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🎙️ THE Conversation is a monthly podcast that brings together diverse voices to engage in honest, courageous, and deeply relevant discussions about race and justice. Co-hosted by The Rev. Will Mebane and Onjalé Scott Price, this award-winning series was created by Falmouth Community Television (FCTV) to open dialogue and foster education on issues of racial equity—starting at the local level and rippling outward.
Each episode features panel discussions, community voices, and expert guests who explore how racism and bias shape our everyday lives across institutions such as education, healthcare, housing, religion, and more. With a focus on awareness, action, and community connection, THE Conversation aims to inspire lasting, meaningful change—one conversation at a time.
Originally launched in 2020, the show has received the Rika Welch Community Impact Award and continues to spark partnerships, elevate marginalized voices, and support anti-bias education throughout Cape Cod and beyond.
Listen and be part of THE Conversation—because change starts with listening.
00:00:19:09 - 00:00:30:29
Emily Leung
00:00:31:02 - 00:00:53:06
Onjalé Scott Price
Welcome back to another episode of The Conversation. I am so excited to have my friend Reverend Will with us again today. And we're really excited about this topic. It's definitely something that we're talking about a lot in our community and in the nation. We're going to be talking about asylum seekers and refugees and people who are immigrating to the United States.
00:00:53:08 - 00:01:17:18
Onjalé Scott Price
So I do want to put out a trigger warning. We do talk very briefly about violence, very briefly about what people may be going through as they become, asylum seekers, immigrants to United States. So I just want to let our viewers know that that may come up in the discussion. So let's jump into our question. How does racism impact decisions about the status of those seeking asylum in the United States?
00:01:17:20 - 00:01:26:21
Onjalé Scott Price
So we'll start with that and hear what the people on the street have to say. Let's go and see.
00:01:26:24 - 00:02:04:18
David Forsberg
Real. Well, asylum is a controversial issue right now, obviously, with the heavy buildup on the southern border. And I think it would be crazy to not deny that race is a factor in just about all of our institutions, in this country. And certainly the Asylum Application project, process is, is no exception. I think that there are some difficult signs, in that, documentation is very, very difficult, particularly for people coming from places like Venezuela and Nicaragua.
00:02:04:21 - 00:02:34:14
David Forsberg
You know, they arrive with hardly any clothes and fairly disoriented. And, frankly, the actions of our some of our elected officials of late have added to that disorientation and made the process even more complicated, and difficult. The heartening news is that actually in the statistics, about the percentage of asylum seekers being, approved has actually improved, since the early 2000s.
00:02:34:16 - 00:03:08:01
David Forsberg
And that hopefully that trend will continue because obviously, most of the asylum seekers, particularly those coming from our southern, neighbors, like Nicaragua and Venezuela and Honduras, they're, they're they're facing, you know, some real hurdles, and, frankly, what they would go back to is, is violence and poverty. And certainly I think you could make the case for that, violence is a form of persecution.
00:03:08:03 - 00:03:44:07
Queen Banda
I feel like racism does affect those seeking asylum. I'm looking at, those the candidate side. Anyways, depending on whom we are at war with and how we view them. So let's say Muslims and the Arab nations, people are less sympathetic. Almost. Sometimes I feel like they do not even see them as humans. And for those candidates, it can be very, very difficult for them to garner sympathy.
00:03:44:09 - 00:04:11:15
Queen Banda
Also gain resources. To help them in their journey. And, apart from if you do have money, yes, you can go the route of hiring a lawyer, but for asylum seekers, most of them do not have money, never mind their own possessions. So you really do depend on the sympathy of the people to which the country you're going to.
00:04:11:17 - 00:04:16:07
Queen Banda
And if that is not there, it's so hard for you to plead your case.
00:04:16:10 - 00:04:38:13
Onjalé Scott Price
So welcome back to the conversation. We are very excited to have a couple special guests with us today. And so I'd like us to reflect on what we just heard from people on the street answering the question, how does racism impact decisions about the status of those seeking asylum in the United States? And I think Queen had a really interesting point here.
00:04:38:13 - 00:05:07:21
Onjalé Scott Price
She said that when we're at war with certain countries or groups of people that they seem to, we as a country seem to be less sympathetic to those same groups of people coming to seek asylum in the United States. I thought that was a really interesting point, but I I'd like to pass it over to our state representative, Dylan Fernandez, who served, wonderfully for us since 2017, in the Massachusetts House representing Martha's Vineyard, Elizabeth Islands, Nantucket.
00:05:07:21 - 00:05:15:03
Onjalé Scott Price
And it was four precincts in Falmouth. Are you do you still have four in Falmouth, or is it down to three?
00:05:15:05 - 00:05:21:19
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
I'm down to three. Yeah. 12465.
00:05:21:21 - 00:05:22:24
Onjalé Scott Price
All right. Well, yeah.
00:05:22:26 - 00:05:26:25
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Well, well, that's what I lost. North power. Yeah. Oh.
00:05:26:28 - 00:05:42:00
Onjalé Scott Price
Bummer. Well, thanks for joining us, Dylan. Yeah, I'd like to ask you if you have any thoughts on either what either of our people on the street had to say about this question, or your own thoughts about how does racism impact these decisions on people seeking asylum in the United States?
00:05:42:03 - 00:06:13:05
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Well, I mean, it certainly, impacts the the public sentiment around it. You know, I think just the the dichotomy between, the response to, the invasion of Ukraine versus the invasion and Iraq or just like, completely different in the American psyche for a number of different issues. But I think race is certainly plays a part.
00:06:13:05 - 00:06:43:02
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And, and that and plays a part in almost all issues, in American life, sadly, to this day. So, so, yeah, I mean, yeah, I think if, if there were, you know, it's, you know, I don't think we could do a good job of, of reconciling that. And, and we need to do a better job as a, as a country of trying to be as, as racist blinders as possible, I think.
00:06:43:02 - 00:07:11:19
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And, and, and how people, arrive in this country. But I also think it's about, you know, it's about helping those who are, who are most vulnerable in other countries and helping those from war torn countries and helping those people who, regardless of their racial background, are going through an incredibly tough time. And, you know, I think we do that through our through a number of ways, but now predominantly through our refugee system.
00:07:11:21 - 00:07:39:07
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And in the US. And, you know, we've seen that, that we've taken in, several, well, tens of thousands, I think, around 150,000 people, from Ukraine, you know, a war torn country. And that does kind of pale into comparison to example, for example, on how many people we've taken. And, from, you know, say, say, Venezuela.
00:07:39:09 - 00:08:09:22
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
You know, there's people lined up, there's over 100,000 Venezuelans lined up at the southern border. But I think the Biden administration has only taken an hour pledge to take in around 30,000, maybe a little under. And so, you know, there's a discrepancy there, but also the the factors are really different, as well, in terms of a regime collapsing and then the other, under like experiencing a war with our traditionally our, our, our most hated adversary.
00:08:09:22 - 00:08:38:09
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
So, so yeah, I mean, look, I think we, we could do a lot more about making it race blind. And I, I do think that, like how America responds and the, the public sentiment to me seems to, to shift and and be different depending on what the skin color of how or how the people look, who are, who are impacted.
00:08:38:11 - 00:09:00:07
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. Thank you for that. I, I agree, I'd like to pass it over to Emily. Emily, long, a supervising immigration attorney at Justice Center of Southeast Massachusetts. And hope you can also tell us a little bit about the work that you do with the Justice Center. In addition to answering the question or commenting on anything that Dylan or one of the people on the street had to say.
00:09:00:09 - 00:09:44:15
Emily Leung
Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I, I should preface by saying I am currently ill, so, apologies. And, I may occasionally need to mute myself to not subject everyone to my coffee, but, the Justice Center of Southeast Massachusetts, we are a subsidiary of South Coastal Counties Legal Services. And collectively, between our four offices, we provide civil legal aid to low income and indigent clients throughout all of southeastern Massachusetts, which includes Plymouth, Bristol, Barnstable, Dukes, Nantucket Islands, and our traditional areas of service are housing, family law, consumer education, benefits, and immigration is the unit that I had.
00:09:44:17 - 00:10:11:26
Emily Leung
Our unit is based out of Brockton. But we do cover the entire region, including the islands, including having myself gone to Martha's Vineyard in the, first days of the recent arrivals of the Venezuelans. And in terms of the services that we provide, we provide a wide range of immigration representation and consultation. We have a more heavy focus on what we traditionally call humanitarian based immigration.
00:10:12:04 - 00:10:38:17
Emily Leung
So those are for individuals who maybe seeking asylum, perhaps have been survivors of trafficking or domestic violence or survivors of crime. We work with a lot of unaccompanied youths. But we do also do some family based immigration naturalization. We do we do a pretty wide range of cases. And we do our best to provide services throughout the region, although it is quite a large region and there is a lot of need, in our area.
00:10:38:19 - 00:11:10:09
Emily Leung
So that's just a little bit about our organization. And in terms, of the question, I, I agree with everything that Rep Fernandez said. I think from a policy perspective and from sort of the way that the law is structured, it, the beginnings of our immigration law and policy do have racist underpinnings. Some of the earliest laws that were passed in the realm of immigration are, for example, the Chinese Exclusion Act, which is what it sounds like an act to exclude the Chinese.
00:11:10:11 - 00:11:49:02
Emily Leung
And so from there, as policies have shifted, they have also had, country based caps. And the idea behind that is, well, we don't want so many people coming from any individual country in order to kind of have, or be overrun as a country with certain individuals from some populations. But obviously, when you institute country based caps, if you have the same cap in place for Liechtenstein as you do for Brazil or China, the the impact of that is that the individuals that you have coming to this country, are, are not going to reflect sort of the broader makeup of the world.
00:11:49:04 - 00:12:15:19
Emily Leung
I'm not saying, you know, it's not for me to say whether or not that is the goal of our country as an immigrant for immigration policy, but I do think many of our policies were actually specifically developed in a way that have racist underpinnings, whether those were purposeful, which the Chinese exclusion Act was, or in theory, where race neutral like country based caps, the effect of them is is racially skewed.
00:12:15:22 - 00:12:42:25
Emily Leung
And when it comes to asylum policy, I have seen the effect of sort of public sentiment, but also within the actual adjudication of asylum cases, you know, asylum officers and judges, they are just people who are also part of our country and who are subject to this same sort of overall sentiment. And, coverage of how other people in other countries are experiencing the harms that they are.
00:12:43:01 - 00:13:13:25
Emily Leung
And so if the overall sentiment, that people are experiencing is that what Ukrainians are experiencing is very harmful and we should want to protect them, then it would be disingenuous to think that the South officer wouldn't also be affected by that general sentiment. That's happening outside. In addition to that, there have been specific examples within the asylum system where we know that the adjudication of cases has not been race neutral.
00:13:14:00 - 00:13:45:15
Emily Leung
So in the 1990s, there was a lawsuit called the ABC settlement, in which, a group of churches and nonprofits sued immigration, saying that the approval rates of asylum cases for Central American countries were so incredibly low as compared to the approval rates for individuals who were fleeing, for example, USSR or, communist countries, that there had to be a race based element in how those cases were being decided.
00:13:45:17 - 00:14:17:14
Emily Leung
And in the settlement, they agreed to reevaluate those set of cases because the approval rate, I believe, was around 3% for all of the cases that came out of those countries at that time. So there is this history that's documented of the asylum system, not being applied in a race neutral way. I unfortunately, I'm not sure how we move away from that, but I certainly agree that that it is there and it is evident not just in the public sentiment, but also within the actual policies and how those policies have played out.
00:14:17:16 - 00:14:44:22
Onjalé Scott Price
That's really good history and information. Thank you. Emily, I know that both, Emily and Dylan were involved with the Venezuelans who came to Martha's Vineyard or were sent to Martha's Vineyard, but I'm wondering how that compared your your experience with how, you know, maybe they were treated or how, some of the work that you had to do to work with those communities to get them resettled or get them wherever they needed to be.
00:14:44:25 - 00:15:14:27
Onjalé Scott Price
How did that compare to when some, perhaps, Ukrainian refugees came in? Because we've been talking about those two groups of people. And they're obviously very fleeing for similar reasons, but also very different reasons. And I know that the the way the Venezuelans came to Martha's Vineyard was not the same way that most of the Venezuelans have. I mean, excuse me, most of the Ukrainians have come here, but I'm just curious about if you saw any, distinct dynamics between different dynamics between those two groups and, and the resources that you were able to provide for them and that kind of thing.
00:15:14:29 - 00:15:21:08
Onjalé Scott Price
Or if you think that they were pretty similar.
00:15:21:11 - 00:15:52:13
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
I suppose I'll take that. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's so many different factors and this and how they came here. One is through like a government program. The other one was through like a secretive plot, like, use human beings as political props. So, and then there were several media firestorms around the two, one a little more pronounced than the other.
00:15:52:16 - 00:16:24:21
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
But like the way I, you know. So there's a lot to talk about on that. But, you know, I guess the, the Venezuelan folks who came here who landed in Martha's Vineyard were met with an incredible amount of care and resource says, even more so, actually, than in my understanding then, the Ukrainians that have landed here, and, you know, I think that's in part because of how high profile it was.
00:16:24:23 - 00:17:09:12
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
So, or maybe exclusively, but, you know, so they were met with more resources and support, like, so, you know, I think from, state kind of settlement perspective, I think it was it, you know, we have like a refugee office here that, that works to, to settle all kind of refugees and, in a more systematic way, the state, administration and the local community, was probably even more involved with the, the Venezuelan migrants speak just because of how they came here and how high profile it was.
00:17:09:12 - 00:17:43:25
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
So, yeah, we immediately jumped into action to take care of these individuals on island and stood up beds and a place for them to stay in housing and food. And and then we put them in a longer term facility on Cape Cod, where they had unfettered access to immigration. Attorneys like Emily and others, and and in that longer term, short term facility, they also had caseworkers working on long term housing plans and the like.
00:17:43:28 - 00:18:03:25
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And now everyone's laughed and everyone is settled in a more and even more a longer term solution. There's actually several people who are back on our Martha's Vineyard, and a lot of people actually on, on Cape Cod. And I've talked to folks at the housing Assistance Corporation who's working a lot with the Cape Cod folks.
00:18:03:25 - 00:18:41:21
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And, they've heard the folks who've settled here locally, and they're actually making sure that everyone stays in touch and doing English classes, as a group, actually, for for all the migrants here so they can better, assimilate, and be a part of, of the local community. So, you know, one difference is we raised $300,000, and put that in open bank accounts for all of the Venezuelan migrants and then put direct cash deposits, into, into their, their accounts.
00:18:41:24 - 00:19:09:18
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
But I think it's a similar community response. I mean, our area is very welcoming to, to immigrants and, and we we have been, for a while now. And so, you know, you saw when during the Ukrainian, refugee, during that period, you saw the community coming together wanting to help, and you saw an incredible outpouring, support for the Venezuelan migrants as well.
00:19:09:18 - 00:19:44:02
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
I think we have a lot to be proud of, in our, in our local communities for how, how we responded. And, you know, I like treating people like people I think is about as basic. I think there is. But apparently that's controversial in some areas in our country, the difference is not so much how our community responded, but how other communities and less welcoming, places responded.
00:19:44:02 - 00:20:14:19
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
So I don't think governor DeSantis or whatever, whatever, applied to Ukrainian refugees and had a secretive plot to abuse them and lie to them and use them as political props and send them to Martha's Vineyard and and then get on to Tucker Carlson and brag about being tough on UN refugees or something like that. You know, that wouldn't happen, to Ukrainian refugees.
00:20:14:19 - 00:20:41:00
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And it's simply because, Ukrainians look a little more like Ron DeSantis than Venezuelans do, you know? I mean, that's really kind of what it boils down to. And we have an incredibly dark, you know, you look at all the dark moments in American history, of dark moments in world history that come down to, treating other people not like people and, and dehumanizing people.
00:20:41:02 - 00:21:13:19
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And that's what governors like Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott and these red state, politicians, continue to do. And they get away with this and they get applauded for this in some places in our country, because of how much work has been done by the Trump administration, by the Republican Party generally to, dehumanize people and particularly people of color, and particularly immigrants from, South America.
00:21:13:19 - 00:21:49:00
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And Central America. But you saw this with with issues like the Muslim ban as well, basically nonwhite people, that this is a political party that's been, using as one of their core issues. Do you, do you do you use it for dehumanizing people? And it's, and look like today or a couple weeks ago, it was Venezuelan immigrants, a few like a year ago or two a few years ago, it was, it was people from Muslim majority Muslim countries.
00:21:49:02 - 00:22:23:08
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And you got to ask yourself, like, who's next? You know, like what religion is next? What what ethnicity is next? Because if you're if people in this country are okay, completely, completely, treating one, specific race of people as political props and abusing them intentionally, then we open up a door for doing that with all sorts of people from every sort of walk of life.
00:22:23:08 - 00:22:59:08
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And that's something that I think is, I mean, it's depraved, but it's also something that the that that calls on us, people who don't think that way to take a stand against it and speak out against it, because there needs to be, we need to put a stop to this before it becomes more nefarious and stretches to more people and more vulnerable people of different ethnic and, and racial and religious backgrounds are harmed.
00:22:59:11 - 00:23:14:20
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. You make a good point. We we definitely can't allow this to be normalized. Like this was not normal, was not not how people should be treated. And we need to make sure we don't normally. Is that for sure? Rev, I'm sorry I haven't passed it to you sooner, but I know, I know, you're ready to say something.
00:23:14:25 - 00:23:17:08
Onjalé Scott Price
Let's go ahead.
00:23:17:10 - 00:23:45:24
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, first I just want to thank both Representative Fernandez and, Emily for for being with us. And I'm sorry you're not feeling well, Emily. And hopefully you will recover quickly and completely. I just I guess I'll pick up with, What? With what? Representative Fernandez was just sharing about, you know, it shouldn't be controversial to treat human beings with decency.
00:23:45:26 - 00:24:28:07
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, we shouldn't be in a situation where we are making, choices, discriminating, according to, what people look like or what their religion is or where they're from. That just goes against everything. It's just antithetical to everything that I've been taught as a, as a Christian, as a religious person. You know, when Yahweh God, you know, is saying to the chosen people of Israel, but, there to, to treat the stranger, they're supposed to welcome the stranger, because they should remember that they were once aliens in their own country.
00:24:28:07 - 00:25:08:21
Rev. Will Mebane
They were also aliens in the country of themselves. You know, God doesn't say, you know, welcome, welcome the strangers. Except, you know, there are no exceptions to that. And the same is true for, what Jesus said and what Jesus taught. You know, Jesus is adamant about the need to welcome the stranger. It's among the core aspects of what I consider, his manifesto, down to, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, care for those who are sick and in prison, clothe the naked and welcome the stranger.
00:25:08:23 - 00:25:40:14
Rev. Will Mebane
And again Jesus and say, welcome the stranger. Except these people from Honduras or Venezuela or Nicaragua or, you know, there are no exceptions. And so we we make the exception and get those same people or many of the people who claim to be Christians or claim to be people of faith, are involved in making these discriminatory, discriminatory decisions and treating people, differently based upon where they're from and, and, their ethnicity or their race or the color of their skin.
00:25:40:17 - 00:26:17:00
Rev. Will Mebane
And Emily, y you know, you said you were you were hesitant to to suggest that, the the the policy, the racist, immigration policies of this country were intentionally racist. I am not hesitant in saying that they are racist and they have been racist. We need only go back to, the the origins of this country and, the, the treatment of native peoples in this country, and to get an understanding of the racism that was imported here into this country.
00:26:17:02 - 00:26:37:19
Rev. Will Mebane
But that takes us to, I love your love your your hat, and that you're wearing today, too. Yes. Thank appreciate that very much. Very much so, any way I could give you a sermon? And people here at Saint Barnabas is probably tired of me, preaching about it. And so I. But I'm going to keep preaching about it.
00:26:37:21 - 00:27:01:19
Rev. Will Mebane
But I won't do another sermon now, so let me ask. Asking, Emily and Dylan if I can refer to it, his, his honorable one. And that way it's hard. I want to talk about language a little bit. All right, so we have you. We hear the term, refugee. We hear the term migrant, we hear the term.
00:27:01:19 - 00:27:45:11
Rev. Will Mebane
Some people will call folks illegal or illegal aliens. Some people will refer to folks as, as asylum. And so I just want to hear you talk a little bit about language and what the racism that is, in that language and how that language can be coded in itself. And when we talk about, you know, Afghanis there was a, there was I remember when Afghanis were coming here to Falmouth and other places in the country, and people were saying, well, don't refer to them as refugees, you know, don't don't refer to them, refer to them as, as asylums.
00:27:45:13 - 00:28:04:16
Rev. Will Mebane
And then but when people are coming from Venezuela, you know, people want to refer to them as migrants. And so, in a way, I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to get you to discuss. Emily, start with you. Is there do you hear? There's that coded language that that's part of the conversation.
00:28:04:18 - 00:28:28:20
Emily Leung
Yeah. Well, first I, I want to clarify that I do think the policies were racist. What I was hesitant to say is, is what our policy should be, not. But for sure, the, underpinnings of immigration policy and law are do have a racist underpinning. But in terms of language, yeah. Of course, I, I think that there is very much messaging.
00:28:28:20 - 00:29:13:18
Emily Leung
Right. Words have meaning. And the words that people choose to use to describe different groups, are, have a basis and relationship to sort of how they feel about any particular group. And I think that my interpretation of, of, of the general public perception is that refugees are the most quote unquote, deserving group. And so if we use the term refugee, it's because we're trying to convey the fact that we think that this is a group that deserves our help and protection, whereas if we use words like illegal, alien or illegals or, other terms that we don't use in my office when speaking about anyone, we are trying to convey the message that these
00:29:13:18 - 00:29:53:05
Emily Leung
folks are not worthy of our assistance and protection, because that's exactly what that identifies to people. Right? And I have found that there is a correlation generally between the words that people choose to use and the and the way that the sentiment that they feel about certain groups of folks, never mind the fact that everyone in this country who is not First Nation, who is not indigenous, did come from somewhere else, did migrate here from elsewhere, did come here in some fashion in some part of their life, whether it's many generations ago or their generation or one generation ago.
00:29:53:07 - 00:30:27:29
Emily Leung
But that way of describing a person, it puts that first in the mind of the person they are communicating with, that this is the most important thing. And that's also why language around, how we talk about other marginalized groups has also shifted over time. Right? Like, the way that I've heard other people talk about victims versus survivors, how you talk about, persons with disabilities, not disabled persons, because it puts their personhood in front of, their special abilities or capabilities.
00:30:28:01 - 00:30:45:28
Emily Leung
And so I think it's exactly the same with the way that we talk about individuals. Like I said, most of us are immigrants and some part of our life in some part of our lineage, not every person, but but the vast majority, by far the vast majority of Americans. But we don't put that first in the way that we describe ourselves.
00:30:46:01 - 00:31:08:07
Emily Leung
And so the the language that we choose to describe individuals, I think, is very much connected to what we're conveying about them and what we think is the most important thing to know about them. It's most important to me for you to know that this person is not us. They're not one of us. They are other. And I'm communicating that with the words that I choose.
00:31:08:09 - 00:31:38:16
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Yeah. I mean, you know, there's also different legal definitions. And so that's, that's important to remember to like, sile a refugee. These are like legal definitions that our immigration attorney on the court can illuminate better than I can. So like how you character like, you know, the, the umbrella under which different groups come in, is based on a designated legal status.
00:31:38:16 - 00:32:15:14
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
That's and that's enshrined in law. So that's definitely like a part of it, not just, not just a kind of messaging piece, using the term and then. Yeah, I mean, Emily's right. Like how, and all eyes and all facets of of life, how we, how we characterize things changes over time on what is, acceptable and, and what is not and how language is used to disparage certain groups versus uplift, changes over time, as well.
00:32:15:14 - 00:32:45:06
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
But any, kind of, you know, a lot of this stuff. And Emily alluded to this comes down to how can you most humanize people versus most dehumanize people. And so, like if you're calling people an illegal alien, like that is about as deep, you know, that's about as humanizing as possible or calling someone like an alien. Of course, that had a different legal definition way back.
00:32:45:08 - 00:33:09:12
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
You know, talking to my favorite about my favorite founding father, you know, John Adams and is like, Alien and Sedition Acts, you know. Right. Like this was this goes back a long way in terms of legal definition. So, but that's, you know, but people use language depending on which side of the issue they are on, around humanizing people or not.
00:33:09:15 - 00:33:37:22
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And so what I did, if, you know, look, I think there's like this part of this Venezuelan migrant issue was, of course, like getting people settled as comfortable as possible and as humanely as possible, and with the dignity and respect that everyone deserves. But I also thought it required a political response. And so I did close to like 100 TV interviews and, you know, I don't even know how many other interviews I actually have.
00:33:37:22 - 00:34:04:22
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
One, again, on a follow up and just. Yeah, 20 minutes from now. Well, ten minutes from now. Where I made sure on every single program that I talked about these people as people, and talked about how they were, families, how their children as young as four, and I shared some of their personal stories about their journey here.
00:34:04:24 - 00:34:39:08
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
You know, some of them walked over 60 to 70 days through several countries, followed by gang violence, and were robbed along the way, beaten along the way. Just to get here in the first place, only to be used and lied to, and used as a, as political political props. So, you know, for me, and I think it's really important for everyone, to, really just shed the, you know, shed light on the human story of the people who come here.
00:34:39:10 - 00:34:55:27
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And I think that hopefully, elicits some basic human compassion, even from those who might disagree with you on, on some of the issues around immigration.
00:34:55:29 - 00:35:33:24
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I'm so grateful and for how the people of Martha's Vineyard responded when our neighbors from, south of our border, arrived here, even though it was surreptitious and, secretive and, a political scheme and all those things, the outpouring that, and the respect for their humanity is something that really touched me. And, and I know that exists in other parts of our country as well.
00:35:33:26 - 00:36:21:00
Rev. Will Mebane
And yet there are so many folks in our country, within our borders who, don't want to recognize the humanity of these individuals that, you know, who among us, who among us would not do the very same thing if our lives were threatened? The lives of our husbands are wives. Our partners were were threatened if, we were subject subject to rape and torture and, other forms of physical violence, starving because of, the climate crisis, and not able to feed our families.
00:36:21:02 - 00:37:05:26
Rev. Will Mebane
Who among us would not search out some other place, where we could be safe, where we could have food, where we could have a life that is that, is life giving and and and nurtures ourselves and those we care about. So I don't. And at all I do understand the to me, it is the racism that is in this country that causes so many people's hearts to turn against, particularly people who are black and brown, who are seeking the very things that we have in this country and that we take for granted.
00:37:05:28 - 00:37:25:22
Rev. Will Mebane
And I wonder, you know, people say, oh, will you just, liberal and you just want to have open borders and, you know, just like any and everybody come to this country that wants to come. Well, you know what? I will admit that is exactly what I want. And I want it because this country can accommodate it.
00:37:25:25 - 00:37:55:16
Rev. Will Mebane
We have enough land in this country. We have enough ingenuity in this country. We have enough resources of all sorts in this country to accommodate any and everybody who wants to come into this country to, to make a living, many of whom want to do the jobs that other folks in this country don't want to do, and we want to build our economy on their backs the same way we built the economy of this country on the backs of the enslaved people.
00:37:55:18 - 00:38:10:22
Rev. Will Mebane
300 years ago. So again, I'm getting off into a rant and, in a sermon, but, and just ask either one of you, and including you and you, if you want to say amen to any of that or challenge any of what I've said.
00:38:10:24 - 00:38:29:27
Onjalé Scott Price
I'm not sure if it'll make it in the final recording, but I was definitely snapping along with that sermon. Rev and I, I so much appreciate your passion that you always bring to these conversations and your thoughts and and you know, we do we we can accommodate all of these people who want to come here. There's also the flip side of that.
00:38:30:00 - 00:38:52:20
Onjalé Scott Price
But what about the people who are here that we're not taking care of and that that and striking that balance? And I feel like that could be a whole, a whole nother conversation about how do we take care of the people here that we're ignoring? Because I do think we've talked about a little bit on the show about how being a person of color from the US is a different experience than people of color who come from other places.
00:38:52:23 - 00:39:20:02
Onjalé Scott Price
So yes, they're still discriminated against in the same way someone doesn't, you know, stop you on the street and ask, are you American or are you African? Before I say something racist to you, you know that that doesn't happen. But at the same time, people's experiences are generally different because often people from other countries are seen as exotic and interesting, and they bring something different as opposed to the black people who are here like, oh, well, you know, you're part of this lineage that we don't generally care about.
00:39:20:07 - 00:39:44:18
Onjalé Scott Price
So I do feel like there is a balance that can be had. But I don't disagree that if we wanted to, we have the wealth, we have the space, we have everything you mentioned, but we also have a capitalistic society that doesn't necessarily allow for us to do all the things that we say we want to do. I don't I think, I think I kind of just dug us a little bit further into this rabbit hole, and I.
00:39:44:20 - 00:39:46:21
Onjalé Scott Price
I'm not sure that's where we want to go.
00:39:46:24 - 00:40:01:20
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, we'll do it if we can figure out a way to make money off of it. You know, there'll be some ingenuity that comes along with with, finding a way to do it. I mean, I think about all the shopping centers, the empty shopping centers, the empty hotels, the empty buildings in this country that could house people.
00:40:01:20 - 00:40:11:21
Rev. Will Mebane
And anyway, I know Dylan, you're going to have to leave us, shortly. Let me give you a chance to offer what? Whatever response of any you want to make to what's on the floor.
00:40:11:24 - 00:40:42:14
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Yeah. I mean, look, I Massachusetts would be losing population, if it wasn't for immigration. And, like, we need immigration to have it have a stable population here. I mean, like, I, you know, we also have a profound housing crisis, like we and a lot of that is due to liberal NIMBYism. Like that's really the, the predominant factor on us not being able to build then.
00:40:42:16 - 00:41:13:18
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Yeah. Enough housing for the people are just here to begin with, as is a lot of liberal NIMBYism. And so that makes us all less welcoming community. Even though it's, very liberal community. So, I mean, that's that's a huge issue, but, you know, if you like, my district is, we have had the largest population growth of any district, and the entire state and not not not necessarily from Palmetto that Falmouth grew over the islands.
00:41:13:20 - 00:41:46:27
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Nantucket grew at the the largest percentage of all 351 cities and towns in the Commonwealth since the last census. And the vineyard, was right behind them. And that's almost entirely from immigration, almost entirely from, Central and South American countries. So on, on, on Nantucket, the public schools, they're now a majority minority, majority nonwhite and a lot of El Salvadorians, but also other Central and South American countries.
00:41:46:27 - 00:42:28:07
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And then on on the vineyard, over a third of the public schools, there are majority, no are over a third are nonwhite students. And those are almost entirely actually on, on the vineyard from, from Brazil, Brazilian background. So, you know, this district that I represent, from a state perspective in terms of, bringing people and since the last census from diverse backgrounds, has as done more than any other region and, and, and the Commonwealth and I think, you know, we're going to continue to do that.
00:42:28:07 - 00:42:56:16
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
And, you know, there's this big Republican narrative out there that we are somehow not welcoming communities just because, you know, the Clintons and Obama used to vacation here during their presidency. But like the the facts, unfortunately, don't really matter in a lot of places in this country. And so the facts and, and our and our role in the, in our, in our public schools here speak for themselves.
00:42:56:18 - 00:43:07:06
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Thank you. Dylan. I do want to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for making the time to join us. So I'm I'm going to pass it off, to Emily if she has any comments, but I know Dylan, you'll need to pop out.
00:43:07:06 - 00:43:15:11
Rep. Dylan Fernandes
Yeah. My pleasure. And, love, just love seeing you guys. And and let me know in the next conversation as we share. Well, all right. Take care.
00:43:15:13 - 00:43:27:05
Onjalé Scott Price
Thanks. So I want to pass it to you. And if you have any, any follow up comments on that. Yeah, I mean, that that is a big I know that was a lot.
00:43:27:08 - 00:43:37:08
Emily Leung
No, but I, I was I was thinking about what you were saying, pastor Reverend, I'm very, I'm very bad with church monikers.
00:43:37:11 - 00:43:38:29
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, try will.
00:43:39:01 - 00:43:44:25
Emily Leung
Okay. Well, yeah, I just doesn't feel sufficiently respectful, like, oh.
00:43:44:27 - 00:43:47:13
Rev. Will Mebane
That's my name again. Be more respectful than that.
00:43:47:15 - 00:44:14:09
Emily Leung
Fair enough, fair enough. And I, I was thinking exactly, about this issue of the narrative and, and in fairness, reality in the US of this scarcity, you know, resource scarcity that we've created because it doesn't work under a capitalistic society. The housing crisis exists not because we couldn't build more housing, but because of many of the issues that they're up for and is was talking about.
00:44:14:09 - 00:44:48:21
Emily Leung
And because, you know, it's how do we make it profitable for people to build low income housing, build different types of housing that are more affordable in different areas. But, I think that that resource scarcity goes hand in hand with sort of the racism and with immigration policy, because we blame this resource scarcity very frequently on immigrants, even though immigrants don't actually receive or qualify for state and federal benefits, even though they can't, access federal housing.
00:44:48:25 - 00:45:09:09
Emily Leung
And I know there's not sufficient federal subsidized housing. And so I think those who work very much in concert, the fact that we've, you know, in some ways created this scarcity. And I think to to your point, Andre, it it is it is always going to raise this question of like, well, if we're not taking care of people at home, how can we take care of other people?
00:45:09:11 - 00:45:36:05
Emily Leung
And my response is like, yeah, we should same we should we should do that. But we as a country, we are very wealthy. And the biggest issue is the distribution of that wealth is very, very uneven. And the provision of basic resources. And what we have a nation have decided is the floor of where is acceptable for our citizens to live at is just far too low.
00:45:36:07 - 00:46:03:00
Emily Leung
If we look at all of the rest of the industrialized nations that are in a similar sort of, state of democracy that we are in and have the strength of economy that we have, they have accepted a much higher floor for their citizens. But we have public education, higher education, housing, health care, those are all things that are provided in the majority of countries that are in our echelon in terms of like economy and democracy.
00:46:03:00 - 00:46:26:07
Emily Leung
And we don't offer those things. And we chose to not we chose to not offer them, but we can choose differently. I mean, just thinking about this debt forgiveness for student debt that is now being held up through lawsuits by several states. What is the argument for that? That we want people to be in debt so they cannot move forward in their life, so they cannot more contribute more to our economy?
00:46:26:07 - 00:46:55:10
Emily Leung
This is now also sorry, going way off on a tangent as well. Oh, go. Keep going. But all these things are very much intertwined in my mind. And you know, it's going to take a, very big shift for us as a nation to decide that it is important that we think that in this country, at a minimum, people should have a bed to sleep in, they should have basic health care, they should have access to education.
00:46:55:16 - 00:47:39:05
Emily Leung
And once we do that, then no one can have any complaints about we don't have the ability to have other people come to this country. Not to mention that statistically, immigrants contribute substantially to the economy and take away very little because many of them can't actually access many of those benefits. So, you know, I, I think that we are preventing ourselves from making better policy because we are wrapped up in these narratives in which people who are most inclined to keep everybody down to not push more for their own rights, are then pushing off their complaints onto other groups, whether or not that's warranted.
00:47:39:11 - 00:47:59:05
Emily Leung
And that works really well for a very small percentage of people in this country. And what it doesn't do is help lift all boats, so to speak. And I think the flaw that we have in this country, based on the wealth that we have, it is pitiful, you know, that is this is, you know, all the things that I talked about, add other things.
00:47:59:07 - 00:48:19:06
Emily Leung
We could offer them we, we, we print money like, and I know that we have inflation and I know that, you know, we're possibly heading into a recession in a recession, economists can't decide. And the people are really feeling that right now. And that's not to discount that. And there are many in this country who are not receiving the services that they should be receiving.
00:48:19:09 - 00:48:46:01
Emily Leung
I don't think, though, that those are reasons for us to say we can't have more people in the US. There are reasons why we need to try harder to do better for the folks that are already here, but also do better for those who are trying to come here because they are coming in circumstances that as well said, are the same circumstances that any person, if you were really to press them truthfully and ask them, is this what they would do to save themselves and their family?
00:48:46:03 - 00:48:58:15
Emily Leung
I think you'd be very, very hard to find someone who said, no, I, I wouldn't do this to save my children. Really? You wouldn't do that? Of course you would. So, yeah, there's
00:48:58:15 - 00:49:04:04
Onjalé Scott Price
a there's a small group of people I think we call those sociopaths. I think those those are the those are the ones that I think we're referring to there.
00:49:04:04 - 00:49:07:25
Emily Leung
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:07:28 - 00:49:11:16
Emily Leung
So I don't know if that answers the question. I just
00:49:11:18 - 00:49:17:23
Onjalé Scott Price
know that was those are fantastic points. Yeah, I was I was snapping along to the whole thing.
00:49:17:25 - 00:49:51:26
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. It's I know we need to go to the next question, but it's, I'll just say the, the issue is individualism. The culprit, is individualism. You know, people, will always, from the beginning of time, will always look to, have more than someone else has and will always look to, put others down in order to lift themselves up.
00:49:51:28 - 00:50:07:19
Rev. Will Mebane
And that is the sad state of the human condition. And another say it has been from the, from the beginning of time. So what do you think, Andrew? Go to our next question.
00:50:07:21 - 00:50:26:22
Onjalé Scott Price
I feel like I could keep going, but, yes, we should be respectful and move on to our next question. So we're going to hear from people on the street answering the question, what is required to address this? I'm sorry? What is required to ensure decisions on, asylums are race neutral. So let's hear what the people on the street have to say.
00:50:26:22 - 00:50:35:15
Onjalé Scott Price
And then we'll come back and discuss that question.
00:50:35:18 - 00:51:03:24
David Forsberg
Well, this is almost going to sound like an old sore because it's it's said so much and we've made such little progress is that we need comprehensive immigration reform. I did refugee resettlement in the 80s and then again in the early 2000. And it's amazing to me that a subject which Ted Kennedy and George Bush can agree on actually was not able to be enacted into law.
00:51:03:26 - 00:51:38:18
David Forsberg
The system is broken. It's become, unfortunately, very partizan. And it never was. When I was at Lutheran Social Services, our biggest advocate was, Gordon Humphreys, one of the more conservative senators from the state of New Hampshire. And he was an angel on refugee issues. And there was great support for immigration reform and for a knowledge of the importance of what immigrants have brought to this country over the years from, east of here, from west of here, and definitely from south of here.
00:51:38:18 - 00:52:04:00
David Forsberg
So, yeah, I think immigration is a net win, for this country. The folks bring value, they do needed, services. And I do think that the kind of the thought that there's this huge taking of jobs that Americans would other otherwise occupied to me is, is a bit of a myth at this point.
00:52:04:03 - 00:52:40:05
Queen Banda
I think when we achieve culture, equity, that's the key to everything. And that comes with dialog, that comes with work, that comes with an individual to make, a decision within themselves, to make an oath that they are going to dedicate themselves towards achieving equity. So once that is achieved, I feel that, any process in this case, asylum seeking, that process will be much more, much more,
00:52:40:08 - 00:53:05:14
Queen Banda
Not only easier, but I think it's going to be more equal across the, across the arena versus others getting all the resources depending on how we view them versus you, how we view you and our history with you. So I think it all falls down to having or achieving culture, equity.
00:53:05:17 - 00:53:34:01
Onjalé Scott Price
So we've heard our people on the street asking the question, answering the question, excuse me, what is required to ensure decisions on asylum are race neutral? And I thought Queen's point was a really good one. Achieving cultural cultural equity is key, as I do feel like that's a long shot. We've got a we've got a long way to go and I don't I don't think we can wait for that to, you know, make these decisions on asylum, race neutral or just even more equitable.
00:53:34:04 - 00:53:42:04
Onjalé Scott Price
So I'd like to pass it over. I'll pass it to Europe. What? What do you think we need to. What do you think is required? What do we need to do?
00:53:42:06 - 00:53:46:20
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, well, we need to stop being racist. You know.
00:53:46:22 - 00:53:49:08
Onjalé Scott Price
Problem Solved just get there
00:53:49:10 - 00:54:29:19
Rev. Will Mebane
You know? And in simplest form, and, like so many things, it's, it has to do with a change of people's hearts. Right. And when, you know, Representative Fernandez was talking about the importance of treating people decently, right, of, recognizing the humanity of, of individuals and, and just before we went to hear the responses, from Queen and David, Emily was talking about, you know, we were talking about individualism and, and, you know, what is it that allows people to causes people to want to keep their thumb on?
00:54:29:21 - 00:54:57:19
Rev. Will Mebane
These are my words, not your words, Emily, but keep their thumb on on the other people to keep all the people down and to discriminate against other people and, you know, it's because we don't see the humanity, the full humanity, and, in one another. And so that that's not going to happen, tomorrow either, along with, you know, cultural equity, that's, that's not going to happen, but that's got to be the goal.
00:54:57:19 - 00:55:25:21
Rev. Will Mebane
All right. We we have to work on that. Allow me, if you will, to use, some religion, religious language. You know, we have to be about building God's kingdom, you know, and a place where, everyone is respected and, and everyone's gifts, talents and skills are honored. And, people are loved for who they are, because.
00:55:25:24 - 00:55:58:15
Rev. Will Mebane
Do you live in in Honduras or Nicaragua? El Salvador, Cuba, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Venezuela, Palestine. You know, these are all we were all created by the same creator. We have the same creator. And although we look differently and we sound differently, speaking different languages and what have you and and and all, you know, it is blood, the same blood that runs through our bodies.
00:55:58:15 - 00:56:24:18
Rev. Will Mebane
And, we just have a hard time acknowledging that and recognizing that and in one another. So if we could do that, we could solve a lot of problems. We including, eliminating the racism that's part of our immigration system. But I'll ask, Emily, you know, what your thoughts are on that? What do we need to do?
00:56:24:20 - 00:56:47:03
Emily Leung
I, I very much liked your answer, and, we just need to stop being racist. And then there will be racism in system. I think in some ways that that is the ultimate answer, right? Because anytime you have individual decision makers, then the bias, the individuals, the decision makers have will always be part of the system.
00:56:47:06 - 00:57:12:13
Emily Leung
What we can do is try and remove some of the systemic things that contribute to racist decision making. Excuse me. So one example of that that I can think of is within the asylum. This is a very nitty gritty example, but within the asylum system there is a very strong reliance on these country judicial reports that are created by the Department of State.
00:57:12:15 - 00:57:40:23
Emily Leung
The Department of State is a political entity. And so the way that those reports are written can be impacted or affected by our sort of foreign relationships with other countries. And if that forms the basis of is is strong evidence one way or another in a particular case, regardless of whether or not the person presents that information, then obviously that impacts the way the decisions are made under the Trump administration.
00:57:40:28 - 00:58:11:26
Emily Leung
Within the Department of State, there were actually high level officials that complained, and we're trying to whistle blow about the fact that the administration was heavily pressuring them on how to compile those reports, because those reports are generally relied upon by asylum officers in making decisions. So that's an example of something systemic within the system of asylum adjudication itself that could be changed, to help with sort of moving towards more race neutral decision making.
00:58:12:03 - 00:58:45:22
Emily Leung
But I do think at the end of the day, right, you always are going to have an individual decision maker. And so unless we can eliminate racism, there, there can continue to be that within the system. So that's an example of more like a more small policy change that could be made is to do having a different division do that, having someone who's not as prone to sort of political pressure or political whims, prepare reports like those, or to not have the Department of State be the entity that this, office relies on.
00:58:45:29 - 00:59:06:01
Emily Leung
It's not the only thing they rely on. And certainly we have cases where we're able to demonstrate that what those reports say, are not sort of our client's experience, but that's for folks who have the benefit of having an attorney who knows that system and is like working very much in concert against any sort of negative information that's out there.
00:59:06:04 - 00:59:10:10
Rev. Will Mebane
About you. Oh, what do you what do you think needs to be done?
00:59:10:12 - 00:59:31:16
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, I'm going to piggyback off Emily and say we need to remove the politics out of this. I know I say that as somebody who is somewhat of a local politician, but there are just some things that politics should not be in. And I think a lot like when we talk about the human aspect where that's not something that I think, like politicians and politics should have their hands in.
00:59:31:16 - 00:59:47:05
Onjalé Scott Price
I mean, I can go down a rabbit hole about other things like health care, you know, that's that's not what we should be doing. And so, yeah, I would say removing the politics aspect of it, I mean, you're never going to get anybody who's really neutral, right? Because we all come out of their own biases and own experiences.
00:59:47:07 - 01:00:10:03
Onjalé Scott Price
But the pressure of politics adds another layer to it. And I imagine that, you mentioned the Trump administration and the pressures that they put on people, you know, and maybe it's the opposite now, or maybe there isn't as much pressure, but I imagine maybe there's more pressure when it comes close to election time. And if there's a, certain law that's looking to be passed and whatnot.
01:00:10:03 - 01:00:23:18
Onjalé Scott Price
So I think we're moving the politics out of it, it's probably probably a good start as we in parallel, try to remove, you know, racism firm from everything else in our society, in our lives.
01:00:23:21 - 01:00:54:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, as if I could speak for, for Representative Hernandez, you know, treating people as human beings should not be a political is nothing. We should be political about that. Right? Shouldn't, you know, and I go back to again, you know, my area of religion and that, you know, there's there's nothing should not be political whether you and this is what and I get accused all the time of preaching politics from the pulpit.
01:00:54:17 - 01:01:15:19
Rev. Will Mebane
And I say to people, I've never preached a political sermon in my life. I have preached, I'm trying to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, as I understand it. And what Jesus says is all the issues. Emily, and you raised here for people who are sick. Well, if we're going to care for people who are sick, then we need to give them health care so they can go.
01:01:15:20 - 01:01:40:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Now, that sounds like a political statement. No, Jesus. It's care for people who say, Jesus says care for people who are in prison. Don't lock them up and throw the key away. Care about those people. That can sound political, but that's just what Jesus says. Jesus says, you know, feed the hungry. So if you're going to take away the money that mothers have to feed their children and cut those programs of crime is going to do those programs.
01:01:40:17 - 01:02:04:12
Rev. Will Mebane
If I preach against that, that sounds political, but that's what Jesus says. And we're supposed to do, you know, the same with welcoming the stranger. So, yeah, let's get politics out of it, okay? Let's get politics out of it. And let's just get down to treating people, you know, as human beings, as, creatures created by God and beloved of God and that we should just love.
01:02:04:14 - 01:02:08:03
Rev. Will Mebane
And of the end of my third sermon, join this conference.
01:02:08:05 - 01:02:10:16
Onjalé Scott Price
Thats fantastic Rev
01:02:10:19 - 01:02:15:18
Emily Leung
Jesus would have been a great politician, is what it sounds like. I just used to be that
01:02:15:18 - 01:02:30:21
Onjalé Scott Price
way. It does sound that way. Well, I think that is I think that's a good place for us to end today. We've had a really fantastic conversation. I wish we could continue. Emily, thank you so much for being with us today and lending your expertise and sharing your thoughts with us.
01:02:30:21 - 01:02:52:04
Onjalé Scott Price
And thanks again to Dylan Fernandez, representative Dylan Fernandez. Excuse me. Of course, to you, Reverend will always wonderful to see you. I love your face that Allen and Deb behind the scenes, as always. Thank you. And and thank you to our viewers. Thank you for watching us. Thank you for giving us your feedback and your encouragement for us to to continue doing this.
01:02:52:04 - 01:03:05:19
Onjalé Scott Price
And we hope we hope to have more of our viewers on our show in the future. So until next time, thank you all for joining us. And to add a little bit of politics to it, don't forget to vote. Thanks, everybody.
01:03:05:21 - 01:03:06:07
Emily Leung
Thank you.