Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

What keeps us from being more social? Nick Epley calls it a “mind-reading mistake.”
We all think about what others think, particularly what they think about us. The problem, says Nick Epley, is that we’re almost always wrong.
Epley is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and author of A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection. What keeps people from engaging authentically, connecting deeply, and enjoying a meaningful social life? It comes down to an error of social cognition, “A mind-reading mistake,” Epley says. “If I don't think you want to talk to me, I won't try. And I'll never find out that I'm wrong about that.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Epley and host Matt Abrahams explore why we hold ourselves back from meaningful conversation, and what happens when we don’t. From taking an interest in others to sharing more freely about ourselves, Epley shares strategies for being a little more social — and making your life considerably better as a result.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (01:31) - Problems with Body Language
  • (04:15) - Perspective Getting
  • (07:14) - Asking Better Questions
  • (08:41) - Moving Beyond Small Talk
  • (10:13) - Why We Hold Back
  • (11:33) - Advice For Introverts
  • (15:17) - A Little More Social
  • (18:34) - The Final Three Questions
  • (24:45) - Conclusion

Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Nick Epley
Behavioral Scientist | Professor at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business | Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: One of the biggest
barriers to interpersonal communication

is our concern that people aren't
interested in what we have to say.

If we're just a little bit more
social, we can dramatically change

the impact of our communication.

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I look forward to
learning from Nick Epley.

Nick is a professor of behavioral science
at the University of Chicago Booth School

of Business, where he also directs the
Roman Family Center for Decision Research.

Nick's research focuses on how people make
inferences about the minds of others and

why we routinely misunderstand each other.

His first book is called Mindwise:
How We Understand What Others Think,

Believe, Feel, and Want, and his
latest book is A Little More Social:

How Small Choices Create Unexpected
Happiness, Health, and Connection.

Welcome, Nick.

I am so excited to chat with you.

You have the distinction of being the
person most cited by other guests,

from Charles Duhigg to Katy Milkman
to Laurie Santos, and I am so glad to

finally get a chance to talk to you.

Thanks for being here.

Nick Epley: Yeah.

Thank you.

That is very flattering.

And you should be flattered to know
that one of your recent guests, Sonja

Lyubomirsky, also said, who she does
a lot of podcasts, said this was

one of the favorite that she'd done.

Matt Abrahams: Well,
that's very kind of Sonja.

We've known each other a long time,
and we had a great conversation.

So shall we get started?

Nick Epley: Yes, absolutely.

Matt Abrahams: So in your book
Mindwise, you discuss how we are

fundamentally overconfident in our
ability to read other people's minds.

We often rely on what you call
outside perspective, things like

the way people use their bodies,
facial expressions, to really

figure out what someone is thinking.

Why is this the wrong approach?

Why are we ineffective, and how
can we get better using what

you call the inside perspective?

Nick Epley: So the thing that
really makes us stand out on the

planet as a species, at least from
a psychologist's perspective, is our

ability to think about other people.

Much of our neural capacity here, this
fat part of our brain up above our

eyes, is dedicated to social cognition,
thinking about other thinking people.

The problem is that other people's minds
are the most complicated things you will

ever think about, and so we're imperfect.

We're imperfect, though,
in predictable ways.

One question we can then ask is, how do
we overcome these mistakes that we make?

One common approach is to just try to pay
attention to other people's body language.

The problem we find with that, or that
many psychologists find with that,

is that bodies can often mislead.

It's easy to lie to people
or, or deceive other people in

ways that are hard to detect.

We're often barely above chance,
for instance, at being able to

detect whether somebody is telling
us the truth or lying to us.

So body language doesn't work actually
that well, or reading body language.

Sometimes we can try to put
ourselves in other people's shoes.

We find in our research that doesn't
actually increase accuracy a whole bunch.

You're still playing with things
that are in your own head.

You're not gaining new insight.

Perspective taking isn't
quite the magical elixir for

understanding that we might imagine.

The only way that we have found for
people to understand the minds of

other people better is to, wait for
it, ask them what they are thinking.

Now, I remember when we started
running these experiments, that is, I

actually have to get on your inside.

I have to ask you what you're thinking.

To be good at understanding
another person, you have to become

a good journalist, it turns out.

A good interrogator.

When we first started running these
experiments in my lab, we referred

to these as the stupid studies,
that obviously asking somebody what

they think is gonna give you more
insight into what's on their mind.

But what was interesting to us was
that people didn't seem to know

that they were actually using a good
strategy when they were using it.

So we had people engaging in perspective
taking, thought they were doing just

as well, just as accurate understanding
the mind of another person as people

who were directly asking another person
what they thought about something.

And that was what was interesting to us.

Using this most effective strategy
from people's own perspectives

didn't seem to be something that
they are, were aware was actually

helping them out as much as it was.

Matt Abrahams: I want to dive deeper
into this notion of, you said perspective

taking doesn't really work, and I
know you've done a lot of work on

what you call perspective getting.

Clearly, asking is one way to
get another person's perspective.

Can you define what you mean by
perspective getting, and what are

some tools that we can use, especially
in high-stake situations where

reading the room and understanding
somebody else's likely response

could be really helpful to us?

Nick Epley: All we mean by
perspective getting is just

an analog to the psychological
process of perspective taking.

And we didn't mean anything magical
by it when we came up with the term.

In fact, it's hardly the kind
of thing that even needs a term.

Psychologists for decades have been
studying what happens when we do this

little bit of mental gymnastics to move
from my perspective to yours, to try

to see things from your point of view,
try to understand things from your

perspective, recognizing that you might
see the world differently than I do.

To be clear, doing that does a lot
of things psychologically for us.

It makes me feel more similar to you.

It makes me feel more empathy towards you.

It makes me feel like I understand
you better when I do this.

The problem is, when I actually ask
people to predict what you're thinking

and you write down what you're actually
thinking, people, perspective taking

doesn't actually make people, we found
in a series of 25 experiments, doesn't

actually make people more accurate.

If anything, it made
people a little bit worse.

So by perspective getting, all we
mean is simply asking other people

questions directly about what
they might think about something.

In a negotiation, you could ask somebody
directly, "Look, I really wanna understand

what you want in this situation, what your
position is." You might be worried that

they might not tell you, but you can ask.

You might wanna know, for instance,
what your spouse wants for

Christmas or for a birthday, right?

Instead of guessing, it turns out the
best way to know is to ask them, and they

tend to be just as happy getting the gift
that they wanted when you ask them as

when you guessed and got the wrong one.

They're not so happy about that.

So what can you do in a
high-stakes situation?

I think the big thing, one thing
we're finding out in recent

research, is that people are often
reluctant to ask direct questions.

They feel like it's being too nosy,
it's being impolite, it's being

intrusive, and so they're reluctant
to ask the questions they would need

to actually understand another person.

In our research, we find that people think
it's gonna be awkward to ask somebody a

direct question about what they believe
about some topic, particularly if it's a

personally relevant or meaningful topic.

But people who are asked those questions,
even sensitive ones, so this is work

by Einav Hart and Maurice Schweitzer,
for instance, they find that people

think it's gonna be much more awkward
to ask somebody direct questions than

the person actually finds it to be.

When you ask somebody a direct
question, they typically don't

mind as much as you would guess.

So I think that's the big thing.

In a high-stakes situation, just ask the
question you want to know the answer to.

Matt Abrahams: I'm hearing a theme
that asking is very important.

So my question for you is,
what makes for a good question?

On the show, when people have said
open questions better than closed

questions, do you have recommendations
for what are questions that can give you

insight perhaps over other questions?

Nick Epley: So one of the things that I'm
most interested about in my work is trying

to understand why we don't do the social
things that are necessarily good for us,

why we don't communicate in the ways that
would otherwise be good for us, creating

connections with other people, allowing
us to understand them better, and so on.

What are the barriers that
keep us from doing it?

And a big one is just misunderstanding
how other people will respond.

So for me, the best kinds of questions
to ask somebody are the meaningful

ones, meaningful questions, deep
questions that ask about somebody's

thoughts or their beliefs or
their attitudes or their feelings.

In conversation, these are the kinds
of things we often wanna be talking

about with somebody, and yet these
are also the things that we're

often reluctant to ask people about.

And so we spend a lot of time in
conversation, say, or even when

communicating with other people,
talking about shallow, superficial

things that don't really enable
understanding, don't really enable as

much understanding as it could, and don't
allow us to connect with other people

as meaningfully as we otherwise could.

So for me, the questions that are
of most interest to ask are the deep

ones, and the ones that we're often
overly reluctant to ask people about.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

And you can think about some
of those in advance, right?

You can stockpile some questions.

We've talked with Alison Wood Brooks
and others about how we can leverage

questions to build more connection,
trust, and intimacy with people.

Do you have advice or guidance
on how to move from those shallow

conversations into more meaningful ones?

I might feel very uncomfortable
starting by asking you a very

deep question right off the bat.

How do we migrate from the more
shallow to the deeper questions?

Nick Epley: Much faster
than you think you can.

You might not ask that your
first question, but I usually can

get to something meaningful by
question number two, if I'm trying.

And I think that's a thing that people
really misunderstand in conversation.

Usually, that transition for me moves from
talking about something or asking about

something early on that's on the outside
of a person, "What do you do for a living?

Where do you live?" to something that's
very quickly on the inside of a person.

And that often involves a shift from
asking about what might be happening to

asking about why or some deeper meaning.

So, you know, once I find out what you
do for a living, I can ask you, "Why, why

do you do that and not something else?"
Or I can ask what you do for a living,

and I can ask as a follow-up question,
"Is that always what you wanted to do?

Is this your dream job?

Do you have your dream job right now?"
And if they say yes, then you can now

ask, "Why is that your dream job?" And
if they say no, you can ask, "Well,

what is your dream job?" And already
there, on like the third question,

I've gotten to somebody's dreams.

It just doesn't take that long.

Matt Abrahams: I like that distinction
of going from what to why, and it's

really important to put an exclamation
point at the end of what you said, is

that while we feel it might be awkward,
in actuality it's not that awkward.

Nick Epley: What we found was creating
the barrier, why people didn't wanna

talk, was that people didn't think that
others were interested in talking to them.

And that's also what keeps people
from having the deep, meaningful

kind of conversations we'd like
to be having with each other, too.

We find that people think that
others aren't gonna care about the

stuff that they have to share, the
meaningful things that they would

have to share in conversation, the
sense that other people don't want to

be bothered with this or wouldn't be
interested in having this conversation,

and turns out we're off about that.

Matt Abrahams: Wow.

So it's our fear that the other person
just doesn't care or wanna be burdened

with our stuff is what gets in the way.

Nick Epley: It's not that
we misunderstand ourselves.

We know in our experiments people
recognize that if you had a conversation

with somebody, if you shared something
meaningful about yourself, people would

enjoy their experience more if they
were in a conversation than if they

were being ignored by other people.

But what keeps them from doing it is a
social cognition error, a mind-reading

mistake, is that I think you don't
wanna talk to me, and of course,

if I don't think you wanna talk
to me, I won't try, and I'll never

find out that I'm wrong about that.

Matt Abrahams: And your research
shows that when you do actually

initiate the conversation, there
are wonderful benefits from it.

People vary.

A lot of the work I have done is
with people who are highly anxious in

communicating, introverts, extroverts.

How can somebody who might be nervous,
a non-native speaker, for example, or

somebody who's just extremely shy or
introverted, how do you encourage them to

take advantage of this wonderful benefit
of talking to people and reaching out?

Nick Epley: So I empathize with this
very much because I was one time there.

That is, I now can stand up in front
of 1,000 people without any trouble

and give a speech, and we're academics.

We do this for a living.

When I was in graduate school, I
was horrified by the thought of

standing up and presenting in public.

I was horrified about the thought of
taking questions, so I very much can

empathize with the challenges that
come from opening up and reaching out.

The long-run answer is that you overcome
mistaken fears through practice.

That's it, is you learn that these are
mistaken by exposing yourself to them

and learning the truth of the matter.

In fact, cognitive behavioral therapists,
psychologists who treat clinical

levels of anxiety, the way they do this
is through what's known as exposure

therapy, where they put you in the very
situation that you are anxious about.

Now, exposure therapy doesn't work for
everything, but if your concern is about

talking to people, as social stuff,
those anxieties tend to be misplaced.

So putting yourself in those
situations is the step that you

need to calibrate your beliefs.

Now, how do you do that?

What I recommend to people is
doing a choice audit of your day.

Just think over the course of
your day, like your day tomorrow.

And, you know, you might
think about a moment where you

could engage with somebody.

It'd be easy.

It wouldn't be hard, right?

Where you could reach out
and engage with somebody.

It wouldn't take a lot of time, wouldn't
take a lot of effort, wouldn't take

a lot of energy, and start there.

Sometimes these can be really simple
things, like when I enter the University

of Chicago Business School where I work,
the Harper Center here, I've got about

a 200-yard walk up to my office where
I'm standing right now, and I have taken

on as a habit making that a hello walk.

So I've done this very deliberately.

Like, I had this realization one
morning that I kind of walk into the

office, head down, on my way, not
wanting to bother anybody, and I decided

to do something different, right?

There was a moment where I was
choosing to ignore people, and

I could do something different.

So now when I come in, I
have my head up, I'm smiling.

Now, that seems small.

It is small.

A lot of these things are small.

Saying hello to somebody
on the train one morning.

You're there.

You're not doing anything anyway.

It's easy, relatively speaking.

It's not particularly hard.

It's not risky, and
that's the place to start.

What we're talking about
here is a behavior change.

The way you change behavior over the
long run is you don't do it all at once.

You're not gonna overcome
anxiety all at once.

It's, you don't move a mountain by
pushing the whole thing at one time.

You move a mountain shovel
by shovel, bit by bit.

And so my advice to folks
who are nervous about this is

you don't have to believe me.

You don't have to believe our data.

You can go out and test this yourself,
and my suggestion is to start small.

Pick a little thing you
can do that's pretty easy.

Give somebody a compliment.

Say hello to somebody in the morning.

Do it multiple times so you get some
data, and that's where you start.

Matt Abrahams: So many things there that
you said are so valuable and insightful.

One, I would never have believed that
you were shy and nervous about speaking.

You come off as quite the
extrovert and very comfortable.

This idea of doing a choice audit to
think about where those opportunities

are for those little experiments
that you're talking about, and I am

certainly going to try, and I encourage
everybody listening to try, a hello

walk and see what happens as we go.

Your new book is called
A Little More Social.

It's not be social.

It's not jump into the deep end of social.

Talk to me about the thesis
of A Little More Social.

Tell me a little bit more
about why you used a little

bit more and what it's about.

Nick Epley: The book is trying to
reconcile what seems like a fundamental

paradox that sits right at the
core of human life to me, which is

that we're highly social animals.

We're made happier and
healthier by reaching out and

connecting with other people.

And yet that choice to reach out and
engage with somebody, to approach them, or

to hold back and avoid them, that dynamic
shows up, that choice shows up in so

many different parts of our lives, right?

So do I talk with a stranger?

Do I type to them or pick up
the phone and call them, right?

Once I'm talking, do I go deep or do
I stay in the shallow end of the pool?

I've got a kind thought, do I share it?

I feel grateful to
somebody, do I express it?

I need help, do I ask for it?

I've got this thing about myself that
I'd like to share with my partner,

but I'm a little nervous about being
honest, so I keep my true self to myself.

Over and over again, there are these
opportunities we have to reach out

and engage with others in positive,
meaningful ways that make our lives better

that we're often nervous about doing.

And what we find just over and over
and over and over again is that

avoidance voice, that, that voice we
have on our shoulder that's telling

us, "They're not gonna like that.
This is gonna be bad. I shouldn't

do this," is a little too strong.

And people consistently underestimate
how positively these interactions

are going to go, and as a result, I
think, are overly reluctant to reach

out and engage with other people.

Now, we're not idiots.

Nobody is confused that reaching out
and expressing gratitude to your old

high school band director, which I did
not long ago, Craig Aune is his name,

one of the best teachers that I've ever
seen in my life, nobody's confused that

doing that is gonna be negative, right?

We can distinguish between a pat on
the back and a punch in the face.

This, we're not confused
about this, right?

But what we do find is that even when
we think it's gonna be a little good,

we still underestimate how positive
these things are likely to be.

We're a little bit off.

So our data don't suggest you should go
out to talk to everybody all the time.

You got things to do, right?

They don't suggest you should dive into
the deep end of the conversation pool

with everybody all the time or spend
your life writing gratitude letters.

That's not what it suggests.

It suggests that your estimate, your
belief about how this social interaction,

this attempt to reach out and engage
with somebody's gonna go, is off a bit.

And all of life is a gamble.

All of life's a gamble on the
outcomes our, of our decisions and

our choices, and our data suggests
that we're a little off about that.

And as a result, there are probably
lots of social interactions

that you could have, but you're
mistakenly choosing not to have.

And finding those decision points
where, you know, that avoidance voice

is just a little too strong in your
life, that's the margin you have for

improving it, for making your life better.

And again, the title of the book comes
from what I think is the real implication

of our work, not that you should be a
nonstop extrovert talking to other people

all the time, but that there are choices
you're making to avoid people that are

often mistaken, and that you could be a
little bit more social and it would make

your life probably considerably better.

Matt Abrahams: I am absolutely
convinced, and as somebody who's

read the book, you do a great job of
helping articulate that point of view.

You know, Nick, I knew this was gonna be
wonderful because everybody, your resume

came to me as, "Oh, my goodness, it's
gonna be a great conversation." I don't

wanna bring it to an end, but we will.

Before we end, I ask three questions,
two questions I ask everybody,

one I come up with just for you.

Are you ready for these?

Nick Epley: I'm ready.

Matt Abrahams: You teach an MBA
course called Designing a Good Life.

What is one communication-based
design flaw you see most

high-achieving people make, and
how can we change it to be better?

Nick Epley: I think a big design flaw
is people focus too much on their

competency and too little on their warmth.

What other people care about
when they interact with us,

is this person trustworthy?

Is this person honest?

Are they kind?

Are they a friend, or are
they somebody I should avoid?

We spend a lot of time thinking
about, what exactly should I say

to communicate to this person?

That's a good second thing to pay
attention to because that's what

they're paying attention to second.

But the first thing they're paying
attention to is, is this person warm?

Are they a friend?

And I think that's a mistake.

We overestimate the importance
of competency, exactly what we're

communicating when we're communicating,
when really what matters a lot, first

and foremost, is, is this person warm?

Is this person trustworthy?

That's the thing to start with.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for echoing that.

In the strategic communication class
I teach, that is the very first topic

we discuss, and we talk about lead
with warmth, follow with competence,

and that can make a big difference.

Thank you for sharing.

Who's a communicator
that you admire, and why?

Nick Epley: The person who popped
into my mind, and it's possible that

it's 'cause I was just listening to
a podcast from him, is Michael Lewis.

And I think Michael Lewis is
amazing as a communicator because

he has this stroke of genius that
makes him seem not like a genius.

And I think that's where true genius sits.

So a really good communicator, and
I think this is true in academia as

well, is somebody who can take really
complicated topics, like the financial

sector or Kahneman and Tversky's
research in the behavioral sciences,

and make it so simple that it feels
like you understood it already.

Like, not very hard, okay?

And Lewis is just a master, both
in writing as well as in speaking,

so he's just as good on his
podcast as he is with his books.

The other thing that Lewis does which
is great as a communicator, he's

extremely good at asking questions.

He's really good about not imposing what
he thinks on somebody else, but rather

letting the other person share their
wisdom and pulling that out of them.

He's a good perspective getter.

Really good perspective getter.

And that's why he gets
the nod from me today.

Matt Abrahams: Not surprising
that you would pick somebody

who asks good questions, given
what you do in your research.

And the other notion that you started
with, I call accessibility, how you make

complex ideas accessible to somebody.

And I like that you added, "So that they
feel like they already knew it." I know

exactly what you're talking about, and
really effective communicators do that.

All right, Nick, final
question, question three.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Nick Epley: So I think the first
big one is to take an interest.

A lot of good communication is
about the mindset you take to it.

In a conversation, this is
particularly true, I think, if you're

communicating in conversation, is you
gotta take an interest in the other

person, in getting to know them.

People spend a lot of time
focusing on specific words to use

or specific sentences or phrases.

I think that will get you potentially
over the hump to start something.

But what makes for a really
good conversation is for you

to be flexible in the moment.

If I take an interest in getting
to know you, the stuff to talk

about is just gonna come up.

I'm gonna think about it
often if I start with that.

So I think being in the right
mindset, taking an interest in,

understand somebody, getting
to know them, making sure they

understand you, I think is critical.

If you're not interested, you're not gonna
teach them, you're not gonna reach them.

Second one is warmth.

We already talked about this a little bit.

Again, I think this is one thing that
people under-emphasize, and this is

suggested by the research, that what we
tend to think about when we think about

ourselves is our competency, right?

I'm gonna stand up and I'm
gonna give a speech, right?

I'm gonna, or I'm gonna speak in class, or
I'm gonna have a conversation with you, or

I'm gonna write a gratitude letter, right?

What I'm worried about, I'm not concerned
about whether I'm trustworthy or not.

I take that for granted with myself.

What I'm worried about is, what
the heck am I gonna say, right?

That's what I'm really focused on.

But what other people focus on when they
see us is, is this somebody trustworthy?

So warmth is a big one.

I think that's the second.

And then the third one,
I think, is openness.

Really good communicators
are open about themselves.

People who are willing to share
things about themselves, be

open about themselves, that
builds trust very quickly.

So a good way to really have a
deep, meaningful conversation

with somebody isn't just about
asking them meaningful questions.

It's also about being willing
to be open and share meaningful

things about yourself, right?

The fact that 20 years or so ago,
when I started my career, was

a terrified introvert, at least
when it came to standing up and

speaking, sharing that story.

I lost 20 pounds before
my first job interview.

I was so nervous.

I didn't sleep, I didn't eat for weeks.

I was terrified by this.

Being willing to be open and share
those meaningful stories allows other

people to open up with you, too,
and that's what makes for a really

good conversation and communication.

Matt Abrahams: That reciprocity there
is really important in building trust.

So the three I hear you talk about are
mindset, which drives interest and the

flexibility needed to engage, and then
that warmth rather than over-indexing

on competency, and then finally, being
open and divulge and share information.

Nick, this was fantastic.

You were so helpful in illuminating
the good work that you're doing and

helping all of us to feel better In our
communication and the challenge that you

bring to us, which is to take that step,
initiate the conversation, be a little bit

more social, and you can see the benefits.

Thank you for your time.

Nick Epley: Thank you so much, Matt.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about how to
leverage communication for deeper

relationships, listen to episode one
thirty-three with Charles Duhigg.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd
Wonder, with special thanks

to the Podium Podcast Company.

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