that says, the first thing I lost in law school is the reason why I came. I tell them, you're about to enter a first year where you are going to learn the law through the casebook method. We will reduce the law to black letters on a white page to rules and doctrine. And before you know it, you may forget that there are human beings behind these cases. And I challenge the first year students, I say, of any of you, I challenge any of you to come to me after your first year and share with me the story of one person you met through the dozens and dozens of cases that you will study this year.
(05:39):
And I've never had a student who's able to do it because really the way we teach law students is we teach them to think like lawyers. It's a rational analytic process. And while that's critically important, there is a danger that we are unintentionally stripping the humanity from them. So what I say to law students is as important as learning the law, as important as learning the ability to analyze, you've got to figure out your purpose and find a way to nurture it and hold onto it throughout your time in law school. And that comes from working with people who can be role models and mentors, finding ways to get experience in spaces where the people you want to serve are impacted so you can come to see them as people and not just case studies. It's being present, it's being involved, it's stepping outside of the law school experience, the professional lawyering experience and not forgetting the human being that you brought with you into that educational environment.
Chay Rodriguez (06:43):
What happened to you and your law school experience that made you want to go into public defense?
Jonathan Rapping (06:50):
So I came out of college again, I wanted to be a defense lawyer. I came out of college and everyone I talked to told me that if I went to law school, I was going to incur credible debt and I wouldn't be able to do the work I love. I'd get tracked into some career that was driven by my need to make money to pay off my debt. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Why would I put those shackles on myself? And I worked for a couple years, I got a master's degree, and I realized in those four years that I hadn't found anything that would fulfill me, that nothing excited me, like that dream of being a defense lawyer. So the bullet, I came to law school, I incurred a lot of debt like most law students. And in my first summer, the summer between my first and second year, I interned at the Washington DC Public Defender Service, which I didn't know at the time, but as a model public defender office.
(07:42):
And I met these amazing young, mostly young lawyers who were so passionate, so spirited, they loved their clients, they loved the work. They were a group of colleagues who saw themselves as collectively fighting to make sure that civil rights were preserved and racial and economic justice was realized. They were superheroes to me. And I thought to myself, that's what I want to do. And I spent my entire second year of law school, my second summer, my third year of law school, continuing to intern at that public defender office. I made myself a feature there. They couldn't not hire me. And that's what led me into public defense.
Chay Rodriguez (08:25):
Do you think it is almost a disservice to yourself if you come out of law school and don't try to get training from either a public defender's office or the district attorney's office because you all put a new lawyer through the training that they really need to be competent to practice? I've heard that so many times that these two offices in any state will really give you the best training so that you feel confident to really go out and help your clients. So I just want to get your take on that being a trainer as well.
Jonathan Rapping (08:57):
Yeah. So Shay, I'm always conflicted when I answer this question because I absolutely think you cannot be an excellent lawyer if you aren't in a space initially where you learn how to practice law. And there are very few places where you can really serve people, be in courtrooms if you want to be a trial lawyer and practice law, public defense is absolutely one of those spaces. The reason I say I'm conflicted about that question is because I also think it is really important that we not have people who have historically not had access to justice, have their life and liberty dependent on recent law school graduates who see them as someone to train on. I think it is not a place to go if your view is I'm not committed to serving people. I want trial experience. Folks who are vulnerable are not instruments to be practiced on. I would urge people to only do this work if that's your commitment, that's your passion, that's your mission. But if it is, I am with you, you cannot become the best lawyer you can be without that experience.
Chay Rodriguez (10:16):
Let's talk about Gideon's promise then your brainchild and what you've built and how you've built it. I know that when we first virtually met, you talked about Gideon's Promise briefly. I still didn't fully understand what it was. And at the time you were talking about your new book, I remember getting off of the call and I talked to my mentor, her name was Rose Love. I said to Rose, who's Gideon? And what did he promise I hadn't been? I was like, I'm trying to Google it. I don't understand who is this Gideon. And so then Rose and I had a conversation, but can you talk to our listeners about Gideon's promise, your brainchild?
Jonathan Rapping (10:57):
Yeah. So let me first answer the question, who's Gideon and what did he promise? So in 1963, the Supreme Court decided the case of Gideon versus Wa Wright. Clarence. Earl Gideon was just a man who was accused of breaking into a pool hall, stealing some beverages and some change. And he was in Florida at the time. There was no right to a lawyer for that kind of offense. He went to trial, represented himself was convicted and sentenced to prison. And he wrote a letter to the Supreme Court saying, this isn't fair. And the Supreme Court agreed, they treated that as a writ of cert, which is what initiates a case in the Supreme Court and ultimately with one of the best lawyers in the land. Gideon won his case and the Supreme Court announced in Gideon versus Wayne Wright that anyone accused of a crime a felony later extended to misdemeanors and juveniles, anyone accused of a crime has a right to have a lawyer. So Gideon is the person who the case is named after. The promise is that everyone will have a lawyer, but not just a lawyer, the kind of lawyer that we would pay for if we had money. And so Gideon's Promise is an organization that works with public defender organizations to create an army of lawyers that the Gideon case promised, but it's a promise that have never been fulfilled.
Chay Rodriguez (12:19):
Gideon's promise you all provide training that covers how to challenge forensics of drug cases and defendant confessions, how to use technology to build a defense strategy, how not to be undone by the stresses of the job. Are those things that are not currently taught in public defender's offices?
Jonathan Rapping (12:36):
So that really depends on the office. There are a number of offices that enjoy, well-deserved reputations for providing excellent training and support and mentorship disproportionately. Those offices are in the northeast or on the West Coast. And those offices are able to do that because they tend to have more resources. And so with resources, you have the ability to attract people that want to really do the work to provide them training and supervision. But in far too many offices, even the most basic lessons are not being taught, not because of some shortcoming of the people running those offices, but they don't have the resources. They're overwhelmed with cases. They have people who don't have lawyers and they need to just get lawyers aside to them. And so new lawyers might walk in and be given a stack of cases and told, go do your job. And we pretend that somehow in law school you learned how to do that. Fact is in law school, very rarely do we teach people how to be good practicing lawyers.
Chay Rodriguez (13:47):
One thing that I would be, I think judged if I don't bring this up, is the lack of resources. When we talk about what happens in a public defender's office, the lack of resources also translates to a lot of attorneys, a lot of students, and the general lay person is the lack of money as well, that there is a hurdle of adequate compensation when you act as a public defender. And something that I think really highlighted that for me again this year was during the YSL case when a contractor with the Public Defender's office filed a motion to withdraw from the case due to a loss of livelihood stemming from her role in the case, she had already lost her office and the money that they were offering her to sit on a case for so long, it just wasn't going to be enough. How hard is it to overcome that hurdle of compensation when you are training these different public defenders that come to your office? Is that a conversation that you all and how is it impacting these attorneys?
Jonathan Rapping (14:54):
Yeah, we definitely have it. It's definitely impacting lawyers. I think the anecdote you brought up about the court appointed counsel who had to shut down her practice, I think our failure to adequately compensate lawyers is really just a reflection of how little we care about the people they serve. We don't really take seriously the promise to give them the kinds of lawyers that you and I would pay for if we had the resources. To me, that story is exactly the problem that Gideon has a promise, but we don't care about the people who have been targeted and funneled into the system. So I do think for a law student coming out of law school, and I really appreciate this is a very real challenge, law students, most of you have incredible debt. Many law students, I mean, what I love about John Marshall are our students.
(15:52):
John Marshall, as you know, it's a unique population of students, disproportionately first generation college graduates, let alone law students. Disproportionately we have students who come from communities that have been impacted by injustice because of race, because of economics. And so I think it can be hard for a student to do the work they want to do when money isn't there. What I would say is this, though, don't undervalue what it means to wake up every day living your purpose. Don't undervalue what it means to be able to model the lessons you teach your children. If you're a parent now, you got to be able to put food on the table, you have to be able to eat. But I think in this day and age, sometimes young lawyers think, well now if I'm going to be a lawyer, I don't just want to eat. I need filet ign on every day and I don't just want a car, I need a Tesla or whatever it is. And I think that if you're committed to this work, you can find a place where you can make a living that will allow you to be comfortable and you can do the work that is important to you. Don't not do the work without adequately thinking about what you give up when you give up living your purpose. We'll be right back.
Chay Rodriguez (17:27):
I got to ask you a pop culturey question that I feel like you would know. So this YSL case has kind of propelled Brian Steele to be a bit of a household name in a lot of urban communities and especially urban communities that have access to TikTok and things like that. Is this similar, I've been thinking about this the past week. Is this similar, do you think to how a lot of households may have felt about Johnny Cochrane back like in the OJ days?
Jonathan Rapping (17:56):
Well, that's a great question. So I've got to say this. I mean, I think that for people who know Brian Steele, we appreciate what he brings to this profession and the level of excellence that he models. I'm glad that now people are seeing that, whether it's Johnny Cochrane level, that's an interesting question. Johnny Cochrane is such a hero, but also OJ Simpson was such a unique case. I mean, not that this trial wasn't unique, but OJ Simpson, there's not a person of my generation who can't tell you where they were when that verdict was handed down. And the other thing about the OJ case, is it really exposed for the nation, the racial divide when it comes to attitudes about the criminal legal system? Disproportionately, not exclusively, but disproportionately white America felt like OJ got away with murder. And I think disproportionately, whether black Americans thought OJ did it or not, they understood that Johnny Cochran was wrenching justice out of a system that never worked for them. That case was a game changer. I will say though, that I think Brian Steele models everything that Johnny Cochrane talked about in being a great lawyer. And I think Brian Steele is certainly a lawyer in the vein of what Johnny Cochran imagined great lawyers would be.
Chay Rodriguez (19:30):
I think when you mentioned that racial component of the OJ case, do you think that this current case, this why I saw Case had a similar ring to it when the focus was on using rap lyrics?
Jonathan Rapping (19:44):
I definitely do. I definitely do because I think obviously rap lyrics are a form of expression disproportionately used by a certain population of people, young, black, mostly men, but young black people. And it's the same population that is often because of our implicit biases seen as dangerous as criminal. And I think that the decision to prosecute this case, but also to use rico, which is such a broad theory of criminal liability, it captures people for the smallest involvement and punishes them significantly. I think this is really an example of how prosecutors can participate in demonizing populations of people and using the weapons in their arsenal to go after them with force that is disproportionate to the harm that comes to society. When we look at the outcome of the case, you have to ask yourself, is it worth using all those resources for a probationary term?
(20:57):
We can look at the same RICO theory that was used against teachers in the Atlanta Public School case where there were teachers who had never been in trouble before, who were accused of cheating, which happens all over the country. Cheating isn't even a crime, right? The crimes were more related to how making false statements or allegations that these teachers weren't forthcoming during the investigation. And then that got looped into a RICO trial at the time, the longest trial in Georgia history. I think we have to ask if prosecutors are using their weapons in ways that are disproportionate to the harm and taxpayers are paying top dollar to fund that.
Chay Rodriguez (21:39):
I think what's ironic about this is how RICO has come back to haunt so many, and the through line, it came back to haunt Giuliani and through Mme. Willis, who was not the DA at the time, but used that for the Atlanta Public School case and then now how Rico, some may say, the use of it has backfired on her through this YSL case. So I think it really shows how the evolution of the law can come back and bite you in years to come. So I think that's very interesting.
Jonathan Rapping (22:15):
If you don't use it responsibly, it certainly can. And I think a message to law students who want to be prosecutors is be responsible with how you use the awesome power that you're given as a prosecutor. Do your job, have mercy, understand that every time you prosecute, you're making decisions about how to use valuable public dollars that are also needed in other spaces. Be responsible.
Chay Rodriguez (22:42):
That's why I want to ask why is it acceptable that resources are not given an equal measure to public defender's office? And as citizens, how can we just demand more from our state governments that it's supposed to provide us with representation should we not be able to afford it?
Jonathan Rapping (23:00):
I mean, I think the real reason is as a society, we don't really care about people who live in the margins. We can say we care about it as an ideal, we care about it. But when it comes down to are you willing to pay tax dollars for it, we are more motivated by fear than we are by empathy or compassion. We will vote to keep on making more and more conduct a crime when we are told that we have to fear certain conduct, but we won't vote to fund public defenders needed to ensure that people are protected when they're accused of those crimes. And largely the people who are being inspired to pass these draconian laws are not the same population of people who are being impacted When a prosecutor decides to use the weapons they have in a way that is harsh.
Chay Rodriguez (23:55):
And unfortunately, I feel like we're going to go through a time where the defendants are going to look a lot like women who have lost their right to choose what they want to do with their body. And we're in a time now and where I think it's going to become scarier to become a lawyer as a professor and teaching a criminal justice program when this is the case. And when a president elect has talked about implementing qualified immunity, where does your mind go when you think about the future of criminal defense work in all these different areas and how it's spreading apart and how do you prepare your law students for that?
Jonathan Rapping (24:37):
So Shay, where my mind goes is to you and to your classmates and to all of you who I think are the hope we have for the future. I mean, anyone who's studied mass incarceration understands that there was a war on drugs implemented in the seventies and eighties and ongoing, that fueled mass incarceration that led to millions of disproportionately black people, almost exclusively poor people being incarcerated, being subject to the control of parole and probation being impacted by civil consequences that kept them from getting jobs or voting or living in government subsidized housing. So I think that the war on drugs led to the first wave of mass incarceration. I worry very much that the Dobbs decision, that criminalized reproductive choice, we are going to see a new wave of mass incarceration as prosecutors begin to criminalize the choices that women make, but also the choices that family members of women make when it comes to maybe taking them to a healthcare facility or helping them get access to a morning after pill, right?
(25:56):
The ripple effects of prosecutions based on pregnancy related crimes could be a new wave of mass incarceration. And I think you are insightful to recognize that women are squarely in the cross hairs of that. In other walks of the criminal legal system, women are disproportionately being increasing their representation in the criminal legal system. But this is one area where I think there is going to be a real attack on women and the people who love them and the people who care about them. And so what does that mean for law students? I think that the stakes are just a little bit higher, that again, as law students think about the obligation that we have as lawyers to make this world a better place, we have a unique opportunity to go into spaces where laws are made and enacted and prosecuted and have an impact. And I hope more and more students feel an obligation to enter those spaces and change the course of history because if we're in different things are not going to look good for the next generation.
Chay Rodriguez (27:04):
How are you preparing your Gideon Knights for that? The people who are currently in the role and ready to serve these clients?
Jonathan Rapping (27:11):
So this is not new for public defenders. Public defenders. Again, I think that America is a, has always been an example of a huge gap between our ideals and how we actually live. And nowhere is that seen more visibly than in the criminal legal space. So public defenders since public defenders came along were in spaces where there were attacks on democracy, there were attacks on rights being applied to people that public defenders represented. So public defenders have always had to work on resisting attempts to undermine democratic ideals, constitutional rights, constitutional principles. So we continue to prepare our lawyers a, to understand how to argue the constitution, to understand how to learn the stories and tell the stories of people who are impacted. And to appreciate that you're not going to be able to eke out justice in every single case. Don't let that defeat you. Find strategies to keep moving forward. And if you're doing that and your colleagues, you're doing that across the country and you're all making gains, even if incremental, you're making a difference. We are all part of an ongoing process. It's been 400 years and we're still trying to make this country live up to its aspirations. Public defenders are certainly a part of that. We'll be right back after this.
Todd Berger (28:55):
So Shay, great conversation with Jonathan Rapping who, I don't know if you knew this or not, but within the public defender community is a legend, which I'm sure you knew that, but he's affectionately known as just rap. So what were your big takeaways from your conversation with rap?
Chay Rodriguez (29:11):
Quite a few. I think the biggest takeaway is that he has a passion for this work still, even though he's experiences away and years away from that public defender when he first started, he still has the same passion for the work and he still has the same passion to want to help others realize their greatest potential in helping others. And I think that is amazing that he's found different ways to serve that interest and serve that passion so it doesn't get stale to him.
Manny Fernandez (29:46):
Shay, I want to but in here for a second and say that throughout your conversation, I was remembering a lot of the public defenders that I met in the past, and you make a really important point. It's hard to find anybody in the field of law probably who's more passionate about their work than public defenders. Truly. I remember when I was interning, when I was a judicial intern at the Southern District of Texas, we had a really heavy criminal docket. I was in the Laredo division and we saw so many defendants who were indigent who didn't speak English. And I really thought to myself, what would become of a lot of these people if the federal public defender's office didn't exist? They were people who were flung into a system that, I mean, they couldn't even speak English. They couldn't understand what was happening to them fundamentally at the most core level.
(30:37):
And they had a whole amazing team of public defenders there who spoke Spanish, who understood the culture, who were deeply, deeply, deeply committed to this cause. And it truly was amazing to see. I remember one specific public defender she had, in one case, she was representing 11 different material witnesses in a case, and a lot of them were incarcerated in different parts of Texas. And this woman for this one case was driving all around Texas or petitioning courts all over the state of Texas just to meet with her 11 different clients, some of them, their status was unknown, it was uncertain if they were even in the country. And she was here roping this enormous machine just for the sake of representing her 11 indigent clients. And it was truly amazing to watch anything that you will ever say about public defenders, no one will ever be able to say that they're not the most committed people out there.
(31:37):
So as I was listening to your conversation, that was one of my big takeaways was there's so many people out there who are truly gems. And I think one good thing, maybe, I mean I guess it's tough to frame this as a good thing, but one pro of the fact that this is not a high paying field compared to maybe firm work is that it filters out people who might be going into this kind of work for the wrong reasons. You truly will get the people who are passionate about it, the people who are doing this for the right cause I suppose.
Chay Rodriguez (32:14):
So that's something, and I think you guys touched on so many things, I think one that really speaks to the importance of the Gideon b Wayne Wright case that professor rapping explained and went into, and that's a conversation that we had as well. Manny, is this a great training ground for people to go to? And something that I think bothers me about our profession. And Todd, you'll remember this from our episode last season when we talked about when the art lawyer has somehow found his way to fighting a section of big pharma essentially, and it was something that he never thought he would do. And then the difference between what a villain is kind of in our legal field and what the hero is in our legal field and how do you classify an attorney as a villain when everyone has this right to representation. So I started to just think about my classmates and just people in general and how we stray so far from having empathy.
(33:15):
And I think that a pro to almost making it mandatory for you to either participate in some sort of defense clinic or even prosecution clinic or even get this sort of knowledge under your belt is the people element of it. Because I feel like we lack empathy sometimes in this profession. We lack empathy as a people, but I think sometimes in this profession we also lack empathy. But to be able to tap into a story like one that you just said, Manny, I think that could bring a little bit of it back and that would help to change our profession for the better regardless of where you practice. But I think it is a point to say, well, yes, there are people who probably should stay far away from the defense side of the table. At the same time, I don't necessarily think it is wise to sway people from wanting to do this type of work if it ist their first inclination to do it, because I also think that you can create and make and form great attorneys who didn't even know that they wanted to do this work if they didn't have the opportunity to be exposed to it.
(34:23):
So I play a fine line with this officer, it was a ping pong during this conversation for me. And as I was kind of gearing up to go here, because I do think that we think that only certain people can be public defenders or only certain people can be prosecutors, and you sway people away from wanting to participate when they probably could be a noble contribution to the profession.
Manny Fernandez (34:48):
Yeah, I agree. So much of your conversation really centered. I think one of my big takeaways was the culture. So much of this comes down to culture. So much of this comes down to us as a people not recognizing the importance of indigent defense, but wanting to fund prosecutor's offices maybe to a much more disproportionate degree. And I think the big question here comes down to that, how do we change as a people, how do we modify this culture? And your conversation also reminded me a little bit of justice Kaji Brown Jackson's confirmation hearing where she was asked about Gideon and she mentioned her as a trial judge. The absolute importance, the constitutional importance to representation mean before Gideon v Wainwright, the sixth Amendment was kind of empty. The promise of the Sixth Amendment was essentially just you can hire your own lawyer. And that was pretty much it. You had a right to hire a lawyer in court, but this right to effective legal representation, even if you can't afford it, was something really novel and incredible. So I mean, I think that's another big point I think to emphasize is the kind of work that public defenders do is deeply important on a constitutional level even.
Chay Rodriguez (36:12):
Manny, I just want to interrupt you. I love that you brought up justice, KGB. I think another thing that we should definitely highlight that she said during her confirmation was, I have family members in the law and behind bars, and when you have that duality of experience, you're automatically empathetic. So that's just what I continuously cape for is to have the experience. And believe me, I know you can't change everyone. You can't impact everyone. You cannot inject everyone with an IV of empathy, but when you can expose them to it in some shape, way, form, or fashion, I advocate for that. And it just brought it back to me, but thank you for bringing that back up.
Todd Berger (37:01):
I had a supervisor who had been a career public defender, and he had said to me, no matter what you do, and this is totally, I found totally true. No matter what you do rest of your life, you leave this office no matter how successful you are or how accomplished, no matter how much you like your other job, almost everybody will look back on this experience as the highlight of their professional life. And I think that is in part for me, it's really true. I love what I do now. I wouldn't change it for anything. It was time to move on and do other things. But I can look back at those seven years as public defender, and it really was kind of the highlight of my professional life and everything I know. I mean, you still continue to grow and learn as a lawyer for sure, no matter what you always do. It's one of the cool parts about the profession. But I can almost say that almost everything I know about being a lawyer I learned in those seven years, and that's invaluable.
Chay Rodriguez (37:48):
Todd, did it ever feel like, oh my God, it's seven years. Were you in year five? Like, oh my God, it's been five years? Or did the time just pass you by because you were learning so much and being exposed to, because I know we've talked about this before, you had different rotations and did different things. So did it ever feel like, oh my God, it's been five years. Oh my God, it's been six years, or did you appreciate the time while you were in it too?
Todd Berger (38:13):
Yeah, I mean, there's a definite point in it where I knew that there was something else I wanted to do. I got an opportunity while I was at that office to teach criminal defense clinic at the University of Pennsylvania Law School through that office.
(38:26):
And then I realized, okay, there's something else I want to do and another place I want to transition in. But I never felt like I got to get out of this place. I never felt restless or I never felt bored. I mean, part of it might've been where I was. It was just kind of a really fast place, really interesting dynamic environment to try cases. And so there were always new challenges, but there were always satisfactions you had in working for every client. So I knew it was time to do something and I wanted to do something else, but I never felt like, oh my God, it's been five years or seven years. I can't believe I've been here so long. So I think it was just an amazing experience that if you can afford it, I think it's worth every penny or lack thereof to have that experience.
(39:17):
Once again, thanks to Professor Jonathan rapping. If you want to dig more into the subject, you should head over to gideon's promise.org to learn more about their work or to even get involved. We want to hear more from you on the subject. So share your thoughts with us on the a lawsuit division, socials or thorough review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the a a lawsuit division website and become a member. And before we go, we'd like to thank our production partners at Marra Media and thank you to the a lawsuit division for making this show a reality. We'll be back next month with our next episode. See you then.