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Building a business is tough. It takes grit, never-ending days, missed family birthdays, and more coffee than you thought it was possible to drink.
Unfortunately, many business operators do all of this and see initial success but then - crickets! They hit a plateau or, worse, fall off the cliff entirely.
This is The Business OS, a show powered by JustCall dedicated to ensuring that you don't get lost in that Bermuda Triangle of irrelevance.
Join us as we talk to entrepreneurs, business leaders, and real-world operators - folks who know your struggles better than anyone else. They are also the ones with the knowledge and playbooks to help you succeed. Through candid conversations with our guests, we make sure you’ll walk away with actionable takeaways to help you think ahead and pivot fast.
True, building a business is tough - and you have to hustle. But it does get easier when you have a Business OS.
Kari Yuers [00:00:00]:
Trust is kind of a thread for taking risk because taking risk is really kind of putting yourself into the unknown, feeling it's the right thing to do, or knowing that there's going to be a net. And I think that thread of trusting yourself and trusting others can be really powerful around the risks that we all endure. Risks of running businesses, risks of investing, risks of. But it's about earning and developing trust and being able to throw yourself out there.
Kushal Kakkar [00:00:35]:
This is The Business OS, a conversation powered by JustCall, dedicated to giving you the tools and knowledge needed to win your business. Business relationships can be tough to navigate at the best of times. Now, add family to the mixed and the complexity goes up so much more. But our guest today is pretty adept at maneuvering those challenges with a light touch and a sense of humor. And she's been doing it for decades while being a woman in a very male dominated industry. She began her career as a teenager, working the summers in her father's factory, labeling pails and sweeping the floor. And while you won't see those experiences listed on her LinkedIn profile, she learned valuable lessons about the family business that would serve her really well when she joined the company in 1991 and then took over as its president and CEO ten years later. Today, she has taken the Vancouver based family operation into an international organization with offices and distribution in over 50 countries.
Kushal Kakkar [00:01:34]:
She also serves as the board director for Export Development Canada and is a strong and uncompromising advocate for sustainability in business. She's also someone I look up to very much and have the good fortune of calling my good friend. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming the president and CEO of Kryton International, Kari, yours, Kari. So good to have you here. Welcome to the show.
Kari Yuers [00:01:59]:
Thanks, Kushal. I'm very thrilled to be here. So thanks so much for inviting me.
Kushal Kakkar [00:02:04]:
Sure thing. And Kari, before we sort of jump into, you know, the details of your prolific career, really tell us a little bit more about Kryton, how it came to be and where it was when you took over.
Kari Yuers [00:02:15]:
Okay, thanks, Kushal. Our company was started by my father in 1973, raw newers. And he saw a need for building products that would really last the test of time. Things that wouldn't just temporarily waterproof concrete, but would grow into the concrete and be a permanent part for dozens, if not hundreds of years. And so with the help of a chemist, him and the chemists worked together to build what is now known globally as our crystal technology. And that technology's been used to treat concrete, repair concrete, and eventually to be used as an additive into concrete to make it permanently waterproof, which he did in the later seventies, but took hold in the early eighties. So we really invented the first crystalline waterproofing admixture ever available in the world. And then when I joined the company in 1991, I saw that we had projects like the Boeing Aircraft company and other major projects done, but people that had no idea about this technology.
Kari Yuers [00:03:26]:
And so that's really where I kind of cut my teeth on spending time with architects and engineers and educating people on concrete technology and how the crystal internal membrane, or what's known as Kim admixture, could be added to give long term durability and replace membranes, which typically are at their best performance when they're first applied and deteriorate tilting fail. So I really like the idea of let's build it right, let's build it so that it lasts the test of time. And we're working on projects now globally that have design lives 100, 200, 250 years and can help them. Just lets do a little bit now and get long term gain for our future generations.
Kushal Kakkar [00:04:15]:
Kari, you clearly gained a lot of deep technical expertise over the 30 plus years, I believe, of working with Kryton and really leading it. And construction in itself is, of course, extremely male dominated for the most part, although, you know, we do see things changing everywhere. But, for instance, there are so many pictures of you online, you know, being the sole woman, or maybe, you know, one of very few women in a sea of men wearing hard hats in your signature powder blue sort of power suit. Right. How did you navigate that dynamic, especially as a known woman, really, especially in the earlier years, right, when you were still sort of honing into the role?
Kari Yuers [00:04:55]:
One of the great things about being part of ACI is you get to be around other like minded people who enjoy learning about concrete. And in doing so, it helped me build even a bigger network of people who I could learn from. And I think then the fact that you're a woman might be tested at the beginning, because it's kind of daunting to enter a committee meeting where it's all Menda, all Wilderman. I mean, I was the youngest there for, I looked around and I'm like, he's actually the youngest by probably 20 years, and I'm the only woman. It's, it's kind of weird, but, you know, they would test me and try to not help me. But I think eventually you, you win some fans because you just stick to, instead of playing the games, you just stick to doing the work. And if you do the work and I think that's what I've always said to other young women, just get in and learn your stuff and do the work and don't get caught up in the drama. And if you do that, eventually you win people who try to help you along the way.
Kushal Kakkar [00:06:07]:
Yeah, that sounds like a great philosophy to have to honestly sort of be in it for the passion that you have for the job to be done and really put your head down and focus on that, really and just going back a little bit. Kryton, of course, at some point was at least started off somewhere as a family owned business, right? Did you always know that you were going to join the family business or did it happen along the way?
Kari Yuers [00:06:32]:
Well, isn't that funny? Because my brother and I were sweeping floors and labeling pails as kids during the summers, right? Because our parents were going to have us sitting at home doing nothing. We had to come into the plant and do stuff. And so we always swore we were going to get an education so we could do anything but work in the family business. So our parents never expected us to be in the business at all. But then later I was working other jobs and I thought, you know, I could really help Creighton. I could come back and do something because I think the technology is great and I think there's more I could do to help. And so I came in and started doing the technical calls for the company, engineering calls, presentations, that type of thing, as a technical person. So, yeah, it's been quite a journey having the family dynamic and making sure that in those early years that we could share kind of our different points of view.
Kari Yuers [00:07:26]:
Right. Because I had a different vision than my father. And I think family businesses have a challenging time reconciling that not all family members want the same thing. So how do you ensure that there's sustainability in the family and that you're pulling or rowing in the same direction, even though you have maybe a different point of view on things. So that was, I think, some of the earlier, I wouldn't call them challenges, but they were definitely opportunities for me as a new leader to galvanize the family into a direction that we all felt was the right way to go.
Kushal Kakkar [00:08:08]:
Yeah. And I think both of you sort of brings me to my next question, right. Which is really around the fact that you scale up the company from being largely family owned and definitely smaller in scale at that time to becoming an international organization over time. And like you said, your brother and other folks, obviously in the company as well, were a part of that journey. What were the biggest challenges that you faced in that entire growth journey and how did you really overcome them? Because I feel like that would be really valuable for people who are running similar businesses and have the ambition of really running their company as well.
Kari Yuers [00:08:44]:
Yeah, I think when I think about the early days, the early days was just having enough cash to pay the bank for the building, to pay the suppliers, to pay payroll, and then hopefully have enough money to pay myself at the end. And actually, I ended up earning out my shares of the company early in my career because there was months where I didn't have enough money to pay everybody, and so I didn't pay myself. But I think that's a real realistic challenge. I mean, you know, if you're not putting something on your credit card, you're, you're trying to figure out, well, how do I make, you know, it's in a, in tough, in business environments, getting enough cash in the door and cash flow, I learned early, is king. You know, you can, you can make profits and you can make revenues, but if you don't have cash, you go out of business. And so I think a lot of businesses run out of cash in some of the best years they've ever had. It's not usually the worst years. It's, they use up cash faster than they, they got it.
Kari Yuers [00:09:39]:
They got it available, and that can really hamper a company. So I think that's over the years. Those are always the challenges, is managing cash, making sure that you can pay for things. I also didn't like to take on a lot of debt early. I wanted to make the money, so I had the money, so I had the flexibility to do the things that I'd like to do. And so I think I was very conservative, but I think that's also a challenge. I think people feel like, jeez, if we don't grow really fast, we're going to be left behind. So that is definitely a challenge, I think, for a lot of businesses.
Kari Yuers [00:10:13]:
How fast is the right rate to grow? How much do you invest? How many people do you bring on all at once? Those are definitely challenges I think every company has to deal with at some point or another.
Kushal Kakkar [00:10:26]:
Just talking a little bit more about the family dynamic, perhaps take us through the things that you would have had to consider while running a business that a leader of a typical business would not really be thinking about.
Kari Yuers [00:10:40]:
Okay, that's a really good question. I think that one thing that family businesses afford is a long term view, and I think that's definitely one of the strengths of a yemenite family businesses. We can take a very long term view on initiatives or strategies. And unlike public companies that have to ensure that the quarterly results are there, so that sometimes decisions can be made to happen that are serving short term results, but to the sacrifice, it may be long term. So what I found was fortunate for me is I could have a longer term view on developing market. So things like developing the Kim market, that didn't happen overnight. You don't just suddenly walk in and say, hey, we have this innovative admixture that if you add it to your concrete, you can replace the membrane and all your problems go away. It's not a miracle product.
Kari Yuers [00:11:34]:
You still have to get people to use it properly and use jointing materials properly and place the concrete properly. And then there's that adoption, the, you know, the tipping point of where people start to say, hey, this is a viable way. But leading up to that, it's very slow. So you have to be able to fund your growth with other things during that time. And so I was able to have a long term view on Kim and its place in the world and its place in the building codes and so forth, and work literally decade, decades to get that commercialization. Whereas I think in many companies, if you're not showing revenue and double digit profitability growth much sooner, some of those initiatives might be put into the trash can. So I feel that I was very fortunate that I had an opportunity to do that, but also a family that was backing that. This is the right play.
Kari Yuers [00:12:37]:
It's going to take some time and investment in time and money, and we did that. Even coming to India was one of those initiatives. It was the early nineties when my father had an eye to, hey, we should be doing more in Asia. But certainly India and in 1996, opened Kryton Bilmat in New Delhi and built the factory. And we've been there, you know, ever since. That's, you know, was that 28 years now through thick? And then when a lot of other multinationals pulled out of India during tough times, we never did. We stayed there and we kept working away at it, and it's paid off. We have a great team in India.
Kari Yuers [00:13:24]:
We're manufacturing there. I think one of the big projects we just did was the parliament buildings in New Delhi. I mean, these are. It's really nice wins, but it doesn't happen overnight. You know, it took a, you know, a few decades to get to a point where you have the explosive growth and people start to realize that there's a better way to build with teams that really want the long term sustainable result.
Kushal Kakkar [00:13:48]:
I have to admit that I'm a little bit envious of having the space where you could perhaps afford to have a more long term vision and strategy and goals. I think most companies do set out to do that, no matter who sets them up and why. But in a lot of cases, I think, as you correctly said, its difficult to sort of get buy in for doing things for the much longer term and the longer vision. And you have to be okay with periods of perhaps slow growth or stigma and growth or any of those things because you believe that there is a better future ahead for the business overall. So I think theres so much to be said for that and that makes so much sense overall. You also, of course, talked about Kryton build mat, which is the company in India, of course. And I see some of this journey, some of it myself as well. Right.
Kushal Kakkar [00:14:39]:
And that's, you know, for the listeners, that's how Kari and I know each other, right through our families doing business together in India. So I'm incredibly grateful to have seen some of that being built up or being done. Just curious what, you know, made you folks consider India in the first place. And I think this would be useful because it would be an interesting lens for other business owners to have around how to scout for the right opportunities. So if you could tell us a little bit more about crack and bird and India and the journey here, that would be helpful.
Kari Yuers [00:15:11]:
I think that a lot of the international interest and the growth was really part of my father Ron's vision. He always saw himself as a fellow that would travel the world and help grow product technology internationally. And so he gets all the credit for originally saying, hey, I'm going to India, I'm going to find a great partner. And yes, the family has just been wonderful over the decades. Your family is our extended family. But it's, I think when you're looking abroad, you're looking for opportunity in terms of growth. But I think it always boils down to getting the right people, like having the right partners. And even initially, when Mister Kakar and Ron were working together, they brought on a very large partner to be part of it and, and that really didn't work well.
Kari Yuers [00:16:15]:
And so in the end, we bought out the partner shares and Mister Carkar took over as the managing director and we never looked back. It was just, you know, working with Mister Kakar and the family was just wonderful. But, you know, it's when you're looking abroad like we're in Middle east and we're in Asia and we're in Europe and we're in Africa. I mean we're kind of wed almost say were in too many places. But I think when we look at those places we look at who are the potential partners that have passion for durability, that see growth in their markets, have a presence there and can help grow. And thats really where we partner with distribution partners in market to represent us in the local area. Like we're right there and then we have our territory managers and regional managers in market to support them, help with specifications, help them with relationships with government and developers and owners that want to build for the future. So these are, we're typically in that space of people care about durability or sustainability.
Kari Yuers [00:17:32]:
They want to reduce their carbon footprint, they want to have things last. They recognize that if you spend the money wisely at the front end you'll end up with a lot of savings if you retain and manage your buildings or track your maintenance costs. I think that's when we look at the world, we look at it as what are the green zones? What are the places that have economic growth and building that care about durability or have conditions like in the Middle east. There's some very difficult conditions in terms of sulfates and corrosion. We're seeing aggregates that react and expand and create durability problems. And we have recent five year testing at the universities to show that we can actually mitigate some of these most detrimental effects that other products just can't do. So I think that's when we're looking at the world crucial work, we're saying, well, where can we see growth potential where we can work with people? But it always comes down to trying to find the right partners. And that's I think one of the most difficult things that again, almost any company has is who do you partner with? And that's not just in terms of customers and who you're going to sell with or to, but it's also suppliers.
Kari Yuers [00:19:00]:
And you know, over the years those were also my early learnings. The suppliers in the nineties that helped me grow weren't just, you know, I remember one of our suppliers back in the day and I was trying to get some bags of certain raw material that he said oh well you're on cod so you gotta pay cash first before we can give you your, you know, it's like two bags or something like that. And I was like, okay, I will, but you know, I'm gonna be big one day and I'm gonna, you know, the people who help me are the ones that are gonna get the benefit of that. So skip forward, you know, a few years later, and we're now buying that same raw material in truckload quantities. And I'm working with a guy named Rick who basically said, Kari, I got your back. I'll help you grow. And my ask of him was always, give me the very, very best pricing. I know my volume.
Kari Yuers [00:20:01]:
A lot of times it's based on volume. I said, just give me the left hand call because I don't have time to shop. I'm trying to generate revenue. I'm trying to get products made. I'm trying to make deals worldwide. I don't have time to shop for ten cents a kilo this way or that way. I need the best pricing. And so he did that for me.
Kari Yuers [00:20:20]:
And so when, when this other supplier came back and now that I'm buying truckloads, he says, well, I can give you, you know, I can give you credit. I can give you this. I can give you even a better price than those guys. And I'm like, yeah, you know what? I'm good. And I think that that's working with people that you trust that have your best interests, that work with you. The interests have to be aligned and mutual. It can't be unfair on one side or the other. We have to work together.
Kari Yuers [00:20:46]:
And I think that's the basis for making sure that when you're going internationally, you're being picky about who you're partnering with because it's already challenging to export and to go to new regions. You don't need to layer on more difficulties by having untrustworthy people or people who are always trying to, you know, do something that is not fair or equitable for the relationship. So, yeah, I think that's kind of a little bit of the learnings I had. And, of course, you don't learn those without having those disasters and challenges. You know, I often like to talk about China because we did it, you know, like everybody in the nineties, we had to do a joint venture. You had no choice. You couldn't go in and do your own thing. But, you know, if you read any of the books on what goes wrong with a joint venture, pretty much everything happened to us.
Kari Yuers [00:21:50]:
So, you know, but, you know, we're still there. We have our own dedicated office sales, office salespeople. We, we've been able to grow our business there, and we're very proud of, of our journey, even though, you know, I had to learn some tough lessons along the way.
Kushal Kakkar [00:22:11]:
Yeah, I think there's so many powerful threads of wisdom really right in what you just shared with us. And those are really lessons across people choosing the right people, building up that trust, being in the right place, finding the right opportunities, and then being brave enough to sort of jump into those. And like you said, this is in the face of, you know, regulations around export or any of those factors as well. Right. And the world was slightly different from what it is perhaps today. Perhaps some of these things are easier to navigate now with the world being more digital and online. But that certainly wasn't the case perhaps a couple of decades ago, which is when a lot of this, probably the seeds at least, were sown. I think there's a lot, just wisdom that you've sort of summed up for us just to follow up on a few things there.
Kushal Kakkar [00:22:59]:
You, of course, spoke about sustainability and finding a India or a lot of other geographies, for instance, have that focus or that's an important metric for a lot of businesses. And sustainability and sustainable living are clearly a passion of yours. I remember reading somewhere about how recycling is important, is so important to you as well as a person. What can entrepreneurs really do to make sustainability a part of their businesses in practice? We'd love to hear that.
Kari Yuers [00:23:28]:
Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's so many companies that are doing wonderful things, and I'm still always learning from what other people are doing. And I love to hear stories about what companies are doing to drive a sustainable mandate, if you will. But I think it's just the little things. It's like we all share the same planet and so everything that we can do can help with preserving our planet, planet, keeping biodiversity, trying to keep the trees, to keep the air clean, limit these climate change events, which we're seeing everywhere in the world. Rain happening where it didn't happen before and everything else. But I come back down to little things that the cultural things you can do around an organization. So just having a mindset of waste and reuse and recycling in British Columbia, in Vancouver, where I'm at, has been decades in place.
Kari Yuers [00:24:37]:
So there is never a bottle or recyclable can or anything that doesn't. It never goes in the garbage can. We have bins, we have a very sophisticated system for sorting out stuff and, you know, it all gets reused, so very little hits the landfill. But even just, you know, single use coffee cups, this is something, you know, you go to the coffee cafe and you get a quick coffee with a cup and a plastic lid and, but those aren't recyclable, so they go into the landfill. And so I'm usually advocating around the board table or meetings and I go to technical meetings like have your reusable cup because then you're not having paper cups hit the landfill and it keeps your coffee a lot longer. Or tea in my case. But those are just little things that I think if the leaders are doing it and people see leaders doing it and seeing that these little things can make a difference, then it's easier to get to the bigger things. Right? I mean, the big things are top.
Kari Yuers [00:25:41]:
We kind of rely on governments to do it for us and that, but I think that if everybody took a little step to help create sustainability and that's, you know, even just limiting, you know, how many new pieces of clothing do I need to buy? You know, I know clothing can be is, you know, a lot of clothing can get lesser and less expensive with, you know, more advanced manufacturing and other things. But, but, you know, can we might be mindful around, you know, use and reuse. I just bought some baby clothes for a friend and I bought them in Montana. And in Montana we ended up in this little town and they up, what are they called? Upcycle clothing. So they take clothing and then they cut little bits and pieces out and they make, you know, new baby clothes out of, out of old fabrics. And I love that. I'm like, yes, I'll buy these because, you know, they're soft, they're great, they're, you know, but it's less things that end up in the landfill. And, you know, I think that, you know, whether it's being cognizant of, you know, you know, environmental, but it's also sustainability is about making sure people are getting a living wage and that, you know, things are being, you know, we're helping everybody live a better life, get what they need, but not waste things, not, not have a negative impact on our mother earth.
Kari Yuers [00:27:14]:
So, you know, I'm not fanatical about it, even though I sound like it right now, but I think that if we just be just pragmatic over just some of the things we can do, and I'm by no means perfect. I mean, I still drive a car that has gasoline. It's not electric yet, but I'm working on it.
Kushal Kakkar [00:27:32]:
Right.
Kari Yuers [00:27:32]:
And I think that if we have a mind to what's next, what is the next thing I can do that is just a little more sustainable, then I think that we can share that with our friends and our family and challenge people to do something maybe a little differently. I think that's powerful in the whole scheme of things. Not everybody's going to build a sustainable complex or building using our Kim admixture to make it durable and last a lot longer. Or crate and hard SEM abrasion resistant material that reduces your cement content and saves carbon. I mean, some people are doing that. Actually, a lot of people are doing that in the world that are in the building industry. But for all the people not in the building industry, you can affect sustainability by just simply doing a few things different than you've been doing them over the past period.
Kushal Kakkar [00:28:23]:
I love that focus really on looking at what is really in our control when it comes to sustainable living and thinking of the small things that each of us could really be doing differently. Like you mentioned, picking up clothes that perhaps could be thrifted or upcycled or just any of those activities could really impact it. Small, but then in more sustainable ways over time. Slightly different note. People is clearly something that you care about a lot, Kari. And it's something you talk about a lot, you know, both in our conversation so far, in what I've read online as well, and in what I know of you as well. Right. Culture and people are clearly important to you.
Kushal Kakkar [00:29:05]:
And Kryton itself seems to have a very vibrant culture. Especially, I think I was looking at the, your 30 year anniversary video, and that was clearly a montage of all of the folks across geography is really sort of wishing you so. Clearly, that is an important thing at Kryton ride. Could you perhaps just explain to us what culture means to you and how do you really keep it living?
Kari Yuers [00:29:30]:
That's a great question, Kushal. I'm so grateful that I have so many people that care about me and wish me well. But I think that building an environment where people want to work hard, want to play hard, that they care and look after one another, I think you have to be able to earn trust and earn the opportunity to be able to do more things. And I think that comes with every day of trying to be a good example, trying to, you know, ensure that you recognize that people come with all sorts of challenges from, you know, all over the world. We have a very multicultural company and so we have people from, you know, at one point we had like 25 languages spoken here and it's kind of fun. You know, we get to learn about other people's cultures and where they came from. But I think being open to learning, like we, we put the, the national flag for everybody's home culture out on our building for a few days. And we share the story about the national holiday and what it meant and the history so that people can appreciate where maybe somebody else came from.
Kari Yuers [00:30:56]:
You know, we just celebrated the mexican national holiday, National Day, and so their flag is out there along with the crate of flag and the canadian flag. But I think that it's just that engagement. We care, and we care about learning about people, but it doesn't hurt that we took everybody on an all expense paid trip to Puerto Vallarta in April. That was a reward for making our budget, and everybody did a great job. And so we took globally, we brought people in from China and overseas, and then we all went down to Puerto Vallarta at a five star resort, all inclusive resort, and had a great time with no meetings, no business. It was just, let's go have some fun. And we had one dinner as one big dinner together. But otherwise, everybody could just do whatever they wanted.
Kari Yuers [00:31:57]:
And I think that helps people feel appreciated, but also they got to spend time with people they normally might not spend time with. So, you know, because we're in different departments and, you know, the plant guys are in the plant, and the research and development people are in the R and D center. And so this allows people to mingle and get to know each other in a more meaningful way. And so, yeah, that was a lot of fun, but I think it's a balance, you know, the fun things, but also things that, you know, are aligned with people's values in the serving the community, helping the team. I think we have one of the best onboarding programs. And so I constantly hear from new staff that it's like the best they've ever seen. But that's because we have staff that are like, take it really seriously. They want to have people join a company and really feel like they're valued and that we've invested in them so that they're going to be highly successful.
Kari Yuers [00:32:56]:
And I think that attitude really makes a difference to how people feel in the company, especially when you're new. And I think everybody has that feeling where they joined a company. Maybe you were just handed a binder and said, good luck. But we really try to make it a different experience so that when you're the most nervous, you're the most vulnerable, you're feeling supported. And our statistics are, if you stay a year at Kryton, you know, we're just celebrating. We have 220 year anniversaries coming up, and if you stay a year, you'll probably stay a long time. And so we really work hard to make sure that first year is a positive one.
Kushal Kakkar [00:33:36]:
I love all of that, Kari. I think especially the line around here's a binder and go do your job. And not doing that, I think really resonates as someone who leads on people teams, I think it's so important to make sure that our teams get the right experience, you know? And I think that the teams that really celebrate together and also, you know, get to know each other are also the teams that want to do tough, difficult things. Right. Because that's what average day at work. It's not always easy and pretty, you know, sometimes it's messy and challenging. But I think the teams that get a balance of both of those pieces are able to, you know, live better and perform much better over time. Here's one of my last few questions for you, Gary.
Kushal Kakkar [00:34:17]:
What's perhaps been the most difficult lesson of your entrepreneurial career so far for you?
Kari Yuers [00:34:26]:
I mean, there's a lot of tough lessons. I think I'm still learning lots of lessons. What's the most tough? Let me see if I can take a shot at that. I think it's one of the toughest lessons was learning. Learning that to learn, you had to learn a lot about yourself, that improving the company was kind of, you had to kind of look back at the mirror and say, what am I going to do to learn more and be better, be a better leader, to be a better listener, to not think everybody looks at the world the way I look at the world. That was always a tough lesson because I have a point of view and I think, well, certainly other people should be able to see that but not realizing that people come with all sorts of different experiences and points of view and it's all valuable and that you need to really suspend your own judgment and try to listen and learn. And so I think that's the work in progress is always working on yourself because it's easy to get lazy and think, well, I already know this or I know that, you know, I'm good, but I think the hard work is always being open to feedback and sinking it out. Not just, I mean, I'm the president's CEO.
Kari Yuers [00:35:44]:
Nobody's walking up to me in the hall saying, hey, Kari, you know what? You suck at this, this week doesn't usually happen, but I think it's trying to create environments where you can get feedback and to be around other peers. So I still attend peer mentoring groups with other leaders, CEO's and, and they know where my barnacles are, and they'll push me to look at things differently. It's uncomfortable. I mean, nobody asks for feedback and says, yeah, bring it on. I love this. I mean, that's really the attitude that you have to have. But it's not easy to hear constructive criticism. Right? Nobody likes to hear a performance review where you're not getting a pluses.
Kari Yuers [00:36:32]:
But I think it's the most important thing to embrace is, is how do I, how will I know if I don't ask? And then what am I going to do with that information so that it's, people don't just give up to, well, she's a lost cause. So, yeah, I think those are. I think the toughest things is because you can do anything. You can build and buy new businesses you can be in. I'm sure these days people have careers in totally different industries and all sorts of different things. It's not about just being a subject matter expert anymore. It's about how do you bring value to a company? You know, how do you, how do you work with others to exponentially grow value? And I think that when you do that, you're valuable. And so my job now is to try to not be irrelevant.
Kushal Kakkar [00:37:28]:
Hi. I love that you talked about, you know, having that attitude of constantly learning, pushing yourselves, um, getting coaching, you know, sort of working on becoming a better version of yourself every day. And, you know, funnily enough, it's going to be performance review season for us at my company. So I think I will keep those words, you know, in mind as I evaluate myself, you know, among other things, and, you know, sort of have that learner's mindset on at all times and try and get better. And that sort of leads me to my last question, really. I have a feeling that you probably say, you know, you are, you probably don't have any regrets and you're doing everything you ever set out to. But I'm curious, if you had to do it all and over again, what would you do differently, if anything?
Kari Yuers [00:38:13]:
Yes. I mean, I don't have any regrets, per se. You're right. I feel like I've, over my life and my career, I've done a lot of things, and I'm very proud of being active at having fun, but also getting things done. But I think if there was something that I look back and say, what would I tell my younger self? I think what I would tell my younger self is, you can do it faster, you know, don't agonize. I think, I don't know if it's a style thing where, or I don't like to go to gender, but I think that, you know, women want to get the things in the pins in a row I've coached or encouraged women to take action faster, and it's, well, I have to do this first. It's all very linear and in order, and, you know, I have to make sure I check all the boxes before I move on. And as much as I push for that to not happen when I'm coaching or helping people in both genders these days, you know, I do find when I look back at myself, oh, it's easy for me to coach or preach on these things.
Kari Yuers [00:39:20]:
Is it? Because that was my Achilles heel, too. I don't think I leveraged my network. I was building a network. I was reluctant to ask for help. And I think that women won't ask for help as much as my male counterparts who were quite happy to go and ask for help and support or for somebody to do something for them. And I think that's, I'm always kind of balancing, is this gender or is this really just style? You know, what, what is, what is this? And. But I think that acting quicker, making decisions faster, taking action, willing to fail faster, I think that that is certainly something that in research and development, if you're developing something, you want to, you want to, you want to, you want to celebrate the fail, right? And I think that's, you know, R and D is about, hey, let's try a whole bunch of things. And the more fails, the more we, we can identify what's working or what not to try anymore.
Kari Yuers [00:40:18]:
And I think that business can be like that if you can, you know, we obviously can't fail to the point where you go broke every few months. But I think that the idea of, you know, some fails of failures are not going to be devastating, but you can learn from them and then build and make new decisions. So it's making decisions, if they're not great decisions, make a new one, just, just keep making them. And I think that's where organizations can get paralysis by analysis or just take way too long because they're trying to get way too much information. It's like, get enough, get 60% and move forward. I think that's, when I look back over my career, I think I could have done that even faster. But, I mean, we're in a good place.
Kushal Kakkar [00:41:07]:
So that felt really personal for some reason. It felt like a lot of. I could learn a lot, you know, just around those spaces of, you know, asking for help, moving faster, you know, taking more calculated risks. And you're right, I think there could be potentially a, you know, a gender component, you know, to some of those things, but indeed, you know, you will find human nature across genders, you know, um, to have a lot of variances and a lot of commonalities as well. And I think the points that you mentioned are really key for anyone. And, you know, in the conversations we've been having, you know, over the course of the podcast with a lot of, you know, amazing CEO's and founders like yourselves, the topic of, you know, moving fast and, you know, making mistakes comes up a lot. Right. Just the importance of doing that and doing that's fast.
Kushal Kakkar [00:41:56]:
So, yeah, so I think that's definitely something.
Kari Yuers [00:41:58]:
And I think it's interesting that the thread to, you know, I mentioned earlier, relationships and trust, building trust, earning trust, right. It's not building, it's earning trust. But trust is kind of a thread for taking risk because taking risk is really kind of putting yourself into the unknown, but, you know, feeling it's the right thing to do or knowing that there's a, you know, there's going to be a net. And I think that thread of trusting yourself and trusting others can be really powerful around the risks that we all endure. Risks of running businesses, risks of investing risks. But it's about earning and developing trust and being able to throw yourself out there. I kind of wish I had known all that 30 years ago. I think it would have been maybe a little easier, but who knows? Maybe it's one thing knowing, it's another thing doing.
Kushal Kakkar [00:42:58]:
But yeah, this could probably be a chapter in your book. You know what I would tell my 20 year old self, right. This would probably be one of those chapters on that book that you could tell yourself. And from what you were saying, it clearly seems like in a lot of ways, running a business is an act of faith, right? In a lot of ways where you have faith in your teams and your people, in experiments that you run in with decisions that you make, right? Otherwise, you're right, you won't be able to make enough progress. And the very foundation of business is built on the fact that you're willing to take a risk and build something from the ground up. So I think those are valuable lessons, really, for anyone who's listening. And I know that I've really learned an incredible amount from this episode. Thank you so much, Kari, for your time with us today.
Kushal Kakkar [00:43:43]:
Really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Kari Yuers [00:43:45]:
Thanks, Kushal. It's a pleasure to be here with you and looking forward to seeing you soon in India. So I can't wait.
Kushal Kakkar [00:43:55]:
Thank you for listening to The Business OS. If you're looking for more resources on how to navigate growth, please go to justcall.IO/thebusinessos. And don't forget the journey is easier when you have a Business OS.