Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
Well, hey. Thanks for joining us for, this episode of the Core Podcast. I get to sit down with miss Jackie Van Dyke and pastor Jim. Jackie leads the women's ministry here at Chapel Point. And and PJ, your resume is too long for me to even just, like, talk about, buddy, because you've done all amazing things here at the church.
Luke Bilberry:But this is gonna be a lot of fun where we get to sit down and talk about God the Father, and we get to, look at who he is, what he's done. And the hope and the prayer would be this, is that we would have a deeper, more abiding relationship with the Father through this conversation. And so, hopefully, we'll get to answer some of the questions that you have been asking and thinking about as we look at scripture and dive into this. And so one of the things that I heard Pastor Joel say this past Sunday was the quote from AW Tozer that what you think about God is the most important thing about you. I'd love to get your take because I know we've used that quote often because it's a kind of a reorienting type quote.
Luke Bilberry:It's a famous quote that churches use often, but I'd love to get y'all's take on that. Whenever we say that statement, what are we what are we actually trying to get as a response from from that quote from AW Tozer? So, Babe, Rock, Scissor, who goes first?
Jackie VanDyke:Go for it, pastor Kim.
Jim Jeffery:I think that when I look at the Psalms, the Psalms are worshiping God based on truths about God. So, there's a mixture of attributes, works, names and titles, and persons that God had. Those four things. They just seem to be wrapping it together and saying, this is what it's like to worship God, to think about his names and titles that reveal him. He's a rock, he's a fortress, his attributes, like he's holy and he's merciful and loving.
Jim Jeffery:But He also, you have the different persons that God has, so God His Father is revealed there. I think that we need to see how does the Bible actually describe God and then go with that.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, and from that would move into a space of response, how you live in light of that. Would that be a fair assessment of that
Jim Jeffery:Yes, kind of how we pray, how we worship our faith. God wants us to love Him. So, does that look like? It's not just an emotion, it's a sacrificial commitment to worship Him.
Luke Bilberry:What about you, Ms. Jackie?
Jackie VanDyke:We interpret all of life based on who we think God is and what our worldview is, how well we know the Bible, or based on some other worldview. But as we know God, that's the foundation. That's the very beginning of knowing that He's the Creator. And if He created me and if He's my Father, that means something totally different than if He isn't. And so, we've got to start with who He is, who He's revealed Himself to be, because He has told us He's infinite.
Jackie VanDyke:We can never completely understand Him. But He's given us a lot of information about who He is and what He's like. And so, that just changes the way we see the world and how we interpret everything that happens around us, everything that we do, who we are, our identity begins there. So we can't truly understand truth at all unless we first start with who is God? Who is he said he is?
Luke Bilberry:Right. And he's revealed himself through scripture. And just kind of reminder, as we think about theology, the revelation of God, there's a reason why pastor Jim, you and pastor Joe put these in this order. Right? And so starting with the scripture because God has revealed himself through the scripture, and now we're beginning this exploration of who he is and therefore who we are, who the church is.
Luke Bilberry:Would that be a fair kind of assessment of the process?
Jim Jeffery:Yeah, absolutely, because the Bible is foundational. God has revealed Himself. In 66 books He wants to be known. God took the initiative. So, when we think about God, God is, yes, He's above us, He's sovereign, He's seated on His throne, but God wants to be known by us.
Jim Jeffery:He took the initiative to reveal Himself in creation in Scripture and ultimately in the person of Jesus.
Luke Bilberry:I love that He initiated. He took the initiative when he didn't have to, and yet he's making himself known. And so I think that's something for us to be reminded of that he's he is though can be mysterious, he is not void. Like, he he he wants to be known. I think that's something for us to just be reminded of as we said the scripture.
Luke Bilberry:And thinking through this too, Jackie, pastor Joel was saying that lens that we bring too often when we begin to study who God is, it can also the lens can be wrong. It can be a self centered lens that we operate from. I love maybe kinda starting with you and then pastor Jim as well. How have you grown? How has your lens maybe changed?
Luke Bilberry:I'm making a assumption that we usually probably start with a selfish lens, and then we grow in our understanding more of who God is. How has your understanding of who God the Father is, how has that grown changed over time as you followed him?
Jackie VanDyke:So I think the lens always starts probably with our earthly relationships. When you're a baby and someone's taking care of you, that's all you know, that's all you have. And I was blessed to have a very loving father. But of course, he wasn't perfect, like no fathers are. And so, I think you can easily start putting God in, Oh, God's kind of like my dad.
Jackie VanDyke:And my dad was loving. God's loving. But my dad maybe fell short here or failed here. And of course, there's a whole spectrum of that in people's experience. But always going back to what does the Bible say about who the Father is.
Jackie VanDyke:He's not my dad or somebody else's dad. He's the example for all dads. He's the prototype for fatherhood. And yet he is perfect in all of his ways. And yes, he's loving.
Jackie VanDyke:Yes, he also disciplines us. He has this huge character with so many different aspects to it. And so, I think as I spend time in his word, I know I have more of a well rounded perspective of who he is. He's not just one piece. And so, when I experience discipline, I'm like, dads don't do that.
Jackie VanDyke:Dads aren't just supposed to be loving. You know, whatever. And I'm like, no, he's that too. He's explained so much of himself in the Word.
Luke Bilberry:I love that. I love that. What about you, Pastor Jim? How's your understanding of God the Father grown over the years?
Jim Jeffery:I think it was pretty transformational for me because I grew up with a dad who didn't know Christ until I was 18. So it was a very different kind of a family environment. And then as I counseled people and helped them, they've had different experiences. And our tendency is to project upon God the Father our own experiences for good or for bad with our human fathers. Jesus, both in Matthew and in Luke, tells us a really short, concise parable that's really powerful.
Jim Jeffery:He said, how many of you would take a stone and give it to your son when he's asking for bread? How many, when he asks for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Or he asks for a fish and you give him an eel? And then he says this, If you being evil know how give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven? And that really hit me that no matter how I think about my human father, I need to be thinking about God so much more.
Jim Jeffery:Because He is way beyond what a human father can ever be. And even as I tried to be a dad to my kids, I wasn't a perfect dad. But I wanted them to know the how much more. And part of that comes, I think, from thinking about the attributes of God. And I had, you know, studying theology, had this list of all the attributes of God.
Jim Jeffery:That's not bad. But I remember having one professor that I walked out of this classroom with my mind literally blown. I had the thought going out of that classroom, I can't think about God the same way. And what he did, he said he drew on the board these lines and they all intersected, you'd have on one of those lines holiness or love or mercy or grace or power or presence. And he said every attribute of God intersects with every other attribute of God.
Jim Jeffery:And so, God's love is a holy, righteous, just, powerful love. And God's grace is a holy grace. And so, attribute of God intersects. And all of that kind of exploded in my mind saying, God is all of that all the time and all of that is His glory. His glory isn't a separate attribute.
Jim Jeffery:So when I start to think about God, it ought to just take me to a place of humility and worship.
Luke Bilberry:I love that. And I think you even said something before we started rolling is that we can't actually dissect God like we could. You know, like in a laboratory, we're not the ones that are above looking down and trying to make sense of this thing. He is above that. And we're trying to, in our finiteness, do our best.
Luke Bilberry:That's, I mean, that's where I know you recommend this book all the time. Like, this is just a glimpse into who he is, trying to make sense of the world, the Practical Christian Theology book from Floyd Brockman. But it that's a hard task for us to do because we want to reduce these things down. We wanna make as much sense about it. We wanna tie as much scripture to it.
Luke Bilberry:But I love what you're saying there, pastor Jim. At at this point, it should bring us to a place of humility, awe, reverence, worship. Right? And I think that's and maybe, Jackie, you can kind of nuance this a little bit. I feel like that's where fear of the Lord is the beginning of
Jackie VanDyke:That's exactly where I was going. I was like, that is fear of the Lord, I think, when we're like, I cannot understand how all of these attributes intersect. And we do want to take it apart because we want to understand what he's like over here and what he's like over here. And we want certain things from him. Just putting things for our own finite brains, we can't understand.
Jackie VanDyke:But that's where we fall on our knees and go, I worship you and I can understand a piece of you, but you're so much further beyond. I think that is that awe and reverence and worship, and that's His glory that we can't wrap our minds around it.
Luke Bilberry:One of the things we've noticed even as we've done these conversations kind of a thread is we're having to step out in faith so that all in that worship, this is who you are. I'm choosing in in faith to trust you, that you are good, that you are faithful, that you are God and I'm not. And that seems to be this thread whether it's believing the scriptures, whether it's understanding the Trinity, whether it's approaching God the Father, we're moving into this place of it it is a step of faith ultimately, this humility, this surrender to say, I humble myself to you to you, God. Thinking of that passage, think it would just be helpful for us for a moment. When we say fear of the Lord, could you help give some language to that for because sometimes that word fear, I think in our modern mindset, it puts us in a place of scared.
Luke Bilberry:It puts us in a place of the word fear is probably used more around like horror films and things like that. I don't know if we have a good working definition in our modern context of what the fear of the Lord is. I don't know if you guys can
Jim Jeffery:think that Adam and Eve, when they sinned, feared God because of their sin and they hid from him. That's one kind of fear of God.
Luke Bilberry:Afraid of.
Jim Jeffery:Yes. But I look at the prodigal son who ran back to his father. He went back to his father because he knew his father was good and yet holy and gracious and loving. And so he goes back to his father willing to be just a servant. So, one is the fear of God that causes me to just hide in my sin and my shame and my guilt.
Jim Jeffery:But God sought out Adam and Eve and said, where are you? He didn't need an Adam positioning system, he knew where it was. But he's seeking out God because he's seeking out Adam and Eve. He wants to forgive, he wants to restore. And so God is that kind of a God.
Jim Jeffery:Holy, righteous, just, wrath, yes. But grace, mercy, and love, All the time. He's all of that.
Jackie VanDyke:And I think of the prodigal son knowing his unworthiness goes back in complete humility. And I think humility and the fear of the Lord, I mean, those just have to go hand in hand because there can't be any sense of pride when you're approaching a holy, righteous, almighty God. But keeping those attributes in mind is what allows us to come to Him with that coming back and accepting His grace and His forgiveness and His mercy and the gratitude even of how great that is, knowing how undeserving I am.
Luke Bilberry:It's cool to see, like, in my mind, like, imagining, like, this fear of the Lord is wisdom, and yet then it's humility, but then it brings it to gratitude. And there's there's like this they just kinda like these they keep feeding one another. The more I'm in awe of who God is, afraid in fear of the Lord, the more I understand who he is and the more I humble myself. And yet it brings us gratitude and this peace and this joy that I think like what we keep coming back to that feels like that's true worship. Right?
Jackie VanDyke:Yes. Greater fear. I mean, just keeps going because the more you know them, the more reverent you're like, just your mind is blown. And you walk out going, wow.
Luke Bilberry:Speaking of that, so Pastor Jim, one of the things you teach often that I remember, this is just this is kind of a freebie for us on the podcast. It doesn't have to do with but it has to do with the study of God. But you often quote is it Colossians one nine and ten about that kind of like ever growing cycle? I don't if you could unpack that for us. So, little sidebar here, go with this on this one.
Luke Bilberry:Pastor Jim taught me this almost ten years ago and it just always comes back Well, you to
Jim Jeffery:something I said a day ago, I'm really encouraged.
Luke Bilberry:So, J, I'm tracking.
Jim Jeffery:Paul's prayer in Colossians one to me is just really, a kind of foundational of how we're supposed to learn and think. And Paul is praying for these believers on Colossae who are getting kind of messed up with some Greek philosophy as well as some Jewish legalism. So, he's trying to help them to think. And he prays for them that they would be filled with the knowledge of his will and all wisdom and spiritual understanding, that they would walk worthy of the Lord and that they would actually be able to then serve and then grow further in the knowledge of God. It's like a cycle of learning.
Jim Jeffery:So, knowledge to me is having the truth from God in his revelation in Scripture. And then understanding is the insight, the light going on about what that means. But then wisdom is the application of that knowledge and understanding to real life, where the rubber meets the road. And a Jewish view of learning was not information. We're living in an information age.
Jim Jeffery:We're drowning in information, but there's a huge lack of wisdom. And one of the things that God our Father wants to develop in us, the book of Proverbs, the Father teaching his son and daughters wisdom, because wisdom is applying that to life so that we can walk worthy, is now the life that we live, our behavior, our conduct, our character, our relationships, and then we will be able to serve and impact others. Now we're humble because that process leaves us humble. Every person you ever meet is insecure. Insecurity is the human condition because of the fall.
Jim Jeffery:So we respond to our insecurity one of two ways: either trying to cover up with pride or to come before God with humility. If we come before God with humility, God gives grace to the humble, that's the father of the prodigal. If we come before God with pride, James says he holds a proud afar off. So, when we come to God in our prideful self, we will cycle downward in pride and insecurity, more insecurity because other people get turned off for it too. When we humble ourselves before God, God gives grace and we have a new identity.
Jim Jeffery:When we come to Jesus, our heavenly Father gives us a new identity in Him that we are His child. So, for God to be the father of Jesus is one thing, because He's the only begotten son of God equal to the father. That's not us. We are children of God by the new birth and by adoption. And so, Jesus makes that possible that we can come in humility to God and we can have this relationship with Him.
Luke Bilberry:And it's just ever growing, deepening as we stay in that humility cycle, this all That of this makes
Jackie VanDyke:me think of a little child. And that's Jesus always you know, he uplifts children. And in one John, he always you know, little children, he calls us that because that's the posture we're supposed to have. When you when you think about a child with his father, totally trusting, totally humble. He doesn't think he's better.
Jackie VanDyke:It's like, my dad can do anything. My dad's big And and that posture of a little child that unfortunately we grow out of, and then we think we're all that and we can handle life ourselves. That's where he wants us to stay. Constantly just our hand in his, wherever you tell me to go, I trust you. You know everything.
Jackie VanDyke:And so, that's just such a picture when I read that in one John, little children, I'm like, oh, yeah,
Luke Bilberry:little child. When it kind of ties back into like what what pastor Jim was talking about, like, if heavenly father is he's going to give us what we need. He has a good father who takes care of us, you know, and just even thinking about like that little kid's song, you know, growing up, my God is so big, so strong and so mighty. There's nothing my God cannot do. Right?
Luke Bilberry:Like, if that's the truth, the like, the simple truth reduce it down, when we think about God, who he is, is the greatest thing about us because it puts us back in that place of I'm a child dearly loved, taken care of, protected, secure, all those things that I think at a soul level, we're actually longing for. We just don't necessarily know how to communicate that well in our lives. We can lead into messes if we're not mindful of that. I want to kind of focus in on Exodus 34. We kind of get this this painting a little bit of who God is because what I see sometimes as we've been walking through this as well, it's hard to talk about the Trinity because you want to talk about the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.
Luke Bilberry:When we wanna talk about the Father, there's this linkage where we're talking about God. And so sometimes our interchange about who God is, but I wanna give specifics and kinda look at some of these things because I think one of the things you were touching on, I wanna come back to the kind of this high view of God and this low view God, this fear or afraid of or fearless kind of mentality. I wanna look at this a little bit. But it tells us in Exodus 34 verse six, the Lord passed before him and proclaimed the Lord the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty visiting the inequity of the father on the children and the children's children to the third and fourth generation. That's a lot that's happening in that passage to define who God is.
Luke Bilberry:How do you guys approach this passage and this understanding if who if this is who God is, this is who the father is. How how do we, as modern day people trying to understand the scriptures, what should I be gleaning and understanding about who God is in this passage?
Jim Jeffery:Think when you look at the context of this passage, the person who he's interacting with is Moses. And Moses makes this really wild request of God. Show me your glory. This is the man
Luke Bilberry:Is that humility or pride?
Jim Jeffery:This is man who saw God in the burning potion. Most humble man, This is Moses who went down into Egypt and the plagues, which was a direct attack on every one of the fake deities of Egypt. This is Moses of the Passover, Moses of the parting of the Red Sea, Moses who is the law receiver from God on top of Mount Sinai. And then he says, God, show me your glory. And so God actually does something in an audio visual way, but when He speaks to him, God Himself speaks about His own attributes.
Jim Jeffery:When God is answering his request, show me your glory, God speaks about his attributes. So, we are in really good standing when we say the glory of God is the sum total of all of his attributes intersecting with one another. Let it blow your mind. If you can wrap your mind around God, He's not big enough to be God. I think about Isaiah chapter six when we talk about the fear of God.
Jim Jeffery:So, Isaiah says, In the year that king Uzziah died, what did he die of? He died of leprosy because he didn't have the fear of God. He enters in to function as a priest and God hadn't called him that. Isaiah, though, sees God high and lifted up and sees on the throne. He hears the holiness of God expressed by the angels.
Jim Jeffery:He senses the shaking of the temple because of the power of God. And he sees God and he is aware of his own sinfulness. That's the fear of God. Uzziah didn't have it, Isaiah did. He had that fear of God.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. So this this high view, this holiness of who who God is, and and we get it, like, it's an interesting thing to think about Moses praying, God, show me your glory. And maybe a modern way to translate that would be, God, can I fully know you? Would you allow me to fully know you? Would that be a fair assessment of that prayer?
Luke Bilberry:That I see you, that I know you, this one that has led me from a burning bush through all these miraculous encounters. God, I'm trying to be faithful. I just want to know you more. Would that be a fair assessment?
Jackie VanDyke:I think so. I'm going to defer to Pastor Tim on that one. But I love what you said about how he gives us words to put to it. He didn't just show him some fireworks display or something. He gave him his attributes, which we have today.
Jackie VanDyke:And as we delve into what those mean and as we read stories of scripture that put flesh and bones, we can see how he displays those attributes in color in people's lives, then we do get this greater sense of what He's really like.
Jim Jeffery:I think the fascinating thing about Moses and Paul for just a moment, two people who really knew God really well.
Luke Bilberry:They had unique encounters, walked with them in unique ways.
Jim Jeffery:Yeah. And so Moses comes to the end of his life in Deuteronomy and he's asking for more of God. He said, I've just begun to know the fringes of your ways. And then Paul, towards the end of his life, he was writing one of the prison letters in Philippians, he said, That I may know him in the power of his resurrection. Like, really?
Jim Jeffery:Paul, you wrote all these letters.
Jackie VanDyke:You should know him pretty well.
Jim Jeffery:But there's so much more. We will never exhaust the person of God. See, that's the difference. Man creates God in his own image and idolatry and false philosophy and false religions. We're actually creating God in our image, God we can package, a God we can control.
Jim Jeffery:But the true and living God creates us in His image and therefore we only know Him because He's revealed Himself respond to His self revelation, which is why the Bible is so critically important. Because if we don't look at creation through the lens of Scripture, we're not going to know it. I think another thing is people struggle with a view of God as Father because of the problem of suffering. I think it's hard for us to talk about God without suffering. And so, maybe we should just delve into that a little bit.
Jim Jeffery:About God as Father and the reality of suffering in our world?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, I mean, I think because the question, why would a good God allow these things to happen, right? But I think it can't usually come back to this. It feels like there's a point of tension that we're having to live in to understand this is that we get this description, right? Even in Exodus 34, that the Lord is gracious, merciless, slow to anger, bounding in steadfast love, faithfulness, keeping in steadfast, but it says He's also that God who will, He will see His judgment.
Jackie VanDyke:If He
Luke Bilberry:is just, this is who He is because He can't allow these things to go by. And so it's this misunderstanding of my estimation, Pastor Jim, is that our suffering is we mistake it as God doing to us. But it's actually the brokenness of the world that things are happening to us, but we have a good God who's working in the midst of those redeeming and restoring. And so we actually misattribute suffering to God whenever those didn't come from him. Those came from our brokenness, our fall, our flesh, but he's working a story out that's greater than we could ever imagine.
Jim Jeffery:And yet God is sovereign. God's in control. So, the tension gets either God isn't loving and good and kind, or he's not in control. And yet the Bible reveals he's both. He's both.
Luke Bilberry:Yes.
Jim Jeffery:Remember as a child getting for Christmas a kaleidoscope. And you kind of remember taking that thing and holding up the light and you turn it and you get all these different images. And they were really pretty and different colors and things. But imagine for a moment a kaleidoscope that's really, really ugly. That's just black and gray and it's really almost horrific when you look through it.
Jim Jeffery:That's what happens when we look at God through the lens of a broken, fallen world. We see the ugliness of our world and we project them unto God. Yet, when I look through the lens of Scripture or the lens of the person of Christ, I'm saying, okay, I can't understand why certain things happen. I can't. I can't give the answer to why for everything.
Jim Jeffery:But I can look through the lens of scripture and I can see a God who shows up on this planet in the portion of Jesus and walks among people and cares and is compassionate and heals people and then dies on the cross to deal with the root cause of all suffering. So, that's not a God who's playing with us as chess pieces. So, I want to look at God, not through the lens of a broken world, but look at God through the lens of his self revelation.
Jackie VanDyke:The God who took on our suffering. Yes. And I think of Hebrews 12 and how God disciplines us, but he does it so we can share in his holiness. It's sanctifying. And he has such a bigger perspective and one that we can't understand on the side of eternity.
Jackie VanDyke:And yet he says working all things out for the good of those who love him. And that can sound trite, and yet when we read scripture, we can see bigger perspective that he has.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, well, it's of pulling out those kind of two tension points of God's the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, right? And we can be afraid and awe and reverent of his holiness. But there's this other part, there's this in Romans, you know, that we we have not been given spirits of fear or timidity, but we get to come before God boldly and to say, cry out, Abba, Father. Right? There's this there's that tension even that that we continue to draw out that God the Father exists in this known but unknown state, but we get to experience it in deep loving intimacy and deep reverence and humility.
Luke Bilberry:Right? How how help me help us understand how can we live and exist in between those two. Then maybe even Jackie, you begin to kind of highlight some of this what does it look like for God to be Abba Father for us?
Jackie VanDyke:I mean, I just think of, again, I go back to being a child and kind of, you know, that crawling up in your daddy's lap when the world, whatever your world at the time, is falling apart. And that's who he is. He is there in the brokenness. He sent his son into the brokenness to die for us and to take all the punishment that we deserve. And He, because of that, allows us to access all of those attributes of His love and His mercy and His tenderness and His grace and all the kindness and the goodness that He makes available to us just by calling out to Him, as we can just cry out to Him.
Jackie VanDyke:And so, yeah, I like to go back to that picture of a child a lot because that just helps me think of who he is to me.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. What would you say, Patchy, I'm kind of thinking through this other side of this other nuance of who God the Father is.
Jim Jeffery:I think in Matthew chapter six and seven, Jesus is giving the Sermon on the Mount and in it, He's teaching His disciples to pray. And He says, don't pray like these religious they're making a theater out of prayer. They're trying to be seen and heard of men like they're talking through a stained glass window voice. He says, Just come to God as Father. And then he teaches his disciples to pray, Our Father, which art in heaven.
Jim Jeffery:Intimate, see, transcendence. He's above us,
Luke Bilberry:seated on the
Jim Jeffery:throne, but He's intimate. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, be worshipped. Your kingdom come. God, you're a king, you're to rule our lives. Your will be done on earth as is in heaven, like the angels and saints do it there.
Jim Jeffery:Then we come to our Father and we say, we need bread, we need food to eat. And a lot of people in the world, it's hand to mouth. Bread to eat, food provision. He's a good Father, He provides for us. And then we're to come to Him for forgiveness, like the prodigal son.
Jim Jeffery:And we're to forgive others, to extend that forgiveness to others. We're not to be led into temptation. God's the protector of his children. And yet, we end with this glory to his attributes. So I think about that, and I think about also how the Father provides.
Jim Jeffery:I think about my dad. My dad was an auto mechanic, worked hard his whole life, and he was a really good provider. But God didn't even create a provider. He says, don't worry about food and clothing because your father will meet those needs. And so I think about that, how good our father is, So that He's holy and separate, and yet He is intimately involved and present with us.
Jackie VanDyke:I think of His guidance too. I think it's in Deuteronomy where He first calls Himself Father, like a father I led you. And every step of the way where the children of Israel through the Red Sea and all of that to the promised land. And that's his role today. Again, my hand in his and just one step at a time, he's guiding.
Jackie VanDyke:Takes so much pressure off that I don't have to have it all figured out. I've got a father who knows the way, who's got the map, who's telling me where to go.
Jim Jeffery:Yeah. Proverbs three:five-six in the context of the father teaching his children, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Don't lean on your own understanding. You're not going figure everything out. In all your ways, your paths, acknowledge Him, see what He's doing, and He will direct your paths.
Luke Bilberry:He's faithful to do that. As you're talking, I imagine conversations with my boys, you know, and they are making logical sense, but they don't understand the bigger picture as dad. They're like, but I could just do this, this, this, and we're good to go. And I'm like, buddy, there's
Jackie VanDyke:You don't get it.
Luke Bilberry:You don't get there. There's a broader picture at play whenever you're But yes, it makes sense in your mind and your finite child childish ways. But trust me in this, I love you enough to say, hey, you don't need to eat ice cream for three meals at a time because there's there's a bigger picture. But this makes sense, dad, blah, blah, you know, like, that's a silly illustration. But love what we're seeing here is this, that he is both loving and yet he is worthy of our honor, reverence.
Luke Bilberry:And I think that's one of those things that if we can, as followers of Jesus, if we can kind of live in that tension, because I think we have some defaults, some of us are going be more prone to be like, God is all loving and anything that looks like discipline, we're going to want to run away from. But if God is all holy and reverence, then how do I approach this? I don't even know how do I have a conversation with this God. But that point that you guys are making, you know, is that he is deeply intimate yet infinitely transcendent. You know, he is above all we could ever ask or imagine and know.
Luke Bilberry:And yet he says, here I am. And then we're invited through Jesus. Right? The the doorway through Jesus Christ to know the father, to walk with him, to draw near to him. I love pastor, you got you got thoughts to jump in there, buddy.
Luke Bilberry:And then I wanna think through a little bit about the prodigal son parable that Jesus tells us because I think we begin to see so much about who God the father is in that passage in particular. Well,
Jim Jeffery:first John talks about little children. It's a family letter. And when you get to the third chapter, I just really appreciate this text. He said, See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God. And then he says, And so we are.
Jim Jeffery:Sort of like highlight that, underline that,
Luke Bilberry:case you didn't get it.
Jim Jeffery:Reason why the world doesn't know us is because it doesn't know Him. Beloved, what a great title in this context, we are God's children now. And what we will be has not yet appeared. But we know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is. We're going to take on the family resemblance.
Jim Jeffery:I remember, just looking at your boys, they are so much like you, they I really
Luke Bilberry:feel
Jim Jeffery:sorry for my son Daniel because he's just like your dad. I wish we could have improved that. Everyone who has this hope purifies himself even as he is pure. And so, what he's saying, in this world of suffering and difficulty, it's not the end of our Father's relationship with us. Our Father is going to see to it that the restoration of all things is going to come.
Jim Jeffery:He says because he's our father and he's a good father, he's going to restore all things. Suffering, death, disease, cancer, wars, abuse of little children, not going to stand. It's not going to stand because our good father is gonna restore all things. And you've been through, we've been through so much suffering in our life. The Bible talks a lot about suffering and we need to understand that God our Father teaches us wisdom about suffering saying, yes, suffering now but glory later.
Jim Jeffery:That's a part of his father relationship with us. A human father ought to help his child interpret life. About wisdom and saying, You know what, this world is broken, but here's who God is. And don't interpret the nature of God by a broken fallen world.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, I mean, because you brought up my boys, it reminds me of a story. I'm always careful when I tell stories because I wanna make sure, man, I'm flawed. I'm broken. I don't have it all figured out. But there was a moment last baseball season with Wyatt, and he, man, had a really tough game.
Luke Bilberry:And all of sudden, the game's over. It's beginning, like, overcast. It's getting chilly. And he just starts breaking down and he's crying. And he's he's like, is it part of it's the game because it didn't go the way he wanted.
Luke Bilberry:He's having this hard moment. Everyone's left and then he ends up he's like, man, I miss I miss mom. I I miss her. And so this idea of comfort, this idea of love that would have been there to, you know, put put her arm around him and hold him tight and make him feel safe and loved and secure. And it's on that moment, we're literally standing on the field.
Luke Bilberry:And I said, hey, buddy, here's what we know. What is this thing? And we're standing right at home plate. And all I know is this. When you come home, you're safe.
Luke Bilberry:We'll figure this out together. And it's that moment that God is like teaching me. And I'm having a process how to lead and serve my son at the same time. Like, this is the reality that when we run to the father, when we run to him, we are safe and secure no matter what comes, right? No matter what and that's what the story of the prodigal
Jackie VanDyke:son That's
Luke Bilberry:the prodigal. Luke 15, there's that passage, that line that just erects me every time, is when the son came to himself, When he remembered who he was, that's when the story changes. Right? I'd love for you guys to think through the prodigal son parable and the story and how we how we, as Chapel Point, how do we need to interact with this? What would you encourage us with as you think about the ladies that you get to lead and some of the stories that that you what do they need to hear?
Luke Bilberry:And thinking about the men in our church, what do we need to hear when we think about the story of the prodigal son when it comes to knowing the father? Because what I'm actually hearing you guys say is this whole entire conversation is an invitation to know God the Father. It is an invitation to know Him in His fullness. And it's a beautiful gift. Encourage us, how can we approach this as men, as women, as a church family to come back to ourselves and come back home?
Jackie VanDyke:I think of the prodigal when I look at the father and the prodigal goes to him and says, I want the inheritance. I'm going go take off. And he allows him that choice. He doesn't restrict him and make him do what is right. So, he lets him go.
Jackie VanDyke:And I think how that must have grieved a father's heart to know that my kid's off there doing who knows what and has disrespected me in that way. And yet, he lets him go. So, I think that's instructive about the father's heart.
Luke Bilberry:He's not forcing love or obedience or cooperation
Jackie VanDyke:in Yeah. It's got to be freely given to be loved, right? Then that
Luke Bilberry:Hang on. Say that again. That was so good, Jackie. Say it again.
Jackie VanDyke:It's got to be freely given to be loved.
Luke Bilberry:It's good.
Jim Jeffery:It's good.
Jackie VanDyke:Yeah. Make somebody love you. And then when he comes to himself, and he's off there thinking, What have I done? I have this loving father at home with this wonderful home. And maybe just maybe he'll take me back.
Jackie VanDyke:And he had to have known enough of his father's heart to be like, I'm going back. And I love the father picks up his robes and runs. I mean, that pursuit of like, I'm meeting you. I'm not waiting until you get here and it's all shameful and fall on your face in front of me. It's like, no, I'm going after you.
Jackie VanDyke:The minute I see you And the moment he turned, the father was like, Okay, now we've got something to work with. And he runs after him. Just the welcoming back. And even with the other brother, can go into that. I mean, there's an invitation there too to this legalistic, I've got it all together brother who is also lost.
Jackie VanDyke:But yeah, I just love the picture of him coming back and knowing his unworthiness in that total humility. And the father's like, No, no, no. You are my son. And put the ring on your finger. Put the robe on.
Jackie VanDyke:Let's throw a party. Come on. Let's get everybody together. And that's our father.
Jim Jeffery:The fascinating thing about that story, Jack, as you're talking about it there, is that the occasion of the three stories that Jesus tells, you have a lost sheep, lost coin, lost son, is the Pharisees accusing Jesus of being a friend of sinners. And Jesus in each of those stories saying, I want you to know when a sinner repents, when a sinner comes back to me, we throw a party in heaven. We celebrate in heaven over that. And yet, the last story is so much more full. Warren Wirsby, I love what he said.
Jim Jeffery:He said, in the prodigal son, when he left, he said, Give me. When he comes back, he says, Make me. Make me your son. And if we go to our Heavenly Father like he's this cosmic vending machine or Santa Claus, Give me, give me, give me, then we don't understand what the relationship is all about. But when we come to the Father and say, make me, make me like you, restore the image, make me.
Jim Jeffery:And yet that father, theological liberals have attacked the story of the prodigal son by saying, this is forgiveness with no sacrifice. And they're wrong. Because according to Old Testament law, that son should have been death by stoning when he came back because he had dishonored his father, in essence saying, I wish you were dead. That's really what he was saying. I want my inheritance.
Jim Jeffery:I don't care about you. And so he had so dishonored his father according to the Old Testament law, it's death by stoning. When the father runs to him, this is not just an emotional response. The father's running to him, wrapping him in his arms saying, You're throw stones, you gotta kill me. It is substitution and sacrifice that's being shown there.
Jim Jeffery:And the father runs to him, and the son has his speech all prepared. He can't get out his mouth and father says, Hey, get the robe, new shoes, ring on finger, celebration, because this is my heart. He is repentant and he's humble. He's humble and he's repentant. And so, we're going to throw a party.
Jim Jeffery:And the other brother, he's the Pharisee.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Jim Jeffery:It's like in your face, you you you religious people here don't know my father. Mhmm. You don't know my father, which is why we say around here all the time, God can redeem anybody from anything at any time.
Jackie VanDyke:That's right.
Jim Jeffery:I got a guy in my small group, you know him, my friend Jimmy. Jimmy grew up in a really rough home, and he killed the guy and went to jail for it. But he came to know the father of the prodigal son. And he is the most tender hearted, gentle soul today because he knows the father's heart.
Luke Bilberry:Right. It's the exact verse. For this was my son was dead and he is alive. Again, he was lost and found. And they began to celebrate.
Jackie VanDyke:And my heart breaks for people, women mostly, who I talk to who carry guilt and shame, and that prevents them from coming to the Father. Because you read that and it's like, this is who the Father is. You don't have to carry that. You can leave that in the far off country. He's taking care of that.
Jackie VanDyke:And I think that can prevent us sometimes from having that relationship with a father because we want to carry all that back and we want to do something, make me your slave, I'll do stuff for you. When he's like, no, that's forgiven. You are my son, you are my beloved daughter, and and you get to come in and enjoy the party.
Luke Bilberry:Right. It's kind of again, silly stories with Luke here reminds me of my dad. The thing he wanted most was his family to be in the house together around the table. Like, you I would it was so funny to, like, watch him, like, all a sudden, he would just sit back. He'd get quiet, and everyone's just doing their own thing, and they're just talking.
Luke Bilberry:But in that moment, could see there's this, like, this is how it should be this deep piece who my dad is is like, these are my people. And that's what we're seeing. Right? Like, this is imagine the church, these redeemed people getting together around a table, that's worship. That honors the father.
Luke Bilberry:Like, this is I've given my life. I've sacrificed. I've stepped in and I've taken the place of your brokenness and your sin.
Jackie VanDyke:I took the shame.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. I took the shame. I took the stones that were yours, but here we are around the table and just imagine the father. Like, that's what I think about when we gather on Sunday mornings as a church as you gather in conversations around the tables. Man, are we putting a smile on our father's face to see his children all together?
Luke Bilberry:And that stuff like it strikes like a deep emotional chord because I think that's that image, right, that we're we're getting to reflect back, like, this is what the father wants for us. As we pursue him, we begin to see it demonstrated in our lives. What would you guys say, kind of as a way of closing and maybe a way of blessing, what would you say, Jackie, to the the to the person who's struggling with that guilt and that shame? Help me take some steps to not live in the far country. And pastor Jim, a similar blessing.
Luke Bilberry:If if you are don't understand the holiness and the and the awe and wonder of who our God is, what what are some things that I can do to take some steps to live in this beautiful tension and know God the father as holy and other than and yet deeply loving, personal? What what would be some prayers and and a blessing that you would say for us as a church family?
Jackie VanDyke:I would say you have you have a father who deeply, deeply loves you, who created you in his own image, who wants nothing more than to have relationship with you, and so has pursued you to the extent where he sent his own son to die, to take all that guilt, to take all that shame. And all that is needed is to come in faith by grace and lay that all down, submit your life, surrender it all. And all of that love that Moses got to see, that glory and all of those attributes, that steadfast love, is ours. It's given as a gift. His arms are wide open.
Jackie VanDyke:And he's just asking us to come crawl up in Abba Father's lap and enjoy all the goodness that he has prepared for us.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, I love it. What about you Pastor
Jim Jeffery:Jim? Two thoughts that kind of converged for me. One, if you want to really know the attributes of God, take a long look at the cross. Because every attribute of God intersects at the cross. The holiness of God and the mercy of God.
Jim Jeffery:The wrath of God and the grace of God. The justice of God and the love of God. The power of God and this abundant compassion of God. Every characteristic of God intersects on the cross. Take a long look at the cross and know that was your guilt, that was your shame, that's what you deserved.
Jim Jeffery:There's a reason I have that picture of the prodigal son, Rembrandt's rendition of that, as the one thing for twenty five years that's been in my office. Because I look at it and say, that's my heavenly father, that's me. But also able to point other people and say, hey, have you seen this picture? That's my God. That's you.
Jim Jeffery:This is how we come to God. And he restores and he forgives. I remember when our daughter Rachel, who's now in her 40s, she was born in Sandusky, Ohio. And I remember we had the downstairs area, we had a tri level house. Out of the corner of my eye, was reading the newspaper and out of the corner of my eye, could see her bringing one of those wooden puzzles.
Jim Jeffery:And she had all the pieces stacked one on top of the other. And she's carrying this. She's this toddler. She's carrying this up the stairs. And she comes up to the stairs and she stands in front of me and sort of waits for me to look.
Jim Jeffery:And I've been watching the whole time. And she just says one word, help. And I think, I need to come to my father in the pieces of my life, the brokenness of my life, just say, God help. Know that he's been watching all the time. That he knows me.
Jim Jeffery:He knows my heart. He knows my mind. He knows my experience. And he's willing to come to my help.
Luke Bilberry:I love that. I love that. Well, wanna thank you guys for the conversation around this. And I think it's one of those, hopefully, even as you hear us talk, it's one of these things as we begin to explore who God is, begins to pull at our heart because at the end of the day, this is the longing for us is to be in the father's house. And so that's our prayer for you as you listen to this, as you dive into some of the content, that we're talking about, as you're hopefully talking about this with other folks, that you would know God in a deep, intimate, life giving way, and he is ready and willing for you to receive that love and that mercy and grace and would love to for you to know and walk in that.
Luke Bilberry:And so if you have any questions, wanna know more, make sure you head to our website and go to the Core Podcast. You can put any questions that you have and hopefully we get to answer those. Just know we love you and may you encounter the grace of the heavenly father.