Montana Funk (00:13):
This is Young Lawyer Rising, brought to by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Moraine Media. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today I am joined by Stacey Scrivani. Stacey joins me to talk mentorship, whether that's finding a mentor, being a mentor or both. Stacey is a commercial litigator at Stevens and Lee where she's worked for 25 years. She advises boards of directors on corporate governance issues and shareholder disputes. She's also the co-chair of the litigation department. Listeners, welcome back and thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Hello Stacey. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Stacey Scrivani (00:52):
Good evening. Thank you so much for having me. I was excited to be asked to participate in tonight's show.
Montana Funk (00:56):
I'm very excited to have you. And we're going to jump right into the topic of today, which is going to kind be all things mentorship, and I think that that's something everyone's familiar of. At least they've heard it and know kind of a general gist of what it may be to be a mentor, have a mentor, et cetera. But kind of just to start off, if you can you explain to our listeners what a mentor can be in terms of maybe there's something else a mentor's called, right? Maybe it's a project leader or peer support, or what does mentorship mean and what else can that look like?
Stacey Scrivani (01:30):
So I think a mentor is a lot of things to a lot of different people. It's what I think what it means to the partnership, what you define it with the person that you're working with. I have somebody that I've known, we didn't go to law school quite together. We went to the same law school, but she started the year behind me who has a business and she calls it friendship.
Montana Funk (01:56):
That's
Stacey Scrivani (01:57):
One way to define it for people, if that's the right relationship for you. It really is how the two people in the relationship work together. Sometimes it's all business, sometimes it's more social, but it really is how does the partnership work for you and how can both sides get something out of it together at the professional level and when it is a younger lawyer and a more experienced lawyer. I think it's about developing the younger lawyers' professional growth. I think when you're in a civic setting, it's about how do you become more involved in your community and how do you become good at giving back to the community. So there's lots of different ways I think it can be defined.
Montana Funk (02:51):
I think that you brought up a really good point and actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you, so the question I was looking for down the road, but you already answered it kind of is can mentorship go both ways and it sounds like it can right this partnership where you want to give and take. And I guess what I'm wondering is do you think there's a situation where maybe there's a younger attorney, a younger professional who's looking up to that older individual as a mentor where maybe that younger individual actually is also serving as a mentor for the older individual?
Stacey Scrivani (03:22):
I think that's absolutely the case and I know when I serve in the role of a mentor, I'm certainly hoping that I can continue to learn. I think we all learn every day and there are certainly ways in which I hope that I'm learning how to be a better teacher, how I can make things, how frankly there are things that I don't understand maybe culture wise in terms of how we can make our firm a better fit for folks. Things have changed certainly in a post covid world. The way that younger people work now is different than the way things were when I came out of law school. So those are definitely things that I look for younger lawyers to teach me. So absolutely, I don't think the relationship should go in one direction. I would definitely appreciate learning from other folks and I think it should be a give and take relationship for sure.
Montana Funk (04:27):
And I appreciate that too because I think a lot of times, especially younger professionals or maybe younger attorneys who are new to their profession or maybe even just a new firm, that can be a really daunting thing to think, okay, I have this mentor who has way more experience than me, maybe is way more knowledgeable, or they feel like, oh man, I really am relying on this person and it's intimidating. So to have that give and take to be like, okay, yeah, you can also offer them maybe some insight that you don't think of. I think that that's kind of an actual comforting feeling and I appreciate you saying that because I want our listeners to say, I want to mentor and I don't want to be worried about it. And hey, you actually can benefit both ways from being that. So I think that that's really important and something that I'm wondering from your perspective, and this is kind of a separate area, but I still think it's important for some of our listeners who maybe are applying for firms just getting out of law school, et cetera. Do you think that asking about mentorship programs or what that looks like at a firm is an important thing to cover either in an interview at the beginning stages of work or where do you think that these young listeners should actually start thinking about that mentorship?
Stacey Scrivani (05:37):
I actually think that's a great interview question that I think shows a lot of thought. I always like getting that question. I do a lot of the recruiting at our firm and I also am in charge of the mentoring program for the litigation department at our firm. And so we're very proud of our mentor program. So I love getting that question because it's the easiest one I get to answer. But I think it's a great question and I think firms should have that. And if they don't, it still shows. I think that you are invested in your development and growth and you're still going to get an answer about, well, if we don't have a formal program, here are ways in which you can find mentors in your life and in your profession. So I think that is absolutely a question and frankly it'll help inform I think young lawyers or prospects to be lawyers, whether that's the right fit for you, that particular firm or job, whether it's a firm or a in-house or wherever it is you're looking.
(06:50):
Because if that type of relationship and culture is important to you and the answer is no, we don't do that here, then maybe it's not a good fit for you. So I think that is an excellent question at the outset. And then when you start, if the answer in your interview was, yes, we have a program here, then you should be looking at, okay, where's my mentor? Who is it and who should I be looking to? And even when you have a program and you're assigned someone, I don't think it has to end. There are formal mentors and then there are informal mentors. It's always about the relationship and who you connect with and what is it that you're looking to get advice from. We tend to assign people, somebody who's been at the firm for a while so that you can work with somebody who knows our protocols and can help you both with your professional development, with helping to get used to the concept of networking and things of that nature. But frankly, sometimes your best mentor is an associate who's only a couple years older than you because what you really want to know is I have to write a brief for partner X and what do they like? And you're not going to go to your partner mentor to ask that question. You're going to go to an associate who just finished writing a brief for them,
Montana Funk (08:24):
Right? Absolutely. And that's kind of where it gets at the different definitions that maybe a mentorship is. It might not just be the partner that's had a ton of experience or the group leader that you're thrown into of the practice group you work for. It can really vary and those mentors look different depending on the role that you take or that what you're looking for. So I think that that is really a good way to put it and hopefully put some of the listeners at ease that this is more than just getting a job and then you're assigned to someone. It really can be found everywhere. And I do want to talk about now, okay, let's say you get that job and now you're here at a firm or you're starting out and then what actually happens when you get that mentorship? So let's take a quick break and then jump back into that kind of the process.
(09:15):
So before the break, we were talking about the different kind of mentors there are, what it might look like and talking about interviewing. So something I'm wondering is, let's say you have the interview, you find out the firm is a good fit for you and you're starting and you get appointed, let's say a formal, formal mentor. What do you think are questions that are appropriate for a mentor? Let's say it's a mentor who actually is a partner maybe who's had many more years of experience than you versus something that's inappropriate to ask a mentor at that stage?
Stacey Scrivani (09:48):
Well, I think that mentors are there for a number of things. So some of the obvious ones are the, Hey, I have a potential client prospect. How do you think I should go about setting up a lunch with them or I'm having difficulty with analyzing this issue and can I talk through this project with you? I also think even though it's a challenging discussion, I think it's absolutely appropriate to go to a mentor and say, I've been working with partner X and it's been a very challenging situation. I really feel like no matter what's happening, no matter what I do, I'm I'm having a very negative experience with them. I'm not having a respectful situation with them, they're not responding to anything that I provide them yet. Then they're sending back very negative emails, things of that nature. That's what your mentor is there for and I know that's a difficult situation and a hard conversation to have, but I think that is still an appropriate place to start with your mentor and say, what are my next steps here?
(11:11):
Do I go to the head of our group? Do I go somewhere else? How do I navigate this situation? Things that I do not think are appropriate for going to your mentor are really highly personal situations unless you have a different kind of relationship with them and you've been invited to do that, I would tend to stay away from those if this is a work, a mentoring relationship. And I think that was the scenario that you gave because I do think that that does tend to perhaps impact or taint the professional relationship. So I think I would stay away from some of those things. And then the other thing I think you have to weigh is where does that mentor fit in at the company? If it's something that you don't think that the mentor can actually address, I mean if it really is something that is an HR problem, something very, very serious, I don't know that I would go to the mentor to start. If it's something, God forbid, that you would not want to have happen, of course at your firm, then maybe you go directly to HR and you wouldn't even get your mentor involved at that point.
Montana Funk (12:32):
Yeah, no, I think that that is important and I have to commend you actually mean you're already answering the questions I have set up. So I mean it's great. It's super helpful because one of the things I wanted to ask, I think it was important was what do you do if you're like, okay, I have this mentor but I don't maybe think that they're the right fit for me. Or maybe it goes so far as they're doing things that to you see maybe unethical or inappropriate and you're then concerned, okay, how do I bring this up when this actually is my mentor? So do you have any advice to listeners who maybe have experienced or experiencing something similar when it is actually their mentor that's acting in a way that is causing strife in that relationship and maybe even they fear pushback from others in the firm because this person is of a higher status, maybe an experienced partner? What would be the advice you give someone in that situation?
Stacey Scrivani (13:26):
And that's a really tough and unfortunate situation, and I can certainly understand the anxiety that would cause, and I think one thing to do is to take a step back, and I know this is probably sounds like an unpopular thing to say, but look, it's reality. You need to take a step back and evaluate your workplace and where does this person sort of fall in the workplace and then look around and see who are the other allies here and who is higher on the totem pole? That's where you need to go and what is the sort of organizational structure at your workplace? Because I know where I work, the way we are organized is we have of course the head of our firm and then we have leadership at a group level and then we have mentors are assigned to people, but anyone can go to group leadership before having to go to firm leadership.
(14:42):
So if that's how you're structured, then you should be able to feel comfortable going to a group leader. And maybe it's not in your group, maybe it's another group. If you feel like in your group somebody would protect your mentor, then maybe you need to go outside of your group. So I would take stock of the organization and see where you feel that you could maybe find an ally for you that would listen to you. And if you haven't been there long enough to understand the organization, that's where you go to the associate or that's a couple years older than you that you can see because you've been there long enough to see this is a trusted associate. This is somebody, everybody goes to talk to them confidentially and say, Hey, if this hypothetical situation came to you, if you're not comfortable sharing your particular story, where would you go with this information? And perhaps they would direct you in the right direction.
Montana Funk (15:46):
I think that that also is not only kind of fits in with the earlier discussion we had about how a mentor does not necessarily have to be the person you're assigned, right, or does not necessarily mean it's going to be the person with the most experience. And something that I'm wondering is let's say there's a situation like that where someone does have someone in the same maybe area, practice group less experienced, but a couple years ahead of them and they think, okay, I actually think that this person is the better fit for me. I want them to be my mentor and maybe even in a more formal role, how do you think that someone should approach or what you think is the appropriate way to approach that person who maybe isn't labeled as their formal mentor, but who they think, I actually want you to maybe take that role or rely on you more? Is there a way that these listeners can say, okay, this is how I'm going to approach that situation?
Stacey Scrivani (16:39):
I think in those situations they tend to come about a little bit more organically. If people in a supervisory role are paying attention and doing their job the right way, it gets noticed. So I don't know if there needs to be a more formal conversation about it so much as it sort of comes about and if everybody is kind of feeling it, it just sort of happens. That's been my experience, that's what I've observed. And I don't know that there's been necessarily a conversation that's taken place. I've just sort of seen it evolve and it becomes obvious and supervisors notice it and it's recognized and it goes a long way for the people who take on that role.
Montana Funk (17:34):
That in and of itself is probably also quite reassuring to people to know that it doesn't have to be this intense formal process that you go through and that if you are feeling the feelings of, Hey, this person makes me feel really comfortable, I feel safe with advice with this person, that actually can be considered a mentor and you don't have to define it as such in order to benefit is what it sounds like. You're also saying in terms of how it comes organically.
Stacey Scrivani (17:59):
I think that's right.
Montana Funk (18:00):
So I want to take one more break, but then we get back in. Let's kind of jump about switching from maybe the approach to, okay, now you have a mentor, you found one that you like. What do you then do? So let's say you have your mentor and maybe it's a formal role, maybe not. What do you think is the best way to maximize time that you have one-on-one when you are with your mentor?
Stacey Scrivani (18:28):
So I think again, it does depend upon what works for both parties. So for some folks it's setting up a regularly scheduled meeting time. Some folks do it once a week, some folks do it once a month. That tends to get difficult for people to keep that other times, Hey, let's grab lunch because I'm having an issue and I really need to bend your ear. So it really, I think does depend upon what works for the parties and how they can figure it out. But I do think that either way it's important to make sure that you know what it is you want to talk about so that you are getting value from it. And to the extent it's going to be if it's your regularly scheduled meeting time, I think I'd probably have a couple of points specifically ready to talk about if it's, Hey, I need to bend your ear, can you give me half an hour? I'd probably give the person a heads up about what the thing is going to be so they've got some time to think about it before you're going to meet.
Montana Funk (19:44):
I like the point that you made that the coffee or the lunch that these meetings don't necessarily need to be, Hey, you're going to come to my office or I'm going to put it on a teams invite that there are relationships with mentors that you can have that do allow for those environments that do allow for maybe a more informal lunch or something like that to put into perspective. Once again, circling back that every mentorship looks different. And I just appreciate you offering that forward so that our listeners know, Hey, really there's not at least what it seems like a right or a wrong way to do these.
Stacey Scrivani (20:19):
I actually think getting out of the office is a better way to do it, to take a break from the office, take a walk around, go get lunch. I'm a big fan of having a drink. Always
Montana Funk (20:34):
A nice martini.
Stacey Scrivani (20:35):
Yeah, for sure. It makes everybody a little bit more relaxed. It gets you away from the thin walls in the office. So I definitely think getting out of the office is probably ideal if you can do it.
Montana Funk (20:51):
I agree. And I love a good after work dirty martini with a little discussion to just
Stacey Scrivani (20:56):
Definitely
Montana Funk (20:57):
Put everyone at ease. Well, I guess something I want to make sure that we cover too, and I'm curious about is what happens if someone is in this situation and then they think, Hey, maybe I actually want to be a mentor, or I've been in it for a couple of years now and I've been the mentee and now I'm wanting to develop my career and my experience and add being a mentor to that experience. How do you think when you're ready to actually make that switch?
Stacey Scrivani (21:26):
Well, I think it's similar to what I mentioned earlier. I do think in a lot of situations it becomes, it's organic because I think being a mentor is really one of the factors of being a leader, quite frankly. And so you sort of naturally become that to somebody or to others and you just evolve into that role. And typically if you are in the right place, it's something that people observe about you and people gravitate to you. So I think you do naturally step into that role and it happens for you. So I think if that's something that you want to do and you are good at it, you find yourself doing it just as a matter of course
Montana Funk (22:20):
Just naturally kind of fall into that role. It sounds like. I mean, do you think there's ever a situation where someone is maybe approached by, let's say a partner who says, I watch you with the younger associates. You seem as a great mentor. I really would love for you to maybe take on the role of practice group leader, something like that, and you don't feel ready, or maybe you're like, oh gosh, I know that I can do this, but I'm also nervous. What would you say to those people who maybe just don't have that confidence to take on that rule?
Stacey Scrivani (22:50):
I would say just do it. Nobody feels ready. That was my experience. I was very much surprised when I was approached in 2018 and at age 45 and asked to become the co-chair of the litigation department at my firm. And I said, what are you serious right now? And that was my experience in the first thing I said was, oh geez, let me go buy a book. Why did I think I was going to learn from a book? But now it's five years later and I've thought, yeah, well I can do this and I do do it. Yeah, I guess what I would say is when you found out that you graduated from law school and passed the bar exam, did you really think that you had what it took to be a lawyer,
Montana Funk (23:39):
Right?
Stacey Scrivani (23:39):
No, but here you are doing it, so yes, take it on. You can do it. You'll figure it out.
Montana Funk (23:46):
I love that you went for the book too, as if we don't read literally all the time thought that was so stupid. I dunno what I was thinking. Sometimes books have the stuff, but I mean, you're right. Even being a lawyer in and of itself, every day we're learning new things, so I love that you say that, right? Just do it. You don't know, and you won't grow from that until you try it. So I love that. I do love the book thing. I think that, hey, we read books all the time. Sometimes they're helpful, so you never know, right?
Stacey Scrivani (24:15):
It
Montana Funk (24:15):
Wasn't helpful. It wasn't helpful. Yeah, you're like, I need experience,
Stacey Scrivani (24:19):
But I buy everything else on Amazon. I thought the answer has to be on Amazon. Everything else is there,
Montana Funk (24:24):
Literally. I truly feel like Amazon does have the answer for everything, so I'm stick with that. But no, I do love that. And I guess something that's important too, and I hope this is an easier question. I know I've been throwing some difficult ones your way, but just to wrap it up in a nice bow, and I know we started off this episode talking about the do's and don'ts when approaching a mentor, what advice do you have to maybe a mentor who's listening to this about the do's and don'ts or advice that you have to help actually be a really supportive mentor and the things that you think are beneficial that you find gratification from versus things that you wouldn't want to do as a mentor?
Stacey Scrivani (25:03):
I think it's really important to build trust and understand the importance of confidentiality in the relationship and make sure that when somebody has come to you and entrusted information with you and asked for your advice on something, I know my natural reaction is always to want to help and make it better. I'm often in a position where I can do something about it, but that doesn't mean the person wants me to do something about it. So you really need to make sure you understand and you have asked the person, okay, what do you want me to do with this information? Do you want me to go up the ladder, go up the food chain and share it with somebody and do something about it? Or am I just a sounding board for you today? Or do you want me to give you some advice so you can do something about it? I think that's critical because taking the information that somebody shared with you and sharing it elsewhere because you thought you were helping, but you haven't established a clear line that that person wanted to do that and eroding that trust is really problematic.
Montana Funk (26:23):
I appreciate you saying that because I think trust is something also that in our career in and of itself is something we hold so dearly and that confidentiality is something we hold ourselves to such a high standard. It's ethically that means we have to follow that. So it also helps then translating that to those personal relationships. Because I know as a young attorney when I was first starting out, having that partner that I could go to who I knew, Hey, if I say this is just between you and I, I'm stressed. I don't want this spread around, but I just want to voice my concerns or vent, right? It's so much easier to feel comfortable doing that when you know, okay, this will remain confidential if I ask it to be, or I can get advice knowing that I'm not being judged or that it's not going to be talked about amongst whoever it may be. So I think that that's great, and I hope that our listeners can get some reassurance throughout this episode that these mentorships or either finding one or being one doesn't need to be this huge stressful part of our career. It's we already deal with stress all the time that this should be something easy that you find naturally. So I mean, I appreciate that and I think that that's so important.
Stacey Scrivani (27:30):
Having a mentor should ease anxiety, not create it for sure.
Montana Funk (27:35):
Right. That's when you know that it may not be the right fit for you if you're getting worried about talking or seeing your mentor every day because of their reaction or whatever it may be.
Stacey Scrivani (27:43):
That's right.
Montana Funk (27:44):
Well, thank you. I appreciate all that advice and I am going to end off on an easy one so you're clean the clear for all the hard questions I've been throwing at you. But I'm going to end off with the question I ask everyone. If you can tell our listeners if they maybe want some more advice or have some follow-up questions where they could reach you, where they can find you,
Stacey Scrivani (28:03):
They can find me at Stevens and Lee in Pennsylvania. I can be reached at Stacey dot sni@stevenslee.com, or you can always give me a call six ten four seven eight two zero eight six. I'm always happy to hear from anybody.
Montana Funk (28:21):
Well, Stacey, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. I also love that you are so open to talking and kind of being the mentor for our listeners, so thank you for joining.
Stacey Scrivani (28:31):
Thank you so much. It's a real passion of mine and this is a great topic for me to be invited to speak on. Thank you.
Montana Funk (28:37):
Thank you. Well, listeners, that is our show. Thank you as always for tuning in and you know that if you like what you heard today, you can recommend our show to a friend. You also know that we can be found anywhere you listen to podcasts. Until next time, this is your host Montana Funk, and you've been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Moraine Media.
