You are the story / with Joseph Baum from Maniac)

Joe grew up without a television and then went to film school. That paradox is where this one starts, and it goes further than I expected.

Joe co-runs Maniac with two friends from film school. The three of them started it together during COVID and run it as equals. Before that he was a student at Regent when eight professors got terminated overnight. He and his friends borrowed camcorders from the marketing office, turned an empty dorm room into an interview studio, recorded students all night, and papered the campus with posters that were just a big white 8 and a QR code. They almost got expelled. A couple of those professors kept their jobs.

We spend a while on westerns. High Noon. Unforgiven. The scene in 3:10 to Yuma with Christian Bale and his son that is the entire reason you watch the movie.

Then it turns into the question I actually wanted to ask him. How do you stay yourself in a marketplace that has to put a price on the thing you love?

I love how Joe thinks about storytelling. You don't write stories, you are the story. The business is just a harder canvas, and the way you handle fear or courage is the thing you're really making.

We also get into partnership, the loneliness a lot of creatives are living in, why the church model in the West is buckling, and a Scottish pig farmer named John Brown who had a speech impediment and taught the neighborhood kids in his barn anyway.

Connect with Jonathan:

• Instagram: @jonathandavidray
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathandavidray/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jonathandavidray

If you're a creative service provider who's tired of being talented and stuck, check out Wealthy Creatives Coaching → https://wealthycreatives.co/

Chapters:

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan David Ray

Jonathan David Ray is a business coach for creative entrepreneurs and the founder of Acadia OS. He helps videographers, photographers, musicians, designers, coaches, and course creators build businesses optimized for money, margin, and meaning.

What is Wealthy Creatives Podcast?

Most creatives didn't start their business to burn out.

Wealthy Creatives is a conversation with videographers, photographers, designers, musicians, and creative service providers who are building businesses that actually give them their lives back.

Hosted by Jonathan David Ray — a musician, creative director, and business coach who's spent 21 years in the trenches — each episode explores what it really means to be wealthy as a creative: not just financially, but in inspiration, margin, freedom, and the kind of work that makes you come alive. Expect honest conversations about finding inspiration to create your best work, pricing your work, building a client base that values your craft, and living a creative life as an entrepreneur you don't need a vacation from. If you're a creative who's tired of being talented and broke, this is your show.

00:00:10 @jonathandavidray
Since you and I are still getting to know each other, like we've, this is our what third conversation? Yeah, I would love to just get to know like a little bit about you and just give me like the the flyby of how you like even got into the work you're doing, like how you went from from film to working in a brand agency. Like, I would just love to hear the the meta arc of your yeah of your story.

00:00:33 Joseph
I would too. I don't think about that a lot. I will say it's there's some there's some like bizarre like paradox in my story a little bit because I grew up without television, okay, and then I went to film school.

00:00:49 @jonathandavidray
What made you want to go to film school?

00:00:51 Joseph
I don't know. I think like I have a tremendous appetite for story. I always have. Yeah. Like. You know, we would see one movie per week usually, and it was at my grandparents' house. It was usually like an old John Wayne western or something, and I would just lock in. Yeah, like I couldn't help it. Yeah, and I'm still that way. Like if someone starts telling a story, like I can't. You're in. Yeah, I can't pull myself away from that. Unless it's that we didn't go to the moon. No, I'm here for it. I just don't believe it. You're still not here for it. I get like a Quiet Man. It's true either. Oh no, so.

00:01:27 Joseph
So yeah, I think a lot about like that leap itself because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Like I wasn't, you know, raised on like the the literature of film, but then I was drawn to it, and I think it like story is the common denominator. Yeah. So I'll tell you a quick a quick little anecdote. While we were at school, I worked for the marketing department. Okay. And so we would. What school did you go to? It's called Regent University. Okay. Small private school in Virginia Beach. Is that where you grew up? Nope, grew up in Philly. Okay, yeah, but it was, you know, it wasn't LA, so it was like, and it was Christian. Okay, so I wanted to go to film, super unique, some guy. Yeah, it's just this weird little constellation of factors that led me there. But yeah, so worked in the marketing department, and then one year, eight beloved professors. This small student body. They actually have a pretty substantial grad program, but the undergrad program was brand new.

00:02:27 Joseph
And so there were eight really well liked professors that were just mysteriously terminated, and all the students received like this weird message in our inbox. It was towards it was almost graduation. I wasn't graduating, but it was you know spring semester.

00:02:42 @jonathandavidray
At the same time

00:02:43 Joseph
Yeah, and there was some bizarre explanation, like difference of perspective or whatever. But all the students were upset because these were like our favorite people. Yeah, and so we went and got. All of our camcorder equipment from the marketing office. This was like pre—you know, everyone's got a camera. Like this, it wasn't the case in two thousand ten, whenever that was. And we went to an unoccupied dorm room and we set up a little makeshift studio. And there was a line down the hall, hundreds of kids from the student body, and we recorded interviews all night about the like my relationship with these, yeah, with these professors' impact.

00:03:26 Joseph
We stood up a quick website. We printed posters with just a big eight in like white Helvetica and a QR code, like really stark, simple, and we put them everywhere, all over the campus. That's a great marketing campaign. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this—I mean, were film students, but we just were upset. Yeah. And so we cut together this. I mean, it was pretty good. I don't have the video anymore, but we made this little video, and it was like this emotional appeal to like reconsider. Yeah. To the you know the leadership of the school, and on the website there were just contact forms for each of the professors with a CC to the president of the school's inbox. Wow! So he must have gotten hundreds of emails that night. Yeah, and I think maybe one or two of the professors were retained, but I think in that and we almost got expelled. We got in big trouble because we used school equipment to do it. How dare you! I know, but I think that experience.

00:04:24 Joseph
Sort of was like a, you know, we caught the bug. Yeah. Like, oh, this is how easy it is to stir a pot and like create some content, generate buzz, and ultimately affect change. Yeah. And so we loved that. And you kind of do that in film, anyways. Like, you go on set, you make your product, yeah. Then you've got to sell it. So you're putting together press kits, and you're like sending out invites to the premiere and trying to get like festival circuit activated. A lot of it is marketing. Yeah, and we just enjoyed that part. Yeah. So, film school is where I met my friend Tim and his would - be eventually wife Lauren. The three of us were on set. We always made stuff together.

00:05:06 @jonathandavidray
That's cool.

00:05:07 Joseph
I didn't realize you guys met all the way. We met Tim and I met day one. Like we were in the same orientation group as freshmen. That's so fun. Yeah, and so we've been making stuff together ever since with Lauren. And after school, we tried to get a feature off. Like we wrote a feature, we tried to get it funded. Couldn't do it. Yeah. And then we worked together on and off, with the goal ultimately of starting our own shop. And then COVID, you know, the great reckoning. We're like, we're we're done. Like working for the man. Like let's just open our own thing. So we did. And we're five years into that, and ups and downs, but we're still here telling stories and.

00:05:48 Joseph
Trying to help the people doing meaningful work get traction.

00:05:54 @jonathandavidray
That's awesome. Was it easy to transition to what you're doing now from wanting to do film, or did it feel like a loss? Sometimes pivots can.

00:06:06 Joseph
Be. I think at the time it probably felt like a concession. I'm. I still love film, and I'm still on set, calling action, cut, and like you know, in post production, trying to like tell really compelling stories. Um, I think the dream of writing a feature and shooting it is probably still buried in there somewhere. Yeah, I think I probably will do it at some point. Yeah, I've got a western that I've been working on for a few years. I love westerns. I know.

00:06:36 @jonathandavidray
You mentioned John Wayne early, so John Wayne's my favorite. Is he really older? I do. Marion, Wayne, dude. I've seen every single John Wayne movie. What's your favorite? The Quiet Man's number one. Sands of Iwo Jima is number two. If I had to do a western, Big Jake or I really like Rio Lobo. That's a great film.

00:07:04 Joseph
I know. I've seen that.

00:07:05 @jonathandavidray
I can't remember that one. I like yeah, True Grit. True Grit is classic. True Grit is great. It is great. I'm trying to remember the man that killed Liberty Valance too. Is a great fricking film. Yeah, some great like performances in that film too, and a very different performance from John Wayne, who like wasn't yet the like gritty frontman that he was. Yeah. Yeah, or like the hero because he's the villain that in that picture, right? That's right. And then um um, what's his name is the Jimmy Stewart. Jimmy Stewart's the protagonist. Um, but yeah, I would say those are some of my top. Oh, I love the top films. Okay, yeah, I still like honestly, the Quiet Man. I think I probably get emotional every time I see a movie because I think I really think it's a amazing story, like of rebuilding.

00:07:58 @jonathandavidray
Right, because his character comes to Ireland after killing a man in the boxing ring, and so it's like he's—it's almost like a little kid when something's really terrible happened. You want to go home, yeah. Like that is—that's his idea of home, safe place. Yeah, and so he's like the whole movie is like him rebuilding a new life and then like trying to get in touch with his history because he almost feels like a man without, like, a man apart from any anything that ties him down. So it's like he doesn't know who he is. So he goes back to the one place where he thinks I can discover who I am. Yeah, this place will tell me who I am. I think it's a really beautiful story, and I think it's also super fun. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like the fist fights, the marrying the super crazy redhead, like all all of it's just fun. Yeah. So I still I still make jokes at that movie where he first comes into town and the carriage driver picks him up and he's like there he's asking a direction.

00:08:56 @jonathandavidray
How do I get here? He said, 'See that way, go down there.' Then he said, 'Don't go that way.' So he spends all this time telling you not to go that way. There are so many great moments in that movie. Back to your western. I love westerns.

00:09:10 Joseph
Yeah, I do too. There's something about the, gosh, this is like a deeper conversation, but this sort of meta narrative of like man against environment without help. Yeah. And I think that was like crystallized in High Noon, yeah, with Gary Cooper, nineteen fifty - two. One of my favorites. Oh, yeah. But it's like the whole town runs and hides, yeah. And he's got a choice: is he gonna follow suit, or will he stand strong and like confront evil? Yeah. And all like we all know what the right response is, yeah. But it's not the easy response. And I think at its core, like that is the beautiful thing about the Western narrative: is it celebrates courage in its rawest form.

00:09:54 @jonathandavidray
A hundred percent. I also think too. There's this weird, there's this different vibe in a western where you don't really feel like a character's indestructible. Like I watch a John Wick film, and you're like, he's he's gonna beat everybody. Yep. But in a western, like there's this real sense of anybody could come out on top. I mean, you you know, in the story, the main character is probably gonna end up, but sometimes they don't. And in the the, It feels like folks are far more evenly matched between like good and evil, the protagonists and the antagonists. Like Three Ten to Yuma, it's a great. It's a remake. Yeah, it's a remake. But even in the old one, it's like this this sense of I don't know what could happen.

00:10:39 Joseph
Three Ten to Yuma is one of the great, one of the rare great modern westerns.

00:10:46 @jonathandavidray
I also would put Appaloosa in. Haven't seen Appaloosa. Oh my gosh, with Kevin Costner. You can't beat Unforgiven. A hundred percent can't beat Unforgiven. I'm trying to think what other.

00:10:59 Joseph
There's the scene at the end of 310 where his son, Christian Bale's son, you know what I'm talking about. He's just like Dad, don't do this.

00:11:08 @jonathandavidray
And yeah, and he and he tells him he's like, you go home and tell your mom that when everybody else abandoned, yeah, this this your paw, your paw, Ben Wade to the station when no one else would, and put him on.

00:11:18 Joseph
And like that's the line. That's why you watch the movie for that line. It's because, like, as a as a dad, especially, I'm getting goosebumps. But like, what's more resonant than that? Like, looking your child in the face and saying, " Like, remember this," and reclaiming his legacy because being.

00:11:34 @jonathandavidray
Wounded in the war and being poor have stripped from him any sense of being a heroic figure. Yeah, and where the story finds him in the beginning is like he is truly surviving. Yeah, both in who he thinks he is. And then, literally, in the world. Yeah, and so that moment is like a I I have the opportunity to show the world who I really am, and I want my son to see that. Who in the modern one, like his son, doesn't see him that way. Right. The entire film. Yep. Like, and it's also one of the first moments where the son feels like a kid, because the whole rest of the movie he acts like he almost has elevates himself. Like I need to be the man because my dad's not. Yeah. And that my dad's weak.

00:12:19 @jonathandavidray
In that moment, he's scared. He says, "Don't do this." And that moment is so beautiful.

00:12:26 Joseph
You watch movies for moments. Yeah, like there's usually one in a good film. Most films don't have any, but in a good film, you'll have one, maybe two or three moments that are just like, if you really sort of dissected it, like that's the reason you watch the whole thing. Yeah, it's for like that moment of like alignment with your own personal values. Yeah. And it's just undeniable. Like, what's more, what's more resonant than like, like I'm gonna do something scary because I don't want to see myself as weak. Like, I'm I'm called to like a higher identity. Yeah, and it's hard, but it's meaningful.

00:13:05 @jonathandavidray
Hundred percent. You know what I love about that movie that I'm just thinking about in the end is like Ben Wade. Like he obviously, spoiler alert, the watch the movie. He dies. He dies. Yeah, the the the dad dies. But what's super interesting is like Ben Wade had been in that, he'd gone to prison and escaped. So it's, it's there's not finality there. Like he's going to go to the prison, he's going to probably escape. So like what was really accomplished?

00:13:32 Joseph
But what I love is that something was accomplished. Well, and Christian Bale's character, whose name I can't remember, I can't remember either. Ostensibly, he's Paul. Yeah, he's Paul. He's making that decision for the sake of. Showing his son, like your your your legacy is is courage. Yes, but then the the the consequence of that is Ben Wade himself is like shook. He's changed by it. Yeah, and he's at least there's a seed planted, and he's like maybe maybe I can shed some of this cynicism. Yeah, because I just saw something real. Yeah, that I haven't seen in a long time, maybe ever.

00:14:10 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I love Nolan films because. I do every one of his films. There is a moment I can point to, and be like, "That moment was worth the movie." Yeah, personally, some people don't like his films. I think I've seen five of them in seventy millimeter. Okay, so like I'm, and I you are a cinephile. I just bought The Odyssey. I'm going to like literally every single ticket for six weeks was or five weeks.

00:14:42 @jonathandavidray
Was bought at Mall of Georgia to watch in 70 millimeter, which where I've watched, I watched Dunkirk there, Interstellar there, I watched Inception there, and Oppenheimer. I watched Oppenheimer. Yeah. And and I was like, oh my gosh, I have not been able to see this movie, and it's the first one is filmed completely in IMAX. I was so mad, and I found a 7:30 a.m. showing, where I could sit in like the golden zone of that IMAX theater, which I know because I'm like. I'm not buying. I'm not buying a ticket to sit row one, seat two. Like, and sometimes that was the only available seating at three a.m. showings. There's literally they're showing it in three thirty in the morning. Is one of the showings every single day. Wow. And so I just bought my ticket to go see it. And I'm not that hardcore. I'm seeing it tomorrow, but not in IMAX. I.

00:15:38 @jonathandavidray
I don't know. There's something about the movie theaters for me that is really magical that that I enjoy, and so I always want to be in a theater that I'm comfortable, that like the sound is nice, and like the film, the watching the film's immersive. Yeah, those three things have to exist, and if not, then I'll just catch it when it's streaming. But for this movie, I was like, yeah, I will go up to. I don't even care if I have to get a frigging hotel room the night before. I'm gonna go do it.

00:16:07 Joseph
I love that.

00:16:09 @jonathandavidray
Commitment. I love films. I love stories.

00:16:12 Joseph
Oh

00:16:13 @jonathandavidray
We could talk about this for an hour. Yeah, it sounds like that's the inspiration for you. Even like your that love, you're bringing that into your work. It's probably a differentiator for you guys too. Because maybe I don't know. I actually don't know about this. If this is in your industry, but like for me, wrote music, produced music, played music for 20 years, and there was lots of people that I worked with. That were like more tacticians when it came to their craft. Like they're like, oh, I'm just like I'm a good sound engineer because I know all the facts about frequencies and compressors and and the gear. And then there were some people that were players that were like, I just like it was math to them. But for me, it was never like that. It it was, I wouldn't even write a song without knowing what I wanted the audience or the person who's listening to experience. Yeah. And so as a result, I actually could never write about fictional things.

00:17:06 @jonathandavidray
Everything I ever wrote was grounded in something that I I knew inside and out, and even the like the sonic aspect of the song was built around like what did that what did that experience sound like if it had a sound, like everything was about translating an experience. But I would meet people that were totally different, and maybe that maybe there's like total validity in how they approach the art form, but it was so different for me I couldn't understand how some people could approach it that way. Yeah, and I would find myself like only wanting to work with people who didn't operate that way because it felt, it felt too surgical. It didn't feel like it. It didn't. It didn't have the heart that I felt in the craft. So I'm curious for you, loving story so much. Like, how does that affect your work? And do you feel like that's something that differentiates yourself in the in the space? Because I feel like now everybody's into branding. Like everybody's doing brand films. Everybody's doing story. Donald Miller has made it to where like.

00:18:01 @jonathandavidray
Anybody who has an inkling for marketing, they have the language that you're talking. But I'm wondering if, if for you, like, there's a heart element to it that is a difference.

00:18:12 Joseph
Absolutely. I mean, I think the easy answer to that is we look, we actively seek out projects that are meaningful, yeah, or that we feel are meaningful, and then we bring that energy, that like missional alignment, yeah. Because it is, it becomes surgical when you're just trying to like copy paste strategy to to you know solve a problem or convert yeah you know a prospective buyer. But if you can actually, um, like immerse yourself in the vision yeah that these people are carrying, and a lot of that is just it's like when someone is passionate about making the world better, that's contagious yeah. Like I pick up those germs immediately yeah you know yeah and.

00:18:59 Joseph
And then I get really excited, and I live in the space of what could be. I'll be sitting in a sales meeting, not listening, because I'm writing some kind of.

00:19:09 @jonathandavidray
That's why you need your partners.

00:19:11 Joseph
That's exactly right. They're there to listen. That's exactly right. So I'm surrounded by partners who speak the language of like here and now, and it's very like next steps oriented. Yeah, I'm not a next steps person. I'm like a what if person. Yeah. And so, and I think that is all driven by story. It has to be, you know. I think also like the way that I just naturally communicate in the context of business is always driven by story.

00:19:44 @jonathandavidray
Yeah. Does that answer your question? Yeah. No, it definitely does. I'm always curious. Like, so I'm I'm I'm presenting at Smalltown Creatives in August, and. I've I've been sitting like stumped thinking about what I wanted to talk about, and I've been thinking a lot recently. Like having moved into the entrepreneurial space, I think there's sometimes this tension between like the heart that we have as creatives, like what inspires us about the art form, and then almost like this separate entity of like the marketplace and the work I have to do that pays the bills. And it it seems like there can be a tug of war between that, and I'm always wondering like.

00:20:27 @jonathandavidray
How somebody stays true to the like deep love that they have, and honestly, like their design as a creative, when it comes to operating in a world where like the pace of the world is not built for creatives, the marketplace consumerism in general, capitalism in general, capitalism commoditizes something that's like deeply inspiring that you can't put a price tag on, but you have to put a price tag on. Yeah, so I'm I'm curious. Like that, those are some of the things I'm thinking about. Um, when I when I go do a keynote with them, it's like, how do you how do you protect your? Yeah, we're getting all the way down. Yeah, man. I mean, like I think about that for me. Um, how do I protect the parts of me that are uniquely designed to be who I am, and um, and take that into, the like.

00:21:18 @jonathandavidray
The capitalist world I live in, where I'm building a business, but I don't build it at the sacrifice of the things that make me tick. And so I'm always curious how somebody's translating that part of themselves. Is it either a loss? Is it a gain? Is it like I do it differently than other people? I'm not articulating myself well, but no.

00:21:39 Joseph
You are. I feel exactly what you're saying. I can take a swing at it, but this isn't something that I like think about. Take a swing. I think there's this notion for artists, like the starving artist, and and this notion says when you are producing your art, you're doing it for its own sake, yeah, as a means of self-expression, yeah, and that's the end of the sentence. But I don't think that's a great way to end that sentence. There has to be a deeper reason beyond self-expression. Self-expression is it's like that's a dead end, yeah. You know, anything self-expression, then yeah. I think what undergirds all of it.

00:22:16 Joseph
If we're if we have visibility into like our motives, yeah, um, is this desire to, to sort of project our identity into the world and somehow use that to make the world better? Yeah. If you don't believe that, then you're probably not going to get out of bed and make something. Yeah. Um, and and it's very that's sort of like nebulous language and it's vague, but like I think on some level that's true of every artist. Yeah. And so I think you have to start there. Yeah, is understanding like what's really driving me here is a desire to, to leverage my identity towards making the world better, not just simply making the world better, but to like put myself into it in a way that changes things positively.

00:22:59 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, I totally agree with that. One of the ways I articulated internally is I think the core of all creativity is bringing order out of chaos, right? Like so, as a musician, if I'm looking at an octave. You know, on a piano, I have like keys that have whole steps, half steps in between, black and white keys, right? All of those are available to me, but if I play all of them, it will sound like chaos. So the job of the creative is to take the possibilities and to order them in a way that's like brings beauty out of the chaos. And whether you're a storyteller, where you take a hard situation and you make make it into something that can make somebody laugh, make them.

00:23:43 @jonathandavidray
You know, feel something, grieve, whatever. I just think inherently that is the that is the base of all creativity. But that's meant to be shared. Like I don't think self expression should be selfish expression. Like it is self in that it's coming from me and my perspective. But it should always be shared. Like even from my faith perspective. Like I think the first creative act. Is in Genesis like one two, where it says like the spirits over the earth was formless and void. Yeah, right. What is that? Chaos. Yeah, right. Something that had no form. That is infinite possibility. Infinite possibility is terrifying. If I threw you in the middle of the ocean, I said, "Swim." That's terrifying. Yeah, because everything is possible, and and that's debilitating. So the first creative act is taking that debilitating chaos and bringing form to it.

00:24:38 @jonathandavidray
And what's the result of that? It's like life, the possibility of relationships, everything post, the creation story is the possibility of connection, love, friendship, relation. Like everything starts there. So it's like this thing. Creativity is this thing that takes chaos, brings order to it, but it should bring order for a purpose.

00:25:02 Joseph
Absolutely. And so that's the first part. But the second part, to your point, is if I want to write songs, but now I'm forced into this space where I need to pay bills and sell what I do, and try to build a business and be an entrepreneur, none of which comes particularly natural. Then, what? And I think the perspective shift that is probably helpful in this soup is you are the story. You don't write stories.

00:25:37 Joseph
You are a story, and so the way you navigate this—I mean, a blank canvas or like a you know an empty like music staff—yeah, that's kind of a simple problem to solve because you can fit it in your hand. I'm going to paint something or or write a song, yeah. Well, a business that you're trying to scale is a very complex problem, yeah. But you're still an artist in the way that you solve it, yeah, and the way that you react to resistance or. Discouragement or obstacle, like you're telling, you're writing your story as you live it. Yeah, and so be be an artist in the way that you tell that story. Yeah, you know, and but I mean the the songs you write or the films you make, like that's window dressing. Yeah, your life is the story. Yeah, you know.

00:26:23 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, I think too, even when it comes to to business, it's interesting how when it comes to inspiration creating, a lot of us are really comfortable in that space, but then. We like abandon all the things that we're really good at in creative spaces when we get to something like a business. So we are okay with making creative decisions, but then we get to the business and we're like, "Well, what? Let Let's let the market make creative decisions for me. What should I make? Well, like, what's selling, right? Then all of a sudden, I abandon the the part of me that like is intentional that knows what I like and what I want to do. What you're trying to say. What I'm trying to say, and then I come out here and I'm almost.

00:27:03 @jonathandavidray
It's like the person who dates the whoever's interested in them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they don't know who they want to be with. Like they're just whoever has a pulse and and looks at them, they're gonna date. In some ways, I think that's how we we operate in the creative space because it feels less familiar to us. The biggest problem with that is it it then you end up becoming something you're not, and abandoning the things that actually made you unique that the world needs, and. Forty years later, you're you're like, I just do this thing. Yeah. As opposed to saying, like, for me, even when I hear, I was actually having a conversation with somebody the other day, and they were talking about feeling this pressure to niche. I got a niche down because somebody told me, like, what I'm, like, what I'm selling isn't people aren't going to buy, and so I need a niche in this direction. And and I was asking about this, and the way that they were defining niche was.

00:28:00 @jonathandavidray
I got to pick the thing that people want to buy. Yeah, I was like, what if you pick niche on the person you love to serve, and then what do you offer that person would enjoy? What if you just start with like, I really like serving this. I'm going to make the choice instead of saying there's billions of people in the world. Yeah, so, but those choices that affect how you operate in the marketplace, I think, live upstream. As part of the creative act, it's like I'm going to make the decisions, and then that filters into how it looks in the you know the marketplace. But I'm interested to hear what you think about that.

00:28:40 Joseph
What stands out to me about what you just said is the people component. Yeah, as an introvert, as an artist, like this is sort of my cross to bear, as it were. It's like I kind of want to just you know. Step into a closet, close the door, and like make things. Yeah, but I think the invitation, and this is true particularly for followers of Jesus. Yeah, or really for anyone, because I think it's natural law driven. Yeah, but like the if you're looking for meaning, and you should be, then people need to be the mission. Yeah, like straight up. Yeah, and so don't rush away from people; rush toward people. Yeah.

00:29:23 Joseph
And I think that goes deeper as well. But like, if you're trying to respond to a market trend for the sake of like, you know, scaling rapidly or whatever language you use there, yeah, then you're rushing away from people, yeah, you know, because you're just trying to like ride a weird wave, yeah. But if you really lock in with people, yeah, then like. And I wouldn't. I would push back a little bit on what you said again, which is that responding to what what the market is saying is problematic. I think that's jazz, like that's life. And to say I'm going to cut a different path is great, but that's coming from a place of like of privilege, you know. Yeah, many people don't have the option. They're just trying to like you know make it to shore. Yeah.

00:30:20 Joseph
And so, to those people who are like, "That sounds great, Jonathan," but like, "What about me? I'm drowning out here." Yeah, is like you're just playing jazz, and you're still you. You're just like responding to what these other musicians are doing. Yeah, and you're bringing yourself to it. Yeah, you're showing up for that like G seven or whatever it is because that's what they're playing. Yeah, and I think finding yourself in that looks like serving people. Yeah. So it's like, well, okay, this trend has emerged, yeah, and my customers are all about it. I want to like engage with them and have a conversation. Ultimately, where my head's at is like, I want to help you succeed, and that's, I mean, that's true across all verticals.

00:31:04 @jonathandavidray
I like that. I think I, yeah, I like that you push back on that. I think, I think the where I maybe what I'm trying to articulate is like operating with vision as opposed to like being a reactionary. And that's probably maybe a better way of articulating what I'm trying to say, is I meet a lot of folks who, in their moment of need, their their kind of response to, the pressure of like, I need to make a living from this, is is more reactionary, which I think you do that long enough, you lose yourself. Yep. But I think making a pivot with vision, is different than making a pivot like a like a ball in a pinball machine where it's like I just go.

00:31:47 @jonathandavidray
I think the vision component needs to be there, even if it is a, even if you're playing jazz, like, yeah, jazz is hard to play because you have to. There, there are rules, right, right, yeah, and so, but there, there is intent, I guess, is what I'm trying to say, and I think that's something I, I want to, I hope more creatives have is like operating vision. As opposed to like feeling the pressure, fear. Yeah, yeah. And even if it's like, hey, I'm gonna make this decision to pivot here because this is gonna help pay my bills, but it's not where I want to stay. I still think that's vision. Yep. Because it's it's an intentional choice that you're making, and you're recognizing its purpose in this moment of your life, as opposed to I think when we have no calm in our life or space for clarity.

00:32:45 @jonathandavidray
We go where the wind blows. And I think the problem with that is we oftentimes find ourselves in places that we didn't ever want to be, and we don't know how to get back.

00:32:58 Joseph
My story a little bit too much into it. No, I mean maybe I don't think too much, but you are bringing your story, but I relate to it. Yeah, I think a lot of people do.

00:33:06 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, at least that was my experience. Like, I I chased some things that I wanted, but I didn't actually move. I didn't weigh my options. I didn't operate vision. It was just like, ooh, this pathway seems like the pathway of least resistance, and there's more attached to it. So therefore, it is the best pathway. And the result for me was like getting to a place where like I wasn't writing any music. I had no creativity like in my heart. There was no overflow. Like everything was tap dry. Yeah. And I didn't see. I didn't know how to get out of that. And so for me, I just like literally had to pull the eject button and say,

00:33:39 Joseph
Like, I'm going to leave. Which takes courage. It was hard. Yeah, for sure. It was very hard. I've been there. It's scary to pull that strap. Yeah, really scary. But it's also, in retrospect, and this is my projection. Yeah, it's one of the best things you can do, especially if you're scared. Yeah, and that goes back to the idea that you're the song or you're the story. Yeah. So it's like people are watching. If you've got kids, especially, like they're watching. And so, do you want your story to be one that's rooted in fear or courage? Yeah.

00:34:11 Joseph
You get to pick, yeah, and then you have to live with it, a hundred percent. But I think for me, like especially if you're coming from a place of feeling trapped, and this—I mean, this is a personal thing—and I think people relate with this, especially as a creative. If you sort of found a little spot to chill and camp out, and it kind of pays the bills, and it's not what you wanted, but it—it's adequate, and you're still sort of. Stuffing down this wish for more, yeah. Then what? And I think the litmus test question there is: Are you making decisions driven by fear or courage? Yeah. That's it. Like that's the natural law piece. Understanding that if the answer is fear, your story is rooted in fear, and that's the story you're telling. Yeah. Um. And so, and this, I mean, this is just to yourself and to others.

00:35:09 Joseph
Yeah, and sometimes more like tragically to yourself. Yeah, because you start to internalize that you wear it like an identity. Yeah, take that thing off. Sometimes, and I think this one of the miracles of parenthood. Truly, is like when you have a kid, you realize I can't do this. Yeah, like this too hard. Now it's not, but that's what you tell yourself in the short term. And then two years later, you turn around, you realize you've evolved, like you've leveled up in a really tangible way. Yeah, the same thing happens, but but see, in parenthood, you're kind of forced into that because the kid's showing up, whether you're not, whether or not you're ready. You have an option, but you do have an option in your career, which is why many people opt out. Yeah, but if you move forward, I think if you're sort of like teetering on that diving board, you just gotta like.

00:36:03 Joseph
Work yourself like marshal ten seconds of courage and jump, because you will find out things about yourself. Yeah, which I think is probably what you're saying. It's like it's so tremendously healthy. If you're a person, you and I know this about myself. Is like I tend towards scarcity. Yeah, I tend to play small and safe, but I don't want that to be my story. Yeah, and so I'm going to like you know I'm going to marshal that. Temporary gust of courage in order to do something that I then have to respond to. Yeah, and that's where God shows up too.

00:36:36 @jonathandavidray
A hundred percent. Yeah, I was I was talking to um one of my clients. Super, super. She's super talented. She owns a video agency, and we were talking about um. She was frustrated with results she was getting right now with the way she was running her business, and I was like, " Does it feel like like you're comfortable in these ways?" But everything you, everything you hope for lies on the other side of discomfort. So, are you willing to endure discomfort, yeah, in order to find the things that comfort's not providing you, yeah? And I felt like that was a, it wasn't a planned moment, but it was a pivotal moment where, like, we were able to address that, like, discomfort is actually, it's not something to flee from. It is a necessary part of the process.

00:37:27 @jonathandavidray
Of growing, like growing is not comfortable.

00:37:31 Joseph
Everyone knows this.

00:37:32 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, I mean, this is why you go to the gym. This is natural law. A hundred percent. Yeah, it's a part of. Yeah, when you're literally growing as a child. Yeah, teething hurts. Yeah, right. But it is interesting that that being in in like the coaching consulting space, it is interesting that like a lot of times when we live in such chaos, yeah, we actually can't see the things that are obvious. Yes, we don't have eyes to see it. Yep, we don't have space to see it. Like when you're going a million miles an hour down the road, like 150 miles an hour, you don't see things the same way as when you're going slower. And so, even for me, like a big meta narrative for the past decade of my life is like, how do I effectually slow the pace down in my life on purpose? What things can I do to slow down enough to where my vision isn't clouded because.

00:38:25 @jonathandavidray
The pace of life is too fast, and honestly, I feel like that's what a lot of consulting coaching is. It's like, let's intentionally slow down the pace, yeah, so that we see things. Like I'm, this probably sounds bad to put on camera, but I don't feel like I have secrets that nobody else has. There is nothing that I have that you couldn't find somewhere on the internet, right, right. I'm not present. I'm not Isaac Newton. Going to give you some some new equation to to doing your creative business that you don't know how to do. What I am going to do is bring order to something that has you've you've been comfortable in chaos. Yeah, and that's why you're stuck. You know, some people I work with, they're really successful already financially. Yeah, but their life is miserable. Or their life feels comfortable, and they're.

00:39:18 @jonathandavidray
Their bank account's miserable. Yeah, but like order in a new pace is necessary. Stretching, ah,

00:39:25 Joseph
Necessary. Whatever you're naturally inclined toward, you probably need to like buck that. Yeah.

00:39:32 @jonathandavidray
Earlier, you were talking about how your your your your fellow business owners sitting in like they are each bringing something different. Yeah. I think honestly, like a lot of really healthy partnerships.

00:39:43 Joseph
Yep,

00:39:43 @jonathandavidray
Like that's exactly what they what they bring is that somebody else's skill set stretches your comfort zone. Yep, and it's necessary to be better.

00:39:51 Joseph
Partnership cannot like the importance of partnership cannot be overstated. Yeah, and I know it can go sideways, and I know that's a common story. And so choose wisely. Yeah, but even if you're not financially tied to someone, surround yourself with people who have a stake. And what you're doing, yeah, and vice versa, yeah. Um, because when you when you strap yourself or you lash yourself to people that you admire, like you create a raft, and everyone benefits.

00:40:24 @jonathandavidray
How would you suggest somebody go about doing that? I meet a lot of folks that are are kind of loners. Yeah, like they don't have that. I don't. I don't necessarily fully understand that because, um, I've been blessed to build like a little tribe of friends. Same that have. Been in my life, like my my two best friends. Like I was telling you earlier about my podcast, Best Buy. Like my two best friends are brothers. I've known them since I was in seventh grade, and they've been my ride or dies. So they're very different for me, but they their perspectives on life, like they enrich my life. And so when I meet people that don't have like a tribe, I'm I'm sometimes a little bit. I'm like I don't know how to, how do I, practically tell you how to make that. Yeah. At this stage,

00:41:08 Joseph
What yeah, what would be your, Well, first off, like I co-sign what you're saying—the rarity of this. I mean, there is the so-called epidemic of loneliness. Yeah, it's very real. Yeah, and the death of the third place. A lot of like research. Yeah, and and you know, columnists have sort of you know, strung out these long like soliloquies about it. Yeah. For me, I would say it's I'm gonna kind of shoot from the hip here. It's three pieces. The first is like start with your why. Start with your mission. And if you don't know what that is, then like, ask yourself, like, what is the injustice you're trying to address? Like, what breaks your heart? Yeah, and then go find the community where people are doing something about that. And hint is the the mission does need to be people. Yeah, some kind of underserved demographic. Maybe it's like out on your front, you know, on your front yard, or like on the other side of the world. But like, find.

00:42:04 Joseph
Find that why, and then find the community of people who are doing something to serve that demographic. So they're vision aligned, visually aligned, and so that obviously that like that that makes the pool small, right? And you start spending time with those people. Friendship is important. Be friends. This isn't strategic or tactical. Go and like enjoy those people, yeah, and spend time with them and break bread, yeah, and develop friendship. And in that process, you're going to discover the. You that you really admire, yeah, and these are people that you just naturally respect because they have a quality that you aspire to have yourself. Yeah, those are the people. Yeah, like go and pursue a depth of relationship with those people because you're going to become a, you're going to become more like them, which you want to be, right? If you respect them, yeah, and then B, like you're going to have work to do with them, yeah.

00:42:59 Joseph
And I think this idea of partnership as adults, especially in the comfortable West, it's all just sort of like based in convenience. It's like, well, we go to the same bar. That's not good enough. Yeah. There's a reason you see significant relationships beginning college because you're sort of like displaced in this random campus for four years. There's a reason you see that effect amplified in combat. It's like these war buddies struggle together.

00:43:26 @jonathandavidray
It's because you struggle together.

00:43:28 Joseph
Because you had something to do together,

00:43:30 @jonathandavidray
A hundred percent. Yeah, I think too. Like finding friends looks like being a friend as well. Like when you find people who are value aligned, like you have to invest. Like it can't be a self service to you. Like I'm lonely, therefore, like people need to come make the way to me. It's like you, you have to, like earlier talking courage. Like yeah,

00:43:51 Joseph
You have to courageously show up and understand it's not going to be smooth sailing the whole time. Yeah. Don't don't turn tail as soon as you get your feelings hurt. Yeah, dig in, you know, and try to be a mensch, like like make it through with people, because on the other side you've got like a ride or die. Yeah, you know,

00:44:09 @jonathandavidray
And investing in somebody else is inherently a risky thing, right? But that's a necessary risk. Every good thing, right? Every good thing. I, I, you said something about like your relationships being built on convenience. So, um, a a big part of like me leaving my last job, like. Meant also leaving the church community I was a part of, and what was really interesting to me is that like hundreds of people that I built relationships with, like I could count on half my hand. How many of those existed afterwards? And what I realized is like so many of those relationships were built on convenience. Like, oh, we're in the same place at the same time. You seem easy to get along with. We like some of the same things, but it wasn't built around like.

00:44:55 @jonathandavidray
Life, a sense of giving and receiving. It was built around like we are conveniently in the same places in the same time. Yeah. Proximity. Yeah. And I started thinking, actually, leaving that situation, I started thinking, I wonder if a lot of folks even church hurt is in regards to like a misalignment of expectation around like, no, these are real relationships, but maybe they didn't really experience. What it means to be like risking, rather than saying like that is church.

00:45:31 Joseph
A lot of church goers have never experienced church. Yeah, yeah, because it's just like a club that meets on Sunday.

00:45:35 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah, a club that has the same denomination you prefer. Yeah, and the same music you prefer, and the same speaking style you prefer. The same school. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That is definitely the. Did I scratch at something? Sorry. Yeah,

00:45:54 Joseph
No.

00:45:54 @jonathandavidray
Some I have. I have my two cents about what's going to happen with the church in America. Do you want to go there?

00:46:01 Joseph
We can. Let me say one thing first, while it's on my mind. So, this idea of like the natural law of like pushing through resistance as the exclusive means toward growth. Yeah. Um. I mean, the the one story that I always come back to because it's so. It's so true in like a fundamental way. Is the story of Abraham and Isaac, right? And we may have talked about this. I bring it up a lot in conversation because it just it's so meaty. Yeah. Um. But Abraham is called to go up this mountain, which, by the way, the mountain isn't specified. Yeah. God says, "Go to this region, to a mountain that I'll show you when you get there." Yeah. And so Abraham goes. To his credit, like he obeys, and he takes his son, who doesn't know what's going on. Yeah.

00:46:50 Joseph
And they go up the mountain together, and of course, this is also a picture of God and Jesus. Yeah, hundred percent. Because it was the same mountain. Yeah, you know, however many hundred years later. But at the top of the mountain, of course, there's the miracle. So at the extremity of need, at the extremity of risk and obedience, at the top of the mountain, the ram in the thicket shows up. Isaac is spared, and. This is a little bit of an extra biblical insight that I encountered years ago, but I love it because the historian says Abraham and Isaac walked up the mountain together. But then later, when Abraham returns to his servants at the bottom of the mountain, it says he is alone, or at least it doesn't mention Isaac. I don't know what that means. It could mean nothing. Interesting. But I have this thought that in this moment, Isaac, Isaac, the son.

00:47:48 Joseph
Encounters God for the first time, like his dad's God, he got to see. Now, this is a challenge for parents. Like, are you taking your kids on adventures of faith? Yeah. Are you Are you showing your kids what it looks like for dad and mom to do the hard, scary, obedient thing? Because you owe that to them. Yeah. But then also here in the West, and this is, I mean, I'm like indicting myself here. I wonder, like we have this sort of angsty, restless, disillusioned version of Christianity. Yeah. Well, I haven't seen a ram in the thicket. I read the stories and I sing the songs, but like I've never felt anything like that. Yeah. Well, have you climbed the mountain, or are you like going to church at the bottom of the mountain in base camp? Right. Yeah. And I think this. I mean, again, this is just natural law. Yeah. But if you're trying to.

00:48:44 Joseph
Write a story that is worth telling someday. Like we'll go to the conferences and sit and listen to the person who's like serving red light district in South Asia. That's so inspiring, right? Well, their story is full of risk and doing scary things. Yeah. And you're meanwhile, I'm not going to say you. We are sitting in the air-conditioned, padded auditorium, listening to the story. Yeah. Taking no risk. Yeah. And wondering where's our miracle.

00:49:14 Joseph
Yeah, you know.

00:49:15 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, we we somehow have disillusioned ourselves that we can experience the goodness, the mercy, and the presence of God by not walking the ways of God. We think we can have our cake and eat it too. We're like, why am I not experiencing X, Y, Z? But like you said, we we refuse to walk the path. We instead like relegate ourselves to the things that feel comfortable and right. And we don't want to challenge that. And when somebody does challenge it, they're not part of our tribe. Like go somewhere else. Yeah. We don't like how that feels because it serves something deep inside.

00:49:51 Joseph
A hundred percent. And then we were like, well, yeah, miracles. Well, maybe miracles happen back then. They don't happen anymore. Yeah, yeah. And you talk to somebody then who's an actual missionary. Yeah. Somewhere where and they've experienced miracles. Safety nets.

00:50:05 @jonathandavidray
Yeah. It was either God shows up or I fail. Yeah. Maybe it's actually the. Maybe it's actually God. The reason miracle we don't see miracles is is because it wouldn't change anything, or we'd relegate them away. To we'd explain them away, or we don't really want the miracles.

00:50:24 Joseph
We don't really miracle. I know that's sort of like a charged word, but like let's say transformation. Yeah, and that's where this is true in business as well. Yeah, it's like you want a story that you can proudly tell your kids. You know, maybe even your community. And inspire people to to take bold steps as well. Yeah. Well, then take bold steps. Yeah. Do something scary that doesn't have a guaranteed like positive outcome. Yeah. And find out like who you really are, because that's like that's the opportunity. And I think that's kind of what you're saying is like, don't let fear write your story for you.

00:51:01 @jonathandavidray
Yeah. And and if you think like you can't, you're going to reap what you sow. So you can't live one way and expect the outcome of living a different way. I can't operate by fear and expect that I'm going to receive the merits of walking the risky path. It just doesn't work that way. That's that's absolute disillusionment.

00:51:18 Joseph
Winning the lottery, yeah, yeah. You're not going to be asked to speak on a panel just because you pulled the lucky ticket.

00:51:24 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, because you have money in your bank account, which most of lottery winners go broke.

00:51:28 Joseph
Right?

00:51:28 @jonathandavidray
They they do. Yeah, almost all of them. Yeah, lose. They're very unhappy people on average. You know what's interesting? I don't. I, If anybody watches this, they can fact quote me on this. But I remember reading a sociological study on generational wealth, and so many people that have that built something when in their lifetime, and then their kids inherited inherited it. That wealth's gone in a generation. It just doesn't. A lot of those kids. It is their normal to receive the benefits.

00:52:05 @jonathandavidray
Of the hard work without the hard work, yeah, and so it's spoiled on them, yeah. Um, and I think for a lot of us in the West, we're we're living that way. We talked about westerns earlier, like, um, having a tame land, the intensity of like the land fights between the Native Americans and westerners. Like, there's so much hardship, yeah, that that we all sit on the shoulders of now. Um, and so we're disconnected. From the hardships, so yeah. Um, in some ways, like even the the spoils of the West are wasted on on those of us that just want to live in the comfort of things that.

00:52:46 Joseph
Were spoils were never the point. Like yeah, even the people who who fight the good fight, yeah, and maybe come out with like you know a gold mine, yeah. The gold mine isn't the payoff, yeah. The payoff is the story that you get to tell, yeah. And I mean that's just the truth. The wealth is incidental,

00:53:01 @jonathandavidray
Yeah. But like the value is.

00:53:04 Joseph
Is the story that you get to tell because you were brave,

00:53:07 @jonathandavidray
Hundred percent? Do you want talking about diving my thoughts on church?

00:53:12 Joseph
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it.

00:53:13 @jonathandavidray
Are we even still recording? I don't even know. I can't see a tally light. I'm gonna, I'm gonna totally make sure this is still. We made it to five minutes. Nice, nice. So, in the world right now, the church in Africa, in India, in China, are, Dwarfing, there there is more people coming to faith and growing in the like, gospel movement in in those places than in Europe or America. And what's interesting is also like the greatest concentration of quote unquote miracles occurring, occurring in those places. And I think that we have become so elitist in our version of.

00:54:03 @jonathandavidray
The church in the West—that we are essentially no longer experiencing or choosing what is necessary to grow the faith. Period. So as a result, we're declining. And I think the mega churches are on their way out. I think established religion is on their way out. I think giant, bloated staffs of people who's who are making all their money off of giving. Are just like a couple economic downturns away from it not being sustainable anymore, and I think the model that's in the Book of Acts that shows biblicational leaders, people leading out of conviction and calling, not out of there's opportunity here. I think we're going to swing. We'll either have to swing that way because I think this is an unsustainable model.

00:54:59 @jonathandavidray
And I think the reason why we're seeing growth in these other places is because their their model is different. And I think the I I honestly think that the models that are laid out in the Gospels and the New Testament they experience different different results than the way we're doing it here. And I think the model also is a reflection of the heart of the movement, just as much as like.

00:55:30 @jonathandavidray
We are often the reflection of our values, our internal values, right? And so, I think what we're seeing as the results of the way we're doing it in the West is an indication of that we've abandoned some things because the fruits, if you trace them back to the root, the fruits are evidence of what's going on inside. And so, I do see a huge movement in these house churches. Folks that are starting to starting a church and they're bi vocational actually see a lot more of that right now, yeah, and it's growing a lot, yeah. Um, and what we see is stagnation in the really established bodies and churches, whether it's non denomination or denominational.

00:56:12 Joseph
I could not agree with any of this anymore.

00:56:14 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, I just I think having also been a leader in um in churches um and a pastoral leader like. We make decisions that are so antithetical to the scriptures. Like we abandon our children at children's church because we don't because they're a distraction. Yeah. To us, so now the family doesn't worship together, and we can't model being a family of faith. Instead, we relegate everybody to an environment so they they don't they don't cry when the sermon's happening, so I can focus, right? And then at the same time, too, we.

00:56:53 @jonathandavidray
We want the ministerial staff to do all the work. Yep, because that's their job. Yep, they're getting paid for it. So they're the ones who are supposed to be obedient to the calling, because that's their calling. Yeah, but I'm here to be served. Yes, I'm here to be inspired. I'm here to have my cup filled. I'll volunteer once a month, but that's about it. Or we use our resources as the means of voting. Like I give money. So my opinion matters rather than I'm being obedient. Yep, and giving with a cheerful heart. So there's there's so many like layers to the onion in which it we're setting up. I think these local bodies for failure. Like even how many non denominational churches have no oversight for the leaders. Yep, or we have these pyramid systems where there's one person at the top.

00:57:52 @jonathandavidray
Do you know what's so interesting to me? In I think it's like Mark six when Jesus sends out the disciples to go do ministry, and actually they journeyed with him for a long time before they were ever sent out by themselves. Yeah, he sends them out two by two. When you read the Book of Acts, what do you see about the apostles? Two by two. Two by two. It's so fascinating to me that we have abandoned this kind of camaraderie, co-leadership, yes, yeah, way of doing ministry. And we've abandoned it for the single CEO figure, and I'm not surprised passages are falling left and right because actually it was not designed to allow for that. Yep, Paul the apostle had a person who was alongside him. Who, by the way, he chose his people wisely because they weren't they weren't subservient to him. Yeah, they were co-laborers, right? That's why, in fact, like John Mark goes back to.

00:58:48 @jonathandavidray
To Jerusalem, Peter doesn't want to journey with him anymore because he doesn't feel confident they're going to be they're co-equal in vision and and mission, right? Which is super interesting period because the first gospel is the gospel of Mark, who was written by the one who Paul didn't want to journey with, right? Not that's a wrong thing for Paul, but it's just interesting how God works amidst the changes, right, or disagreements. Yeah, but but I I literally think that the model by which we gather people and do church, organisationally, is built for failure. Yes, and I think that's why it's failing. I don't think it's because the gospel isn't powerful. I think it's we're trying to cram it into a model that is not. It doesn't reflect what it is. And honestly, I think God's okay with that because it leads us. I think people will scatter.

00:59:41 @jonathandavidray
And I think what we'll see is probably what needs to happen, which is we stop having these just mega movements that are tribes.

00:59:53 Joseph
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have cultivated a culture that prioritizes comfort and security. Yeah. And you see, I think. I mean, I I think a lot about the role of parenthood in this. Because we're modeling for our kids how they're going to do church, do life, and I think when we prioritize going to church, you hear that message of surrender, yeah, and you sing the song about like giving everything, but then it's like make sure you get the right job, go to the right school, marry the right person, buy the right house, all for the sake of minimizing discomfort. Yeah, that's what parents desire.

01:00:39 Joseph
For their kids in the West is minimal discomfort. Well, that's not in the Bible, and it's also not good for not all. Yeah, and I think this sort of like you're talking about this corporatization of American church is creating the disillusion generation. Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah, because it's going to cause all of us to wrestle with bigger questions. Yeah, do we believe it or not? Because if so, then like let's go and actually live it, not just show up. You know, and sit in pew on Sunday.

01:01:08 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, I can't expect to be fed by the meal if I never eat it. You know, it's it's assinine. It's like totally backwards. I think it's one of the hard reasons. I think even just to talk personally, like me and my family are really figuring out, like, well, where do we want to be? Yeah, because we'll go visit places, and I just because I was behind the curtain for so long, I can just spot things immediately. Or I'm like, this is a I'm sure that individual is a great leader and person, but this model is not built to support them because it's an unsustainable way of doing this, and that makes me uncomfortable to invest here. And yeah, I think I think maybe there's a lot of people that are in that space too. I didn't think I'd ever be in that space, but but yeah, it is interesting. No longer like.

01:02:04 @jonathandavidray
Working in a specific ministry, even like as a bivocational or as a vocational role, I was this year. We were my wife and I were joking that this Easter was the first Easter in eighteen years that I didn't have a job. Yes, on Sunday morning. That's crazy. Wild. Yeah. Whether it was a I was full time on staff or I was just part time. Yeah. Like as a musician, you know. Yeah. But or Christmas Eve, like this was the the.

01:02:34 @jonathandavidray
In 20 years, we actually got to stay home and have Christmas Eve dinner with the family. Amazing! How crazy is that? Yeah, my wife's a violinist, so she also is a musician. Oh, okay, cool. With within within church world too. Yeah, because if you're a Christian in the South and you play an instrument, you're probably going to be involved in some way. Um, so she was the same way. I was like, wow. Also for me, you know, she's been playing in church since she was, you know, 15s. Since she could. Yeah, and she's 42, so it's like, don't watch that tipping.

01:03:05 Joseph
No , I think I mean I so agree with what you're saying, and not that my agreement means anything, but I feel the truth. It means something to me. Yeah. Okay. Good. But no, I think there's sort of hand in hand with that. There's this idea in the West, like we've got the truth, and our duty is to dispense it to the ignorant. Yeah. And that's what that's like a commodity. Yeah. That's that's sort of the the attitude that has characterized like modern missions. Right, it's like you you'd fly over and dump traps, yeah, because that's how we're going to like, you know, share the love of Jesus. But I think the two by two thing isn't just a strategy; it's not really a strategy. I think what it what that indicates is the the role of relationship, yeah, in the way the gospel is meant to organically spread.

01:03:57 @jonathandavidray
It almost models the the original people. Who were made in a pair. It's very interesting how we see things like iconically as almost a a cookie cutter, a mold over the course of Scripture, and that's one of them. Yeah, like the obsession with numbers in many ways, like the twelve, the three, the inner circle. You had the twelve, and you had the three. Yeah, twelve disciples. You had the three inner circle. Like they're.

01:04:31 @jonathandavidray
You see, actually, these things play out over time, and it's interesting. It's like the pattern is there as a clue, yeah, to like there is meaning. And if if a Hebrew reads the Bible, they're they're going to see that because numerology for them is different for us. We we see numbers; they say that number means something. But but yeah, a hundred percent. I I think it isn't a ministry strategy;

01:04:57 Joseph
It's the reflection. It's a lifestyle. There's um. So we love the Great Commission: go into all the world. Yeah. Um. I'm not a scholar, but I've heard that a more appropriate translation of that text would be as you go into the world. So it's less intentional and more like this organic thing that happens. It's expected. It's a passive. Yeah. Like as you, and you isn't singular. You is plural. So as you go into the world, enjoying community. And sort of warming your hands by the same fire, like that dynamic produces an attractive aroma that people are naturally drawn to, and not a fabricated aroma.

01:05:38 @jonathandavidray
You know, it is a it is the natural overflow. Yeah, of someone who has encountered true transformation, and true transformation can't be contained. It's like inspiration. Yeah, you hang around people who are inspired. Guess what's going to happen to you? You're inspired. Yeah. Right. To go back to Christopher Nolan, yeah, on the Odyssey, that's something that all the actors have been talking about. Is like everybody was bringing their best and inspired everybody to bring their best. So, like the overflow of what's happening inside affects the people around you. Yeah, and it's not this thing that's put on. My favorite part about the Great Commission is that we hear the first part and we never pay attention to the second part. Making disciples, yes. We hear no, no. We hear that it's that part, the mission. Yeah.

01:06:25 @jonathandavidray
And I will be with you always, even to the end of the age. Yeah, he's not saying a go do; he's saying let's do together. That is a completely—it's not the king sending out the servants; it's the shepherd going out with you. That's like I'm not on a mission that I've been sent. I'm—I'm actually journeying with. The Creator, so therefore He sees me. Yeah, I'm not doing this alone. I'm not. The ends don't justify the means. Yeah, because He's with me. Yeah, it's not strategic. I don't stain on the heads of some people so I can further the mission. Because when I put my head on my pillow, like the Creator of the universe saw all that, and He's with me. Yeah, right. And also, when I feel like I can't do it, but He's with me. He's the one who empowers me.

01:07:23 @jonathandavidray
I'm not doing this to go do. I have an invitation to come be. Yeah. Right. And I think that completely changes. Yeah. How you live and breathe in a world as a Christian. Yeah. Because you are no longer sent out to go do. You are invited to be. Right. In fact, like the two biggest invitations of the New Testament are Jesus saying, "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden." Right. Matthew eleven, or, "Come follow me."

01:07:53 @jonathandavidray
Both of those are relational. None of those are about the individual. They're about the relationship.

01:08:01 Joseph
There's so much that Matthew eleven passes like the cross stitch pillow passage. Which I think is often misinterpreted.

01:08:10 @jonathandavidray
The context there is he's talking about religion, and religion is a set of rules. It doesn't matter which faith tradition you ascribe to, throughout time and place.

01:08:20 Joseph
It's always just a set of rules. Are you in or out? And we, as humans, love to flock, and so we draw lines and we make rules and we give people labels. That's our religious inclination. Jesus did not come to start a new religion. He died a Jew. Yep. His invitation was away from religion. So he's talking about the rules in Matthew eleven. All the rules. There was a rule at the time. That on the Sabbath, this isn't in Scripture, but this was a rule that the Jews invented for themselves.

01:08:55 @jonathandavidray
They had hundreds of rules.

01:08:56 Joseph
Hundreds that were yeah, all downstream of the original. Right, right, right. And this one, as an example, on the Sabbath, it is not lawful to carry anything heavier than a dried fig. Right? Are you in or out? Yeah. Jesus says, " Aren't you tired? Yeah. Aren't you tired of that? Yeah. Aren't you ready for freedom, a different way?" There is a a group that I've spent some time traveling with recently, and I think I guess the one banner that would sort of unite them is they're all adjacent to the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington. Yeah, but they attend prayer breakfasts all over the world. We were just in Berlin at their gathering. Wow, and a really interesting group of people. But one guy who's become a little bit of a mentor to me. He lives in Oregon. His name's Steve. What's up, Steve? He is.

01:09:48 Joseph
So full of wisdom, and he talks about how again in the West there's this idea that you go from being lost to being found. You join the search party, and you grab your lunch pail and you go to work for Jesus. Right, you're on your way to like the job site, yeah, and you're a member of the work crew. But Steve says you're not part of the work crew. You actually are the job site. Right, so you might carry this idea that you're like, yeah, gonna make a difference, yeah, and maybe you are, God willing, you will. But like, understand, you are a work in progress yourself, and so this community is the end. Yeah, it's not a work crew. Yeah, I think a more a helpful way to to sort of view it is like we're just enjoying the identity that we've stepped into that we've been given together.

01:10:45 Joseph
And that organically produces warmth that other people want to be a part of and experience. That's how it's meant to happen.

01:10:54 @jonathandavidray
Yeah, it's like our only job in John 15 is to abide, remain, just stay. That's it. That's your only job. That's it. But what are I supposed to go do? You're just supposed to stay. Yeah, that's it. You know what I love about that Matthew 11: 28 passage is he's only calling one type of people. Those who are weary and heavy laden. That's who get the call. Yeah, the ones that hear that that are too proud to admit that they are weary and heavy laden, they, they don't, they don't need it yet. They don't need it yet. Right? Oh, I love that. I think that's. I love it. You are the work side.

01:11:34 Joseph
Isn't that like?

01:11:35 @jonathandavidray
Isn't that helpful? That's so helpful.

01:11:37 Joseph
I mean, it just takes all the weight off your shoulders. Steve's awesome. You are the work side. But no, it's just this idea, like you're saying, of shedding all the trappings of religion, and connecting to the vine and following. Yeah, that's it.

01:11:56 @jonathandavidray
And all of is modeled for you, like going back to John 15 passage. In the middle, he says, " Greater love has none than this, and he who lays down his life for his friend." And you know what he says right after that? He says, " You are my friends." And what does he he that sermon takes place? Is it's a conversation between walking from the upper room and the garden of Gethsemane? What is he literally going to do to prove that he loves his friends? Yeah, they don't even some of them don't even know. Yeah, I freaking love that that he's saying like greater love has on this. He lays on life for his friends. I call you friend.

01:12:34 Joseph
Watch and learn.

01:12:37 @jonathandavidray
He's like, I call you friend because I've made known to you everything that the Father's made known to me.

01:12:43 @jonathandavidray
Earlier In in in the life of disciples, it says that they were often confused by the parables, and it says that. But in private, he made all things known to them. And I just freaking love that. I love that the entire story of all the gospels is always wrapped in relationship, and it's not wrapped in doing. And for those of us that feel so tired, it's like perfect. Now you're at a place where you finally can receive. Yeah, like. Have you heard of tennis elbow? This is a total tangent. Have you heard tennis elbow? Yes. Right. Do you know how you get it? No. I mean, playing tennis. I don't know. You hold the racket too hard. Okay. Two players doing the same exact thing, and one of them's injuring themselves. Yeah. It's like, can you surrender enough to not grip it so hard? Like the reason you're tired and heavy laden, and that you're trying to follow those rules, is because you're making it into something it's not.

01:13:40 @jonathandavidray
Just receive, see that injury as instead of evidence that it's not working, see it as an invitation to finally let go. And I think there's freedom in that space of being like, I'm going to finally just be. I'm gonna stop trying.

01:14:04 Joseph
Yeah. Well, grace. Yeah. Something we sing about, Amazing Grace. Yeah. But how many of us actually receive that? Yeah. Let alone give it to ourselves and others. It feels so good, so like inescapably wonderful to receive grace, and it's on offer. Like we can all access it, but we, whether because of shame or self-loathing or whatever it is, like we hold back most of the time, and that's why we're not experiencing freedom. You can't experience freedom if you haven't let go of.

01:14:37 Joseph
The things that are imperfect in yourself, Jesus says, "When I see you, I see a spotless land." That's that's scandalous, yeah, right? But when we receive that, like ah, the relief, right? And I think the gift is being able to give that to other people, yeah. Like when you show up to someone who's in a painful season. Whether they know about Jesus, follow Jesus or not, like the gift that you have to give to them and to yourself is grace. That's the good news. Yeah. And it's not — it's not like a report that you're sharing. Mm - hmm. It's — it's something that you do. It's like I'm going to give you grace.

01:15:18 @jonathandavidray
Feel this. Because you've received it. You can't give that which you haven't received.

01:15:23 Joseph
Love.

01:15:24 @jonathandavidray
I can't — I can't give somebody grace if I don't know what it feels like. Mm - hmm. Right, like just like my kids can't speak unless they've received language from me. Like your infant kids, their first words are based on what they've received. They they can't they can't sit in a school and learn. All they're doing is they're mirroring back what they've received. Their first words are often the words they heard the most, or like they're attached to things that they value and love. There's there's connection, right? Like, oh, it's mommy, right? And they're.

01:16:00 @jonathandavidray
We can't, we can't replicate or give what we have not received. In fact, we will only replicate and give what we've received. So, yeah. I mean, I even think about this from a creative standpoint. Like, DNA does not replicate a different version of itself; it replicates what it is. And when we want to invoke change in the world, or if we want to see something, we have to be that which what we want to. Produce, yeah, because we don't produce something different. It it's impossible. Like, even like the sense of ministry or discipleship. Like, you, if you are a pastor, you're not going to lead someone to a different outcome than you're living. Yeah, you're going to create. You're going to create followers. You're going to create repeats, and so that's why, like.

01:16:58 @jonathandavidray
I think we have to be so careful as parents, as creatives. Like, pay attention to what is going on inside of me. Yeah. Because, because out of the overflow, I live, whether I want, whether I want to or not. Yeah. And some of us pick up on this when, when we're parents, and something comes out of us that we're like, I don't like that. Why do I get frustrated at that? Why do I get angry? Why do I say that? Right. And we have to like do some work to be like, what is it? What's being responded to in my life? What that's leading out of that? Because what's in the cup is what spills out of the cup. So, like the journey of I think like maturing and and growing is like what's in the cup. And what I love about like faith in in Christ is that He refills the cup. Right out of you will flow living water. Yeah. So instead of like having to go do all the work, it's like I just need to be at the source. Yep.

01:17:57 @jonathandavidray
And then, what flows out of me connects to the vine. What overflows out of me, like if I think about it, the metaphor my mentor uses: cup, saucer, plate. Like if if abiding is me holding my cup underneath the stream, and then underneath is this saucer that represents the closest relationships that been placed in my life. Yep. And underneath that is the mission and how the world sees what's bear witness to what's going on. That is a natural overflow. Yeah, the cup overflows in the saucer, the saucer overflows in the plate. But what happens when the mission's all that matters? I starve. Things things get starved. Yeah. Or if I'm like, hey, I'm only like, I'm just gonna serve. Like it's all about serve. Like God, please bless these people. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a drink offering for everybody. It's like, well, Jesus was a drink offering for you. Yeah. And out of the overflow of receiving, what comes out of that is.

01:18:54 @jonathandavidray
It's him. That's good, right? Yeah, that's good. Um, in fact, like a lot of, yeah, I'm actually teaching this to my coaching clients on Tuesday. They don't. It's going back to you're saying natural law. Like, yeah, I I think this is something actually that is baked into yeah our design. Yeah. Um, like when we're seeing as an entrepreneur, we're like, there's disruption in the lives of people who are close to me. Like, we need to audit ourselves by going back up and being like, what am I receiving? Like. Am I? Am I allowing myself to be starved? And so, like, we'll frame that in a way that makes sense to folks of different backgrounds. Yeah. But but yeah, I've I've once I started seeing that in my own life, I started being able to take a sense of like, well, where are my priorities? Like, am I am I shifting how this is supposed to be? Yeah. And that's why I'm feeling completely burnt out. And that that's why I left. It's like the mission was more important. Am I?

01:19:53 @jonathandavidray
For my last season of life, than, than, than just sitting and being receiving. Yeah. And so as a result, like on the outside, it looked like great things were being done. Yeah. But, but on the inside, not so much.

01:20:07 Joseph
Yeah. I also think as a creative, we tend to sort of overemphasize the value of what we make. Yeah. I know that's like a hard. Yeah. That's a hard idea to to grapple with. But like. We were given the picture of filthy rags, which might be a little harsh. Yeah, so I won't use that one. Yeah, but ultimately, so I'll tell you one story because I know we're we spent a lot of time talking. Yeah, it's been great. But there was an old there's an old story of this guy named John Brown, not the not the abolitionist. This guy was Scottish. Okay, and he was just a pig farmer.

01:20:47 Joseph
And he had a little peat bog and a little croft, like a little house with a wife and some kids. And he what he loved Jesus. The biographer said of John Brown, "I love this. He ran to Christ with the alacrity of a boy bounding home from school." Don't you wish that was you? Yeah, I wish that was true of me. Yeah. But he had a really bad speech impediment, and he wanted to lead a church, but he couldn't. Right. And so what he would do is he would gather the young people. From the area, and they would come to his barn, and he would teach them about Jesus, the ways of Christ, and that was a training ground for heroes of the faith. Well, during this time, there was a really bloody Inquisition, and at one point, this guy named Claverhouse, who was like a grand inquisitor of of that moment in history, comes has heard about John Brown, comes to him, and basically says, "Go to your prayers, for you shall die at once," because he's been making a big impact with like these young people.

01:21:45 Joseph
And I love this story. It's just so powerful to me because he goes, he's like, well, if this is my last prayer, I'll make it a long one, right? So he starts preaching. The historians say he was preaching more than praying, and what's more is he's preaching without any impediment. And so all of the soldiers with their weapons raised, they're listening to this guy just pour his heart out to God, and they refuse to shoot him. Wow! They refuse, and so.

01:22:17 Joseph
Claverhouse says to the wife. He says, " I thought you said this guy couldn't preach." She says, " Well, he can't preach," and he says something like, " Well, he sure can pray, right?" Like this is the historical account, and so he takes his sidearm out and he shoots John Brown dead in his peat bog, and then he turns to his wife and says, " What thinkest thou of thy husband now, woman?" Wow. And she says, " I never thought more of him." That's this is a true story.

01:22:43 @jonathandavidray
Holy moly!

01:22:44 Joseph
I know that's a hard one. But I think to myself, that's insane. That's a deep story, right? I think to myself, what are what's your speech impediment? Because we don't all have the gifts that we want. Yeah, most had one. But as creatives, it's like, well, what are you doing with what has been placed in your hands? Yeah. If you've got a song to write, write it, or a story to tell, tell it. But gather the young people, so to speak, and give what you have. Pour yourself out, because that's where the meaning comes in. Yeah.

01:23:15 Joseph
And I think the power for me, and this is, I sort of wanted to close with this as it were, is this like the the message boiling up in my heart, is like you are writing your story, and ultimately, whether it's an inquisitor or someone else, the question will be asked, "What do you think of this guy? What do you think of this woman?" And the answer that Brown's wife gives in the story is like, "I never thought so much of him." Yeah, like, don't you want that eulogy? Yeah, you know, and so I think de-emphasize maybe to a degree de-emphasizing the value or the status of what you do. Yeah, how good is your song or your movie? Just do, just be, and pour yourself out because that's more important than yeah any you know MP3 or like movie that people go see or company that you build. Hundred percent stuff doesn't matter. It's nobody will remember it in a hundred years. Yeah, it's your speech impediment, but like, what are you actually?

01:24:13 Joseph
Yeah, pouring yourself into. Yeah, and I think for me, like that's the question. That's the filter through which I try to make decisions. I love that. And I think as a business owner too, and whether you have you know a spiritual why or not, it's like pass pass your decisions through the filter of like, well, what's the what's the eulogy that's being written?

01:24:37 @jonathandavidray
What I love about that, and even ending on that is. Often the high view of what we're doing keeps us from actually doing it. Because it becomes a barrier for being the creative that we are, because we have to filter it through. Am I proud of it? Am I okay with it? Is it perfect enough? Rather than being okay with just being. I love that.

01:25:10 @jonathandavidray
This is a great conversation. Great conversation.

01:25:12 Joseph
I don't know if anyone will listen. Thanks for having me. It's great to get to know you a little better.

01:25:19 @jonathandavidray
This is great. This is a lot of fun. Sweet.