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Preventing that midlife crisis, one conversation at a time.
Erin Wawok (00:00.)
Hey friends, thanks for showing up today. We're so glad you're here. I'm Kelly. I'm Erin. And this is The Till. My friendship with Kelly reaches as far back as our earliest memories as toddlers. We both grew up in Mexico, our parents were missionaries, and we formed a deep friendship as roommates in boarding school. Our friendship was deep, but of course we followed different paths into adulthood. We moved to different states, we've built our families, and...
Erin Wawok (00:37.518)
we eventually lost touch. Here we are 15 years later, reconnecting over the complexities of finding our way in a life that has no roadmap. And that has brought us to the till. We're convinced that the most beautiful life happens when we don't follow a script. We're thrilled to bring you into the conversations we're having on wholeness, intentionality, and presence. There's still so much life to be lived, so let's get to work.
Erin Wawok (01:11.31)
We are so glad to have now put some episodes into the world so we can start to get a little bit of feedback and it has been so exciting. Yeah, it's been so fun to connect with you guys and just hear what's resonating and hear from long lost friends and even some family members. We'd love to hear from you guys more and we wanted to...
Erin Wawok (01:36.75)
put it out there here at the beginning that we have an email address and we would love for you guys to write in and connect with us. Yes, please do. So our email address is podcastthetill at gmail .com. We will certainly write you back, but we also would love to get any feedback from you that we can share on the podcast. Questions that you have, if it's topics that you want us to cover, anything like that that you feel like could be relevant to the till and to this community here, that would be great.
Erin Wawok (02:07.022)
great content to hear from you on.
Erin Wawok (02:13.038)
Today we are talking about parenting. And as Erin and I were planning for this episode, we found out that we both in our very early years of parenting loved the same parenting book, which we kind of were surprised by. So we wanted to offer you a resource. It's a resource mainly for babies and toddlers, but it's the book called Bringing Up Bei Bei.
Erin Wawok (02:41.262)
Yep, so Bringing Up Beibei is a book by Pamela Druckerman, and I found just a quick synopsis on Google. Actually, AI wrote this synopsis, so that's cool. The book is based on Druckerman's observations as an American mother living in Paris with her British husband and the three children they have who attended French preschools and daycares. The book provides insights and tips on implementing French parenting techniques, such as focusing on a child's emotional intelligence, patience,
Erin Wawok (03:08.846)
and the importance of a parent's personal time. And I think the thing that felt most different to me about the book in comparison to maybe what I've seen parents around me do and in comparison to what I expected to do as a parent, it's just the idea that even young children, they're capable of so much more if we instill that confidence in them and we actually have that confidence in them ourselves. So,
Erin Wawok (03:38.158)
What I noticed is that we oftentimes don't understand what our young children are capable of and therefore we don't give them the confidence because we don't even have it ourselves in their abilities. But instead in this French parenting model that she demonstrates and that she talks about so much is basically like even from the time children are born they're capable of so much.
Erin Wawok (04:05.454)
And it's our job to kind of show them what they're capable of by like being, you know, giving them a bit of time to soothe themselves, even when they're really tiny, teaching them to have patience because we're doing something that is also important. Things like that that don't necessarily happen in American parenting as often, at least in my observation. Kelly, what about you? What kind of things do you take away from it? Yeah.
Erin Wawok (04:34.99)
I would agree. I think she doesn't overtly say this in the book, but I walked away realizing how much character can be built in even for tiny babies, things like patience. She just talks about how to incrementally have your baby wait and don't rush to give them everything they want. And that even in that three -minute wait, then that five -minute wait, they learn to trust you.
Erin Wawok (05:04.91)
And then they don't have massive meltdowns, you know, because you've learned, you've built patience into them. Just little things like that on multiple different, you know, character traits that she teaches you kind of how to build that into your everyday life as you're with your kids. So if you are in the throes of young, young children, check out Bringing Up Bebe. It's a great, great resource. Yeah, for sure.
Erin Wawok (05:35.566)
Today we're taking a bird's eye view on parenting and looking not at the nitty gritty of parenting because we believe there's many ways to parent kids and most kids all need to be parented differently. But we're going to take a step back and kind of just share what we unconsciously fight for for our kids in our parenting. The things that we don't realize we're instilling in our kids and yet...
Erin Wawok (06:05.23)
time and time again, we're coming to this place of like, I'm gonna fight, you know, I'm gonna fight for this for you. Yeah. Right, exactly. So like places where we find ourselves being really intentional that we didn't necessarily expect to be that we're just noticing over time, our like patterns that we that we're creating in our parenting. So, Kelly, I'd love to hear from you if you can just start off with an example that
Erin Wawok (06:33.902)
you found in your own life that you're being intentional about in your parenting? Yeah. I think something that I've realized I fight for for my kids is to give them a voice or to let their voice be heard. And that wasn't something that I consciously had in my mind to do. But I have one child who should probably be a lawyer when they grow up.
Erin Wawok (07:01.614)
articulate, well -spoken, logical, fair, justice, you know, all the things and will make their point known endlessly. And then I have a child who won't speak up at all. We'd never know what's wrong. It's like, you know, pulling teeth to get out whatever's going on with them. But I find with both of them, for the one who is outspoken, I'll take the language they're using, which...
Erin Wawok (07:29.678)
at this age has been very inappropriate, very disrespectful at times. And I'll just sit down sometimes and be like, okay, what is it that you really wanted to say? And how can we word that in a respectful way so that you can communicate what you wanted to communicate? And just in learning, like, and I've just said, like, it's a gift, like your ability to articulate yourself is a gift, your ability to see things clearly is a gift.
Erin Wawok (07:57.518)
And now your job right now in life is to learn to use that well, right? And have discernment and grow in how to respectfully let other people know how you're feeling or what you're thinking. How do you communicate like what respectful communication is or what appropriate communication is? You know, just because you said like, it's not, you know, it's completely inappropriate or whatever. How do you define that?
Erin Wawok (08:27.342)
both for yourself, but then also help define it to your child. Yeah, I mean, that's a hard one. In some areas, I just give a lot of grace. And then sometimes we'll break it down sentence by sentence. Like, hey, what was wrong with this sentence? Or what was wrong with this thing you said? It was disrespectful or it wasn't kind. Okay, so how can we say that same thing and take out the disrespectful part?
Erin Wawok (08:56.43)
so I, and I've done that several times of just breaking it down to the, what was wrong with these words, what was wrong with this phrase? I don't do that often, but you know, at times I will. but yeah, I, I've found it, or even just sometimes I've used humor and I've done this when my kids were more elementary age or younger, like,
Erin Wawok (09:19.438)
just joking back like, is that how we say things or hey, let's try that again? And so I think they've had the language of like rephrasing and just giving them a joking opportunity to like, hey, try that again. So it's a little bit built in that I think by now they have a little bit of a framework to, yeah, like how's a different way to say that. But you know, it's not.
Erin Wawok (09:45.646)
cut and dry. I mean, it's definitely a learning process for both of us, for sure. And then just, you know, for my kid who doesn't speak up often, finding ways to create enough safety that they know that they have room to do that, you know, and a lot of that might be laying with them in bed, it might be going and doing a project where we're side by side or playing a sport. And eventually,
Erin Wawok (10:14.03)
And then making sure that anything that is said, I overwhelmingly respond positively and, you know, welcoming so they know it's a safe space. And I found that that works that slowly there, you know, they'll come sit on the couch and just, this is what happened today, which is not, you know, what the past years have been. So, we're getting there. I'm slowly figuring it out. But yeah, I think it's...
Erin Wawok (10:43.246)
It was an unexpected thing about my parenting that's like, I really fight for that for my kids, even though I didn't intentionally know that that's something I really valued. How about for you, Erin? What do you find yourself fighting for for your children that was unexpected for you?
Erin Wawok (11:02.958)
The thing I find myself fighting for in fighting for for my kids in my parenting is just that they always have me as a support person and as an ally to them. And that can look a lot of different ways, but you know, sometimes it's just like reminding reminding them of who they are and what they're capable of. Sometimes it is, you know, being a support.
Erin Wawok (11:32.046)
for them if they communicate to me like that something difficult happened at school, like, okay, well, how can I support you in that? Is it talking to the teacher? Is it, you know, working with them to figure out a solution? What does that look like? And I never, I didn't necessarily expect to focus on that in my parenting. It wasn't something that I thought about ahead of time, but I think it is something that I,
Erin Wawok (12:01.774)
realized for myself that is something I really need. And so I need that in my, my friendships in, you know, from my spouse now in my life. And so I think that's why I kind of have really pushed for that is because I need as much support as possible in my life. And so, that's kind of how I've worked it into my parenting, I guess. We all need a good support system.
Erin Wawok (12:31.502)
So you have younger kids even, I think a two and a four year old are your two youngest. So what does that look like? Because in my mind, I guess I'm like, young ages need tons of support all the time. Is there obviously places that you figured out how to make them feel supported and not maybe enabled?
Erin Wawok (12:59.246)
Can you think of examples of that? Yeah. So sometimes being a support means that you know what they're capable of and you maintain your distance because you know that that's going to be better for them. So I don't think it always means just like going in and saving the day. I think sometimes it can look like wanting to do that, but then reserving being a little bit more hesitant to just jump in and fix something.
Erin Wawok (13:28.942)
and I'm trying to think of an example for like a preschool age. nothing is coming to mind particularly, but I think I'm kind of always aware of, you know, like what, what are maybe things that they're not yet able to communicate that I can, that I intuitively know is going on with them. And can I,
Erin Wawok (13:56.302)
you know, can I speak into those things? Can I help them understand those things better about themselves? Or can I help people around them understand them? So sometimes doing the like, if we're at, you know, for out at a playground or something like that. And I noticed that there's another kid that's being a little bit more aggressive than my child feels comfortable with. I may, you know, just kind of step in and say, Hey, I think what she's trying to say is that she doesn't really love it when you push her down the slide. So how about we, you know,
Erin Wawok (14:24.11)
So sometimes it means doing that and sometimes it means just telling my child like, hey, because you don't like that, like you get, you have the freedom to remove yourself and go and do something else and that's okay. You know, so I think supporting can look kind of different just depending on the scenario, but. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, it was. No, it was great. Especially. Yeah. I really liked, you know, what you said about,
Erin Wawok (14:53.198)
when they don't have a voice to maybe give words to their own needs and just being able to recognize that and understand where they're at. That's a good one even for me now because I think kids are always growing and they don't always recognize what that next developmental leap is. And so to kind of be ahead of that because I...
Erin Wawok (15:20.11)
keep expecting my kids to be older and to do more things. But I liked how you said, you know, as we all grow, sometimes we just don't have the language to say, Hey, I need help with this. So I like that you're proactive about In any relationship, there are going to be times when some things going on inside of you that you don't know how to say it out loud yet. And the people that...
Erin Wawok (15:46.702)
your loved ones who are close to you, they may be able to speak into that. They may be able to say like, Hey, I really noticed that you're agitated about this or whatever. I kind of wonder like, could it be because of this? If, if they feel like they have knowledge of it, or maybe it's just to say like, Hey, I'm noticing this, give yourself a break, you know, like just go take a nap or it's okay if we don't do that today or whatever the thing is. And so I don't think that it stops just with, just with our kids, but, it's, it's just that.
Erin Wawok (16:16.014)
My kids are full humans, just like adults are. And that's, not something I always thought. I, I used to think that children were less human than adults in some ways, or in a lot of ways. somehow I got that impression. It was probably just my own misunderstanding, but, so something I really work on is like treating my kids with the same sort of respect that I would other adults as well.
Erin Wawok (16:45.422)
and just doing it in different ways, of course, because I'm a different person in their lives. But yeah. Yeah, no, that's a good principle. And one actually that brings us full circle back to bringing up Beibei. I remember her bringing that in, that you can have expectations of kids like their full humans and bring them into the world we're living in. You know?
Erin Wawok (17:13.838)
And I think you're right. I think we will raise our kids, treating them with a respect that lets them know they are part of our world. Right. Yeah, yeah. But they're not like a separate species. And also that we don't want to get rid of them too, because I think that's kind of a big thing sometimes. It's like kids are in the way, or kids are obnoxious. Yeah. So I think.
Erin Wawok (17:42.51)
Yeah, I'm hoping at least I'm hoping that this these are things that are being communicated through through what I'm doing. Although I guess as with any parent, the the things that my eight year old has to say about my parenting sure do not make me feel like that some days. I mean, I'm in the same like in the same place. I get lots of feedback on my parenting. Right. Yes. Yeah.
Erin Wawok (18:10.286)
I guess that means that our kids trust us though. And I kind of like that part too, like, you know, yeah, you're right. Like you, I appreciate that you're angry about that and that you're telling me cause you're right. That did kind of suck. I shouldn't have done it that way or, you whatever the thing is. so I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about, the things that you are intentionally doing, with purpose.
Erin Wawok (18:38.51)
to instill character in your kids.
Erin Wawok (18:44.27)
I don't know if this answer will fit, but I'm going to run with it. I have realized that for me, a lot of the crux of living and life is all just, you know, it boils down to choices. We all make choices and then we have to live with the consequence of those choices. And so I try to frame a lot of my language and parenting around choices for my kids.
Erin Wawok (19:13.41)
And an example of that that I hope she won't mind me sharing, but my daughter came home from school the other day and she had gotten her name written up on the board for talking. And it meant she got time off recess and she felt like it was an injustice because her friend had poked herself in the eye, I think, with a pencil. And my daughter turned to her and asked if she was okay. And because I think she was crying.
Erin Wawok (19:43.374)
And the teacher saw her talking and wrote her name up on the board. And my daughter advocated for herself, was like, hey, I just was asking, you know, if she was okay. And the teacher was like, we're not allowed to talk. And so my daughter, you know, wanted to know what I thought about it. And of course it was okay that she was talking and all that. And so what I told her is I just said, hey, what kind of friend do you want to be? And I was like, do you want to be the kind of friend that checks in when you realize something's not okay? And she said, yes. I was like, okay, then it's okay that you were talking.
Erin Wawok (20:13.55)
But you also have to take the, yeah, right. It was worth it. And that's who you want to be in this world. I said, but you also have to know that with that comes consequences because you're not allowed to in class. And so you just decide who you're going to be and then you deal with the consequences that are going to come. And so I tried to frame a lot. I tried to frame life in that perspective a lot of like,
Erin Wawok (20:41.902)
Even when there's a mistake, I'll just be like, hey, here's the mistake. We have to live with it now. So what's the next best choice you can do within the framework of the consequences that you're dealing with? And I guess I hope that that will instill in them. It will give them pause as they become adults and as they take on responsibility for the world, that they will view their life.
Erin Wawok (21:09.806)
in light of consequences and the choices they make and what they want their world to be like, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One thing I notice a lot is I think that and I don't know where this comes from, which, by the way, speaking of parenting, I don't know if you can hear my children, but they're supposed to be going to bed and they're they're screaming super loudly. So.
Erin Wawok (21:38.254)
We're just going to keep rolling with it because this is real life people. so I, yes, it's fitting for this episode. but, one thing I noticed is I, there it's almost as if we try to give the impression that things are either right or wrong, like very black and white. Like if you get your name written up on the board, then it means something negative about you.
Erin Wawok (22:07.47)
or, you know, whatever, because you're not supposed to be speaking in class and that's like a bad thing. So it makes you a bad kid or what not. And I just think that one thing that I'm trying to instill in my kids is it's not about like being all right or all wrong. Like you said, like it's about making those choices and just knowing that your choices are going to have consequences. And also that like,
Erin Wawok (22:33.71)
that you can have negative things happen and those don't have to be bad. They don't have to be mistakes. They can just be, they can just exist because that is a part of life. So that was just something I noticed when you were talking. Like, yes, you got your name written up on the board, but like, you're still a good kid. You're still being exactly who you want to be. You're still, like, there's nothing wrong with that choice that you made.
Erin Wawok (23:01.23)
because you were true to yourself, you know, or whatever that looks like. And I think that that is very contrary to how, I would say like our schools at least would like us to, or would like kids to act. It's like you either do the things that you're supposed to do or you're totally, or you're wrong and you're supposed to fix these things. Anyway, I don't mean to like demonize anything, but that's just something I...
Erin Wawok (23:28.462)
noticed when you were talking and is something that I try to be aware of is like, how can I not, like, how can I make sure that my kids understand that like, yes, you could have a negative consequence, like something you don't want to happen without thinking that that's a terrible thing that, you know, must be avoided at all costs. So. Right. Yeah. It's not something that defines you. Yeah, absolutely. Right. So in light of this conversation, we would love.
Erin Wawok (23:57.998)
to hear from our listeners and our audience. And we would love to hear some of your parenting hacks and the things that you're valuing that maybe surprise you, that maybe you hadn't thought of that, yeah, man, I really fight for this for our kids. So write us, send us an email, and maybe we'll share some of your tips on parenting in our future episodes. Absolutely. That would be so fun.
Erin Wawok (24:27.63)
Thanks so much, Kelly, for our conversation today. It's always fun to talk about these new topics with you. Yeah. Thank you. And hopefully one day we'll get to get our kids together and, I know let them have fun. Yeah. They still have not met y 'all. They have not met, which is like, we don't even live that far from each other. So we got to make it happen. All right, everyone have a great week. We will see you next week. Bye. Bye.
Erin Wawok (25:03.15)
Hello, Erin here coming to you from the editing room. I just wanted to chime in and let you know that during the summer months, we're gonna be taking a break from recording and airing the podcast, but we are not going away. We are instead going to shift to going through The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. So it is a 12 week practice study.
Erin Wawok (25:30.03)
I don't want to call it like a book club because it's going to be different than that. We're going to be coming on to Instagram live once a week and talking through that specific practice of the week. So there are 12 different weeks, 12 different themes. I'm letting you know now because I want you to have time to pick up the book if you want to participate. We would love as many people as are able to do the study with us or do the practice with us. It really is meant for anyone who
Erin Wawok (25:57.838)
is looking to just expand their life. And that can mean a myriad of things. You do not have to be an artist. You do not have to think that maybe you're an artist. You do not have to think that maybe you are or are not creative. It can be for literally anyone. It would be especially advantageous to someone who really wants to carve out some space for themselves in life. So that could apply to a mom with young kids. That could apply to someone who...
Erin Wawok (26:27.15)
works a ton and feels like they don't have a lot of downtime or doesn't really know what to do with their downtime, it'd be good for a person like that too. In any case, that study is going to be starting at the beginning of June. And so I wanted to let you know now so that you can pick up the book and read the beginning of the book, or you could do what I did and just listen to it on Audible. I now have a physical copy, but that was what I did at first just because I'm busy and I knew I wouldn't be able to sit down and read it. So if you're interested,
Erin Wawok (26:55.598)
We start the first week of June. More details to follow and we look forward to seeing you there.