welcome to the art of succession podcast
with Barrett young join us as we explore
the strategies stories and insights that
shape the Journey of leadership
Transitions and business success no
matter where you find yourself along the
journey this is the podcast where you'll
find the tools to make it happen feel
like at that point you're married to a
job while at the same time have a ton of
other people dependent upon you and I
always take this call to just learn
information see who's thinking about
coming what they value what they don't
value like what culture is
at some point we're going to need to
sell so you might as well like establish
and build the relationships I was
stressed out but like I don't think I
really realized it until after I'd
actually like sold the business my name
is Barrett young and this is the art of
succession podcast my guest today is
Adam Shay who started a CPA firm in 2010
and then took an exit in
2023 and today he's going to tell us
what he's been doing since Adam thank
you for being a guest on the artistic
session thank you for having me on and
looking forward to it sure so uh to get
started what's I guess what's going
through your mind what's the impetus for
wanting to be a guest on the arst
succession and talk to other people that
might be in your position I think like
in a lot of what I've also been doing on
LinkedIn is just sharing lessons I
learned about business and both building
and growing the business but also the
exit process and then afterwards and
then kind of decompressing and realizing
you know how burn burnout I was um how
much I've been neglecting my health um
and just wanted to kind of share that
message and tell people there are you
know you're not if you feel stuck in
your business there's a couple ways to
you know get unstuck one of which is an
exit but uh you know that there are
opportunities out there you don't have
to hold your business until you're you
know 70 years old or you pass it on to
your kids or whatever sometimes you know
maybe a heads scratcher to people
externally as to why I sold my firm a
successful firm at 50 years old or so 49
um but you know it's just kind of
building the right move at the right
time awesome all right so let's get into
the firm uh you started it in 2010 did
you start it with anybody had you been
self-employed before did you start it up
from scratch going out on your own walk
me through that just a little bit
started from scratch on my own um three
weeks before my first son was born kind
of knew I needed to take the leap then
or I was going to be too um scared or
have too many obligations to do so also
like it was good from a timing and
family perspective because I
unfortunately wasn't super busy that
first year um and so I had time for my
son and my family and my wife like like
that first sort of spring where when he
was born like basically in January right
at the start of tax season and that's
was my initial Focus was was doing tax
work so okay and you'd been in public
accounting for a number of years at
other firms or did you come out of the
big four like had you been in a small
business before I I ended up so when I
got out of college I was a software
developer designer tester like business
analyst um and fintech space um decided
that really wasn't what I wanted to do
for the rest of my life and um relocated
took a buyout from my job relocated um
was trying to figure out what I was
going to do I thought I wanted to do
something business-wise running my own
business kind of had always been an
interest of mine um my mom suggested
that you know I just find a temporary
seasonal job doing taxes I was good at
math you know that stuff and I ended up
um managing
what was started as six Jackson hwi Tax
locations and we grew it to I think 13
or 14 um over a couple year period and
then it was kind of at that time I was
you
know really under selling myself and my
value and either it was like Buy in
there or go out on my own and kind of do
something on my own and I really decided
I wanted to take that bed on myself um
and also just not retail T I want to
focus more on planning and being
proactive in the business advisor than
just you know cranking out tax returns
to retail customers gotcha okay and I
presume you became a CPA while you were
there at Jackson huitt then to launch on
your own when I went on my own I did not
have my license so I had a new baby new
business and I was also studying for the
CPA exam so I did not
sleep all right awesome
and I I did you did you have any clients
come over from the previous was there a
non-compete there how how did that
launch go yeah I mean it was pretty much
from scratch maybe I don't know if a
customer two tracked me down but I
wasn't soliciting wasn't supposed to
solicit had a vague sort of
non-compete um and really the clientele
that a previously been working with
probably generally wasn't what I wanted
to be working with moving forward with
just complexity and just those looking
for advice versus just say an income tax
return that they need to file gotcha
okay awesome uh I mean we're we're
skipping over a lot of the founder piece
here but I assume a couple of years of
that how talk me through growth and how
you got that to a position 13 years
later where you had something of value
to sell yeah um so kind of took a couple
years to really get to the point point
where I felt I was ready to hire someone
hired you know an admin hired a
intern and then um eventually hired a
CPA and then just kind of continued to
hire and grow from there um did a lot of
you know grew through one back in 2010
no accounting firms in our area really
had websites so that was an easy way to
grow um you know Google go Google Maps
and stuff was pretty easy picking um and
so people would search starting to
search up yet the competition wasn't
there and then two just doing good work
and Word of Mouth from your clients and
three getting out and you know shaking
hands kissing babies doing all the
networking uh lots of time doing that
and just kind of getting to know people
and developing the name and reputation
and we're fortunate enough like our
Town's not tiny but it's also not huge
so kind of once you develop a good name
it just was pretty easy to you know get
referrals and just people know if
someone asks hey who do I know who do I
need to help me with my accounting and
tax stuff they say Adam sh um even if
they didn't know me because they knew
someone who knew me or had just heard
that we were good or whatever Goa okay
and and go and we at the peak I think
pre pandemic we were maybe close to 20
folks on our staff oh wow so somewhere
between 15 and 20 and then
um you know pandemic accountants like
were in even more shorts and Plies than
they were previously just because they
could work anywhere and get a big city
pay living here working here in
Wilmington NC people just were
reprioritizing things and so I mean
I I don't know you don't you never know
what would happened if I'd still be a
fir owner if the pandemic hadn't hit and
the world hadn't to change like it did
from an employment and priority persp
perspective but um it definitely you
know changed and had an impact on things
and um kind of made it more challenging
and where it really wasn't that I mean I
liked the business before liked what I
was doing VI business as a game and um
it just stopped being it's fun and
that's you know hard you feel like at
that point you're married to a job while
at the same time have a ton of other
people depending upon you um at the same
time and other people being the
employees that were working for us
gotcha pre pandemic had you guys were
you guys remote were you in office I
know being local there's a tendency to
take local business in office so mostly
in office but we did have like bpn
access and some remote access and people
could do stuff here and there we
actually like adjusted that
and 2018 our our area got hit really
badly by a hurricane and there's power
outage for week or two right around the
extension you know the September 15th
extension deadline and so it got me to
rethink like what contingency plans look
like so that we had all these people
that were had left town I think everyone
but me had left town but they couldn't
do anything because our server wasn't
accessible um you know because power was
out in our
office um over those th those 10 years
at least leading up to the pandemic how
much of it was how much of your work
that you were doing was annual
transactional um versus how much of it
was kind of recurring income yeah a lot
of it started out transactional and then
we kind of shifted like we
shifted probably around 2018 as well to
where we weren't going to do like if
someone if we were going to do an income
tax return for someone we were also
going to um do income tax projections
and planning with them so that gave us
at least two two touch points um or more
during the year depending on the
frequency of what they did there um so
we really kind of tried to shift a
little bit from the transaction side
transactional side of things but it took
us a while it probably wasn't
until 2020 or somewhere around there
like prior to that we were not doing any
you know your typical residual work or
ongoing work is accounting work on our
side we were not doing any of that we
were kind of strictly tax and forensic
accounting and tax resolution and didn't
really add accounting and bookkeeping
until much later in the life cycle of
the business okay uh between the
pandemic and between when you sold then
in those three years yeah probably
somewhere in that time frame maybe a
little bit before the pandemic but it
took us a little bit to just get going
because anytime you have a new line of
business you know you're making an
investment before kind of the revenue
gets there we probably initially and
I've did this multiple times and
hopefully people can learn from this I
always tell people like hire more senior
than you think you need and you can
afford um because it's just in the long
run it's cheaper than hiring someone
who's not senior enough that doesn't
work out or that doesn't carry as much
of the load as they showed from you the
business owner and stuff like that I I
mean that leads into my next question
was going to be going
into the the the years leading up to the
burnout
how much of the work came across your
desk how much of it was dependent on you
um out of 20 and I assume during the
pandemic you said some people took other
jobs so what's what size were you in
2023 when you when you sold the company
probably around 15 or so people okay so
about a quarter but not like half or
more you didn't shrink the firm
drastically so uh so how much of that
work was around you and falling on your
shoulders in those three to five years
leading up to the
acquisition not that much as far as
specifically like client work but like
and we had built out our model where we
had our our accountants we viewed them
as relationship managers and so we
weren't a model where our partner would
do all the communications to the clients
like our our staff would do that um but
at the end of the day it was still like
more complex stuff I I
think if I had to do ever again I would
have taught people how to fish better
and and problem solved better and you
know you kind of if you're not
intentional about it can build a culture
of like people coming to you when you
have when they have a problem and
instead of coming to you with a
potential solution or solutions to
consider they just kind of dump their
problem on your plate and then you're
you're carrying that burden and stress
so not really the traditional problem in
our profession of you had to sign every
tax return you had to review everyone
you had to do every client meeting but
there were other stresses there that
that were involved is that right that
and yeah and I was just spending a lot
of time like between you know just
turnover hire like really what kind of
burned me out most was probably just
dealing with HR and hiring and feeling
like I was always like that's all I was
ever doing and by the time I was like oh
this person's greater we're finally
smooth sailing for a bit and you know
the next day like some more people quit
yeah and and and the size business we
had we were like
big enough for a little bit of burden to
spread when someone left but really not
and we didn't have any like extra
capacity I mean again I if I had to do
over the growth kind of cycle again I I
probably would have invested a little
bit more and having that additional
capacity um you know earlier than I
needed it or more often than I needed it
um just to add a little bit of a buffer
and just kind of support future growth
um I want to get into the the burnout
and that decision here quickly but
before we do how much of the sales
process was still you did you have other
people bring business in or were you
still doing those initial calls and
onboarding and stuff like that um some
of the team was doing it um some of the
more senior team members but I was doing
a good bit of it um and like the bigger
deals I was kind of more involved in
just trying to you know the team team's
close rate was not going to be as
successful as my close rate not that I'm
a better salesperson or that I'm
naturally A salesperson but i' done it
more and then two I think there's
there's some Credence
to like someone trying to buy from you
if they know they're dealing with the
owner or someone a director some a
partner whatever it is then say just you
know some you know 25 30 year old
accountant that's that's trying to help
them yeah I've seen that and certainly
as owners Partners we we have the
ability to make concessions where
necessary and also to take a harder line
possibly than somebody as a sale in a
sales position would take so yeah I
understand that all right so talk to me
about the initial signs of burnout how
long did it take for you to recognize it
is burnout uh let's talk about this so I
don't think I really realize that I was
burned out or that everything I was
dealing with I mean I was stressed out
but like I don't think I really realized
it until after I'd actually like sold
the business and the adrenaline Road
wore off and I kind of dusted myself off
and and kind of did some
reflection and just you know that's
that's kind of when it really hit me the
most um my and so we didn't we haven't
talked about this but I did have
a small minority partner in the business
and she really wanted to get out too um
and she just was the one that headed up
our tax side and did not want to do tax
anymore and so part of it too was also
that I didn't want
to go through the process of rebuilding
an entire tax department or being in
charge of the tax department myself and
so trying to find a a good way a good
win for us to um you know at least
monetize somewhat everything that we had
built um you know over time and and kind
of allow her an out that provides some
income on that out and then you know I
looked at different options or different
choirs where some of which one or both
of us maybe would have stayed on if we'd
been bought by say a more traditional
big firm um whereas there are other
avenues where you know my partner stayed
for the first six months kind of as a
transition period with the buyer and
then I was to stay on for a year and I
stayed on longer than that um about two
and a half years or a year year and a
half I'm sorry a year and a half as an
employee and then still doing some
contract work with them at this point
gotcha okay um yeah so it was more the
minority Partners interest or desire to
get out how long had she been in the in
the business at this point and I assume
she earned her way into the into the
partnership yeah she had probably been
in by the time we sold seven or so years
I'd say roughly seven or eight so about
half the time yeah and
she had demonstrated herself but she had
also she had bought into her Equity with
the business so um she had some monetary
skin in the game and not just earned
equity in the game okay so yeah I mean
you bring up a good point burnout is
hard to recognize when you're in it it's
much more obvious that first tax season
when you're out and you're like wow I'm
not stressed right now it's just January
and yeah and I don't know if it's like
because I see it know it now or talk
about it myself but I feel
like in the last like year to especially
like on it might just be this sphere of
people I'm within on LinkedIn but a lot
of people talk about it or talking more
more focused on trying to have balance
as they you know build and grow a
business and stuff like that um so if
your partner wants out I I guess what's
going through your mind to start to say
yeah I could at 50 see myself you can't
retire completely so you've got to do
something else what's going through your
mind to say I I think I'm ready to pack
this one up and do something else versus
I'm gonna stay on find another partner
find a partial acquisition sell off the
tax practice something along those lines
yeah I mean I think it was just kind of
the for me like when I looked at do I
want to do this like you know say for
another 10 years and I'm not one of
those people that would want to work
till I'm 75 and die at the desk or
something like that in the business as
near and dear as it was to me was not my
life um you know but I I I just kind of
looked at it and you know is this really
what I want to do and like post pandemic
it was it was not and it was just like
kind of really just tired of hiring
people training people bringing people
on board and just kind of dealing with
you know impacts
of decisions people other people have
made meaning employees that have an
impact on me and
um and my stress levels and anything
else and and I'm not faulting them
everyone's got to do what they need to
do right for their life but it was just
not a good spot to be I didn't feel like
um and there were a couple
like and so maybe taking a step back we
would get acquisition calls because we
were in a growing Market we were growing
ourselves you know we were kind of the
firm to be in our area and so we would
get calls and I always like over
probably five years if not early ear
before we sold like I we always said I
always told my partner I'll always take
this call to just learn information see
who's thinking about coming what they
value what they don't value like what
culture is at some point we're going to
need to sell so you might as well like
establish and build the
relationships and so um you know I kind
of had those calls and then you know had
talks but not really and then I reached
out to a couple and said we might be
more serious about this um those were
more Regional ntion National or
Statewide firms consolidation more kind
yeah consolidation kind of things
um one or two of them I entertain like
you know we got to Loi and kind of did
some due diligence and other stuff or
actually three others we got at least
Loi one or two we got to some due
diligence but like you know I was
considering SE on there and my my buyout
portion being an equity interest for the
most part um in the The chiring
Firm okay and so you told me before the
call you ended up taking uh it was it
was a Searcher that was looking to get
out of a corporate job and buy a
existing practice and existing cash
flowing business so this was one of the
three that you entertained that had
contacted you before sorry before we get
into that that's interesting that you're
like I'm going to talk to them because I
I let those emails go to spam I just
like block you know Mar move it to
unfocused get rid of it because I I'm
not taking it seriously but your your
position was I at least want to be
educated by this okay and yeah time was
you know obviously a value commodity to
me but again I I just kind of as we
viewed the world um thought it was a
smart use of time if we did that you
know I don't know call it like once or
twice a year or once or twice a quarter
just depending on
it yeah different time okay remind
myself it's not today I feel like I'm
getting two or three of those a week
right now so okay all right that makes
sense um so talk to me about the the
negotiation with the Searcher then yeah
um and prior to that we had had a deal
that went to due diligence and they just
tried to
negotiate the renegotiate the price
during due diligence and just kind of
did
not I just did not one I wasn't happy
with the price they tried to renegotiate
it to but two I did not feel like I'd
want to stay on as an employee with like
just kind of people that are going to do
that um and so it just didn't feel like
the best fit and so that was right
before the start of one of our tax
seasons
and you know we kind of thought we're
GNA go through tax season maybe after
tax season the summer would do something
but buyer popped up through a
broker um right at the start of tax
season and so in the spring of 20123 I
was doing all this stuff behind the
scenes and due diligence um you
know with her with the buyer during tax
season when life is very busy but I just
kind of sucked it up and and did what I
needed to do to send it over the Finish
Line I think as an accounting firm we
probably I think it's safe to say or
assume we generally have probably better
records and financials and stuff
together than most people but it still
like blew my mind how like tedious and
um like timec consuming supporting DD
due diligence is um and it's not like it
was something I had my wife help me with
some of the stuff but it's not like I
didn't want to tell my team and didn't
tell our team until really far along in
a process and even then a lot of the
team didn't learn until we actually
announced that we'd been acquired um so
I didn't I just had to do most of the
ground workor um myself you know as far
as supporting providing financials
meeting with buer frequently um just
kind of answering questions helping push
along there so they use an SBA loan and
so there's there was just a lot of just
red tape related to that and just kind
of how the agreements had to be specific
to the SBA and just other stuff that
just was a lot
of it was it was stressful and even up
until like a week or two or at least the
last month before it was like there was
something in our lease that made the SBA
not happy and we were having to try to
get information from our landlord where
he's trying to use the the the Takeover
or the lease as a way to raate raise the
rent which was not going to work for the
buyer so everyone's like I kind of found
as a process everyone who found they had
any sort of Leverage from you that you
were going through an acquisition and
had any sort of Leverage trying to get
their their piece of it stuff that's
you're not prepared for going in yeah so
okay
um so did you how long did you and your
partner end up staying on did your
partner stay through another tax season
for the transition no she went she
stayed on from June of
2023 which is when we sold until
December of
2023 um so she did not stay on for
another tax season um she helped train
another tax manager and kind of helped
just generally document processes and do
some additional stuff I mean we we were
pretty good with documented processes
and Sops to begin with but you still
even like can always revisit and do some
cleanup on those if you're not going to
be around and just make sure they're
super
detailed yeah so I I presume this
Searcher was a CPA that was incorporate
uh because I don't know what the North
Carolina laws are but buying a CPA firm
is not an option for everyone is that
correct so she is not a CPA and we are
no we are an accounting firm now and not
a CPA firm and so that's the specific
disting distinction gotcha okay so your
partner staying on for you know through
the end of the year um that's a lot of
introductions and a lot of passing off
of relationships I assume yep correct
but I think it was like the fact that
the company was named Adam Shay CPA and
I was sticking around for that first
year and part of the reason a lot of the
reason I was sticking around is because
we had an earnout component to the
acquisition and so I wanted to stay
around and try to impact that as much as
I could gotcha okay and what's your role
in the company at this point since
you're not tax manager you're not
reviewing the tax returns what's your
role for that year here I was director
of vcfo and advisory Services um which
was a
new line of business and like I mean we
done some virtual CFO we' done a bunch
of advisory but like it was one of those
Services I wanted to add but like staff
really couldn't run with and and lead
and I couldn't do that at the same time
while I was while I was kind of running
and managing and growing the business um
and so thought
process with the choir going into it was
like I would direct you know be director
of that I would get back to more client
work you know help with transition stuff
like that maybe stay on indefinitely as
an employee hard to know until you get
in there um and also do continue to do
sales um you know be one of the
salesperson along with the new new owner
okay awesome so making sure she's up to
speed ready to take over but you also
just saw this as an opportunity to
experiment and grow I mean you said
accounting and bookkeeping really only
came in in the two years or so leading
up to this so you're now growing in a
department of a company you no longer
have a it's that's not going to affect
the value of that what was that like for
you yeah definitely freeing
you know some some in some ways free in
other ways you're like all right I'm you
know part of my compensation like I was
I guess I can say this I was
undercompensated for that first year
just because like I needed to be around
for the now gen 10 to be yeah um at
least that's my my take on it um and so
but the was pretty significant we HD
100% of the earnout um so that that was
important and so I I you sort of My
overall compensation during that time
some portion of the earnout as well so
let's talk to the mindset shift now
because like you said it's Adam Shay CPA
and Adam Shay is no longer gonna be
there
anymore what's going through your mind
as you're like I'm an employee again I'm
not a 100% owner here
and and then starting to look towards
the future like I said you're not able
to fully retire so there's got to be
something else what's going through your
mind here um yeah just that transition
from owner to employee versus you know
or seller yeah I mean I I you know
slowed down some didn't work as much
which was all good things but at the
same time like doing that then caused me
to do a lot of self-reflection and be
like is stuff with this company in the
space really what I want to be doing is
like or do I really realize kind of
reflecting on that that I enjoy more
teaching and Advising business owners
and in the weeds accounting and finance
and tax stuff um and so it just kind of
I don't know had to have I guess
more head space and and quiet time and
not to running around like a chicken
with my head cut off some of the time
like I was as a firm owner um to just
kind of really reflect and kind of
adjust to that but it it was you know
things I did not anticipate I probably
should have or I did anticipate but just
not as much it's like it's really tough
when your company is your baby and
someone comes in and changes a lot of
stuff that you know you maybe don't
agree should be
changed um or that and some of the stuff
was a better change change you know it
was a right thing but it still doesn't
mean that it it was easy for me to see
someone come in and do
that talk I mean just elaborate a little
bit on that I in my mind I lik in it to
we my wife and our first starter house
we lived there for 12 years and raised
our kids in there and then moved out but
it's still in the same town we live in
and so every time she drives by on the
way to Target she's like I can't believe
they've done this and I have to remind
her I'm like it's their house you
wouldn't want our owners our owners of
our current house to drive by and get
mad because of the things we're doing so
that's what in my mind I equate that to
but yeah just talk about did you ever
have conversations in that first year
like I don't think that's going to go
over well or you need to not do that or
how did you tell yourself to let go or
or move along and and I think your
analogy that you shared about your wife
in the first house is like kind of a
very accurate analogy as to how it's
sort
of how it is and how it should be viewed
um with the with the myself and the
business um I mean I I I had a
very you
know the owner and I would have one-on
ones weekly where we'd talk through
stuff issues um you know share my
opinion she'd ask my opinion
um and just but she she
was very driven to
Drive revenue and drive changes and and
drive
profitability um which are all good
things you know if you're the business
owner but also introducing too much
change at once can be tough for the
team um and so and there's you know
things along the lines of just
technology changes process changes um
things like that and nothing really like
structurally or organizationally
changing too much other than you know my
partner bowing out and um you know
myself not being the owner anymore or
the ultimate
boss I mean like change Technologic so
you were the like the firm to be in
Wilmington like this is the model for
the firm of the future kind of thing she
was she was even accelerating the gas on
some technological changes even beyond
that yep I think you have like
you know when you have someone
who's it's really a plus for her but you
know a lot of people grow up in an
accounting firm or like mature in an
accounting firm then they have this set
view in their world in their mind that
this is how they operate and she's
coming in with the clear slate and then
you know bunch of fresh ideas and so I'm
not saying that's a bad thing um it's
just you know accountants generally
don't adapt well to a ton of change it
once where our response is but you can't
do that and it's like why not and it's
like because we started doing that 12
years ago why I don't remember it was
what was available to us 12 years ago so
okay interesting um I I gotta ask this
and I know obviously non-competes and
all that kind of stuff but did the
thought ever flash through your head
that you wanted to start another
accounting firm early
on not not really and and like you said
um you know there's some non-competes in
play it's
more um area based than anything else
which isn't quite as relevant in today's
world um you know but I don't know I
never really wanted to build up a scaled
CPA firm again I mean I do do you know
some contract work with the buyer could
do contract work with others or oneoff
clients here and there um on the
advisory side of things but um nothing
really today and really I don't know
I've kind of
like I I I don't feel super passionate
about it being like Finance and
Accounting like what I want to spend my
day today doing um nor do I really have
any interest in building something up
where I have 15 or 20 employees again I
just want to kind of do the the solo gig
sort of thing um you know and it's it's
a very different mindset than I had the
first time which was to build something
of value to sell um I thought I'd grow
it much bigger than I would and I'd be
able to sell it at 50 to 55 at enough
valuation that I wouldn't have to work
again but you know just doesn't always
work out as you kind of think it
might so let's talk let's talk about
what's next how how soon after the
acquisition
did you see yourself starting making
moves to actually put something in place
rather than just an idea in the back of
your head how soon did you register the
LLC and start to talk about it and yeah
so I I had share the knowledge
previously I think since 2018 and had
been doing some um a URL that you just
keep renewing no I had to had a you I
didn't even have a website yet that's
okay um but uh and I probably would have
end up with the com instead of.co if I
had registered when I when I started
with it um but I I just did a lot of uh
I did some accounting firm specific
training some Technical Training um with
one kind of educational content course
creator um in the accounting space and
so I'd already kind of had the
experience but and really in that
Journey like he wanted me to do more
Technical Training and I really wanted
to do firm ownership and just
entrepreneurship training and so I knew
ultimately like long term that's I told
him after the acquisition like I didn't
the course needed to updated from a
technical perspective I just didn't have
the desire or skill set to do that at
that point um really the desire more
than anything um but I've had you know
experience like teaching you know 50 or
so sessions of like just educational
content to a group of business owners or
um of various sizes and really that's
kind of I don't know I guess this past
summer and I realize I'm jumping all
over the place but this past summer I
started posting on LinkedIn regularly
and it was kind of therapeutic and
teaching a lot about like here's what I
you know not I had this great exit I can
sit in you know drink my ties or
whatever forever um but like here here's
what I would have taught myself or
here's what I would have done
differently here's my lessons learned
and sort of has become
therapeutic um to share that and to
share just kind of more about
myself um and I'm really trying to to
then like take that knowledge that stuff
that I'm sharing out there and and
really develop some course and content
around that to help train groups of
business owners together um as well as
potentially some business coaching um
because I I do love entrepreneurship I
love working with business owners it's
just um more in the general business
operation side than maybe the accounting
and finance weeds yeah I gotcha so
what's that look like today I mean is it
are you on a platform or is it
one-on-one business coaching on a
subscription how how did that develop
yeah I mean I'm still developing that
now and kind of working on some ideas
and and content and so my plan is
here end of q1 start of Q2 is to have a
online meet four four times in a month
um where I run through content with a
group of people and then do some support
on the back end of that as well with um
entrepreneurs and business owners they
really want to you know either I kind of
have the idea of having those that are
in startup or early stage they have a
different set of issues you have those
that are in growth stage so having a
group of them together and then those
that want to go to exit or kind of more
mature stage um because as it you know
as you know very well Barrett like on
the endide of things like or the back
side of things when you're starting to
think about exit you got to do a lot of
things um you
know all around with your business to to
maximize that value and to make due
diligence as smooth as possible yeah
yeah for sure you you have to clean
everything up you have to make sure that
it's an good position to be replicated
not just fall apart as soon as you walk
out but I mean what I'm most interested
in you know you know we've you know
we've been Associated for a long time
through through a lot of this process
you know I closed my company and I know
the the exhaustion that you don't feel
until you're on the other side of it and
the the
self-identity shift that you have to go
through too and you know that's what
I've seen be come more out of you
through Linkedin over the past year is
that burnout side recognizing I was
burned out and I I would not have you
know it's a good thing this happened
when it did
so tell talk to me about some some signs
of burnout that don't look like burnout
if or you know just talk talk some more
about
that yeah I
mean I I
think unhealthy habits I had was just
eating late at night just food for
stress purposes
um drinking like not drinking like
getting hammered drinking but you know
drinking a couple drinks every day I
don't drink anymore I mean I don't judge
people that do but I just have kind of
made the decision to really not do that
um I think part of it everyone writes it
off as an entrepreneurial mind or that's
just being a business owner but was the
inability to sleep um you know just kind
of all those sorts of things um just
kind of were masking what was going on
really underneath or behind the
curtains or helping maybe not masking
but helping me cope with it and yeah
rationalizing and like you said it's
that's the that's being a business owner
right totally normal the hustle and
grind culture yeah yeah so now that you
look back and you see that I mean was
that there from day one or where did it
really start to accumulate for you other
than covid when it accumulated for
everybody but I mean can you see I mean
obviously with the new company you it
sounds like you don't want to have
employees you want to keep it yourself
but can you see
certain change points in that you would
have done differently to to remedy this
earlier or to resolve this earlier I
mean and I talked about it earlier like
in another little bit another reference
but like we had the opportunity to hire
a manager who I'm convinced would have
been a great manager for our team taking
stuff off my partner and myself but
let's say I don't remember the exact
figure but she was five or 10% over kind
of what our budget was and we didn't
budge on our budget couldn't bring her
on board probably brought three people
on board behind her that just never were
what we
wanted um and so again I go back to like
you
know some some decisions have to be
Financial some decisions have to be
growth Investments like there's a
balancing act there but if I had to do
ever again I would like with the
hindsight I have I would have hired more
senior more earlier um and really
probably grown
slower because when I I look at the
rapid growth we had it was tough on both
the systems so when you're at a a
company of five people and then you go
to 10 people what worked it
yeah in a different like you know within
a shorter period of time like you
know the systems break the people break
you don't have the right people in the
right seats all the time I mean we did
the right things we were supposed to do
or they say to do like develop a
leadership team have leadership team
meetings you know kind of starting to
implement some of the EOS stuff um even
though we didn't really you know
formally call everything rockers you
know the meetings and everything exactly
the same but were kind of doing the
issue identification and having
different people off own and resolve
them um but it was I think really kind
of once we get got over 10 people it
just kind of felt like there was always
just kind of people issues to deal with
some good some bad um you know we had
great people that so many great people
even before Co just decided that public
accounting wasn't for them and just kind
of frustrated of all that time you know
you spent investing in them how smooth
things were with them and then you got
to build someone up from scratch and so
I think that's kind of when I look back
at it personally just kind of
what know probably contribut the much
was just the stress because when you're
of that size when someone leaves there's
just so many moving Parts offboarding
them onboarding new people and then
picking up the additional CL working
making sure the clients are retained
deciding what you're going to
communicate to the clients like and
when um you know yeah I'm very familiar
with everything you're
sharing so um I mean moving forward from
here you've been through this you've
recovered through this you're now able
to share this with other people what
kind of guard rails do you have in place
now for you to look at or your wife to
point to or close friends and anything
like that to keep you from ending back
up here in another six years yeah and
and I'll get to that in a second let me
go back to the previous question though
too like one one other thing I think
that contributed was work from home and
not like you know and turning it off
yeah and not you're off like you don't
have to drive 20 minutes to get into
office and like it's always here it's
always as a business owner if if you're
looking for it there's always something
you can be doing um or should be doing
or maybe maybe not um so that was part
of it you know so I I think to your
question you just asked like trying to
set up those triggers of when I turn it
off like and you know like so walking my
dog the end of the day like then I'm
generally done for work um you know
making sure I get into exercise every
day every night as well like to just
kind of help me relieve stress and just
kind of I I've found things that
are more healthy um releases than what I
was doing previously
yeah yeah it's hard when you're a
business owner and there's some weight
on your shoulders that can't be shared
with other people it's hard
to prioritize anything else over that
and you're like no this is if I don't do
this nobody else will it's hard to say
well exercise
though is is important
walking the dog turning things off not
checking email all night long those
things those things matter and you have
to you have to have that line so and I
and I think other ways are helpful like
yes it can be helpful to talk through
your with your spouse about stuff but
like they
don't yeah and they don't own and run
the business I mean your spouse could
own and run another business but like I
think it's important like really what's
helped in my healing from burnout if you
want to call it that is like like seeing
other people talking about it chatting
with other people who are business
owners former business owners whatever
like ton of people have reached out to
me after like yeah I was dealing with
all these issues after I sold my
business as well here's how I you know
cope from it or here's how I recovered
or here's how long it took or just kind
of I didn't realize I was until after I
was you know everyone has their War
Stories unfortunately or most people do
yeah my first business I was 28 when I
started it it was from home and I didn't
have any of those boundaries and I I
learned after that my wife didn't
necessarily want to hear every single
thing that was on my mind because she
didn't have any power to be able to do
anything about it and so all I was doing
was getting it off of my plate and on to
hers and she's freaking out about things
and I'm like oh no I resolved that two
months ago I figured that out and moved
on so yeah healthy boundaries there and
just yeah knowing your relationships and
knowing what you can share and with whom
and then having plenty of options like I
have business owners I can talk to about
business things I have personal friends
I can talk to about some things but not
others so yeah that's
great um anything else that you want to
add or anything we haven't gone over
before we uh get to the lightning round
Adam um I mean no just talking about the
spouse there like the other interesting
thing is like when I had the business my
spouse worked in the business and that
can present its own sets of challenges
the other challenge was like she didn't
continue with the buyer um and she
wasn't super marketable for you know
just from a she was just kind of doing
admin like whatever I needed to be done
um and you know so it's just I I would
encourage someone after buying or
selling a business like to think about
like what it means for their spouse um
either way like even if they are are not
working in the business like just what
it means because you're going to change
your lives are going to change and like
you know just make sure you I don't know
think through and talk through that and
that they're okay with you being like in
their hair more whatever it may be um I
think I'd drive her I think I'd drive
her crazy if I wasn't working in some
capacity so I don't know if I'm GNA
continue working for the rest of my life
or what but okay so you're talking about
specifically it look like there was a
gap in the resume there yeah for for her
I mean she she's had she has a resume
but she her name's Sarah Shay and she
was working for Adam Shay CPA for you
know however many years as she was also
like czy you know as she was also Shing
the kids around and volunteering at
school and other stuff um and so I don't
know it's just kind of been trying to
figure out like what both of us are
going to do from a career and business
perspective you know moving forward okay
awesome well uh I look forward to
getting into the lightning round with
you Adam I love this part just to hear
more about my guest and find out some
things that are on their minds about
some of the questions so you ready for
the lightning round sure have had it
okay uh coffee or tea and how do you how
do you like it
prepared uh tea and iced tea with some
sort of fruit flavor in it okay uh I
assume sweet or is that a incorrect
assumption yeah I mean we are the South
so yeah it's got some sort of Sweetness
in it although like actually and I'll
add the one other te I like is Starbucks
they have things that are called
medicine balls which is hot tea with
honey in it and lemonade in it and those
are very good too like a cold killer
kind of thing yeah it's like a cold
killer but you you can I I drink it if I
go to
Starbucks okay yeah I just wanted to
clarify because I know I go south of
Virginia and I don't have to say sweet
tea I just say tea so it's better than
going back home to California and I said
do you have sweet tea and they're like
well you can add sugar packets to it I'm
like never mind just bring me a
soda all right uh pie or cake and do you
have a a favorite kind carrot cake
that's what my mom always made growing
up and so it just kind of has a special
spot in me it was what we got for our
birthdays and stuff like that I think it
was my dad's favorite so awesome yeah I
that brings back childhood memories for
me too still enjoy it today
um what's a common belief among
entrepreneurs that you would love to
correct I mean I I think it just kind of
goes around the hustle culture and the
like that you have to like your business
has to be your life or your life has to
be your business um and just kind of
finding balance even if you're growing
and really um having a successful
business like you just
need that time and focus and you need
outside interests outside of the work
outside of your family to help maintain
that that balance and so I think I'm at
least seen more and more where people
are like no hustle culture is not that
great like that's that's probably the
best thing that's come out of the postco
and pandemic era is like just people
seem to be more mindful of that and more
mindful of of you know balancing things
I think it's still taking a while to
catch up at the owner level of the
companies but I'm definitely happy to
see that at the at the employee and the
manager level of you know this company's
going to continue to exist after you
after you go I think stories like yours
are important for owners where it's like
yeah this company does rely on me but I
need to be somebody else other than just
the person in this company so
awesome uh if what's your favorite
holiday and
why um I would say Labor Day I I don't
know I'm a I'm a I'm a fall and winter
kind of guy even though you know it's
gets hot here in North Carolina in the
summertime and like I just like that and
so it may still be hot on Labor Day but
it's at least sign signifying that it's
coming the other thing is like this may
sound terrible to say but I think
parents can relate to this it's also
generally around the start of school and
so you know there's there's you have
more time to yourself the reset of wow
the house is so quiet
again all right awesome I think you
might be the first vote for labor day
I've had on the
podcast awesome um are you a morning
person or a night person and do you have
a favorite
routine um I would say generally like
morning person although like I I don't
know one of the things I've done like
post acquisition is like really try to
focus on my sleep and so I wake up when
I wake up and it's generally not that
super early but it's not late but sounds
super early um yeah I mean my routine
again starts with like my workday ends
with the walking the dog my day starts
with walking the dog and just kind of
getting outside um sometimes I listen to
podcast but a lot of times I convince
myself that just like H not having the
noise and just kind of being in
observing nature around us is a good
start to the day
awesome um what what's one thing that
you would want your successor to to
remember you for I think that being you
know honest and to my word and you know
just representing things as they were um
you know with the business and just kind
of being a standup guy is kind of what I
want someone to remember me yes okay
awesome uh where are you finding
creativity right now I mean I I share my
creativity or I don't know I find
creativity in daily life and so I I kind
of like a lot of times thoughts or ideas
come to me as far as like things I could
write about or could share on LinkedIn
or you know do for other things or
relevant to other business owners um I
generally will try to jot down those
thoughts because it's I'm one of those
people like if I don't jot it down like
i' I've lost the thought like five or 10
minutes later at least with that sort of
stuff um and so I don't know it's just
kind of living life with eyes open and
trying to cut down on some of the
digital and electronic distractions and
just kind of that's that's kind of what
sparked my Sparks my juice taking the
time to observe and just watch and pay
attention to why things are the way they
are yeah awesome
cool um last question Adam what do you
have coming up in the next year that's
got you really excited or interested
engaged yeah um I mean I I'm just kind
of kind of building out this new side of
me this new business for me and just
kind of developing that I mean people
are asking sort of what I'm doing I'm
I'm I know in the general area but I'm
still hashing through ideas and just
kind of want to work with business
owners entrepreneurs to help them
achieve their goals help them minimize
the mistakes I made and so you know in
the form of you know educational content
and um you know coaching is kind of what
I'm my thought processes right now and
you could check in with me in you know
November and it may be something yeah I
may have pivoted who knows but um that's
what I intend to do right now is kind of
my goal is for
2025 awesome and where can people uh
find you online to follow more along
with that uh best spot for me is
probably on LinkedIn if they just search
Adam Shay shy they'll find me pretty
easily and I'm I'm really active on
there yep we're going to link that in
the show notes awesome uh anything else
Adam at the end here don't don't don't
let the business you know if you're
running a business or thinking of
acquiring a business I just encourage
people to find ballots and maintain
ballots and not to let the stress of it
like push you too far because I was
fortunate like through un external
events or what my partner wanted to do
like I sold the business and I was
burned out didn't really realize it but
what I I kind of like think back like or
look back like what would have happened
if that hadn't happened and I continued
I mean you hear people ending up in a
hospital other stuff like just are just
kind of shattered lives because they
work too much or carry too much stress
and so um I think it's just kind of
that's my message I'm trying to get out
is to your your work is not your
identity and your identity is not your
work so or or your business
well thank you for Adam for being on the
show and sharing the message I
appreciate it thank you you've been
listening to the art of succession
podcast with your host Barrett young
twice a month we'll bring you interviews
sharing the successes and challenges
from business owners with their own
succession Stories the art of succession
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