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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Faith Clarke (00:15)
Well, welcome to Yes and Otherwise. Judy, it's so lovely to be in conversation with you again. And we had a fantastic time the last time we chatted. and I'm hosting here with Becky that you just met. so before we get started fully, I'm gonna start with a little icebreaker. Can you just introduce yourself, just who you are in the world, what do you love, what's your favorite, whatever, and yeah,
Judy Hu (00:39)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (00:40)
who do you care for?
Judy Hu (00:41)
Sure, I'll start with the official thing is I'm a trauma therapist of over 20 years, turned boundary coach. I help people heal their emotional and psychological boundaries that so they can consciously make decisions in their lives. What I've understood through my work is collective trauma impacts everything. So that is the thing that I can't unsee even when I go out to the grocery store. I'm I'm seeing it all the time. And I love it.
'Cause it it takes a charge out of things and it keeps me in my heart center when I'm relating with people. the other thing I'm really enjoying right now is learning more about intentional communities. So yeah, that is me.
Faith Clarke (01:15)
Which which intentional
communities have you been learning about?
Judy Hu (01:18)
I went to a retreat recently called Kinstead. So it's New York based Hudson Valley, right outside of Kingston. They're trying to find land right now, but I went and and did a skill share with them. and it was to teach them about boundaries, which is what I do, and nonviolent communication. So just seeing it in in practice and getting to feel it in my body was really hopeful. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (01:43)
Been looking at some of the intentional communities eco-village. Yeah, the eco-villages, and I went and visited one, not quite in that area. This is a little bit more close to Ithaca. But
Judy Hu (01:53)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (01:54)
yeah, that's kind of cool.
go.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:56)
I
don't want to go too quick into things. However, you just said something that I had to write down because it was like immediately thought, that's very interesting, which was you said something about healing boundaries, helping people heal boundaries. And I immediately was like, well, wait, wait, what does that mean? Because I only, when I think of boundaries, I only think of setting and like enforcing boundaries. I've I don't know that I've ever heard someone say anything about healing boundaries.
Faith Clarke (02:18)
I want to hear about the healing of the boundaries too. Immediately I see broken fences being mended. So I'm just like, I want to hear. but first of all, for all of us, iceberg is for everybody, think back to when you were younger than 10 years old. Did you have a favorite TV show? And if so, what was it?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:34)
That's difficult for me because we didn't get a TV really until I was, until my parents got divorced when I was about 10. so before that
Faith Clarke (02:41)
Mm. So you want to move it up to twelve?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:43)
Well, we had a TV. I just was only allowed to watch PBS. So I will go with a PBS show for my before 10 and say it was Mr. Rogers, who was like also one of my pretend dads because I didn't grow my dad left when I was very young. I never knew him. my father
Judy Hu (02:59)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:00)
left when I was young.
Then I had a stepdad, so that's who got divorced. But I always had this like
Judy Hu (03:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:04)
hole there. And Mr. Rogers was one of the people I pretended like was my dad because he had just the most gentle spirit. And I thought, he would have been the perfect dad.
Judy Hu (03:12)
Mm. I bet
Faith Clarke (03:13)
That's cool.
Judy Hu (03:13)
he's parented many, many children through that show. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:15)
he definitely
Faith Clarke (03:16)
I am sure.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:17)
par was part of my parenting, yeah.
Judy Hu (03:19)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (03:20)
Thank you. Judy.
Judy Hu (03:22)
Facts of life.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:23)
you
Judy Hu (03:23)
I grew up in a restaurant. So yeah, exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:24)
take the good, you take the bad.
Judy Hu (03:27)
So I grew up in a restaurant. So l looking in different ways that families worked was was really interesting to me. How about you, Faith?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:34)
Also
Faith Clarke (03:34)
So what did what
did you see in facts of life that kinda caught your attention?
Judy Hu (03:39)
You could actually be snarky to each other, like directly. I was like fascinated because I was such a people pleaser because and I'll talk about it later, but to see the personalities of the different characters was fascinating to me. Cause I thought everyone was supposed to act a certain way. So exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (03:55)
Let's behave. Act right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:56)
I love that. Yeah. I also
think it's where many women discovered their queerness before they understood they were queer. 'Cause
Judy Hu (04:04)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:04)
Joe was like, Wait, what is this I feel for Joe? Interesting.
Judy Hu (04:08)
Uhhuh, uhhuh, uhhuh. I
love it. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (04:10)
for me I think it was Josie and the Pussycats and this was this is tied to visiting the US when I was a child because in Jamaica at that time from from my memory anyway, a TV signed on like at four in the afternoon and you had a couple of cartoons and then so visiting my aunt in New York, then there was the all-day TV. And I yeah, I I enjoyed Josie and the Pussycats as a yeah, it was the impromptu family.
Kids my age kind of, they weren't my age, but there's this imagining of being in a group of five people and doing stuff together. And I five years older than my brother, he didn't feel like a companion to me. So it was this
Judy Hu (04:50)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (04:51)
imaginary world that had music and excitement and people the same age and yeah. So Jose and the Pussycat.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:59)
Just
so interesting how family yeah, that's
Judy Hu (05:02)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:02)
so interesting for me now as a mom of a younger child to think about, hmm, what's he consuming and what is Yeah, yeah. So interesting.
Judy Hu (05:08)
Well, that's our sense of safety at that age, right? Is our caregivers,
our primary caregivers.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:14)
And that the TV can become some of that for us or help us glimpse what might be. That's just so interesting.
Great question,
Judy Hu (05:19)
Yeah, yeah.
Faith Clarke (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:21)
Faith.
Judy Hu (05:21)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (05:22)
You're welcome. So Judy, again, I want to go with this your question, but right after this,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:26)
No, no?
Faith Clarke (05:27)
you started off by saying that even in the supermarket, you see your work shows up everywhere. And I like this is an occupational hazard for me too. People tease me and that's like I'm I'm
You know, just on the road and like there's empire. Do you see that? Supercist
Judy Hu (05:41)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (05:42)
ideology right there on the corner of the street. what's a story that you've been seeing on repeat over the last month or two? so that you see it here and then you see it there, and then you see like what's a story that keeps calling to you?
Judy Hu (05:58)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (05:58)
And kind
of be a little specific, so not as big picture as empire
Judy Hu (06:02)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (06:02)
or trauma. But yeah, what's the story has been talking to you recently?
Judy Hu (06:06)
this is really charged for me because it's actually very present in my life right now. I have two teenage girls. They identify as female, and one of them is currently asking me to go to parties. They're called like functions or something. Something interesting, like, right? So it's like after football, all the kids, not all the kids, the kids who are invited to this place go and it's not supervised by a grown up.
anything and and people are drinking. And it's this question, right? Of do I let her go and experience it? Right. Because she's like, I won't drink. I'm just gonna go see what it feels like, all these other things, right? And it's been this progressive, can I can I buy these shorts that don't cover any part of my body, including my ass, right? Like, can I dress this way? Can I put on makeup? Can I get Instagram? Can I
So the systemic piece here is as I raise a young woman, is she is inundated with messaging on what her value is.
And so I'm kind of sitting with that because I want her to have the freedom of self-expression, but I don't want to be remiss in thinking the f the the freedom or the w the in ideas that she has about herself are actually programmed in, right? In the media, on the algorithm, you know, with our with her peers, all these things. And the piece about this party right now is I'm sitting with Cornell 57.
Right, like what has happened on campuses throughout our nation for a very long time. This has happened over millennia, right? And I keep thinking.
You know, I talk to the the moms of the peers that are are letting their kids go. And I just want to zoom out. I have no judgment around this. Like everyone's parenting decision is your own. I trust you're gonna make the best decision. Everyone's doing the best that they can. For me, I can't reconcile yet that I would.
Condone or be complicit on this type of behavior, right? Because it's like, yes, it's fun. It's and I'm like, really? Why are you modeling what grown-ups do to connect when it's actually not authentic connection? We are in a society of chronic loneliness. See how I'm going? Like I'm just like connecting all these things, right? We are in a society of chronic loneliness because we don't know how to connect.
To ourselves. And from that, we don't know how to connect to each other. And this will connect Becky back to what you were asking about, like healing boundaries. And so I keep trying to teach my kids, which is very, very hard because I'm such an ingrained people pleaser, to defy and disappoint people you care about.
To
undo the authoritarianism, the people pleasing that is taught into girls in particular, people of color in particular, right? to undo that wiring in the nervous system so they can stay aligned to who they really are, which is what they're exploring right
Faith Clarke (08:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Judy Hu (08:55)
now. So that's kind of really present is how do I raise my kids so they can be aligned to who they are?
And give them the space. Cause I I mean, they every time I talk about like, can you explain what's happening in Cornell? And they're like eye roll, like, okay, patriarchy, white body supremacy. I mean, they say the things because I have taught them for a really long time. But I need to give them the space to become who they are without my meddling too, you know, because I see things from a lens that's based on my childhood.
in my perception and I need to honor their sovereignty as well on what they want to create in their world, how they wanna create relationships in their their life. so that's what I'm sitting with.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:35)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (09:37)
And and
you know it's it's it's hard. So my kids are in their twenties and th this continues to be an ongoing reflection for me. more along the wait, did I do enough and all the things that women tend to? But there is no separating their agency from your story.
And I th they
Judy Hu (09:55)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (09:56)
they must, as in we must, as we have had to and continue to have to do, integrate all of who we are, which is ancestral.
Judy Hu (10:05)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (10:06)
As we ask this question, who do I want to be? And so as we're doing this wrestling with this either or with the kids, like some for me, it's just like, yeah, it's not possible. So I
Judy Hu (10:17)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (10:17)
just have to be doing my best. And in one moment it may look like agency, and in another moment it may look like a boundary that
Judy Hu (10:24)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (10:25)
I am kind of enforcing on their behalf. And yeah,
Judy Hu (10:28)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (10:28)
we just we just don't even know. What's your
Judy Hu (10:30)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (10:31)
earliest memory of this story, but specifically?
For you, perhaps as a child, maybe on the other side of it, or I don't know.
Judy Hu (10:39)
This is a really great question. I was born and raised in Colorado from an immigrant family. And in the community in which I was raised, it was predominantly white. So it was a constant comparison of why I wasn't pretty, why I couldn't play with everyone else, why I couldn't X, Y, Z. Basically the story was why I wasn't good enough.
So that hits a tender place when I see the insecurity come up in my children because it's something that I've tried to undo all my life.
Faith Clarke (11:05)
So it feels like in your childhood the thing you were trying to to navigate was the I'm so different. And you does it feel like that's the thread for your daughter and for your kids or?
Judy Hu (11:16)
It was it's more where do I belong? Right. So so identity development in their stage right now is around finding their herd, finding their people, right? And a lot of that has to do with exploring lots of different things to figure out who they really are, what really resonates, right? Because teenagers, much like adults, are performing. They're trying on different ways of behaving, like, everyone's dressing like this, so maybe I should wear these short shorts or you know.
And so we're trying to figure out how we can fit into a herd because from young childhood, right, safety with the caregiver, our family, our family of origin, turns to safety in a herd, our peer groups. And so that's kind of the the development. So for me in young childhood and to this day, I think it's interesting that I'm looking at intentional communities right now, is where do I belong? Because I
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:04)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Hu (12:04)
never felt like an agency to my own body.
I didn't belong to myself.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:09)
Yeah.
Judy Hu (12:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:10)
Can so I'm my child is younger than your children. I think he's 10. And as you're talking about this, I wrote down again, I wrote down, defy and disappoint people you care about. And I love that. I love that as a challenge. I love that as a thought exercise for people. I love that in like how does that look for me? And as a parent of a young child, it also like there's immediate discomfort that comes up. I want to encourage it in my child.
And we live in a real world, right? Where he goes to school and it's not encouraged. Goes to a public school. They do the best they can. I understand all the things. They have a lot of kids. It's also the place where we begin to be programmed into being part of the system. Like I know all
Judy Hu (12:50)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:50)
and I want to encourage him to question, to defy, to challenge, all the stuff. And also the maternal part of me, or maybe it's not even that, maybe it's my own condition part of me. And my triggered response is like, but I want to keep him safe.
So I also
Judy Hu (13:02)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:03)
want to establish boundaries that keep him safe. And part of that in my mind, the safety is, and I know this is with you and your daughters, is I think it's kind of what you're wrestling to with probably a bit too, is like we want to protect our children, we want to keep them safe. It is our job to keep them safe. And we also want to start to foster in them the ability to defy, including us and including other authority figures. And we know there can be consequences for that, for them defying that we also
At the same time, want to keep them safe from, which some of the consequences are like, you know, real consequences if you're a black mother with a black son and the police and those sorts of things,
Judy Hu (13:36)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:36)
right? Those are real potentially deadly consequences. There's also the consequences of social outcast and in those sorts of things that can sometimes trigger our own trauma. We want to pres save them from that. And I feel this all the time because my kid is already at 10 doing a whole lot of questioning around identity. And I love it. Trying to help him, like I'm trying to.
Encourage it and love the idea of him exploring and all that. And I can always feel that part of me going, but I don't want him to like, I don't want him to be the one who gets bullied. I don't want him to be the one who gets hurt. I don't, even though I know we have to have those things too. So all of that to say, like I first of all, fully relate. And it's some of the muddiness around boundaries that I think Faith was saying too. Like we want to, you can say I'm setting a boundary for you for safety, and then at the same time start to question, but how do I know this is?
real safety or it's my own stuff coming up and right like
Judy Hu (14:25)
A hundred percent.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:26)
yeah. So how are you dealing with that? Because I'm feeling that tension a lot as my kid is getting a little older.
Judy Hu (14:32)
So in the work that I do, I I work with groups and individuals and organizations. And what I tell them is the intensity of the discomfort informs where in your ancestry the boundary was harmed. Right? So if it's like level ten uncomfortable, like you cannot go out like that. It's gonna be horrible. You're gonna die like when ICE was like
J like I could not leave my home because I have an ancestor who was kidnapped, taken to another country to serve in a military and that so I have it alive in my epigenetic, like site, you know, my nervous system wiring. So what I help people do is understand the activation is actually information. And so what I'm also doing is I'm trying to help my kids understand.
What their body is feeling. Because even though it feels like if I say no to my friends, I'm gonna be an outcast, right? Do I disappoint them or do I disappoint myself? Those are the choices every single day. Do I disappoint these other people or do I disappoint myself? Right. And I think it's really interesting when we talk about our job is to keep our kids safe. What does safety mean?
In
a fascist society, in empire. What does safety mean? Safety means upholding the system that makes all of our misery. You know what I mean? Like, is that really safe or is that survival?
Right, so I don't know if that answers your question. Like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:00)
I mean, I don't know if there is an answer necessarily, right? But it that's exactly and it doesn't have to be. Yeah,
Judy Hu (16:03)
There's not an answer. I want an answer.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:05)
it doesn't have to be. I like the conversation around it because
Judy Hu (16:08)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:08)
absolutely when you say that, I think, yes. And I think for those of us who are on a journey of trying to like decolonize our minds, to live a more liberated life, who want to be a part of that, not just for ourselves, but then also with others, there is just this constant tension of exactly
Judy Hu (16:23)
A hundred percent.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:24)
that of like, yes, I I it it's safety and it's just survival.
And and and I think I have a feeling generations have felt this. And I love that you talk about epigenetics because it's like every generation probably feels that maybe slightly smaller degree, and that's maybe the best we can hope for. So maybe that's the answer because you know, my mom
Judy Hu (16:41)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:41)
would have never let me leave in some of the things I see. And now I still feel the tension, but there's also that other part of me that thinks, and it doesn't change unless they do that. Like in some ways, I can also see the the liberation of it of like, yeah, because they're saying.
The problem is you staring at me, not me wearing this, right? You are the problem here. And while I can still feel the tension of it, I can also start to feel a little more of the like, yeah, I see the beauty in it. So anyway, I don't I don't have an answer either.
Judy Hu (17:04)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:05)
I just I think it's interesting and and it's just the sitting with it and the questioning it for ourselves. I love
Judy Hu (17:11)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:11)
that. I love what you said because it makes me I'm gonna I'm gonna sit with that when I start to think about my son and my feelings around his safety, especially because I'm raising a white man, right? A white, a future white man. So it's very different.
Judy Hu (17:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:21)
And
and some of those challenging for myself of is this really about his safety or is this about preserving is this about survival and preserving status quo?
Judy Hu (17:28)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. P preserving access to power or privilege. Right, basically. Preserving my sense of belonging, which includes it which will impact my sense of safety. Right. Yeah, I love it, Becky.
Faith Clarke (17:42)
So when you when you're kind of connecting this big body response to something ancestral and you, you know, whether I'm thinking about even with our kids who are having a big I must, I must do this thing.
And they're not even seeing that as a big body response that may be also ancestral, right? Because I think there's a way that we see the negative responses and we say, that's a trigger. Let me trace that. But even the compulsion to conform is ancestral. And I wonder then how.
What do we do with that knowledge? Like I I I I I either want to wear the shorts that shows my ass, or I don't want you to wear the shorts that shows your ass. And both are really big. And I'm recognizing
Judy Hu (18:27)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:28)
in me this mmm, that's that's coming from somewhere that's not just me.
Judy Hu (18:33)
Right.
Faith Clarke (18:33)
And then what?
Judy Hu (18:35)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:35)
What do I do?
Judy Hu (18:36)
Yeah. I love this question. And let's see. I have ADHD, so I kind of meander a little bit.
Faith Clarke (18:41)
Yep, all of us here. We're we we're meandering home. You're you're in the right group.
Judy Hu (18:43)
great. We're in good company. I love that you're like, that's empire on the corner. I'm like, my God,
I can have conversations with you all day, you know? Yes,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:48)
This is a neurodivergent room.
Judy Hu (18:50)
exactly. Perfect. I think it's where does the answer come from? Right? So am I pleasing someone outside or am I pleasing someone inside? So my work is trying to get people to come home to themselves. Decolonization to me, in my mind, in the work that I do.
Is reclaiming our land, which is our bodies, reclaiming our humanity and understanding that we are fully human and fully sovereign. So if you're gonna choose the shorts, be intentional about it.
I'm always asking her, are you trying to please someone outside? Right? Because then if you're trying to please someone outside, then you're trying to create an image to be received as, versus if you're doing it because it's coming out of you, then that's different.
And if you look at social media, it's why it's constantly external validation, right? How many likes did I get? How many la la la, right? So it's it's this performing this sense of goodness or good enoughness or value, right? Pick me culture comes from that. A lot of this has to do with again collective trauma that has been decontextualized to now look like culture. This is resumenicum's.
Teaching from my grandmother's hands that I it's like my North Star on everything. Is this really personality or is this an adaptation to trauma?
Faith Clarke (20:11)
Yeah,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:11)
Yeah, because I can also, as you're saying that, I'm like, the decision for me to not wear shorter shorts for me personally, as I'm thinking about my decision to wear l more clothing, often, especially now as a paramenopausal woman who's always sweating and hot, is
Judy Hu (20:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:27)
not an internal choice. It's an external choice about how my body will be received, right? And I'm on the
Judy Hu (20:31)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:32)
other side of desirability in in our standards and
In this society.
Judy Hu (20:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:37)
And so I am making the opposite decision, but for the same reason. So I
Judy Hu (20:41)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:41)
think there's a part of me that when I, you know, like when I have those feelings of judgment, because they come when I see a young
Judy Hu (20:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:47)
girl wearing short shorts or whatever, and I feel all that stuff that's been conditioned in me, it's like if I can find that piece of me that says the reason I won't wouldn't wear that, like I can find
Judy Hu (20:57)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:58)
the same.
thing. And I'm not saying she's wearing it for the external validation. Maybe she's just like, I'm more comfortable. And that's beautiful. My stuff is getting wrapped up in it of like, right? Exactly. That's and
Judy Hu (21:06)
Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:09)
this Cornell stuff, I'm glad you brought it up because it is timely and we're going to be releasing this as people are talking about it. Because I don't think I realized, I mean, I knew I was feeling a lot of feelings about it, as I think almost
Judy Hu (21:19)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:19)
all women are. I don't know if I realized how triggered I was feeling until this conversation, quite honestly. And when you hugged yourself and you're talking about body sovereignty,
Like I could feel some a little bit of t tears welling up. And I'm not a crier because I have suppressed, I've been conditioned deeply to suppress all feelings.
Judy Hu (21:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:35)
I almost never cry, but I could start to feel a little of that. Like I can feel that stuff in there because I was Faith and I were just talking on another conversation before this that she and I were having. Me saying, like, you know, when our bodies are the source of trauma, it is really hard. Some like we start to shut down that relationship with the body because of that.
Judy Hu (21:53)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:54)
Right. And
Judy Hu (21:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:55)
so like when you're hugging yourself and talking about finding your way back to yourself and that sovereignty of the body and of your home that being your home. And it's just like all this stuff with Cornell is bringing all that up for me and my own like that relationship. And yeah, I just
Judy Hu (22:07)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:07)
appreciate you even it I don't have a question. It's just I appreciate you bringing that up because I can feel that and I can feel and I think what's going on with Cornell has so many women so activated for our own personal experiences. Absolutely. But I think maybe the reason
Judy Hu (22:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:20)
it is so
Like it hurts. I think for many of us it just hurts. And I think it's what you said. It's that we know this is a this is not a few generations back. This is our as women legacy. And again, yeah, and I think
Faith Clarke (22:30)
No, this is history, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:33)
it's all women can feel that because it's in all of our bones so far back. And I think that's why I can see many women also, women of color who are like, Hey, white women, it shouldn't take this to make you feel this. And I get, but I also can understand where it's like this is the shared experience that I think all women we can say.
We all have this in our bones. Like yeah. Ugh. Anyway, I yeah.
Faith Clarke (22:51)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You don't have to go very far
Judy Hu (22:51)
Mm-hmm. A hundred percent.
Faith Clarke (22:55)
back either. Like if it even if it's not in your lifetime in your body, you you know, you only need to go back two or three generations to found multiple women. And I think that's that's just such a a reality for us.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:08)
because so much of the discourse that we're hearing too is about boundaries and the the blame, right, that we see every time these stories come up. The blame on the women because where were her boundaries? Why was she there? Why'd she drape? Blah blah blah. Right. And it does feel like it brings that boundary discussion in where it makes us feel like, it's a failure of my boundaries if these things happen. So anyway,
Judy Hu (23:27)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:28)
that I would love to hear your anything that that's bringing up.
Judy Hu (23:30)
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna now connect it back to the question that you had about like healing your boundaries. What does that look like? So I have I'm a visual learner. So when I when I work with people, it's like I just pull out my felt circles. People know that I use these all the time. So healed boundaries is that everyone is the same size. No matter skin color, income level, educational level, size, gender express.
Anything, nothing impacts your sense of self. And your boundary, who you are, is the same size as everyone else, including the land, including you know the animals or the plants that we share collectively share this planet with, right? And so healed boundaries is coming into same-sizedness or right-sizedness, okay.
So our society teaches us that some people actually have more entitlement to more of the resources, right? Because they know how to use it. These savages do not know how to use these resources properly, you know, or neurodivergent people versus like neurotypical, which is bullshit anyway, you know. So introverts, extroverts, like this dynamic is everywhere. And that's what I want to say about Cornell 57.
Okay, but before that I wanna say for people who have been used to being small sized, right? Access to less power and privilege, it is inevitable, because it's just science and energy, that at some point they're going to be big size. This is what happened in my marriage when I was in it. You know, I was like the ideal mart mart martyr parent.
You
know, like and my kids were s big size in my school that their school PTA was big size and I was just this, you know, selfless parent getting a good grade. At some point I would be irritated because I was not taking care of myself, like you were saying, Faith, right? And then the other person gets vilified.
gets small sized, gets dehumanized based on how I am speaking to them. Because if we are in our wholeness, right? What we're going to do naturally is we're going to protect ourself as much and at the same time as the other. Because we are no different. We live in community, in interdependence. And that is required, right? So when I bring up Cornell 57, and again, I'm not trying to to
to minimize anything. What I'm trying to do is get people to see the dynamics.
The dynamic of domination, right? So these young men, right, identified this young woman as like a free, objectified, you know, and do whatever you will, right? So was taking advantage, right, of this.
Poor woman who was just trying to get a sense of belonging and having a good time with friends who she thought were, you know, safe. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter, right? But this dynamic of domination over another is what I want to talk about. Because I am no different. And this just see how this lands. I am no different than these young men. Every day I send my kids off to school, knowing the gun violence out there.
I am basically complicit in upholding the system. Right? Every time I don't say a prayer about Palestine or do what I can to defund what's happening in another land to another human body, the whole you know, the genocides that's happening. I am complicit. I am the one on this group chat that is not doing.
everything in my power to dismantle this dynamic. And so when I bring myself to that place, I can stay in my humanity. I can still hold these young men accountable, but I don't repeat the harm. And that's the thing. It's if we vilify, if we shame and blame, we are repeating the system of domination that one is better than another.
Right, women are better than men. Men are harmed at the same time. This level of moral injury that all of us have, including men, is what needs to be healed from our nervous systems because it's collective trauma that has programmed them to think this was okay because it requir it was required for a sense of belonging. I don't know how that lands.
Faith Clarke (27:51)
No, absolutely. because there's there's a part of me that whenever I look at you, those circles are lovely. I I think about collective healing as how how when my I'm small circled on own.
I can't become big, although I do become big in other situations in relation to other people because I'm breathing the same air. But in that
Judy Hu (28:12)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (28:12)
moment, right? And so just our own recognizing that dynamic as present. That the only thing that helps break it for me is this collective, okay, monitoring and awareness of the dynamic and therefore protection. so that how do we, okay, the circle is small, how do we kind of together be
Bigger circle so that this person isn't experiencing the vulnerability and the yeah, just the the lack of safety if you want to call it that that comes with
Judy Hu (28:41)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (28:42)
that, and yeah, it just it's it feels it feels important that we acknowledge in some ways our powerfulness and in other ways our powerlessness
Judy Hu (28:54)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (28:55)
in that moment that I need you, I need you.
to help me fill up my circle. Right? I need you as part of my healing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:03)
Can
Judy Hu (29:03)
Yes,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:03)
before you answer Judy, can I just add one thing because it
Judy Hu (29:03)
I need please.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:06)
totally is what she's saying? Because as you said that, I thought in isolation, right? That circle is both the biggest and the smallest circle, right? The
Judy Hu (29:14)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:14)
it only becomes small or big when it's with another circle, right? That we then
Judy Hu (29:19)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:20)
that that makes it seem that way. So like alone, I am both the smallest and the biggest in the room. And then my mind goes to the many ways in which I
repeat these systemic harms on myself. Right, right. Exactly. Yes. And
Judy Hu (29:31)
Yes, a hundred percent. I love it. I love that you you just name that so naturally. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:36)
the ways that I can also love myself and and make myself big, but also the ways I can make myself small. And what you're speaking to, Faith, is that like collective, in that then when we're together, that's the only way I ever get to see that my circle is either small or bigger, or ideally as you're saying, the same size. Right. So that
Judy Hu (29:52)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:53)
When I am in community with others, that's where I get that experience where I can start to kn name the communities where I feel my circle getting small, the communities where
Judy Hu (30:00)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:00)
I feel my circle feeling too big, or the ones where I'm like, this is where I feel like and that's the communities where I can feel my body relax and myself breathe. It's
Judy Hu (30:07)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:08)
where the commute these were all similar size. So anyway, I just
wanted to add that, but please go on.
Judy Hu (30:11)
Yeah.
No, that's beautiful because it is in community that we need to heal this collective trauma because the trauma happened relationally, including with our caregivers, right? But what I try to teach the people that I work with is when we blame our caregivers or shame our caregivers for doing X, Y, and Z, it's how do you hold them in their full humanity, understanding they didn't get their needs met in this larger system either.
And it was the level of stress and desperation that made them make those decisions. Right. Same thing for these young men in the sense of it informed that it was okay to speak to their child like that, because in their bodies, they were dehumanized and objectified too as property. Right. So it's understanding, and this goes back to the question of the work starts internally, Becky. You named it, right? Internally, I have a big size circle.
And that's my internal adaptive teenager who upholds the system. And I have an internal smaller circle, which is my wounded child. And so when I'm silent about my needs, I tend and reparent and bring to the same size this wounded child and say, only look to me, me, the functional adult who's living in this body at this timeline, at this age, connected to my sovereignty.
connected to the land, connected to the sun, higher power. Only look to me for your sense of belonging and safety. I, the functional adult, me, will give that to you. So it's creating community internally, right? Of caretaking and practicing to mature the nervous system so that I can regulate myself, right? And at the same time clear out the high intense activation that happens.
That just informs there's something historical that needs to be tended to. Right. So creating a safe community internally, right, is part of the healing process because it's really hard relationally to heal this if I am vilifying someone from my teenager. Right. Or if I'm fawning with someone from my wounded child. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (32:18)
Yeah. I
think the reparenting is also essential. I think I go between the importance of
others who are on the healing journey and how they mirror to us some of how we need to reparent ourselves
Judy Hu (32:34)
Yes,
Faith Clarke (32:35)
and the fact that as I'm reparenting myself, I am learning how to be in relationship with others. Because there's a way that as I gift myself the care that is needed, I am better able. I've said to people all the time, talking about inclusion, which tends to be some of the work I get to do, we can't include in others the stuff we don't include in ourselves.
So as I do this care work, I am
Judy Hu (32:58)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (32:58)
able to be in relationship. But for me, honestly, some of my wounding, I wouldn't even know how to do the care work if others didn't care for me. Like it's
Judy Hu (33:09)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (33:10)
so far the ancestral, the the the back chain.
So, you know, we're talking about personality or trauma. Like, I don't have a frame of reference. I can't imagine it. I don't know what I would say it. I it it does,
Judy Hu (33:24)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (33:24)
it's like I'm speaking Martian.
Judy Hu (33:26)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (33:27)
And then someone in relationship with you does the thing and your body from five generations aback recognizes it. And you're like, that thing.
that and
Judy Hu (33:38)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (33:38)
then I have some a reference and so for me it's it is both this healing work is both this starting with me but also the humility of recognizing that we are around the place dropping these little kind of moments of care on each other and helping each other heal and we don't even know when we are channeling the thing that you know great great grandma needed you know
Judy Hu (34:01)
Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. I just got chills when I was hearing you say that. Cause it's it's sometimes I don't I don't know much about my ancestry. but sometimes I'll sit and go, I need a wise and well ancestor to help me right now. Right. And I don't even need to know their names or who it is, but someone exists because I'm here.
I am the dream of my ancestors. You are the dream of your ancestors, in the sense of we are all connected, even in our timeline is like the same thing as right now collectively, right? The quantum field, like all possibilities exist in one moment. Right. And as I heal myself, I heal ancestrally and I heal forward into the future at the same time. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:42)
That's the part that excites
me, I think, especially now as a parent.
Judy Hu (34:46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:46)
is that healing forward piece.
Judy Hu (34:48)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:49)
Just holding on to that, knowing that, like, because as you're saying that, Faith, I mean, I have always felt very disconnected from my ancestral line. Like, I've never been one to do all of the ancestry or dot com and all those things. Like, I just I've always
Judy Hu (35:00)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:01)
been like, who cares? The older I get, and I understand why older people get like this with their ancestry stuff. I used to make fun,
Judy Hu (35:07)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:07)
and now I'm like, here I am. I understand because it does.
provide so much context and understanding of how you are. You know, I think we think, that's all the past, it doesn't matter. But as you said, the stuff carries forward and, you know, you talk about epigenetics. It's not just like woo-woo talk. I mean, this is in our DNA. It's baked into you. And it helps
Judy Hu (35:26)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:26)
you to understand yourself. But I think even more like the part that gets me excited is the like, like you said, this idea of being able to be the one healing forward.
Judy Hu (35:35)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:36)
and the idea, like you said, Faith of
calling or whoever it was you, but of calling on those wise ancestors of like,
Judy Hu (35:42)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:42)
my God, the feeling that I had when you said that of I could I that could be me someday. Like I get to be that wise ancestor and I want to be the most healed version I can
Judy Hu (35:49)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:50)
to be that person. Like that is really exciting to me. Like it really is. It's one of the
Judy Hu (35:54)
Mm, mhm, mhm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:57)
only things that now I'm gonna hold on to that because I'm like, that's still like I have my issues around death. It scares me a little, whatever.
But on the whole, it's like I think it's just the next phase. But the idea of like that being a possibility after I die is like, that gives me something
Judy Hu (36:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:09)
actually to be like look forward to as I face that great light at the end. So thank you for the gift of that thought.
Judy Hu (36:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
And on the other side, Becky, too, let me connect to myself in the future. Future me.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:22)
Mm. Yeah.
Judy Hu (36:24)
What am I to do in this moment? Future me. Where do I go? Right. So we have the support and the backing of our ancestors. That's the roots, right? But our future self is connected to us a wider vision of something. So we can call on support at any time, but our society really
Prevents us from doing that because the more isolated and anti-dependent we are or codependent, we are more easily controlled.
Faith Clarke (36:50)
Absolutely.
I think the the hyper independence here meaning the US
is also a symptom that disconnection from community and from ancestry and from land is also a disconnection from body and so it's really a disconnection from self, you know. And yeah,
Judy Hu (37:06)
Yes. Yes.
Faith Clarke (37:09)
that's the the healing process is a process of connection. And then in connection being fed, you know, just that
Judy Hu (37:16)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (37:17)
no stuff can move, you know. So yeah.
Judy Hu (37:19)
Mm. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:19)
Well, when
I think of boundaries, again, going back to kind of what I said at the beginning, because it was this healing of boundaries, I think so often we think of boundaries, you know, Prentice was it Prentice Hemple who says like it's the distance to which I can love you myself, you myself and you fully or whatever, which I think is great
Judy Hu (37:31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:31)
with your circles. But I think often we think about boundaries as like the quote unquote rules. These are the the rules that allow me to be able to love myself and you at the same time. And it's like, how am I in relationship with others? What do I accept, not accept? And we haven't talked anything about those that sort of very narrow framework of boundaries.
boundaries here. And so I'm just curious about like all this healing work and this internal work and all of that, how does that play with the more traditional ideas I think that are often out there and talked about as far as boundaries? Like once you've done this work is is the idea that then it allows you to be able to be in that kind of relationship to defy and disappoint people without the internal stuff around it.
Judy Hu (38:13)
Yeah, because we're not intentionally trying to defy them. We're just trying to align to what we want, right? So as I heal and r remember myself to same size as someone else, what happens is I have all the answers inside. So the rules and the frame, like the how to say this and how to set the boundary, that comes out of I think a lack of resource.
As a way of manipulating or controlling and saying this is the line, right? It's a way of creating a sense of safety when you're in desperation, in my opinion. I think when we are able to resource resource ourselves from a place of wholeness and embodied boundaries, it will be natural to say, I see that this is important to you, and I can't go to that party for six hours, but I can go for an hour, but I would need to leave to take care of myself.
Right. So it's going to be so nuanced with each person that I'm with in each moment that I am, like because I can tap into myself. So these rules might not apply in different scenarios. Right. So it's learning actually to how how to have a conversation and figure out what feels good in this body, knowing that I need to also protect the other body. Right.
And I don't have to perform or I don't have to overgive to justify this connection or relationship. Like each of us are are meant to hold ourselves, right? Regulate our feelings, figure out what our needs and wants are, and then advocate using nonviolent communication with the other person, right? In interdependence. And then they get to choose yes or no. Right. So I think I'm not saying that the rules are
The boundaries setting is n not the thing. I just think it it's short. It doesn't see the
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:55)
Yeah.
Judy Hu (39:55)
full five D picture of what's actually happening at any given moment.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:59)
Well, and I think it's probably why it's so challenging for so many people when they want to learn more about boundaries, you know, the this common, like, I don't know how to set boundaries or I'm bad at boundaries, whatever, and they go to try and find that out. And it's just basically people telling them, here's how to like set these rules and and enforce them and whatever. And if you haven't done this other work, if you're still caught in this place of I have to prioritize the other person's needs for me to feel safe, right? Then you're of
Judy Hu (40:25)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:26)
course not going to be able to have that right-sized relationship. It just isn't going to work until you have that sovereignty in your body, that ability
Judy Hu (40:34)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:34)
to be able to say, this is what I need for me to feel that safety in my body. And and it and that learning of it has to come from within and not about how you feel. But I think
Judy Hu (40:43)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:44)
because so many of us aren't dealing doing that deeper work, the the boundaries work that we often see, people try and they fail and then they think they're bad at boundaries. And it's
It's because but that's not really what boundaries, as you're saying. Like that's not that's part of it. But that's sort of like the last step out of all of these things. Yeah.
Judy Hu (40:57)
Mm-hmm. That's the last step. Agreed, agreed, agreed.
I think if I had worked with practitioners who understood decolonizing in this way, I would still be in a relationship with my family and I I might have been able to save my marriage, right? But because it was this like, no, no, set the boundary. That's not okay that they're you're they're speaking to you like that. And so I was setting these boundaries and I was monitoring their every move on what I needed for safety, right? I was getting into their boundary instead of just.
advocating
for myself, knowing that if this if it c the other person couldn't provide it, it just informs my next boundary. Do I distance myself? Right. But not the cutoff that a lot of people are doing right now.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:37)
the the
quote unquote cancel culture sort of vilifying like you
Judy Hu (41:40)
Yeah, but that
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:41)
said.
Judy Hu (41:42)
exactly. And that goes to the terror of exile, right?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:45)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Hu (41:46)
The terror of making mistakes. There are no mistakes, they're just decisions with different data points. But it feels like life and death, like if I'm gonna be exiled, because it used to be. If I was exiled from community, you know, in it would be death. Like I'd have to walk on my own in this wilderness or whatever. And so
Now it's this fear of making any mistakes because then someone else d dictates my value or my
Worthiness to be connected still.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:14)
And there's no chance for restoration inside that for and that's
Judy Hu (42:16)
Exactly. Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:18)
going back to the Cornell thing, because it just feels like a really great microcosm
Judy Hu (42:22)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:23)
of so much of this. And I think for people, including myself, you know, it's challenging to
Judy Hu (42:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:28)
hear you say, you know, this idea of where can I find understanding for how these young men ended up behaving the way they behaved.
Well, I like I can also shake my head and say yeah, right. Because I can also then learn, I can think of other clearly not that. Right. First of all, I don't have the equipment for what they've done, but
Judy Hu (42:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:48)
not that. But I can also think about times that I drove when I shouldn't have after having a couple of adult beverages. And there before the grace
Judy Hu (42:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:56)
of God go I that I didn't kill someone, right? And those
Judy Hu (42:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:59)
are times where I can find that, but the the decisions, the reasoning that might have gone behind me making that choice in my life or other things, other ways I've shown up.
And yet it's really hard. It's really hard.
Judy Hu (43:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:09)
And I think that can push on people right now to think, you want me to find
Judy Hu (43:12)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:13)
I don't know if the words empathy, compassion, what what kind under understanding? you know, it's like no, F them, get them off the island. Right. And I feel that. And but then I like
Judy Hu (43:22)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:24)
you say, where's where is the where's the line and then what? And then what? And then what happens with you in some other scenario?
Judy Hu (43:31)
Right. And so the the thing is, having empathy does not mean you forgive or not hold the other person accountable. Right. So when I'm able to sit with each person in those scenarios and understand the situation that forces them, right, to make this decision that might not be aligned to the larger collective wholeness, right? I can understand where it comes from. So can I just riff on this a little bit?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:56)
For sure.
Judy Hu (43:58)
So in Europe.
When resources were hoarded by the royalty, right? The royal family, you know, peasants, all this other stuff, they were desperate for opportunities. So other people were able to come in and say, like, hey, if you get on this boat and go to this other land, it's so much easier. There's so many opportunities, X, Y, and Z, right? So people don't migrate because they want to. People migrate because they have to. And so they got on these ships, right? Came to Turtle Island, what we now know as the United States.
landed and it was not what they promised. WTF, right? Like
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:30)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Hu (44:31)
completely lied to. And then they come across these people living in a particular way and they have these resources and all, you know, and then the people who lied to this group of people then continued to lie and say, they're savages. It's either our survival or their survival. And we're animals. So we gotta choose my survival or theirs.
What happens is when we're instructed to do something that might not align values-wise, when we do it or when we witness someone doing it, moral injury comes into our nervous system. Moral injury is me doing something that is against my morals, my integrity, and I do it and I hold the shame and blame of it instead of releasing it back to the system that forced this decision in the first place, right?
So in a moment of desperation where one person starts this action of genocide, right? It's a choice. Do I stay in belonging with this group? Do I sit and not do anything? Do I withdraw and just go on my own? Like those are the nervous system responses to survival. And these kids, right, our brains aren't fully developed till mid-20s. And likely they're all inebriated in some way, right?
Not at full capacity, didn't know what to do. Again, I'm not saying it was okay, but I can understand in freeze response like, what is going on? But what if I call them in and then everyone blames me, and then I lose my place, and mom and dad are gonna fucking kill me. my god, I'm gonna be exiled from the family. I mean, the layers of yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:07)
I'll have no friends. I'll, yeah, yeah, of
course. I heard once somebody say, if I were them, I'd be them. Meaning, like, if I had
Judy Hu (46:15)
Yes, yes, I said.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:16)
my entire life had been conditioned to be a man and the way that men are conditioned to see and treat women, I would be a man who would see women that way and treat women that way. Right. We often
Judy Hu (46:27)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:28)
are judging people outside of that experience with how I would show up with the way I've been treated and conditioned.
Judy Hu (46:34)
Exactly. Yes. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:35)
But if I were them, I'd be them. And it's so
hard, it's so challenging to lean into that. But the healing comes from when we can finally. Like it's what we're doing right now, this and it's, you know, it's challenging because I can be as guilty of any as anyone of polarizing, of vic of vilifying, absolutely, right?
Judy Hu (46:51)
Mm. Me too. A hundred percent. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:54)
But if we can really take the 20,000 foot view, it's not actually helping to do that. Like that isn't achieving our goals.
Judy Hu (47:01)
No,
because it's it's literally diluting the energy. If we could tap into collective rage against the system, then we have a chance, right? But all of these little fires and that people are like, it's their fault or how could they do this? And again, it's the embodiment of the moral injury. We're projecting the responsibility and the shame and blame on our bodies, and it should be on the system.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:27)
Yep, you know.
Judy Hu (47:27)
Right. So
when we can land the charge onto the system so we're not so exhausted because of resentment, right? Then we have more energy to collaborate with each other. But there is no sense of solid ground and trust because of collective trauma, of throwing each other under the bus just to kind of stay one step ahead when the real
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:45)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Hu (47:46)
enemies are, you know, empire. It's so hard to be it able to trust one another, but conflict is the pathway.
To authentic connection. Being able to say, this is what happened in me when I was witnessing this. And then someone else being able to say, my gosh, I see that. How are you doing with this decision you made? Right? Again, if I don't feel like there's any threat to my sense of humanity, I do not worry about making a mistake. I love feedback.
I love it when someone calls me in because then I'm like, my gosh, I see that. Thank you for letting me know. I don't small size myself
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:25)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Hu (48:26)
because I'm in charge of my boundary. I'm in charge of my sense of humanity, not the other person. Their judgment of me is none of my business. Their judgment is about them and their program and their history and their childhood. And that is on them because I just need to mind my business and keep healing and relating
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:44)
And
Judy Hu (48:44)
to people in the way that I want to be related to.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:47)
Yeah, and then finding grace for yourself in the same way I just said, which is if I were me, of course I'd be me. Like of of
Judy Hu (48:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:53)
course this is me. And it doesn't mean that I I don't give myself permission or, you know, encourage myself to change and grow and evolve. Yeah, we do that. Yeah, right.
Judy Hu (49:00)
And hold c accountability, right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:02)
But when someone calls me in, same thing now. I was not able to do this in the past. But now it's like, yeah. But I don't beat myself up because I think, of course that I
That's of course I acted that way. I'm me. Like all the conditioning
Judy Hu (49:13)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:13)
led to this place of me doing that. And now I can change the conditioning. I can work on that. It takes
Judy Hu (49:19)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:19)
it's a process so that I'm don't won't show up that way in the future. But it doesn't why would I blame that version of Becky? Of course she's that way, right? Like, yeah.
Judy Hu (49:26)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:27)
In the same way I can look at those men, I I'm efforting to look at those young men and do that same work, right? And I appreciate that and I appreciate this conversation.
Because I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep with it. I'm gonna keep trying. It's not I fail daily. And I and of
Judy Hu (49:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:42)
course, because if I'm Becky, I'm Becky. I'm gonna you know, like that. But I'm
Judy Hu (49:45)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:46)
gonna keep challenging myself because I a hundred percent agree with you that the healing is is in us all saying it's the system. And I also know when you you mentioned earlier about how are we maintaining the system, that's one of the ways that we look at it and say, Yeah. Me worrying about vilifying the others, like you just said, you know, you were saying.
That's part of me maintaining the system. And I have to stop that
Judy Hu (50:05)
A hundred percent.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:06)
if I want to stop the system. It's every time I need to bring come back to you. That's right. And now how are we both going to rage against the machine?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. this is so
Judy Hu (50:12)
Exactly. Exactly. Direct that rage to the system instead of on one another. Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:18)
good, Judy. What a wonderful conversation and so beautiful and healing and thought provoking. And I'm going to sit with this for a while. We end
Judy Hu (50:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:24)
our conversations with a yes and otherwise. So that means
Judy Hu (50:27)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:28)
as you leave this conversation, what are you saying yes to?
Judy Hu (50:32)
what am I saying yes to? Asking for help.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:35)
Mm.
Judy Hu (50:35)
I suck at it. 'cause it risks me being disappointed, but I have been practicing how to ask for specific requests of support.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:44)
So interesting because for me, I don't ask for help and it's a different reason. So it's so interesting to learn people's reasons. Mine is that it's like this ego death of who I think I am and I'm strong. So so funny. Okay, and then
Judy Hu (50:52)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:54)
and so you're asking for help and
Judy Hu (50:56)
And I'm gonna learn to tolerate the discomfort of receiving it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:00)
Mm, I love that. Yeah.
Judy Hu (51:01)
Right. There's so much shame that
comes with I needed the help or what I'm taking resources from someone else. And it's just that programming. So the more I can sit and tolerate the discomfort of receiving support, I can grow my capacity to receive it so that I can also reciprocate.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:17)
Beautiful. And then we end with otherwise. So I'm asking for help and being tolerating the discomfort of receiving it. Otherwise.
Judy Hu (51:24)
I can't live in the community in which I wanna build. Like if I cannot embody interdependence, then it's not possible for the future.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:32)
I love that. And I hope you find the intentional community that feels right for that. So we
Judy Hu (51:35)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:36)
can't wait to learn more. I hope we stay in touch. This was beautiful. Thank you so much for your time and for everyone listening. I hope you enjoyed this as much as we did. We'd love to hear what insights you're leaving with or what, even if it's a little discomfort that you're leaving with, what is that discomfort you're leaving with that's going to be sitting with you? So let us know. And thank you, Judy. Where can people go and find you also your book?
Judy Hu (51:55)
it's called the Boundary Revolution. decolonize your relationships and discover a new path to joy. You can get the book and audiobook anywhere. my website is the boundary revolution dot com and you can just find me there.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:08)
Perfect. I love it. Start here with boundary work.
Judy Hu (52:11)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (52:11)
The other stuff comes later. Start here. Thank you, Judy.
Judy Hu (52:13)
Yes.
Thank you so much, Becky. This is such a pleasure. Take good care.