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In this episode of The Silvercore Podcast, Travis speaks with Brian Niska of Skeena Spey Riverside Wilderness Lodge in Terrace, BC. Brian is a fishing guide, certified fishing instructor and designated master castor and designer of the Metal Detector series of Pieroway rods.
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Fishing, spey
fishing, tips, tricks,
etiquette, and gear.
Buckle up cause that's
this week's podcast.
Tonight with Brian
Niska at the Skeena Spey
Riverside Wilderness
Lodge in Terrace, BC.
Brian is a fishing
guide, certified
fishing instructor
and designated master
castor and designer
of the Metal Detector
series of Pieroway Rod.
I've had the pleasure
of spending the last few
days, fishing the Skeena
River with Brian and his
guides here in Terrace,
and I'm excited to be
sitting down to record
a podcast with you now.
Brian, thank you very
much for taIking the
time to do this podcast.
Right on Travis,
thanks very much for
coming up to visit us.
So in the short period
of time that I've gotten
to know you, I can
tell you are extremely
passionate about fishing.
Yeah.
You know, it's something
that's always captivated
me ever since I was a
kid, I remember being
quite young, probably
three, four years old,
if that, and just,
you know, sneaking
into my grandfather
and my father's tackle
boxes and checking
out all the lures.
So, so I think
that's probably
where it started.
Really, that soon?
Yeah.
Just maybe it was the
bright colors or some
of those salmon plugs
were pretty neat, I
still remember them, so.
Yeah.
Yeah and then fly
fishing got into that
when I was about 12,
my parents bought me
in inexpensive fly
setup and away I went.
So where were you fly
fishing at 12 years old.
Well the first fish
I ever caught on the
fly was in a slough
it's called the
DeBoville Slough.
It's in, Northeast Port
Coquitlam alongside
the Pitt River there.
Okay.
And it was a Christmas
present, so it was out,
you know, literally
Christmas morning with
a little silver fly
and caught a cutthroat.
That was the first fish
I ever caught on the fly.
Wow.
Oh, that's not too bad.
Yeah.
So tell me about
this Master Castor.
That's, not exactly
an easy thing for a
person to get is it
Well that that's part
of the FFF Fly Casting
Instructor Certification.
There's three levels,
there's a basic,
the master's in the
spey instructor.
Okay.
So the master's would be
the second level of the
single hand instruction.
And currently there's
just the one level
of spey casting.
You just fish so much
that you decided, I
know what I want to
do, I want to open
up my own business.
You started in
Whistler didn't you?
Yeah.
You know, previous
to that, I was a
ski instructor.
I grew up working
at Grouse Mountain.
My aunt worked there and
so I was lucky enough to
get jobs at a young age,
started out selling ice
cream, did a variety of
jobs there, but teaching
skiing was one of them.
And so teaching fly
fishing was just same,
like an obvious extension
of that, you know.
The casting instructor
certification was
something that was
available locally
through a gentleman
named Pete Caverhill
and Pete Morrison.
These were both
master instructors.
So with the FFF, the
basic exams, are handled
by, by two masters.
Okay.
To be honest with you,
I failed the first
time because I was
like, I can cast a long
way, I'll pass this,
it's a piece of cake.
But it's really, like
a lot of instructors
exams, it's more about
being able to demonstrate
correctly, being able
to identify and explain
casting faults and, you
know, basically being
able to show beginners
proper technique.
Well, how old were you
in when you did that?
Great question.
Let's see, that
would have been
probably about 18.
18 years old?
Yeah.
Maybe 18, 19 something.
Is that common for an
18, 19 year old person
to be a designated
master castor?
Well, that was
a master's, that
was the basic.
Oh okay.
So I got that.
Okay.
So the story is, I got
the basic and I got
it prior to going to
Chile to guide down
there because I felt
that, you know, this was
going to be something
to be useful down there.
And when I came back
from Chile, then I
did the masters test.
Which was, I believe
it, I want to say the
kingdome it's the,
it was the stadium in
Washington that they,
ended up, I think it.
Yeah it's the kingdome.
It was the kingdome?
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Perfect.
Here's what I remember
about it, I'm not a
drinker, this is true.
Yeah.
I'm not a boozer at all.
When I was in Chile,
I met the owner of
a company called
Hexagraph Fly Rods.
Okay.
Now Hexagraph was
kind of a neat thing.
So bamboo is a
material that a lot
of people know about.
Sure.
And bamboo has an
exceptional feel for
casting and bamboo
has power fibers on
the outside and a
bit of a pithy core.
And there's a material
called hexagraph,
which was from
Bruce and Walker.
They're making these
big, heavy spey
roads out of it.
Okay.
And Walt Powell used his
taper, taper bars with
the hexagraph material
and sold that company
to a gentleman named
Harry Briscoe and Harry
had the Hexagraph Rod
company, and he was one
of my clients in Chile.
And you know, Harry
caught a really
exceptional fish with
me and I think that
sort of solidified
our relationship.
And you know, I
helped them out at
some trade shows
and one of the trade
shows was in Seattle.
And so I went down there
and the test is going to
be there and as it turns
out his rod builder liked
tequila and, you know, we
were down there at some.
This was like, I think
if I remember correctly,
this was like, when
grunge was really
popular in Seattle.
Sure, sure.
And we ended up at
some dive bar, drinking
tequila, hanging out
with people and you
know, the next morning
I was like, Oh shoot,
I got this test.
So what I remember
distinctly and Mike
Maxwell and Denise
Maxwell were there and
Mike was an old veteran
with this, so he knew
what my issue was.
But there I was in the
basement of the kingdome
and they have these
concrete pillars, I've
got my head pressed
against the concrete
pillars, just to get
rid of this throbbing
stinking headache
to pass this test.
And like I said,
I'm not a drinker,
this is totally not
something that would
normally happen.
Yeah.
But yeah, stupid day to
choose to be hung over.
But I did pass
the masters test,
probably barely.
And I feel like I've
put it to good use
since then so, so yeah.
And.
I don't know if I
really drank tequila
like that in my life.
You gotta learn to
condition yourself
a bit better.
Yeah.
But yeah, that was
a long time ago.
So growing up, my family
had a part share in a
fishing lodge up in the
Bonaparte Lake area.
Cool.
Lake fishing, beautiful
area, you hike in or
helicopter into it.
And as a kid growing
up, my idea of fly
fishing was, you tie a
fly on the end of the
single hand casting
rod, and you troll
that behind a rowboat
until you catch a fish.
And that's how
I fly fished for
many, many years.
And just recently I'm
being turned on to
this spey fishing.
What would draw a
person to take up
space fishing over
top of, I don't know,
just casting a spoon.
Sure.
Well, hey you had me
at the trolling cause I
grew up trolling a fly.
We used to do
family vacations
on Pennask Lake.
Right.
And there's something
really exciting about
a fast troll and the
fish just slamming
that rod and that rod
just goes like that.
Sure.
Boom.
And you know what, with
the spey, it's kind of
the same in the sense
that you're always
waiting for that take.
And it's all about the
anticipation of that take
and what you you'll often
hear people say is, Oh,
I really felt like I was
going to get one there.
And perhaps they felt
that because, you
know, the way the fly
was moving, the way
the water was nice and
smooth, whatever it was,
it's that anticipation,
that's the thing right.
And if you can go out
and fish all day, and
you spend a decent amount
of that day feeling
like you're going to
get one, you like the
water, you like the way
you're fishing it, you
know, that's the thing.
And you know, so far
as throwing a spoon, a
spoon is a great way to
cover a lot of water.
Out of all the different
techniques to fish for
steelhead spoon fishing
will allow you to
fish all of the water.
And you know, there's
something about the
wobble of that spoon
that you just can't
replicate with the fly.
Right.
And trust me, we tried
that with the flies.
Today's flies are,
you know, they're
like lures, right?
But I think the big thing
was spey casting is,
is in-between swings.
We call it a swing
while you're fishing, in
between swings, you have
the cast and some people
really get into the cast.
And if you're casting
well and you like the
water you're fishing,
I mean that's the
whole deal, right?
Right.
Unfortunately, there
are times when you
catch fish on casts that
you're not very proud of.
Sure.
I don't know if it
diminished the whole
experience, but it,
you know, it's nice
when you're casting
well and you're not
catching anything.
And you're like, yeah,
that was alright,
that was a good day.
It seems completely
foreign thing to most
people, who've spent
some time fishing, to
now learn about the
brand new way to cast
and all the different
accessories that go
along with spey fishing.
It's kind of
intimidating, honestly.
I mean, there's whole
brand new lingo and
there's all this
extra gear that you
have to get into.
What's the easiest
way for someone to
kind of dabble in
and get into this?
Well, the truth of
the matter is, there's
really no such thing
as bad equipment right
now, and lines have
come a long ways.
So you can't go wrong,
any, pretty much any
sprey rod can work as
long as you have an
appropriate line on it.
And by appropriate, I
mean, the line should
be a length that
relates properly to
both your height and
style of casting and
the length of the rod.
So in short, If you're
fishing a 12 foot
rod, a shorter head,
like a Skagit head is
going to pair better
than a long belly
line and vice versa.
If you're fishing a 15
foot rod, you're going
to want something with
a longer head because
the, you know, the
longer rod will move
more line in the sweep.
Sure.
The sweep is by the
way, the portion of
the spey cast where
load is created.
So for those listeners
that don't know spey
casting, all spey
casts start the same.
They all start with a
lift of the rod tip that
clears the line off the
water and then you have
a move, a set move and
what the set move does is
it positions the anchor
and the anchor is a fancy
way of saying, where the
line's going to be in
contact with the water.
And from there we
sweep the rod, which
is basically your
back cast, and this is
where load is created.
And load is a fancy
way of saying bend.
So we're basically
trying to put a bend in
the rod and then as we
complete the back cast,
there's not a hard stop.
Like we're single
handing, that's more
of a transition into
the forward cast.
And what we're always
trying to do is
maintain as much of
that load as much of
that bend, by keeping
tension on everything
as we transitioned
from the back cast
into the forward cast.
And the really cool thing
about it you know, and
it, to me, it has more
in common with a golf
swing within a single
hand cast, but it's all
about getting the rod to
carry the load and then
releasing that load.
So if you apply your
power too quickly, the
load isn't there for
the full length of the
forward stroke, you know,
you're not going to get
the best possible result.
So the equipment will
do the work for you when
you're casting well,
and I think we learned,
I think you've learned
that now that applying
power, I mean, you're
a big guy, hitting it
hard doesn't necessarily
give you line speed.
Totally.
Line speed is what
gives you distance.
Right.
You know, so it's all
about loop shape, which
means, what we want is
the line to go out in a
very tight pointed arrow.
And what's going to
cause the line to
take that shape is the
path of the rod tip
when it accelerates.
So if the rod tip
accelerates in a
straight line path,
then you're going to get
that nice tight loop.
If you use too much of
your top hand, chopping
wood, we might say.
Okay.
The loops going to open
up cause the rod tip now
is traveling in a convex
path, rounded like the
top of a basketball.
So it's all about
not applying the
power too quickly.
Saying something like
no power before midnight
or explaining to someone
about trying to use their
bottom hand, as opposed
to their top hand.
Right, just operate on
the fulcrum a bit better.
Yeah.
You know, at the end
of the day, just like
golf, you know, you're
going to have some of
them that don't work out
exactly the way you want.
Sure.
Right.
But it's consistency and
consistency is something
that comes with mileage
and understanding
when things aren't
working out, how to
break down the cast.
So in the case of
spey casting, the
foundation of the
house is your anchor.
So if the cast isn't
working, is your anchor
in the right spot?
So, this is just a
very simple thing.
And I bring that up
because today, when
we were on the river,
there was a where your
anchor was too far back.
Right.
And then as soon as
you made the adjustment
to put it where it
was supposed to be,
boom, the cast started
to work for you.
Totally.
Now I've noticed a
trend in the fishing
lodge up in the
Bonaparte Lake area.
One of the owners was a
lawyer, another one was,
had his own accounting
firm, another guy was
a securities trader.
And it seems that fly
fishing tends to attract
a certain type of person
or a couple of different
types of people anyways.
It seems to me from
my, sort of casual
observation, and not
in it as deep as you
are, that'll attract
people who are very
particular about the
way that they like to
have things done right.
That may be very
methodical in
their approach.
And it also seems
to attract the type
of people that just
absolutely love
being in the outdoors
and experiencing it
in as, I guess, as
rustic as possible.
Is that a fair
observation?
Yeah.
You know what I
think within fly
fishing itself, I
think that there's a
lot of differences.
Hey, I can say the same
thing within spey and
you know, if we were
to come up with some
stereotypes, let's
break it down this way.
Let's say that, you know,
when I first started fly
fishing, I really wanted
to have a fishing vest.
And when I got a fishing
vest, I wanted to fill
that vest with as many
boxes of flies and
knickknacks and this,
that, and the next thing.
I'm not sure what my
motivation was, I think
I just wanted to be
prepared, but you know,
what I learned over a
very short period of
time is that it's not
comfortable to wear a
vest full of a bunch
of crap, no matter how
important that stuff is.
And if you're trying to
spey cast that's stuff is
going to be in your way.
Now, if you're trout
fishing and someone
who, and there's
different types of
trout fishing, okay.
So if you're the type of
trout fishermen who has
a vest full of stuff,
and you know, you're,
let's say you're really
technical kind of guy.
Sure.
And very organized and
all your boxes have
little labels, and
these are your nymphs
and these are your dry
flies and, you know,
you've got everything
you might possibly need.
You know, spey casting
is going to give you
a bit of a relief from
that, because the truth
of the matter is you
don't need a vest, you
need three or four flies.
Like really well,
you don't need
a lot of flies.
Right.
You need maybe a
couple of sink tips
to cover the water.
If you have sort of a
plan already where you're
going to be fishing, you
might not even need that.
Just the one that's
on there, a spool
of 15 or 20 pound
maximum Altra green
and you're good to go.
So it's very minimalist
and it's very free
in that sense.
And once you move
away from having this
vest rain down on your
shoulders and you're
trying to fly cast,
and you're just, you
know, you don't have
to worry about that
and where it's, yeah,
it's very liberating.
So I think that within
fly fishing, you've
got, you know, the
people who pursue big
game in the warm water,
saltwater environment,
like your tarp and
fishermen, your permit.
Sure.
Fishermen, these are
very dedicated bunch.
These are like the
trophy hunters.
Then you've got the
technical trout guys,
and these are the type
of guys who, you know,
they understand why
the fish is feeding,
when it's feeding.
And they're very, very
good at observing what's
going on in the river all
the way around and, you
know, they're essentially
trying to give the
fish exactly what the
fish wants to eat.
Then you've got
the trollers at the
Lake like you were.
Totally.
You know, they're, you
know, they got a fly
which they believe in
and they put it on there
and they drag it around.
If it doesn't work,
they change it up.
Maybe not quite as in
tune with what's going
on, hatch wise, you
know, maybe they're,
you know, socializing.
It's a fun, it's
a fun day out.
Sure.
You know, then you've
got the steelhead crowd
and the steelhead crowd
is like, some of them
come across as kind of
the spiritual thing,
because steelhead
fishing is hard.
Most of the time we
don't catch anything.
If you're a numbers
guy and, I'm not going
to pass judgment about
what it means to be
a numbers guy, but
steelhead fishing isn't
for numbers people.
Numbers people are
happier fishing for
pink salmon or bass
or coho in Alaska.
Right.
If you're a steelhead
person, you know, you're
an optimist and you
probably enjoy crappy
weather cause a lot
of times steelhead
fishing takes place in,
you know, challenging
weather conditions.
And I suppose it's
almost like a communal
suffering thing when
you have a lodge full of
people who are soaking
wet and cold and.
Yep.
Maybe two of them
have had a bite, but
everyone's really happy.
And isn't it nice to come
back to a warm lodge at
the end of the day, that
there's maybe something
to that, but the longer
you go without a bite,
you know, you go three,
four days with a tug,
and then all of a sudden
you, a fish rips your
arm off and away it goes,
you don't forget that.
Versus some guy
who caught 32
bass today, right.
That's a good point.
So it's a different
kind of deal, it's it's
more about the hunt.
And I say it's about
the hunt because you
really have to believe
that what you're doing
is going to work.
So this is, it's really
a mental thing, right?
So it's, you know, you
don't necessarily change
your approach too much.
You have a plan, you
believe where the fish
are, you have a fly on
there that you think
is gonna work and,
you know, you just
execute that plan versus
running through your
fly box with a bunch
of different flies and
hoping someone will bite.
Most of the time out here
on the Skeena there's not
a fish in front of us,
but we're always doing
what we believe to be
the right thing, meaning
we're fishing the right
fly that we believe in,
in a spot that looks
great to us and we're
doing it with confidence.
But you never want
to feel like, okay
the river owes me
something, I need to get
a bite, I need a fish.
Right, right.
You just have to
be kind of open
to that happening.
And, you know, keeping
that fly in the water.
However many years of
guiding this is been,
I don't know, I think
it's probably 28 or
something like that.
I can tell you two
things, first thing is
that the best casters,
the people that can
throw out the farthest
do not catch the most
fish, this is true.
And it's very
important because
you know, the fish
are not that far out.
The second thing is,
okay sure, you can go
fishing for an hour
and catch something.
But the folks that
spend the most time with
their fly in the water
encounter the most fish.
Sure.
And you know, this
has been proven
time and time again.
It's okay to take a
break, but from a client
standpoint, the more
time you keep that fly
in the water, the better
your chances of success
because you fish eight,
10 hours, you have fish
in front of you, maybe
for a quarter of that
time if you're lucky,
that would be huge.
And if that happens to
be when you're sitting
in the boat having
lunch, might not be the
best use of your time
unless of course the
lunch was fantastic.
Let's talk about
gear a little bit.
Sure.
So these Pieroway
Rods, you're a
designer for one.
Yeah.
So Jeff's a good
buddy of mine.
That's Jeff Pieroway,
Pieroway Rod
company, he's got an
interesting story.
He was a rod builder,
actually he was a
stockbroker, to be fair.
He was a stockbroker
from Newfoundland who was
working in Calgary and
rod building was a hobby.
And he had a friend
who lived in South
Korea where a lot
of rods are built.
And so he was over
there on a fishing
trip and also sourcing
some hard to find rod
material, like rod
building material.
And he ended up
becoming friends with
a gentleman who had a
rod factory, who was
building rods for a lot
of big name companies.
And, you know, probably,
knowing Jeff, maybe
it was maybe over a
few beers or what have
you, he, you know, he
carved out a little
niche in this guy's
production schedule and
he was off to the races.
Nice.
And the development of
his business is pretty
cool because if you've
been to Calgary, you
know, that the Bow River
runs right through it.
And a lot of folks who
fish the Bow, float
and drift boats right.
Okay.
But a lot of the
younger people don't
have drift boats.
Right.
So a lot of the younger
crowd is, you know, there
are these dog parks,
like dog-walking parks
where you can access
the river, footbridges,
that type of thing.
And they're fishing from
the bank and so Jeff
would kind of patrol
these sort of areas.
And, you know, he was
basically selling his
rods out of the trunk
of his car and picking
up garbage as he went
and helping people
with their casting.
It was really a
grassroots kind of deal.
Wow.
But a lot of those
folks were the early
adapters of spey casting
in Alberta because,
and it's a little
different than here.
What a lot of those folks
are doing are fishing
like, you know, San
Juan worms or whatever,
and they can fish more
than one fly underneath
the bobber and the
spey rod fishing from
the bank made it easy
to cover the water.
Right.
So, you know, Jeff was in
on the, for Alberta, Jeff
was in on the spey really
early and I met him at
the Canadian Fly Fishing
Show and, you know,
struck up a conversation
with Jeff's rep and
he said, Hey, what do
you think of the rods?
And I said, Oh, they're
all right, but have
you ever considered
maybe making the butt
of the rod a little
bit softer in relation
to the middle section
of the rod and making
that a bit stiffer.
Now, most rods, most
spey rods, and actually
most, fly rods are
progressive in flex,
meaning the tip is
softer than the button.
Okay.
When we spey cast,
as we've talked about
earlier, we're creating
load in the sweep and
we're not stopping
the rod to release the
load on the back cast.
What we're trying to
do is keep the load
within the rod on the
back cast and load comes
into the rod from the
tip, goes to the butt
and when it leaves, it
goes out the opposite.
And the problem with a
conventional progressive
action rod that stiffen
the butt and soften the
tip, is it doesn't want
to keep the load in the
butt, and that's where
most of the power is.
So, you know, the
concept was to build
the flex pattern so at
12 o'clock, meaning at
the part of the forward
cast where the rod would
essentially be straight
up and down, and this
is where the rod has to
be the most bent, has
to carry the most load.
Okay.
So if you look at a flat
roof line, a horizontal
line and you think,
okay, if my rod tip is
going to accelerate in
a straight line, this
is essentially the path
that it's going to take.
So, you know, look
at this beam and you
think, you know that
rod tip is on that.
At what point is the rod
going to be most bent?
Is it going to be
most spent at 12?
Let's call it 11
and 1, or 10 and
2, three options.
And if you think
about it, it's gotta
be when it's straight
up and down for.
Sure.
The rod tip to
be on that line.
So, what we did is
we work backwards
from there.
So we wanted our flex
patterns to be nice
and balanced end to
have the rod carry
of the deepest bend.
And by softening the butt
of the rod, basically
underneath the cork,
we came up with a rod
that would very easily
keep its load through
the transition, at
the end of the sweep
into the forward cast.
And so you get a
ton of line speed
without having to you
know, work very hard.
The rod does all the work
for you and that's the
Metal Detector series.
Yeah.
We started out with,
well we were going to
start out with a couple
of different rods in
it and we ended up
starting out with three.
So we did a 12 foot 510.
510 grain rod,
which is kind of
like a seven eight.
Okay.
Okay.
So this is kind of
your all around trout,
light salmon rod.
Then we did a heavier
rod, which I think you
were fishing today.
That's the seven
20,13 foot 5 inches.
This was purpose-built
for Chinook and
large steelhead.
Then we also had a switch
rod, now switch rods,
a rod that can be cast
single hand or a spey.
Right.
It's a compromise rod.
Sure.
So generally speaking a
switch rod doesn't spey
cast as well as a two
hander and it doesn't
single hand as nice as a
single hand, cause it's
a little bit bigger.
Right.
And the failure of a lot
of switch rod designs
are that they're too long
to single hand without,
you know, getting tired.
Right.
So 10 and a half feet is
sort of the magic number
and that's pretty much
where we were with that.
And that's a 400
grain, so that's a
six seven, perfect rod
for fishing the Bow.
And so those were the
three initial ones.
And then we wanted
to kind of like a
heavier steelhead
rod to fill the gaps.
So we came up with
a 600, which is 12
foot, 10 inches.
Right.
And I think you actually
own one of those.
I do have one
of those, yes.
Actually you
have a couple of
those pardon me.
And that's my favorite
rod for fishing the
Skeena, that's just the
perfect all-around-er.
And now we have a
couple rods in the
six piece series.
We have a 675 grain,
which is basically, you
know, a total middle
of the road, salmon
steelhead rod, just
a little bit beefier
than the 600 and a bit
of a de-tuned version
of the Chinook od.
And, you know, that's
a real popular one with
Atlantic salmon guys.
Totally.
Because.
You fly with that, throw
them in your backpack.
Yeah so, it's so easy.
I think that's the way
of the future, because
it's not that people
don't trust the airlines,
but they just don't
want to give them extra
money for another bag.
So being able to stuff
it in their suitcase,
makes it a lot harder
for me when I'm at the
airport, by the way
and I'm trying to pick
out who our guests are.
Usually you're looking
for the rod tubes
and these guys just
have like briefcases
with rods in 'em.
But, and now we have a
new one coming out, which
is a different material,
I'm not probably supposed
to talk about it yet
because it's not out,
but it's definitely
something to watch for
this year, hopefully.
And that's going to
be a lighter stiffer
steelhead rod.
And, I forgot, we also
have a competition
rod, a 15 foot, 1200.
Geez.
Grain thing that, so
this is a bunch of them.
There's a bunch.
No kidding.
Of metal detectors.
Started out for three
and you got like
what, like six, seven.
Yeah.
It's added up and
then we've also
done the X-Series.
Which by the way,
Pieroway had before Sage
copied him on that name.
Yeah, yeah, true story.
And they sent him a
letter saying you can't,
he didn't, he never did
trademark or anything,
but they said, Hey,
well it's a letter, you
can't copy right it.
No.
You can't trademark it.
Totally.
I thought it was cheesy
to be honest with
you, but copycats and.
Yeah, you just can't
get away from that.
It doesn't matter what
business you're in.
Yeah, it's, so we took
it as a compliment
gesture though.
He's also done a shorter
space series called
the Renegade series.
And this is with Jerry
French, who's one of the
originals Skagit guides,
one of the originators
of the Intruder fly and
just an all around a
magician on the water.
So yeah, Pieroway coming
on strong and he's got
a different business
model because he doesn't
really sell to dealers.
Okay.
If you want to buy
a Pieroway Rod.
You gotta be on
the Bow River.
You got to go see Jeff
at his shop, which is
basically his workshop
in a little retail
store in Calgary.
Okay.
And then, you know,
a few lodges and
stuff, sell them
where people use them.
So yeah, happy to be
involved with Jeff.
Jeff's just a really
good dude, but you're
hard pressed to find a
bad Newfie, that's true.
So on the side of that
rod, there's a picture of
a fish sort of flames on
the fish or what is that?
That was the logo for
Whistler fly fishing,
so that was a design
my brother came up with
many years ago and we
sell lots of hats and
t-shirts, and that
type of thing with i.
See I was told that
people who weren't into
fishing at all, would
come by and purchase this
gear just for that logo.
You know, Whistler's
funny, people
are always buying
souvenir type things.
So yeah, we sold a
lot of stuff with that
fish on it for sure.
Fly fishing, spey
casting, this has
typically been in days
of old, associated
with more stodgy old
men on the river,
but you're definitely
seeing a transition
over the years.
You're seeing a much
younger crowd getting
into it, a much
wider demographic.
I'm wondering how
much you had to play
in all of that with
Whistler spey casting.
I mean, locally anways.
Yeah okay.
So I think the first
thing to understand
is that the best swung
fly fisheries in the
world are places like
Argentina, Russia,
Iceland, Norway.
Sure BC, right?
Sure.
And the big difference
between BC and a
lot of these other
places are the access.
So I'll give you an
example, so might
as well start here.
Spey, Scotland, right?
Sure.
To fish in Scotland on
a really good stretch
of river, typically,
perhaps not always, but
typically requires a fair
amount of money okay.
Sure.
This is not something
you can just like
buy rod and go.
Yeah.
You know, you need
to have the rights
to fish there.
Some land access.
Yeah.
And you know, I
think Norway is even
more complicated.
Iceland's become
less complicated, but
there's a common theme
here and that usually
you're going to have
some money to do this.
And BC is totally
different because in BC
you're not restricted
where you can go fishing.
And so the average
age of a swung fly
salmon angler here is
much lower then say
England as an example.
Which is a tremendous
investment in our future.
It's just the way
it worked out.
I mean the whole public
access thing here is
just superb, right?
It's phenominal.
Yeah, as a BC resident,
you buy your license
once, you can go
wherever you want.
Sure, we do restrict
the non-residents a bit.
You know, there's
certain rivers where
can't fish on a weekend
or, or one day of the
week or whatever it
is, at the Copper it's
three days they can't
fish, but they still got
lots of other options.
So in Eastern Canada, we
have, you know, Quebec's
got some of the best
Atlantic salmon fishing
in the world and the
way that they control
access there is for
something called the ZEC.
And essentially what
they're doing is
limiting the amount of
anglers on a particular
section of river.
So it's almost like
you have to make an
appointment to be able to
go fish a piece of water.
Whereas in BC, we can
travel around and fish
at our whim provided
we have our license.
Right.
So I guess where I'm
going with all this
is, you don't have
barriers for people
to access the water.
So they have to buy the
gear and they'll probably
get some waders, but
then they're good to go.
And, you know,
for myself, skiing
and fishing always
been my passion.
We talked about, you
know, how I started out
as a ski instructor, so
obviously I'm in Whistler
and what am I going
to do for the summer?
Okay, well, I know I'll
be a golf pro okay.
I'm not a bad golfer, but
I'm not a good golfer.
And so I got a job on
the golf course, right.
Nicklaus North, and I
was golfing all the time.
I was like, I'll
figure this out.
Like a couple of rounds
a day, I'll be pro
before you know it.
And meanwhile I had
done some fish guiding
previous and you know,
I ended up starting
to work fish guiding.
And so I was volunteering
at the golf course,
trying to bang out, or,
you know, let's say 10
rounds a week because I
wanted to be a golf pro.
Yeah.
Cause it would supplement
my skiing in the winter.
And then meanwhile, I
was sort of spending
a little bit of time
fish guiding, which
had already been doing.
And I realized,
Hey, there's a lot
of potential here.
And the golf course, I
was also figuring out
that unless you're a
really great golfer,
a golf pro is going to
stand next to someone at
the driving range right.
Whereas when you're
teaching skiing,
you're out on the hill,
when you're guiding
fly fishing, you're
out on the river.
It wasn't quite as
exciting as I sort
of pictured it.
I mean, I wasn't.
That's a good point.
Like imagining I'd
be like out on the
tour or anything,
but, you know, I just
decided that, okay.
I was going, golf
was going to be a
recreational thing for
me, besides it's really
hard, I'm not that good.
So, you know, Whistler
at that time, we had a
ton of tourist traffic
that was looking for an
activity in the summer.
And, you know, you could
pick a thing, I mean,
ATV tours, horseback
tours, mountain bikes,
it's all there okay.
Right.
But float tubing, so
sitting in the floating
tube on the local lakes
and there's some good
lakes there, but that
was kind of your standard
guided trip, but there
was some river fishing.
It wasn't right in
Whistler, but there
was some river fishing
and it was pretty good
at the right time.
But here's the thing the
right time wasn't really
in the summer, the right
time was actually in
the spring, the winter
and the fall okay.
So the float tubes in the
summer, a lot of those
people, you know, they'd
never done it before.
So we put them in the
float tube and they
kicked around and they
were trolling like, like
you, like, you were only
there in a float tube.
Yeah.
But they all wanted
to learn how to cast.
But learning how to cast
in a float tube is not
the ideal situation.
Right.
Because you're
sitting down right.
Yeah.
So it was like, you
know, nevermind being
a fishing guide, I'm
going to start a fly
fishing school and I will
teach these people on
the grass, how to cast.
And then if they
want to go in the
float too, we'll sell
them a guided trip.
But this is, this
is kind of the
whole thing started.
Very smart.
Yeah.
And, and then we did
our real fishing in
the other three months,
especially in the
winter, that's when the
good trout fishing was.
And so over the course
of a decade or more,
you know, we built up
a pretty good winter
steelhead clientele,
and a lot of those folks
are still with us today
here at Skeena spey.
But, you know,
certainly the local
Whistler residents.
And, you know, I want to
say your average Whistler
resident is probably
in their thirties.
I don't know if
that's true or not,
you know, there's.
Seems that way.
Yeah.
You know, it's a young
town, even old folks
seem young there,
it's a young town.
It's a great place,
tremendous sense
of community, but
everyone is really
outdoors orientated,
looking for something
new to do outside.
And I can't count
the number of ski
and snowboard pros
that came through my
shop and wanted to
get into fly fishing.
And some of them now
are really accomplished,
fly fishers.
A lot of times it
would be because
they had an injury.
They, you know, they
couldn't ride up on
the glacier in the
summer so they were
going to fly fish and
learn how to fly fish.
But, you know, I think I
did sel; a lot of people
their first fly rods.
I definitely sold a
lot of people at first
spey rods and you know,
overall our clientele
at, out of that shop was
much younger than say,
you know, your typical
hardy's crowd right.
Right, right.
And I think for the lodge
too, I should mention
this, your typical
steelhead lodge in BC.
Sure, old, rich
white guys are there.
Right.
This is what you
would expect.
Yeah.
And I think our
clientele here is much
more diverse than that.
We do get a lot of
couples, we get a lot of
families, we get a lot
of kids, lots of females.
Yeah.
You know, we've had
female guides, still
have female guides and,
you know, I think it's
just good business if
nothing else, because if
you limit your clientele
to one type of client
and they're older, how
many more years are you
going to get out of them?
Totally.
Right.
If you have a client
who's in their
twenties, right?
Yeah.
And if it's some.
You've got the
rest of your life.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, totally.
And you know when
you have couples as
clients, they tend to
be well-behaved, they
don't keep the rest of
the guests up seeing who
can get the drunkest.
If the wife's into fly
fishing and she's trying
to get her husband
into fishing, and he's
doing it, she's happy.
Regardless of whether
the river's full
of fish or not.
Right.
If people are trying
to get their kids into
it and the kids aren't
bored, they're stoked.
And I think the crew
of the team that we
have here, what would
they do exceptionally
well is, is teach.
You know, there's some
lazy fishing guides in
this world and everyone
can have an off day and
some fishing guides think
their job description
is to sit in a boat and
drink coffee and if you
hook something, they'll
come with the net.
Other fishing guides,
they're going to stand
at your shoulder and
do their best to, you
know, if nothing else,
improve your casting or
make you understand why
they have you fishing
in particular spot
at a particular time.
So if you don't catch
something today, at least
there's some value that
down the road, maybe
this knowledge will
still be there for you.
So I think, one thing
we've done well as
a business is get
new people into it.
Right.
And of course that's
creating new clients.
So that's way better
than, you know, trying
to steal clients
from another lodge or
something like that.
Totally.
So yeah, I think, you
know if your client,
if you're looking at
your clientele and
your lodge owner, and
it's all a bunch of
old, rich, white guys,
you should be really
freaked out right now.
Yeah, that's
a good point.
Especially if they're not
Canadians, cause quite
frankly, I think we're
going to be dealing with
domestic clientele for
another year at least.
I think you're
right on that one.
For somebody wanting to
get into spey fishing.
What does a season
look like if they're
willing to travel
around BC a bit?
Oh man.
It's year
round, for sure.
Really?
So let's pretend
that they live in
the Lower Mainland
cause most people do.
Totally.
Right.
Sometimes you get a
real winter, but let's
say January, so January
you, you can be up the
Squamish system and
spey fishing for trout
and then steel head
tend to start showing
up in February, March.
So you've got steelhead
fishing up there.
You've also got steelhead
fishing out in the
Fraser Valley, out in
the tributaries of the
Fraser as well as the
Vedder itself, obviously
Fraser tributary too.
Yeah.
Once we get into the
first bit of summer late
spring, say like May,
your usually dealing
with high water okay.
Yeah.
So this is, this
would be the time when
you know, your spey
fishing options do get
a little bit limited.
Now there's certain
systems that are Lake
fed and I don't want to
add pressure to them,
so I'm not going to put
them to name right now,
but there's certain
systems that are Lake
fed that fresh it's
not quite as abrupt.
And you can often
fish through May.
June is going to be
the tough one, but then
you have other rivers
that are quicker to
recover and the Kitimat
is a good example.
The Kitimat is a
great river in June
for Chinook right.
Okay.
That's a prime
time to fish it.
Then we get into July,
now you can fish the
Skeena for chinook
salmon and steelhead
.Lots of, pretty much
any Chinook river is,
that's open is good in
late June, early July,
August is prime time
for steelhead migration
through the Skeena
so that's happening.
Once we get into
September and
October, the tributary
start fishing good.
You know, the Bulkley has
almost half of the Skeena
steelhead returned in the
summer and it probably
has at least half the
steelhead anglers.
So, you know, with
almost a hundred fishable
miles, the Bulkley is
really easy access and a
great choice, especially
for a first, you know,
do it yourself type
steelhead trip, just
because the access is
so good around Smithers.
Yeah.
And you know, the latter
part of the fall, you
could be back down on
the Fraser system, or
you could be down on
the Squamish fishing for
coho and chums, or you
could still be up here,
fishing for steelhead in
the big Northern coho.
Wow.
So yeah, I mean,
it really, it
goes on and on.
You don't have to
have an off season
because our, typically
our climate so mild.
So here's a question for
you, so every odd year
in the Lower Mainland,
the pink salmon will
run up the Fraser
and it's always fun.
We live in Delta area,
it's real close, easy
access and people in
Richmond and Delta and
up the river will just
spin cast and catch
some pink salmons, put
them in the smoker.
Would you spey cast for
something like that?
I've never seen
somebody do that.
Sure.
You know, you can
swing flies for pinks.
In the Squamish
it's very popular.
So Squamish gets pink
at the same time you
would get them down
there generally.
Right, okay.
And so this would be
typically fishing the
lower reaches of the
Squamish, the popular
area would be around
the most of the Mamquam.
Right, okay.
And yeah, just swinging
little pink flies, like
a six, seven weight spey
rod works beautifully.
But on the Fraser?
You know, I've done it.
I've never
actually seen it.
I've absolutely done
it on the Fraser a
long time ago, but it
was near Chilliwack.
I've never fished
down your way on
the lower river.
Right.
I don't know, you know,
what the depth would
be like, or if there's
gravel bars there or, you
know, if you'd be trying
to cast from a boat, but
I imagine it's possible.
Yeah, I guess so.
I'm going to try it.
Yeah, you should.
You absolutely should.
Absolutely I will.
I'll take a picture
of it and I'll put
it up on the website.
How about etiquette?
Like a little bit
about basic etiquette.
Cause that's one of the
things that as, a getting
new into any sport can be
intimidating for people.
Like where do I,
where do I step in?
Like, what's the right
thing to do and I mean,
everyone talks about
these fights breaking
over, out on rivers
that are crowded over
improper etiquette.
That's a superb question.
And it's a complicated
issue because different
rivers have different
systems, but generally
speaking, most people
are fishing down the run.
And what I mean by that
is, if you approach a run
and there's a big run,
but there's already one
person fishing it, but
it's a big run there's
room for more than one.
The appropriate thing
to do would be to go
in behind that person.
Right.
Now, the actual
appropriate thing to do
would be to go up and
have a brief conversation
and say, Hey.
Right.
Do you mind if I
hop in behind you?
And that person would
say, no, go ahead.
And what's great
about doing that is,
often there'll be an
exchange of information
that's going to be
beneficial for you.
So that that person might
say, Oh, by the way, I
caught a fish earlier, I
had a bite or I've seen a
few, you know, at least.
Right.
You'll have a better
understanding of
what's taking place.
You know at that point
you've identified
yourself as a decent
human being, and you're
not trying to wreck this
person's day and you're
saying, Hey, do you mind
if I fished behind you?
And they're going to
say, sure, go ahead.
The wrong move
would be to walk in
below that person,
meaning downstream.
Right.
And if they're trying to
work their way through
the run, cause a lot
of times when people
are spey casting,
they'll cast swing,
take a step, you know,
they'll work their
way, cover the water.
And you've just like
made this roadblock
in front of them.
And if you're just
gonna stand there,
man, that's even worse.
It's bad enough if you
jump in in front of them
and you're moving, right.
But if you're going to
stand there then it's,
but I think a lot of
times when this sort of
situation happens, not
all, but I think a lot of
times it's not that the
person's a real jackass
or that they're doing it
on purpose, I think it's
just, they don't know.
And some fisheries,
like I use the
Vedder in salmon
season as an example.
It's a crowded river,
people aren't moving
through the run.
People just get their
rock and they hang out
on their rock and they
hope that the fish
are gonna come by.
And you know, if you're
bar fishing on a river,
like the Fraser or the
Skeena, obviously you're
set up in one spot,
right, you're not moving.
So it's important to
make that distinction.
Is this an angler
who's staying in
one spot, is this an
angler that's moving?
So back to our initial
river conversation,
you walked in, there's
a guy fishing, the
run, that's okay.
There's lots of space,
hey, how's it going?
Are you moving through?
I'm moving through,
okay perfect.
Okay.
Do you mind, I'll
hop in behind you?
Or if the person's
like, no, I'm just, this
is my spot, I'm just
going to hang out here.
They might say, you're
welcome to go below me.
They might say, you're
welcome to go above.
Right.
But at least you've had
the conversation right.
They're not going
to say, Hey, this
is my run, beat it.
Right, right.
Right.
But you know, at
least you have a
better understanding.
And if for some reason
you don't want to
talk to them, at the
very least, instead of
hopping in, observe them.
And if it looks like
they're moving through
the run quickly, then
by all means, you know
give them lots of space
and go well above them.
Just jump in.
Yeah.
Angler etiquette is,
it's sort of a funny
thing because once
again, I think a
lot of times there's
misunderstandings at play
when there are problems.
And it is somewhat
localized, meaning there
are certain stretches of
river where, you know,
people just kind of walk
in and do their thing.
But it's a funny thing
because if you and I were
fishing just any river.
How about the
river right here?
A little.
Sure.
Tributary of the Skeena
and we were driving
along it and we wanted
to fish a spot and
there was a car parked
there, we would probably
keep going because.
Right.
You don't want
to be around.
We're not trying to go
and make me, we're just
going fishing right.
Right.
We'll go to a
different spot.
But as density increases,
as every parking spot
we go by seems to
have a car, now we're
like, Oh, well there's
only one there, so
maybe we'll go there.
And when it gets really
bad with, Oh, there's
only five, there was
just so there's still
probably room for us.
So you know, when we
talk about regulation
and I, this ties in
nicely with what we said
before, about how they've
addressed maintaining
equality, angling
experience in other
places by limiting the
number of participants.
And we don't want to go
down that road in BC.
You know, we don't
necessarily need a
law that says, okay,
there's only X amount
of people allowed
to fish a particular
stretch of water.
In a period of time
because most people will
go, okay, well, this
part is kind of crowded,
this isn't the experience
I'm looking for.
I will drive 20 minutes
further, or go to
a different spot or
I'll get up earlier
or I'll fish later.
They will adjust their
own, you know, their
own day in a way to
avoid the crowds.
And some people, like I
think some people like
the crowds, I think some
people will seek out
places where there's
lots of people fishing.
Yeah I don't get that.
Because that must be
a good spot right.
Oh totally.
But you know, there
we are, we're driving
along the river, okay.
There's not a car
here, perfect,
we'll go in right.
So I think that certain
rivers, when they have
space, when they're
not over, let's say
oversubscribed, you
know, you have this real
orderly way that people
conduct themselves,
where they don't impede
each other's access
or negatively affect
each other's day.
And when we find
ourselves in a situation
where, you know, the
density is such that,
you know, it's not really
the experience we're
looking for, it's a great
excuse to go elsewhere.
And I also find that a
lot of times crowds are
somewhat reactionary.
What I mean by that
is if fishing has
been productive, if
there's been a lot of
fish caught, following
that period, days,
or week, whatever,
you'll see an increase
in people fishing.
Sure.
But often the
fishing will then
slow down right.
And then people say oh
fishing, then they'll
stop fishing for a bit
and they'll wait for
the next push of fish to
come in, but they're not
out there all the time.
So the folks that are
out there will reap the
rewards, so to speak, and
then other people will
hear that, Oh, there's a
bunch of fish around and
then they will descend
on the river and by
then it's kind of over.
So there's no substitute
for time on the water.
Just getting out there.
Yeah.
And you know, in this
day and age where
the learning curve is
pretty quick, in the
sense that you've got
Google Earth, you've
got message boards.
You can hit up
the tackle shop.
It's very easy to
get information
about where to go.
So there's no such thing
really, as a secret spot,
it's all about timing.
And what I love about the
Skeena and our experience
out here is, you know,
today, the river's
still kind of high
for this time of year.
Okay.
But looking at our
forecast, it's going
to be dropping.
It's going to drop eight,
10 inches a day probably.
So seven days from
now, the river will
be, you know, five
feet lower vertically
than it is today.
And there'll be
new gravel bars
and new spots.
And, you know, existing
spots will change.
So, you know, from one
day to the next, you
know, you really have
to be paying attention
to what's going on
to understand where
to spend your time.
Cause a huge river,
you know, you can't
fish everything.
So you have to pick
the spots and the
spots within the
spots that you want to
concentrate your effort.
And it's such a dynamic
thing with the water
level changing so
dramatically here.
And then also, you
know, fluctuations
in run timing for
fish, especially how
it relates to tides.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, it's not quite
as simple, perhaps as a
smaller river that might
have, you know, this
is the meat hole and.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, this
is the spot that
everyone wants to go.
On the Skeena that, with
the fish moving through,
it's really about timing.
Wow.
And you know, there's
no substitute for
confidence, keeping
your fly in the water.
Just fishing with intent.
Believing.
Yeah.
Just fishing, you know,
making a plan and then
fishing your plan.
Well, Brian.
Thank you very much
for taking the time to
talk to me and to share
your passion of fishing
with The Silvercore
Podcast listeners.
Cool.
Hey, it's been fun
having you guys here
and look forward
to doing it again.
Absolutely.