(Alex) It's Thursday, January 25. And this is the 1909. The st. News's weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters, this week will first hear about an ongoing faculty union push that promises to restore professors power and MSU is decision making. Then we'll hear about the university's plans for the upcoming one year anniversary of the February 13. campus shooting. This is the first show of the new semester. And we are very excited to be back and even more excited to be coming to you in video for the first time. So hello, if you're watching and also Hello, if you're listening. You just can't see the waving. And with that, let's start the show. All right. Well, oh, and thank you so much for coming back. It's always great to have you on the show.
(Owen) Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Alex.
(Alex) So when you have been doing some great reporting last couple of weeks about this big unionization push at MSU. Before we get into any of the things you found, can you explain a little bit because with academic stuff, I think it'd be kind of confusing that, you know, tenure track non tenure track adjunct all that when we talk about a tenure track faculty union, what exactly that means who is exactly trying to unionize?
(Owen) Yeah, so the key distinction to make here is that there's been a union for a while and existing union of non tenure track faculty. Yeah. In these are the people that you know, it's more teaching focus in the classroom with the students. That's not to say that tenure system faculty aren't also in the classroom. Yeah, but perhaps not as much. So it's more research focus, they're writing, they're researching things like
(Alex) I see. And so these, you know, these professors they've been, they've been pushing for this unionization thing. And I think as far back as November when I started pushing for it, and I try and explain just how big of a deal this seems like people that follow MSU got to talk about academic governance. Right. And right now we have this system with like a Faculty Senate, where they kind of have they have a representative body where you have, you know, members, and they talk about things, they vote on them, they pass resolutions, but they're they're non binding. Well, I think the analogy that some of the leadership of the Union gave me is that they can make a resolution that says, This is what the faculty thinks you need to do in the administration, and then they can just kind of put it in a drawer and forget about it, because there's no teeth to it. Exactly. And I think from the beginning, there's been this idea that, wow, this union, this would be a big deal, because it would give these tenure track faculty, some real, some real, say, some real power, some real teeth, that they don't really have with this sort of shared governance we currently have with these representative, but non binding bodies, like the Faculty Senate, but you've kind of been following this more closely. Can you tell us where exactly they are? Right now? It's been a couple months since this push has been announced publicly?
(Owen) Yeah. So um, you know, in November, they kind of started their campaign. And then, you know, it's gotten to a point where they had collected enough cards, authorization cards to say we have a majority, and the majority is what they need to be recognized in the eyes of MSU. Yeah. So they, they formally requested recognition from the Board of Trustees. And they did this in late December, actually, when we were on winter break. So now they're sort of, they're sort of waiting to hear back on that. And it's interesting with this process, there's actually two different tracks that they can go. And there's, you know, a policy that kind of makes it this way, but the track that it seems like they're pursuing right now is just going with MSU. And trusting that they are going to voluntarily recognize them.
(Alex) So the university can opt to just say, you know, we believe you've legitimately done this and your union recognize you.
(Owen) Yeah, you know, it's complicated. Essentially, that's what it is. But they would still go through a verification process. But the idea is, they would say, your bargaining unit is, quote, reasonable. That's in the policy. So if they make a determination that the bargaining unit is reasonable, then they'll go ahead and say, okay, it's fine. We're going to pick a third party that we mutually approve, and they're going to verify this. But other than that, we're good. The other track, though, which they've also been pursuing, but it seems like it's going on the backburner a little bit, is to go through the Michigan Employment Relations Commission, which is a state government body that, you know, solves labor related issues and also certifies unions in that body has been involved in higher education, unionization pushes for a long time. And basically, the way it works for them is if they get if they can verify that 30% of the bargaining unit is on board, then they'll administer an election. And then at that point, you need majority in order to be certified in the eyes of Mark. But as it stands right now, the union of tenure system faculty is going more with the route where they're just going with MSU interesting that MSU is going to accept that their bargaining unit is reasonable.
(Alex) I see, and they already have cards of support from sitting at the bar for the MSU process. It's just a simple majority, right? Like more than 50%. So they don't feel like they have to go through a whole election process like you might see.
(Owen) And that was sort of the argument. You know, when this resolution was passed back in 2021, that was controversial. The idea from the Democrats point of view, was that it expedited the whole union As ation process, because we've seen other universities where it's taken over a year to get the team's record.
(Alex) We'll go back a minute and talk us through this resolution, because it's one of the I think it's interesting where they, you know, we've seen this nationally yet, you know, I think more and more schools as time goes on, we're tenure track faculty are unionizing. But MSU has this board resolution that sort of uniquely positions, the faculty to have sort of an easier time of doing this. Can you talk through that the politics of that, and 2021, where it was passed? What exactly it does beyond just kind of the way that you can get them to present go through MSU, but also the neutrality stuff and all that.
(Owen) Yeah. So you're right, it does a couple of things. It was passed on party lines. You know, at the time, it was five Democrats who supported it, three Republicans who opposed it. Basically, one of the main things that it does is it establishes employer neutrality, which basically says, and I'm going to read from it here, the university and all of its agents acting in a supervisory role shall remain neutral on the issue of union representation in any organizing efforts. And it also says they shall not express an opinion, positive or negative worry about such efforts. Yeah. So that's, that's one of the key things it does. And then it also says that, you know, they the university won't do anything to retaliate against any efforts. And it also one key thing is it says, it says that the university can only provide information to the union that is, legally, that strictly that is legally permissible. Okay, so it's kind of limited, they really can't say much. And then it also gives the university the ability to correct any inaccuracies that the union may publish, but they have to wait two days to do that. So that's, you know, the neutrality is kind of the biggest element of it.
(Alex) I see. And you said that that was it was passed along party lines, but MCs board that there were people in opposition to it.
(Owen) That's exactly right. So, you know, the three Republicans at the time were against it. And basically, what their argument was, was that it muzzled, the muzzled? That's a direct quote from I want to be exactly accurate. I believe it was Dan Kelly, at the time.
(Alex) Who still who's now vice chair of the board. That's exactly right. But that wouldn't muzzled the the administration sort of in trying to stop unionization effort or?
(Owen) Right, so it was saying, you know, we can't even it was saying, we can even have a discussion with the people who are trying to create this union. So we can't even provide them information opinions. If we do want to provide information. We're very limited in that. So yeah, the argument was that the administration was just largely muscled and taken out of the whole negotiation process in many ways.
(Alex) I see. But of course, you know, MCs board is predominantly democratic, and it did pass. That's right. 2021 is in place today. But you've been, you know, over the last couple weeks, as they've been trying to go through this MSU process, right of getting recognized as a reasonable bargaining group. You've heard from some of the union leaders that there are some concerns, but the way that MSU is handling this, you know, questioning, is the university truly being neutral? Are they doing things to sort of slow or stall this process? Can you talk me through those concerns, starting with this list that you wrote a lot about the law firm?
(Owen) Yeah. So there's this thing that is called technically an Excelsior list, I didn't use that term in the story, because it just sounds kind of silly. So it's a bargaining unit list. This means the same thing. And basically, what it is, is a list that an employer is expected to provide in these negotiations, that shows in their eyes, who is a part of this bargaining unit. And there's some you know, discrepancies in this is not just an MSU. You know, I talked to an expert for this story that he said, It's very common where, you know, especially for something like this, where it's supposed to be tenure track faculty, you know, there's discrepancies about who's considered a part of that unit. So the union has kind of said, what if they try to say that the President is a part of this bargaining unit? Right, because technically, you know, Kevin, Gus Squeeks will be, you know, coming in, he was when he was appointed, he was also, you know, given a position as tenure track faculty in the Department of Kinesiology.
(Alex) That's interesting, because so many of these administrator contracts that you see at MSU, they'll be appointed to, you know, the dean or the, you know, Associate Vice Provost for Associate of whatever. And then it'll also be, you know, faculty and whatever department they come from. So you can see there's sort of discrepancies and who's really in the group and who's not
(Owen) Right. And but there's also so that's an example of maybe what if the university is too inclusive in the opinion of the Union, but there's also what if they tried to exclude people who, you know, their tenure track faculty, but they also have some administrative appointments such as the department chair, Chairman. They're a director of a college. Which, you know, what, what Nicole Buchanan's, an organizer told me is that, you know, just because they have a small percentage of administrative duties, doesn't mean they're supervisors, right? They're still a part of that tenure tracking unit. So those are some of the discrepancies. But then there were also the The Unionist has expressed some concerns over how long it has taken for that list to come to fruition. So it's a little bit of a he said she said situation, but the union claims that they first requested the list all the way back in late November. And that point, they hadn't, you know, filed with Merck, they hadn't formally requested recognition, but they were sort of trying to get their ducks in a row, I guess, in a sense and get that list early. And union organizers have told me that, you know, the attorneys representing the two parties were talking about it. But that at a certain point, and it's US Attorneys stopped returning calls. And the list never came to be, but it's unclear if MSU was required to provide that list at that time. And it's also possible that given the neutrality agreement, it restricted would have restricted them from providing the list at that time, especially given that there was an absence of, you know, formal rec from a formal request for recognition at that time.
(Alex) I sit there in disagreement over, you know, when exactly they even could have gotten that list to start exact going through line by line and saying, who supports Yeah, and who doesn't. And then you talk about another really interesting thing I liked about your story was this idea of the law firm that's representing MSU some concern amongst the union leadership around exactly who it is that's helping the university with this. You talk me through that?
(Owen) Yeah, so you know, I was having a conversation with Nicole Buchanan at one point, and she just flagged for me, you know, the the website of Ogletree Deakins, which is a New York based law firm, that is representing MSU in this. And basically, if you go on their website, it, it notes that the firm has more than 200 attorneys specializing in higher education who provide highly responsive legal services in the area of union avoidance, among other areas. So it's bullet points, it says we have all these attorneys, here's what they specialize in. And union avoidance is one of those things which raised some concerns
(Alex) They feel like that's, you know, hiring a union avoidance firm is contrary to the idea of the neutrality that's in that board resolution.
(Owen) Exactly and, you know, University Communications, Emily Tirana, spokesperson for MSU told me that, you know, it's MSU is completely confident in the firm that they selected, and that, you know, everything's going forward, and it's okay. But But yes, it did raise some concerns. And then also, you know, specifically the profile of one of the attorneys representing MSU. You know, he's got this extensive profile on the site. And one thing that raised some concerns is he specializes in providing preventative legal advice to help companies develop positive labor relations strategies, and avoided labor organizing. So that was another thing. So yeah, that was kind of what the concern was there.
(Alex) Yeah and what is the what's the outlook now? You know, they've gone through, I guess, about a month now trying to work with the University on this process. They feel as if the university maybe isn't 100% acting with this true, you know, neutrality. But how do they feel now going forward about you know, getting this done?
(Owen) Yeah, so you know, I think they're optimistic. I know, at least that Nickleby candidate is optimistic. They are scheduled to meet with MSU HR department actually, on the 25th. In originally, you know, there was a different meeting that was scheduled that was supposed to involve Merck. And that was, like I mentioned, they're sort of the two separate processes that they're pursuing. So now, it looks like based on this meeting, that they're more so pursuing this route with the university. So that meeting is scheduled for the 25th capelin house, who's an organizer with Michigan Education Association, which is a statewide union, and USF is a local affiliate. She says she's hopeful that, you know, it's really that's going to be a productive meeting where they go forward with a voluntary recognition process. And yeah, they're also hopeful, you know, Nicole Buchanan told me that trustee Denis Denno, met with the union. And, you know, to put it in her words, she said it was informal. It was him as an individual, not the full Board of Trustees, but he very much seems to be a supporter of our efforts. And the good we're trying to do with the university,
(Alex) How does that coincide with sort of the neutrality that they agreed to?
(Owen) Yeah, so that's, that's complicated. It's largely unclear. And like I said, the neutrality agreement does say that, you know, no university agent acting in a supervisory role, can, you know, can express any opinion, for or against the union? And, according to them, he is expressing this opinion that sort of for them. It also is unclear, you know, how, if the board necessarily like approved this, and like she said, it's not really the whole board speaking, it's just kind of hidden as an individual. So it's largely unclear at this point, how that kind of coincides with.
(Alex) That's interesting. Well, alright. Well, this is, you know, as we said, there's something that's said, to really kind of reshape the discourse at MSU. There's going to be powerful for us to thank you so much for doing, you know, so much great reporting, so that we can be kept up on all the details. Yeah. And thank you for coming on the show and talking about it.
(Alex) Well, Emilio, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It's great to have you
(Emilio) Of course, thanks for having me.
(Alex) Yeah, so we are, you know, we're nearing the one year anniversary of the February 13, shooting on MSU. Campus. And you know, we've known for a little bit now that the university is going to have sort of something in store for that, but we haven't known exactly what. But you we found out this week they made an announcement, right?
(Emilio) Yeah, you're right. For a long time. We didn't know the specific details. But on Friday, a campus wide email got sent out by Teresa, Kate Woodruff, kind of explaining what that day is going to look like specifically.
(Alex) Yeah. And so can you give us sort of the biggest picture I took away was that it truly is going to be sort of a day of remembrance, I guess the intention, right classes will be cancelled?
(Emilio) Yeah, so I spoke with Emily Grant, and she said that all undergraduate classes would be canceled. And that includes other campuses besides the East Lansing, one. Oh, there were some specific graduate classes that had requirements and those may run on that day. But the vast majority of classes will not be running on February 13th.
(Alex) I see. And what is the University of playing as far as I saw, there's some sort of events, some spaces that are being created for students to really take advantage of sort of a day of reflection on this campus.
(Emilio) Yeah, so the email outlined are called reflective spaces. And, you know, my understanding is that there will be spaces with counseling support for students who are need that additional help on that day, and they'll be set up again, around campus
(Alex) I suppose which students can just kind of come reflect their use of counseling? Their things? Yeah. And what about sort of structured events there? You know, the vigil, some sort of speeches, that kind of thing, like we saw last February.
(Emilio) Yeah. So there's a couple of things planned out for that day, as MSU, in collaboration with the center for community engaged learning is planning on a day of service. And so that'll be kind of focused around MCs campus in the East Lansing area. And that evening, there will be a, again, like a remembrance event by this far the statue running from 730 to 930.
(Alex) Yeah. And then what about, you know, aside from just this day, you got some information last week about some of these more kind of permanent spaces for remembrance of this tragic event? There's a couple of memorials it looks like
(Emilio) Yeah, so there's two of them specifically. One was a memorial bench that was donated last April by a SMSU, who's the student government? Yes. And the idea for that is that they're going to be constructing what seems like a small plaza near Bercy Hall. And you know, that will feature the bench alongside some additional landscaping that'll be hopefully finished before spring graduation. Yeah. And additionally, there has been thought of a February 13 permanent memorial planning committee that has kind of been formed from an amalgamation of students, faculty and other community members, this will be sort of a separate Memorial, not the bench, but like, I see a separate Memorial. And they're still trying to figure out what that space is going to look like specifically, but they did announce that a survey will be coming out later in the winter to decide what to finally do with that.
(Alex and Emilio) I see students stuff and kind of give input on what they want to see from that Morrow. Yeah. And using that input, they'll figure out what artist proposal to then send out to figure out what eventually to do. I see. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking us through this. Yeah, it's always great to have you of course, thanks for having me.
(Alex) That's all for now. But we'll be back next week with fresh reporting from the great minds here at State News. Until then, the stories we discussed and plenty more available state news.com. Thank you to our incredible podcast director Anthony Brinson. My guests Oh, and Emilio, and most of all, thank you for listening for the 1909 I'm Alex Walters.