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In RONderings, Ron talks to his guests about their superpowers, including career advice, diversity, mindset, wellness, and leadership. Ron grew up in New York City, and has been coaching and leading executive searches for the last five years, taking what he has learned from 15 years in corporate, higher education, government, and non-profit contexts. He and his wife are obsessed with reality television, and Ron also moonlights as a men's personal stylist and group fitness instructor. Ron says, "I believe in the power of intuition and deepening one’s self-awareness and impact on others. I believe in the power of connection and transparency. I believe that we must dismantle systems of oppression and racism to recover our fullest humanity. Most of all, I believe our power to change the world starts from changing ourselves first."
Ron Rapatalo: (00:00:00) What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo and this is the Ronderings Podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shape them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair. Let's get into it.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:00:26) Welcome to Ronderings, where we have real conversations with incredible people who are shaping the way we think, lead, and live. Today, I'm joined by the brilliant Natalie Holder, a trailblazer in diversity, equity, and inclusion. From her NYU roots to her work as a chief diversity officer, Natalie has built a career centered into creating workplaces where everyone belongs and can thrive. In this episode, we talk about her journey, the defining moments, the pivots, and the lessons she's learned about allyship, leadership, and purpose. Whether you're leading a team, navigating your own career shifts, or simply trying to show up more fully in your work in life, Natalie's story has something for you. Let's jump in.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:01:05) Hey friends, before we get started, I want to share something that's been a big part of my own journey. Two years ago, I published my book, Leverage. That experience cracked something open for me. I saw how publishing isn't just about pages, about owning your story, sharpening your voice, and amplifying your impact. The part that meant the most, readers reached out to me to say they felt seen. That's when I knew this work mattered. I loved this so much I co-founded Leverage Publishing Group with friends who would make know this world inside and out. Now, we help leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers turn their ideas into books and podcasts that actually move. People got a star in you and I know you do. Let's chat. Find me on LinkedIn or at leveragepublishinggroup.com cuz the world doesn't just need more books. It needs your book. All right, let's get to today's episode. Peace.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:02:11) Ronderings Universe. I have I have this theme where I invite people in the biggest concentric circles of my life. And so this is one of my NYU Violet homies, employment lawyer, inclusion extraordinaire, expert, my friend, longtime friend Natalie Holder is on the mic. Natalie, how you doing?
Natalie Holder: (00:02:30) I am well, Ron. How are you?
Ron Rapatalo: (00:02:32) I'm good. If I recall correctly, you live on our nation's capital, correct?
Natalie Holder: (00:02:38) I do. I do. So, full transparency, I live about 18 miles west of our nation's capital now. But I did live in the the deep MV for a few years.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:02:51) Got it. Got it. But how are you doing today before we have you do most of the chatting?
Natalie Holder: (00:02:58) All is well. Ron, thank you so having me on this platform. I'm looking forward to this.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:03:03) I'm looking forward too. You're someone that I deeply respect and the work that you do, but also just your humanity, how you show for people. So is my privilege to create this space that we can chop it up. So without further ado, Natalie, what is your story?
Natalie Holder: (00:03:19) Ah, what is my story? Oh, Ron, you're you know, you ask the the deep questions, don't you?
Ron Rapatalo: (00:03:26) Well, this is this is the kickoff of all the episodes, so I'm just saying like we get right into it.
Natalie Holder: (00:03:32) We do. So, Ron, you know, I would say that my star that my story, a big part of it is New York University. We share being, you know, on the quote unquote green in the lobe cafeteria. We shared.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:03:48) Oh god.
Natalie Holder: (00:03:50) We shared being greenies. We shared, you know, getting breakfast at Weinstein Hall. We shared being, you know, in different elements of the Washington Square, you know, park area. And, you know, I would say that a lot of that really did help to build who I am today. You know, at the time, I thought I was going to be a journalist. I had this interest in hearing stories. Yeah. It or not, I was interested in journalism. I was a communication student major with a minor in marketing.
Natalie Holder: (00:04:31) And so I spent part of my time in school of ed and then part of my time at Stern. And you know I at some point realized there's another avenue for hearing stories and being able to take action on them and that's going to law school and becoming a lawyer. I took the leap first in my family to pursue something outside of the medical profession. And decided that I loved being the advocate. I loved being the person who could give voice to those who just didn't have voice. And and so I went to Twolane Law School. So huge, you know, jump from being in New York to going all the way to Louisiana. And.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:05:32) I've never heard it described like that, but I've been to New Orleans a number of times. Not in recent memory, but like at least 12 times. And that sounds accurate, especially when you go to the quarter, but also other areas in New Orleans, too. You know, you go to Magazine Street, you go Yeah. Go up town, Midtown. Yeah, for sure.
Natalie Holder: (00:05:49) When I When I learned that Mardigra is an actual holiday, schools are closed, no mail is delivered, I thought that really is the diversity of experiences that we have in this country. And so I realized that I really did enjoy the employment element of law. So you know for fast forward worked for the New York City Commission on Human Rights. Fast forward worked for a law firm and realized that I was much better at educating people about their rights and responsibilities in the workplace as opposed to litigating them. And so I took a leap and started my own firm. At the time it was Quest Diversity Initiatives.
Natalie Holder: (00:06:40) You know, I pulled you into some of the work that we were doing. The goal was to make the work experiential. So there were these like dry trainings at the time where I just didn't find that there was a lot of connectivity where you'd go to these compliance trainings that were mandated by your employer. Remember those?
Ron Rapatalo: (00:07:01) They're awful.
Natalie Holder: (00:07:01) The quoteunquote diversity trainings and thought there's just no context to them for me. Like I I wasn't seeing the cases that were coming in front of me in case scenarios or in these training scenarios. So as a part of Quest diversity initiatives, the goal was to create role playing environments and where employees would be able to opine in real time. They were seeing, you know, uh you were one of my actors actually.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:07:33) Oh god, that's not Hopefully there's nowhere on the internet this is on video. Embarrassing Rod videos acting. God.
Natalie Holder: (00:07:44) I do remember you being quite compelling actually. We did a program at the New York City Bar Association. Don't know if you remember that one, but we had partners from Scatterenarfs. We had, you know, solo practitioners. We had a nice range of people who were on the DES as well as in the room.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:08:02) And I have an exquisite memory because I have to say I can barely remember what happened six months ago turning 50. That's amazing. You remember this stuff, Natalie. Oh, wow. That's why you're a lawyer. Okay. Sharp mind. Sharp memory.
Natalie Holder: (00:08:14) So, the things that really impact you, right, that sit with. And it's the people who show up for you. And you were one of those people who showed up at the time. And you know, the goal once again back then was to really make this work such that people really would start to, you know, connect with each other better in the workplaces. The goal was to create better workplace dynamics. Not places in where people understood the dos and don'ts, but really going that next level of not just understanding, all right, so here's what the law says, but let's also tease that out and see what does it feel like to work in this people dynamic? How does this really show up for people? And and so, you know, did that for a number of years, worked for, you know, a number of television networks, did some mediation for, you know, very popular television shows.
Natalie Holder: (00:09:20) Even did some training for, you know, I wouldn't share the names of the clients, but let's just say she had a good she had a good concert series last summer. And know just being able to once again create these spaces and where people look at employment law or even lawyers as being these buttoned up people who didn't understand how this work actually lands in the workplace. But then you know I had a colleague who kind of like you know pushed me and said yeah you're doing all this great stuff you think and you know being a chief diversity officer you don't understand what I'm going through because you've never held this role of being a chief diversity officer. Fascinating, huh?
Ron Rapatalo: (00:10:04) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:10:05) She pushed back really hard and she said, you know, a lot of the stuff that you share, it's wonderful in the moment, but when you leave the office, I then have to figure out how am I going to continue implementing. I now make realistic realistic. And I'll admit, Ron, that caught me off guard. And so I said, you know what? I've actually never held a chief diversity officer role. And so yours truly decided to raise her hand at the top.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:10:35) I was curious about where that pivot came for you to do CDO work, right? Because I mean, you're not the first or last brilliant black female lawyer who's done all the things to like move into a CDO role, but that pivotal conversation, I didn't I didn't know that it happened. Wow.
Natalie Holder: (00:10:53) Sometimes all it takes is a few words to really shift a moment, right? And you know, at the time, you know, my background of course is in compliance and I had two really great opportunities. Google was looking for their next, you know, director of compliance and US Capital Police was looking for their inaugural chief diversity officer. At the time, Michael Brown had just been killed in Ferguson, Missouri. Thought to myself, what would it look like had there been someone in that police department who was there to ask the questions, who was there to push back on policy, who was there to even initiate certain understandings about expectations, understandings, and biases. And even though I could probably be sitting in a much better financial space right now, I chose going with the opportunity with US capital.
Natalie Holder: (00:12:00) So yes, that was the the shift and I got to see firsthand what my colleague was talking about. There are a lot of great you know idealistic initiatives that we put out there as consultants that when you actually have to sit in the C-suite and sell init an initiative when you have to get buy in when you have to produce influence and let's just be real half the time people didn't really understand what is achieve diversity officer. Is this, you know, spin off from being the, you know, equal employment opportunity director? Is this someone who's more on the strategic side? And I'll admit, I took advantage of that. I built my own office. I went from being a budget of none in an office of, you know, only one to having a budget of over half million dollars, having a staff of four people reporting into me and physically having my own space. I mean, Ron, I'm I'll never forget The first day I went into work, they sat me in the bullpen surrounded by empty desks, big open area, and.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:13:21) Sorry, that's crazy. You have a chief level. What kind of chief level role would be get that? I mean, there's a that's that sounds super shady, but anyway, the.
Natalie Holder: (00:13:30) beauty of it though, the beauty of it though was that I luckily had a chief financial officer who was watching the dynamic. And he said, And after four days, he said, "This is not going to work". He said, "You will never be successful sitting out here". He said, "People are starting to, you know, build trust with you or want to build trust with you. They're interested in what you have to bring to this organization, but they're never going to be able to do it with you sitting out like this". Like you said, like you said, Ron, this is shady. And so, and so, Ron, he gave you his.
Natalie Holder: (00:14:14) He left his office and he he partnered up with someone else. So he was sharing an office with someone so that I could have my own office. And so I often share with people that it is so important for people to just sometimes even see not just to you know to you know advocate sometimes with your voice but sometimes to advocate with your actions.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:14:43) You and I in our green room talked about I feel like this is the good time to talk about allyship right because what that CFO did argue is allyship, right? You know allyship is not words. It's when I think of a definition that I remember hearing in, you know, post George Floyd's murder co era was being able to like hold on to like a flag pole. There was a particular like incident of our flag raising that I saw with like Confederate flag and literally I think a I think it was a I don't may not have the story correct so forgive me but it was it was a man, I believe a white man who basically held on to surprise surprise the black woman was holding on to the flag pole to make sure she wasn't taken off because she was trying to feel like why is there a confederate flag in my state? It's like literally when I think about allyship it's like are you putting your neck out on the line for someone? So I would love to hear Natalie from you in this regarded like that inflection point of that allyship from the CFO to say Natalie will never succeed unless I do something here and give her a risk. space. I'd love for you to talk about allyship for those of us who are in the space, have different levels of privileges, but also different levels of like things we can be offering to be able to support people who might who are more marginalized in these workplaces.
Natalie Holder: (00:16:11) Allyship really is that expenditure of your own comfort, your social, your, you know, human relation capital. for someone else's benefit. It's not easy being an ally. I think a lot of times people think, oh, you know, allyship is me saying, "Oh, Ron, I support you behind the scenes". But when it comes to being in a space where, you know, am I going to advocate for Ron? Am I going to make sure Ron is treated fairly? Am I going to make sure that Ron gets the resources and tools that he needs? That's really where the rubber meets the road. And I find that today, right now, like allyship is so critical and crucial. as we're watching, you know, you know, it's interesting. We use this term so often now that we're in unprecedented times that so much has changed right that, you know, there's so much uncertainty right now.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:17:16) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:17:17) This is really where many of us who do have that capital need to actually turn it in. We need to cash it in right now and use it for the benefit of someone else who really can use it. Now, of course, you don't just go do out your allyship to just any and everyone. But when you can see that there really is a wrong and a right side of history and if you're not being that advocate for that person who is going to be on that right side of history, shame on you. And I know that you know there's this whole notion not shame people but I actually do dig in and say actually yeah if you know better you should be doing better.
Natalie Holder: (00:18:02) And you know that CFO in that moment really sat in his office and lived a comfortable life. He could have said you know it's uncomfortable for me me to pack office of you know 20 years to have to move it down the hall so I can somebody else. That physically was difficult for him but it didn't matter because he saw the greater necessity and the greater good in it and I'll be honest with you it won him my loyalty forever and ever. And so you know right now as we're looking at.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:18:41) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:18:42) People who are making comments and statements that you know truly are offensive.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:18:50) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:18:51) Question is, you know, how and where do we step up? I think a lot of times we think, oh, you know, let's talk to the individual who's being hurt and say, "Oh, I feel so bad for you". I don't care how bad you feel for me. You know, in that moment, I need you to take action. I need you to actually do something to make the in to make the environment better. I'll give you an example. So, I sit, you know, I I sit on my school's PTA and I live in Burran, Maryland, Montgomery County to be.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:20:00) Yeah. I Okay, I know this is going.
Natalie Holder: (00:20:01) And uh you know and I had my first taste of you know suburban suburban schools recently when you know right now we're having this boundary discussion. Of course the boundaries are now being pushed in where there are more people moving into the area. So the schools are you know reaching capacities that they've never reached before. And of course as you're zoning. There are schools that are well poised to always do well and there are the schools that are not so well performing. And schools that are often not so well performing are the schools and you probably can fill in the blank on that one are the schools that have more people of color who are black and brown.
Natalie Holder: (00:20:53) And so, you know, during the first round of the boundary discussion, pardon me, there was this person who got on this WhatsApp group for all the parents who was very adamant and said, said we should not be talking about diversity. Let diversity be the last thing that even comes up in this conversation. We need to focus on academic rigor. We need to focus on, you know, how we want to make sure our children are taken care of in our making sure that they're performing well because right now we are zoned. I'm in the place that's zoned for the number one or the number three high school in all of Maryland. And people don't want to lose that. People buy their homes in this community just for that reason. And.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:21:49) That's a straight up fight. Yep. That's.
Natalie Holder: (00:21:51) not dragout. So, the first time around, I'll admit I didn't say much because I felt like as a new member of the PTA, I wanted to see what the parents were thinking and feeling. Well, guess we got back the first round of, you know, results and we got what we wanted where we're still zoned for all these wonderful schools. However, they're now splitting our children up. The children who are currently in school in elementary school are going to be going to different middle schools. They're going to different high schools. The county heard us talk about academic rigor, but they didn't hear us talk about community. They didn't hear us talk about inclusion and the need to stay connected. So, this is where I finally said, you know, look, let me step in and talk about here's some language that we might want to start leading with because a lot of the parents were like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that they're going to split our children up, the articulations, you know, have us moving. And I said, okay, here's a way that we can, you know, start to have the county understand that we care about this. This gentleman comes on and says, I completely disagree. Diversity we should not fall for this false argument of diversity and I quote you. He said diversity countrywide means black Hispanic and poverty and in parenthesis farms. And I got this flood of private messages from people who said oh my gosh doing this I'm so sorry that this is happening but not one person actually spoke up and said follow the play and so another parent actually you know decided Okay, well, let's change a topic onto new topics. And I said, no, we're not doing this in this in this forum. And I actually for a moment said, okay, is it worth it for me to put my neck out there and for me to be that person who will be seen, you know.
Natalie Holder: (00:23:44) You know, angry Natalie? But I said, you know, if I don't speak up, I'm basically co-signing what's happened. And so I said, Ashley, no, I don't think that we need to be going on to the next topic. Understand this. If this kind of rhetoric which is unwelcoming and which is you know quite contrary to what we're saying are the expectations we have for our children much less for ourselves as parents I'm getting out of this group and guess what I'm taking my social capital because guess what? I don't just sit on the PTA. I am the executive vice president of the PTA so I sit in rooms and where I can't call shots I set up my own table thank you very much. Dropped the mic and I was out. All these parents said oh my gosh we ejected the guy from the group please come back. And I said to myself and my son said, "Mommy, please go back. You've made change. Mommy, you you made a change. Look at what you've done". And I'll admit, Ron, I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I'll go back in that room. But a number of the reached out to me privately and they said, "We saw what was happening and everyone agreed with you, but we just didn't know what to say. We didn't know how to actually speak up". And here's the here's the issue with allyship, right? It does take that courage to say I don't cosign with what's being said. Understand this. I've sat in the C-suite where I've seen people stand up for their colleagues and often times it is you know their colleagues who they feel some affinity toward. But I've seen them stand up for their colleagues who came to meetings that were not that in where they were not prepared. They've come to meetings in where they didn't know what they should have been talking about. And you know when someone actually pressed on them, there was a voice saying, you know, let's protect this individual. But when it comes to culture, when it comes to race, when it comes to any sort of, you know, you know, any sort of dimension of diversity, that's where people clam up and get very scared.
Natalie Holder: (00:25:56) And environment, I think it's important that we be honest with ourselves as to whether or not are you truly an ally or are you going to cosign with what's happening? And I said to those parents and I and I say that to everyone actually on my YouTube channel I do have a video that talks about what inclusive leaders do when you do see bullying what do inclusive leaders do when you see ostracism? It's really simple. You interrupt. You disrupt it. You say something as simple as I don't agree with that. I think that that runs a foul of our values. More importantly, you say how get us anywhere.
Natalie Holder: (00:26:50) I think one of the best examples of allyship that I ever saw saw or ever heard of was a woman who was interview who I interviewed for my book many years ago. I wrote a book called Exclusion strategies for increasing or sorry strategies for improving not increasing strategies for improving diversity in recruitment retention and promotion. And there was this young law associate. She came from the Dominican Republic. Okay. And she was working on a deal late at night with a bunch of attorneys both opposing counsel and her own partner. And you know the opposing council started make fun of her last name. It was a Spanish sounding last name and he started to play around with it in a way that could have gone in a very adverse way sexually. Her partner stepped up and said, "Would your mother be proud of you for doing that? Come on, cut it out. Let's get back to work". It was that simple. The guy never did it again. And that associate felt like she was protected in that moment. Not that she needed the protection of a man, but the idea that she felt as though she was not alone on the island. And you know what? I will, you know, sit with that for a moment and say that allies partly protecting someone else, letting them know that they're not by themselves because I think that's sometimes the issue that some of us have when weating for ourselves or when we're advocating for a position.
Natalie Holder: (00:28:38) It's am I alone on this? You know, is it me or is really something that needs or should be addressed?
Ron Rapatalo: (00:28:55) All right, let me keep it real. A lot of us have write a book in our goals list, maybe for years. I sure did. Good news is there's more than one way to get it done. If you've got more money than time, a ghostwriter can help bring your story to life. If you got more time than money, a great book coach can guide you through the process step by step. If you already written the thing, you'll want someone to shepherd you through publishing so you don't waste time or cash. Here's the thing, though. No matter how you do it, the real win is writing the right book. The one that builds your credibility, grows your business, and actually makes a difference. That's the team at Books That Matter is all about. Head to books that matter.org and get some feedback in your idea or manuscript. Don't sit on it any longer. Your book could be exactly what the world needs.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:30:00) I mean, Natalie, you're obviously so fluent, have a depth of expertise on the workplace, especially around inclusion efforts, right? And how allyship shows up to make sure that because inclusion in a policy doesn't mean inclusion happens, right? You still need the allyship and people will understand the differences in power across the multitude of identities to like if you see something wrong, say something, right? And and protect and you know, so I want to go back to something earlier in the conversation, right? Cuz for me, when you talked about how you made the jump from doing workplace law to being a CDO, I wonder if there was a moment you mentioned you were too lane and you were going to, you know, you going to be just a lawyer, but you realized that workplace law and like doing that was was there a particular person or aha moment that got you to realize this is where I need to be. I tell people don't go to law school until you know how you're going to use the degree. And for graduate school in general, don't spend your money on graduate school until you know what you're going to do with the degree. I'm not saying you have to have a 100% blueprint or, you know, plan as to how you're going to navigate everything.
Natalie Holder: (00:31:34) But I do believe that at least 50% of your, you know, matriculating should be an understanding of, okay, so this is where I can see myself using this degree because these degrees are expensive. I went into law school and they no scholarships. I mean, you paid out of pocket or a loan some. I I did not have a clear sense of, you know, did I want to be a litigator? Did I want to be on the corporate side dealing with contracts all day? I I didn't even have that frame of mind. I must say that it was my first job working for the commission on human rights and I will tell you I was miserable in that role. I thought I should have been at a big white shoe law firm but instead here I am working for the city thinking oh my gosh how has my life come to this.
Natalie Holder: (00:32:56) But I always tell people every role that you're in you're in that role to pull something out of that experience that you're going to use at a time when you don't even realize it's going to become valuable. I'll just you know, for one second just segue and say that work I was doing back at the commission. That work actually has been helpful for me working with AI companies that are trying to figure out Oh, yeah. AI companies that are trying to figure out how to make sure that they can work with commissions on human rights across the country because almost every state has a commission on human rights.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:33:43) Fascinating.
Natalie Holder: (00:33:43) Needs complaints of employment, housing, and public accommodation discrimination. and sometimes even financial issues are under the places of a commission of human rights. And right now many of those commissions of human rights because at the federal level that work has somewhat changed. You know there have been you know shakeups in terms of staffing.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:34:11) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:34:12) The states are now being hit with more work now that the department of education has been you know for the most part dismantled.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:34:25) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:34:26) Yeah. Estimated and you know they're dismantling many of the responsibilities that's now being shifted to many of the commissions on human rights. And so now, you know, it used to be that it would take you, let's say, six weeks to get in to see an investigator from the Commission on Human Rights. You're now looking at six months. It's a every resident in this.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:34:55) because of your experience, people are like wanting to leverage your expertise while they're waiting.
Natalie Holder: (00:34:59) No, no, no. So, it's AI companies that are trying to help that are trying to figure out how do they get into these commissions on human rights to help them move being a six month weight list to now a weight list. because all of you know I don't want to you know trademark secrets but you know there there's a way quite honestly in where AI can be a big partner to the commission on human rights. And so while I was at the commission on human rights I noticed that I started getting a lot of the employment cases and I became the go-to person if you wanted to settle an employment case if you.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:35:48) that's how okay.
Natalie Holder: (00:35:50) Yeah. If you wanted to you know you wanted to make sure that you actually got a really good deal on making sure that you had a really good complaint. That was me. And so the passion for me was understanding that your ability to work. I mean, when you think about Maslo's hierarchy of needs, that's one of your, you know, safety needs. That's one of your physiology.
Natalie Holder: (00:36:20) Without the ability to work, you oftentimes don't have housing. You oftentimes don't have access to great education. If is a determinant of so many other social factors and so%.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:36:38) yes.
Natalie Holder: (00:36:39) I I'm a I'm a big believer that we have a right to work and to protect that right is valuable. And so that I think has been my mission protecting you know the ability to work and it means also when I'm on the management side so don't get me wrong Ron I've been that person who's been counsel to the employee so I've been a plaintiff side attorney but I've also been on the management side representing the company.
Natalie Holder: (00:37:16) And I tell you being on the imagine side sometimes is even more powerful because I'm able to impact policies before they even hit people.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:37:30) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:37:31) I'm able to actually say look let's coach and counsel on this issue as opposed to doing something that could be detrimental to someone's career their capability to earn a living.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:37:41) Yeah. So Natalie, you obviously have such a strong sense of justice. This comes through in having this episode recorded with you and wondering for the audience like where in your story do you think that comes from? Is there I imagine it's not just one moment, right? So, I'm not asking you for the just this moment per se, right? Because I don't think there's a moment like that per se, but I'm wondering how you weave it through your story and the values you learned particularly growing up where the sense of justice comes from because it is strong, Natalie. I know people No, but in a really powerful way, right? You it this doesn't like you didn't just find in the Commission of Human Rights like these employment cases because you were just technically brilliant at it. Like if you were so passionate about this, that's why I asked this question because this this comes from something I'm really curious about.
Natalie Holder: (00:38:43) You're not going to believe this, but.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:38:45) Okay, try me.
Natalie Holder: (00:38:47) I was a playground bully.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:38:50) Say more. See, this is why Oh, this this is this the Okay.
Natalie Holder: (00:38:59) I was overweight as a kid. and I was taller than most of my peers. Now, all of that changed when I got to like middle school, but from third grade to sixth grade, I was one of the tallest and I was one of the heaviest students in my school. And I wasn't the kind of bully that beat you up for your lunch money. I was actually the bully who would protect the individuals who were not being protected by their friends. I was that person who would come to the aid of others. You know, I was that person who yeah, felt as though it's important to make sure that no one is mistreated. So, I I was a bully in that sense in where if I didn't believe that you were doing the right thing, Big Natalie was coming after you.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:40:02) How would you say that's then impacted like if you were to like take the lessons that young Natalie had there to Natalie today? Like what do you think you learn from that? What sounds like a little bit of a protecting experience, but I imagine without like I'm interpreting that if you were the arbiter of justice, there are times you may have leaned in directions that may not have been really protecting per se, right? Because you're a kid. How do you always know, right? Because you don't. And so I'm curious about Natalie in this spot. You look back at that young Natalie like What did you learn from that that allows you to bring your sense of justice today?
Natalie Holder: (00:40:53) So, believe it or not, I believe in prot I believe in surrounding yourself with good people.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:41:03) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:41:04) I believe that it's important in any environment to make sure that you are protected by people who have your best interest at heart. And I would even go one step further when I say that I was a bully. I was that person who oftentimes was protecting the other girls on the playground.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:41:31) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:41:32) Because sometimes the boys would get a bit rough and I was that person who would step in and make sure that the boys weren't, you know, taking advantage. I mean, I'll remember, you know, knocking someone's tooth out because.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:41:50) I couldn't imagine you. Oh my god. W you feisty. Come on.
Natalie Holder: (00:42:01) Okay. But, you know, it's a matter of making sure that you are very clear. You're very clear about who you're surrounding yourself with and you know, and I would say that that's something that still, you know, impacts me today. I make sure that I always I always tell people it's important to have like your own personal board of directors. I mean, quite honestly, when you stop and think about it, like by law, every publicly traded corporation has to have a board of directors in order to protect the financial interests of the shareholders. If you don't have a board of directors, who's protecting your interests? Who's protecting your interest in your goals? And so, I think it's valuable, invaluable to have and to pick and choose the people who are going to be in your, you know, your orbit. The people who you can quickly, you know, have on speed dial in a moment of need who can provide that information and that advice and counsel. You know, sometimes if you're not able to read the room, making sure that you have that person who understands where your blind spots are.
Natalie Holder: (00:43:30) And can possibly give you different perspective. And so I I think that that's, you know, that's a takeaway from those times because many times I would see children who were just, you know, being children and they were walking into environments that I could see were not good for them.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:43:53) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:43:54) You know, and so, you know, I'd even say like the corollary to now it's that, you know, as we are dealing with uncertainty, as we are dealing with, you know, time that is unprecedented in our country, as we are dealing with, you know, the eraser of many institutes that were institutions for us.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:44:19) Yes.
Natalie Holder: (00:44:20) It's important to surround ourselves, you know, with people who are going to support us, people who, and I'm not saying people who are going to tell us yes all the time. Right? You know, my board of directors push us back really hard sometimes and they'll say, "Natalie, we don't think you did this one right or Natalie, we think you should do this, you know, different way or here's our opinion on this". I think it's important that you do have people, however, who you can go to to have that convers ation of trust with you know I'd even say Ron that you know especially as we're dealing with uncertainty it's really important that you know we support that we surround ourselves with c you know certain people so I'll even go specifics with you and where my personal board of directors I always make sure that I have three people on speed dial.
Natalie Holder: (00:45:22) I have an employment lawyer. I have someone in finance. And I have someone in human resources. because professionally those are people who can help me work the numbers. Those are people who can help me understand, you know, what's the dynamic that I'm not understanding. And those are the people who know where the bodies are and know how to help me find them. I would say that in times I'd highly encourage people to make sure that they do have an employment lawyer in their back pocket that they at least have someone that they can bounce ideas off of because sometimes we do walk in with a sense of righteousness that I know that my rights were violated. I hate to tell you this, Ron, 90% of the time when I was at the Commission on Human Rights, I'd have to share with people that no, your case does not, you know, meet our jurisdictional requirements that you really were against based on a dimension of diversity, but instead you were mistreated. Is it, you know, you know, potentially a violation of a code of conduct? Maybe. But is it a violation of law? No. So having that employment lawyer is so helpful now where you can bounce those ideas off of and I'd say also Having a coach as a friend. Coaching is expensive.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:46:50) I've heard from a dear friend called Ron Rapatalo that uh it can be expensive. Yeah, it's totally agree there. I I love how you're teeing this up because you must have read my book to plug myself, leverage the people who love and care about you personally, professionally, building a circle of champions, right? And the fact that surprise surprise, Natalie, with like the level that you've gotten to, you wouldn't be able to sustain and maintain where you are without having at first the board of director. So I love that you're dropping the kinds of people that you're advising mean the audience to have at our disposal. Employment lawyer I did hit up NYU alum extraordinaire too like you Jamal Oerweat. I asked him for some advice and God bless he gave me some pretty unfiltered direct advice. I was like.
Natalie Holder: (00:47:45) I mean it's it's important in my opinion to get the heart from people who you trust.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:47:50) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:47:52) And to get the that you need. Like I said, right now many of us are in uncharted territory.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:48:00) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:48:01) Why go it alone? It's not worth it in my opinion.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:48:04) Yeah. So, Natalie, the. Oh, yeah. You had an incoming call. We can cut that out. I'll make sure that I note it.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:48:15) So, I have a second to last question to ask you before we ask you the inevitable rendering question, right? And so, something we talked about in our preg green room was utilizing your expertise in employment law to talk about the current situation and advice you'd have that I'm seeing in the job market, particularly where I sit, particularly the social impact world and specifically K12 ed layoffs, concepts like job hugging people that are, I think, unhappy but not able to financially or or other reasons to go on the market to find something because the average that I've read is 6 months. that feels even more at times, you know, for the roles. And so I'm seeing folks who are been laid off thinking they may be laid off. I think more is coming in the social impact sector, particularly nonprofits across across the country, right? There's more of this is happening and how it's happening might not always go well, right? So I'm wondering from your lens, both a combination of like career advice, but employer employment law advice you would have for folks who have either going through it think that it might happen without it necessarily being something like there's a legal case that they think that they have right because obviously in your role I'm not asking for legal advice this is more well what uh kind of tips and lessons would Natalie share with our audience.
Natalie Holder: (00:49:46) This is just and this is just information sharing similar to a continuing legal education program similar to you know any sort of just information that's you know shared through a white paper. I'm sharing information with you and your audience today. With that you know I would say that there are two book ends to this as people are being laid off I think that people should feel should actually know people should know that you do have the ability to negotiate your severance. A lot of times people don't negotiate their severance. They take what's given to them. They think that you know this is the off that's been made by the company and you just take it. However, you're in a position in where you're leaving an organization in where they want you to sign a general release because remember, every time you get a severance package, there's that general release that they want you to sign and you're actually in a position in where you could ask for a few more weeks of severance and where you could ask for, you know, an adjustment to how your healthc care coverage is being handled. You could ask for, you know, terms like a non-disparagement clause to make sure that as you're leaving, you don't say anything bad about the organization and they don't say anything bad about you. There are elements that people can put into their severance packages. And you know, I always say that it it should be done authentically and you know, I do believe that you do ask for things that are reasonable. And when I say authentically, I mean that you're asking for things that are reasonable.
Natalie Holder: (00:51:24) But that is a possibility, right? And that's employment lawyers. That's why I say have a good employment lawyer on call because that person can look through your agreement and actually help you to negotiate something that might be a little bit more favorable to you.
Natalie Holder: (00:51:41) But on the other end of it, you have people who are leaving jobs and getting new jobs. So as you're leaving your former employment and you're thinking, "Oh my gosh, it's going to take me 6 months to a year to find that new job". You will find that when you do find that new job, understand that as a part of your onboarding, you can also negotiate your exit package at that time. It creates it creates a sense of no one being surprised at the end when your employment ends. Like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this person's asking for this. No, on the front end, you're actually asking for it. I actually worked for an organization that put into our administrative guide what you were going to get upon separation. Companies do it all the time. As an individual, you can also do that because it, like I said, it takes out that level of not knowing for.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:52:43) what it's going to look like when you leave the organization. Have you seen examples of that in the K12 ed nonprofit world where you can negotiate an e I've never heard of it being done so I'm curious.
Natalie Holder: (00:52:56) being done you never hear about things being done and where there like I said there are few people who are privy to these sort of strategies. So it's happening.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:53:13) I just don't know about it because ain't nobody telling me and I don't Yeah, you right. Okay. I find your smile like Simpleton Ron Rapatalo like of course it's happening. Got.
Natalie Holder: (00:53:23) You know. I saw. And I and I put it out there like this. So when people hear that they're oh my gosh but that's that just sounds so antagonistic and where oh my gosh how do I ask for my exit.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:53:41) for bringing that up. Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:53:42) I'm le as I'm you know joining an organization. Doesn't that make me seem like I'm not loyal? As I said there are companies that want that assurance of knowing what is it going to cost them for you to leave. And so if you're actually having this conversation on the front end and where you're taking out that element of surprise, who doesn't like the element of surprise being taken out of a negotiation? The worst thing is to be, you know, blindsided by something. The best thing to actually understand up front. Now, once again, it has to be done tactfully. It has to be done in a way that is Yeah. in a way in where there's, you know, something in it for both the individual or organization, but it has been done. It it is being done.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:54:33) Quick pause in the action here. I know a lot of us leaders, entrepreneurs, folks just trying to do good work and felt that grind of pushing a boulder uphill by ourselves. What I learned is you don't actually have to do it all alone. Genius Discovery Program at Thought Leader Path like having a think tank in your corner. It's not some cookie cutter formula. about your story, your plan of impact, giving you the clarity and assets to take the next big step. I've seen people go through this and walk out with their voices amplified, ideas sharpened, some even launching podcasts like this one, Ronda. So, if you're tired of grinding in the dark, you're ready to step into your impact with right support, check out geniusiscovery.org.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:55:36) That's good to know. And when people talk, I might need to like tap you at some point with all the kind of informal coaching that I do cuz sometimes people at these situations. And so we could probably talk for another hour on all of these things in the workplace, right? Because I think offline I want to keep continue picking your brain on that because I'm enough in that world and the talent and the talent acquisition world that I hear lots of things and see lots of things. So without further ado, Natalie, what's your rendering? What's the lesson or value you want to share today with the audience?
Natalie Holder: (00:56:19) Oh, that's such a good question. So I think just to wrap it up.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:56:24) Yeah.
Natalie Holder: (00:56:25) You know, it's a matter of stepping up for others when and where you can. That allyship notion. It's the protecting yourself by way of having really good thought leaders around you. And I'd even add the third element. It's don't be afraid to build something. If you currently are that job hugger, you're hugging something that's of value to somebody. So, a lot of times when people hear that they're being.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:56:59) Love the way you frame that. Thank you. Okay.
Natalie Holder: (00:57:01) You know, so many times when people, you know, get laid off, they think, "Oh my Gosh, the world is crumbling around me." But they're not actually thinking, wow, but I actually did something valuable for an organization for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. That is a skill set that has marketability. I'm a big believer in as you're hugging that job, also think about what could you or how could you monetize what you're doing. I'm not saying that you're going to moonlight and I'm not saying that you're, you know, starting your side hustle, even though I do have a course called, you know, smart strategies for starting your side hustle. It's a matter of understanding what and how can you do with the skills that you're gathering today, right, to create your own path tomorrow.
Natalie Holder: (00:57:57) And you know, I have always found that people I mean, once again, something that's always happening in the workplace, Ron, I had an officer, a capital police, who might have had 10 jobs. He had 10 different businesses.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:58:14) Hello.
Natalie Holder: (00:58:15) I kid you not. He had a candle making company. He did party promotions, you name it. It went on and on. And he was probably one of our best officers. Why? Because came to work not because he had to. He came to work because he wanted to. And so I find that people who actually have that side endeavor, if they're doing it right, they are some of your most loyal employees because they're still showing up to work because they really enjoy the work that they're doing. And so that's my.
Ron Rapatalo: (00:58:53) I love the way that you frame that, right? Because often times the side hustle is seen as something where you're not being loyal and able to give quoteunquote 100% to your full-time place of employment, right? But I would argue it's the opposite. That's my own experience, right? Having a side hustle of my coaching and other things. It's what gives me passion and joy on top of the thing that also like I'm doing full-time. So for me, why don't we live in this more both end world is always a thing.
Natalie Holder: (00:59:22) Oh, absolutely. And and of course, you're going to make sure that you're not violating any conflicts of interest. You're going to that your employee policy to make sure that you know that if there are any rules against moonlighting that you have cleared that however once all of that has been cleared and of course you're going to continue giving your all. I mean look, I have a colleague who she has an employee who has like a side hustle and it's a professional work environment in where people are in offices. However, she'll take Zoom calls from the hair shop where she's side hustling and it's like, "No, no, the optics are all wrong". Yes, you might seem like you're completely there in the meeting, but you know, when you're showing that you're braiding somebody's hair in the back, yeah, that's not exactly showing that you're 100%, you know, on task your main hustle. So, once again, it's all a matter of like how do you structure it?
Ron Rapatalo: (01:00:23) Well, thank you, Natalie. Last but not least, how do people find you? What do you want to promote?
Natalie Holder: (01:00:30) Thank you, Ron. So, I would love for people to continue the conversation with me. I have a website called Quest. So it's Quest EI. So Q E sorry Q U S T EI.org R. I also am on LinkedIn. So feel free to look me up Natalie Holder. Equ. And I've got the YouTube channel. So I know that a number of companies, a number of individuals have had their budgets cut. You know the.
Ron Rapatalo: (01:01:08) I don't know a single one that hasn't. So I mean yes.
Natalie Holder: (01:01:10) You know job title changes to no longer having a healthy budget. I wanted to make sure that, you know, individuals who were still in a space where they were building belonging and culture that they could still have access to training and development resources for themselves as well as their teams. And I also wanted to make sure that people who are starting their side hustle, people who are starting to build small businesses, that they also have some of the resources that they need to make sure that they're staying out of expensive legal issues on the the back end.
Natalie Holder: (01:01:50) There's the YouTube channel that has, you know, a library of videos. So, it's QUEST Employment Initiatives, LLC.
Ron Rapatalo: (01:01:58) Okay. Natalie, you are a treasure trove. Thank you for being a friend. Yes, I did quote Golden Girls. Thank you for your the allyship you've demonstrated in your career and your friendship to me. It matters a lot. So, thank you for being on Ronderings. And I'm going to quote One of my favorite heroes, Dion Sanders, is saying, "We always come in hot with amazing guests like Natalie Holder". Thank you, Ronda's audience. Talk to you later.
Natalie Holder: (01:02:30) Thanks, Ron.
Ron Rapatalo: (01:02:32) Thanks. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Ronderings with Natalie Holder. I hope her wisdom on allyship, care transitions, and building your personal board of directors sparks something in you. A reminder, we all have the power to make our spaces more inclusive and our leadership more human. If this conversation resonated, share with someone who'd appreciate it. Keep the dialogue going. Till next time, keep reflecting, keep connecting, and keep rendering. Peace.
Ron Rapatalo: (01:03:13) Before we wrap, I've got to give a huge shout out to the crew that helps make Ronderings come alive every week, podcasts that matter. Their mission, simple but powerful. Every great idea deserves a voice. So, if you've been sitting on that spark of a show or story, don't over think it just start. Head to podcastmatter.com and let their team bring your vision to life. Till next time, keep rounding, keep growing, keep sharing your voice with the world. Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Rathering. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep wandering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.