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Candid conversations for the church. Host is Ardin Beech of Windsor District Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia. Co-hosted by Jonathan Hoffman.
Welcome once again to this week at Windsor, Arden and my cohost, Doctor. J. Good to have you back.
Jonathan Hoffman:Great to be back. Well, Arden, I am so excited to have on our show today Craig Farmer. This is a gentleman that I've gotten to know a little bit over the last couple years in a professional capacity. I always leave encouraged, and I'm really glad to have him here today with us. Craig, welcome.
Craig Farmer:Thank you.
Jonathan Hoffman:Great to have you here. Craig, you work for a company called Partners in Ministry. Tell us a bit about that. What's your role there? What do you do with them?
Jonathan Hoffman:And explain a bit about your, yeah, your role.
Craig Farmer:Yeah. So Partners in Ministry is national organization that our basic, you know, purpose is to come alongside churches and pastors and help them to be as effective and as healthy as possible. So we do 3 things fundamentally, one is we, do mentoring coachings to vision for pastors. The second is we do training, leadership training, and other ministry training for, you know, churches. And the third is that, we do consultancy.
Craig Farmer:So we come in and we help churches to work out how healthy they are, you know, what the next step is, restructure, create strategic plans, all those sorts of things. So my role, is as one of those, what we call partners, and I lead the New South Wales and Tasmanian team, and I also lead the what we call the church development team, the consultancy team. So, that's what I do there, and I've been doing it for a couple years, and I love it. On top of that, just as an aside, I run my own company that also does similar things, but in the if you like the corporate world, the, not for profit world, the government world. So I I run, you know, I coach leaders, I, do consultancies on organizations and run lots of leadership training.
Jonathan Hoffman:Now, were you always in that consultancy space, or did you just come into that recently?
Craig Farmer:So no. I mean, like all people, you know, I've had quite a long journey with various careers, no one stays in the same job. But I started, in social sciences, so social worker, youth worker, and then I trained as a pastor after that, in the 2nd degree, and was a pastor in Sydney here in, Bankstown area for 16 years. And then, about 13 years ago, I left that to then start my own consultancy business. And then about a year and a half, maybe even 2 years now, I've been with Partners in Ministry.
Jonathan Hoffman:How did you find that transition coming out of a, church space and ecclesial context? I imagine it it has its own sort of rhythms and cultures and things like that. And here you are, you're working in the corporate world. You're you're coming to churches, but from an outside perspective. Can you talk a little bit about that transition for you and what that was like?
Jonathan Hoffman:What what were the adjustments? Were there any bumps, or was it all pretty smooth?
Craig Farmer:It's a good question. I mean, before you before we talk about the actual transition, the the decision to make the transition, I think big decisions like that, life decisions are so challenging. And so lots of prayer, lots of talking, and, to be really blunt with you, I didn't feel like god said, and now do it. No? I didn't hear his.
Craig Farmer:What I heard was, you decide, or something similar. I went, oh, okay. And so, it it took quite a bit of time. But when I made the jump, part of it was because I was feeling like I needed a new challenge, I was a bit stale if you like, even though everything was going, you know, well, I was enjoying the job, in various ways, as being a pastor, I love it. The transition, the hardest bit of all of it is that you, and I don't know if every pastor does this or needs to do this, but, we decided it was wise for us to leave that church, community.
Craig Farmer:And so, yeah, we'd been my wife had grown up in that church, my kids had all grown up in that church, I've been at the church for 20 something years and so to leave that community, that was heart wrenching and really, really challenging. Of course, we've still got friends from there, but what you also recognize is how how many people you relate to more because it's convenient than because, you know, there's a deep connection. Un unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know. So I found that, but what I also found was just, I loved the transition was really enjoyable because I loved the work that I was doing. I was growing.
Craig Farmer:I was going into worlds that I could never believe that I would be invited to, let alone be asked to be the expert in. So I just, I loved it. I still do. The other part of it is that, you know, I led a a reasonably, you know, sized church, lots of moving parts. And so then to not have all those responsibilities and, you know, all the the various things, was quite enjoyable.
Craig Farmer:I remember, the very first Christmas by the way, my dad was a pastor. So Christmas, you know, Easter, 2 services every week, you know, all that sort of thing. And, and so the very first Christmas, I wasn't a pastor and didn't have to be in church, if you like. I remember my wife and I, we're up the coast with my kids our kids, and, we decided, will we go to church today? And if we did, we didn't have to be there early, so we decided to go to the beach.
Craig Farmer:And there was always people at the beach. I went, oh my gosh. Is this what this what this what everyone is who doesn't go to church too on Christmas day. It was just so weird for me. So it was a real a dislocation, but mostly positive.
Craig Farmer:Yeah.
Jonathan Hoffman:Did you find that people treated you differently? You said you you sort of had a relationship with the church, but but you were a pastor in the church, lead pastor in the church. Did they treat you differently? If so, how?
Craig Farmer:Well, I mean, yes. They did. I mean, it's really hard for people in the church. This is my experience, anyway. It's really hard because at one level, we're a community.
Craig Farmer:We call it our silver family. At the other level, as a pastor, you have a certain authority, both spiritual, moral, and positional. And so it's really hard not to for people, including ourselves, not to get mixed up with which hat I'm wearing, you know, when I'm at a barbecue. Am I just a mate? Or actually, am I the pastor?
Craig Farmer:And the answer is yes. And so what I found was that, there was, as I said, a lot of relationships that were really positive and strong, but actually, they were more circumstantial and positional. And so I did find that actually they, they changed, and, you know, we let go of a lot of friendships, a lot of relationships. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a a sad thing in some case in some cases. But, yes, people do relate to you as a pastor because you have certain power or certain whatever place, if I can put it that way.
Craig Farmer:Yeah.
Jonathan Hoffman:So, Craig, you were just talking to us about kind of that transition out of the church space and what that was like as a now a parishioner from a pastor. Can you talk to us entering the corporate world? What was that or, you know, what was that like? What were some of the adjustments that you had to face and how to conduct mentally for leaving the church context into the corporate institutional context?
Craig Farmer:Yeah. I mean, it's a fascinating conversation from my perspective. I mean, just to get used to not praying at the beginning or the end of a meeting, it was just like, what is going on? It was just bizarre. Just that one little thing.
Craig Farmer:I found, 2 things. You know, one thing is that, we're particularly, if we're talking about leaders and leadership, is that you recognize that there's a lot of people in very senior positions who have had very little to no leadership training. They don't read books, they don't think about leadership per se. And so I real I recognize that a lot of pastors are very skilled and very diligent in their leadership, journey. And the other thing is how all of the principles, the biblical principles of how you treat people, what ethics look like, what, you know, what good leadership, servant leadership looks like, is incredibly relevant and powerful in any context, actually.
Craig Farmer:I found that my, my people, the people that I really work with the most are anyone that's helping people. So my business fundamentally helps government departments that are in the service industry, so like Fire and Rescue New South Wales, SES, AMPSA, all those sorts of, you know, big federal and, state government departments. And then a lot of large not for profits, you know, Vinnys, Wesley, you know, these sorts of organizations that I work for because my values and ethics align with them.
Jonathan Hoffman:Craig, one of the things that I've appreciated in my interactions with you is you seem to personally have a sense of your own self that feels fairly fixed and self aware, and yet you're able to engage with others. I wonder if you could talk us through a bit of the the inward journey, spiritually, mentally, kind of that road you have to get in to occupy this coaching space of understanding who you are, but also being very open and adaptable to the people that you're talking to. Does that make sense?
Craig Farmer:I mean, the hardest journey is spiritual maturity and and self awareness, but from that comes everything. When I employ people, the number one thing I look for was security, internal, security of who they are as a person. And of course, that comes fundamentally from how we understand God to see us, value us, and, gift us. And just coming to a just a settledness that I'm good at some things, and I'm really not good at other things, you know, just that's it, done. But the other thing is that I I call my wife my greatest discipler, because when we were married at 23 and 22, I think, well, I know that I was pretty selfish and self centered.
Craig Farmer:And so because she was strong in a positive sense, to say, no, I deserve better, over time I grew up. And one of the things that I noticed is that I went from wanting to serve her or anyone for that matter because it was the right thing to do or it was a good thing to do or it served me as well to wanting to serve other people because of love. And that's, I think, that's Jesus' whole message, isn't it? Or one of them. And so, when I noticed in myself that I thought, oh, this will make my wife happy, and I wanna make her happy, and therefore I wanna do x, y, and z, which I wouldn't normally wanna do it in myself, then I started doing it.
Craig Farmer:So coming back to your actual question, I've got a saying, and I don't know where I picked it up from, but, if I can help others reach their dreams, goals, whatever it is, aspirations, then mine will look after themselves. That's that's my fundamental sort of thought. So when whoever is sitting in front of me, whether it be right now, I'm trying to be completely present to them and quieten all the internal noise that happens in terms of this is, you know, what I feel or I feel insecure right now or I feel or I need this. I'm just trying to just dampen that down so I'm saying what does what do these 2 people need right now, or the people listening to us, what do they need right now? How do I serve them best?
Craig Farmer:And so that's just served me well, that one little saying, and it's proven true. I walk into organizations of various sorts, and I'm fully trying to serve them in their needs. And what I find is that people trust me pretty quickly, because they can feel that, like it's a vibe more than it is anything. And anytime that I've strayed from that and I've tried to sell or I've tried to position myself, oh my gosh. I feel it, and I reckon I can feel it too.
Craig Farmer:And anytime that my own insecurities raise, which is quite often to tell you through, then, I can feel that as well. And I can feel myself losing being present with the person. Yeah.
Ardin Beech:What's what's similar between a a good church leader and a good corporate leader? Are there skill sets that are transferable? Are they are they essentially the same person, but in different environments?
Craig Farmer:Oh, it's a great question. I mean, look, again, this will reveal my philosophy, but I think that it's got, let me give you, 4 or 5. 1 is emotional intelligence. If you're good with people, you can read, you can manage yourself, you can understand other people's feelings, and you know how to, you know, be empathetic, then, 90%. And all the research actually bears that out.
Craig Farmer:That doesn't matter, what industry you're in, if you've got high emotional intelligence, you're more likely to be, successful. Interestingly, just a side note, is that it there's some research that I've read, not fairly recently, saying that pastors have lower, generally, lower than, the average emotional intelligence. And the longer they are past, the the more their emotional intelligence goes down slightly. That's scary, Ira.
Jonathan Hoffman:The the data fits. The data.
Craig Farmer:Yeah. But don't don't don't look at Jonathan. And so, emotional intelligence is 1. I think the ability to have and inspire a shared vision, is the other, regardless of what industry you're in. And the other part is to find people better than you at whatever it is you need, them to be better at you in, and let them go.
Craig Farmer:So trust, empowerment, delegation. To me, they're the 3 things that if you're a good leader in that context, in those ways, then I think you can be a good leader anyway, and because what I'm talking about here is the ability to build great team. That's my experience anyway. Yeah. And I would add another one, vision is okay, but strategy, the ability to strategize and execute, that's actually a really, really, really important skill that really good leaders of in either sphere, have.
Craig Farmer:Yeah.
Jonathan Hoffman:Can you tell me a little bit about working with, Andrew Ranucci? Andrew Ranucci, I know you guys partner up. I've experienced some events that you guys have put on together. I found I find your pairing fascinating because if if you said to me, would you put these 2 to work together? I would think no.
Jonathan Hoffman:I have you in a category of people that for better or for worse, don't seem to have time to go slow. And I look at someone like Andrew, who is a spiritual director, who seems to be quite content and quite, capable and actually drawn to the slow. And and that I think is the incompatibility that I don't usually see together.
Craig Farmer:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So but my question is Yeah.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yeah, how do you go with working someone maybe you're the same. I I don't know. It's just my observation, but yeah.
Craig Farmer:No. It's a it's a good observation. I think one of my strengths, generally as a person, is to notice people's skills, giftings, abilities, and value them for who they are, and just notice that and champion that. Because I recognize that I've got a fairly limited ability and skill set and and perspective, and so I genuinely believe that there's lots and lots and lots of other people who are better than me at so many things, and so what an idiot am I if I don't find them and surround myself with them in various contexts, informally and formally, you know, like in leadership roles as a leader or as friends or as colleagues or whatever. And just I just find that people are fascinating, And, like I said, my wife is a beautiful, you know, I just think she's the best, and she's completely opposite to me.
Craig Farmer:And we know that opposites, when they they mesh together, they they enable each other to become even more full, whole, and holy. And so, I think it's the same with marriage, isn't it? Good marriages anyway. Yeah.
Jonathan Hoffman:I had a question about encouragement. You said, you know, I wanna champion. And and for an American, we'd like to talk about American versus Australian culture here. I'll just because it's creeping in. That's why.
Jonathan Hoffman:I'll just say that we, one of the things that hits you in the face as an American, when you come to this culture is the, the lack of encouragement, generally speaking. Now I think having lived here now 14 years, I can say Americans lay it on pretty thick. So so so I'm not I'm not saying, hey, what you know, why can't they be like Americans? Right? But I have had Australians tell me they've said they struggle to, you know, receive a compliment or they struggle to, to just give a verbal affirmation.
Jonathan Hoffman:You you if you wanna see an Australian squirm, just say something nice to them and they'll crawl under
Craig Farmer:a rock.
Jonathan Hoffman:So anyway, that's just my observation. I wonder, how do you go as someone who's in a encouraging space? Do you find there's a unique element to the Australian culture? Am I wrong on that? Would you nuance it in any way?
Jonathan Hoffman:How do you go about encouraging Australians? Because that's a that's a mystery box I don't feel like I fully unpack.
Craig Farmer:Yeah. You're exactly spot on in terms of the description you have, because I work with a lot of leaders in various contexts, and it's true. People don't encourage each other at all. Many, many years ago, my dad overheard me, and my brother and sister, and my sister's now husband, just bagging out each other. And my dad was a fairly calm person, but he roared into the room, and he just tore strips off us and said, out there, you know, there's lots of people that'll be knockers.
Craig Farmer:In this household, in this family, we want to build each other up. And that stuck with me obviously. And then I've had a really good friend who I grew up with in Australia, now lives in America, in Texas, and he would come back, and he would say the same thing that you did, and it just really helped me see it, quite starkly. But also, I just think that there's just not enough encouragement in the world, and every single person needs to be told, I see you, I value you, and here's why. I do an activity or activities in my team building session where and I'll do it in any organization, any level, like, I've done it with CEOs, and their exec team.
Craig Farmer:And I'll just say, right, write your name on a on a, an envelope, and then I give them all file cards, and they're just gonna write an affirmation of each other. And it could be a characteristic or a skill, but what I try and say is more about who they are rather than what they do, or what they've done for you. And I'm not exaggerating when I say that every single time I've got it, there's tears in
Jonathan Hoffman:people's
Craig Farmer:eyes as they hear the people saying, you know, hey, you're an awesome human being because and I well, and you you see, I mean, I've had people literally burst out crying, but mostly it's just, wow, thank you everyone. So I just say to people, one of my jobs is to get you to say to each other what you already feel, but you don't know how to say. So I just think that my job is to bring encouragement to people who don't normally get it. And so the people listening to this, if you've got a pastor, maybe Jonathan or whatever, just recognize that mostly, they don't hear well done. They don't hear, this is what I appreciate about you.
Craig Farmer:They don't hear that very much at all. So I get to be behind closed doors and say, here's what I love about you, mate. You're also that.
Ardin Beech:A similar kind of question for folks that aren't in leadership already, but given your experience, you can see that perhaps they have a gift for leadership. And maybe they have sort of a bit of a Moses complex where you're saying you can do this, you're born for this, but they won't do it. You know, they're they're looking for an errand to kinda hide behind. How do you encourage them to sort of step up into a leadership role?
Craig Farmer:I mean, there's many many ways. I mean, I think one of them is just to keep on speaking into them. That, what you see and why. 2 is to give them just a little assignment, you know, to say, hey, try this, well done, coach them through that. And I mean, fundamentally, leadership first and foremost is a decision to be responsible for others, you know, to be a shepherd or to be a servant of others.
Craig Farmer:And so, it's not a position of power or status, and if it is, then wrong job, get out, run away, or make sure they run away. But, if someone can say to themselves, actually, I do have a feeling that I want to influence the decisions, or the direction, or the whatever, then keep speaking into them. And people who know me well now and know that I go around the country teaching leadership, which is just hilarious to me. When I was 21, 22, in Bible College, the senior pastor at the time said, you know you're a real leader, and I said, no. I'm not.
Craig Farmer:And he said, yes, you are. And, bit by bit, he just kept speaking those words into me, and, I took a gamble running this or doing that or be responsible for that. And when I finished Bible College, that guy asked me to be an associate pastor, which was a shock to me. And then, a year and a half in, he told me, you know, not very long from now, you're gonna be running this church, you'll be the senior pastor. And, I was all of 27 at the time, and, he was way older and way more experienced.
Craig Farmer:Anyway, a year and a bit later, I was the senior pastor, and he became the associate. And it worked. It was all about him, you know, what does, John the Baptist say? You know, I must decrease so that he must increase. I'm not talking about me being Jesus, I'm just saying that, then they that guy had a security, and if you see someone who's brilliant at something, or got a gift or a call on their life, then in order to champion them, sometimes you gotta give them part of what you're doing, or give them a stage or a platform for them to do stuff that means that you don't get the same platform or stage.
Craig Farmer:So you gotta be willing in in that regard.
Jonathan Hoffman:I think the last one, for me, Craig, and I really appreciated your wisdom and insight, and, I hope that those who are listening are listening carefully. But take us to your relationship with Christ. You said you're in a pastor's home. I got 4 kids. One thing that I always worry about for them, and it's probably not helping that I worry, but, you know, the faith is so often assumed for children of Christian parents, let alone children of pastors.
Jonathan Hoffman:How did you go, coming to own this faith for yourself?
Craig Farmer:Yeah. Have you got a week? It's a longer conversation, isn't it? For all of us, I think. You know, there's once born, twice born, a 3rd born, in terms of not, I'm talking about second blessing, I'm just talking about deepening revelation and conviction about who Jesus is and who he is.
Craig Farmer:And so, I would say, I am this is the way I describe it, and I hope this is okay for people to hear, and not just judge me, But I feel like I'm not a very good natural Christian. I doubt very easily. I question very a lot. And so when I see inconsistencies between various bible passages or between what the bible says and what I see in the world or in the church or in myself, it just makes me go, you know, the freak of, you know, whatever you call it, whether it's God's sovereignty or whatever, I just happened to be born in a pastor's home, so now I believe in Jesus. And so, even that one thought makes me rumble around of, if I was born in Pakistan, you know, to an imam, would I just be a Muslim, you know?
Craig Farmer:And so, that's the background, you know, that I've always struggled with intellectually, working through faith. But fundamentally, I have had multiple times encounters with Jesus that has made me recognize whom else will I go to. And so, my relationship with God has gone up and down, you know, through to be really blunt, some really dark moments of, do I really even believe? Those sorts of thoughts. And one of the things I recognize is that in the church, there's really not very many safe places to ask those sorts of questions, and to grapple with, because everyone around you knows the answers and wants to convince you of the answers, not let you sit in your, you know, confusion or questions without an non anxious presence, if that makes sense.
Craig Farmer:And so, I found that really challenging, and quite lonely actually at times, but God's so gracious, and so kind, and so smart, and so wise, he knows exactly what he's doing. And, so I've just, over the years, engaged with very spiritual discipline, explored different, ways of engaging with God, and just coming to come to a deeper and deeper and deeper love of his grace, his wisdom, his gentleness. I would say that things like, you know, camps, retreats, things that take you out of your everyday and allow you to reflect, for me personally, is one of the key things that throughout my life that's that's been helpful.
Jonathan Hoffman:Craig, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time. What a wonderful opportunity to hear your wisdom and insight. And, yeah.
Craig Farmer:No problem at all. Thanks, guys, for the opportunity, and hope that is helpful for others as, as well.
Ardin Beech:Well, that was pretty cool. I think what stuck out for me probably the most was the idea of humility in leadership. You know, he he went over it a couple of times just saying, you know, you you've got you need a real heart for bringing the best out in people and leading people and and, you know, drawing them to you to be a leader. It's not all about being the top of the pyramid and and all the 1,000,000 of dollars and stuff.
Jonathan Hoffman:Yeah. I really loved his line about when you when you're grabbing for power, that's the time to walk away. When leadership becomes about power and authority and that becomes the object, that becomes the desire, that's when you need to leave or that's when you need to shoot somebody away. So I think, you know, they have really great insights there. And I appreciate his transparency and humility about his his faith journey and where he's, you know, where he's up to.
Jonathan Hoffman:And I think we can learn a lot from being present, being self aware, being ready to listen to others, and not having to feel like we're the best at everything to have a place, but to just say this is me, this is who I am, and I'm here with you.
Ardin Beech:Another amazing episode. Thank you
Jonathan Hoffman:so much. This is a real treat to get to do this with you.
Ardin Beech:It's fun, isn't it? Yeah. I'm enjoying it. Well, a big thanks to Craig, our special guest, and, of course, a big thanks to Katie who does all the hard work behind the scenes.
Craig Farmer:This week at Windsor, we'll be back soon.