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"Mining the hearts and minds of unorthodox teachers"
For the life-long learner who wants honest, human conversations about how we grow, heal, create, and understand ourselves. These are longform dialogues with artists, thinkers, authors, meditators, psychologists, musicians, creatives, leaders, philosophers, healers, and everyday people with something real to teach.
Each episode offers a perspective, story, or insight that tends to lands exactly when someone needs it most. Thoughtful, curious, and quietly life-changing, this show exists to help us live a better life by understanding our own inner world more deeply, through the perspectives of one another.
The Junkyard Love Podcast - for a better life.
Jacob: So anybody who's clicked on this, you know, they've probably given a little bit of a glance at the bio and it has some of your info and of course, all your links and all of your work and stuff can be found down there as well. But for someone who's just kind of clicked on it, maybe they give it a little glance at the bio bio.
Jacob: Who are you and what is it that you do?
Fran: Gosh. Who am I? Such a, prolific question as far as what I do, though. I think that's probably more easily, able to be answered. I support men and getting more of what they want in the bedroom. That's kind of a large, idea that I go for, but I support folks who struggle with compulsive behaviors, such as maybe watching too much porn, maybe having quote unquote, too much sex, whatever.
Fran: Whatever it is, they're up to. I support men who feel disconnected from their bodies during intimacy. I support men who maybe struggle with internal thoughts about what it is, they're thinking about sexually, and maybe they have moral incongruence where they're not, so comfortable with what what it is they're thinking about. So my focus, though, is specifically with men and, helping them understand themselves sexually and be able to use that information to have a more fulfilling life.
Fran: And, and hopefully all areas, not just sex.
Jacob: Okay. So why you and why men.
Fran: Sir? So I think for me, I probably started when I was a kiddo for sure. As far as connecting with the guys, I, athletic and I tend to run more masculine, and traditional stereotypes there. And so I always was, hanging out with the guys, and I really related to boys and men, coaches and.
Fran: I was really more connected with men. I felt my dad, I was close with my dad. And as far as the why, I think I have a lot of compassion and when I was in college, I experienced a rape. And that sent me into a very dark place that I wasn't really ready for by any means. And when I finally kind of came out of that ten, 15 year darkness, I realized that in order for me to be confident again with men, with people with, you know, the world, because it was a really hard experience for me.
Fran: I had to become, I say, dangerously competent. So I, decided that I had to study people. And in my rape situation, my best friend was involved in the planning of it as well. So, And she was a woman. So, having both in that situation, I didn't trust anybody. And so I thought, if I'm going to trust folks, the people that I'm going to get to know are the marginalized folks in, in volunteer spaces because I didn't know them at all.
Fran: And it was the riskiest, scariest thing for me to do. But I just knew that in order for me to get through this fear of people, I had to, kind of go in the trenches with folks. And so I started out in food scarcity, domestic abuse. And then it turned into, I did, human trafficking, prevention at Tampa International Airport.
Fran: I've been a rape crisis hotline advocate for, I had been one for three years, and I was also in rape crisis rooms for three years. And, I noticed a theme in these places, and there was opportunity, and there was a lack of nervous system dysregulation regulation. There was dysregulation in these places. And I was learning that the hurt hurt and there aren't necessarily bad people.
Fran: They do maybe bad or unhelpful things, but I couldn't I couldn't let it go. It seemed that the fella who who had raped me, maybe didn't know better did do better. And I'm not saying that in every situation, but I wanted to learn compassion because in order for me to heal, I had to, just become competent, competent and confident in this.
Fran: So those worlds aligned. And, I really have connected with men in the spaces that I volunteered. Food scarcity. It was really brilliant for me. I really learned a lot in Tampa. That's where I served. And there was a soup kitchen, and it was a five course meal that was prepared by a professional chef. And the volunteers were servers and busboys and, all of that.
Fran: And I got to know them each Sunday and talk with the men there. And there was just a lot of camaraderie with, you know, how much do you lift? And the fellows would start lifting and they would get back to me about their, their, gains. And it just felt like the right direction for me. So, that's sort of how men and me and sex all kind of came together.
Jacob: I'm just picturing you at the soup kitchen, like making all these dudes do a bunch of push ups around you. It's impressive. So.
Fran: I love that.
Jacob: Yeah. Wow. Okay, so. So something. I mean, obviously, I'm feeling it now, but, as I was listening to and exploring a lot of your work, what I kept thinking, I was like, man, she has so much compassion for men. Like, she's such as, like, you just feel so sweet. And to me, I'm like, how is that possible?
Jacob: Why don't you hate men? You know, like, how did you, obviously it took you, you know, a lot of time. And it's not a, you know, an easy story, it sounds like. But I guess, you know, why don't you hate men?
Fran: Sure. Great question. I think I did at one point, for sure. I think the MeToo movement really brought that rage out of me. And when I saw it, I'm not necessarily sure that I felt proud. And I thought to myself, you're discounting a whole group of folks based on a couple bad eggs, and, that didn't feel like the right thing to do.
Fran: And I have made a boatload of mistakes. So to think that, I can't lend forgiveness to somebody who has made, a large mistake is, who am I? I just I can't ignore that. So I tried to every time I feel a mistake is made, I try to balance it out with, what have I maybe done that, is similar or has some ignorance to it and just try to understand where people are coming from.
Fran: And I think so much of our culture shapes us. And so I think we're at a disadvantage in a lot of ways if we are hearing the same things over and over again, if you expect men to be bad, people kind of fall into those expectations. So the last thing I want to do is, you know, what we look for, we find.
Fran: So if I'm looking for men to be bad, damn well, I'm going to find them. But, you know, people are a projection of yourself. So it was very important to me that my universe is a good universe and a happy universe. And, so I've changed my tune 180 and continue to question and challenge myself when bubbles come up and rage comes up.
Fran: You know, I say the gym is definitely where all my neuroses and rage go, you know, thank God for that. But, it's it's a journey. And I certainly check myself. And I'd like to think that I love men wholeheartedly. And there are old wounds in there, but, I've, I've. You had said earlier, and I, I feel like the luckiest person in the world sitting in this spot because I get to hear so much from folks and I get to learn, you know, they think they're grateful for me.
Fran: And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm grateful for you. So it's it's, it's changed my life. Men have changed my life drastically.
Jacob: Yeah. Wow. How powerful. I mean, I'm just thinking about what was the. You've mentioned working out? Obviously, that's been a big thing for you even before, even before the rape, that this was part of your journey, you know, and then you've also I've heard you mentioned things about, like somatic breathwork and kind of feeling into your body things like these, these sound kind of really like a lot of the first initial doors of healing.
Jacob: You know, we've got to recognize when our body is in these, in these states. So can we take it back to, you know, maybe not directly after it happened, but somewhere in that 10 to 15 years, you had some sort of experience, or you had something that maybe helped you go towards, let's heal this thing the way I learned about it or the way that I've been doing things, is it may be working out.
Jacob: I've got to change. Was it breathwork and working out that got you out of that? Or I guess, tell me how you kind of started pulling out of that into changing your perspective.
Fran: And thank you for that thoughtful connection. That wasn't easily woven together. So I appreciate you noticing that, you know, I would I think my mom always says I was born with calf muscles. So I think innately, I'm athletic and found my way through, movement in sports as a little person. So I was in ballet or baseball, softball, basketball, sports, track, whatever.
Fran: That was my my happy place. And then when I was raped, I remember afterwards I stopped moving. And that was deliberate. I remember not wanting to be attractive because I feared that I would attract to that same situation again. And, it it really took a lot from me. You know, if you, you probably have something that you rely on and you do and you trust and you're great at and if that's no longer part of your life, there's a big part of you missing, right?
Fran: So that that felt like a big hole for me. My first job was at a gym. You know, being around that space. I love metal and sweat and all of it. So, big parts of me were missing. And I was in Tucson, Arizona, and wanted to not be on this earth anymore. And my ex-husband suggested that I look into medical marijuana and for my depression.
Fran: And so I thought, I've never smoked pot in my entire life. Yeah, right. When I first smoked pot, I remember going for a couch that wasn't there, and I had like, one, one hit.
Jacob: I think everyone who smoked pot has had that experience.
Fran: Yeah, right. So that immediately, I don't know, within three months, my depression lifted. I realized I was with the wrong guy. I realized I lived in the wrong town, I realized I was in the wrong work and everything changed for me, in that moment. And I started by biking. I had a stationary bike in my living room, and from there, it just it just didn't stop.
Fran: I realized, you know, they say little girls, ballet is, like, the greatest form of, anti depression medicine movement. So when you stop it, it really helps your body. And so I got back into my body and realized, you know, I did every class. I was always in a class once a week trying something new.
Fran: Getting back into breathing, understanding how it is. I, moved and and then I realized how disconnected. Not only was I with my body, but so many of us are. And I saw again opportunity there where, you know, here I am alongside these big guys in the gym and I can relate to them. I am just I have been just as disconnected from my body as they have or they are.
Fran: And so, you know, in, in my in not to talk immediately about my work here, but with my fellows in my programs, they all receive, workout instruction and, dietary information because I think so much of our health, our mental health, our, genitals, our body, the way that we function is reliant on our movement and what we see in our and in our body.
Fran: You know, anal sex to me is so interesting. And pleasurable because what it is you feed in your body, it goes out. And so I went to, put in my body. Beautiful thing. So when somebody is down there enjoying themselves, I definitely want it to be a, just like a healthy, beautiful experience. So I find that so much of what we put in our bodies is coming out, whether it's in our what we say, whether it's in our thoughts, and our genitals, lubrication wise.
Fran: So there's just been a journey of that, I think, again, I started out with calf muscles in the womb and, really just let that, happiness kind of get found again through movement. And it's been it's been so fun.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay. So fascinating. I did not know that about, the cannabis part of it. I mean, I don't need to. I don't know if we need to buckle in on this for so long, but I do find that interesting because I had an experience with cannabis as well where, I had gotten into a bunch of like meditation, yoga, breathwork, that sort of thing.
Jacob: And cannabis was actually like a huge, unexpected catalyst. And it helped me a ton, like get back to my body. And, you know, I was very much like a lifter. I would hang out a bunch of powerlifters and things like this. And I was like, I know, working out like I work out six, seven days a week. I know I've been working out for this long, blah, blah, blah.
Jacob: And then like, yoga comes along. I mean, not only the philosophy and the psychology of yoga, of course, we start reading about it, but you start actually doing some yoga, especially, I mean, for me alone under the influence of cannabis, you know, I thought I was connected to my body. Until you start doing stuff like that, you know, that's a whole different experience.
Jacob: And you know, years later now, it's still a regular part of my practice. My whole workouts are now very different. I kind of like way more movement based and more flow based because of this. But I really equate it back to this, this time in my life when, it's kind of time to try to deal with drinking too much as well years back.
Jacob: And I think, well, cannabis will keep me home a little bit more, keep me out of trouble and stop being a loser at the bar or whatever. And yeah, it turned into this whole like, self-exploration of, years later. So you mentioned the cannabis thing was, was it like that for you? Like, was it, was it like an identity buster for you?
Jacob: Was it like, bring you back into your body and you had been there for a while? Can we explore a little bit more about that cannabis experience for you?
Fran: Yeah. Thanks for relating, I think. Well, I had stopped the minute I looked for that couch when I was high the first time I stopped drinking alcohol. Like that day.
Jacob: Oh, wow.
Fran: So I don't know if I necessarily had a quote unquote dependency. I'm sure there was something there. I'm not sure why I would ever drink rubbing alcohol in that, you know, something so poisonous, it just doesn't make any sense. But, looking back, maybe I had, dependency and emotional dependency of some kind, but, I stopped, and I do think in stopping drinking, your identity shifts, even though I wasn't reliant on it, it changed, how I related to my ex-husband.
Fran: It changed what activities I was doing. It changed who I was hanging out with. So I think the identity sort of naturally shifted with those kind of two parallels going together. And then, yeah, there is that state of transcendence that high that you get that, dang, am I creative? When I'm smoking pot. So there was certainly this new identity of how things are really clear to me.
Fran: I'm thinking clear, I'm more creative in my thoughts and. Yeah, absolutely. That's an interesting question. I don't know that I thought of it in that capacity, but certainly there was, an identity shift in the pot smoking and, who I started to become for sure.
Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I it's something I explore a lot on the, on the podcast is identity. And so I'm always kind of curious what like, yeah, the initial kind of lynchpins are that, that start people on that because that was a huge thing for me is, you know, I just, I at that time, I didn't really realize it until I was in the middle of it later on.
Jacob: But, I really needed a lot more time to be introspective and, like, safe where I'm at with just me for a long time and explore what I'm going through and what thoughts I have that are reoccurring and what are my patterns and why. Why are they like that? And do I want them to be like that? And you know, you know, so exploring why it is we do the things that we do.
Jacob: And for me, I don't know, cannabis cannabis was immensely helpful for that at least, you know, for me. So, Yeah. Yeah. So, can we talk a little bit more about the, the somatic stuff that you've done? So for, for people who have never heard that word, can we just talk a little bit more about kind of like feeling into our body, the breathwork side of things?
Jacob: I want to explore that a bit more with you.
Fran: Sure. So I think somatic does mean of the body. So I think how I relate to men in this capacity, because I think when people are like, no, I need you to be in your body. I need you to feel it. You're like, what the. I don't know what that means necessarily. So, how I kind of relate it, and I understood it because I was have been out of my body and still and back and forth there.
Fran: So let's say you're walking on a trail. And in Tucson, where I was living, there are trails and there are deadly animals everywhere. And so I remember this one time I was walking and I thought I saw a rattlesnake, which was not uncommon. And I remember I got all these, like, jitters and I felt prickly and weird and scared.
Fran: And then I realized my brain was like, Fran, it's not a snake, it's a stick. And then I, my body immediately reacted and calmed down and rationalized. And so I thought, dang, my body's actually reacting first, and then my brain is coming in hot second, and my brain is actually convincing my body of its reaction. So naturally, as humans, mammalian brains, our body is our brains are not wired for like growth and joy and happiness.
Fran: Like it's it's wired to probably keep you angry and safe. Yeah. So you got to do a little work to, you know, work with who we are as humans. And so, that was really prolific for me for some reason, because what I realized was we are experiencing that process in any capacity, but we are so disconnected from our bodies that we have to have those jolts of anger, those dopamine headsets, cortisol rushes for us to feel anything because we're so disconnected from who we are, what we're thinking about, what we're feeling and and also understanding, like how cool it is that your body is like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Fran: And then you're like, no, no, we're cool, we're cool. And like, you can be a team. It's not you're not against each other. And that relates so much to our genitals, too, because we we're not you know, it's your your your brain is your largest sex organ followed by your genitals. But they're like I think of them as like a coach quarterback situation where they're kind of a two way street.
Fran: They're talking back and forth to coaches and calling all the calls, and the players are calling all the plays. So, it's a it's a two way street and we're kind of communicating back and forth. So, if you're feeling something in their genitals and you're feeling, excitement or an erection, perhaps. Hey, am I excited right now?
Fran: Or are these neural pathways, these nervous system pathways in my body? Could I be scared? Is it possible? So. So then I was researching and I was like, oh my gosh. The fellows had the guillotines. They had erections. So it was like they they were experiencing bodily sensations that maybe didn't necessarily go along with what society would tell them, how they would react.
Fran: And so I just found it fascinating that semantically, our bodies have such intuition. And I had been ignoring it. So when I had started on the quote unquote healing journey, at this point, I wish I was like a cooler word for it, because I think it's like so much information.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah, I know it's a spiritual awakening way too much.
Fran: Yeah. Well, I like that one. So it just it was, it just felt necessary for me to understand how my body was working. And so when, for instance, when I was healing my relationship with my parents, I would notice when I was with them, I would feel these, like, bubbled up anger things. And I was like, is this from now or is this old crap going on?
Fran: And so I would they were so wonderful and, helpful. And both of our healings and they would be I would say I feel something right now and I'm irritated and I feel angry and I don't know why. Can we talk about it? Because my body was telling me, but my brain was stuck in like sixth grade.
Jacob: Yeah.
Fran: And it just I kept doing that habitually, kept checking myself up. I feel my body. It was like that pause. You know, if something naughty happened or bad or perceived bad happened, I would pause and be like, all right, my body's telling me something. What's my logical brain going to think? So that that journey schematically really changed me.
Fran: And then, as I was going through my education again, I couldn't ignore the body because of how much I rely on my own body to feel, especially through movement. So somatic the Somatic institute where I went just seemed like a no brainer for me to to really understand the body and how we work. Because, you know, for men, when they experience their body as little people, they're able to see their erections, they're able to see their genitals.
Fran: Girls are not. Which I find just really fascinating. So there's that kind of different relationship that we gain with our, our genitals. You're you're not able to kind of hide your feelings. So I think that kind of suppresses men's emotions as well, because we're not taught men are not taught that maybe that erection doesn't necessarily mean that you're mad hot for your wife.
Fran: Maybe it's you're mad at work, and this is just, bodily, sensation you're experiencing. And, it needed to be explored for me.
Jacob: Yeah. Wow. The I think.
Fran: Is that aligning? That's it.
Jacob: Really? No. It is. It's so great. No, no, it absolutely is. I, the thing with me is I always have these, like, I'm like, oh, I have another idea to talk about. I should just mention this thing, and I'm always trying to just bleed to be less excited. Okay, so I love this in. I was listening to you talk about this.
Jacob: I think this is very fascinating. The when men get aroused, you saying that, like, sometimes it has nothing to do with the arousal. It's not really even, like, a sexual thing. It's just suddenly they find that they're erect or they're hard or whatever. And I think that we have nowhere to explore or talk about or be taught about any of these things.
Jacob: And so we're like, well, yeah, I'm I need to release something. You know, I need to I have this, like, energy that needs to, like, cool. The only way to get rid of this thing that I have is to deal with it. And now I need to release. So I can feel better. I think that's kind of like the ape brain that happens as far as men.
Jacob: So so I guess, like what my question is. What do you mean? Just because I'm a wreck, that doesn't mean that I'm that I'm, like, not aroused sexually, you know? Isn't that what that means?
Fran: Yeah. Thank you for a challenging that and bringing that up because I did drop it just casually. So in, in my studies and I heard it at the sexual health Alliance during a workshop one time, and they were talking about the nervous system regulation. You know, our nervous system is there to manage high states of arousal that is why our nervous system exists.
Fran: And so when they were talking about it, it was fight, flight, freeze fun. And I saw myself in all of those instances and all my traumas, you know, I experienced that. And then this was introduced. It was the fifth F and it was fuck or I say on podcast. Thanks to Doctor Tim, I felt I, I was interviewed by fornicate nice was the fifth s and what I was learning was so much of our nervous system is like I said before, is mixed in with all parts of our body.
Fran: And these wiring are so close together. And so it's very easy to mistake this urge that we have maybe of rage and it comes out in sexual feelings, but it's really tense. It's disconnected. There's anger behind it. If you're experiencing that sucking somebody may solve it may help, you may feel better, but that's not again, what the body's telling you something.
Fran: But what is the brain? That rational brain in here can help you out? Does it need to be having sex? Could it possibly be doing jump rope like I love jump rope? Could it possibly be spending time in the gym and it's educating. It's informing men of this possibility that not every time you feel this bubbled up, this need to release, does that mean that you are horny and you need to use your partner as a masturbatory appliance to to feel better?
Fran: So it to me has been very helpful and obvious when talking with men that, hey, you may be in a state of the fifth F in this nervous system arousal right now. And a lot of the folks I deal with, I work with, I've have the pleasure of working with are dealing with, compulsory issues. So learning that.
Fran: Whoa, hey, this may be a way for me to manage a high state of arousal, whether that's anger, whether that's rage. Rather, that's, anxiety. And, you know, to I think with boys, I believe that the penis becomes that conduit for emotion. Sexuality is praised when you're a boy, but emotions are not. So again, your body is telling you these emotions through erections as a little person, but you have no idea.
Fran: You're like, oh, they're nocturnal, or they're natural erections that are happening to you throughout the day, but really, they are conduits of emotions. And it's, I love books. The existential importance of the penis, by Daniel Water, I think,
Jacob: What a brilliant name for a book. I like that, right.
Fran: And it's so cool because it talks about how emotionality is not explored in In Young Boys and Men. And then we're all pissed that all these men are having issues with sex. And it's like, y'all, we didn't give them any framework for expressing their emotions. And the one thing that does express emotions, their penis is telling them, hey, you know, like, help me.
Jacob: Yeah.
Fran: And so they're relying on sex as a way to release that valve rather than understand it. And it's, hey, like, I love sex as much as the next person. So I want you having sex when you want it, you know? But as long as you've got that intention, as long as you're in control, quote unquote, of your intention of sex, that's what I want.
Fran: So if you want to knock out a not like great, but as long as the person you're communicating with that about that, you know, it's not to be pathologizing men and sex. I just want you to understand how it is you could be coping, strategizing, dealing with things, seeing it to your advantage. Disadvantage. How is it helping you or how is it hurting you and just understanding how it is your body?
Fran: So if you're coming home and you're feeling like God, I could just, you know, have sex with my wife and you're feeling rage underneath, it's like, hey, take that pause. Maybe I can do some pendulum and some breathwork. Maybe I can go play with my kids, play sports, something, and then come back to yourself and say, am I ready for connected, intimate sex?
Fran: And again, I don't need you to have connected intimate sex every time. But if you are, if you are aware of some of your compulsory habits, or if you are aware of hey, why is there rage associated with, intimate moments? Those kind of things? I think it would be, a great service to yourself to understand, how your, your penis sort of plays a role in managing high states of arousal.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah, you laid that out really well. I feel like that makes a lot of sense. I mean, how we're basically confused about our emotions, you know, like, we think we know we're feeling like. Yeah, here's how I, you know, solve this difficult emotion is by getting this completion or something. But it's really like, so far back, it's really not even the signal that's being trying to, you know, trying to be communicated there.
Jacob: Right. Can I ask you a little bit and I'm sorry to interrupt. Where are you going? To say something there, please. No, sorry. Can we can we talk a little bit more about, I mean, I want to say just really right on the same track that are talking about. But shame and infidelity, I think, is kind of like what I'm flirting with in my mind.
Jacob: You know, I know, and we can explore. Feel free to ask me any more questions if you think that it's helpful for people to listen to you. But, I've had a lot of infidelity in my past where I was unfaithful. And even when I was young, like, even in high school, I would do this, and then I would just be.
Jacob: I remember, like, my mom kind of like, makes fun of me, but, I, I would be like, I would do this, and I would, I would betray that someone that I love. And I would be so confused. I would just be bawling my eyes out for days, for days, and I would just be in the shower and I'm just, why do I do this?
Jacob: So confused? Like, why did I do that? I didn't want to do that. And and I'm like, well, much because I was drinking alcohol and thought, but it's the alcohol and blah blah blah. It took me later on in life to, you know, unpack things from childhood that I had packed away and, you know, helped me out and whatever.
Jacob: But, I think that it was so easy for me to find excuses back then, you know, blame. Here's why it's her fault. Here's why it's normal. Here's what all these guys, around are doing that sort of stuff, too. So it's just normal around here, blah, blah, blah. And so I guess, I guess I kind of like, you know, lay that vulnerability out there as maybe, a walkway to explore this a little bit more.
Jacob: So anybody who's listening who has dealt with infidelity, whether male or female, whatever side of that you're on, can we explore maybe, like, so maybe if you're answering me, you know, I'm in the shower and I was at a high school, and I'm like, why am I doing this? Like what? What would maybe be your conversation afterwards to help me explore why it is that I'm doing these things that I wake up and I feel shameful about or I, you know, I sorry for the lack of term, but, you know, busted nut and then I'm like feeling horrible about myself and feeling just shame.
Jacob: You know, that has been my experience in the past. Why is that?
Fran: I think in my experience, from what I'm seeing, I think we lack vocabulary for getting what it is that we want. Okay. And there's, you know, a lot of folks have been have heavy hearts and have been hurt by infidelity. And I am absolutely, alongside you, I can relate. I absolutely get turned on by, infidelity and married men.
Fran: For sure. And so I, I think that the men that I work with do not have the vocabulary to experience the sexual life that they would like to lead. And lying tends to be the easiest route. And what I mean by that is a lot of the men that I work with adore their partners, and they are continuing to step out.
Fran: And whether that is a nervous system regulation issue, whether that is an attachment wound, whether that is a trauma issue, and then let's not pathologize everything I want to know, what do you what are you getting out of this? Who do you feel like when you are stepping out? What what kind of sex are you having when you are stepping out?
Fran: What what drives this compulsory are what drives this behavior? Because there are so many parts of us that are so erotic that we push down so far and don't allow ourselves to access. And so when it comes up, it's like, oh my gosh, this is a huge problem. And then we do it 47 more billion times because we are trying to avoid it.
Fran: But it's like the purple elephant. If somebody says, don't look at the purple, think about a purple elephant, you're going to think about it. So it's it's it's a, a big answer. And I think there can be trauma stuff. Attachment stuff. You watched your dad do it. I think, you could be turned on by stepping out.
Fran: I think you can feel a to be a different type of person when you are experiencing those moments. And I would I would really encourage you to give yourself grace because I think our society, prioritizes partnership and long commitments. And, you know, if somebody has been married 30 years, that's success. And so also, I just talked about this, on another podcast I was on in a book I was reading, the NBA, I think it was plans, trips when the fellows are out, an away games and they plan activities where men can step out on their wives.
Fran: And so it's, there's like camaraderie or they bring women along and they, they all know what's happening and they plan it. And if you're not participating, it may be it may have been the NFL, the NBA, NFL, somebody. And so it's accepted in our culture. So and then also it's kind of so interesting the kind of how infidelity is thought about too.
Fran: Because when someone's stepping out and there's that other person, their relationship status is none of their business. Right. So like, if, if I was seeing a man who was married, his relationship status is not my business. He could be in an open marriage. He could have communicated it. You know, there's so many kind of depths and, resentments there that I think societally, we're not kind of taught how to understand or handle.
Fran: And again, these are my opinions. These are readings. These are, understandings of the experiences that I have had. And they're not correct. It's just one perspective. But, I would encourage you to give yourself compassion and explore why it is you're up to what you're up to.
Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's helpful. I mean, it definitely it was in my younger years and it took me definitely, a lot of exploring myself. Luckily for me, I guess I got, like, massively obsessed with identity and in psychology and, like, figuring out how I took in these sorts of things. But, I do think it's, it's helpful to just to kind of hear people exploring it.
Jacob: And, you know, I guess any anybody listening who feels that they're like, they're in that same boat of like, why am I doing this again? Dude, you know, it's I hear you, brother. You know, it is like that. But I think that noticing it or recognizing and not like, even numbing out those feelings of, wait, I just did something that I don't really want to do again, you know, like even recognizing that thought right there, I think is really an open door, right?
Jacob: You know, and then we can kind of start exploring it and diving deeper into the feelings of what actually is happening in my body right now. And why do I think by doing that, I'm going to relieve whatever stress I may be feeling. You know?
Fran: Exactly. I think there was a study once where men and women were asked to go into an empty room, and they were given like a phone or a button, and they were asked for a certain amount of time to just be by themselves. And so many people couldn't sit for a minute just with their thoughts. They didn't have a phone, they didn't have a TV, a distraction.
Fran: So a lot of us are scared of our thoughts. I know I used to be, but you can only grow as much as you are honest with yourself. So now I'm like, oh my gosh, Fran, how honest can you get with yourself? Because that's when growth happens. So I want to know, like, why are you being naughty? What are you up to?
Fran: Why are you up to it becoming your best friend? Because if you're thinking like, gosh darn it, I've done it again, you're going to be mad at yourself and then you're going to do it again. And then also I have compassion. So if the client continues to be up to what they're up to, that's okay. They're also exploring themselves too.
Fran: So they're finding out, hey, why why am I doing this? Do I need this? Am I comfortable with this? Is it my ADHD? Is it, different components of ourselves, and it's it's not about pathologizing. It's really about becoming our best friend and understanding why you're up to what you're up to, I think.
Jacob: No, I agree, I think that's well said. Can I ask more about the ADHD thing? I heard you mention that as well earlier. What? How would having ADHD cause you to be unfaithful in a relationship or have compulsive sex behaviors?
Fran: Sure. I think with, neurodivergent Psy and having ADHD myself, I think that I also struggle with frontal lobe compulsory issues, decision making, getting enough dopamine, dopamine, cortisol, all those hormones we are seeking those. And for somebody with ADHD to be at a quote unquote normal level of dopamine, how I've understood it is we reach for more because that we're we're lower on dopamine, so we're reaching higher for, quote unquote normal state.
Fran: And so if, a sexual encounter running kicks, that dopamine, you know, their ADHD feels a little bit more satisfied. And again, as I understanding those neural pathways. So it's like, am I can I be doing something different with this compulsive behavior? And it's like another thing is like sexual transmutation. I want to want to encourage fellows like, give yourself some credit here, like use this sexual energy, I use this frustration, use whatever it is you've got going on to better your job, to better your friendships, to better yourself, to better understand others.
Fran: And not taking it so much as this threat. I always said that I will never let someone else's inadequacies affect my sex life for the rest of my life. Like that's insane. I'm too competitive for that. So, if you've got a habit going on, I want you to be competitive and be like, is this helping me or hurting me?
Fran: And how can I work with it? And do I like it? Like, what do I love about it? There's so many fellows who love the cheating aspects and it's like, okay, you can like that. And is it helping your partner? Is it being kind to your partner? And probably not. So maybe you should not be with your partner, and you can create the vocabulary and the words to structure to have an open relationship.
Fran: I have so many fellows who, a lot of times, you know, sexual compatibility, you may never align. A lot of the fellows I work with love a lot of sex. They love different kinds of sex, they love novelty, and they've married a partner who maybe isn't that interested in it. And you can only encourage change in someone so much.
Jacob: Yeah.
Fran: And so I don't think, dissolved relationship is a failure. I, I am team fella in front of me. So if he, you know, and in the book, the Myth of sex Addiction, there was a fella who was married a few times, and he came in and in this, vignette, and he came in to the, he cheated on his wife, and he had been cheating on her a lot, and she brought him in for sex addiction to a therapist.
Fran: And the therapist was like, you are addicted to sex. He had sex addiction problems. But, he broke up with her. He met a woman. They had a polyamorous open relationship, and he was happily partnered and exploring his sexuality for till the end of time. And he didn't feel that sex, quote unquote, addiction issue. There was none of that.
Fran: But he built a relationship that worked for him with the vocabulary that he had learned to develop this, this new identity with himself. And so it was like, my God, you were a sex addict from this point of view. And then you developed vocabulary. You got into a relationship that felt safer, different for you, and then you were able to explore yourself sexually.
Fran: So maybe you're just not with the right person.
Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's really good. I think that's so good. Yeah. Like you're trying to, like, force yourself to fit into a box that, you know, everyone has told you that's the box. You should be like you should. This is how it works, and you should be exactly like this. But then you find yourself.
Jacob: It doesn't seem like I'm fitting in this box that well. And I keep having these, you know, situations and urges and my needs are not being met, you know, I think that really is great. You know, instead of shaming ourselves for not being more like society may want us to be, or we think society tells us we should be or whatever, finding ways to explore like how we really are.
Jacob: And it turns out on the other side, it sounds like there's plenty of other people out there who who might, you know, speak our language. Right.
Fran: 100%. And I went through this with my divorce after I was divorced. I have had so much fun sexually for the last seven years. I mean, I had a boyfriend, I've not committed to anybody. And I didn't know these parts of myself existed. And so it's like, are you in the wrong relationship, the wrong spot, the wrong predicament.
Fran: And if you and I'm not encouraging everybody to break up and ignore, of course, what it is you're up to all that stuff. But I certainly learned parts of myself that I'm so grateful that I got to explore, because I stepped outside of maybe what was expected of me.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. I think everyone needs to do that. You know, we're all, we're all on our own paths, so that's for sure.
Fran: Yeah.
Jacob: Can I can I ask you a little bit more about, I think I want to kind of bridge us into I love to talk about, like, masturbation and porn.
Jacob: Keeping in mind, you know, our single people are people in relationships where, you know, porn is maybe an issue in their relationship, but also just our single guys who maybe they're in the boat that I was talking about where, you know, it's kind of weird shame cycle where you think you want this, and then you, you and then you, you masturbate and you're like, oh, I wish I didn't do that.
Jacob: It's kind of this weird shame thing. I think that's a fairly common thing with a lot of men. So yeah, I guess just porn. Porn and masturbation in the modern world. What it. How do you talk about that and how do you explore that subject?
Fran: Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think there is opportunity and porn erotic material helps a lot of people. When men have access to erotic material, sexual violence decreases. And I think that's really hard to ignore. I also think that folks who are relying on porn may not be able to have an emotional relationships with folks, and that is okay.
Fran: So if they are relying on porn as a way of connection and intimacy, and they are maybe not societally attractive, maybe they don't feel confident with their genitals. Maybe there's all these things. I'm glad that they're experiencing pleasure. Maybe they're not meant to be in a partnered relationship. So some of the things about porn I want us to celebrate, I think it shows a great diversity of bodies.
Fran: I think it shows a great diversity of relationship, connections that you can have. It shows sexual identity to the nth degree. There are so many beautiful opportunities. And seeing this and then their ideas, so their erotic ideas, porn is and is ideas, not information. Unfortunately, with society we are using it as information. You know, the fellas that look at dark porn are dark to begin with.
Fran: They have those dark tendencies to begin with. The porn doesn't make them dark. So a lot of the kind of ideas that we have around porn are shameful, are bad. You know, if you wanted to, masturbate when you were a kid, it was when nobody was home. It was quick. You hid magazines or your stash. Wherever there is a lot of shame around that.
Fran: I think there was a study. I can't remember the numbers, but most parents in the 80s didn't want their really, their children to have healthy relationships with masturbation. And so that's kind of my age group. So I was taught that masturbating was not a positive. And then you throw in naked bodies of people you don't know on the internet.
Fran: It's like, oh my God, nothing's going to nothing's going to help you when you self-pleasure. But anyways, I've gone on a tangent about why it's good. Obviously it's not helpful in a lot of ways. I think it, gets in the way of nervous system regulation. I think people are reliant on it. It's not the naked bodies that were in front of them that they are all into.
Fran: It's that feeling that they're getting. So, it's that feeling. It's you don't have a sex problem. You have a, I believe, a nervous system dysregulation problem. If you are going to porn in moments of, sadness, depression. And again, I'm not trying to pathologize everything. You just got to be aware of what you're up to and why you're up to it.
Fran: Because if you're bored and you masturbate like, great, but if you're bored a lot and you're masturbating a lot, like find something else to do. So it's just kind of understand and, you know, we have problems with there's opportunity with balance and our culture and understanding balance. But my relationship to porn is there are there is opportunity and it I think it's wonderful to understand why what type of porn we are watching, if we are watching it.
Fran: I'm really curious. I always ask fellows what kind of porn are you watching? And, I heard that sex, sex where people are pretty, they don't tell the truth too often. And so I find that I have to express a lot of my, kind of deep, personal moments to get fellas in front of me to talk.
Fran: So I will share with them the kind of porn that I would I am interested in, and then that gets them talking. I also want to know, like when you orgasm, when you're watching porn, like, at what point do you orgasm? And it's usually there's some kind of erotic thread in that. So I, I think we can learn about ourselves and the type of porn that we watch.
Fran: And the type of, erotic excitement that we experience, and then understand our reliance, our dependency on it. I've kind of gotten off on a tangent, and I haven't totally answered the relationship portion of it, but no, no.
Jacob: No, no. And feel free to bridge it in. I mean, that's that's the difficult part about my questions is I sometimes just put subjects out there and like, close the door. I throw them into an empty room and then close the door on you like you figure out how to talk about that.
Fran: It was wonderful.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I think that was immensely helpful. I really love the the, you know, you didn't just make porn a bad thing. I feel like you you pointed out some, like, very valuable points about about this, this experience. You know, this is not a it's not only one way. And I think that the conversation has kind of this slingshot effect of, like, we as soon as we start talking about it, it goes into these like, well, porn, it's bad and like masturbation, you should be ashamed.
Jacob: And it's like, I get it, but you can't really move a lot from there. And so I think you definitely offered some, some helpful perspectives. Can I ask you, you know, if someone's in a relationship now, see that they're listening, and, porn is an issue. Maybe one person doesn't watch porn. Maybe one person watches a lot of porn.
Jacob: And they can't really seem to find a balance or kind of land on landing on the same page. Maybe they're having trouble landing on the same page with just kind of the porn subject. Have you have you had these instances or, you know, do you have any advice or anything that comes to mind for that situation?
Fran: Yeah. The I think the usually in my situation there is a lot of porn watching. So it kind of takes the place of the, the relationship. That connection. So and in your question, I'm kind of envisioning, you know, somebody is watching porn, a little bit and their partner's like, I don't love that. And they feel envy and jealousy.
Fran: Maybe, I would explore feelings around, I would, I would be I'm really interested in, understanding sort of the jealousy feelings. Like, is this in the partner? What they're feeling, is this a religious thing? Is this a cultural thing that, you know, girls are conditioned to not watch porn? You know, and also porn on the addictive component.
Fran: Why aren't women struggling with watching too much porn if it's really the porn? So I, I always get kind of curious about that, too. So, but, you know, if it's, if there's a relationship and they're not meeting eye to eye on porn, I would expand the erotic content. So I would ask maybe if the person is interested in listening to erotica stories, I would ask them, maybe if they're interested in reading erotica together, I would encourage them to explore and expand their own sexual menu.
Fran: So maybe looking at a yes no maybe list, I have that on my Instagram, or a Bdsm kind of guide where you can pick and choose from from sexual experiences, and kind of expand your sexual menu, because if people are feeling pigeonholed into this is the only way of pleasure. And they're relying on porn, you know, that's not helping them.
Fran: So if if you and your partner have intimate moments and you aren't necessarily interested in having sex that night, penetrative sex, you would say no, I don't want to do it. However, for my model and my experience, I always want to be in a the yes model yes mode, so I'm not maybe necessarily interested in penetrative sex, but I could do a massage or I'm not necessarily interested in a massage, but I love oral sex, so let's do that.
Fran: I'm down for that. So it's kind of expanding your sexual menu to give you more options. So if porn watching, if you're relying on that, are you having the sex that you want to begin with? I find that a lot of guys are relying on porn because they're not having the sex that they want to begin with.
Fran: So I think it's and and men are notoriously known for having sex when they don't want to have it. Men are not credited for that, but they're notoriously known for. So they're having, because of pressure and society. They are having sex and they're either proving their masculinity or they're proving that, you know, they're dicks, a dildo or whatever society shoves down your throat.
Fran: They are seeking that. And maybe they don't want to have sex. Maybe they want to have different sex. Maybe they want it with a different person. Maybe they would like porn in the background while they are having sex. But we're we're men. I haven't been taught how to communicate. I don't think there once a needs. I always encourage my clients.
Fran: Put on your oxygen mask before putting on other's oxygen mask. That applies in sex. I believe in radical responsibility for everyone's orgasm. You are responsible for you. I am responsible for my orgasm. The man men in front of me are responsible for their orgasm. I certainly want it to be a partnership. And everybody's in it for everyone's pleasure.
Fran: But it's it's a two way street, and I think men are taught to, take a lot in sex, and women are taught to give and it's women are at this kind of, they're always kind of put in this label of to be threatened by porn, to be jealous of the porn performers, to be. Yeah, the whole world festers us into our roles.
Fran: You do, you see? Is that making.
Jacob: Sense? 100%. It does? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's what, What a truly free thing to break out of it, though, you know, try to find a way to, to go. Wait. Hold on. I don't have to. I don't have to do it this way just because I've always done it this way. And the people around me have, you know.
Fran: Right. And and to like with porn, let's say you watch 15 minutes of and and you're like, you know what? I'm just not feeling that as much. Cut back like watch seven minutes and then finish out not watching porn. So just try to pinslate, you know, if you think porn is bad, you're going to use it more.
Fran: It's just like, so you got I think we need to become friends with erotic material, and accept that it's around. Or, you know, we live in this puritanical society that is hypersexualized, and it's right on our phones. So if if you're saying it's bad, it's terrible. My God, I want to do it.
Jacob: Yeah, right.
Fran: You know.
Jacob: It's a feature of our society.
Fran: Yeah, yeah. So, I personally think it's befriending it.
Jacob: Yeah. I'm, I'm. I was just the. I was kind of, like, laughing to myself, just thinking, like, if I was wearing. We could wear shirts. You could sell shirts to say I'm responsible for my own orgasm. That's if.
Fran: You hope that aligns. And, you know, I'm a tough cookie. And I, the fellas, I work with our tough cookies. So I certainly am used to our speak. And I mean it from a compassionate lens because I have answered. I'm a survivor myself. I've answered right. Rape crisis hotlines. I have, then, you know, in these sane rooms with rape survivors, and then the same point I want to create a opportune opportunistic narrative here because porn is around to stay and to constantly jab at it and see it as a threat and helping anybody.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. What are you gonna do? Pushing under the rug? You know, you're right. Yeah, I, I think that you've positioned yourself in such an amazing spot. I mean, like, I was listening to you on other podcast and stuff and you're talking to s I talked to some military guy for a while, like you're putting yourself in, right in the middle of, like, men's conversations.
Jacob: It sounds like you're pretty familiar there. Like, you've already been, like, in this workout world, in this, in this, like, just more masculine place. And so it's very cool that you didn't like any sound, a way to kind of, like, come back in and realize that you can be a, healing voice in those environments. And, when you could have.
Jacob: I mean, you could have taken so many other routes. You know, I started this podcast saying like, why don't you why do you not hate men, you know, I mean, and what a powerful thing that you've done is to like, you know, you've you've had this Phoenix experience of like coming in on the other side to be this, like, very powerful voice in these rooms.
Jacob: And I imagine that you're helping a lot of people for you, and I imagine you're really making a genuine impact, that's for sure. You know, you're talking about stuff that a lot of people feel weird talking about in rooms, that nobody's talking about that stuff, you know.
Fran: For sure. Thank you. I certainly hope so. And they're helping me.
Jacob: Yeah. Something very powerful that is that I jotted on my notes, that I heard that you that you did, and I just. I would love to to hear you share more about it. You used Bdsm to heal from your rape experience. Wow. I mean, I when I heard you say that, I was like, whoa, I wouldn't have ever even thought about that.
Jacob: But it totally makes sense with, like, cognitive. There's so many, like, psychology related things where I'm like, wow, that totally what a powerful way of healing, you know? So sorry, but will you will you tell the listeners about that experience and kind of what it was like for you?
Fran: Yeah. So, you know, I think in sex it's such a power exchange. And I find that to be just beautifully fascinating. Because I have been at the mercy, I always say, of misbehaving men since I was a kid. Whether it was a coach, whether it was a dad, whether it was, a, family I would babysit for, the men would misbehave.
Fran: And I always felt again at that, at the mercy, at the at the, at the mercy of their pleasure. And again, I, I'm too competitive for that. And, you know, I don't know if I'm a strong Italian women, my ancestors or my mom, taught me, but I, I never felt, really disadvantaged. I always kind of knew that there was an inadequacy there.
Fran: And so through that, I, I really wanted to take my power back. And I often wonder, being a rape survivor, that if we cuddle rape survivors so that they stay victimized. I, I felt coddled. I wish I had not been as coddled and raped survivorship. I think there was a lot of opportunity for me to see the value in my own sexuality, the bio psychosocial elements, hundreds of elements of my sexuality.
Fran: But to focus on the man and the trauma that's been done to me, done for me, was a disservice. I think there is so much more to me in sex than, than that. I felt like I was minimized to that or something. And, so anyway, long story longer, the power exchange really turned me on, and I'm very kinky.
Fran: I really love, I love opposite, so my hair is blond usually, but I love blond hair, dark eyes. I love, dark eyebrows. I love that I am feminine, but I am muscular. I love that I am kinky, but I volunteer a lot. I am constantly drawn to opposites that they turn me on like crazy. And so with Bdsm, I saw this opportunity for an opposite.
Fran: There. I was like, all right, so if I go into sex and I am telling the man in front of me what to do, I'm in control regardless of what he's doing. I have told him to do that. Where in the rape situation I was at the mercy of at him, or I felt at the mercy of him.
Fran: So with power exchange and Bdsm that the sub is actually versus the Dom is actually in control of the situation. The most. And so I thought, I knew it, I knew it, I knew the inadequacy. Not that the Dom's inadequate, but I knew that there was something there to being that submissive and being somebody that someone wanted like that is power to me.
Fran: Like you, no one can use me because that's telling me that I that I have something to give for somebody to use, that that's a suit. You know, society teaches women that, that they can be used. I how can anyone use me? That's for me to give.
Jacob: Yeah.
Fran: So I give myself in every situation, every sexual situation, regardless of the intention of the person in front of me. I am there for me. My pleasure. And I don't think women are taught that. I think we are taught that we can be used and men have the power to use. And there's this if if there's a give and take in a society, there's no consent.
Fran: The consent doesn't exist. If men are constantly taking and women are constantly giving, there's no equal partnership. And as kids, girls are, you know, boys are taught to conquer take the virginity car, whatever the heck that means. And girls are taught to withhold, not be too slutty, but it's like that. That's how consent is a problem I give and take.
Fran: Anyways, the Bdsm, it was this opportunity for me to have the the power to both give and take and I find that to be extremely powerful.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. I mean yeah, it reminds me of, you know, you've heard and I was, I was trying to say, I think cognitive behavioral therapy, it may be a different one. Maybe it's eMDR, but, you know, you're basically, like, in a safe environment. You're recreating something that normally you would it would put your body in this, you know, dissociative state potentially, or or some state that, you know, when you feel it, it's not the most comfortable thing, you know, you want to get away from it, right?
Jacob: But if you can, if you can bring that up in a safe environment, I know, I think it's eMDR. Where's where? You know, you use, like, tapping in these sorts of things. You kind of bring up the memories and then, you know, you kind of become aware of your senses. Okay, I'm thinking about that. It's not actually happened.
Jacob: Look at I'm actually safe, you know? Look, I can feel my getting into my skin, that sort of thing, you know? So to me, it kind of sounds like you use kind of some of those similar techniques in the Bdsm world in a way. I mean, does that sound right to you? I mean, was that kind of your experience?
Jacob: Were you like, what was that like for you in that experience? Like what was coming up in your mind for you? Were you having scary things? Or you're like, okay, no, I'm I got to push through this. Or was it like a just pleasure for you the whole time or I got to know, what was that like for you.
Fran: Yeah. Well, it feels really honestly aligned because I know so much about sex. Yeah, that I love to tell and ask for what I want. Like, I think that is so hot and powerful. And I, again, I think women are kind of taught to not embrace their sexuality. Yeah, in a lot of ways, or at least in my experience.
Fran: And so, it's just been a really powerful way to take ownership over my sexuality and, and ask for what it is I want. And. No, exactly. I cannot tell you, like, there was one fella that I worked with, and, he was receiving oral sex from his wife for the last five years, and he said it was terrible.
Fran: And he was like, so you're asking me to go to my wife and tell her I need more suction when you are sucking my penis, I need all these things. And I was like, absolutely, absolutely. That is that it is your job to know what it is. You know, what it is that you want and sex. And, so is it just.
Jacob: An awkward conversation? Yeah.
Fran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jacob: But hey, you know what? If an awkward conversation is going to make your marriage better than you should have it, you know?
Fran: Right. And it's like, why are you waiting five years to get the oral sex that you want? We are so shameful of even one in stuff like, I love a good golden shower. Like if a fella urinates on me, I think that is like the hottest thing. And so to ask for that, I love asking for that, I love it.
Fran: And then if somebody yucks my, I couldn't care less if they're not into it. Whatever.
Jacob: Yeah.
Fran: So it's there's power in knowing your pleasures. There's power and knowing it is what it is that you want.
Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's freedom I mean and we're. Yeah I love that saying, you know, don't yuck someone else's yum because we are all so different. You know, we're all human and there's so many ways we're so much the same thing. But man, we all had such, you know, down to the second, such different experiences growing up as a teenager, you know, our adult lives like, yeah, it's just, you know, I always repeat this, but around us always says, you know, we're all we're all just walking each other home, you know?
Jacob: And as much as I love that, you know, we're also the same and it's all all one and etc., but, you know, we're all individuals and certain things make other individuals tick, you know, like the thing that works for you may not work for me. And, you know, there's no shame in, in either of it, you know.
Fran: Yeah. And it's just opening up the comments. You just got to open up. You got to rip the bandaid off and you got to talk about it. And again, you will learn is your partner is totally. Yeah. By your your love. You know, I, I can't remember the fella in the news recently who's was just cross-dress dressing as a woman.
Fran: And how much embarrassment that poor man has felt from this situation. And had it just been. Oh, interesting. Tell me about that. Rather than, like, a whole news thing like that. It blows my mind. It is.
Jacob: Weird.
Fran: You.
Jacob: Know. Have you seen the movie? Have or read the books The Hunger Games?
Fran: I haven't, but I'm familiar. Okay.
Jacob: Yeah, well. Well, they have basically this, like this district one is kind of like the they're the rich people. They call the shots and they wear like, these elaborate outfits and whatever. And their talk shows are like that, like, it's just very detached from the, the real world of what everybody else is living. And, you know, they're like, hey, you coal miners go like, fight to the death.
Jacob: And we will just be sipping our tea in our, like, expensive outfits or whatever. It's we're just it's just, I don't know, it made me think of that. Yeah. Some people have district one minds far too often.
Fran: And that's okay too. I remember I was I was talking to a fella, he was in the military, and he was gay. He's gay. And, it was, you know, 15 years ago. So it wasn't as widely accepted or understood. And I said, you know, do you have a hard time with, you know, the people who don't accept you in the military or whatever?
Fran: And he said, no, because if if I judge them and hated them for for how they're behaving towards me, that would, you know, be exactly what they're doing for me. And so, that really stuck out to me. So if there are ignorance is if there are naivete is if there are things people just aren't aware of.
Fran: No harm no foul either.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. What a good perspective. And what a powerful what a powerful man I like that I really like his answer. I think that's something. Okay. We are getting up here in time, but I do want to just talk about this, but, Yeah, time flies when you're having fun, that's for sure. I want to talk about, you have some work as a death doula.
Jacob: Can I talk about, can we explore that a little bit? Like. Like why? Why do you do that? And what's that like? You know, I always think that that's, like, such a, impactful position to, for, for one to put themselves in, you know, what's that like for you.
Fran: Thanks. What sort of connected to sex? I think sex and death, they're they're opposites. They're both states of transcendence. You can't have one without the other. Medically. You have to have sex to have birth. And then to be alive, you have to die. And so I couldn't get past that connection. And when death is happening, intimacy happens.
Fran: So they did a study one time where a classmate, died for, a group of kids. And those kids, that weekend, they found that most of them are. A lot of them, had sex. More so than they had weekends before. And so in death, we seek intimacy. And that that is blown my mind, that connection and how many?
Fran: You know, in my cases in hospice care, I often, do in home hospice, volunteering. So, you know, right now, I, I'm volunteering with a woman, and, she has a daughter. That's their situation. But most often times there's a husband and wife, and there are there are intimacy needs that are not being understood or addressed or appreciated.
Fran: And so in this whole sex and death connection, I realized that, in my death doula ship, I can be, kind of a go between, facilitating intimacy for either the person at end of life. You know, just because you're dying, does that mean you can't use a vibrator? Right. And if you're in a hospital situation, you know where where you are, if you're differently abled and you can experience pleasure.
Fran: I think that is one of the saddest things on the planet. You know, if you're paralyzed and you can't experience pleasure, you can't masturbate. And that is withheld from you. I, I think that is so sad. So there is just I just saw an opportunity and and death doula ship and intimacy and understanding people how they want to be touched and death, how they want to be cared for and death, how they want to be loved.
Fran: Has really stuck out to me because there are so many lonely, dying people. And, to be an intimate, understanding person has really meant a lot to me. Because a lot of people want to talk about, connection when they're dying. So, yeah, I think the husbands have really have really changed me because there are sexual, I don't want to say needs, but there are sexual ones from men, who have dying wives.
Fran: And I think it's a disservice to not understand that.
Fran: And to shape it.
Jacob: Like we said. Yeah.
Fran: 100% is me. I get teary eyed because it, I don't know, underprivileged, marginalized people. Or vice. My soft spot.
Jacob: Of course. I mean, you probably hold a lot of a lot of space for them in in ways that they can't thank you with enough with enough words, you know, yeah, that's pretty powerful.
Jacob: You know, connection that, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, as you were healing, you know, you didn't want to be just seen as, like, I'm a survivor. I'm just a rape victim, you know? And that's who you go through the rest of your life, as you know. Now, it's, you know, it's a feature. And you and you, you found ways to almost wear it proudly for maybe lack of better words there.
Jacob: I found that I've heard spiritual teachers talk kind of the same thing. You know, they visit people when they're dying, and everyone who visits them just sees them as a dying person. And it's like they walk in the room and it's just, oh, hey, how you doing, dying person? You know, in a lot of times the, the connection is not really there for that person who is who is dying.
Jacob: And, you know, sometimes they just want to like, talk about whatever, you know, they just want to be a human talking to another human or man. You know, you're my friend visiting me at the let's just talk about our lives together, you know, you know, to be to be condensed down, to be just a dying person in a room.
Jacob: And then all your loved ones are just visiting you and seeing you as a dying person and not like for. And you knew me for, for 80, 90 years. Like, what about all that stuff? You know, am I not all that stuff to, you know.
Fran: Right.
Jacob: And, and so I imagine that you come into these rooms and, and give them some form of expansiveness. I don't think I have a question. I guess I'm just throwing that, that subject into a room for you and closing the door. But, have you had that experience where where people, you know, maybe you're shaking people out of just treating each other as just a dying person or just a victim of some sort?
Fran: Yeah, I think, and this isn't to. By anyone in any capacity, but I, I, I've been accused of, helping people live a little too long. They've stuck around longer. Yeah, right. Longer than they, quote unquote should have. I know I lost one patient. I guess it was this year. Who? I think that was, like four years outstayed her her welcome here on Earth, and it was brilliant.
Fran: But I think there is so much opportunity. And seeing folks, you know, not as the dying people. I think sometimes it it, is interesting to me, if, you know, people and folks in hospice care are dying and, and there's commonalities in the dying. I have not had that experience necessarily. I think sure there are.
Fran: But I want to know a little bit more than what did you regret? I want a little bit. Know a little bit more, like I should have worked less. And I'm not saying those elements in those stories are not valuable by any means. But I think it certainly can go deeper, because if you're dying, you're not. It's so hard to think.
Fran: Or at least I would think a summary of your life. Like, what did you learn? What did you regret? What? So it's it's, It's just a different conversation. When you get into intimacy, you get into love. You get into relationships, connections. Understand? Because those are that's what we're quote unquote, chasing our entire lives. And it's it's ignored and and we're and I think something to with men you know if they've had sick wives and they they leave I think it's they may not understand.
Fran: And so through this through death doula ship, through education, it's kind of expanding. Hey, you can hold space for both. You can have sickness with love and and communicate and get your needs met and honor yourself and respect the other person. There's so much like against one another almost. And there I find that there's just so much opportunity and death and, partnerships.
Jacob: Yeah. You know, one word that I'm thinking about that that's like kind of come up a couple times. This podcast is the word paradox, you know? Yeah. I think that's like so helpful. You know, it's it's not trying to deny what we're actually feeling, but allowing it to be a bit more than just what we might think it is at the beginning, you know, like, okay, for sure, having this thing, you know, and I am experiencing shame, but that doesn't mean that this whole experience is just shame based, you know, like, let's explore it more and maybe, yeah, there's some shame in there and we can explore that.
Jacob: But maybe there's other reasons why I'm, you know, doing these things or trying to to get to this. Yeah. Yeah. Paradox I think is.
Fran: Brilliant.
Jacob: A useful term there, you know.
Fran: Yeah. Thanks for letting me go off on a tangent. I'm very ethereal and heady when it comes to sex and death, and it's not totally relatable. And some folks may be like, Fran, what's happening?
Jacob: But no, I yeah, no, I think you did a great job. I because I happen to be, quite ethereal myself. And so I love some of these connections that you're making. I feel like you've pointed out a couple of things from, like, why I didn't even connect those things together at all. And that's a great point.
Jacob: And so I would assume that it's happening for listeners as well. So, I, I assume that people listening to this podcast are a bit ethereal themselves, at least in moments.
Fran: Cool. Yeah. The guests you've had on, are so super cool. So it's a privilege that I, appreciate folks considering, my ideas and and customizing them to their belief systems. So I'm not the end all be all. I certainly have a perspective that I would love to, share.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I always tell people like, it's crazy. You should never listen to any one person and just believe everything they say. You know, that's a way to live a life. So, yeah, take what resonates. You know, I think there's plenty of stuff that resonates. Or if something triggers you or something, you're like, I completely disagree with that.
Jacob: Sit with that and see what that's all about. You know, it doesn't mean, yeah, maybe, maybe you could keep your same belief, whatever. But I just think it's very interesting to notice when whether we're agreeing or disagreeing with someone like, why it is why it is that we are doing that, you know, like, yeah, transformation and change and becoming more of who we could be is, is wow, that's like one of the funniest things we could do in this lifetime, right?
Fran: Totally. That's why we're here. Yeah. Identity. Yeah. It seemed.
Jacob: Okay. Well, Fran, this has been so great. I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but, we've covered some amazing subjects. It has been such a pleasure to just dive into your work, get to learn about you. You have this time with you. Explore some of these subjects. I'm sure I'm gonna have a total blast editing this back.
Jacob: And, you know, making clips and that sort of thing as well. So, you know, thank you again. And then, you know, just before we sign off and tell everybody, have a great day. Is there anything at the tip of your tongue or anything you want to make sure you know, again, all of your info is going to be in in the bio here in the, summary notes of the show.
Jacob: And so they can go explore more of your work. Is there anything you're maybe working on in the future you want them to to check out more, or what do you got for the listeners?
Fran: I'm just great. I think my website offers a lot of resources for folks, so whether that is, books that they can reference for, for their education just to help them explore themselves. My Instagrams on there, the Instagram, the videos, or a three minute long segments of education for men. So they are snippets of interesting information or I think, interesting any way, to help fellas better understand themselves.
Fran: So I really encourage exploration, and I just hope to be alongside somebody in their in their journey of exploring themselves sexually and expand looking to. I just encourage to look into any and all things sexual. There's so much opportunity, when you really let yourself explore.
Jacob: Yeah. Amen to that. Yeah. And also your website is really mobile friendly. I found that like, it's it's an easy scroll. There's a lot of good info. It just fits in. You did a great job with the website and then anybody listening, if you don't follow Jacob from the internet, that's my Instagram handle. That's where all things junkyard love seem to live.
Jacob: I will also be tagging friends so you can check out, more of her stuff there. Her Instagram will be there. Yeah. That's great. Fran, thank you so much. This was so amazing. Listeners, if you have not drinking water today, what do you do? And you haven't drank any water, you're out of your mind, man. Hydrate.
Jacob: Stretch. Workout. Wait. What's it? Give me one, like, final workout tip. Just like anybody. Fitness moving movement, workout tip to leave everybody with gosh.
Fran: I would say it's there's a lot in form that's coming to mind. Yeah. Form. Form is important. Yeah.
Jacob: All right. That's exactly what somebody needs to hear right now. They needed to hear form. All right, well, I'm going to end this recording. Listeners love yourselves. We will see you next episode.