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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: The world has changed dramatically, but many organizations are still trying to use old approaches to getting things done, and every statistic we see from engagement to productivity shows that it's just not working. Our guest on this episode of We Not Me, is Natal Dank, an author and consultant that helps organizations to embrace business agility, to navigate complexity, and deliver true value. Keep listening, if you'd like to know how to escape the trap of just being busy and build the mindsets and skill sets required to take advantage of a more agile way of working.
[00:00:34] Dan: hello and welcome back to We, not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:42] Pia: And I'm Pia Lee, Dan Hammond. Um, have you seen the latest Gallup research today? Now Gallup measures engagement levels. So, runs a series of questions. Is the biggest research house on engagement. And the reason engagement's important is because it's deemed to be a big precursor to productivity and performance. So there was a bit of, slightly worrying stats that came out today,
[00:01:10] Dan: Yes, indeed. It, I mean, it's been. Dropping since 2020, I think. And it's, uh, this, this data showed it's still going. yeah, which is just a bad reflection. Not surprising, I must say, but a, a reflection that the problems are still not being solved. And, um, the approaches we're taking to try to reengage people in this new, particularly post covid world, are not really working.
[00:01:35] Dan: And I think the, the research has said there's this. Huge demands on, on managers to deliver and also demands, quite rightly, I think, on employees to have flexibility, new ways of working, which are in, in a lot of cases, being denied them by return to office mandates. so yeah, it's, it's in a way, the numbers tell a story that is, is. Alarming, but at the same time, not in the slightest bit surprising.
[00:02:03] Pia: No, um, big cost though. The, the productivity loss by this 2% drop globally in engagement is. 438 billion US dollars lost. so it, it's hurting and I think that this becomes a, it, it's a great topic for today because something is obviously not working. The demands, as you say on leaders and teams is greater. And the expectation to, um, manage post covid, Remote, hybrid, different ways of working. Gotta think about this a little bit differently. And I, I, and, and we're certainly seeing that with our clients who are, are very open to looking at different ways of working, prioritizing.
[00:02:48] Dan: yeah. So I mean, and, and I think a lot of organizations are still are actually, and I think this is why the numbers are saying they're doubling down on the old ways of working. You know, we are seeing a lot more, you know, plan their set goals, report back. It's very much the same, same way of working. But what we're gonna be talking today, uh, about with our guest natal dank, um, is about business agility.
[00:03:11] Dan: How can you really chuck out not all of that, but keep, keep the good stuff, but actually just. Just move on, evolve into a new way of running organizations and teams and, uh, through this more agile approach as we'll talk about this with Natal. But, um, you know, agile has its, you know, it means so many things.
[00:03:31] Dan: but I think Natal is, is, you know, a global expert in this topic and really has a. Deep understanding and a practical approach to, um, to how you can bring this to organizations with luck. Solve both, you know, helping employees to be more engaged in work and actually help those organizations to deliver when we, when we really need them to. So let's go and hear Natal now.
[00:03:56] Pia: Welcome to We, not Me.
[00:03:58] Natal: Thanks for having me. Good to be here.
[00:03:59] Pia: I think this is such an appropriate conversation to have and I, I think we're gonna sort of deep dive into, you know, the challenges and the opportunities of bringing. Agile to business and, and specifically focusing on Agile hr. And I think that it's such a valuable conversation to be having because it has traditionally seen to be in a software development space.
[00:04:23] Pia: But I think this conversation will open up really how it is revolutionizing how we do work together. beforehand you have to go through, um. A small test, which is answering your question from Dan.
[00:04:38] Dan: well this, I have cut the pack and I've got, there's a red card. And this reminded me of, um, when we had a family meal recently. And, uh, one of my daughters, um, asked a, a question prompter, which I think Pier is one of your, one of your practices is to ask a, a curly question of the table.
[00:04:54] Dan: And her question was, what's your least woke opinion? And it was. Amazing. It was excellent. It was just brilliant. I recommend it. This kept me going since actually, but this question for you, natal is my biggest bias is what is your biggest bias?
[00:05:10] Natal: I am an internal optimist and I like to. You know, seek out a positive kind of take on, on, on life. And so my bias is probably others that, uh, uh, can see the positive or see the, you know, oh, okay, well here's possibly if we did this, we will be able to get through it.
[00:05:33] Natal: and so that, yeah, I'm probably where actually the, um. the flip side is very important to explore. Um, and, but it's good because my partner is, um, uh, the miserable, uh, critic, uh, in our relationship and always, uh, introduces the other side of how this is not gonna work and get over it. yeah. Um, and the more cynical view of humanity life and.
[00:06:02] Natal: Particularly government,
[00:06:03] Dan: Right? Yes. Yeah. That it Well, yes. Yeah. It's Well, he is got, he's got plenty of fuel to work on that one exactly. Yeah. So he'll write everybody off and I'll be like, oh, but no, there's good. Let's just go and find that out. So, yeah. So, but I do, I think I, and I therefore warm to people like that, where actually you need a, a good mix in a conversation, um, and you know. We're gonna talk about agility and it's about solving complex problems.
[00:06:30] Natal: And to solve complex problems, you need to be able to come from multiple perspectives. and while you need to seek out the opportunity and, you know, how can we find the optimistic way of, you know, solving this, um, actually going through what won't work is just as important and failing, uh, fast, you know, all those kind of things. So yeah, I think both is very important.
[00:06:53] Dan: Yes. I have had this where the, um, the more you sort of go goal setting and trying to be aspirational and the, sort of more, what did you say, risk averse people or the people want to Yeah. But that could go wrong in these ways. Start to sort of, yeah. But no, we can't do that because, hold on a second, you'll get your turn in a minute.
[00:07:09] Dan: And it's really an interesting one to say in a team setting to, to harness that diversity throughout those
[00:07:16] Natal: the, the yes. But you
[00:07:17] Dan: Yeah, that's right. And you're, you're killing this expansive session we're trying to have here, but, uh, but actually you'll get your moment. Um, so Natal, thank you for that. That's, um, I, it makes, it sheds a lot of light on your, uh, your dynamic home life. Um, so, uh, as well, tell us how you got here. Give us a little bio in a box for Natal.
[00:07:37] Natal: I, I kind of wear two hats professionally. One is I am known as an author and also a key thinker in hr. And the people profession around how can we modernize, uh, the way that we build the people experience and help businesses, um, be great places to work.
[00:07:56] Natal: Um, so I do a lot of speaking and those kind of engagements, um, in, in on, in that, wearing that hat. And then the other hat is that I am, the executive director and principal consultant at an organization called PXO Culture. And we've. Focus on workplace transformation, and we look at how do you, um, transform workplaces in an evidence-based value driven way.
[00:08:19] Natal: And of course a lot of that is, of course, underpinned, but with business agility. But these days, I, I don't, I just think that that's a norm in the complex uncertain world in which we work in. Uh, so I feel like it's less about. It's less about the model and it's more about, um, what are you trying to achieve as a business?
[00:08:40] Natal: And then let's find the right methods, uh, to help you get there. But I parti we particularly work with HR and people, teams, um, being out, that's kind of our skillset and our background. But I have a, a really great small, um, very selective team.
[00:08:53] Pia: Perfect. Perfect. So let's, let's dive into this topic. Um, um, I guess what we might need to do is just get some clarity about what Agile is. So before we deep dive into it, let's take a little, a little tour around where Agile's come from and where it is today and and, and how you see it and what it, and what its purpose is.
[00:09:16] Natal: it's always a good question to start with, and, probably one of the best ones I draw on is by someone called Simon Powers and he talks about, um, what, you know, what is the agile mindset? And he talks about three layers to it, and it's about some beliefs. So first of all, it's a belief in complexity.
[00:09:34] Natal: So we live in a complex, uncertain world where we face problems that. Have multiple solutions sitting in them. They're, you know, they're very complex. There's, they're multifaceted. And actually, when you start to try and start to solve them, you actually often change the nature of the problem itself by beginning that solution.
[00:09:56] Natal: Um, because we live in a more, you know, an ecosystem. You know, it's very systems thinking, this complexity concept. Um, and we're seeing that at, at, you know, at play across the world. Now, you know, trump's tariffs is a great example of complexity in action. You do one action and that fires off a whole series of, you know, consequences, some of which can even be positive, um, and others negatives.
[00:10:20] Natal: And, and they're, they're, they're unknown. Um, so to solve these complex problems, we need new methods, but you have to believe that you're dealing with complexity in the first place. That's a core thing to agility. I, I think, and then the next one is a belief in people. So it's the idea that. We have the skills to solve these complex problems, but you need all the skills in the team to get the job done together.
[00:10:43] Natal: And so it's, you know, so agility talks a lot about multi, multi-skilled teams. I call them T-shaped, and it's about. Diversity of skills so you can solve everything together. Um, and this is about, you know, these small teams being close to the customer, responding and adapting real time, but that is very much about breaking down silos and your kind of traditional, I suppose, hierarchies of organization because you need to be able to work much more end to end that full product experience.
[00:11:14] Natal: Um. So that's the other, um, part. And then there's one part which I think is why I always like to talk about this way of describing agile, um, is this proactivity element. And Simon Powers argues that actually the first two are really obvious and well, not really ob, but they, they make sense. Um, but actually you need to believe that you can keep improving.
[00:11:37] Natal: for the, to drive the other two. So, and this is the feedback loop of Agile. So there's the, the proactivity of we, we aim to deliver something of value in a short period of time so we can get it out to get data, to get feedback and understand are we solving the problem we set out to solve?
[00:11:55] Natal: Um, and we use that data to then. Inform the next cycle of work. And that fundamental cycle, as both of you know, is so, you know, is, is the heart of Agile, but it's, it's about that proactivity, it's about continuous improvements, about testing, something validating. Did it work? Did it not? Okay, it didn't. Right.
[00:12:15] Natal: Let's move on to this one next. and that kind of drives the whole thing forward And again, that sounds simple, but as both of you know, that's actually the some of the really hard stuff, and that's probably a bit different to how we've worked a lot across. Time, particularly in organizations because we've set, we set generally set these targets, you know, longer term planning traditionally.
[00:12:37] Natal: Um, and we're also sometimes quite reluctant to show things or, inspect unfinished work. Um, because we want it to be perfect. We want it to be done before we show it to others. Um, but as we know that, that ethos has driven some really great business. Examples.
[00:12:54] Dan: you mentioned there these sort of, these periods of work in which we do things, we, we get close to the customer, we deliver something. I the, these points that I'm talking about,
[00:13:03] Dan: sprints, retros, standups, kanban, all those sort of classic, are they really right at the heart of it or are they, are they optional things that you can pick and choose? So how do the, you know, if you think about the world of agile, are they, do they sit right in it, in in serving those beliefs, if you like?
[00:13:22] Dan: That's the right word.
[00:13:22] Natal: no. Well, they're, they're tools that help you make it happen. Yeah. So they're not irin, they're, some of them are intrinsically agile in how they have put together. Um, so Scrum is a really good example. Um, the, you know, scrum is, is probably the best known because the whole concept of it is based on this agile cycle. It brings it to life, but it is just a tool.
[00:13:46] Natal: And where we often go wrong with agile is we start with these tools. We think that is agile. Um, we often introduce them into situations that I. Are inherently waterfall or more top down or, you know, the opposite of, of agile, you know, plan everything up front, make sure it feels perfect before we get going.
[00:14:07] Natal: and so we, so we have all these tensions where, For a lot of what I, when I work with teams, I talk about the problems that we're needing to solve. So, okay, so what are we trying to solve here? Why do we think we need to work differently? And then we go about finding what are going to be the most relevant tools for this context.
[00:14:27] Natal: Um, and I think the more you. Help people sort of embrace agile in that way and make it all about the business challenges that you're aiming to solve, because that's also the evidence of success, you know, tracking, solving those. It's also about making it an agile experiment in itself. Okay, so we need to do this.
[00:14:48] Natal: We wanna get. We wanna, you know, we wanna see by working this way, will we actually solve these problems? Okay, now let's run an experiment to see how that goes. as both of you know, once you get that going, generally people don't look back. Yes. They, they sometimes evolve. They definitely evolve those tools.
[00:15:03] Natal: They might change certain things, but they don't, they find there's so much energy in working that way. 'cause that proactivity and that people belief starts to really kick in. so yeah, so I, I, no, I don't think it's about you Don't start with the tools though. There's also this chicken and egg concept, so.
[00:15:20] Natal: A lot of organizations I've worked, spent like a year defining the mindset of agile. You know, oh, everyone's gotta have the mindset before you can start working agile. and what is the mindset? Well, the mindset is having aha moments of, oh, this is such a better way to work, but you, so you've gotta do things to enable that.
[00:15:38] Natal: That to happen. So you do need to start with some tools. You need to start with some type of framework. because you need to create experiences that people can have those aha moments. Um, but then the flip side is other organizations that do this massive restructure, right? We're all working agile and this is the set model.
[00:15:56] Natal: And people get so caught up in trying to understand this new model without really understanding the why and some of these methods that sit behind it.
[00:16:06] Pia: and, and I think there is a danger like, like. Many things that agile can become like a religion
[00:16:12] Natal: Totally. Yeah. Evangelistic, yes.
[00:16:14] Natal: I.
[00:16:14] Pia: is, and it, and it can have a whole bunch of quite confusing terminology that can put you off and make you feel like you are a, a failure if you don't either understand it or are able to stick with it.
[00:16:27] Pia: If I go back to teams that, that I'm working with, I think. I think it's fair to say there has to be an initial leap of faith to go from having individual KPIs, uh, quite, quite a individualistic expectation of success, and a belief that the accumulation of those individual KPIs success metrics will achieve either some transformational change or.
[00:16:56] Pia: the development of a product or, but it, but it's going to work. But what ends up happening is that individuals, particularly in HR, are run ragged. They've had a hell of a time in the last sort of five years post covid and trying to get that. Trying to adjust that. So I, I, I see a very natural resistance, like, oh my God is this gonna create more work?
[00:17:21] Pia: Uh, do, do you see that too? Is that, or is that just my really bad facilitation and consulting?
[00:17:27] Natal: God no. Um.
[00:17:29] Pia: I'll take feedback.
[00:17:30] Natal: When it, when it, you know, when it comes to, my profession that, you know, I know and love, but also sometimes I think, why did I end up being in hr? you know, I often used to make a joke that the reason I embraced Agile HR was I wanted to look. I wanted to be liked at barbecues again, because when you turn up at a barbecue and you introduce yourself as, uh, hr, uh oh, um, everyone goes silent.
[00:17:56] Natal: Um, and I think back in the days I used to work at, I worked a lot in banking, which was the, and then there was another silence. So, yeah,
[00:18:02] Dan: multiple layers of non-conversation. Yeah.
[00:18:06] Natal: yeah. So, so for me, well if we talk specifically around, um, HR and people teams, um, but I think it reflects a lot of the structures of organizations, you know, and management structures.
[00:18:19] Natal: HR comes from this tradition of being very, um, uh, topic driven. So, uh, I would be a learning and development professional. Someone working next to me is a recruitment, um, professional or leader. Another person is, uh, reward and comp, you know, compensation and benefits. Another person looks after talent and we, we divide up the, the topics of the people side of the business and our whole kind of profession.
[00:18:45] Natal: Uh, the educational structure has often been based around these topics, or particularly roles. So you have, um, something known as a HR business partner, um, and they're, they're seen as this generalist role. And then you have these other ones where like in learning and development. Professional and they're seen as a specialist.
[00:19:02] Natal: You know, we use all these terms and what's, um, the, the legacy of in HR teams is that we, we get a business challenge and we start from our topic And actually teams have often all had their own remit, their own objectives, their own, initiatives. And they're really passionate. And some of the stuff is awesome.
[00:19:22] Natal: Like it's not, it's all a good intentions 'cause it's all about, you know, trying to create great places to work. But you have the learning and development team producing all this great, you know, learning programs and initiatives. And then you've got the re the reward team announcing their new benefit package.
[00:19:37] Natal: You've got, um, you know, the. Leadership team doing certain leadership work, and we just overwhelm the business and this cognitive load is just so much.
[00:19:48] Natal: Possibly that might have worked when we're in a, a more kind of, uh, complicated environment where there was a clear, clearer cause and effect. You know? And if you did one thing, this will lead to another in an organization.
[00:20:00] Natal: But in complexity, all of, as we were talking about before, complex problems have multiple ways to be solved. And by doing one thing, you start to change the nature of the problem itself. So you and you go and launch some learning programs around productivity, and that starts to change things, but also leads to other consequences.
[00:20:19] Natal: Um, and so what we've got to do is we've gotta think about solving these complex problems together. So how do you build, you know, how do you build AI skills in a business? Really fast so your business can lean into the latest product opportunity. Um, that has so much in it because it's re it's, there's learning, there's, there's enablement of skills, there's reward aspects, there's performance aspects, there's teaming aspects, there's also recruitment or there's, you know, so there's, um, so, so I think the concept of this, why you need to work in Agile is really interesting when you put it into hr because.
[00:20:56] Natal: It's the opposite to how we've kind of come, how we've solved problems before. And if you think about organizations, we've, we've, you know, we do, we are a collection of specialisms, and this is, you know, people will talk about it reflects a very tailor taylorist, you know, background. And we've seen organizations start to shift over the last, you know.
[00:21:16] Natal: 50 years, uh, in re you know, as they start to evolve and change in relation to the, the world that we're engaging with. And, you know, and a lot of agile comes from that. You know, it started, you know, Kanban comes from the Toyota system where it was seen that, you know, the production line needed to change.
[00:21:34] Natal: So you could do much more just in time, you know, solutions. You needed to bring the supervisor and the worker together again to solve problems together. 'cause there was too much separation and, you know, um. The people solving the problems were too far from the customer. These kind of concepts and all of this has kept going and you know, where, where, where, where we are, where we are.
[00:21:54] Natal: But we have so much legacy of traditional ways of working in organizations that are very taylorist and waterfall in. And I think HR has traditionally represented those to the organization. 'cause we represent a lot of these processes. Um, sometimes we're, we're constantly trying to change them and we also often represent management decisions, which is problematic in itself.
[00:22:17] Natal: So I think. The, the need for organizations and business to evolve that we keep talking about in today's world, it almost reflects the need for HR to, because we, we represent so much of that in a, in a business. Um, we enable that to happen. similar things are going on in finance, you know, the need to be much more just in time, you know, um, beyond budgeting, you know, these concepts of.
[00:22:42] Natal: Building budgets that reflect, you know, products or needs, um, rather than, you know, annual re reviews, those kind of things. So, so other support functions I think are facing the same challenges. Um, but for me, that's why it can be so hard to bring these, well, it's not so hard to necessarily bring them in, but to get people to see, to make that leap, I suppose, because it's so different to
[00:23:04] Natal: how they've worked before.
[00:23:05] Dan: and we see this in all teams, I, I, this, uh, even, you know, we, as we see as we call them, teams in name only, you know, they, they're people, even people reporting to the CEO or a business leader, as you say, they are very vertically oriented and don't do these transverse.
[00:23:23] Dan: You know, transverse sort of strategies and your example of AI is brilliant. The, the business wants to accelerate its adoption of ai, but it's sort of, it's implemented at a, in a vertical way, not in that sort of t-shaped way. So we see this. Right across all teams. And I, I suspect that HR is probably one of the worst because they're so specialized and they often don't see that, honestly.
[00:23:46] Dan: But that's the opportunity. But what occurs to me Natal is that we talk about agile in a way. One of its benefits, but also a downside is it covers so much, doesn't it? You're talking about It's really, it's a sort of, you've got your mindset, you've got the complexity, you've got that transversal strategies, you've got these ways of working, these tools. It's, it's, it's a huge, it is, it, it covers everything, doesn't it? And then, which is, it's, it's power, but also presumably one of the, what makes it quite difficult to adopt?
[00:24:17] Natal: I think what's interesting is that Agile is probably a collection of ideas and theories and tools that have developed over time. Um, and, and possibly not appreciating that historical context can, catch people out. So I, I, I like to try and put it in that, you know, in that timeline of where we're at in terms of, of society and organizational development, I suppose.
[00:24:42] Natal: and generally that helps people go, oh, okay. Yeah, because also there's this idea of. people go, oh, can I still, do I still plan? You know, do I still do long-term plans as well as short, you know, um, or is it just, am I just doing this, this sprint? And, and there's this thing of, oh, we, we forget everything that we know up until now, and now we do it this way.
[00:25:00] Natal: And it's not. Everything is, everything's contextual and we already, and so much of what we already do is good and you, you keep drawing on that. Um. It's like a, you know, the latest idea in learning, you know, um, oh, can, is appreciative inquiry still okay? Or do we now, do I now need to?
[00:25:18] Natal: And it's like, yeah, all these techniques are really good. It's about knowing when to use them to drive to get the outright outcome. So, um, so I think it's un yeah, I think it's appreciating that and then it's, I think it is because what. What agility, like if I call, I use the term business agility a lot now rather than just agile.
[00:25:35] Natal: Because agile often represents more the, the tools and, and people get a bit scared about the terminology, but business agility is going, okay, as a business, we need to achieve these outcomes. Um, most, you know, and. All businesses at the moment talk about being closer to the customer, delivering value faster, you know, um, being able to rapidly, test and release new products, be, so there's, there's some core themes around it, being able to be more resilient, you know, in, in these times of, of immense change.
[00:26:08] Natal: so once you've, you've got that, then you sort of go, all right, so then let's look at the methods that. That get us there. and I try and make it much more about the business challenge that you are aiming to achieve and what are the right methods of work to achieve these outcomes?
[00:26:25] Natal: Uh, what is more, what is, what's the evidence show shows us is more successful? And I think when you, you keep bringing it back to let's be led by data. Let's look at how we solve this problem. most people will agree that. And they all, you know, oh yeah, we need to be more collaborative. We need to be much more, and, you know, we're, uh, we need to be more accountable in our, you know, and where we're responsible in the, the customer journey or the product journey.
[00:26:49] Natal: So I find that it always comes back to the same kind of things. Um, and then you can quite easily go, all right, well there's, there's certain methods that can help you get there. So let's, let's try those. Yeah.
[00:27:00] Pia: and what does the data tell us about? I guess the benefits of using Agile principles, what, what, what, what's the research or the evidence-based thinking that that underpins? Underpins that.
[00:27:11] Natal: So well in terms of the teams that I'm, I work with, and, um, what we look at is it's the, well, it's, uh, it's the deliver. You do deliver faster, but that's because you, uh, ruthlessly prioritize in the first place. So by decreasing the amount of things you're going after, you then are more able to get things done.
[00:27:32] Natal: because if you are saying, okay, this is the problem and we are gonna, this is the value metrics we're gonna track, so you might be, we've got, we're losing people, uh, from an organization, uh, after two years, they're saying there's something wrong with career development.
[00:27:46] Natal: They don't know how to build their career. Okay? This could be so much in that we're already thinking about what's going on. We can start talking about, well, the value of doing this is if we actually keep more people after two years, we gonna have more. We, um, reduce costs around recruitment and onboarding.
[00:28:03] Natal: We have more knowledge in the organization. We build more loyal customers 'cause we can solve the complex problems. 'cause we've keep the knowledge and actually gonna be more innovative with our product. And there's some productivity that we can track. So already we've got these value figures that we can start to track as we solve this problem.
[00:28:19] Natal: And then once you start to build certain solutions, um, and this particular example, one organization found that actually there was mo multiple problems to solve, of course, but one of the most obvious was that actually it was a big organization. There was loads of career opportunities, but no one knew how to find them or apply for them or where to go next.
[00:28:39] Natal: So. they ultimately started to build a, a, a kind of a marketplace website that it would allow people to connect with. Job opportunities internally, but what they did is they ran small experiments to test that this idea would even work itself. So would people want to be part sign up to this website?
[00:29:00] Natal: Would they wanna put their LinkedIn details there? Would they, would they? What happens if they click on a recommended role? um, so we're already looking at data as you go along of. Is this working? Does this solve the problem? By running those experiments, they found that yes, it works in these parts of the company, but actually this part of the company can't even access the technology because they're totally, you know, and so it's a waste of money to even go there.
[00:29:25] Natal: Um, also there's, you know, these issues to, to solve. and then once you release your product, you can be tracking user. behavior, are we seeing the types of activities that we know will lead to these long-term value figures? So we want to see that we get more internal candidates, we wanna see more movements of roles, and ultimately we wanna see retention.
[00:29:46] Natal: But that retention is six months, two years down the track. So you, you need data to be tracking on how you're getting there. And, and again, it's, yes, there's, um, and I sort of went off on a slight tangent, but it shows for me, you, you wanna break it down into the problem you're solving and showing the data.
[00:30:04] Natal: and because if you. Too many times, say in a human resource situation is you go out saying, we are going to change retention, but retention is such a long term, big thing, or engagement is a great one. We are gonna, we wanna create a more engaged workforce. What does that mean and how would you, why and what's that look like?
[00:30:24] Natal: So Agile helps you break it down into, well, what's the most immediate thing to solve? How do we actually get evidence that we have solved it or we are solving it, and we can show that to our stakeholders, and then we can be tracking these long-term metrics over time. but yeah, in terms of benefits overall, it's getting, uh, getting, getting evidence of fixing the problem faster.
[00:30:47] Natal: being able to show that link between what I call lead and lag indicators. So here's the lead indicators of how people are behaving, or, you know, they're downloading things, they're watching things, they're having the right conversations. That's all activity. And, um, we used to use that as metrics. You know, how many people are doing their career development plan, you know, well that's great, but what does it lead to?
[00:31:09] Natal: But you can use that activity that then show the long term, um, change on your business. it also, uh, allows you to, uh. I think to be much more commercially minded. So you are talking about, you, you use the same language as the wider business. And it means, and in HR we constantly talk about where you wanna be commercially minded and, you know, be seen as adding to the business rather than a cost function. Um, and just by operating this way means we shift into that business, um, focus. Yeah.
[00:31:41] Dan: And so I just getting to the, uh, grit in the oyster here. What, what's the, what pushback do you have and, um, yeah, what's, what's the, what are your main objections to, to this new way of, you know, basically to, to making this change in organizations?
[00:31:58] Natal: it's more around that. It's the skin in the game. So, um, everyone wants to see the positive outcomes that Agile can bring, so it's quite easy to bring in a few methods at a team level. Okay. We now use a Kanban board. We, we have some, some of these ceremonies where we, and we, we get better, you know, we have a better team outcome.
[00:32:19] Natal: So where there's evidence of being more collaborative, we've got more transparency of work, we are kind of, you know, um, we're, you know, we're getting things done faster. So, um, there might be some immediate metrics that you can measure. But fairly soon, um, structures get in the way and, The way that we have our operating model, both in human resources and in the wider organization, can start to to create barriers.
[00:32:46] Natal: Um, and also this expectation of how to deliver work. So we might have a team go off and run a sprint and do some great work, but then. It needs to go through these levels of, you know, decision and committee. It gets, um, unpicked, no, we'd actually not gonna support that because of this budget. So there's a lot of things that start to slow things down, undo the work, um, and really make doing agile quite hard.
[00:33:14] Natal: Um, and if you, you are maybe using a backlog and all the work is transparent in the team and you've. You know, you're running really well that way, but then you're asked to do a big, you know, manu, um, uh, slide pack update to various stakeholders because they don't really wanna come and have a look at your backlog to get the update.
[00:33:33] Natal: Then that creates extra work,
[00:33:35] Natal: Doesn't
[00:33:35] Natal: it? And it's sort of not so So you constantly get these tensions. So I think Where you get the biggest barrier, um, is senior leaders not being willing to. Be ready to back the change with actual structural change. And I'm not a big supporter of doing that straight up.
[00:33:53] Natal: Um, so a good example of a team I worked with where we actually introduced some design thinking initially to get people to think about how do you solve problems better, how do you prototype and test solutions, you know, that kind of, some of those core aspects of that, of, of agility. And then we brought in, um.
[00:34:12] Natal: uh, across the whole function, uh, an agile cadence. So we went, all right, let's try and always understand the kind of the big things we're going after our portfolio of work. Now let's have a, and we actually had a monthly cadence of, okay, everyone goes off and gets work done in their teams, and then by the end of it.
[00:34:28] Natal: We're gonna show unfinished work to each other and get feedback and, and review it. And then we're gonna have a retrospective in teams. How do we get things done? What would we change next time? And as a, as a management team, we would do this thing called adapt and plan. So every month, okay. Okay. Based on the strategy, based on the next quarter, what are we going after this month and why?
[00:34:48] Natal: Um, and is there any key changes? So we brought that in. And what that showed is actually the way that the teams were structured caused to so many, barriers, handovers. It was so hard to get people to start releasing people from existing work to go and work on this new project that was seen as really important.
[00:35:07] Natal: and so that then led to a whole new structure and it's one of the best I've come across in, uh, in people teams, uh, at the moment. but you needed a senior leader that went, you know what, we've actually gotta back this, um, to make this happen. And I think, yeah. And a lot of senior leaders won't do that. They get very, uh, it's quite a vulnerable position to be in. Yeah.
[00:35:27] Pia: And is that because they've built, they've built their practice on their own individual expertise and, and there is that bit of leap of faith where. You know, there's an element where you have to unlearn things to relearn things, and there's a vulnerability around that.
[00:35:45] Natal: Yeah, there's, I think there's a couple of things. One is the, there is, there's a lot at stake it feels like, for them to, to fail, I suppose. Um, interestingly, this one example I'm thinking about, the, the head of didn't make too much of a big song and dance about it, you know what I mean?
[00:36:01] Natal: Um, because I think we do that a lot in organizations. We're restructuring and it's for these reasons. And we do a big cultural change project and we, we put so much in it. Um, and so there's so much ego by that stage. And, and if we think about agile, one thing that. Following that shorter cycle does is it unpacks the, there's less ego because, you know, if you've already had to show, show the unfinished work, get feedback, you know, people rip it apart, uh, you're now into the next stage and you're taking in that feedback and you're showing it again, there's less invested.
[00:36:34] Natal: You know, I haven't spent too long on this and I'm not gonna be too ashamed, I suppose. Um, and I think when we, the bigger the bet, the more kind of. The more ego involved. And so I think it's about how the, how do we help senior leaders set up an environment where they don't feel like That it's such a big risk. So, and I, and I think maybe the, the, the story I just told is that there was evidence of why we should make this change. Um, and so leaning into the methods first, you know, working in new ways, but really analyzing it and going, okay, well what's stopping this being successful? Or, you know, or, and probably having in mind that, hmm, I'm probably gonna have to support this with a structural change, but let's find out what.
[00:37:19] Natal: Why and how first, because then when you make the decision, they can feel so much more comfortable that Yeah, I think this is the, the right decision.
[00:37:27] Pia: Yeah, I, I once had a, a, I had a, a team I was working with, and I, and I, I, I gave them the scrum book, Dan, to the, to the leader of the team. And we raised it recently when I was with them about, and he said, that was the most boring book I have ever read in my life. I just could not, this is Jeff Sutherland, he said.
[00:37:47] Pia: And so when Fear was talking about us thinking what are we gonna be doing? And he, and then he turned around and he said, but everyone's embraced it. So I think it might've been me. You know, I said, you know, and he said, because it? because you, he was observing that, that Yeah. That, that the energy was building, you know, and I think there's a, there's an intersection of, um, the time boxing. So you have to get certain things done within a period of time. That transparency. Is, um, I mean everyone, Dan and I did af when, when we did in our professional service business, people started crying at the first standup. So that, uh, actually crying. We thought, well, this is, this is go going really well. Um, so and I think there's that, that, that transparency and then that accountability there, they're, they're three things that are quite tricky.
[00:38:37] Pia: ' cause you could, you could get on with work and people don't really have a clue what you do, but you have some kind of aura of being busy. That all goes. That all goes, and that's what you have to trade for the outcome that you're all collectively trying to work towards.
[00:38:52] Natal: Totally. And, and actually, you know, Pierre, the, you know, we talk a lot about this, don't we, in, in terms of leadership development. Um, it's, it actually asks for a very different role of a leader. You know, the, you know, you are very much, um, you are the, you know, you, it's this servant leadership concept of, of agility where, you know, you serve the team.
[00:39:12] Natal: So you are all about the. Helping the team get the job done. Um, and there's, you know, this is what we're going after or here, I'm gonna help you prioritize, I'm gonna help you make some big decisions, but actually you are gonna make it happen and I'm gonna support that. And that is a very, you know, if you do take.
[00:39:30] Natal: The example you talked about to begin with, someone that's built their craft, um, and they're now seen as the, the, the senior expert. That's a very different role to, to take on, but it's also the kind of roles we're asking for in society a lot more. Uh, you know, and, and and I see this, I think this tension plays out in society at the moment.
[00:39:49] Natal: So. You get, um, politicians and, um, other, uh, figures making big claims. Yep. We are gonna do this and we are gonna solve it all by, um, and actually really, you know, are we gonna, and what's the evidence?
[00:40:23] Natal: And, and we often make these huge claims without any evidence yet, you know, oh, yes, we're going to, you know, COVID was a great example. Oh, we are going to, you know, get this under control and, you know, and. Sort this out. No, you're not. Because this is, uh, an ecosystem where a virus is exponentially, you know, and so where, where some of the best leaders are at play at the moment are the ones that embrace that uncertainty and complexity and go, all right, well, based on what evidence we have now, this is the best decision at hand.
[00:40:34] Natal: And what we're aiming for is this. Um, and I need you all to lean in and be part of that so we can actually make this happen. but that's quite vulnerable and it's about, because it's saying that you don't have the answers, and I think that's maybe, that's hard for some, for people in a very public.
[00:40:50] Natal: Position, which, let's be honest, senior leaders in organizations, they, there is, you know, some of them are paid a lot of money To be certain we have this bias of certainty, because it makes us feel comfortable and it makes us feel safe. But actually it's often the opposite, isn't it?
[00:41:06] Pia: Yeah. I think that's a, that's, that is a complete myth. Um, because, because it believes that one person has, has had sort of some kind of additional life, that they have more, more expertise than everyone else. But the ones that are really clever are the ones that are going, okay, we can identify what the problem is, but how are we collectively going to, to, solve it?
[00:41:26] Pia: I I just wanted to go back and another thing about that accountability. One, one. of the things that I, I quite often bang on about is, um, definitions of done. we have this, oh my God. we we, we still knock our own heads over this one because if you produce. You, you, you're producing a task and it's, and it's either sitting on a Kanban or it's sitting on some kind of mechanism. That task can be rubbish because it's so broad that you have no idea to say whether you've got evidence, whether you are achieving it or not. But then we fill ourselves up, but I'm working really hard. Yes. But we're not necessarily delivering that outcome. And I think that's quite, quite confronting when you make that change.
[00:42:12] Pia: You know, ' cause you, you're still working hard, but it's, it's more transparent. Whether it's actually what does success look like in four weeks time or whatever, how long the sprint is.
[00:42:22] Natal: and this is across all business, um, and all business areas in an organization. We've, um, we, we see activity as, as. The delivery as the outcome. And we've often measured activity. um, and that's very different to value. And you know, value is that people are.
[00:42:44] Natal: I don't know, buying it, using it. Um, recommend it, you know, um, or, and there's, and then if we think about organizational value, it's about that people want to work there, give their best life, best working lives, um, you know, recommend it to other people, um, you know, uh, productive and really want to, um, give feedback to others, take on feedback, do better, all that kind of stuff.
[00:43:08] Natal: and so you can have a lot of activity and you can think that you're very, as you said, very busy, but also you can measure, think that that is productivity. and so what Agile does is that it, it talks of, you know, as you know, yeah, agile is about delivering value incrementally, and you need evidence of that value every time and a definition of what that is.
[00:43:27] Natal: Um, and I think that is. Quite brutal sometimes when you first come up against it. but it's exactly what you need. Um, 'cause otherwise we are just, we're kind of kidding ourselves. Um, and I think it's really interesting, you know, you could take that into so many debates at the moment around organizational issues.
[00:43:44] Natal: The classic one being the return to office versus hybrid versus. And it's so opinion and, uh, driven and so there's so many assumptions and everyone has their version of how people work best, you know? Okay. but what's we, it's actually about how do you get work done and how do you get this value delivered? And that's what we should be focusing on.
[00:44:06] Natal: well actually if we just focus on, getting the product shipped, you know, evidence of the product being, um, ready and, um, good enough to ship and get out to the customer in time, and actually delivering against some of our core objectives of, of the project.
[00:44:20] Natal: They found that actually you wanted, people needed deep work to get deep work done, and then there was certain times that you needed to come together to collaborate. And then other times where it was okay to be caught up in other things that were happening in the organization. But if you didn't time box that and really protect the deep work and the teamwork, then you, you just didn't get enough done.
[00:44:43] Natal: Um, and then you create in a working environment. That helps that. So it might be that it's that there's three days in the office where you get certain work done. There's another day where it's the water cooler day and the, you know, but then there's the certain days where it's at. You're at home getting that, but that's.
[00:45:00] Natal: That's not that you should all be in the office or, you know, like it's, um, so again, we go back to these blanket kind of assumptions and decisions and a lot of it's driven by the fact that senior leaders think if they can see everyone doing work, then that's pro productivity.
[00:45:14] Dan: we always say this on the show, but if you think you can't pretend to work in an office, you lack imagination. I mean, you think you're just seeing someone in an office, um, is, uh, is productivity, then, uh, you are deluding yourself.
[00:45:26] Natal: Well, the, the, old, um, banking one, 'cause I worked in finance a lot when I was younger And, um, so the, you, you had two jackets. So if you bought a suit, you'd buy one, one set of trousers, of course, and then two jackets. And the one jacket was the one that stayed on your chair and the other one was the one that you wore. You wore our home. So then they thought you were still in the office.
[00:45:46] Dan: I know my wife used to work in banking in the nineties and people used to play Tetris all day so that they could work late, um, and do the, um, yeah, fake productivity. So, um, natal, this has, just, just, just really unpacking, this has been fantastic. We got a couple of quick fire questions to, uh, to finish our time together.
[00:46:03] Dan: First of all, if someone's listening to this and saying, well, I'd like a piece of that for my team or my business, where can, where can they start?
[00:46:10] Natal: Uh, well possibly not reading the Scrum book, um, uh, as, uh, which, which we often used to do, didn't we? Yeah. Like, yeah.
[00:46:20] Pia: it.
[00:46:20] Dan: Start with a magazine or a book. Yeah.
[00:46:22] Pia: Yeah, it was great.
[00:46:23] Natal: so well there's two things. One, as an individual, I actually say, uh, try personal Kanban, um, because, Kanban is about understanding your flow of work and understanding. You've got the. Um, backlog. And then you've got the to-do doing and done.
[00:46:39] Natal: And you can only ever have so many things in that doing column because, and we call it work in progress. And every day if you go, okay, what's my definition of done? So at the end of the today, uh, if I have this. Slide pack done. You know, I have this report reviewed and actually I get to the gym, or actually I pick up my child by this particular time or so, and then you'll see that all these other things that you optimistically think you're gonna be able to do and you actually think is really important, and you're quite worried about not getting them done, you're not gonna get them done today.
[00:47:12] Natal: So actually applying some of these key principles, seeing what you, what's the what? The realistic work in progress that you can even just have as an individual, I find really effective because it opens people up to the, the core concepts. And then the other one I just say is, um. Go and find a nice juicy problem that's been banging around the organization for a while.
[00:47:33] Natal: No one seems to have solved it. Um, uh, get a multi-skilled team together and, apply some of these key principles. So, okay, we are gonna run an experiment, uh, and we are going use a backlog. We are going to use, you know, several ceremonies and we are gonna see how that goes for the next month. Two months, three months, and we're gonna measure the outcomes.
[00:47:55] Natal: Um, and just by doing that and giving yourself the space to do that, I just generally, you just get, you learn so much from it and you'll be set in motion. Um, all I would say is don't try and you can't do it on the side of the desk, you know, at the, so if you're gonna do this project, it's either you're all in, 10 to three every day and you're working on that, you know, for a kind of more intense, um, period of time, or it's every Thursday. So every Thursday it's a project day, and that means you get together for meetings, but you actually get work done. Um, and everyone else knows that. Um, and so you've gotta carve out space to, to give agile a go. Um, and too many people try and do it while doing everything else, which doesn't quite work.
[00:48:37] Dan: Great. It's so great. Recommendations. And I, I have my, the first one is just a fantastic idea. I have my Dan Kanban that I do use individually, and, um, it's, I hadn't thought about that actually as a way to start, which is, um, which is just genius. Fantastic. Thank you, Elle. Final question. Um, what is your media recommendation for us? What would you recommend in terms of.
[00:48:58] Natal: So, um, I would encourage everyone to, well, there's an, she's doing a pod, um, a podcaster. I'm on the podcast, um, doing a newsletter, a Substack, of course, like everyone else now. but Margaret Henan, which, um, you may have, uh, come across and she's. For me has written some of the most, um, influential books that I have read, um, around dealing with complexity.
[00:49:25] Natal: And a lot of what Margaret Heffernan talks about is very, you know, agile underpins everything. She talks about how, you know, to solve complex problems, we need to lean into experimentation. We need to understand uncertainty, but she actually never really uses the term agile, uh, as you go through it. And it's less about the, the methods and it's more about, the societal constructs that we live in. but she puts a lot of this, it just. You know, everyday ideas and thoughts into a newsletter. So that's kind of the easiest way to consume her work.
[00:49:54] Dan: Perfect. We will include that link in the show notes. Um, Natal, it's been a wonderful conversation. We've gone really deep into this important topic for HR about, more broadly, as you say, business agility itself. And, um, this is a key to solving business issues, but also as you say, our societal ones as well.
[00:50:13] Natal: Yeah, we've got some pretty big problems to
[00:50:15] Natal: solve, so.
[00:50:16] Pia: we've got a few juicy ones.
[00:50:17] Dan: Yeah, we have
[00:50:18] Dan: so
[00:50:18] Natal: big juicy ones that's been banging around for a while.
[00:50:21] Dan: one of those. Exactly. So I hope if a listener could pick up one of those, it will be really excellent. Um, but thank you so much for being on We Not Me Today, natal. It's been an absolute pleasure.
[00:50:31] Natal: Thank you very much.
[00:50:35] Dan: point that really jumps out for me from what Natal was saying was this point about activity versus value. And I think that goes so deep. And if I think about the teams we often work with, there is a lot of activity. There's busyness and, and in a way you have to show you are really busy. but When you start talking about these agile practices, which bring both transparency and genuine accountability on a sort of weekly, daily, weekly, monthly basis, you can get pushback. And it's because, to be frank, there's a sort of. Vagueness around a lot of organizations that, you know, we're all busy, we're all doing things great, that's fine.
[00:51:14] Dan: And it's activity over value. And that sort of, that vagueness, um, sort of is a little bit of a cover for everyone. Not saying they're working hard, they're not, they're working hard. You know, they might not be having a great time, but, eliminating that is the key to, I think, personal satisfaction, but also organizational productivity. But it's a bit of a big shift because you're suddenly in the spotlight.
[00:51:36] Pia: my personal theory is, is that post covid. We all got very transactional and very busy and we haven't quite pulled ourselves outta that. And there isn't in order to here, you know what, like she's talking about, what in terms of that value, what are you trying to achieve and, and then how do you demonstrate and track measurement and the evidence about whether you are achieving that or not.
[00:51:58] Pia: And then the time blocks that you create the sprints. Just the what am I going to achieve in this period of time? Things slide. And I, we all do it, you know, like, it's like we all get busy. We get compete, competing, commitments. Uh, we have business as usual, like we're demanded upon. And then the big stuff we forget. It slides, and what this does is hold your feet to the fire to go. Well, even if you say you're going to do that small bit of it, did you
[00:52:29] Dan: absolutely. That's crucial. And you know, you remember when we introduced this, it'd be like in our professional services days, that company, it was a successful company, but I'm pretty sure that we had pretty much never completed a project that wasn't for a client. And when we introduced Agile, we were able to move forward these things that improved the organization actually, you know, even building software products and things like that, that that o otherwise would be just dumped as soon as a client sticks their head up.
[00:52:55] Dan: So it?
[00:52:56] Dan: it was the first time we actually moved those, those projects forward that genuinely added sort of more strategic value, if you like, which were wasn't driven by a client, which remains important, but you can, you can actually really. You can bring these other work streams in that don't get
[00:53:11] Pia: a and it's that, it's that classic, you know, that classic sound. We all know it, you know, it allows you to be on the business, not just in the business which is a well used terminology, but it's actually quite satisfying. ' cause then what you're effectively doing, if you're in, if you're looking at this from an HR perspective, you really are shaping the workforce because you're getting.
[00:53:32] Pia: On it to think about it rather than reacting to it and it's going, it's gonna be exceptionally demanding you know, as a customer for hr. So, so you have to identify certain things to be able to go, well, well, we've gotta get our own house in order. We've gotta go operate the way that we, that we need to be in order to deliver that value.
[00:53:54] Pia: Otherwise, you're just gonna be criticized for not delivering value scale back and replaced by ai. Well, that'd be
[00:54:00] Dan: There you go. Bingo. And I mean, and it's a brilliant example that Natal gave and we've seen this play out that if you HR want to be more business focused and seen as business focused, when you are talking about your activities, don't say we're doing talent development, l and d Comp and Ben say, we are driving ai.
[00:54:18] Dan: AI adoption across the business. You know, that's, that's actual business talk, isn't it? And you can then combine all of those pieces in into one. So, and that sort of brings us into this T-shaped, T, um, um, T-shaped teams, T-shaped leaders, um, thing which is, which really is sort of at the heart of.
[00:54:36] Dan: Of these transverse strategies is how, yes, you've got your specialism, but actually the top of that T is the one that's really gonna deliver the organizational value. and I've done quite a bit of work recently with. Teams, particularly top teams, helping 'em to see that that side of things, the, their, main role.
[00:54:56] Dan: Um, and actually, um, Patrick Lencioni's really eloquent on this topic. Your main job if you're on a top team is to lead the business, not to lead your function.
[00:55:04] Pia: so I think Natal's initial comment about the mindset is really important. that there is a, a vulnerability where you've got to a certain point in your professional career based on the things that you've done. You're feeling a sort of a whiff of, um, either overwhelm or burnout or not really being able to get it to, to the level of productivity in this world.
[00:55:29] Pia: And you've gotta have a level. Of vulnerability to stop doing some of the things that you're doing and embrace this and that, that requires a mindset. It's not easy. but I see enormous growth for, for teams and individuals that embrace that. You know, it's a bit bumpy for a while, but that, that, that provides a different level of conversation and, and I'm really privileged to, because of the work that we do, will be part of standups from teams that are operating in other countries. And so there could be cultural, viewpoints on this that you think, well, I dunno what that's gonna, and I'm watching things going. This is amazing. They're having debates. They're talking about the actual things. It's the value, value, value, not activity.
[00:56:12] Pia: What will that deliver? and it's a really sense of satisfaction because you can feel the speed of the business. You can feel the delivery. You feel the outcome.
[00:56:18] Dan: Yeah. And you know, they're working on the things that will make the most difference at the heart of this is what will deliver the biggest value. So, um, yeah, it's, it's really refreshing and I, I, I, I know there's some challenges in adopting it, but I can commend it to anyone because when you're out the other side, you just feel more productive and you are more productive. Um.
[00:56:36] Dan: it's more satisfying and actually pays back into that engagement piece.
[00:56:39] Pia: and I think another bit, and I think Natal. Touched on this, um, which is retrospectives. So you, you never stop learning. So it, it's not like you're striving for perfection. You are striving to learn to get the information back, to evolve, to become better. um, and I, I find that those retros, which is, you know, what went well, what didn't go so well, what have we learn or going to do differently?
[00:57:05] Pia: Simple questions that actually. are hugely valuable for, for teams and quite often we again become so busy and don't become mechanistic about the whole agile thing that you miss the point, which is to learn,
[00:57:19] Dan: It's really interesting you say that. 'cause Roy Brachey, um, who's a Squadify user, and I've worked with his team and he's a real, he just knows Agile in tech tech really, really well. And it's, it was interesting hearing him talk about it. He just, he f he starts with the retro, not, not.
[00:57:36] Dan: Physically, but that's, he sees that as the, as you are saying, the absolute crux. If you can make the retro work and you've gotta really build your skills that will drive everything else. And it's so right. 'cause that's where your learning comes from. And actually where the safety of the team is tested. Is everyone having a voice?
[00:57:52] Dan: Can everyone speak up? Are you, are you actually changing as a team, not just. You know, going through the motions of the, of the retro. So I think you are right. I think that's, it's almost another sort of thing to really think about how you can do that well and it's, it's, it's, um, it's multifactorial, but it can be, it's at the heart of it.
[00:58:10] Dan: I think It was interesting hearing Laal because a few times she talks about societal issues and she, she's got a very, she's got a view on what's actually going on in the world here, and I think that point, she made at the end about the role of the leader. I think that I. You know, if we look at political leaders, organizational leaders, there's been an expectation that they are all knowing and they're right all the time.
[00:58:32] Dan: Clearly, in a complex world, we need a different role of leadership. We need to judge our politicians in a different way, and, Uh, any, any leader in society that they need to be, people who are learning, who are experimenting, being, you know, not having that huge amount of hubris, but actually saying, let's try this and see what, see what happens.
[00:58:54] Dan: This is, we, we're constantly learning and it's a mile from the current model, and, and, and it is not just the leaders that are at fault. We, we as, as sort of citizens are at fault for. For expecting that of our leaders and it's just not possible anymore. Um, and we are far better to have a sort of more. If you like, an agile version of a leader. Um, but we've got a long way to go. But, um, let's see if we can see if we can move a little bit in that direction.
[00:59:20] Dan: But that is it for this episode. We not me, as supported by Squadify, Squadify helps any team to build engagement. And drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net, and this will include a glossary of Agile terms. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:59:43] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.