Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:15)
Hello, welcome back to Yes and Otherwise. I'm really excited today to
To have Geillan Aly with us today to talk about math. And if you are like me, you probably immediately felt some tension in your body when you heard, we're talking about math. You might have had that ick factor. You might have had the eye roll of like why or
Geillan Aly (00:30)
Marc has played. Marc has played remove download.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:33)
Right. Please don't skip ahead. Stick around. I promise it's good because we're going to be talking about math trauma and the ways that so many of us have been made to believe we're bad at math or made to feel like math has no purpose and all of that. So I I promise you it's gonna be good. So stick around. Before we dig in though, I wanted to say, Geillan, let's do a little icebreaker and it is gonna relate, which is I would love to know what has your algorithm on social media been feeding you lately? What are the
The fun things that you seem to be getting a lot of lately.
Geillan Aly (01:05)
well, okay, so the funny thing is is I've been so swamped that I have not been on TikTok in a while and I'm feeling the itch. I miss it. So there's something to be said. Yeah, yeah, there's something to be said about the addictive nature of social media. But I've been on LinkedIn lately and there has been a lot of talk about there have been a lot of people who have been thinking about AI in the math world.
And our jobs and our jobs as mathematicians, the people who basically invented AI. And because AI has been finding a lot proving a lot of theorems that we did not know how to prove yet, a lot of rules, and there's been a lot of questions around that. So there's been existential questions about math, there's been questions about some of the AI.
saying it came out. I think there was an article about some theorem that was proven, but it turned out that a mathematician was using an LLM to check their work and then it spouted it. So there's all sorts of interesting stories about AI.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:07)
So you're
getting AI and math and ex existential questions about AI and math. I have also
Geillan Aly (02:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:13)
been, I I'm not gonna use this, but I am gonna relate in saying I've also been getting a lot of AI content in the last two weeks because I've been on a bit of a doom scrolling downward spiral
Geillan Aly (02:21)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:22)
that I'm pulling myself out of ever since the news,
Geillan Aly (02:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:25)
you know, the gentleman came out talking about how it's gonna kill us all in 10 years or whatever. So I have also been getting it, a lot of existential stuff. But
Geillan Aly (02:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:32)
I will say on the lighter side that what my
Geillan Aly (02:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:35)
algorithm has been
Giving me a lot of lately is is like warm and cozy autumn meals, which I think speaks to the time,
Geillan Aly (02:42)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:43)
but things that look really easy to make. However, I will say bringing back AI, sometimes
Geillan Aly (02:46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:47)
now in the world we live in now, I'm always like, is this a real thing that I could try and it will work? Or is it an AI recipe because they have so many AI things that you don't know? but I do have one for these caramel apples.
that I have saved and I can't I've been waiting for the weather to get cool. They look unbelievably delicious. It's like butter and caramel and apples and cinnamon and you bake it and it looks so good and really pretty simple. So I'm gonna be making that this fall.
Geillan Aly (03:12)
So you're
gonna to send that to me because I've been CSAing, which is I have a farm share and I go pick a box every week and I have
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:17)
Yeah. Got apples?
Geillan Aly (03:21)
yeah, and I there's there's a decent chunk of there's a decent number of apples in there. So it is. It is.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:24)
Yeah. It is that time of year, right? It's apple season. So well, maybe I'll
find the video. Listen, it's not a recipe, it's just video. That's the problem I've been having. A lot of these just show these like videos, and then you deduce Yeah. So
Geillan Aly (03:35)
And you have to kind of figure it out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:38)
and who knows if they're even real, if they've been tested, if they work. But I'm gonna try and I'll see.
Faith Clarke (03:43)
I get a combination of if you want to live in another country, where
Geillan Aly (03:48)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (03:49)
could you go? I'm right now, I did giving myself a gap here in Jamaica. So I'm seeing
Geillan Aly (03:53)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (03:54)
creators who have moved to Jamaica, to Barbados, to other places. I'm
Geillan Aly (03:59)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (04:00)
seeing queer art. And that's been pretty interesting, queer Black art. And so that's been that's been kind of cool.
And the recipe is with chocolate. Chickpea chocolate
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:10)
Cheap peak.
Faith Clarke (04:12)
they've been serving me up. I'm on whole 30 this month. Means a whole 30 is on like no grains, no sugar. So just like chickpeas and chocolate. I'm just like, how can I blend in some dates?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:26)
And the reason
Geillan Aly (04:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:26)
I was asking that faith to move into talking about math is because in in her book, which is called Compassionate Math, and you talk Haleen Jalen, I'm gonna get it wrong.
Geillan Aly (04:38)
It's okay, it's Geillan You're okay, you're okay, you're okay.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:40)
I know, but I'm
Faith Clarke (04:40)
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:41)
a wanna get I'm so bad with names. Okay.
Geillan Aly (04:44)
Do you know what? Names is like I heard this on a different podcast, and I can't cite it right now because I'm on the spot. But think about this. A name is a random label given to a random human. And there's no connection as to why you are a Becky and you are a Faith and I am a Geillan. And why and and I've known other Becky's, but my brain can't discern why are you and you Becky's and not you and you Becky. It's
Faith Clarke (05:11)
No no pattern at all.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:12)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (05:12)
Because of the randomness
of names, it makes it very hard to remember.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:14)
And it's
it is like a different language in a way too, because if you don't know any other Geillans then your brain is trying to take what it knows about those arrangement of letters and tra and yeah. But also
Geillan Aly (05:25)
Yep. Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:28)
I honor that it's someone's like it's it's deeply personal. And like I hate when I mess it up. And then my brain does the fun thing of like, you're gonna mess this up. So then it starts like believing it's gonna mess it up. And you know what?
Geillan Aly (05:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And
then
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:38)
I was
gonna take this out, but I wanna leave this in now because I do feel like it relates so much to what we're talking about with math. Because first
Geillan Aly (05:42)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:45)
in the book you talk about algorithms and how they are part of math. I mean, math is what determines algorithms. But honestly,
Geillan Aly (05:53)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:53)
now that I've done the name trip up, let's just go there. Because
Geillan Aly (05:56)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (05:57)
it also makes me think about as I was reading the book and the parts around like imposter syndrome and math anxiety, and I was relating so hard to those feelings where
Geillan Aly (06:06)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:07)
I s have given myself a story about how I am. I shouldn't even say I've given myself because I do think in many ways a lot of it was also given to me. Right.
Geillan Aly (06:15)
The stories given to us, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:18)
And so because of that, when I encounter something math-based, I will start to cause problems to the like my logic before I even get to it. Like I've already started to worry about it to the point that now I'm like,
Two plus two, I I don't know, even though I know what two plus two is, right? And the same
Geillan Aly (06:35)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:36)
way I think with your name, where I start to fear I'm gonna mispronounce it. So then I get so caught up in my head before I ever get to it that I'm never really giving it a fair shot. It's coming, I'm coming at the name with all of this information that's causing all the anxiety. Yeah,
Faith Clarke (06:50)
story and history and yeah
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:54)
and the anxiety it causes. So I'm I'm just gonna turn you
Geillan Aly (06:53)
Yes, yes, I love that. Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (06:57)
loose on that because I have a feeling that what we just talked about, the whole thing with the name.
Probably does bring up some of the stuff you talk about with life make math anxiety.
Geillan Aly (07:06)
It does because you're you're given these labels. my God, what if I get her name wrong? my god, what if I fail this test? You start catastrophizing everything. And you take your previous experiences of, one time I called him Hector, but it was really Miguel. But I was like in my in the back. And then Miguel got so mad at me. So if I do this same thing to Jolan, then what what is he gonna say?
What is she gonna say? And now she's gonna get master. You're carrying your previous experiences. You're carrying all this anxiety and tension. And now you're in the spot, on the spotlight, listening. You have your hundreds and thousands and millions of podcast listeners being like, Let's go, Becky. Is she gonna get it right? Is she gonna get it right? And all that anxiety is building up. The stakes feel really high. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (07:52)
The stakes feel really high. I'm thinking I'm thinking
about my first year physical chemistry class.
Geillan Aly (07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (08:00)
Also just as backdrop, I went to school in Jamaica and I don't remember having math anxiety.
I had numbers anxiety. I had memorization anxiety. So they'd walk around and what what are the times tables? And they would be, you know, three times seven. I'm like sevens or you know. So I I had that kind of anxiety, but it didn't generalize for me into math anxiety. but and I I have lots of speculations as to why. But in that first year chemistry class,
somebody put their hands up physical chemistry asking a question first class. And the professor said, Stop. I thought everybody in here had at least ninth grade math. And we were all like, Okie dokie, we're nobody's asking any questions. It's like, wait, maybe we don't understand any math because we don't know what you're saying, but also we can't say we don't know what you're saying, because then and and just that feeling of
I'll be
Geillan Aly (09:01)
That's it.
Faith Clarke (09:02)
shown up exactly the same as what happened, what I feared would happen with the times tables. Because the teacher's walking around, she calls on you, you don't know which one is going to be there, you're on the spot, and I need to be able to remember, you know, whatever, nine times four.
And I'm like, I can't rehearse. I can't, you know. And so
Geillan Aly (09:21)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:22)
it was that same on the spot. And then you showed up. And then in front of everybody, you're like, yeah, clearly you didn't have ninth grade math even. And these are people who ha are double majors in math and chemistry and you know, and things like that. So it was, yeah, the embarrassed, the fear of embarrassment that comes with math, I think, is
Geillan Aly (09:40)
Yeah, it's interesting. I do workshops with faculty on vulnerability in math class and how to foster it because so many things that are said and done in math class, and I'm not saying that I was perfect and that I didn't always do this when I teach, and you know, and I apologize to some of my former students who roll their eyes on on the moments. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (10:01)
Now you know better. Now you
Geillan Aly (10:03)
But
But there's something to be said about the energy that gets set up in math class. And I argue and I think that because of math being math, because it is the field that it is, that it actually means more and matters more in that class than it does in a bunch of other classes. And, you know, my teacher could walk in and say, Well, you know, I can't believe you don't know like Greco-Roman history. And I'm like,
Yeah, no, I don't. And and and
Faith Clarke (10:35)
She didn't
Geillan Aly (10:36)
that that same feeling of shame or disempowerment may not sit in the same way because so much of our life depends on knowing mathematics and you know passing exams or being able to do that budget or that report or being able to figure out your
right revenue and pricing model, et cetera. So so much has revolved around math, there's a lot of anxiety tied to it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:02)
Well, I think as kids, I mean it's the three Rs as they call them, even though they're but
Geillan Aly (11:05)
Yep. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:07)
they're reading, writing, arithmetic, right? Like those are the three biggies. It's what we're tested on from
Geillan Aly (11:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:11)
the youngest ages and and there's so much attached to it about our like even I cause now that I'm raising a young kid, he's ten, so and we're deep into the the state wide and you know, testing and that gets tied to funding for schools and all of that, that
Geillan Aly (11:25)
Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:28)
you
I see the tension that it creates in kids, really young kids, and they start to understand that they are being judged on their performance of these three key areas. So if I would think the
Geillan Aly (11:36)
Yes. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:39)
most probably linear kind of place where you might feel the same sort of shame is around not being able to read or read as well as some of your peers, right? When you get called out, because I remember
Geillan Aly (11:46)
Exactly. Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:48)
some of that tension of like when you had to read aloud in class.
Geillan Aly (11:51)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:52)
Of am
I gonna if you I remember that feeling of like if I don't know a word and I see it coming and it's like,
Geillan Aly (11:55)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:56)
no, and I'm gonna be made fun of, or what are they gonna say? And I feel like that's
Geillan Aly (11:59)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:59)
probably the s most close parallel.
Geillan Aly (12:02)
Exactly.
Reading, writing and arithmetic are the three spaces that I think where the most anxiety and the most trauma
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:08)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (12:09)
and the most issues pop up. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:11)
And
did you growing up when you were young? So going, you know, my kids 10, I think it
Geillan Aly (12:15)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:16)
for a lot of us, this stuff started at least at young, if not younger, the feelings that
Geillan Aly (12:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:20)
we might have around some of those bigger air subject areas, I've you ended up in math. So in my mind, it
Geillan Aly (12:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (12:26)
probably means you were just naturally pretty good at it. And then so you liked it because you were good at it, and that's how you end in a career. But I'm wondering if I'm right about that, or did you do you relate to on a personal level some of this trauma and anxiety stuff?
Geillan Aly (12:39)
Yeah, actually I do. And it's not from the early years. So your your your guess is correct. I did well in in school in general. I wasn't the star superstar math student with perfect grades, but I did well. I took calculus in high school.
This was back in a day when not everybody was taking calculus in high school. And so this was a big deal. And I remember being able to see the next lesson from the lesson we were taking. And I'd have I'd walk up to my teacher, Miss Pellegrino, and I'd Hey, Miss Pellegrino, is tomorrow we're gonna do blah blah blah and blah blah blah. And she was like astonished that I would be able to see the, to see the lessons. And she encouraged me to be a math major. I went to college and
rumor had it, that the math department, all the classes are awake 8 30 in the morning and no one in the department spoke English. So I decided not to be a math major. Because
So I ended up graduating with a degree in history. I worked in New York in the publishing industry for years. And I was using a lot of math, but not thinking that I was using a lot of math, it was just Excel, And it was just pulling from databases a lot of logic.
and I remembered things from school and it was helpful. but I was really frustrated. I was so bored. I was like, I'm spending all of my energy and all of my time in a very toxic, hard, intense work environment where they made a film out of regarding the devil and what they wear. And in that
in that company in that field it was really intense and i was like why am i killing myself to make a billionaire a little bit richer back when billionaires when when you can't just shake a stick and find a billionaire
and so i decided i wanted to go back to school and study and get a degree in research
and I decided I wanted to study both math and physics because I wanted to learn the secrets of the universe. And I mean, what better way? And
But you can't pay for class if you're paying a la carte for classes, you start reducing your scope. And so I said, well, math is the purer of the two subjects because physics is applied math. And so I went into math because I wanted to understand God as closely as I could. and understand the universe. So that's why I went into mathematics. now
Upper level mathematics is all about proving theorems, proving rules based on definitions and other theorems. And you'd get these definitions that are, I don't want to say arbitrary, but they seem arbitrary. But they're
Faith Clarke (15:17)
They do.
Geillan Aly (15:17)
not you, but they're just given to you, like, like from on high, we are going to define a function that says dot that dot dot and and
You know, there was never motivation, there's never context, there was never anything in the rule, and you just had to prove the theorem. And I didn't quite understand that's what the field of mathematics was. And I kept going and going. so I completed a second major and I got into graduate school. And by then I was having a really hard time in math. Now I wasn't unsuccessful. I just was having a hard time being successful.
So I jumped through all the hoops that were laid before me, but it was quote unquote not good enough. And I didn't know what I was doing wrong. I didn't know what I didn't understand. No one was helping me know what I didn't understand. But at the same time, my intelligence was being questioned. I was told, not intelligent enough to get a PhD. There were times where people asked me why I was taking certain classes.
And and again, all that time I thought this was all me. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me. and so I got my master's degree and I wanted to understand how is it that I was so motivated to do this, that I was so talented, supposedly, in mathematics. where was the disconnect? Am I that far outside of reality that I just upended my entire life and threw away a great career?
And now I'm barely, barely making it. and so I went to the college of education to try to understand what was wrong with me. And it turned and the more I studied about math education, and the more I learned about issues around equity and social justice, and the more I learned about how math is taught and what mathematics really is versus how we talk about mathematics,
some of that pain went away. you know, there were some people who didn't look like me and didn't have my biology that got a little bit more of a benefit of a doubt. There were people who and this is not just at my institution. There were like I've been taught I've been doing this work for five or six years now. And every time I talk to people, even
Current faculty, university, big name researchers, they had the same struggles and the same issues. and there are people who said, I know I got through and other people didn't, and they were better than me. so there were equity issues, there were attitude issues, and I've I started seeing the same thing in my students. So when I started teaching in teacher training.
I would hear things like, you know, students just lie, or you have to make the first exam really hard to get people to drop. We have to make this hard for them. I'm like, are you kidding me? This stuff is hard enough. And you know, some of these kids don't, they don't belong in college anyway. And I'm like, who are they?
we're just waiting them out to fail out. And I'm like, those were the words that were being said about me.
Faith Clarke (18:04)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (18:05)
And those were the things that were happening to me. so I ended up leaving an institution I was like just about ready to get tenure at. because I just kept thinking there but for the grace of God go I. And I just couldn't, I couldn't work in an environment where people thought of their students.
the way that they did or talked about their students, I couldn't do it. And so that's how I started compassionate math to basically help students work through eventually. Eventually it didn't take it took me a while to get to this like crystallized form. But I started compassionate math as a as an answer to the greater discourse in in mathematics and in math education.
Whew.
Faith Clarke (18:47)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (18:49)
Sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:50)
No, there's a
Faith Clarke (18:50)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:51)
lot of healing that is that so many of us, I think,
Geillan Aly (18:52)
There's a whole lot in there, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:55)
need and feel. And I mean, Faith knows that I'm in the middle of like trying. It feels like I'm a one woman show, but I know there are a few other people joining me. But in my particular my son's school district, we it's a predominantly white school district, with our area being the exception to that. And
I have and I'm trying to fight for more equity because our student outcomes are
demonstrably considerably not at all acceptably
Geillan Aly (19:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:20)
lower. And it, you know, it's obviously about some equitable distribution of resources. Also, though, as you're speaking, there's so much there around just the the education that needs to happen. My son's school is 35% Black and there are zero classroom teachers who are Black. That's that's a problem, That's a
Geillan Aly (19:38)
a huge
problem. That's a huge problem.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:39)
Yes. And when you're talking,
I've been, you know, I'm thinking about what I'm hearing about the high school level, which we're not at yet, but they the AP enrollment is significantly lower. And I
bel I really firmly believe so much of that is about what you're saying because what I've heard from many parents is that exact sort of attitude showing up from the moment you go in to like be introduced to the school of the like
You may not want to take too many AP classes. AP's really hard. Like this discouraging of that, the college enrollment rates are much lower. Whereas at and
Geillan Aly (20:10)
Reduction of the expectations, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:13)
the high school that is over on the other side of town, right? That's all like 90% white or 85% white, they have much higher AP enrollment, much higher graduation rates or college entrance rates. And they have Harvard coming to their school.
at the enrollment time versus that those kind of opportunities aren't even being presented as a as a possibility for our students. I know, right? And so this stuff
Geillan Aly (20:35)
making faces 'cause I'm just so angry listening to these
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:39)
and it's been a while since you know you've been in school, right? And then I've been in school, but this hasn't changed. And Nikole Hannah Jones
Geillan Aly (20:43)
No. No, it hasn't. It hasn't.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:46)
just wrote in the most amazing piece, I don't know if you read it, for the New York Times And and choosing to put her into a predominantly Black school
Geillan Aly (20:50)
yes, about her daughter.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:57)
And and the sort of there's been a lot of backlash, but let me say as I'm going through this, I have been talking to many Black parents in this area. This is an issue that is constantly in the calculus, speaking of math, of the decision making for Black families in America. Where do
Geillan Aly (21:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:11)
I put my kid? Do I put them in the school where they're gonna maybe have more access to opportunity? And also, though, on the other side of that, have this kind of presumption of, they're not as able, they're not as capable,
and so yeah, I know you're angry. I am too, and it's it hasn't changed. It hasn't changed.
Geillan Aly (21:26)
No,
it hasn't. It hasn't.
Faith Clarke (21:28)
I I'll
I just it I think to the point of the inequity side, the the supremacist underpinnings in the entire system. I I did a an interview with a friend in a series called Decolonizing Work, and she was just like the educational system is the primary colonizer, you know? And
Geillan Aly (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (21:47)
so
Just acknowledging when I think about my own self, and what I said, I I didn't have a math fear. I am acknowledging that in Jamaica at the time that I was here growing up, and even now, the majority of people who do well in school are women. And I grew up knowing that. and I was in a school that though it didn't feel elite to me, they the
You know, the the the kind of sense of girls can do anything was there. And I contrast that with what I immediately understood in my body, which though I didn't understand it in terms of language yet when I came to grad school in New York, was this, women aren't as good at math and engineering. I was in engineering school.
Women aren't as good, and Black people aren't as good. So you have certain people who are good at engineering, and then the rest aren't. And my body's understanding of that immediately brought tension and illness and struggle to get homework done. And even though, like you, I experienced in an undergrad, so I was good in math all the way through high school, and actually was better at
Abstract stuff. So the calculus
Geillan Aly (23:01)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (23:02)
in ninth grade. this is so much easier than trying to do, you know, commercial math and public health math and grocery math and business math. I was like, this is much easier. And I kept on with that. But then get into college, I was like, the the the limit as X approaches infinity. What? Say this again. The lip right? So I I my brain knew it was hard, but it didn't feel personal.
Until I was in a space where it's like certain people don't do well. So it was Claude Steele's work, and I'm gonna stop talking right now on stereotype stress. I remember when I first hit
Geillan Aly (23:35)
Yes, yes.
Faith Clarke (23:38)
his work and I'm like, my god, I knew that there was a story about me,
Geillan Aly (23:40)
Yeah. That work was transformative. Yes.
Faith Clarke (23:44)
even when I didn't have language for it, that I was mitigating.
That was affecting me starting my first semester at Colombia. I went to Colombia, I had straight A's. And by the time I finished the masters, I was B's with a C. And I was like this, and I was just so happy to be done. So this sense of integrating the story about me.
And that affecting my performance over the course of a year and a half, two years, and also affecting my body. That was that was the thing. I was like, wow, this is what's happening. And so anyway, just acknowledging that more important than is matha, is math hard. Are we teaching it? It is the environment that's shaping this experience we're having.
Geillan Aly (24:31)
Right. And we we decide to make it hard or not make it hard. And we decide that certain people can do or can't do and off the bat because math is natural to us as humans. Math in general is natural. And I know, listener, please don't like remove download Marcus Play. Like seriously. we are
Critical thinkers and problem solvers, and we are creative animals. So we are
Faith Clarke (24:57)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (24:57)
creative and we are rational. The I think there's always like the what separates us from the animals question, right? And this is this is this falls into that bucket that we have both of these abilities. And so we could look and creatively solve problems or and
The solve problems, the rationality, the purest way of thinking about it for us right now, the way that the best way that we have to think about it, the best tool is mathematics. So mathematics is like the purest way into reaching our most intimate selves, just as it would be as if you were sculpting with clay or creating a new dish or painting a painting.
it math is the same way. And and I think I and I don't know, Becky, if you could relate to this. And I'm sure Faith, you may, but when when when you're doing a math like when you're doing a math problem that was hard that you struggled with and like you get it. Like something truly hit you and it made sense. For me, it's like I shake within my own to my entire body and I could feel it within my soul because I know how innate it is. And I'm
tapping into that. So I don't know, Becky, if you've ever had that feeling when you've really, really
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:16)
Do I have the skeptics look 'cause
Geillan Aly (26:19)
gotten something, but but I promise you it's there. So tell me, ha have you ever felt that way? Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:23)
Hmm. Yeah. No, I haven't. I think all
Faith Clarke (26:27)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:28)
I've ever felt is relief when I have managed to do something in math that was marked correct. And he here was always my biggest challenge. And it remains to this day when I'm trying to help my poor kid with math too. And he's already starting at 10, and he's a boy. He's white, a white male, right? And is starting to develop this belief around himself.
He's not good at math. And I'm really working with him trying to change that story and say, we can tell our we're telling ourselves stories. And then we start to look for things that prove our story. So what if we start to look for the story that we try to prove the story that you are either you're good at math or you're interested in math? You're curious about math. Like
Geillan Aly (27:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:04)
I don't even want to put the pressure on him to say he's good at math. But for me, the biggest challenge was always show us how you did it.
I can get answers. So the innate part to me is that feeling of I could figure out the answer. There was always something in me that would know the answer. And I still have that. I'll be like, I know the answer. But if I have to try to tell you how I got to that answer or why that answer is correct, or like the proof part, that would always be where I'd be like, what do you want from me? Like, here's the answer and I know it's right. Like, why can't this be enough? and so that was always my struggle. And it really contributed to that belief that I wasn't good at math. But when I was reading through your book, I was like,
Some of the stuff I was reading made me feel like, yeah, you know what? The truth is, I am really good at math. I can do really fast math in my head where my husband who actually taught math, yeah, okay. See, so my husband who
Geillan Aly (27:50)
Cans.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:53)
taught math in school, it will take forever to come up with the same answer. I've already come up with. I've arrived. I know the answer and I know in my bones it's right. So it wasn't that I'm bad at math. It's that I
the the power the powers that be, right? The systems are telling you it has to be a certain way, look a certain way, perform a certain way to get there. That part I couldn't prov I couldn't do the performance of math. I can just get I could get to the answer of math. So I don't know, like that I hear what you're saying and I think the closest I ever get would be where I'd have the answer, but it was almost always followed with a real sense of dejection of like I didn't like I got it and it still wasn't good enough.
So I don't know if that like s 'cause I've talked to many other women especially who have felt that same way of yeah, I could
Geillan Aly (28:33)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:33)
get the answers, but I could never figure out how I got to the right answer. And so that I would get like even though I would have the right answer, I'd get half the points or something. And it always felt like WTF.
Geillan Aly (28:42)
Right. Right.
Faith Clarke (28:42)
You're working you're
working out was wrong. I've had I've had
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:45)
And maybe it was setting us
Geillan Aly (28:45)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:46)
up as women to understand we could do the same work and get paid less, but
Faith Clarke (28:51)
Gotten, I've had kids in the classroom who are, you know, b I guess because you know, my kid, my oldest has autism, and so he set me up for my other two who are neurovariant in a bunch of ways. My youngest, I was saying to him 20 plus 20, and he would say 45. And I'm I I don't understand, let's do this again. but he would write code that could calculate.
The 20 plus 20. So I'm like, hmm, what's you just, you know, so I would see kids who couldn't explain their answers. And it became, I became curious about all the other ways that we could see an answer. And it and it became for me, it became an experiment in seeing. And I'm just recognizing how much in our systems we say in every domain, you can only see one way.
And I'm like, there's so many ways to see. Cause if you are reliably
Geillan Aly (29:48)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (29:49)
getting this answer through whatever means that your brain works, that we don't even know, like what a wonder that is. But again, that is moving against the system, you know?
Geillan Aly (30:01)
So
so there's there's a lot to unpack here. So showing your work is a mathematical proof. So that's what you're doing. You're proving that x plus three equals seven. You're proving that x is four, right? So you could say four plus three is seven, so x is four, and the response is how do you know that there's no other number that it could be besides four? How do you know that? And how could you prove that to me?
How can you tell me that it's four, it's only four, and there's no other number but four? That's that's kind of what showing the work does. We don't talk to students in that way, first of all. We're not explaining to students that that's what you're doing. Because I bet you, Becky, if I would say, tell me why this works. In a in just just tell me why and how it works. And let's use the structures that we've set up. Let's set up the rules of the game and tell tell me using the rules of the game, tell me how this works.
You may have had an easier time doing that, right? And and this ties in faith with what you were saying. I'm I'm I was the one way to do math is often either because teachers are handcuffed to a specific curriculum and this is the only solution that is acceptable. Okay. Or sometimes if another method is unfamiliar.
then you don't want to accept it because you don't know how to bridge the content. So if Becky you solve a problem one way and Faith, you solve a problem a different way, if I'm grading you and I only know Faith's method, then Becky, I might just
not accept your problem. Now that's a challenge in teacher training and teacher support and to work around that. And I talk a little bit about that about how the curriculum we learned as kids is not the curriculum that we teach as adults. And that's in, you know, in the book again, The Cycle of Benign Neglect. And so so me as when I was a professor, my students would say, what method do we need to solve? And I said,
I'm a mathematician. Whatever method you use, as long as it's rigorous mathematics, I should be able to read it. As long as it's correct and rigorous and good math. It doesn't matter what method you use.
Now, there might be times where I could say, I want you to use this method because I want to make sure that you have these skills and that you understand this idea, but I should be able to always bridge between different solution methods. And I think those are the challenges that we see. So again, we're putting so much labor and expectation on teachers where they may not have the tools or the equipment or the freedom to leverage and offer the flexibility that we need.
In our classes.
Faith Clarke (32:35)
But I also think that I I developed a mathematical literacy while homeschooling.
Geillan Aly (32:40)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (32:42)
That I did
Geillan Aly (32:42)
okay.
Faith Clarke (32:43)
not have in the classroom. I was teaching students without mathematical literacy. I knew how to follow the rules. I knew how to reproduce the story. I understood how to spot the pattern in a problem and figure out the solution that needed to be applied. That's wholly different from something that feels embodied. And I think the mathematicians that came before us who gave us these rules.
had like you're saying th this feeling that you're describing in your body, that that innate feeling, there is opportunity to even notice and feel that and come up with it to create ideas and theories that we that's not what we got when we went to school. We're told that like you said, this this is
Geillan Aly (33:22)
No, we're not.
Faith Clarke (33:23)
what this is what it is. So when when I'm homeschooling
three kids whose brains don't work in typical ways and I am trying to force them to think in a particular way. Like I quickly gave that up. And then it became about something that felt yeah, just visual. And something that felt movement oriented and something that was in my body. And
and I have had the benefit of lots of people who understand lots of different approaches and so but I like I started to become differently curious. And I I actually outlawed times tables, like we're not gonna do that. But at the same time, I began to understand timetables in a way
Geillan Aly (34:03)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (34:03)
that didn't require me to memorize it. Like I had
Geillan Aly (34:05)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (34:06)
I had the the visual spaces of the sizes of the numbers in my mind.
Geillan Aly (34:13)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (34:13)
So
what what's the shape of all the ways we can make 10? And we're using blocks or we're using right and so I'm I guess part of me is about this assumption that I don't know if it's an assumption that we are that mathematical literacy, the teachers have it.
Cause I for sure know that I didn't, as well as, or even if that's important,
Geillan Aly (34:36)
yeah.
Faith Clarke (34:37)
because I told my kids, to be honest, I was straight with them. I just said the purpose of math is so that people don't steal money from you. And so that you can calm down your amygdala.
Because when you're using your prefrontal cortex, you calm down
Geillan Aly (34:47)
Right. Right. Right.
Faith Clarke (34:49)
your immigrant. It will help you with your anxiety. I wasn't trying to understand the purpose of math in a, you know, kind of esoteric way. I'm just saying I don't want people to steal from you. So you need to kind of get that straight. Everything above that, that's extra. You know, and that stopped me from even requiring them to have a literacy the way I was developing it.
Geillan Aly (35:10)
Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I mean, in terms of the literacy, I think you make a really great point, Faith, right? Like, let's say a teacher isn't the most mathematically competent, most mathematically comfortable person, right? And they go into the classroom, and then the the grand magnitude of what they're doing in teaching math hits them. which
We could argue as to how ex how how extensive that is in American society. unfortunately, I think it is it's it's the data shows it's pretty extensive. The problem is is that the teachers don't have the mental space. Like you took that mental space and that time to play with these ideas and develop it. We don't give teachers enough time for just open space in thinking and
There's also a severe lack of good quality professional development that gives teachers an opportunity to do this work. So, so I love doing professional development. I love working with teachers, and I love sitting there and either helping them work through their own math trauma or helping them reduce math trauma or helping them spend time and
Spend the luxury of having a few hours to just think and play with math in a way that it becomes more innate, that it triggers that that feeling in their soul that I think you started to develop once you s gave yourself the time and the space to do that. And it's sad that we don't give our teachers the time to do that.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:41)
And Faith, I want to I told I wrote it down. Geillan
we've talked a lot about how math training, education as children, and I'm I'm glad we went there because I think everyone can kind of relate to that and how it affects your self-esteem, your self-belief.
then the testing and all of those things, how that can really have serious, you know, effect on your outcomes in life, like where you go next. It can affect
Geillan Aly (37:02)
Yeah, totally.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:03)
where you're gonna go to school, what's what you're gonna study, what you end up doing with your life, so much of them.
Geillan Aly (37:07)
What job you
get, how what good of a loan you can get. Like it's absurd. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:11)
Yeah. It affects so much of our life and
it and it's stuff that starts when we're like five in school. And you mentioned, I just want to quickly I always point this book out whenever we're talking about education. Original Sins by Evewing is such a great book in helping people understand
Geillan Aly (37:23)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:24)
how the education system, this isn't like accidental, like it's by design. It is how this is this it was meant to uphold the structures that exist as they are. So the fact that we see these disparities is not by accident. But
Geillan Aly (37:40)
Yes,
yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:40)
We're
w moving on for for our li sorry.
Faith Clarke (37:41)
Becky. I
was just saying a friend the my that same friend said the education system is not failing. It's doing exactly what it's
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:48)
Yeah, no, it's do exactly what it's
Faith Clarke (37:50)
was supposed to do.
Geillan Aly (37:51)
Yeah, which is why I wrote my book.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:51)
Yeah, when whatever we talk about is
Geillan Aly (37:53)
It's a subversive answer to that. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:55)
And I love that. We love subversive anything.
I want for listeners though, who are maybe not parents or even if they are, but like they're working professionals and
Geillan Aly (38:01)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:03)
and they may feel like me, where it was like math was this thing I had to conquer just in order to like get through and get the education I wanted, get through the degree, whatever. And now I'm out in real life and like I'm done with that part of life. But I know in the book you talk about all the ways it still shows up, but how even beyond just the ways we're using math.
How does some of this math trauma that you talk about, how do you see it manifesting in adult professionals?
Geillan Aly (38:27)
Becky, do you know that I've I get calls from women who, as part of their midwife crisis, perimenopausal cleanse and reestablishment of like finding their inner selves? Do you know that I get calls from those women saying, I want to tap back into my math person? I want to work through my math trauma. Like, this is not.
A it it carries, it carries. I interviewed Steve Kilby, lead singer of the church, Australian rock band, Australian Hall of Fame, Avra, like huge, huge, and he talks to me and he was like talking in camera. He's still mad about his algebra class. It still sits and it still carries. And it carries when you go into
A meeting with if you're a woman with a bunch of salespeople and they're looking at you and they're trying and they're throwing out all sorts of like, well, what are the KPIs and ROIs and blah blah blah and blah blah blah and you know, and trying to like push you and throw you off your game or push back on questions and throw and try to throw you off your game by throwing a bunch of math at you, which is what somebody called me and talked to me about, about how they
don't feel comfortable being in certain spaces and in certain meetings because of the math that's in that's just standard. And they're like, I feel I can do the work when I'm at my desk. I can't walk into the room and and have that conversation. And it takes them back to elementary school. The math trauma, so yeah, you you're out of school, you have your job, you're all great, everything's great. But if you listen to that, to the little person inside of you, it might still be there.
And you might still need to go back and re-establish that relationship and give that little boy or girl or whomever a little hug and explain to them that you're human and therefore you're mathematical and therefore you can do all of this work. It's it's wild.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:32)
Well, my little my
my little girl remembers the seventh grade math teacher who made who shamed me for not knowing my times tables well enough at that age. And I I'll never forget that. Like I like that is deep in my bones, right?
Geillan Aly (40:39)
Yes. Right. Yeah. It yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:46)
And you're right. I realize more and more as I get older I think the paramenopause age is great because it does make us have all these realizations. Well, I don't love
Geillan Aly (40:51)
Love, I'm lovin' except for except for like last night.
My h I told my husband this morning that my little my little boy came in. Mama, I had a bad dream and he woke me up and he was like, were you and I looked at my and I looked at my husband, I just like he woke me up at menopausal clock. And it was like it was like, three fifteen, huh? I'm like, so 'cause if I wake up at three fifteen, I'm not going back to bed.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:13)
No, and I and waking up in a sweat is not fun. But I do
love how it's got you caught me questioning things. And I will just say, like reading through your book, I was having those like moments of realization of just that feeling
Geillan Aly (41:24)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:24)
that I think we all deserve to have. And I know that Faith and I care so much about, which is, it wasn't me. It wasn't me. It was never me. It was all of this
Geillan Aly (41:30)
That validation, remove the shame. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:34)
other stuff. And actually, when I really think about it as I was looking at your book, I'm like, no, I am actually
Pretty darn good at math. Like I can figure stuff, but I just have to quit the story that has been given to me. So I appreciate that. And and I do think it shows up for us in so many ways beyond just like, you know, trying to fill out a whatever spreadsheet of yeah. I mean, because I think many of us
Geillan Aly (41:54)
Yeah, the tax forms or whatever, yeah, sparks she, whatever. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:57)
think, like, I got tools now that can do all this stuff for me. And so that's true. But I think the important piece is that part of what it's done to us internally.
Geillan Aly (42:04)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:05)
and
I would imagine then reconquering, relearning and trying to conquer some of those things probably helps with some of the healing.
Geillan Aly (42:11)
Totally. Absolutely.
Faith Clarke (42:11)
How how do we do
this healing? This is a part I'm I'm quite curious about.
Like what do you recommend in terms of healing and what are some maybe stories of how people have done this healing for themselves?
Geillan Aly (42:21)
I give a lot of techniques and tools and honestly the the general idea sort of what Becky was saying is that reading through the work and saying, these are the stories that are now in my head that are not in reality, that are not related to my actual skill set, and being able to separate those two things, both my s my experiences and
and my capabilities are separated. And once you can separate them, then you can actually tap into your skill set or leverage your experiences independently. So that's that's essentially what happens when you're when when you start to heal your math trauma. And so I have so I talk about things like imposter syndrome and math anxiety and stereotype threat and
self-efficacy your confidence to help somebody work through each of those little pieces, but it's up to them to find themselves in
Faith Clarke (43:19)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (43:20)
in the book. But you know my most interesting, my most interesting student in in terms of an an older person who wanted to reclaim math for the sake of reclaiming math, by about the third or fourth session, she said, I'm not sure why I'm paying you.
I don't know what we're doing because we're just going through math and it's all math that makes sense and I get it. And I'm starting to go, you know, and I've I've noticed that I could just go into these, into these meetings, like I realize that it's just the math and I can I can work through it. And so I don't think I need to pay you anymore. I don't think we need to meet anymore. And I like, great. I mean that's that's
Faith Clarke (44:02)
That's it. We've
Geillan Aly (44:04)
all you need because when when math is just math.
And it doesn't come with chains and baggage and stories and that when it's you know, how cool would it be if math class were just another class without any
Faith Clarke (44:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Geillan Aly (44:17)
drama? And that's you know, I was very relieved when she said that because it showed how far she had come. And I don't and I'm not sure if she actually truly knew it. I think she didn't know the extent the as far
I don't think she understood how far she truly came between the stories we had and then the story she had in her head about four or five sessions later. It was it was a pretty unreal transformation.
Faith Clarke (44:47)
So if you are guiding someone through their own process without one-on-one sessions with you, they just want to try to heal
Geillan Aly (44:56)
yeah.
Faith Clarke (44:56)
something, to kind
Geillan Aly (44:58)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (44:58)
of shift the internal narrative or something, how
Geillan Aly (45:01)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (45:01)
would you say a person would start?
Geillan Aly (45:03)
Just do some math. Do some math without without shame, without anything, without anyone, without like YouTube screaming at you or somebody making you feel like you did it one way or another. Actually, even simpler, look around your world and look at all the math that you can see. Look at all the geometries. Look at all the numbers. Do you know play times tables in your head?
And then multiply two gig digit numbers by one digit number and like like start simple. just get in touch with the math in you. You don't need my book to do that.
Faith Clarke (45:38)
Yeah,
Geillan Aly (45:39)
You don't need to work with me to do that. Just find it within yourself. Cause it's there.
Faith Clarke (45:44)
I think that I I got and I d I don't even know why I started as much as you know I would decided I was homeschooling, so I'm gonna
Geillan Aly (45:51)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (45:52)
figure this out. And again, a problem that ideal because I didn't have an aversion, but I got introduced to Cuisinaire rods and Gatagnos method for
Helping kids play with the cuisinaire rods. And so I was playing with the rods to build these patterns out. And my kids thought they were just toys. So they would build elaborate structures with the rods. And we were just looking at the relationship between the red one and the yellow one and the brown. We didn't put numbers on
Geillan Aly (46:27)
And you don't
have to put numbers and you don't have to you don't have to make it a thing. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (46:30)
No, right. It was
just and then just noticing that we already know what a half is. So this one is a half of this one. there's something about giving ourselves permission to play. And
Geillan Aly (46:42)
Yes, thank you.
Yes.
Faith Clarke (46:44)
just kind of being in the
rhythm of that. We a part of my timetable healing was timetable songs that were to you know hip-hop and you know dance hall and and so there was like and it was just listening to the rhythm
Geillan Aly (46:57)
mm, mm.
Faith Clarke (47:00)
and just kind of singing along and then noticing little tricks like wait when we the nines the nines all add up to ten so one and nine and then two and eight and then and and it was like
That's kind of weird. So I think there's a way that if we can let ourselves play, that the playful part of us is a part that's not judging. I think it's hard to play well when we're judging,
Geillan Aly (47:25)
yeah, and it starts to get hard when we're like playing and then there's accountability
and we have to keep that in mind, but but then there is that point of there's a difference between accountability and exclusivity of holding somebody accountable for knowing what they need to know and using something as a way to keep somebody out.
Faith Clarke (47:46)
Yeah.
Geillan Aly (47:46)
And the interplay between play and accountability and exclusivity is is is fascinating. But yeah, you're totally right. Just play. Play, play, play, play, play. In in whatever way, in whatever scope, whatever space that you have, play. And you start to see that maybe it'll start to change the story that you hold in your head.
Faith Clarke (48:09)
Thank you.
Geillan as we wrap up,
what's a wish that you have for yourself as you think about taking continuing this work into the future?
Geillan Aly (48:19)
Love to do my math trauma workshop as a Netflix special so that everybody could just watch it and then we could start having a whole new conversation about math and how we can learn it and not learn it and who's capable.
Faith Clarke (48:40)
Where are you located?
Geillan Aly (48:41)
I'm in Connecticut.
Faith Clarke (48:43)
I I I feel like you should just go to the film schools. You can get a student and just say, hey, you want a project?
Geillan Aly (48:50)
So I'm in the midst of recording it with an audience so that I could so I could actually create an online course for it. I don't I Lordy, I don't want to sit in front of a Zoom camera and like and just record it myself. I wanna do it in a space where I could feel the energy and feel the love.
But I would love for this, like I don't I'm try I I work I'm trying really hard to make my work as accessible as possible. So I worked with my publisher, my publisher and I worked to make the book as inexpensive as possible. It should be priced as a textbook. We know how expensive textbooks are, and we both agreed to make it very accessible. Like I wanna make a recording of my math trauma work so that and make it relatively accessible.
there there are so few people doing this work and I honestly think that the work that I'm doing is of such high quality and caliber that I I want it to be universal. This is not a meglomaniacal selfish thing.
Faith Clarke (49:47)
No.
Geillan Aly (49:48)
I just want I I don't want this conversation around math to continue for another generation. So
The best way I could think of that is to make a Netflix special.
Faith Clarke (50:00)
I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Let's do it. Let's do
Geillan Aly (50:02)
Wonderful.
Faith Clarke (50:03)
it. All right. So as we wrap up, yes
Geillan Aly (50:05)
Uh-huh.
Faith Clarke (50:06)
and otherwise, our framing is really around how can we get the both and that's the yes and. So today,
Geillan Aly (50:14)
Okay.
Faith Clarke (50:15)
what are you saying yes to?
Geillan Aly (50:17)
I'm trying to say yes to being more open.
Faith Clarke (50:19)
You're saying yes to being more open.
Geillan Aly (50:21)
Being
more open, more open to dot dot dot Opportunities, changes, different scenarios, just being more open,
Faith Clarke (50:31)
Yes, to being more open and
Geillan Aly (50:33)
And this is funny. This is a conversation I just had with my husband last night. And celebrating life more. we don't celebrate anniversaries or birthdays and things in as much or in general. because we feel like you know every every day is great.
But I said, but if every day is special, then no day is special. So
Let's spend a little bit more time cherishing and making special, like finding and being deliberate about special.
Faith Clarke (50:59)
Otherwise the
Geillan Aly (51:00)
Otherwise, it's very easy to fall into you think every day is great, but then every day is special, but then if every day is special, then nothing is special.
So I'm being more open to thinking about shaking up some of our routines. And we're gonna start simple by just spending time to celebrate a little bit more.
Faith Clarke (51:22)
So when this episode comes out, like I would love to hear. Maybe you could just comment when we'll we'll we'll send it all all the information to you. But like what
Geillan Aly (51:30)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (51:30)
are you shaking up? So this is homework I'm giving you. You'll you'll tell us what are you sh what did you shake up between this recording and whenever it is that this comes out.
Geillan Aly (51:39)
so there's accountability in that question. my goodness.
Faith Clarke (51:44)
thank you so much, Geillan Where can people find you? And we'll put all that in the show notes.
Geillan Aly (51:49)
Excellent. So you can find me at compassionatemath.com. I am on LinkedIn at Geillan Aly G-E-I-L-L-A-N. Last name is A-L-Y.
Faith Clarke (51:59)
thank you so much for this beautiful conversation. That math threads through everything. So really, really appreciate your work.
Geillan Aly (52:06)
Wonderful. Thank you. I had such a great time. This was Such a fun discussion.