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"Upstream" is a podcast where lively conversation meets deep faith. Each episode, we dive into the currents of today's society, exploring important topics through a Christian lens. Whether we're discussing family values, ethical dilemmas, or personal growth, our goal is to provide insights that resonate with real life while rooted in our faith. So, grab a cup of coffee and join us as we navigate these waters, always striving to move upward and onward in our spiritual journeys. Together, let's discover how faith shapes our lives in the modern world. Tune in to "Upstream" for a fresh perspective on the things that matter most!
Transcribe Copy:
Hi, welcome to Upstream. I'm Zach Patterson here with Pastor Chet and Sherri Worrel. Good to see you guys. I'm excited for this one. Yeah. Especially after speaking about Lydia. You know, I think that talking about this particular subject is important in regards to women in ministry. Yes, absolutely. A topic that has been greatly debated. Divisive in some ways. But hopefully today we can have a good biblical perspective of how to think about women in ministry.
Yeah. And I think there's two different thoughts on this, and there seems to be no in between. There is the complementarian, and that is a theology that women cannot be leaders in the church. And that has tended to lead to almost like the Protestants do with Mary and the Catholics do with Mary. Catholics venerate Mary and the Protestants demean her. Right. And then there's the egalitarian. And that is the other theological place where they believe that women can be leaders, elders, pastors in the church. And so those two different thought processes, they seem to have developed a division in the church where I think there is a wonderful middle road that is oftentimes forgotten.
Sherry, women in ministry. You've been in ministry for over 40 years. You have led a Christian private school, been the superintendent, headmaster, founder, president, CEO. You name it, you've done it. And so I'm curious your perspective in regards to women in ministry.
Well, I'm for it.
Well, so am I. We're in the right place. The question isn't whether women should be in ministry. The question is when and where and in what way.
When, where and what way? Okay, I think those are three great questions that we probably should explore. Right. So you take. You start where you wanna start.
Well, you asked me a moment ago did I believe that women should pastor? And I answered, define pastor.
Sherry. My question was, can women be the pastor of a church? Right. And I ask you to define pastor. Excellent. You want me to define it? Sure.
I think it's important that we recognize during the Industrial revolution of the United States of America, the church adopted an organizational chart prior to even. You read books in the 1920s and 30s, right around the Great Depression time, you will read things like Brother and Sister. So and so then all of a sudden, titles began. Pastor, executive pastor. Org charts began to come a part of the church. And we began to create. We began to make gifts, titles. I believe that pastor is a gift, and I believe it's not a title. I believe that it is a gift given to both men and women. It is much like mercy is given to men and women, much like the gift of exhortation is given to men and women, much like the gift of prophecy is given to both men and women. There doesn't seem to be a gift outside of apostle. There does not seem a gift outside of apostle that was not given to both men and women. Apostle seems to be the only gift recorded in Scripture where men are named as apostles. And so, and I think that is in context with scripture as we develop that a little bit further.
So do I believe that women can have the pastoral gift? The answer is my wife does. My wife has a pastoral gift. She counsels, she cares for people, she knows scripture, she's a teacher. Now, is she the pastor of the church? Well, some would argue yes, because she's my wife, but she tells me what to do. Sorry, Andre, but is she the pastor of the church? That's where the question comes into play, Sherry?
Yeah, well, you and I have discussed this many times and we're pretty much on the exact same spot in that I think that women have gifting the array of gifting that would be very, very similar, if not identical to the array of gifting given to men. Acts 2. He's poured out his spirit on both men and women. He points it out and in various circumstances, whether it has to do with countries where you're ministering or time periods when you were ministering, those would be adjusted based on where you were. If you were a 17th century woman going to Africa, you were going to pastor churches because there were no men available to do that. Nation of Iran. Most of the pastors in Iran right now are women because men won't step up to the plate.
Time and place. Do I believe that the senior pastor of a church in our country where men are available, do I believe that they should be men? Yes, I do. And I willingly submit myself to that position. I think it's very hard to get around passages like 1 Timothy 3 when we were looking at the definition of being the husband of one wife. It's pretty tough for a woman to be the husband of one wife. I realize there are some exceptions to that, but generally speaking, from a spiritual standpoint, no.
And I need to point out with that particular scripture, Paul is talking about the elder, correct? And he makes it clear. There is a teaching elder, which we call today the pastor, the senior pastor, and there is an administrative elder, and we would call that maybe the board of directors here at Calvary Life. And so even though Paul - because I want him for our Bible people, even though he's not talking about when he uses the word bishop, even though he's not talking about a pastor, the term pastor is not found there, but he's speaking in our context, the pastor.
And I love what you're pulling out here. A lot of people, Sherry, they will say that was for Timothy because he was in Ephesus and it applied to where he was at and women were trying to take over. So we gotta be careful with that because we can pick and choose what was for the time and what's for us now. And I think it's very obvious what was for the time and what's for us now, if you understand context. But the whole of the Bible is for us all the time.
My point is that there are situations associated with scripture, applying scripture, where it's clear that God had a structure, an organization in the home, which would be an example. God has in mind a structure, an organizational idea, the head of the home, the role of the husband, the role of the wife, and so on. I think it's true in the church. I think he had a structure or organization in mind. In no way does that diminish, or let me put it this way, in no way should that diminish the activity or the opportunity to express the gifts or abilities of a woman.
I believe that I could preach with no problem. I have done so not in the confines of my church. I choose to be in a kind of church that has a senior pastor over me, and he is a gentleman, not a woman. I choose to submit to that because I think that's the biblical pattern. But does that mean I have not taken my Bible and gone places and preached God's word? No, I have.
And I would say you're a pretty great preacher.
Well, thank you. That's very nice of you. But I would say that I have done so. I was given skills and abilities that I can't take any credit for. I believe God just gave it. I tried to enhance those when he made it possible for me to do things like go to seminary, enhance certain skills and be better prepared. But in the end, I still choose, in the context of my local church, to be involved in a church that has a senior pastor that's a gentleman.
And I think the reason that you choose that is because that's what God has chosen.
Correct. And I'm okay with that structure, with that organization, and we consider it to be biblical. And it doesn't diminish my sense of who I am or what I am doing. There's a problem. And I have many opportunities because of that.
But there's the problem. We come from a puritanical base here in the United States of America. We need to remember that the original Christians here in the United States of America were the Puritan colonists that developed kind of a new form of Christianity that became very legalistic in its presentation. Where I would say that we believe where the spirit of the Lord is there's some freedom. There is freedom. And so I think I wanna start there, that we come from a very legalistic foundation as far as Christianity in the United States of America.
The problem with that is there was a diminishing of the women's role, of the woman's role in the church where some scripture was taken out of context. It's like, no, your job is be barefoot and pregnant, bear children and keep the church going and bless the little kids. And I think what's happening is a reaction to, not a response, a reaction to the diminishing of the role where you feel comfortable.
I'll give you an example. We just recently added women to our ushers. I got emails. What are women doing passing out communion? Well, I mean, where does the Bible say a woman can't? If a woman in first Corinthians, if she can prophesy in the church, and you can read it for yourself in 1 Corinthians, if she can prophesy in the church, she probably can pass the hat. Why can't she pass communion?
Yeah, Sherry's okay. And I think it's important to recognize we don't want to diminish what God thinks of women. I mean, three out of the four times that Priscilla and Aquila are mentioned in the New Testament, Priscilla's mentioned first. Priscilla is mentioned first, which is antithetical to first century writing. And if you spend a little bit of time in Acts 16, Lydia's role in her leadership and the things that God uses because of who she is and what she's done is quite amazing.
And I mentioned to you when we were talking about it that here's an opportunity for you to say to all the women in the congregation, do not allow the fact that God has an opportunity or God has an organization in a structure where the senior pastor is needing to be a gentleman. Don't allow that to restrict you in your expressions of the gifts and abilities that he's given you. Don't just go, well, if I can't be the pastor, there's nothing for me to do. Are you kidding me? More women show up to pray than men do.
Well, because more women are more spiritual than men.
And all I'm trying to say is we've gotta be careful that we don't diminish God's desire - God's desire to pour out his spirit on both men and women. And we've also got to be careful to evaluate our cultural Christianity as compared to biblical Christianity, especially in the Calvary chapel movement, because it's the Moses model, it's the elder, the board run by men, which I believe is a biblical church. I believe the pastor is male. There is a different role for male and female, but it doesn't diminish the gifts operating in the male and female. And where God is ordained for a man to be the lead pastor of a local church, it doesn't mean that a woman can't have a leadership role in the local church.
And if she submits to the Lord in her life, she's not gonna have to grapple to get an opportunity to be in ministry by the spirit of God. There will be openings everywhere if she will simply make herself available. Whether that means training or background experiences or opportunities to take. You know, I started when I went to Bible college and I realized that God wanted me to teach God's word. I started by preaching to the squirrels up in the park in Fullerton. I tell you not - I would stop on my way home from Bible college. I got my Bible and I appreciate that.
I talked to my dogs all the time.
I preached to the squirrels every single Thursday afternoon. I had more salvations. Did they send emails?
Some were surrendered for the mission field. It was an amazing thing. You can find areas and opportunities if you will open yourself up. God will use your background, use your experiences. If you quit whining about what that one thing is that he has an organization set up differently. Leave that aside for a moment and explore where it is he would use who and what you are.
Why diminish the role of 50% of your church when God uses both men and women? God, Jesus was the great women's liberator. I mean, someone came up to me about the women's suffrage movement and how they were progressive and liberal of their time. They were believers, they loved the Lord and they believed that Jesus was not someone that put down women. He was someone that lifted up women. I mean, the first evangelist was a woman. Jesus told Mary, go and tell my brethren. Mary was the first evangelist, the last at the cross, the first at the tomb, and we could go on and on. God in no way has set aside women as second class citizens. And women need to quit whining as if he has.
Well, and I would like to say to men, Deborah and Barak are not the example. Just because there wasn't a man to lead doesn't mean that was the reason that God picked Deborah. That is a theological statement. That's almost like the Roman Catholics developing purgatory. That is something that has been put in theology in regards to, well, there wasn't a man. That's why she had to lead. And they generate from that story, God has poured out his spirit, period, on both men and women. There are different roles in the pouring out of his spirit, but women have to be allowed to be able to express those gifts within the local church.
Yeah, can I. If I can just. I knew you guys were gonna have so much to say about this, but I feel like, Pastor Chet, I hear you coming from, in a sense of male perspective, saying, hey, I want a woman in my church to know that she has a place, she has value, she has gifting. She has an ability and fan the flame of those gifts, to step up and to minister and to use her gifts. Candace is our missions director. Yeah. She's under my authority. She ministers, she preaches to missionaries, she counsels, she does the role of a pastor. Cause I believe she has a pastoral gift.
That's why I tell people, don't call me pastor. That's like calling you, hey, Administrative Zach, like, or, hey, Mercy Zach - you have gifts. Right. No one does that, but they call me pastor. Give me a title to recognize me for my gifts. And I think we need to realize these are gifts of the Spirit given to both men and women. And men are to lead the church. But that does not put down women from operating in their gifts and skills, their gifts here at Calvary Life.
Yeah. And Sherry, I would also say, I hear you saying, hey, the fact that you've been given the gift does still have some parameters. And so learning how to operate within that is important because I think, you know, Pastor Chet, if you said, hey, yes, but, you know, not this. And it starts to become this thing that's oppressive. And I think that's something that's been present in the church. And whether it's been done right or wrongly, it's something that I've heard women trying to navigate. And it's like, okay, well, but I have this gift and now I can't use it. And so I hear in the conversation, hey, use your gifts and step up and be used. But also, it's okay. It's okay that maybe the answer is not yes for every single situation and venue. And Sherry, you're a woman with a lot of gifting that you're using within what you believe. The conviction you have of, hey, this is what I believe the Bible says about how the local church is structured and what my role looks like in that. And it seems like you still feel like, hey, I have freedom to operate in the gifts that God has given me, even though I say, well, I'm not a senior pastor and I'm not going to lead the church, I'm gonna submit myself.
And that takes me back to my original question, Calvary Life. Because of what we believe, we would not send out a woman to plant a church. We would send out a husband, a father, a man to go plant a church because that was what we believe is the biblical model. So would say, well, you're complementarian. I would say, yes, we are complementarian. But we believe that God has poured out his spirit on women and they need to fan the flame of their gifts here at Calvary Life for sure.
Amen. Amen. Thank you, guys. A difficult topic. Very well navigated.
Well, before we go, I do have to say one more thing. I love Lydia and I'm glad that we have this conversation. And I love the fact that her and her whole household were saved. This incredible businesswoman, think of what she did. She goes home and she goes, hey, I came to Jesus. Every one of you. Now you're getting saved. Like, I mean, this is. She's just newly saved. She's an incredible businesswoman. And she persuaded - that word that we talked about earlier. She persuaded Paul and Silas, Luke, Timothy to stay with her. She had a gift of persuasion. I guarantee God used her as an evangelist in Philippi. You need to come to Jesus. You need to come to Jesus. I'll sell you my purple garment. But you've got to come to Jesus first. I mean, just imagine the gift of evangelism - the church at Philippi came out of her living room. It was Paul's favorite
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